Revisiting Frank Herbert’s ‘Dune’

Summary

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NPR’s Book of the Day — Revisiting Frank Herbert’s ‘Dune’

Date: December 6, 2025
Host(s): Andrew Limbong & BA Parker
Guest: Ramtin Arablouei (NPR's Throughline)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode takes a comprehensive, lively look back at Frank Herbert’s Dune, exploring why the novel continues to captivate readers, how it shaped individual worldviews, and what makes its world-building and ideas resonate today. The hosts, joined by Ramtin Arablouei, discuss their personal journeys with the book, unpack its dense themes of ecology, religion, and power, and highlight its enormous influence on science fiction and broader culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Personal Impact of Dune

• Ramtin’s Origin Story
  • Ramtin first read Dune at age 13, having come to reading later as English was his second language.
  • "Once I started reading, I really got into sci-fi books… I had a teacher who was like, 'Hey, if you really want to get into some deep stuff, Dune.' So I read it and I became obsessed. I read it like twice in a summer." — Ramtin (01:45)
  • For Ramtin, the Islamic and Middle Eastern influences made him see himself in the future: "I saw myself projected into the future or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in." — Ramtin (06:20)

2. The Heft and Complexity of the Book

• The group remarks on the physical and conceptual "heft" of Dune (617+ pages, not including appendices).
• The book’s world-building is praised for its depth but critiqued for being potentially confusing and overwhelming, especially for first-time readers:
  • "It’s like basically mostly context and world building… there isn't like narrative driving the way that like a typical sci-fi novel would." — Ramtin (04:00)

3. Plot Recap and Initial Impressions

• Andrew speeds through a summary of Dune, pointing out its complicated politics, betrayals, Paul Atreides’ journey, and the emergence of Paul as a messianic figure among the Fremen.
• The hosts confess to getting bogged down by terminology and the lack of a tight narrative thread, showing empathy for readers who bounce off the book early (05:11).

4. World-Building, Influence, and Cultural Resonance

• Ramtin sees Dune as pioneering in projecting modern issues into the future: economics, ecology, religion, gender dynamics.
  • "If sci-fi for you is a way to understand the world today, it has… a lot to offer. The way it projects… economics, ecology, religion, gender dynamics…” — Ramtin (07:01)

Dune's Influence on Science Fiction (Star Wars, etc.)

• The similarities between Dune and Star Wars are discussed, including plot points, the desert planet motif, and certain characters:
  • "These are one-to-one concepts… Jabba the Hutt and the Worms… the desert planet… It's just a ripoff in a lot of ways." — Ramtin (10:28)
• Andrew notes Herbert’s frustration at never being acknowledged by George Lucas: "…Lucasfilms ain't got a check." — Andrew (11:13)
• Ramtin contrasts Dune’s recent quality films with the "Disneyfication" of Star Wars, reflecting on the different trajectories of their legacies.

5. Thematic Analysis: Ecology, Power, and Leadership

• The concept that "culture follows ecology" is highlighted as fundamental to Dune (13:10).
• Dune as a warning about charismatic leadership:
  • Herbert's aim: "Don't trust leaders to always be right." — Frank Herbert (quoted by Andrew, 14:36)
  • The first book explores the rise, not the fall, of the hero—a point of contention among the hosts.

6. Technology in Dune: Human Potential as Tech

• Herbert’s approach is unique—technology is not just machines, but humans developing themselves and their minds as technology, especially in a post-computer world:
  • "When you don't have those things [machines], you're forced to develop the mind as a technology. So the book… depends on human beings and their mental capabilities." — Ramtin (17:50)
  • Insights about Mentats and spice as a tool/technology (18:28–18:59).

7. Moral Complexity and Religion

• Dune is described as "profoundly morally dubious" and avoids black-and-white characterization.
• The Fremen’s social system is discussed as both collective and brutally practical.
• Religion’s dual role: The book may seem anti-religious but is actually more anti-deterministic and anti-prophecy.
  • "He respects faith systems…But when it comes to someone saying, 'I see the future, follow me,' he seems really deeply suspicious of that…" — Ramtin (23:24)

8. Literary Quality: Is Herbert a “Good” Writer?

• The hosts debate Herbert’s skill as a prose stylist versus an idea generator:
  • "Is he the best writer in the world? No. What makes the book special are the ideas in it versus the way that those ideas are expressed." — Ramtin (27:16)
  • The group highlights standout passages—like the Litany Against Fear—as examples of Herbert’s flashes of real literary beauty.

9. Why Read Dune Today?

• It provides insight into geopolitics, resource conflict, and ideology, as well as a rare, respectful early depiction of Islamic culture in Western sci-fi.
  • "It gives you a better understanding of the world we live in now… And we should be really suspicious of anyone that tells us that they have all the answers…its portrayal of Islamic thought is the most respectful…from a white American author writing in the 1950s and 60s…" — Ramtin (27:37)

10. Book Recommendations (“If you like this, try…”)

• BA Parker: The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin (31:16)—explores gender and binary thinking through sci-fi.
• Andrew: Saga (comic series) by Brian K. Vaughan & Fiona Staples—cross-star saga with grand politics and cultures (32:11).
• Ramtin: Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke—an immersive sci-fi adventure with profound world-building (32:26).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"I saw myself projected into the future or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in."
— Ramtin (06:20)

"Is he the best writer in the world? No. What makes the book special are the ideas in it versus the way that those ideas are expressed."
— Ramtin (27:16)

"Don't trust leaders to always be right."
— Frank Herbert, quoted by Andrew (14:36)

"The first book...it's all about the come up and nothing about the crash."
— Andrew (15:13)

"He respects faith systems as far as they serve us in our lives… But… when it comes to someone saying ‘I see the future, follow me,’ he seems really deeply suspicious of that."
— Ramtin (23:24)

"I can say I read Dune now when a guy at a party is like, but have you read Dune?"
— BA Parker (30:15)

"When you read something young, it forms almost like a temple in your mind. And Dune has always been a temple that I can go in and visit."
— Pierce Brown, author of Red Rising (34:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:46–02:00 – Guest introduction & personal connections to Dune
• 02:00–04:45 – Plot summary and early impressions
• 04:45–07:40 – Discussion of book complexity, world-building, and why it’s both attractive and challenging
• 08:41–10:18 – Frank Herbert’s bio and Dune’s publication history
• 10:18–12:30 – Dune’s influence on Star Wars and broader pop culture
• 13:05–14:36 – Thematic underpinnings: ecology, leadership, and political allegory
• 14:36–16:35 – Herbert’s intent—deconstructing the hero myth
• 17:22–19:11 – Technology in Dune — Human minds and natural resources as “technology”
• 20:00–23:24 – Fremen culture, moral ambiguity, and religious themes
• 25:23–27:16 – Debate: Is Herbert a good writer?
• 27:35–29:31 – Why Dune remains important today
• 30:33–33:22 – Book recommendations for Dune fans
• 33:41–39:02 – Interview with Pierce Brown (author, Red Rising), discussing Dune’s mythology, influence, the importance of scarcity and politics in world-building, and how Dune’s thesis may differ from other space operas

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is energetic, self-aware, and often humorous—with the hosts balancing critique (the book’s density, plot confusion) with awe (the scale, detail, and impact). There’s generous vulnerability about their different reading experiences, and an intellectual excitement as they unpack why Dune matters so much.

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In Summary:
This episode offers a rich, wide-ranging, and inviting reappraisal of Dune. It covers how the book shapes readers’ sense of identity, the profound complexity (and challenge) of its storytelling, its legacy as a genre touchstone, and the reasons it’s still a vital read—especially for those curious about culture, geopolitics, faith, and the future of humanity.

Transcript

[A]

I saw myself projected into the future or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in.

[B]

You're listening to Books we've Loved from.

[C]

Npr, the book show where we reread old favorites and tell you why they still matter today.

[B]

I'm Andrew Limbong.

[C]

And I'm BA Parker.

[B]

This is a big one. This is a hefty. This is a hefty. Flipping through this right here. Andrew's hefty. Boy, it's so.

[C]

It's so much. And it's our guest's fault. And I mean, I did it.

[D]

I.

[C]

617 pages.

[B]

Uh huh. Is that not counting the appendices and all that?

[C]

Okay, so like almost 700 pages.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who do we have with us that.

[B]

We can thank for this? We have here Ramtin Arablouei from NPR's Throughline. Ramtin, what's up man?

[A]

Hey, how y' all doing?

[B]

Thank you for this assignment. Thank you. Oh, we're about to get through this heavy book. The book we're reading today.

[A]

In many ways it's heavy.

[B]

The book you brought us today is Frank Herbert's Dune.

[C]

Woo.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

All day.

[A]

All day. I've been waiting decades for this. It's all going to pour out here. Okay. I've been waiting for years to talk about this book, which I would tell you that. And y' all might be completely disturbed by this. Had a major part in building my worldview.

[B]

No, I believe it.

[C]

What?

[B]

I get it. Yeah.

[C]

How old did you.

[D]

How old?

[A]

I was 13.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I was in middle school when I first read this. Reading came late for me. I struggled with it a little bit. I mean, partly it's cause it was my second language. You know, I moved here. I just got out of being a toddler when I moved to the US and so it was hard to learn English. And so I kind of was delayed a little bit in reading. But once I started reading, I really got into sci fi books.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had a teacher who was like, hey, if you really want to get into some deep stuff, Dune. So I read it and I became obsessed. I read it like twice in a summer.

[B]

For listeners who haven't read it, I'm just gonna run through. I read this quick synopsis. We've been doing these like quick like, you know, summaries of the book. This is by far the longest synopsis. But I'm gonna try to get through it. This is, here's, here's Dune summed up. It goes, so Paul atreides is a 15 year old boy next in line to lead the Atreides family, who they rule over their water planet, Caladan. Right. And Paul's dad, Leto gets a call from the Emperor, says, guess what? You're now in charge of this desert planet called Arrakis. Arrakis kind of sucks there. It's dry and it's hot, but it is rich with this drug resource called spice. Turns out you find out midway through the book that the Emperor was working with the Harkonnen, who are rivals to the Atreides family. There's a big attack and now Paul's dad is dead. And Paul and his mom, Jessica are alone in the desert there. Paul and Jessica intermingle with the Fremen, who are the indigenous people of an Arrakis. And it turns out, Turns out it just so happens that Paul is this savior figure that they've been waiting for. Paul falls in love with a Fremen woman named Chani, and he eventually leads the Fremen to defeat the Harkonnen and then like overthrow the Emperor in a marriage in some sort of. I can't quite understand the deal that's made there. But Paul's at the top of the top of the castle at the end. Is that a fair once over look? Yes. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, Romson has a better understanding of what. He's read it more than once. I read it once and I thought Arrakis and Atreides were the same thing for first eight pages. So I was like, wait, did they name the planet after themselves?

[B]

And I was like, nah, girl, just different stuff.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

So I trust.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think that's one of the things I think that I loved about the book, but I think is a weak spot of it is it's like basically mostly context and world building. Yeah, yeah, it is building this world that is then expanded upon in the next five books that Herbert himself wrote. But I think that part of it, for my mind at that time, I was super into this kind of context, world building. What does it say about our world? What does it say about geopolitics? I was in that place and so it has that. But there's a ton of names and a ton of concepts and things are returned to and there isn't like narrative driving the way that like a typical sci fi novel would. So I can understand how you get those two mixed up.

[B]

But I respect.

[C]

I'm thankful for the glossary in the back of the book as you move forward.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So, Parker, like, since you weren't. Were you like a sci Fi kid growing up, were you reading stuff?

[C]

No, I was reading like Raald Dahl and like John Cheever's short story.

[B]

So, like, what was your impression of Dune? Like, did you know about that?

[C]

I knew it existed. I saw. I've seen the mov. The two movies. David Lynch, Timothee, Chalamet movies. I've never seen the David Lynch Dune.

[B]

Well, I'm just curious because. So when I was a teenager, I was big into sci fi. I was reading Ender's Game. I was reading Philip K. Dick, I was reading Ursula K. Le Guin. Da da. I remember I gave Dune a shot because I knew this was a big book in the genre. And I have this sense memory. I remember being in the backseat of the car, we were driving to church, and I'm reading my copy from the library. I get like 30 pages into it. I'm like, nah, bro, I'm done.

[E]

I'm done.

[B]

I'm out.

[A]

What made you want to be like, I'm out?

[B]

I just think I got confused. I was like, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know who was who. And there was no. At the time, I just couldn't grab onto anything driving me through the rest of the book. And so I was wondering, maybe it is possible that you were just built different as a kid, but do you remember as a kid being like, oh, I don't really know what the world of the emperor is and his big corporation thing, but I'm very attracted to this one thing that is driving me through.

[A]

Yeah, that's why I read it twice. Because I also obviously was like, what is going on? At times I didn't understand I had to keep going back, which is obviously not a. What you want as a writer, I think, to have people doing that. But at the same time, for me, it was personal. What this book had for me that appealed to me personally is it was like one of the first books, sci fi books that I read that projected the modern world into the future in the way that it did specifically for me. And Islam was a big part of the book. I mean, very quickly into the first, like, hundred pages, there's Arabic words coming up, Islamic concepts, and I'm.

[B]

They're like celebrating Ramadan, right? Yes. They're going on Hajj. I was like, what's happening? Yeah.

[A]

For me, it was like, wow. I saw myself and. Cause you're a kid, you're a narcissist, you're. You're really into yourself. At that point, I saw myself projected into the future or it felt like a world that somebody like me could live in.

[C]

That's so lovely. I feel so bad for like growling and being so mad while reading this.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Because that's legit too. Like I can hold both things right like at the same time. I understand that the book's weaknesses is it's just not as narrative driven like what you're saying. That totally makes sense. There isn't a thread that pulls you all the way through. It's not per se a like classically well written book, but what it has is the level of detail and research that went into it. If world building and if sci fi for you is a way to understand the world today, it has in my opinion a lot to offer there. Meaning the way it projects, you know, economics, ecology, religion, gender dynamics, all of that into the future I think is is really prescient in a way that a lot of other sci fi books aren't.

[B]

All right, I just want to take a quick break right here and then we'll get into all of.

[F]

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[B]

All right, we're back. Before Ramtin just laid out the big ideas that Herbert was working with in Dune. I'm just going to run through some quick bio stuff for Herbert to understand. This interesting guy that we've been working with that we've been thinking about so really quick. So he was born in Tacoma, Washington, so he's a Pacific Northwest guy. He was growing up, I believe during the Great Depression. His parents are alcoholics, so he Ran away from home as an adult. He was a journalist, a photographer, a speechwriter, and he was writing sci fi on the sides. And he was originally working on a magazine article about the U.S. department of Agriculture's efforts to stabilize sand dunes in Oregon. He never finished that article because he got too obsessed with this image of the sand dunes and how to, like, live and survive in a desert world. So he spent six years world building and he was just like, working on this draft. It was originally published in serial form in sci fi magazines. The full novel was rejected by 23 publishers before Chilton Books accepted it, which is a company, a publishing company mostly known for auto repair manuals. I also read that the guy who worked at that company and bought the book for the publishing company, the book was such a flop that he got fired, some bomber dude. But eventually the book was published in 65 and it won the Hugo and the Nebula, which are the big sci Fi awards to this day. And it is, I think, up there in the sci fi canon. Rumsey, since you were a big fan as a kid, how have you seen Dune's influence throughout the years? Are there any things that you saw in culture be like, that's Dune. That's Dune. That's Dune.

[A]

Yes. I mean, I think for me it was retrospective, right? Like after I read the book, I was like, let me go back and read like, where the idea for Star wars came from.

[B]

Like, immediately, we gotta talk about stars. Okay?

[A]

Right. That's the big one. I was like, yo, these are one to one concepts. I mean, I think it goes beyond inspiration. So you could argue Herbert was inspired by the foundation series by Asimov. Like, there is a lot of previous books and all art is a remix of some other art. In my opinion, it's influenced by something else. But some of the, like Jabba the Hutt and the Worms.

[B]

The desert planet.

[A]

The desert planet.

[C]

Oh, like the Baron.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Luke's story, Paul's story, like, it's just a ripoff in a lot of ways. And of course, you know, it's hard to prove that or whatever.

[B]

Frank Herbert, I think almost he's been on the record and be like, he ripped me off and I don't think he ever sued. But he definitely, like, Lucasfilms ain't got a check.

[A]

No, nah, they did not. Lucas denied it. He said, like, you know, of course I read it like everyone else, but like, no way. I was sitting down thinking about while I was, you know, writing this idea.

[C]

It's through osmosis.

[A]

Yes, I will say this. It makes me happy that. Or sad that Herbert didn't live long enough to see the rebirth and rise of Dune as a film and as a. Like a franchise and the death of Star wars, because I.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[F]

Come on down.

[A]

I argue Star wars has just gone too far. It's wow. Like the Disney ification of Star Wars. Whereas, you know, Dune is in the hands of, like, a great filmmaker like Denis Villeneuve. So I just think Herbert got the last laugh.

[C]

Hot take. I will say. When the first Dune, the part one, came out, I had a friend and I was like, this is the only time I will let you mansplain something to me. I need you to explain Dune to me before I see this movie. And he was like, well, it's basically Star wars for goths. And it's about. It's about, like, this spice and imperialism.

[G]

Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, okay, okay. And then I got in and saw the movie, and then I was like, oh, I understand even less. But beautiful gowns, great score, and everyone's hair was fantastic.

[B]

Immaculate. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, awesome. The movies, from a production standpoint, all that a. I really love that the film has made it like a franchise. Like, it's entered the popular parlance. Like, people are using those.

[B]

Yeah. There's a. There's an HBO series about the. The Ben.

[A]

The Sisterhood, which was. I watched, which I thought could have been better, but it was.

[B]

So, wait, are you thinking we're close to the Marvel ification of the.

[A]

I hope not. I hope not. I mean, it could. It could go that way.

[C]

Can I ask you, like, have you read all of the Dune books?

[A]

I've read all of them.

[C]

Like, even the ones that's like POV of the Sandworm?

[A]

Yes, I've read all of them. I mean, the first six are considered canon because they were written by Herbert. The rest were written by his son. But I'm just here for the universe, if I'm being honest with you. And I love the first book because I. Again, the themes. One of the things I love is culture follows ecology that is really explored in the first book. The themes of how to view leadership, how to view someone proclaiming that they are messiah, to basically be suspicious of all leadership. The fact that this was presented also in the context of the 1950s and 60s in America, a time where, you know, the US has essentially presented itself to itself as the tradies family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that the Soviets are the Harkonnens. It's a warning, a complex warning. And what I find really Fascinating is the reason why Herbert went on to write. Apparently he didn't want to write all those additional books. He wanted to go in a different direction. But he felt like critics and the fans really misunderstood the first book.

[B]

Okay, on that note, so I've got here this interview from 1982, who's on NBC. So he's a few books into the Dune series. He says a couple funny things in this interview. First off, he says, I want to write sci fi for the non sci fi audience. And I was like, that's an interesting, that's an interesting approach for a guy who wrote this. It's a guy who wrote this. Yeah. And then he's asked about, like, okay, what is like your goal with these books? What did you want to accomplish? And this is what he says.

[H]

Don't trust leaders to always be right.

I worked to create a leader in this book who would be really an attractive, charismatic person for all the good reasons, not for any bad reasons. Then power comes to him. He makes decisions. Some of his decisions made for millions of people, millions upon millions of people, don't work out too well.

[B]

Here's where I struggle with this book, which is that that is an interesting concept, that back half of that deconstruction of the hero myth. None of that really happens in book one. All of that happens. Right. As I understand all that happens. I'm kind of interested in buying Dune Messiah. I'm interested in. But none of that. If we're talking about specifically just about Dune, this first book, it's all about the come up and nothing about the crash. So it's like, is he successful if that is his goal with his book?

[A]

Well, I think this is my interpretation of what he's trying to do. The illustration of the visions that Paul is having about the future once he, you know, goes through the kind of the ritual of basically being inculcated with the spice in its purest form. He sees that there's like multiple different futures, that there isn't one. And some of the futures he sees are horrible and it's haunting him and it's scaring him. And I think Herbert thought people would then extrapolate, like, yeah, he came up, but now he's got an army of like, fanatics basically wiping out the known galaxy in his name. And he's not. He understands the darkness of this, but then gives up to like, it's inevitable, I can't do anything about it, et cetera. So I think he assumed that. But people misread it. People sometimes. And I think Even with the movie, saw it as like a white savior story, et cetera. But I think he meant it as the opposite. From what I understand, he had real problems with the hero journey itself, the hero's journey, which I do, and this is what I said about its worldview. I think it is picking apart that fundamental kind of deep, I would say, European sense of story.

[B]

All right, quick break and then we're going to get into how Dune approaches technology.

[D]

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[B]

All right, we're back. I want to talk more about Herbert's approach to technology. I watched a couple interviews with him and read some stuff, and he was interested in technology. He said you can't run away from it. You have to engage, you have to interface. So he wanted to write again, this is the thing that's tripping me up. He wanted to write about technology, but the story he chose to tell is like, after these people have eradicated technology, sort of, yes.

[A]

But the idea is humanity itself is a technology, that ideas are a technology. I don't mean to get all like, weird and academic here, but I think what he's trying to express is that we tend to think of technology as something we build, something that physically exists in the way that like a telephone will or a computer. But what I think he's saying is that when you don't have those things, you're forced to develop the mind as a technology. So the book, the world of the book, depends on human beings and their mental capabilities to do things like travel from one star system to the next.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so two things. The human mind is a technology and natural resources are a technology that the ecology becomes a technology. So the spice melange is the technology that fuels space travel. It fuels long life. It fuels the ability of people to like mentats, basically. They're all spice melange addicts, right?

[B]

Is that what they are?

[A]

Yeah, that's why they have the certain. They have, like, lips that reflect a constant consumption of spice melange. And eyes, obviously, the eyes of Abad.

[C]

So were they human computers?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Ha. Yeah, well, they're. They turn into computers.

[C]

Okay, okay.

[A]

So they're trained from a young age with the use of spice melange as like a, like a loss.

[B]

Adderall.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Next level Adderall. If you try to come off of, you die.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. So the idea is that humanity itself and our ideas and the way we develop our own mental state is a form of technology and that we should view it that way.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Probably sound crazy.

[B]

And I, and I think what's interesting is like I associate his generation of sci fi writer with like right leaning libertarianism that's like kind of like easy. You can generally like map onto like what Heinlein is thinking about. And I find what he's cooking way more complex and in an interesting and fascinating way.

[A]

It's profoundly morally dubious, the book. Yeah, it's morally complex. One example is the way the Fremen are portrayed.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Like he became very, I think, infatuated by Bedouin culture, Berber culture, Mongolian culture. And the way they're portrayed is at once it shows that he has a sort of nostalgic view of like Marxism and collectivism. Right. Like that like people can live collectively and literally give their bodies back to each other, the water from their bodies to survive at that level. But then at the same time they are vicious and brutal and merciless towards each other and towards their enemies when they need to be. Meaning that like the Fremen are basically like no nonsense people. They are not sentimental. They are very much about survival and they will kill enemies on the battlefield if they need to. If you're weak, they will drop you. And I think what it is is a morally complex view and not like necessarily romanticizing any of the characters in the book. It's pushing the listener in a time of black and white thinking in the United States during the Red Scare and all of that stuff to start thinking a little bit more complex about world affairs and understanding these things come from somewhere.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

So I want to move and start talking about religion here because you could read this as an anti religious book, right? You could say like, oh, messiahs are bad because Paul is gonna lead them all into hell and kill a bunch of people in the name of religion. And religion sort of like the psychology of religion and how people get swept up in these stories. They're all like brainwashed. You know, you can do the whole anti religion thing and yet he treats it with such dignity and respect. Like there is a beauty to what like the Fremen people are doing.

[C]

I mean, While reading it, I was distracted. Like, wait, this is a quote from Ecclesia. While we're going along. I think it also speaks to. I think in the book there is a respect for death in a way that I found interesting. Like, there is a moment when Paul has to kill someone. And Jessica, his mother, Lady Jessica, has to be like, you just killed someone. How do you feel about that? Like, it's not discarded in a way that I feel like in contemporary art, it's kind of like you kill someone. Like, isn't that cool? Go past, like, no, this is a life changing thing that happens. And the Fremen treated as such and respects the body. When you like, pause the ritual of getting the water from the body, there is like a ceremony and the respect to it that shows a spirituality called spirituality.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

That I was really drawn to and thought. Interesting.

[A]

What I think is fascinating about that is Herbert read, like, in preparation for this, did years of research. That's what's interesting. Like, he took courses, I think, at University of Oregon and read about Islamic history and military history. And one of the things I think is a commentary on is like, pre modern warfare. I mean, he's writing this on the heels of like, atom bomb being dropped and of the horrors of World War II, where a lot of those deaths were happening either through a gun or a bomb. And I think what he's basically doing is harkening back to like, pre modern warfare. You had to kill someone with a sword or a knife. It was brutal up close. Exactly. And so it conjured this sense of like, honoring the person you killed. That like the death itself, it was so up close and so upfront that you had to develop some kind of mythology around it to justify it in your human brain. But I will say this. I think he's less anti religious and. And more anti determinism, anti prophecy. It's like he respects faith systems as, so far as they serve us in our lives. Like meaning. You make sense of death through a ceremony. You make sense of the fact that you don't have any water around you by creating a religion around water. Right. That all, to him seems to make sense. But then when it comes to someone saying, I see the future, follow me. He seems really deeply suspicious of that, which makes sense in an era of like Stalin and Mao and American mythology. Right?

[C]

Yeah. And really questionable fundamentalism and being like, question everything, but also, like, have your rituals.

[B]

All right, let's take one more quick break and then let's talk about whether or not Herbert is a good writer. And then we're going to give out some book recommendations, too. Stick with us.

[F]

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[B]

Where I sort of want to almost wrap up here is ask is Herbert a good writer? If we're talking about on a sentence.

There'S the chapter where Kynes, who's like a C tier character, he plays an important part, but he's not like a main character. But when this character dies, I don't know if that's the way, but it sort of deviates really quick from the main thrust of the narrative. And there's this intimate conversation that he has. I can't quite tell if he's imagining it, but with his father right as he's facing death. And I was like, oh, for all of my dogging on this book about being too mired in history and world building, this is a moment of quiet beauty. If I can get four more of those, you know what I mean? This would be a 10 out of 10 books.

[A]

Well, have you read all of this is the only.

[B]

This is the only one I've.

[C]

I have never read a single one.

[B]

I'm messiah curious.

[A]

I'm like, all right, so if you can get to God, Emperor of Dune, which I think is three more books. Fourth book. Fourth, yes, if you can get there. Or the third book. I'm sorry, third book. Children of Dune is the fourth book. The third book. That book is like philosophical banger after philosophical banger. The writing in that book, I think, is the best of the series. But There are moments of it in the previous book, which is what you're pointing out, where it's deeply thoughtful and philosophical and emotional and just like, beautiful.

[B]

It's like a pretty section to read, 100%.

[A]

Or I mean, the Litany Against Fear, which is in the first book. Right. The, you know, fear is the mind killer. Like, that's the reason why it's like people have it tattooed on their bodies or that it's like had this kind of extended life is. Cause it's such a beautifully written paragraph. But I agree with you in this book. Is he the best writer in the world? No. What makes the book special are the ideas in it versus the way that those ideas are expressed.

[C]

I gotta get through like 1200 more pages.

[B]

This is like when someone recommends a show and it's like, oh, season one and two is ass. But like season three, baby, that's like. It's like, bro, man.

[A]

No, I would, you know, I hear you. I wouldn't go. I still do really love the book. And I think the reason why everybody should read it is that.

[B]

Yeah, that was my last question. Why should we read this today?

[A]

It gives you a better understanding of the world we live in now, why the world is the way it is, why certain wars are being fought, why certain resources matter, why we are in the place we are. And gives you kind of a. Both my opinion, meta view of that, but also deeply personal one that in the end, all of us are living within circumstances that none of us decided. And every day we have to make decisions based on outside influences that are in our head, that are in our bodies, that dictate everything around us. And that we should be a little bit more forgiving of ourselves because we're living within that context. And we should be really suspicious of anyone that tells us that they have all the answers. And I think the final thing I'll say, for me, this is very personal, but I think its portrayal of Islamic thought is the most respectful. Even though it's flawed at times and shows some of his misunderstandings of it, it still portrays a deep respect from a white American author writing in the 1950s and 60s and beyond. I think it's really important for people to understand Islam from this perspective, from one that doesn't otherize it, that paints it as an integral part of the future world. And so for that reason, I think it's really important for people as a exercise to read this book, especially when they're young.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think this book is definitely worth reading today because, like, I said, I've been, like, getting Dune pills. Like, my immediate reactions to it were a little rude. Like, you know, the text from the boys at the group chat who were all Dune fans. I was like, boys, what do you want? What do you want? But then it's like, oh, I had a question. I was, like, thinking about, oh, let me go back and read more about what this question he poses, and then we can go think about that thing. This week has been a lot of fun. Just, like, thinking about this freaking book and just, like, unwrapping it and being like, wait, what is it saying? It's not saying nothing. And I was like. But then I gave it a couple days. I was like, he's saying a lot.

[A]

It's saying a lot.

[B]

He's saying a lot.

[A]

It's a lot. Maybe too much. I mean, that's one of the critics is like, there's a lot of ideas mashed into it.

[B]

Yeah. Parker, are you. How are you feeling?

[C]

Okay. Earlier this week, I was really hostile towards the book. I will say I enjoyed. Then I realized I enjoyed the first and second book. And then I felt book three inside of the book. Jumped the shock a little bit with the Abomination child. And then I was like, what is this?

[B]

The precocious dog?

[C]

The precocious daughter.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Running around, like, with an adult's voice, like, biting people and killing people.

[C]

I was like, all right, Herbert. But I will say, because I enjoyed two thirds of it, I would recommend it.

[B]

Nice. We did it. We did it.

[C]

I can say I read Dune now when a guy at a party is like, but have you read Dune?

[A]

No, you can say, but have you really read.

[C]

Have you really read Dune?

[A]

I understand that ecology drives technology and culture.

[B]

All right, let's wrap up by saying, if you like this, recommend that. Parker, do you want to go first?

[C]

Okay. All right. So this is full circle for me because. So our first episode was about Pride Prejudice.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Which is related.

[B]

I'm seeing a lot of threads.

[C]

It is related to this. So years ago, I watched the movie the Jane Austen Book Club, and in it, there's a guy in the book club who is a big Sci Fi fan and is trying to convince a girl in the book club to read Ursula Le Guin.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And because of that, it got me to read Ursula Le Guin in my early 20s. And so I recommended, like, the very popular Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula. I just. That wasn't an excited.

[A]

No, I have never read it.

[C]

No, no, no. It's about, like, gender on different planets. And it. It involves a guy coming onto a planet and not trying to be a messiah or anything, but just trying to understand the people and is stuck in such a binary mindset that he's trying to, like, navigate this world.

[B]

Yeah. Mine is a comic book series. I brought it with me because I read it on the train. Called Saga by Brian K. Vaughn and illustrated by Fiona Staples. It is similar Montague Capulet, like two warring tribes, the two fall in love, have a child, and then they're just like on the run. And one of the people in the relationship is a pacifist. And that gets, like, tested a lot throughout the book about, like, how, how. How much he's willing to sacrifice for his beliefs in pacifism.

[A]

It's been recommended to me.

[B]

It's so good when you, when you think about, like, grand space operas, this doesn't have like, as much of, like, the politics in it, but it is like a vast scape of, like, cultures and peoples and worlds that they're running away from.

[A]

Yeah, my turn.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a completely different story, but for people who like the detail in the world building of Dune in the entire series. Another very popular sci fi book from a little bit later than this first book is Rendezvous with Rama, which Denis Villeneuve is actually apparently making a film out of. Is this Netflix?

[B]

I've never heard about this.

[A]

What is this Rendezvous with Rama? It's by Arthur C. Clarke, another very famous sci fi writer of that time. It's a short book and without giving too much away, basically what it's about is an oblong shape, what they think is a meteorological kind of rock or something basically appears in our solar system. And so a ship is sent to intercept it, get on board and see what it is, because it's behaving like a spaceship and it's about the astronauts who board it, what they see. And it's very richly detailed and it's immersive. Right. You feel like you're there with them and you're in their heads the way you do in Dune.

[B]

Damn. Ronci, thanks a lot. This has been a lot of fun.

[A]

Are you kidding me? I was waiting for this call. This is so much fun. I really enjoy talking about books, so this is a lot of fun. Thank you.

[B]

And now for this week's Fona Fan. I had the pleasure of talking Dune with Pierce Brown, author of the sci fi series Red Rising. Hey, Piers. How you doing, man?

[E]

I'm good, man. How you doing, Andrew?

[B]

Good, good, good. I've been On a journey, a Dune journey. I've been, like, up and down with this book, but I want to know your history. When did you first discover Dune?

[E]

So Dune was one of the, I guess, two books that my dad gave me. And it was almost like I'd been. If I was in a medieval tale, I'd be given the sword of my ancestors.

[B]

Right.

[E]

Lord of the Rings was given to me by my dad with great gravitas, and so was Dune. And they were big books for him when he was a kid. And so I discovered Dune through my dad when I was maybe 11 or 12. And I certainly did not understand all of it, but what I immediately appreciated was the sense of mythology in it. When you read something young, it forms almost like a temple in your mind. And Dune has always been a temple that I can go in and visit. Hmm.

[B]

When you started writing your own stuff, did the way Herbert was, like, layering, like, the politics and the world building influence how you approach that aspect to your stories?

[E]

Probably more so architecturally than any other author, because he bases his world building off of scarcity need. So what he does is he creates an impasse. So if there is no spice, then everything shuts down. The Guildman cannot navigate the starships, the Bene Gessoit lose their power, people lose pleasure. So he creates this sense of importance in a place and then discovers the drama around it. And so each one is its own political science parable. So it helped influence my books from the first three in my Red Rising series to the last four, because I wanted to show what 10 years of having a God complex and being treated like a God can do to an individual.

[B]

Yeah. If you could talk to Frank Herbert about storytelling, what do you think you'd ask him?

[E]

I don't think I'd ask him about storytelling. I'd want to talk political science with him. I think that storytelling is, how would I say it? The evidence is there. He's written his thesis, he's written his white paper. What I would ask him is, what would he change? What does he think got misread or misrepresented and people still don't get less so, like, you know, typos and things like that or character decisions. But what got lost in the shuffle? And what's a key misapprehension people have of your work?

[B]

I did like a. Before I started reading the book, I did a quick skim of his politics and it's like, you know, it's like, oh, you know, vaguely like right leaning Republican, da, da, da, da, and then you read the book and, like, the main emperor, bad guy runs, like a mega corporation. And it's a. You know, and it's like, you know, which is like destroying the planets. I was just trying to wrap my head about that.

[E]

I think he's the rare breed of. Yeah, he's a conservative ecologist.

[B]

Yeah, very. Like Roosevelt, right? Very. Yeah.

[E]

I think it's because Frank Herbert's politics don't really fit into our framework. You know, we have these gestalts now that we look at, and so we can, like, judge someone where they kind of stand on the spectrum. But I think that the spectrum, you know, had a few more dimensions, but in his mind at least, perhaps.

[B]

Yeah. Now, I wonder if Dune, because of the Villeneuve movies, if Dune has reached this sort of cultural moment. I'll hear it in random, as people referencing Dune, as if we're talking a shared language. Right. We'll be talking about something else, like, oh, you know, like in Dune, and they won't even continue. And I'll be like, I don't realize we're there with Dune yet.

[E]

It is emotionally rewarding to see because I've always been a champion of it. But at the same time, I think that Star wars is popular because it's so accessible as well. I'm not saying that's the only reason Star wars is accessible, but it is so much more accessible than Dune, particularly with what's coming in Dune in the third movie. I'll be very interested to see, because Frank Herbert's thesis has not yet been even addressed. And it seems like Villeneuve. I mean, I've heard him say in interviews that the reason he became a director was to do the Dune movie. So I have to imagine he's going to stick to Frank's thesis. And that thesis is not like a Star wars thesis of, you know, good triumphs. It's more complicated than that. I think it'll be like the debate between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, in a way, if you grow up on Lord of the Rings. I feel like you're much more judgmental of Harry Potter.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. My last question for you. I just read the first one and I'm interested in diving further, but make the sales pitch for me to go out and buy Dune Messiah right now.

[E]

Dune Messiah. It has more interpersonal drama than Dune. It's less stately. There's a lot more game playing and mysteries and politics in it, as well as assassination attempts. And you get to understand Paul in a way that you didn't in the first book, even when he's this godlike figure that can see the future, he's struggling with a very human problem. And his relationship with Shani takes front and center stage. And I think that, you know, in Dune, so much of the excitement was conserved, like the last 60 pages, maybe the last 50 pages. Right. And I feel like Dune Messiah is far more present in its scenes and it's less reads less like a history and more like espionage thriller.

[B]

Okay, I think you convinced me. All right. All right, Piers, thank you so much. It was really great talking to you.

[E]

Thanks for having me, Andrew.

[B]

And folks, be sure to check out Piers Red Rising and Iron Gold Trilogies out now. This episode was produced by Sheriff Vincent and Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan Sullivan.

[C]

Engineering support this week from Jimmy Keeley. And our executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni.

[B]

Thank you for listening to books we've loved from npr. See you next time.

[C]

Bye.

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