Paul McCartney on his band 'Wings,' plus the story of indie label Bloodshot Records

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day – Episode Summary

Date: December 19, 2025
Episode: Paul McCartney on his band 'Wings,' plus the story of indie label Bloodshot Records
Host: Andrew Limbong (plus Scott Simon and A. Martinez for interviews)
Guests: Rob Miller (Bloodshot Records co-founder, author), Paul McCartney (musician, author)

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Episode Overview

This episode features two captivating conversations at the intersection of music and publishing:

• First, Rob Miller, co-founder of influential indie label Bloodshot Records, discusses his memoir chronicling the 1990s alt-country scene and reflects on the value and legacy of independent labels.
• Next, Sir Paul McCartney reminisces about forming Wings after the Beatles, highlights his creative rebirth, and discusses his new book Wings: The Story of a Band on the Run.

The episode explores artistic risk, scene-building, enduring collaboration, and the evolution of music-making.

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Segment 1: Bloodshot Records & the Alt-Country Scene

Guest: Rob Miller
Interviewer: Scott Simon
Timestamps: 01:26–09:47

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Birth of Bloodshot Records

• Genesis in Chicago:

  • Miller moved from Detroit to Chicago seeking a break from music, only to get pulled back in by a vibrant, forgiving music scene.

    "I was no longer hearing music. It was just something that was in the way as I did my job... Let's move to Chicago, like so many other people from Detroit were doing." – Rob Miller (02:28)

• DIY Ethos:

  • Chicago allowed artistic experimentation without high stakes. Anyone could try—and fail—and try again.

    "You could screw things up, you could fail and just try again... You could just kind of try things out." – Rob Miller (03:07)

• Origins on a Bar Napkin:

  • Bloodshot's founders listed ignored roots bands at a bar, determined to showcase them in a compilation.

    “All these roots bands were kind of percolating beneath the surface... We just thought it was a shame and that we should just put together a compilation album and see what happens.” – Rob Miller (03:50)

Showcasing Forgotten Influences

• Notable Releases:
  • Straight Out of Boone County (1997): Modern artists cover obscure tracks from King Records and an old radio show, giving them new life while honoring their outsider energy.

    “They did it through their own lens in a way that was just vastly different... still in the same spirit of innovation and kind of an outsider mentality.” – Rob Miller (05:12)

Artist Encounters

• Justin Townes Earle:
  • Miller's first encounter with Earle marked a pivotal moment:

    “By the second song, I knew I had to work with him. It was a thunderclap moment for me.” – Rob Miller (06:05)

The Unromantic Life of a Label Founder

• Miller debunks the idea that running a label is glamorous:

  “If you consider 3am tacos and not sleeping... It's not glamorous, but it was never boring and it was never the same. And it did have those moments of exaltation when it all went right.” – Rob Miller (06:39)

Wisdom from the Road

• Tour Manager’s Rules:
  • Never give out your duct tape: “Everyone wants duct tape and they take it and then they never come back with it.” (07:14)
  • Never leave food behind: “In that dead zone between Columbus, Ohio and Louisville, Kentucky at 4:30 in the morning, whatever was left behind will seem like a steak to you.” (07:30)

Label Controversy and Accountability

• On Bloodshot’s 2021 Scandal:
  • Addressing royalty payment allegations:

    “I put my full faith and trust in a business partner who did not deserve it... But I made sure to the best of my abilities that people were paid what they were owed.” – Rob Miller (08:03)

The Relevance of Independent Labels Today

• In the age of DIY music distribution, Miller argues that teams—not just labels—remain crucial for helping artists break through:

  “Artists are by nature... they do not have the logistical grace to carry off all the things that need to happen to make your music rise above the din... you need a team behind you.” – Rob Miller (08:55)

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Memorable Quotes

• “You could just kind of try things out.” – Rob Miller (03:07)
• "If you consider 3am tacos and not sleeping... it's not glamorous, but it was never boring." – Rob Miller (06:39)
• "Never give your duct tape to anyone." – Rob Miller (07:14)
• "You need a team behind you... No one can do this by themselves." – Rob Miller (08:55)

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Segment 2: Paul McCartney on Wings

Guest: Paul McCartney
Interviewer: A. Martinez
Timestamps: 11:01–17:53

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Emotional Aftermath of the Beatles’ Breakup

• Unexpected Ending:

  • McCartney recalls not seeing the breakup coming, observing subtle shifts as members’ personal lives changed:

    "The sort of giveaway was that we weren't spending a lot of time with each other... For me, it was quite a shock." – Paul McCartney (11:57)

• Willingness to Continue:

  • He hoped to rebuild the Beatles but realized he needed a new beginning:

    "I was trying to encourage us to sort of go back... But in actual fact, I did that with Wings." – Paul McCartney (12:37) "Looking back on it now and reading the Wings book, it was like, my God, I'm a maniac. I am a total maniac." – Paul McCartney (13:09)

The Scotland Years & Creative Rebirth

• Simplicity and Freedom:

  • Moving to a farm brought McCartney a sense of autonomy:

    "No one's gonna buy me a Christmas tree. I've got to go and get my own... Something as simple as that felt like total freedom." – Paul McCartney (13:45)

• Linda McCartney's Role:

  • Her involvement was natural, born from home duets:

    "We would sing around the house... She's really got something. But she's completely inexperienced." – Paul McCartney (14:21) "She was very cute... I said, do you want to be in it? She sort of said, yeah." – Paul McCartney (14:43)

Wing’s Early Struggles and Identity Building

• Trial by Small Gigs (and Mishaps!):

  • A classic story about blanking onstage with Linda, and the audience interpreting it as a joke:

    “I look over at Linda, and she's looking kind of, you know, perplexed... So I walk over... and I've forgotten it. Well, luckily, the audience thought this was like a sort of gag... and Linda remembered it and started it.” – Paul McCartney (15:37)

• Deliberate Step Away from Beatles Legacy:

  • McCartney wanted Wings to stand on its own before embracing his past:

    “At the time, I thought, I'm trying to make a new band here... in order to build a Wings repertoire... Once that happened... then I felt easier... So now I interspersed. But I felt I had to establish the identity of Wings first.” – Paul McCartney (16:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My God, I'm a maniac. I am a total maniac.” – Paul McCartney (13:09)
• “No one's gonna buy me a Christmas tree. I've got to go and get my own... That felt like total freedom.” – Paul McCartney (13:45)
• “Luckily, the audience thought this was like a sort of gag... and Linda remembered it and we did the song.” – Paul McCartney (15:37)
• “I felt I had to establish the identity of Wings first.” – Paul McCartney (16:46)
• “Listen, NPR is great and must always survive and educate us all in the ways of life.” – Paul McCartney (17:53)

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Important Musical Moments

• Paul McCartney and Wings: Several song excerpts including “Silly Love Songs,” “Live and Let Die,” and “Band on the Run” effectively punctuate the conversation.
• Anecdotal moments of impromptu performance illustrate the risk—and joy—of building something new from scratch.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:26–09:47 – Rob Miller on alt-country, Bloodshot’s history, indie label culture, and navigating scandal
• 11:01–17:53 – Paul McCartney on the aftermath of the Beatles, forming Wings, creative rebirth, and fighting for band identity
• 15:37 – Memorable Linda McCartney stage anecdote
• 16:46 – On refusing to play Beatles songs with Wings

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Tone & Closing Notes

Both interviews maintain an open, conversational tone, rich with anecdotes and honest reflections. Miller’s stories are laced with wry humor; McCartney’s with warmth, humility, and a dash of self-mockery.

Ending Note:
The episode offers a heartfelt glance behind the curtain—into both a seminal music movement and the life of a legendary artist reimagining his career. Whether you’re interested in indie music’s roots or post-Beatles resurgence, you’ll discover the personal and professional complexities of making music—then and now.

Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong and if you are a regular listener, you know we love Friday music pairings around here. So in a bit, the one and only Paul McCartney is on the pod. His new book is all about his post Beatles band Wings. But first, if you were paying any attention right now to current day indie rock, you know that a lot of it is tinged with Americana, country, French folk. This is not the first time that the punks have picked up the pedal steel. There was a wave of alt country music back in the 90s, particularly out of Chicago, and much of it coming out of one indie label, Bloodshot Records. Rob Miller is a co founder of the label and his new book is about the music scene he helped cultivate. It's called the Hours Are Long but the Pay is Low. He talks to npr. Scott Simon, about the book and whether labels are still necessary today. That's after the break.

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[Scott Simon]

In the early 1990s there was a new sound in music. Not quite country, not quite rock, not quite hung. It was dubbed alt country or even the alternative, bubbling up alongside alternative rock and grunge. Rob Miller called it insurgent country and in 1993 he co founded Bloodshot Records, an independent label in Chicago. Label put out albums by the old 97s, the bottle rockets and many more. He's now written a memoir, the Hours are Long but the pay is Low. Rob Miller joins us from Chicago. Thanks so much for being with us.

[Rob Miller]

Oh, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

[Scott Simon]

You grew up in Detroit in the 70s and say in this book you went to Chicago to escape music. Didn't quite work out, did it?

[Rob Miller]

No, no, in that I failed spectacularly.

[Scott Simon]

Well, what happened?

[Rob Miller]

I had been working in Detroit as a middling fanzine writer and I'd also been doing a lot of stage production and production managing. And I just found myself being at shows 14, 16 hours a day, first one in, last one out kind of thing, day after day. And I kind of got burned out on Music. And I was no longer hearing music. It was just something that was in the way as I did my job. And I thought I just was kind of done with music and let's move to Chicago, like so many other people from Detroit were doing at the time.

[Scott Simon]

What did you happen upon? What did you discover in Chicago at that time?

[Rob Miller]

It was a place where people in the creative fields, writers, theater people, woodworkers, musicians, people who wanted to start labels. It was a very wide open town and with a very low bar for entry. And you could screw things up, you could fail and just try again. There was no sense of, this is my shot. Because Chicago was not in the spotlight that, say, New York or LA or Nashville were, in terms of music. You could just kind of try things out.

[Scott Simon]

So Bloodshot Records was, if I might put it this way, conceived on a bar napkin.

[Rob Miller]

You may. Yes.

[Scott Simon]

We.

[Rob Miller]

A couple of friends of mine and I, we were sitting in one of our favorite bars and we just made up a list of names of bands that were kind of playing around with roots music tropes. And they were being completely ignored by the music press. That was happening at the time that were falling over themselves with Liz Phair and the Smashing Pumpkins and Urge Overkill and Chicago's kind of being portrayed as the next Seattle. But all these root spans were kind of percolating beneath the surface of this underground scene. The underground of the underground. We just thought it was a shame and that we should just put together a compilation album and see what happens.

[Scott Simon]

Let me ask you about some artists and their releases. For example, 1997, straight out of Boone County.

[Rob Miller]

Well, that was one where we had modern artists or artists in our circle do covers of songs from a label called King Records and a radio show called Boone county out of Southern Ohio in the 1950s. Hugely influential, but also has kind of been forgotten.

[Paul McCartney]

Well, there's an evening train coming and.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

I'm gonna be on it I've been playing sick and feeling my girl and I wanna go home But I'm really homesick and I'm tired of a big, big city I'm gonna hop that train and tell the engineer to get with.

[Rob Miller]

It and so we had these people cover songs from that catalog. And they did it through their own lens in a way that was just vastly different from what it was originally done. But still in the same spirit of innovation and kind of an outsider mentality to it. And, yeah, a lot of people loved it, but a lot of people, you know, who were arbiters of country authenticity hated It.

[Scott Simon]

And let me ask you about Just In Town's Earl.

[Paul McCartney]

Good.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

I'm going uptown to the hall of.

[Scott Simon]

River to drown the son of Steve Earl, the the great country music artist named after Townes Van Zant. The kid didn't have a chance.

[Rob Miller]

Justin was somebody who stayed at my house once and I didn't know who he was. I mean I knew who he was, but I didn't know his music. I knew who his dad was and he played at a house concert in the north shore of Chicago and I went to it and within the second song, by the second song, I knew I had to work with him. He just commanded that little makeshift stage in this house and had an intensity to him that it was a thunderclap moment for me.

[Scott Simon]

Friend said your work was glamorous. Was it?

[Rob Miller]

If you consider 3am tacos and not sleeping and long drives to watch somebody play for 30 people and make no money and be the first one in the building and last one out or of the office as well, it's not glamorous, but it was never boring and it was never the same. And it did have those moments of exaltation when it all went right.

[Scott Simon]

In your appendix. You have some tour managers words of wisdom. May I ask you about couple?

[Rob Miller]

Sure.

[Scott Simon]

Never give your duct tape to anyone.

[Rob Miller]

Well, that's pretty self explanatory. I mean everyone wants duct tape and they take it and then they never come back with it. And then the next day you're looking for your duct tape and it's gone.

[Scott Simon]

Yeah, I. I guess you're right. And you advise never leave behind any food.

[Rob Miller]

You're not hungry now. But in that dead zone between Columbus, Ohio and Louisville, Kentucky at 4:30 in the morning, whatever was left behind will seem like a stake to you.

[Scott Simon]

I gotta ask you, you walked away from Bloodshot in October 2021 and there was a lot of controversy surrounding the label. There were allegations that some artists were owed thousands of dollars in royalties. How do you respond?

[Rob Miller]

That I put my full faith and trust in a business partner who did not deserve it. For better and for worse. Our responsibilities were incredibly siloed and I just thought that we shared a conviction to make sure we were doing things above board. And apparently we did not. I will say that I made sure to the best of my abilities that people were paid what they were owed. We spent a lot of time and accounting money to make sure myself and the staff to make sure that people were paid what they were owed.

[Scott Simon]

Is there still a need and a place for independent labels in a time when, you know, someone can sing a few lines into their iPhone and put it online and millions of people can.

[Rob Miller]

Hear it, I think absolutely there is, because artists are by nature, let's say, let us just say that they do not have the logistical grace to carry off all the things that need to happen to make your music rise above the din of all these other people putting out music. So if label is maybe an antiquated term, then at least a team, you need a team behind you to help you help people find out what is so special about your music. We're all in it together, so no one can do this by themselves.

[Scott Simon]

Rob Miller, co founder of Bloodshot Records. His new book is the Hours Are Long but the Pay is Low. Thanks so much for being with us.

[Rob Miller]

Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

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[Andrew Limbong]

I don't know if I really need to do a setup here, right? It's NPR's A. Martinez talking to Paul McCartney about his band Wings. You know who Paul McCartney is, don't you?

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

Here's a In 1970, the Beatles broke up. Paul McCartney and his family left the chaos of Abbey Road for a quieter life on a farm in Scotland. But soon the itch came back. He wanted to get back to writing silly love songs.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

And what's wrong with that? I like to know. Cause here I go again.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

Paul McCartney's new band was called Wings, and they became one of the best biggest hit makers of the 1970s. McCartney chatted with us about his new book, the Story of a Band on the run. And we started where the Beatles ended.

[Paul McCartney]

I didn't really see it coming. The sort of giveaway was that we weren't spending a lot of time with each other. Once we started to, you know, get girlfriends and wives. Once John, for instance, hooked up with Yoko, that was, you know, telling. I could see that he now wanted to go in another direction. And I just hooked up with Linda. I didn't need to go in another direction. We could have just continued as we were, but things were changing. But at the time, it was quite a shock.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

I mean, it sounds like you were willing to, you know, keep giving this a try.

[Paul McCartney]

It sounded like, yeah, sure, with the Beatles, it would have been great. I was trying to encourage us to sort of go back and sort of start from square one. But in actual fact, I did that with Wings. It was kind of strange move, really. But the alternative was to have a big. What they would call the super group. I mean, looking back on it now and reading the. The Wings book, it was like, my God, I'm a maniac. I am a total maniac.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

I can almost remember the money faces that time you told him that you gonna be marrying soon. And chance. I thought the only lonely place was on the moon.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

Tell me, though, post Beatles, now you're on your farm, your. Your sheep farm in Scotland. You're with Linda, the kids. Where were you creatively at that point?

[Paul McCartney]

I was in a simpler frame of mind, and I think I was in a freer state of mind. I remember thinking when I was with the Beatles, we had our office in London, and at Christmas time, someone would buy a Christmas tree. And then when I was up in Scotland, I thought, this is great. No one's gonna buy me a Christmas tree. I've got to go and get my own. I mean, you know, something as simple as that felt like total freedom. It was like, this is great. I love this.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

So it sounds like the juices started to flow for sure.

[Paul McCartney]

Yeah. You know, it really was like a rebirth. And then the craziest thing was my lovely wife Linda, we would sing around the house. And I always remember thinking, wow, she's really got something. But she's completely inexperienced.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

I mean, did you have to pitch her to be in the band, or did she want to be?

[Paul McCartney]

No, she was very cute. She could tell I wanted to put a band together. I said, do you want to be in it? She sort of said, yeah.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

When you were young and your heart was an open book.

[Paul McCartney]

You used to.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

Say, live and let live. You know, you did. You Know you did, you know you did. But if this ever changing world in which we live in Makes you give in and cry say live and let die.

[Paul McCartney]

We had a lot of fun. It was crazy. There were certainly moments that were fraught with danger and. Oh, like what?

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

Like what moments?

[Paul McCartney]

Please tell me. Oh, my God. We were playing crazy little gigs. I had a song that we used to do called Wildlife. The intro is on piano. So Linda had the intro. I said, we'd like to do a song now called Wildlife. One, two, three, one, two, three, Nothing. And I look over at Linda, and she's looking kind of, you know, perplexed. Oh, hell, how does this go? So I think, oh, okay, I'll show her. So I walk over and I go, okay. And I've forgotten it. So we're. Bloody hell, the two of us. Well, luckily, the audience thought this was like a sort of gag. Was this rehearsed? And then suddenly it clicked in and Linda remembered it and she started it and we did the song.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

When Wings, you know, was. Was touring British universities, playing covers, playing Wing songs. No Beatles songs. I mean, it sounded like in the book that you really kind of rejected any of the doors that would open by you being a Beatle.

[Paul McCartney]

Well, you know, at the time, I thought, I'm trying to make a new band here. I'm trying to do this new thing, you know, and promoters would say, would you just. Please just do. Yesterday we said, no, we're not doing it. We did it that way in order to build a Wings repertoire. Yeah. Once that happened, I was round about 76 when we had a record band on the run. Suddenly now we had songs that the audience would recognize were our songs, Wings songs. So then I felt easier about, oh, yeah, you know, here's a Beatles song. So now I interspersed. But I felt I had to establish the identity of Wings first.

[Paul McCartney Singing]

If I ever get out of here. Thought of giving it all away to register charity. All I need is a pine today if I ever get out of here.

[NPR Host (A. Martinez)]

That's Sir Paul McCartney. His new book is Wings the Story of a Band on the Run. Paul, thank you very much.

[Paul McCartney]

Thank you. It's been fun. And listen, NPR is great and must always survive and educate us all in the ways of life.

[Rob Miller]

Perfect, perfect way to end it.

[Andrew Limbong]

And that's it for NPR's Book of the Day. If you want more, you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter Books. I'm Andrew Limbong. The podcast is produced by Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan with help from Ivy Buck. Our founding editor is Petra Mayer. The show elements for this week were produced and edited by Jordan Marie Smith, Sarah Handle, Natalie Winston, Adriana Gallardo, Barry Gordemer, Martin Patience, Ed McNulty, some Samantha Balaban, Shannon Rhodes, Phil Harrell, Dave Mistich and Jacob Fenston. Yolanda Sanguini is our executive producer. Thanks for listening.

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