Revisiting ‘Kitchen Confidential’

Summary

NPR's Book of the Day: Revisiting ‘Kitchen Confidential’

Episode Date: December 13, 2025
Host: NPR (Andrew Limbaugh, B.A. Parker)
Guests: Eric Deggans (NPR critic, KN of Journalism at Washington and Lee University), Samin Nosrat (chef and author)

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Overview

This episode of NPR’s Book of the Day dives deep into Anthony Bourdain’s influential memoir, Kitchen Confidential, reflecting on why the book still resonates 25 years after publication. Host Andrew Limbaugh, co-host B.A. Parker, and critic Eric Deggans share personal connections to Bourdain’s work, discuss its cultural impact, and unpack how it has shaped portrayals of kitchens and chefs. The episode also features insights from chef and author Samin Nosrat, who brings a practitioner's perspective to the conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Vibrant Prose and Lasting Impact

• Initial Impressions:
  The hosts and Deggans note how Bourdain’s writing immediately stood out as something more than "just a chef's memoir":

  "…the writing is so vibrant that it's obvious that he could have just made a living as a writer." (A, 00:00; repeated, 13:43)

• Audiobook Experience:
  Deggans listened to Bourdain narrate the audiobook, intensifying the sense of authenticity and charisma.

  "Anthony Bourdain was hanging with me, describing the restaurant industry while I was driving to and from work. And man, I really missed it when I finished the book." (A, 03:37)

• Cultural Ubiquity:
  The panel recognizes how the book inspired a raft of TV portrayals and cultural archetypes of chefs, re-shaping how society views restaurant work.

2. Generational and Personal Reflections

• Coming-of-age Influence:
  Andrew shares how encountering Bourdain as a teen left an indelible mark:

  "I saw his show… I would have been around 15 or 16 at this time. Highly impressionable. And it definitely, definitely changed me." (B, 02:45)

• Bourdain as Cultural Icon vs. Critique:
  Parker shares, with affectionate skepticism, how Bourdain’s persona can feel performative:

  "He's like, I'm a bad boy. But he has to, like, play up to the mythos that has been, like, ascribed to him… not fully aware of the privilege." (C, 07:06)

  They compare Bourdain’s “Fonz vibes” (cool, rebellious, but somewhat staged) (C, 06:54).

3. Class, Privilege, and Kitchen Hierarchy

• Working-Class Mythology and Reality:
  Deggans notes a tension in Bourdain’s image as working-class hero given his background:

  "Already you got sort of the hypocrisy of this guy who went to a nice college whose mom helped get his first essay that led to the publication of the book." (A, 08:51)

• Privilege & The Reality of Restaurant Work:
  Both hosts and Deggans probe how Bourdain’s insider-outsider status colors his perspective on kitchen life and on issues like misogyny and racism.

4. Masculinity, Bravado, and the ‘Bad Boy’ Chef

• Style and Substance:
  Bourdain’s voice—brash, cocky, honest—defines the book’s appeal, but is also critiqued for sometimes failing at self-reflection or distancing emotionally:

  "I kept waiting for some kind of real self-reflection because everything feels at a distance while he's talking about everything in the book." (C, 19:19)

• Romanticizing Toxicity:
  The podcast connects Kitchen Confidential to more recent depictions (e.g., The Bear, Burnt, The Menu), and discusses if Bourdain was glamorizing or merely reporting on kitchen dysfunction (B, 22:02).

5. Kitchen Culture in Context

• Insider Tips & Shifting Practices:
  The book's revelations about what (not) to order and how kitchens operate fascinated readers, even if some advice is now dated:

  "Don't order seafood on Sundays or Mondays because the chef is probably trying to get rid of the stuff that he bought fresh on Fridays…" (A, 16:14)

• Lasting Influence & Critical Distance:
  After Bourdain’s death, re-reading the book reveals signs of his internal struggles that, in hindsight, stand out (B, 17:24).

6. Bourdain’s Legacy and Evolving Culture

• Shifting Perceptions:
  Parker notes how Bourdain's later career, especially via Parts Unknown, reflects greater empathy and self-awareness, compared to the early memoir era:

  "He was finally able to see outside of himself and see the world around him..." (C, 23:33)

• Reproduction of Power Structures:
  "It's counterculture, but it's just the same culture in, like, a funny hat." (C, 24:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bourdain’s Writing:

  "I'm being told this story by somebody who has a tremendous amount of expertise as a chef, but is also, like, a super talented writer." (A, 13:43)

• On Privilege & Mythmaking:

  "A guy went to Vassar and got his story published in the New Yorker." (C, 09:37)

• On Toxicity & Culture:

  "Bourdain is sort of the classic sort of non racist, non misogynist. He's not that, but he's not doing much in his space to change it." (A, 22:39)

• On Nostalgia:

  "Kitchen Confidential feels like such a New York book… being a New Yorker, it made me miss a New York I was never really a part of." (B, 31:28)

• On Self-Reflection:

  "I kept waiting for some kind of real self reflection because everything feels at a distance…" (C, 19:19)

• On the Persistent Allure:

  "Great writing always, always inspires me." (A, 28:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:47: Opening banter, setup, & quick book synopsis
• 01:52–03:05: Hosts’ personal encounters with Bourdain and memoir’s formative impact
• 03:06–05:33: Eric Deggans on consuming the book as audiobook & Bourdain’s TV persona
• 05:35–07:34: Parker's exposure to the Kitchen Confidential sitcom & critique of Bourdain’s persona (“Fonz vibes”)
• 08:11–10:00: Discussion on class, privilege, and the working-class “myth” of Bourdain
• 11:16–13:43: Shift to the rise of chef celebrity, Bourdain's rise, and his approach to writing
• 16:14–17:24: Bourdain’s consumer advice & panel discussing the practical effects of the book
• 17:24–20:04: Panel reflects on Bourdain’s internal struggles and lack of deep introspection
• 20:51–24:50: Influence on portrayals of chefs/kitchens in pop culture (The Bear, Burnt, etc.)
• 24:22–25:00: “Counterculture” is just dominant culture in disguise—brilliant metaphor
• 25:45–28:17: Should we still read Kitchen Confidential? Each panelist offers perspective
• 28:25–32:16: "If you like this, read that"—recommendations (Simon’s Homicide, Zhang’s Land of Milk and Honey, Goodman’s Meet Me in the Bathroom)
• 32:27–38:28: Chef Samin Nosrat’s interview—her late reading, critical view, and thoughts on the impact of Bourdain’s memoir on kitchen culture

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Insights from Samin Nosrat (Chef Interview Segment)

• Timing & Context:
  Samin came to the book later, already aware of its mythos and its glamorization of “agro, gonzo kitchen culture.”

  "I was having my own experience as a young cook, and it was already so intense… it was glorifying a type of… kitchen culture that I was very much on the fringes of but already... traumatized by." (F, 32:42)

• Representation & Identity:
  She describes her unique perspective as a woman and person of color in an elite, white, and male-dominated restaurant world.

  "I didn't have language or context… only in retro, retrospect… I could then sort of put that into perspective." (F, 36:22)

• Influence of Bourdain’s Persona:
  Many young "acolytes" entered kitchen work inspired by Bourdain’s mythos, not always fostering healthy dynamics.

• The Book’s Value for Today’s Readers:

  "I still think it's really extraordinary writing… but I hope… this book is not held up as like the Bible and instruction manual for… kitchen behavior, you know." (F, 37:38)

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Final Thoughts: Is Kitchen Confidential Still Worth Reading?

• Eric Deggans:
  Absolutely, especially for Bourdain fans and as a pivotal cultural artifact. The audiobook is a way "to spend more time with Anthony Bourdain." (A, 25:54)
• B.A. Parker:
  It's influential and an easy, compelling read; curious about the sequels (Medium Raw). (C, 26:29)
• Andrew Limbaugh:
  It's a masterclass in voice and copy; the style remains uniquely inspiring for writers, even now. (B, 27:41)
• Samin Nosrat:
  Exceptional writing, but best not used as a template for kitchen culture or behavior. (F, 37:38)

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Book Recommendations ("If you like this, read that")

• Eric Deggans: Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets by David Simon
• B.A. Parker: Land of Milk and Honey by C. Pam Zhang
• Andrew Limbaugh: Meet Me in the Bathroom by Lizzie Goodman

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Tone and Language

The conversation balances critical distance, humor, and affection for Bourdain and his work. The hosts are open about the book’s flaws—lack of deep self-examination, its “counterculture” affect, and the contradictions of Bourdain’s myth—but ultimately admire his literary talent and cultural contributions.

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Conclusion

Episode delivers a thoughtful and nuanced reconsideration of Kitchen Confidential—acknowledging its artistic strengths, conflicted legacy, and ongoing influence, while questioning the values and biases embedded in Bourdain’s world. The episode closes with multiple perspectives for today’s reader: read for the writing, recognize the flaws, and understand the book’s impact in context.

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Transcript

[A]

You hear, oh, it's a book by somebody who's been a chef for a long time talking about the food industry. Okay. And then you open it up, and the writing is so vibrant that it's obvious that he could have just made a living as a writer. And so you're like, oh, okay.

[B]

You're listening to books we've loved from.

[C]

Npr, the book show where we reread old favorites and tell you why they still matter today.

[B]

I'm Andrew Limbaugh.

[C]

I'm B.A. parker. Parker, how you doing? Andrew?

[B]

You're gonna learn a lot today about me. You're gonna learn.

[C]

I feel like I know too much.

[B]

You're gonna learn a lot about me. Yeah.

[C]

Through what we read.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. From today's book.

[C]

I don't know if that's in your favor, my friend.

[B]

I know. It's no good. It's no good. Folks, today we are talking about Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain. And here joining us to also learn a lot more about me is NPR critic at large Eric Deggans. He's also the KN of journalism and media ethics at Washington and Lee University. What's up, Eric?

[A]

Hey, man. And, you know, I know you pretty well. We work together at NPR for a long time. I don't think you're gonna surprise me.

[B]

Okay, cool. Yeah. All right. So you already clocked me as a. As a kind of Bourdain guy.

[A]

Of course, dude.

[C]

Respectful.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so first, real quick, for folks who haven't read Kitchen Confidential, I'm just gonna run through a quick synopsis. It was first published in the year 2000. So K. Confidential is a memoir from a then unknown Chef Cockley, revealing to an unsuspecting public what's going on behind the scenes at restaurants. You've got drinking, drug use, dirty jokes. You've also got camaraderie, petty crime, and also some really beautiful cooking. There you go.

[C]

Great, Great summary. But wait, okay, Andrew, why did. Why did you pick this book?

[B]

Okay, I picked this book for this project that we are doing, Parker, because I feel like we needed a memoir. There's so many, I think, splashy memoirs that do have a large impact on the culture, and I feel like we needed to sort of represent that in some way. And I think this memoir was a big one, I should say. Anthony Bourdain died by suicide in 2018 after a long career in TV. And we're going to be talking about that for a bit later on. So just a heads up for listeners, but I first ran into Bourdain on the first season of Top Chef, the reality TV show on Bravo, you know, the cooking show. And he showed up and everybody was like, oh, my God, Bourdain's here. Bourdain's here. And they're all like whispering and like scared. I'm like, who is this guy? And then I saw a show and then I was like, okay. He's also. I heard he wrote a book and so I went and got it. And so I would have been around 15 or 16 at this time.

[C]

Highly impressionable.

[B]

So young, Highly impressionable. And it definitely, definitely changed me.

[A]

You gotta find a photo and like, put that up while you're talking. See what you look like.

[B]

I had an emo cut. You know, my bangs are down.

[C]

Yeah, I understand. I was a Dorothy Parker teen. You were an Anthony Bourdain teen. It happens.

[B]

Eric, when did you first read it?

[A]

I feel embarrassed to admit this, but I didn't read the book until you guys suggested talking about it.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[A]

And I didn't read the book. I listened to the audiobook of it.

[B]

We're counting that as.

[A]

Which was amazing because Anthony Bourdain recorded it.

[B]

I want to tell you about the.

[E]

Dark recesses of the restaurant underbelly. A subculture whose centuries old militaristic hierarchy.

[A]

And ethos of rum buggery and the lash make for a mix of unwavering.

[B]

Order and nerve shattering chaos.

[A]

Anthony Bourdain was hanging with me, describing the restaurant industry while I was driving to and from work. And man, I really missed it. When I finished the book. I should probably just start reading the sequel. But it was wonderful. And I realized that so much of things that I'd seen in TV and movies, so many depictions of restaurant life and restaurant culture had come from this book. And I'm sure we'll talk about that later.

[B]

Yeah. As a longtime TV critic, did you. How deep were you on the like, no reservations, parts unknown. His TV work, Do you have a long relationship with those shows?

[A]

I was passingly familiar with that stuff. I sort of watched his rise in sort of the travel world, the unscripted travel world. You know, I think part of it for me was that until recently, I've always been really intimidated by the world of food culture. And so when he started doing a show that seemed to be more of a travelogue where he was going to communities and hanging out with the people and talking as much about the cities and the cultures where these things were made as talking about the food. I think that's when I really started to get into it. So it took me a while to hear about what he was doing. And then when I watched Parts Unknown, I was like, oh, yeah, this is the way so many of the great meals of my life have been enjoyed. Sitting in the street, beating something out of a bowl, and I'm not exactly sure what it is.

[B]

Scooters going by.

[A]

I don't feel like I'm, you know, gonna be judged because I don't know what kind of wine goes with what kind of fish or, you know, why this particular brand of scallops is to be, you know, revered. And I, you know, I didn't know, of course, that he's. He wasn't like that either, but. But once I saw him in Parts Unknown, I was like, you know, this guy is charismatic. He knows what he's talking about. He really values sort of street level cooking and culture. And that, of course, comes through in the book.

[B]

Yeah. Parker, what about you?

[C]

I think my context for Anthony Bourdain is, sadly, there was a one season sitcom on Fox called Kitchen Confidential that came on when I was a teenager that has the DVD starring Bradley Cooper. Starring Bradley Cooper as Jack Bourdain. And it was like, I think it was produced by Darren Starr.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, so I knew of him because of the show and I, in passing, like, I knew who he was. I'd seen the Roadrunner documentary about Bourdain in 2021, and that was like my context for him. Also very controversial documentary, but this was the first time that I'd read anything, any of his work. And also just like connecting the man to, I guess, the mythology of him now. Great prose. He's like a great writer. So fun. Very much a man of his time of like the early 2000s. Respectfully, he is not for me. I know why a certain man of a certain time or a certain boy of a certain time would be like, oh, he's so cool. In my mind, he gives off the Fonz vibes. I was just like, oh, I'm cool. I wear my leather shirt.

[B]

I'm gonna wear a leather. Yeah.

[C]

And I listen to the Sex but Pistols while I cut scallops.

[A]

She was so nice about delivering sort of the ultimate put down.

[B]

Yeah, there's a phoniness. You're sensing a phoniness to it.

[C]

There's a poserdom for me. I was like, you know, like, he's like, I'm a bad boy. But he has to, like, play up to the mythos that has been, like, ascribed to him, which I recognize. But also, he's like, you know, I'm frank. I mean, I'm honest. I just got. I tell you, like, it is. I just, you know, if you don't like it, you don't like it. But also not fully aware of the privilege.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[C]

I will say we gonna get to that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Listen, Eric, there's some. And I got the annotated edition. So it's like, it's 12 years later, Bourdain goes back to the book and writes notes in the margins.

[A]

Oh, man, I should see, that's why I should have.

[C]

And, like, it ends with him writing, no regrets. And I'm like, you got a few regrets here, buddy. But I loved his writing. It's like, I don't know, it's like when you read BURROUGHS or like, mid 20th century writers who he adores who are just like, you know, are we sexist? Yes. But I will defend you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One of the things that struck me about this book is it felt very much like the work I'd seen, for example, David Simon do in his books Homicide, Life on the street, in the Corner, and also in the Wire. And the reason I say that is because Bourdain champions this sort of working class hero kind of vibe. He has a really strict set of values that earn respect from him in the kitchen space. If you're on time, if you do your job without complaining, if you know what's expected of you, if you don't call in sick, it's hard to live it up. Yeah, don't call and sit.

[C]

People are sneezing on that branzino left and right.

[A]

Never miss a day. You know, that kind of stuff. And also this idea that he was standing up for the working class Latino workers and also, you know, giving props to women who could survive this environment that he said was misogynist. Right. But in the middle of all of that. Right. You know, he's sort of the educated liberal dude who comes into this working class environment and upholds all these values. So already you got sort of the hypocrisy of this guy who went to a nice college whose mom helped get his first essay that led to the publication of the book. His mom, apparently, according to the New York Times, passed an essay that he did to someone she knew at the New Yorker and that got his first New Yorker piece published.

[C]

A guy went to Vassar and got his story published in the New Yorker.

[B]

That's the dream, baby.

[A]

Yeah. So here's A guy who's educated and connected, but he becomes sort of a working class hero, which is already kind of a weird vibe. But on top of that saying, well, it's a misogynist environment, but that's the way it has to be, or that's just the way it is. That's the thing. That's kind of a drag.

[B]

All right, I want to take a quick break right here, and then when we get back, we'll talk more about Anthony Bourdain as a person and dig a bit more into the book.

[D]

This message comes from Mint mobile. Starting at $15 a month, make the [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront payment for 3 months 5 gigabyte plan equivalent to $15 a month. Taxes and fees Extra first 3 months only. See Terms support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your Corner and get 50% off your first coaching session at Strawberry Me. NPR this message comes from Carvana. The Carvana value Tracker shows you your car's worth. Check it anytime, track changes and sell when the timing feels right. Use Carvana Value Tracker to track your car's value today.

[B]

Okay, we're back. Before, we were just talking about our personal relationships to Anthony Bourdain and the book Kitchen Confidential. But really quick, I'm going to run through sort of the trajectory of the book. Eric, like you mentioned, the book first started as a piece in the New Yorker, right? It was titled Don't Eat before reading this. And it went, you know, whatever. People used to call things going viral back then, but it went like viral for 1999 and folks were reading it and it went big enough that he got a book deal out of it. From there, that is when Bourdain started his TV career. Even though he spends a decent portion of the book sort of dunking on celebrity TV chefs, right? He sort of becomes the monster, right? And, you know, becomes everything he's making fun of. And he meets some of the people. Like in the version of the book I have, which is like a republished version, he's like, in the, in the afterword, he's like, oh, I met all of these dudes I was making fun of. And for the most part they're all, like, really nice, you know, Lugazi isn't Ewok like. Yeah, yeah. They're just, like, really chill dudes. And I was just, like, being a jerk. Yeah.

[C]

He took that leather jacket off and was like, my bad. Maybe foam food is good.

[B]

I can't judge.

[A]

Who am I to judge when it's done by somebody? I think it's cool.

[C]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think on reading this book this most recent time, it kind of clicked for me that Bourdain, to me, is a great writer who just happens to find cooking, and that is his vehicle for writing. The blood of a writer is still in here.

[C]

Even that was poetic, Andrew.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

Well, and it's interesting in the book that he. Even in the book he talks about that he had had other books that he'd worked on.

[B]

Yeah, I think he. So there's. He wrote a couple of crime novels, too. Like, that was a big thing. Yeah, he was.

[A]

So there was a sense that he was active, pretty active as a writer even before he did this book. So.

[B]

Yeah, I think what comes through in this book, though, because, like, Bourdain as a person is arrogant, is cocky, is brash, and you can hear that in the writing in a really well done way. Like, Eric, I know you. You read the. You listened to the audiobook, so you literally heard his voice. But I feel like even reading on the page, his voice is so, like, vibrant and strong and something that I could, like, hear, you know, even without actually hearing it. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And, you know, hearing him read the words, you still could tell that the writing was so powerful. And that's one of the things that. I think that's one reason why the book took off, because you hear, oh, it's a book by somebody who's been a chef for a long time talking about the food industry. Okay. And then you open it up and the writing is so vibrant that it's obvious that he could have just made a living as a writer. And so you're like, oh, okay, I'm being told this story by somebody who has a tremendous amount of expertise as a chef, but is also, like a super talented writer. And that's the combination that I think really helped the book take off. Besides the fact that it was talking about this area of pop culture and personal entertainment that was also just starting to take off. So it was perfectly timed and it was perfectly sort of written.

[C]

But I also think there is sort of a. Not a. I don't want to say classism, but I Think there's a way of like, a regular chef is treated with a sense of like a blue collar nature, instinctively for the New Yorker crowd. Like, oh, he's a chef. Oh, he can write too. Oh my gosh, he speaks it well. He can't pat his head and rub his stomach at the same time. And then you shove him into the limelight with that. For me, that feels like slightly, a bit of condescension, but also there, like, if this was any other.

[A]

Well, I can see why you might feel that way. But I would say that if I picked up a book by an actor and it was written like this, I would have the same reaction. Oh, my God. You know, here's somebody who's really talented at one thing, but here's a talent that's not necessarily connected to that first talent. And they're really good at that too. I mean, I say this as somebody who's read a lot of memoirs by actors and musicians that are terrible, you know. And so I'm always blown away when I read a book by somebody who achieved heights in one profession and it turns out they're a really great writer too. Cause a lot of times those things just don't go together.

[B]

Do you know what's funny is that we actually don't know, like, when it comes to memoirs of actors and musicians. We can see it's like on the screen or listen like, oh, yeah, they're great at that thing. And they help. Never. I've never eaten at Lesle. I tried once and it was too expensive and I have no idea what it's.

[C]

Cause can we get someone to be like, so what was the food like back in the day?

[B]

Yeah, I have no idea if he's a good cook.

[A]

I want to make sure that we mention the consumer aspects of this book. I loved how he advised readers on when to eat in restaurants. Don't order seafood on Sundays or Mondays because the chef is probably trying to get rid of the stuff that he bought fresh on Fridays. Or try to schedule your fine dining for Tuesdays because the chef will be back in the kitchen after a day off on Mondays and maybe ready to try some ambitious stuff. Or don't order great cuts of meat well done because they'll slip in cheaper cuts because you won't be able to taste the difference if it's well done. So again, as somebody who certainly years ago could be intimidated by establishments like that, it was kind of cool to get the inside skinny in that way.

[B]

From the book, I don't think any of that stuff is even like, the stuff about restaurants I doubt is applicable right now. I think just the way the restaurant industry has changed so much. It does. However, I did start cooking after reading this as a. I did start, like, there's a run through of, like, which knives to buy and I couldn't afford any of them, so I just bought the cheaper versions and there's a run through of like, you know, how to.

[A]

Do that, what to spend your money on.

[B]

Yeah. What to spend your. Or like, what are the steps to master first? And I started, like, chopping a lot. Yeah, it's. It's a real thing. The book hit the bestseller list again in 2018 after Bourdain died by suicide. And I know I, I went back and read the book after he died, almost like to revisit an old friend, call it like in mourning or whatever. Right. And I think what struck me was how many red flags there were. It's easy to say this in hindsight, but when I was reading it in 2018, 2019, I just thought like, wow, this is a portrait of a man struggling. Right. Just because you stopped doing hard drugs doesn't mean you aren't still fighting with stuff. I don't know, what did you guys think reading it, knowing what eventually happened to Bourdain?

[A]

I mean, one of the things that was interesting to me about this book is that even though it's supposedly a memoir, there are major chunks of his life that he doesn't examine very much. You know, we just hear about his girlfriend who becomes his wife sort of obliquely. You know, like, it's only when those situations impact the work, that's when you hear a little bit about it. You know, working in Baltimore is inconvenient because, you know, he doesn't know drug dealers down there.

[C]

So sorry. So sorry. But.

[A]

But at any rate, you know, so. So I think that's one thing that's kind of a weakness of, of the book is that it doesn't give you a lot of insight into that part of his life. But he does admit that it was something that was an, an issue for him. And you do get a sense of that beneath the bravado and beneath this very incisive, sort of searing look at other people, that he could apply that to himself and that there might have been a fair amount of sort of tortured self criticism going on there that is only hinted at in the book.

[C]

Yeah, I think that was one of the flaws that I found in reading the book. I wrote down that I kept waiting for Some kind of real self reflection because everything feels at a distance while he's talking about everything in the book. And yet, like, when he talks about drug use, it is mentioned casually or as an aside to the thing that he's trying to focus on.

[A]

Right. I will say, you know, at the risk of really, you know, making a leap, when you see the character Carmi Brazato in the Bear and you see his self loathing and how his perfectionism makes his life torture, it's not hard to imagine that somebody like Anthony Bourdain might have been struggling with something similar.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think that's a leap at all. All right, on that note, I want to take a really quick break and then when we get back, talk about some of the more cultural ramifications of Kitchen Confidential.

[D]

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[B]

If we're talking about this image of chefs in popular culture, right. Besides Bourdain and all of his TV shows.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Besides, you know, like you mentioned no reservations and parts unknown, you have stuff like the Bradley Cooper movie Burnt. Right. Or you have the Jon Favreau movie Chef.

[A]

All of which the menu, if you find, if you've seen that one.

[B]

Yeah, the venue. But all, all of these have like a certain, a definitely type of guy in the Bourdain mold. Right. And then I think, you know, Eric, you'd mentioned the bear. There's a pretty explicit scene in the most recent season when Carmi goes back to his childhood bedroom and he holds up a tattered copy of Kitchen Confidential. And I was like, I don't think we needed to. We knew. I knew you had that. You didn't need to show us. You didn't do that.

[C]

I know a casual viewer might not know.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Okay, that's true. It is sort of like from the first season, we knew this was inspired by Bourdain.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

The Toxicity, that one take episode where everyone is kind of like going at each other's throats in the kitchen. Very Bourdain esque, now that I think about it.

[B]

So here's the thing. I think you can make the argument, right, that even though the way Bourdain writes makes it seem very cool and romantic, you could argue that he isn't putting a stamp of approval on how things operate in the kitchen. He is trying to be a reporter, trying to show how things just are in the kitchens. I think you could also make the argument that the Bear says, that is how things are and that's bad. We should try to change that. We should try to make that a little bit better for people.

[C]

They ain't changed it too much.

[B]

They haven't been. They don't change it that much. But I think it's a story of trying to change.

[A]

Yeah, they didn't change it that much. You know, Bourdain is sort of the classic sort of non racist, non misogynist. He's not that, but he's not doing much in his space to change it. And I think that's the step that would make the book feel a little more in step with today's times where if you create a kitchen, I mean, you know, in a weird way, the bear kind of did that, because as abusive as the restaurant culture is shown, the behind the scenes, you know, cooking culture is shown to be, we don't see racism and we don't see misogyny. What we see is just abuse that's visited on everybody. You know, I think that's the one thing that might have made Kitchen Confidential go down a little easier. If there was some sense that instead of just accepting this male dominated culture, once he was in charge of it, why not do things to unwind it?

[C]

You live, you learn. Though, like I will say, like in Roadrunner, the Bourdain that we got later in his life versus the Bourdain we get in the book are two different things. And I think I became a fan of the man he had become with, like no recommendations or parts unknown. And it was because he was finally able to see outside of himself and see the world around him and go like they talk about him going to Haiti or going to, going to Thailand, going to all these places, because I think they said before then all he'd really gone to was France or like gone to Japan for work. And he was able to, like, see outside himself and broaden his perception. And, you know, in the book he may have written, he has no regrets, but I'm sure he had some.

[B]

It's funny how he paints this picture that the chef, that the kitchen is this island of misfits where none of us, like, fit In. In normal society. And so we all found a home in the. In the kitchen. And yet that island of misfits happens just to, like, recreate the power structures of regular degular society. Like, there's no. There's no. You know what I mean?

[C]

It's when, like, there's, like, it's counterculture, but it's just the same culture. In, like, a funny hat.

[B]

Yeah. In a leather jacket and smoking cigarettes. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wait, that should be on a T shirt. That is such an amazing observation.

[B]

Yeah. All right, I want to take a quick break, and then when we get back, we'll talk about why this book is or if this book is still worth reading today. We'll be right back.

[E]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no hidden fees. Plans start at $15 a month. Make the [e-mail] switch. That's mintmobile.com switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month, five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[B]

All right, final question, as always, why should this book be read today? Eric, where are you at?

[A]

Well, for one thing, if you're a Bourdain fan and you experience it the way I did by listening to the audiobook, you just get to spend more time with Anthony Bourdain. And as much as we may have talked his. His weak points, he's an engaging storyteller. He's a charismatic guy. He was really a pivotal figure in media, especially television and books aimed at food culture. And so it's. It's a. It's a great way. It's a great way to spend some time with him and. And get a look at how he was thinking, you know, 25 years ago.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

I think the fact that this book came out 2001. 2000. 2000. And has had such a long influence on the culture, the way that we view kitchens, the way that we view that culture. I read the book, coming in it thinking I was gonna get like Wolf of Wall street in a chef's hat. And I did not get that. I got, like, a lot.

[A]

By the way, somebody should write that book.

[C]

We're far too woke for that now.

[B]

I don't know about that. I don't know about all that. Come on.

[C]

But I think that just to get an understanding of that world. And it's also, like, it's a fairly Quick read. Cause his writing does flow. So I would recommend Kitchen Confidential. I would be curious about Medium Raw now. So that's saying something. There's some books that we've read this year that had sequels or like that.

[B]

You'Re like, never again.

[C]

Like, you're not gonna get. You're not gonna trick me.

[A]

So I know the Okie doke.

[C]

I'm not following for that one. So I'll give. I'll give Bourdain that.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think it's worth reading today, if nothing but for the mastery of voice. I'm not saying, like, if you want to write, you should write exactly like Bourdain, but this is someone who understands how to write on paper. Like, he speaks, you know, in words. Right. And, you know, I'll still throw on an old episode of Parts Unknown or no Reservations when I am struggling with writing copy, like, for myself. Like, I'll, like, take notes on how to write copy from Bourdain, you know, to this day. Right.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Great writing always, always inspires me.

[B]

Yeah. And I think this book is definitely worthwhile for that. All right. I think on that front, let's get into recommendations. If you like this, read that. Eric, you want to go first?

[A]

So. Yeah. So I'm going to continue the sort of bizarre parallel that I drew earlier in the conversation. You know, Bourdain's championing of sort of working class values inside an important space that serves the public reminds me of David Simon's approach to covering cops and crime in Baltimore. And so I would recommend people check out Homicide A Year on the Killing Streets, the first book that he wrote that inspired the TV series Homicide Life on the street and also launched David into the global entertainment space in a way that he was able to. He produced another book about Baltimore called the Corner. And then he also did, of course, the Wire and several other really interesting shows for hbo. But Homicide, A Year in the Killing Streets, you really get a sense of cops as sort of working class dudes oppressed by this system that doesn't work and doing whatever they can to just kind of get through their shift. And the guys who are respected are the guys who show up on time. They're people that the other cops can't count on. All of these things that Bourdain also talks about in a different way in the restaurant space. So I think somebody who might read Homicide or you're on the killing streets would see a lot of commonality in terms of really literate, really smart, really educated guys coming into a working class space and talking about how that works.

[C]

I mean, I have strong feelings about this one white man being the voice of a predominantly black city and having, like, strong opinions about it. And I can see where the parallels.

[B]

You can see the parallels? You can see the parallels.

[C]

Don't love it.

[B]

All the stuff we just talked about is true Vesa.

[C]

And that is also a man who is not yet, you know, fully addressed his privilege or cares to. But that's above me. That's neither here nor there.

[A]

I love the way you bring it. I love it. Keep bringing it.

[C]

Okay. I had a really hard time. I've been stressing about this for like a few weeks, like, trying to find a recommendation for this. But I thought about a book I read a couple of years ago that kind of spoke to maybe like, the existential questions that Bourdain was having. But my recommendation would be Land of Milk and Honey by C. Pam Zhang. Oh. Uh huh. It's like this dystopian. We're in this future where you're like, the chef is given the choice to cook for this. The few and the privileged in this dystopian future, there's like, scarcity and thinking about, like, who have I become? And I don't know. I read it at the time and I was thinking about it while I was reading Kitchen Confidential, and people have, like, mixed feelings about the book. I have picked a couple of books this season that have been, you know, people have thoughts, but I found Zhang's writing really, really compelling. So go for it. It's weird. I found it fun and distressing.

[B]

Yeah. The book I want to recommend is Lizzie Goodman's Meet Me in the Bathroom. So that's an oral history of the sort of indie rock boom of New York in the mid 2000s to the 2010s. And I picked it because Kitchen Confidential feels like such a New York book. And, you know, being a New Yorker, it made me miss a New York I was never really a part of. Right. Like, this is all going on. A lot of this book is happening in Manhattan again. I was like, too young and too priced out of, like, any of the scenes that he's really talking about. But I did miss the feeling of being in that era of New York and Meet Me in the Bathroom similarly made me feel nostalgia for a New York that I knew that it was happening, like, across the river. And so these books just made me nostalgic for my hometown.

[F]

Oh, cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Eric, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. Thank you for going on this ride with us.

[A]

Thank you so much for asking me to be a part of this. I mean, it was. This was really a pleasure.

[C]

Oh, lovely.

[B]

And now for this week's FONA Fan, I spoke with chef and author Samin Nosrat. Hi, Samin.

[F]

Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

[B]

What's your relationship to Kitchen Confidential? Tell me about that first read when you first read it.

[F]

It came late. I was not in the first wave of readers, partly because I was having my own experience as a young cook, and it was already so intense. And there was a way where I knew from sort of the commentary around it, that it was glorifying a type of sort of, I don't know, kitchen culture that I was very much on the fringes of but already was traumatized by. And so I didn't have a lot of interest in it as a cook and only later as a writer, I was really curious because I've always believed and thought that Anthony Bourdain was a great writer. And so I wanted to read it for myself. And so by the time I came to it, I had formed my own opinions about that type of masculine, very sort of like, agro, or. What's the word? I like gonzo kitchen culture. You know, that's very, like, glamorized and glorified.

[B]

And so when you first read it with, you know, your experience, with, you know, years of kitchen experience under your belt, was it a lot of, oh, that's true.

[F]

Oh, that.

[B]

Yeah, that is how that is. Or was it like, okay, buddy, let's pump these brakes? Like, what was the initial gut reaction? Yeah.

[F]

Oh, I did not, by any means, have any sense that he was, like, exaggerating anything. I very much understood that that was likely true. It was just light years from my own experience as, like, in a very sort of sheltered corner of the culinary world. You know, I came up at Chez Panisse, which was founded and has always been owned by a woman, by Alice Waters. It was a very sort of countercultural spirit that was the foundation of that restaurant. You know, I hate to have these sort of, like, gender binary divisions of. Of, like, sort of kitchen culture and cooking, but I think there is a real agro, like, masculine thing in a way. I think that there's aggression involved in all of these kitchens. I think at Chez Panisse, it leans a little bit more toward passive aggression. And in other types of kitchens, it's very, like, active aggression, where there's, like, yelling and throwing and stabbing that we were a lot more Controlled about in the restaurant, but not necessarily like to super far less sort of toxic ends.

[B]

I think, you know, this book was obviously just like a massive hit and it attracted I think a big tent of people assuming. Right. Correctly assuming that there was a influx of Bourdain types. Right.

[F]

Or acolytes.

[B]

Or acolytes.

[F]

Not even necessarily his type, but like his fans.

[B]

Yeah. People who specifically said, I'm getting into this job because of this guy.

[F]

And there were, there were like. That's documented.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you. Are we. Has that changed?

[F]

I don't know. I mean, you're talking to like a brown girl, like a daughter of immigrants who came up in a very white world, like specifically a very elite white restaurant world and was always aware of my non whiteness you know, and made to be aware of it. I didn't have language or context for a lot of what was happening around me and to me as a young cook and like throughout my cooking career in restaurants. And it's only in retro, retrospect once I like went on a journey for myself of learning about like misogyny and racism and anti racism that I could then sort of put that into perspective. This is all to say at the time I was pretty reductive and I think it's pretty reductive to say like, all these white guys with tattoos are terrible people.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[F]

Or all these people who came because they were inspired by Anthony Bourdain. We're not here for the right reasons. That was maybe what I felt in my most resentful or angry or hurt times. But I don't think there's any like sort of carpet statement to be made about any of it. I just think statistically, like there were many, many, many stories written about, you know, and quoting young men who were inspired by these words and drawn to this industry and behaved in the ways that he wrote about in those pages and now find and it how. And that was 2000. It took till 2017 for MeToo to happen. And then what happens is like Tony Bourdain's like best friends are some of the people to be called out and taken down around all of this. And so it's only been in the last, I would say eight years that I, as a person, as an old crotchety 46 year old, like who sits outside of the restaurant industry and only just watches from afar, that I have started to witness like a shift.

[B]

Yeah. Do you think this book has anything to offer a young person interested in entering the field today.

[F]

Oh, absolutely. I still think, I think it's really extraordinary writing. I think it's a really good read. I think there are absolutely parts of sort of what it means to be a cook, what it means to love to eat, what it means to have a relationship to food that is also you're like tied very deeply to your livelihood, what it means to live on the margins of society. I think all of those things spark feeling. I just hope that we have reached a point where in our culture this book is not held up as like the Bible and instruction manual for behavior, for kitchen behavior, you know.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, Sameet, I thank you so much for taking the time. I really like talking to you and focusing on folks. Be sure to check out Samin's latest cookbook. Good Things out now. Samin, thanks a lot.

[F]

Thank you.

[B]

This episode was produced by Cher Vincent and Chloe Weiner and edited by Megan.

[C]

Sullivan, engineering support by Kwesi Lee and our Executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni.

[B]

Thank you for listening to books we've loved from npr. We'll see you next time by.

[E]

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[D]

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