‘Dinner with King Tut’ follows experimental archaeologists as they recreate the past

Summary

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NPR’s Book of the Day: ‘Dinner with King Tut’ — Exploring the Past Through Experimental Archaeology

Episode Date: August 26, 2025
Host: Andrew Limbong
Guest: Sam Kean, author of Dinner with King Tut
Interviewed by: Ayesha Rascoe

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Episode Overview

This episode highlights Sam Kean’s new book, Dinner with King Tut, which delves into the fascinating world of experimental archaeology—a branch of archaeology where researchers attempt to re-create the experiences, challenges, and daily lives of ancient people by living as they did. The conversation explores the appeal and limitations of learning history by “doing,” the insights gained from firsthand engagement, and the tensions between experimental practitioners and traditional academics. Kean also reflects on the storytelling techniques he used to weave together research and imagined narratives, and the enduring mysteries that keep archaeologists searching.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Limits of Reading and the Power of Doing

• Andrew Limbong opens: “Do not get mad at me for saying this, but there are limits to what you can learn from reading… Doing is the better way to learn. And doing is what Sam Kean’s new book is all about.” [00:02]
• Experimental archaeology goes beyond text and artifacts—by embodying ancient practices, practitioners can experience history’s sounds, smells, and challenges directly.

Living the Past: Eating, Crafting, and Surviving

• Sam Kean recounts: sampling foods like caterpillars, walrus, acorn bread (“which did not turn out well when I made it”), and describes how knowledgeable teachers transform the experience:

  “I was amazed, first of all, by just the sheer variety of things that people were eating thousands of years ago and also just how delicious some of it was... you don't get the sounds, you don't get the smells, you don't get the tastes the way you do in experimental archeology.” —Sam Kean [02:40]

• Insights into ancient weapon- and tool-making:
  • Flint “napping” for weapons and stone tools
  • Crafting poisons
• Grueling traditional tasks:
  • “I brain tanned some leather. So you take a hide and you mix the brains in, essentially, to treat the hide and turn it into… clothing for yourself, that's just what you would have had to do in that time.” —Sam Kean [03:28–03:59]
  • “It was a little squishy... My shoulders are pretty sore. The flies had a field day…” —Sam Kean [03:59]

Blending Fact and Fiction: Deepening Empathy

• The book’s structure features each civilization as a chapter, mixing:
  • Kean’s own experiences
  • Historical research
  • Short stories with fictionalized characters to vividly imagine the past

  “To really get deep down into the character, I realized that fiction would be a better way to do that. So everything that happens to this person, to the main character, could and would have happened to people at the time.” —Sam Kean [04:48]

• Kean is candid about the harshness of ancient life:
  • “The past was a rough place.” —Sam Kean [05:23]

Ancient Egypt & Pyramid Mysteries

• Discussion of the enduring puzzle: constructing the pyramids without modern tools or even wheels.
• Story of Roger Larson, a Mississippi carpenter experimenting with practical methods:
  • Traditional ramp-and-roller theories seem unworkable
  • Larson’s pyramid machine uses A-frames, winches, and ropes—showing how blocks might be lifted efficiently

  “He and some friends got together and they were essentially using this machine to drag these blocks that weighed thousands of pounds up a slope in the quarry to show that this might have been a way that they could have gotten blocks up the side of the pyramid.” —Sam Kean [07:01]

Experimental Archaeology vs. Academic Tradition

• Not all archaeologists support hands-on experimentation; skepticism persists:

  “There is a bit of a tension within the field... there’s a contingent... that kind of the whole idea of it is off, or that you can't really learn any true insights by running an experiment.” —Sam Kean [07:21]

  • Some skepticism is justified due to risks of inaccuracy and poor methods.
• Role of indigenous and native communities:

  “...to them, this isn't, you know, archeology. This is actually their ancestry... they're actually correcting [archaeologists] and ...showing them how their ancestors lived and sort of bringing their knowledge to bear on this.” —Sam Kean [08:16]

Enduring Mysteries and Next Frontiers

• Kean’s fascination with “quipus,” the knot-based record-keeping system of the Incas:

  “They actually recorded information on knotted strings. So they would tie a knot into the string to encode information... there's a swath of them that we just don't know how to read.” —Sam Kean [08:54]

• Even with reconstruction and experimentation, history still holds countless secrets.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Archeology in general does a very good job of what the past looks like... But you don't get the sounds, you don't get the smells, you don't get the tastes the way you do in experimental archeology.” —Sam Kean [02:40]
• “One thing that page after page of the book drove home was just how hard it was sometimes to do basic things like get a meal.” —Sam Kean [03:28]
• “The ramps that you would have had to build to get to the very top of the pyramids... ends up being something like two or three times the volume of the pyramid itself. It seems impossible...” —Sam Kean [06:34]
• “In a lot of cases, this is, you know, academics, professional archaeologists doing this work. But one really... interesting aspect of this field is that you have a lot of, you know, indigenous communities, native communities, who to them, this isn't, you know, archeology. This is actually their ancestry.” —Sam Kean [08:02]
• “I actually just wrote a story recently about something they're called the quipus, which are a language maybe that the Inca used in Peru... there's a swath of them that we just don't know how to read...” —Sam Kean [08:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:02 — Introduction: The limits of learning by reading, experimental archaeology explained
• 02:09 — Sam Kean on immersive, edible, and practical adventures in the past
• 03:28 — Uncovering the difficulty and mess of ancient crafts
• 04:16 — The hybrid format: Mix of research, memoir, and fiction
• 05:26 — Ancient Egypt: Unraveling the pyramid-building mystery
• 07:21 — Tension between experimentalists and professional/academic archaeology
• 08:50 — The Inca quipus and the allure of ancient unresolved mysteries

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Conclusion

Dinner with King Tut uses experimental archaeology not only to crack academic mysteries, but to humanize and vividly recapture the sounds, tastes, smells, and lived experience of lost civilizations. Sam Kean’s narrative blends direct immersion, collaborative practice with indigenous knowledge holders, and creative storytelling to bring the reader—and, by extension, the listener—a step closer to understanding how ancient people survived, struggled, and thrived.

For anyone fascinated by history’s hidden corners, Kean’s work and this discussion offer a unique window into the power and pitfalls of seeing the past through hands-on experimentation.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Okay, do not get mad at me for saying this, but there are limits to what you can learn from reading. There's only so much information that you can glean from words at a certain point. Doing is the better way to learn. And doing is what Sam Kean's new book is all about. It's a nonfiction book titled Dinner with King Tut, which is a look inside experimental archaeology, a faction within archaeology that tries to learn more about old civilizations by living like them, working like them, dressing like them, eating like them. And Keane talks to NPR's Aisha Rascoe about the tension between experimental archaeology and the academics. More on this beef after the break.

[B]

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[C]

Some people just love history in any form, and the dustier the book, the better. But what if instead of just reading about ancient cultures, you learn by doing, like, hanging out watching medieval catapults miss and hit their targets, or maybe snuggling down on a bed of ashes and grass like they made 200,000 years ago? Maybe you could help solve some mysteries about how people lived. It's not reenacting its experimental archaeology, and it's the focus of Sam Kean's new book, Dinner with King Tutorial, How Rogue Archaeologists are recreating the sights, sounds, smells and tastes of lost civilizations. Sam Keene joins me now. Welcome to the program.

[D]

Hi. Thanks for having me.

[C]

So you didn't actually sleep in a bed of ash. You talked to someone who did. But you did eat, like, ostrich eggs and deer jerky and South American guinea pigs and bugs. You ate a lot of stuff.

[D]

I had a lot of bugs. I had caterpillars. I had walrus. I made acorn bread, which did not turn out well when I made it. But then I talked to someone who knew what they were doing and it turned out amazing.

[C]

And what did you learn about these civilizations from eating all of these different foods?

[D]

I was amazed, first of all, by the just the sheer variety of things that people were eating thousands of years ago and also just how delicious some of it was. I think archeology in general does a Very good job of what the past looks like. So they can say, okay, we had a site here, there was a wall here, buildings here, there's where the trash pile was, stuff like that. But you don't get the sounds, you don't get the smells, you don't get the tastes the way you do in experimental archeology.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, because you learned about making weapons. I guess it's called napping, but like. Like kind of breaking the stones and making the tips. And you also learned about making poisons. I mean, by doing this, you kind of get to see how hard it was and how much precision it took. Right. To do all of this stuff.

[D]

Yeah. That's one thing that page after page of the book drove home was just how hard it was sometimes to do basic things like get a meal. One of the more tedious things that I had to do was I brain tanned some leather. So you take a hide and you mix the brains in, essentially, to treat the hide and turn it into.

[C]

You're saying the brains of the animal? Just to be clear.

[D]

The brains in the skull.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

The brains of the animal.

[C]

Yes. You would use that to tan the animal, which sounds very gross.

[D]

It was a little squishy. Yeah. You kind of use your hands. You just gotta massage it in there. Really work it in there. My shoulders are pretty sore. The flies had a field day. But again, if you needed a piece of leather, you know, needed to make clothing for yourself, that's just what you would have had to do in that time.

[C]

You know, the way you set up this is, like, really fascinating, because what I. I was so drawn into it once I realized what you were doing. Because each civilization that you catalog is its own chapter. But you mix your experiences, your research, and then you have these short stories that you've written. These characters have, you know, love, family. They have all these issues that they're trying to deal with. How big a lift was this for you as a writer?

[D]

So the premise of the book is you are immersed in a specific day at a specific point in history, at a specific spot on the globe. And I could do that somewhat with the experimental archeology. But to really get deep down into the character, I realized that fiction would be a better way to do that. So everything that happens to this person, to the main character, could and would have happened to people at the time.

[C]

And lots of your characters, they don't meet good ends.

[D]

Some of them have happy endings.

[C]

Some of them do, yeah. Some of them do have happy endings. Yeah.

[D]

I mean, the past was a rough place.

[C]

Well, I mean, in your chapter on ancient Egypt, which of course we should talk about a little bit, because the title of the book is Dinner with King Tut, there is still this big mystery about how the pyramids were constructed. You met up with Roger Larson, a carpenter in Mississippi who's been experimenting and thinks he has a solution or a possible solution. Talk to me about how he thinks the pyramids were made, because basically they would have had to lay these massive blocks. They don't have wheels, and they would have had to lay them, like one every five minutes for 20 years, which is insane to me.

[D]

So sort of the classic theory has always been that they used ramps to build them. So they just built a big dirt ramp, and they would push the blocks up them on maybe log roller. But experiments have shown that log rollers, you know, however good they look on paper, really do not work well in real life, especially if you're trying to push something up a ramp. And Larson, his point is that the ramps that you would have had to build to get to the very top of the pyramids, the volume of material you need to build one of those ramps ends up being something like two or three times the volume of the pyramid itself. It seems impossible to do given the short timeframes that we had. He took me out to a quarry and he had built what he called his pyramid machine. It was essentially two big A frames with big lever arms. There was a series of winches and ropes in the middle. And he and some friends got together and they were essentially using this machine to drag these blocks that weighed thousands of pounds up a slope in the quarry to show that this might have been a way that they could have gotten blocks up the side of the pyramid.

[C]

One thing your book gets into is that some archaeologists don't really like the experimental archaeologists.

[D]

Yeah, There is a bit of a tension within the field where I think there's sort of a contingent, especially among sort of academic, professional archaeologists, that kind of the whole idea of it is off, or that you can't really learn any true insights by running an experiment. There's some good reason for this skepticism in some cases, because you can do a bad job with some of these experimental archaeology projects. If you're not careful about what you're doing or, you know, you don't source the right materials, you can produce some misleading results. So there is some justified skepticism. One thing I think is an important point is that in a lot of cases, this is, you know, academics, professional archaeologists doing this work. But one Really, I think interesting aspect of this field is that you have a lot of, you know, indigenous communities, native communities, who to them, this isn't, you know, archeology. This is actually their ancestry. These are their own people's past. And in a lot of cases, they're the ones who are going to archaeologists, going to the professionals, and they're actually correcting them and they're actually showing them how their ancestors lived and sort of bringing their knowledge to bear on this.

[C]

After doing all of this with the book, like, what ancient mysteries still interest you? I mean, like, I'm rooting for aliens helping with the pyramids myself. But are there mysteries that still fascinate you that you'd want to look into?

[D]

Yeah, I think there are thousands of mysteries. I actually just wrote a story recently about something they're called the quipus, which are a language maybe that the Inca used in Peru. So instead of writing things down on paper, you know, papyrus or whatever, or chiseling something into stone, they actually recorded information on knotted strings. So they would tie a knot into the string to encode information. And we know how to read some of them. Archaeologists, anthropologists know how to read some of them, but there's a swath of them that we just don't know how to read these things. And so that's a I think that'd be a fascinating mystery to sort of get at this lost language of the Inca empire.

[C]

That's Sam Kean. He's the author of the new book Dinner with King Tut. Thank you so much for talking with us today.

[D]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

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[E]

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[B]

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