John Himmelman, Reginald Dwayne Betts take a populist approach to poetry in new books

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Populist Approaches to Poetry with John Himmelman and Reginald Dwayne Betts

Episode Overview

In the March 28, 2025, episode of NPR's Book of the Day, host Andrew Limbong delves into the world of contemporary poetry through the lens of two distinct voices: John Himmelman and Reginald Dwayne Betts. Both poets adopt a populist approach, making poetry accessible and relatable to a broader audience. This episode offers insightful conversations with each author, highlighting their unique perspectives, creative processes, and the underlying themes in their latest works.

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John Himmelman: "The Boy Who Lived in a Shell. Snippets for Wandering Minds"

Connecting with Young Minds

John Himmelman's poetry collection, "The Boy Who Lived in a Shell. Snippets for Wandering Minds," is designed primarily for children but resonates with audiences of all ages. The poems are narrated from the perspective of Ivo, a boy residing in a moon snail shell. Himmelman emphasizes the importance of brevity and emotional connection in his work.

"I wanted to tell some stories in as few words as possible for people with wandering minds, and I needed a way to connect them. And Ivo was the way to do that." (02:50)

Creative Techniques and Emotional Authenticity

Himmelman's approach to writing centers on evoking genuine emotions. He writes to make himself laugh or feel sad, hoping these emotions translate to his readers. This authenticity stems from his vivid childhood memories and experiences, which he seamlessly incorporates into his poetry.

"I write to make myself laugh. I write to make myself sad. And I just hope that translates to other people, other children." (07:15)

Illustrations and Storytelling

The collaboration between Himmelman and his illustrator brings Ivo's adventures to life. Each poem is complemented by charming illustrations that enhance the storytelling without overshadowing the brevity of the text. Himmelman shares excerpts from his work, such as "The Rumple Twins," highlighting his ability to convey complex emotions and narratives with minimal words.

"You don't need a lot of words for a surprise ending. The illustrations of a giant tree, a couple of tiny twins, seem to be happily situated on a branch high above the ground." (03:32)

Inspiration and Evolution

Himmelman's journey as an author began during his time working in the children's book section of the Comac library in Long Island, New York. Influenced by classics like Arnold Lobel's "Frog and Toad" series, Himmelman sought to combine his interests in words and pictures. His education at the School of Visual Arts further honed his skills, enabling him to bring his characters and stories to fruition.

"I was working in the children's book section, putting away all these classics like Mercer Mayer's book and Maurice Sendak, of course. And my favorite was Arnold Lobel and his Frog and Toad series that just inspired me." (05:08)

Final Thoughts on Himmelman's Work

Himmelman's stories, though crafted for children, carry universal themes of joy, sadness, and the complexities of growing up. His ability to blend simplicity with depth makes his poetry a delightful read for both young minds and adults alike.

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Reginald Dwayne Betts: "Doggerel"

Reimagining Doggerel Poetry

Reginald Dwayne Betts introduces his latest poetry collection, "Doggerel," redefining the term traditionally associated with mediocre poetry. Betts asserts that doggerel serves a significant purpose, aiming to make poetry accessible and relatable.

"Doggerel isn't really just mediocre poetry. Poetry is meant to serve a purpose." (10:52)

Personal Narratives and Social Commentary

Drawing from his tumultuous past, including over eight years spent in prison for an armed carjacking committed at 16, Betts uses poetry as a medium for expression and healing. His experiences, both personal and societal, inform his work, allowing him to address themes of grief, love, and racial injustice.

The Role of Dogs in Betts' Poetry

A significant portion of "Doggerel" is inspired by Betts' relationship with his dog, Taylor. Acquiring a dog during the pandemic became a catalyst for new interpersonal connections and reflections on joy and companionship.

"Having an extra four feet changed my world... It was something here for you." (11:40)

Sharing Poetry in Daily Life

Betts actively engages with his community by sharing his poetry in everyday interactions. Whether reading his poems to strangers or using his canine companion as a bridge for conversation, he demonstrates poetry's power to connect and heal.

"I would read them poems. People in my community, people in my neighborhood... It was an invitation to have a conversation." (12:22)

A Touching Example: "Grief"

In a poignant moment, Betts shares his poem "Grief," which delves into the emotions surrounding loss. The poem narrates the story of Eazy, a small dog embodying the essence of grief and remembrance.

"Grief, the story of Eazy... The ways we grieve again and again... Nothing grows without weeping, not even joy." (13:52)

Addressing Racial Injustice through Personal Experience

Betts discusses his op-ed in the New York Times recounting an incident where police were called on him at a bike shop he frequented. Despite his credentials, including a Harvard and Yale education and a bar association membership, he faced unwarranted scrutiny. This experience underscores the systemic biases he seeks to highlight and challenge through his poetry.

"I knew that none of that was gonna. Was gonna solve the day, but I also knew that the burden was on me to prove that I deserved to be treated with some dignity." (15:23)

Overcoming Adversity and Finding Closure

Rather than allowing the negative encounter to diminish him, Betts chose to return to the bike shop to complete a purchase, symbolizing resilience and the refusal to let injustice dictate his actions.

"I went back to be like, I am not gonna double down on this notion that I need to treat you in a certain way because that's how you treated me." (16:10)

Final Reflections on "Doggerel"

Betts' collection "Doggerel" exemplifies how poetry can be both accessible and profound. By blending personal narratives with broader social issues, Betts invites readers to engage with poetry not as an elevated art form but as a tool for personal and communal connection.

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Conclusion

This episode of NPR's Book of the Day offers a compelling exploration of contemporary poetry through the works of John Himmelman and Reginald Dwayne Betts. Both poets demonstrate that poetry can be inclusive, emotionally resonant, and deeply impactful, irrespective of its intended audience. Himmelman's whimsical stories for wandering minds and Betts' socially conscious verses exemplify the diverse paths poetry can take to connect with readers from all walks of life.

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Notable Quotes

• John Himmelman (02:50): "I wanted to tell some stories in as few words as possible for people with wandering minds, and I needed a way to connect them. And Ivo was the way to do that."

• John Himmelman (07:15): "I write to make myself laugh. I write to make myself sad. And I just hope that translates to other people, other children."

• Reginald Dwayne Betts (10:52): "Doggerel isn't really just mediocre poetry. Poetry is meant to serve a purpose."

• Reginald Dwayne Betts (12:22): "I would read them poems. People in my community, people in my neighborhood... It was an invitation to have a conversation."

• Reginald Dwayne Betts (13:52): "Grief... Nothing grows without weeping, not even joy."

• Reginald Dwayne Betts (16:10): "I am not gonna double down on this notion that I need to treat you in a certain way because that's how you treated me."

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For More Information

To delve deeper into the works of John Himmelman and Reginald Dwayne Betts, consider exploring their poetry collections:

• John Himmelman: The Boy Who Lived in a Shell. Snippets for Wandering Minds
• Reginald Dwayne Betts: Doggerel

Stay updated with NPR's latest episodes and literary discussions by subscribing to their newsletter.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Today we've got two poetry books for you, and they both take a sort of populist approach to poetry. In a bit, the writer Reginald Dwayne Betts talks about his collection titled Doggerel, a term he defines as mediocre poetry, but it's a term he wears with pride. But first, John Himmelman's poetry collection, the Boy who Lived in a Snippets for Wandering Minds is technically written for kids, but I think anybody can enjoy them. They're all from the perspective of, well, you know, a boy who lives in a shell. And in this interview with npr, Scott Simon Himmelman talks about his techniques for connecting with kids, which is just writing to make himself laugh. That's ahead.

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[John Himmelman]

Illustrated story poems is told from the perspective of a boy who lived in a shell. His name is Evo, and he lived in an empty moon snail shell on a beach of sand until a wave carried him away. He now lives in an empty moon snail shell on the sea. He was scared at first, but he grew to love it. So, as the stories he wrote will show, Ivo's adventures are the work of John Himmelman. The author and illustrator now joins us from the studios of WWNPR in Hartford, Connecticut. His book the Boy who lived in a shell. Snippets for wandering minds. Thank you so much for being with us.

Oh, thank you for having me.

I guess children are the intended audience, but I sure liked it. How did Ivo come to you?

I wanted to tell some stories in as few words as possible for people with wandering minds, and I needed a way to connect them. And Ivo was the way to do that. He's the one who was telling the stories. And throughout the book, you're also learning a little bit about Ivo as he's getting older and older out in the sea in this shell.

Could I ask you to read one? The rumple twins.

Oh, sure. That's the first one in the story. The rumple twins lived in a tree. They ate there. They read there. They wept there. They slept there. They never, ever left that tree. Until one day. Nope, they're still up there.

You don't need a lot of words for a surprise ending. The illustrations of a giant tree, a couple of tiny twins, seem to be happily situated on a branch high above the ground. The stories come first. To you or the scene?

Both. It was mostly the mood, the feel of it. I mean, some of them are wry, as I've been told, and some are a little sad, because I think there's nothing wrong with a sad story here and there. And some of them are just silly. A lot of these, because they're so short, they're ideas I've had for longer books that just wouldn't work. And I got to plug in these characters that I might have come up with 20, 30 years ago, and I got to actually bring them to life in this book.

Let's continue with Ivo stories. Would you let me have the pleasure of reading penguin?

Oh, please do.

Penguin sat on a chunk of ice. He bobbed up and down in the southern sea. Room for me? Asked walrus. Um, okay, said penguin. Walrus climbed on, but he was too big. Lehigh sunk beneath them. Penguins stood on walrus. They bobbed up and down in the southern sea. And then the illustration is just one of the happiest you can ever imagine of a walrus. His hands tucked over his stomach as he floats, and the penguin seemingly quite happy on top of him.

I should have you read all my stories for me.

Oh, well, it would be an honor. I love them. So I've read that you. You worked in the library stacks, and that had an important contribution to literature. We'll put it that way.

Oh, yeah. I was in my last year at school of visual arts trying to figure out, all right, what am I going to do with four years of art school. And at the time I was working in the Comac library in Long Island, New York, and I was working in the children's book section, putting away all these classics like Mercer Mayers book and Maurice Sendak, of course. And my favorite was Arnold Lobel and his Frog and Toad series that just inspired me. Here's a way to combine words and pictures, both of which I was interested in. And I took a course in writing and illustrating children's books in my last year in college and I've been doing it since.

Can I get you to read Dolphin's story?

So Dolphin is a recurring character. Dolphin was the nicest creature in all the sea. He shared everything he had. Once he found a crayon, he balanced it on his nose. He gave the crayon to a boy. That boy wrote a story about dolphin. He liked his first sentence so much he made it his last two. He wanted everyone to know one thing about dolphin. What did the boy want them to know? Dolphin was the nicest creature in all the sea.

I love that story. And on the one hand you think, well, you know, that's all that needs to be said. But when somebody is the nicest creature in the sea, we should say it a lot, shouldn't we?

We should. And of course, it's a dolphin.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Yeah.

[John Himmelman]

Subtitle of your book Snippets for Wandering Minds. Why wandering?

I think there's attention span challenges these days with longer pieces, and I was speaking to that, you could pick it up and put it down at any time. If your mind's wandering, there's no pressure. And especially for kids that feel somewhat challenged by reading longer things, this gives it to them in smaller bites or snippets.

In all of your work, have you uncovered or developed something that's just really essential to reaching into a child's mind and heart?

What I do is I write to make myself laugh. I write to make myself sad. And I just hope that translates to other people, other children. And I think what I have is I have strong memories of how things affected me when I was a child. Different emotions. I remember happiness, I remember sadness. I remember excitement. And I don't think those change over the years. If I could touch that in my own stories and my own work, that hopefully that will relate to others. And I don't mind adults enjoying it as well. That's how I start. You know, I'm an adult, so I start writing from me.

Can I ask you to read or sing even from everything stinks oh, boy.

I am not gonna sing it. That's Crabby's story. So what happened was when Ebo sleeps, the stories don't come out, and it's the stories that keep his shell afloat. So Crab decided to come in and write some stories. And being a Crab, his stories are somewhat cr. So one of the stories he wrote is everything stinks. Sing along Time, sang the crab who sang Nothing goes right, everything's wrong, nothing is nice, blah, blah, blah. Everything stinks. Nothing's worth doing. You're all too smelly. Blah, blah, blah. And you're all too loud. Everything's boring. Sun's in my eyes, blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know how I would sing that.

Where's Ivo now?

I don't want to give away the ending. He's still telling stories, cranking away in a little moon snail shell on the sea.

John Himmelman, who has written the Boy who Lived in a Shell, Snippets for Wandering Minds, thank you so much for having your mind wander a little bit with ours. Thank you.

It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

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[Andrew Limbong]

Dwayne Betts says something interesting in this next interview about poetry serving a purpose and how we often don't let poetry serve its purpose because we think about it as this elevated thing as opposed to a way to express feeling and emotion, to connect with other people. And apparently another way to connect with other people get a dog. Here's NPR's Michelle Martin.

[Michelle Martin]

REGINALD Duane Betts has authored four collections of poetry and a memoir. He's also a lawyer and an educator. So his is a life in words, but his root to that life was a circuitous one. He spent more than eight years in prison for an armed carjacking committed when he was 16. He started writing in prison, including some of the poetry in this latest Collection. It's called Doggerel. And he's with us now to tell us more about it. Dwayne, good to talk with you again. Thanks so much for talking to us.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

It's my complete and absolute honor.

[Michelle Martin]

So remind us again of what the classic definition of doggerel is. And then, of course, you know, I'm going to ask you, what's yours?

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Yeah. So doggerel classically just means mediocre poetry. And I chose the name of doggerel because doggerel isn't really just mediocre poetry. Poetry is meant to serve a purpose. And sometimes we don't let poetry serve its purpose because we think that it has to be on some certain kind of level, and we define our audience. First, I wanted to write poems that said, this is for everybody, so if you looking for some laughter, it's something here for you. If you're looking for love, it's something here for you. But I also wanted to cleverly sneak the word dog into the title, because so many of these poems came out of my experience getting a dog during the pandemic and walking a dog and really seeing the world as a man who just, you know, had a new friend that was showing me things and revealing things to me that I just didn't pay attention to, including joy.

[Michelle Martin]

Just right up front, you say, it's, nah, just a black man writing poems about his dog and all the dogs he encounters on the street and how having an extra four feet changed his world, and then he falls in love.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Yo, it's funny, man. It's not even just that. I have a dog now. I have a dog now. And honestly, I think about dogs and I think about the relationship that they've allowed me to build with people. I mean, I've had the wildest things happen. I've had, like, white guys pull over on the side of the road. It's like, hey, I got two Jack Russell terriers. You know, I.

[Michelle Martin]

You have a Jack Russell terrier?

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Yeah.

[Michelle Martin]

That is like TV dog, you know, that dog.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

It literally is. And it's a dog that is obsessed with believing, truly believing, that it's smarter than you, probably is smarter than you.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, how did he come into your life?

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

It was the pandemic, and we were starving for life. And the idea to get a dog came from my ex. And I think she was right. You know, we needed an animal to give us a different sense of ourselves. And it did for the four of us. And me in particular, though, I think what it did was make me notice the relationships and interactions that I had with other people because of Taylor. I get up at, you know, early in the morning, 3, 4, 5, and I'm taking a walk, and I'm riding my bicycle. I begin to see that this was the dog owner's hour. And the people around me, because I began to notice them more for their dogs, they would, like, notice me. And I would read them poems. People in my community, people in my neighborhood, people in the elevator. If you had a dog, it was an invitation to have a conversation.

[Michelle Martin]

Wait, you would read them poems from Doggerl that were about dogs or just. Or really, that's kind of.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Let me tell you what I did to somebody. It was so aggressively rude. I had just met the person, and we did not know each other. And then they picked up the phone, and they were on a phone call. A friend of their dog had died. I said, oh, put me on speaker. He looked at me like, why do you think I'm gonna do that? I don't even know you. I just met you, Dwayne, five minutes ago. I said, I know. Put me on speaker. Why? I'm gonna read y'all a poem. What are you talking about, sir? He puts me on speaker. I read him Grief. They both gasp when I get to the end, and they like, thank you for that. But the thing is, I would have never done that if it was two people talking about the loss of a loved one.

[Michelle Martin]

The one that you read, would you read the one? Is it grief?

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Yeah, that was Grief. Grief, the story of Eazy. A small dog who I imagine is named after Mosley's detective, crawls into the space left by Zinnia, burrowing into corners against door frames beneath a house, in search of a phantom smell. State fair. Sahara. Thumbelina. Dreamland. Envy. Orange star. Creeping zinnias that bloom until first frost. My God, the ways we grieve again and again. Because the only rule of life is to forget. Means to abandon when I forget to feed Tay. She never barks, but waits wherever I am as if she trusts my memory more than I do. I imagine this is grief's lesson. It is the engine of making what happened before matter. And it's true that I've only ever remembered a few joys as much as I've recounted all my reasons to grieve. But nothing grows without weeping, not even joy.

[Michelle Martin]

Mm. Beautiful. I love that. Thank you so much. I gotta ask you about a piece that you recently published in the New York Times. An opinion piece about having the police called on you at A bike shop that you had patronized for years. And you just talked about just the. I don't even know how to describe it. I mean, the rage, the emotion that welled up on you and that even the police officer could see that you were getting emotional. Is that true?

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Well, my initial impulse was I was incredulous. I could not believe that I wasn't being allowed to complete a single sentence that would have alleviated the chaos. I got a Harvard identification on me, I got a Yale identification on me, and I got a bar card on me. But I know that I could say.

[Michelle Martin]

That signals that you're a member of the bar, the State bar, meaning that you are. You're a lawyer.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Right. And I knew that none of that was gonna. Was gonna solve the day, but I also knew that the burden was on me to prove that I deserved to be treated with some dignity.

[Michelle Martin]

What I took from the piece is that you were so deeply hurt and that you went back to the store and just to tie a bow on it, you actually did go back and buy a bike at the store.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Right. I felt like that's what I needed to do because I was going to suffer if I didn't. I don't know what happened to him this morning. I am not just going to assert a motivation for him, because I'm so tired of people asserting motivations for me. When I bought the bike, it was his daughter. I didn't know it was her daughter. She was the most lovely human being I had met. And he had already coded in a discount for me because I told him I was going to come back. And so I don't need to name what motivated what happened on the day I almost got arrested. I would like to name what motivated what happened every subsequent day after. And I like to believe one of the things that motivated his behavior was his recognition. Like, he kind of failed me as a human being. And I went back to be like, I am not gonna double down on this notion that I need to treat you in a certain way because that's how you treated me.

[Michelle Martin]

Hmm. That's Reginald Dwayne Betts. His latest collection of poems is called Doggerel. Thanks so much.

[Reginald Dwayne Betts]

Thank you.

[Andrew Limbong]

That's it for this week on NPR's Book of the Day. If you want more, you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter Books. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. The podcast is produced, produced by Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan. Our founding editor is Petra Maher. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Adam Beer and Adriana Gallardo Danny Hensel, Eddie McNulty, Samantha Balaban, Ryan Bank, Emiko Tamagawa, Todd Mundt, Elena Torick, Shannon Rhodes and Barry Gordimer. Yolanda Sanguini is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.

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