Mikhail Zegar (3:12)

We see now that the world today looks like not as if democrats had prevailed back in the 90s, but on the contrary. And today's Russian President, Vladimir Putin, shares the same rhetorics as the old hardcore conservatives used to have in the late years of the Soviet Union. So indeed Russia today looks like the country where the coup of 1991, the coup attempt against Gorbachev, had actually prevailed. And somehow the Western ideas, not the Western military forces, but the ideas democracy, became so popular and so fashionable, it was completely unacceptable to remain dictator, not only for old communist bosses, but for a lot of other former dictators. And now we see that we are living through the opposite trend. We see that liberal democracy seems to be like old and outdated and naive ideology and a lot of people seem not to believe in it.

Nick Spicer (4:20)

Why not?

Carvana Sponsor (4:21)

And where?

Mikhail Zegar (4:23)

I'm afraid there are a lot of people in the United States who don't really believe and quite a lot of people in Europe. I'm happy that we are talking to you a few days right after the election in Hungary. That shows us that it's still a complicated picture.

Nick Spicer (4:41)

And tell me, how does that inform the decisions that Vladimir Putin is taking in Russia and on the global stage?

Mikhail Zegar (4:48)

The worst thing that that happened to Vladimir Putin during the last years is that he realized he does not understand the new generations of Russians because they don't share his Soviet cultural codes. They less and less seem to worship the great empire. They are not that different from other people who were born and raised with iPhones in their pockets in Europe or in the West. So Putin needs to re educate all those people. He needs to bring Soviet Union back. He needs to bring Soviet values back. He needed to relaunch that repressive apparatus and the atmosphere of fear in the country. So I'm still convinced that this war in Ukraine is also the war for Russia. Not only for Ukraine, it's the war to make young Russians obey the dictator.

Nick Spicer (5:43)

So you know, from having read your book, it's fascinating read, fascinating look at Soviet history as seen from Moscow, from different points of the Soviet empire at the time. You've interviewed a lot of high level people. What is the sort of resonance for A Western reader. Now, somebody who picks up your book in the United States are there, you know, you're doing history. But it does have contemporary echoes. What is the sort of takeaway for somebody living in the here and now today?

Mikhail Zegar (6:12)

You know, I'm afraid to say that I see some parallels, because definitely an almighty empire that Soviet Union used to be and the almighty empire of the United States of America have something in common. And I think it will be really important for some people in America to read this, to see some obvious trends that were happening in the Soviet Union and how that empire came to its end. And one of the most important reasons, as I've already mentioned, was the crisis of faith, crisis of confidence, the fact that for all Soviet people, the communist ideology was completely outdated and no one believed in it. So, basically, yes, I think liberal democracy, as it is the cornerstone of the United States, is crucial. And cynicism, which is becoming more and more influential in many countries of the world, is that kind of disease. So I think that's to find some unexpected parallels between historic figures, because I think unexpectedly, when I was writing about Mikhail Gorbachev, for example, I found that he historically, in a way, looks like former President Barack Obama or first Russian President Boris Yeltsin, in a way reminded me of Donald Trump.

Nick Spicer (7:38)

And just to look forward for your country and the Russians who may be looking back on their history and imagining the future, do you feel hopeful for your country? Is there going to be a moment where freedom and democracy come to the country?

Mikhail Zegar (7:54)

You know, first, I do think that the end of the Putin's empire is inevitable. And I think it's from historical point of view, it's more or less obvious that the concept of Russia as an empire is doomed. So Russia won't be able to remain that aggressive empire as it's trying to be. So I'm more or less confident that it will be very different from what we see now in 20 years. It's harder to predict future of democracy because it depends on the rest of the world as well. Yeah, I wish that democratic ideas in Russia could prevail. And I think it's possible. It's really possible because unfortunately, tragically, the leader of Russian opposition, Alexei Navalny, was murdered in Russian prison two years ago. But still, he is clearly going to be seen by future generations of Russians as some kind of Russian messiah, the heroic leader who gave his life for democratic values, for the idea that Russia can be democracy. And I think that's a very powerful message when a person sacrifices his life for his belief in democracy. That's very impactful. That can really change the way how the future generations would see their own future.

Nick Spicer (9:19)

A hero to remember then.

Mikhail Zegar (9:20)

Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Spicer (9:21)

Mikhail Zegar is the author of Dark side of the Earth. Thanks so much.

Mikhail Zegar (9:25)

Thank you, Nick.

Alyssa Nadworny (9:26)

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