Rep. Jim Clyburn’s new book 'The First Eight' traces the history of his predecessors

Summary

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NPR’s Book of the Day – Rep. Jim Clyburn’s "The First Eight"

Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Michelle Martin
Guest: Congressman Jim Clyburn (D-SC)
Episode Theme: Exploring history, legacy, and the enduring relevance of Black congressional trailblazers, as highlighted in Rep. Jim Clyburn’s book The First Eight.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Congressman Jim Clyburn’s new book, The First Eight, which chronicles the lives and impacts of eight Black congressmen from South Carolina who served before him. The discussion, anchored by Michelle Martin, reveals how the legacy of these men—not only in overcoming immense adversity but also in navigating issues such as racism and colorism—remains pertinent to today’s sociopolitical climate, especially in light of recent election events. Clyburn offers both a personal connection and pointed commentary on the cycles of history repeating themselves in American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Record Straight: Black Congressional History

• [01:14] Michelle Martin introduces the common misconception that Clyburn is the first Black congressman from South Carolina. Clyburn’s book seeks to correct that, honoring his eight predecessors from the Reconstruction era who paved the way despite extraordinary challenges.

Early Influences & The Inspiration Behind the Book

• [02:04]–[02:15] Clyburn credits his father and his upbringing for introducing him to these historic figures, particularly Robert Smalls.

  • Quote:

    “My daddy was a real stickler for education... he introduced me to Robert Smalls.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 02:04

• [02:16]–[03:15] The interview spotlights Robert Smalls, a formerly enslaved man who commandeered a Confederate ship to freedom and later became the first Black Navy captain.

  • Quote:

    “Robert Smalls was number six in this group... he smuggled his wife onto the ship and took off... and his reward was his freedom. Everybody on the ship got their freedom.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 02:21–03:15

Parallels Between Past and Present: The Persistence of Electoral Manipulation

• [03:28]–[04:41] The discussion shifts to George Washington Murray, the last of the eight, who was deprived of his seat through “false electors”—a tactic echoed in contemporary events post-2020 election.

  • Quote:

    “Someone had taken a playbook from the 1876 election... When this happened is when I changed the direction of the book.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 04:05

• Clyburn describes how the book evolved from a simple historical account to an instructive warning for the present.

Intra-Community Dynamics: Colorism and Belonging

• [04:41]–[05:42] Beyond racism, Clyburn discusses the impact of colorism and intra-community divisions, such as “come here” vs. “been here” designations, on Black political agency.
  • Quote:

    “When I got to Charleston, I was told that I was a come here, not a been here... you need to work through all of that, and you aren’t going to work through it by avoiding it.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 05:07–05:41

The Question of Retirement and Legacy

• [05:42]–[06:44] When asked about his plans for reelection and the broader question of generational change, Clyburn shares that his family's annual “summit” will determine his next steps, emphasizing accountability and community support.
  • Quote:

    “We will have that meeting on the 20th of December... none of the voters down there are asking me to leave. In fact, just the opposite.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 06:17, 06:41

Lessons from the Past: Warnings & Hopes

• [06:44]–[07:47] Clyburn concludes that history’s patterns threaten to repeat unless Americans remain vigilant, highlighting the rise in African American male support for “style over substance” politicians.
  • Quote:

    “Anything that’s happened before can happen again... I used to say there’s no substitute for substance, but I don’t say that anymore because people seem to be more attracted by style these days than substance.”
    — Jim Clyburn, 06:51–07:47

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Robert Smalls' daring escape:
  “He smuggles a supply ship across Confederate lines into Union hands.”
  — Michelle Martin, 03:08

• On historical “false electors”:
  “Someone had taken a playbook from the 1876 election... I really almost started over with the book.”
  — Jim Clyburn, 04:05

• On facing persistent internal and external obstacles:
  “You need to work through all of that, and you aren’t going to work through it by avoiding it. All right.”
  — Jim Clyburn, 05:31

• On generational leadership and family accountability:
  “We started [our family summit] back in 1972. We will have that meeting... and during that time is when we go make a decision one way or the other.”
  — Jim Clyburn, 05:57–06:17

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & correction of misconception: 01:14
• Clyburn’s background and early influences: 02:04–02:21
• Robert Smalls’ story: 02:21–03:15
• George Washington Murray and election manipulation parallels: 03:28–04:41
• Book’s changing focus post-2020: 04:05–04:41
• Discussion of colorism and “come here” / “been here”: 05:07–05:42
• Clyburn on reelection plans: 05:42–06:44
• Key takeaway from profiling the first eight: 06:44–07:47

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Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, engaging, and frank—combining Clyburn’s storytelling about historic figures with direct commentary on present-day challenges and political realities. Both Martin and Clyburn interlace historical reflection with current events, grounding the dialogue in lived experience and ongoing struggles for justice and representation.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a poignant exploration of how the struggles and resiliency of Black congressmen from the 19th century remain instructive in today’s turbulent American democracy. Clyburn’s reflections serve not merely as a historical account but as a cautionary tale and a call to awareness—reminding listeners:

“Anything that’s happened before can happen again.”
— Jim Clyburn, 06:51

The First Eight is positioned not just as a tribute to unsung heroes, but as a timely guide for navigating the complexities of representation, legitimacy, and resilience in American public life.

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Transcript

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. What happened before can happen again. That's a point Congressman Jim Clyburn makes in today's interview. His new book, the First Eight, is a look at the eight black congressmen from South Carolina who came before him. The book began as an exercise in history, a way of remembering the people who forged a path for Clyburn. But in this interview with NPR's Michelle Martin, Clyburn talks about how the direction of the book changed after the 2020 elections, from looking back in the past to saying something about the present. That's coming up.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

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[Michelle Martin]

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[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

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[Michelle Martin]

After three decades in office, you might think you know everything there is to know about one of the Democratic Party's most influential lawmakers, Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina. But one assumption many have about him is incorrect. He is the first black congressman from his native state. There were eight others before him. His new book, the First Eight, tells the story of these eight men who overcame incredible odds, from slavery to freedom to the bloody backlash of Reconstruction, and paved the way for him and others in American politics. And Congressman Clyburn is with us now in our Studios in Washington, D.C. congressman, thank you so much for coming by to see us.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Michelle Martin]

I know that you were a history teacher before you entered politics, although you were always, you know, an activist. But so many of the people in your book, many people have never heard of. And I wondered, how did you know about them?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

My daddy was a real stickler for education, and my dad thought that Robert Smalls was a great guy. He introduced me to Robert Smalls.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, tell me about Robert Smalls.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Robert Smalls is.

[Michelle Martin]

The story is incredible. I mean, the story. I mean, honestly, it's a movie.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Yeah. Robert Smalls was number six in this group. This is a guy who was born enslaved. His mother talked the master, their owner, into letting him go to Charleston and work on the waterfront. And while he was on that waterfront, people noticed that he had leadership skills. So he was kind of put in charge of all the other enslaved people on the ship. And the three guys who ran the ship, they had this habit of every Friday night they would leave the ship, go into town, would not come back until the next day. Well, one day when they were gone, Smalls smuggled his wife onto the ship and took off.

[Michelle Martin]

So he smuggles a supply ship across Confederate lines into Union hands.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Yes.

[Michelle Martin]

Amazing.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

And his reward was his freedom. Everybody on the ship got their freedom. And he got 1500 bucks in cash and he became the first African American captain in the United States Navy.

[Michelle Martin]

So let's skip through. We've already talked about Robert Smalls. Let's go to the 8th, George Washington Murray. Let's talk about him and the scheme to deprive him of his seat by the then governor, you know, Ben so called Pitchfork Tillman, who created the scheme of creating sort of a set of false electors or dual electors in order to invalidate the electors who had been selected by the voters, much like they're doing today. And I just was. I don't know if you grew up knowing about that, but when you came upon this information, I was just wondering how it, how it struck you.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, when I saw what was happening after the 2020 elections, someone had taken a playbook from the 1876 election. What was going on up in Michigan, trying to get these alternative set of electors. When this happened is when I changed the direction of the book. Because the book was going to be just to inform people about these guys. But then it got to the point where it's no, it's got to be more instructive than informant. And so I really almost started over with the book.

[Michelle Martin]

One of the things about the book that's also interesting is you talk about obviously the obstacles that these men faced and you talked about obviously the intense racism that they all faced. But one of the other things that's interesting is you also talk about the way the color, colorism dynamics played into their careers. And that's. It's still a sensitive subject, I think, among a lot of some African Americans. And I was just wondering why it was important to you to talk about those things.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I thought that be real. My whole thing, that's the history. When I ran in 1992, it was an issue in my campaign. When I got to Charleston, I was told that I was a come here, not a been here, which was very important back then.

[Michelle Martin]

A come here, not a been here.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Yeah.

[Michelle Martin]

Which means you just showed up.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

You just showed up a Come here.

[Michelle Martin]

Not. I've been here. Okay.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

And you were treated differently as a result of that. But the fact of the matter is you need to work through all of that, and you aren't going to work through it by avoiding it. All right.

[Michelle Martin]

Have you made a decision about whether you're going to run for reelection?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I mean, not really.

[Michelle Martin]

You know, Nancy Pelosi is only a few months older than you, and she's made the decision that she's not going to run again. Because, you know, the argument that some are making is that it's time for kind of a generational turnover. What are your thoughts about that?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Well, my family and I started meeting what we call our family summit every year. We started back in 1972.

[Michelle Martin]

You've mentioned that to me before, that you have basically an accountability circle in your family where it is their responsibility to reflect on whether you're still capable of doing the job in the manner that you would all wish.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

And we will have that meeting on the 20th of December. We'll stay together until New Year's Day. And during that time is when we go make a decision one way or the other. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I feel great. I still can play 36 holes of golf in Monday, and I can tell you, none of the voters down there are asking me to leave. In fact, just the opposite. They want the benefit of that experience.

[Michelle Martin]

So again, before we let you go, when you look at the history of these eight men that you profiled, what do you draw from it?

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

I draw from that simply anything that's happened before can happen again. And so you cannot allow this president, with this majority in the Congress, to cause you to react to their foolishness, because that's what happened before. And it will happen again if you aren't careful. And we saw some of it in the last election when you got a big increase in the African American male vote, especially. And when you talk to them, oh, he's strong. In fact, I told Joe Biden the last time I talked to him about this, I said, you know what I used to say, there's no substitute for substance. But I don't say that anymore because people seem to be more attracted by style these days than substance. And so that's one of the things that I talk about in this book.

[Michelle Martin]

That is Congressman Jim Clyburn. His latest book is the First A Personal History of the Pioneering Black Congressman who Shaped a Nation. Jim Clyburn, the Ninth. Congressman Clyburn, the ninth. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

[Congressman Jim Clyburn]

Thank you very much for having me lift every voice and sing television.

[Andrew Limbong]

Hey, Andrew here, The host of NPR's Book of the Day podcast. And yeah, I love new books, but the there's just something about rereading an old favorite on our new limited series, Books We've Loved. We're revisiting some classics from Pride and Prejudice to Dune to Everything in between and talking about why they're worth reading today. Listen to NPR's Books We've Loved right on this podcast feed every Saturday on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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