'The Devil Is a Southpaw' is a story within a story — or so its narrator says

Summary

---

Episode Overview

Podcast: NPR’s Book of the Day
Episode: 'The Devil Is a Southpaw' is a Story Within a Story — or So Its Narrator Says
Host: Scott Simon (NPR)
Guest: Brandon Hobson (Author)
Date: December 3, 2025

This episode features an interview with Brandon Hobson, National Book Award finalist and author of The Devil Is a Southpaw. The conversation explores Hobson's layered narrative—about unreliable narration, artistic envy, the trauma of incarceration, and playful literary experimentation. Listeners get insights into the novel's construction, character development, and evocative setting, with a focus on the interplay of language and structure over plot.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Writing and Narration (00:02–02:21)

• Host Introduction:
  Andrew Limbong notes that sometimes complex, twisty prose is an “attempt to create art," but for some writers, such as Hobson's character Milton, it's also "a defense mechanism... when writing simply feels too honest, too vulnerable."
• Unreliable Narrator:
  Hobson describes Milton, the protagonist, as "not the most reliable of narrators," using elevated, challenging prose to both impress and shield himself.

  "First of all, Milton's sanity is questionable. I think he's a very unreliable narrator. He tries to manipulate the reader by using long sentences and difficult vocabulary and obscure language as an attempt to write a heavy literary work."
  (Brandon Hobson, 02:21)

---

2. Rivalry, Envy, and Artistic Struggle (02:01–03:04)

• Milton envies Matthew, his childhood rival from juvenile detention, because Matthew’s artistic and literary talents are recognized in ways Milton's are not.

  "They're both artists and they're both writers, and Matthew's had a level of success that Milton was never able to achieve."
  (Brandon Hobson, 02:32)

---

3. Fiction, Trauma, and Memory (03:04–04:27)

• The Past Revisited:
  The two boys meet in an Oklahoma juvenile facility, allegedly for a "school shooting" attempt, though this claim is later revealed as unreliable.

  "He tells us, first of all in part one, that it was an attempt at a school shooting. And we later find out... that it wasn't that at all."
  (Brandon Hobson, 03:06)

• Reality vs. Fiction:
  Hobson draws from his own experience working with incarcerated youth, noting the "lingering trauma from being locked up," which he weaves into the book’s emotional landscape.

---

4. Vivid Descriptions and Literary Techniques (03:47–05:04)

• Sample Reading:
  Hobson reads a poetic passage about the boys’ first night in detention, exemplifying the book’s lush, evocative language:

  "The first night, we were too afraid to fall asleep... a stream of hazy light slanted in from the narrow and soulless windows... how we imagine such a light as a symbol of hope... abandoned as we were in our solitary rooms."
  (Brandon Hobson, reading, 03:47)

• Author’s Interpretation:
  Hobson discusses why his character’s descriptions are stylized, explaining,

  "A big part of this was he uses an exaggerated vocabulary, obscure language, and these kind of poetic descriptions... serious art is where complex and difficult questions are made human and uncomfortable."
  (Brandon Hobson, 04:27)

---

5. Setting and Atmosphere—Oklahoma (05:04–05:57)

• Oklahoma as Character:
  The harsh, desolate elements of Oklahoma set the mood, capturing both beauty and bleakness, especially within the juvenile detention environment:

  "Oklahoma is really a strange place... I wanted to make that setting very dark and desolate."
  (Brandon Hobson, 05:22)

---

6. Surrealism, Doppelgangers, and Playfulness (05:57–06:49)

• Unexpected Characters:
  Hobson uses celebrity doppelgangers and playful references (e.g., Salvador Dali discussing Duran Duran) to inject surrealism and fun amid serious themes.
• Literary Influences:

  "Those are the kinds of novels that really brought me to writing, were books that were challenging and fun."
  (Brandon Hobson, 06:49)

---

7. Autobiographical Elements and Minor Characters (06:49–07:41)

• Brandon H. in the Novel:
  A minor character shares the author’s name, feigning illness and serving as a meta-narrative nod—but Hobson is coy about direct autobiographical intent:

  "I'm not gonna say that it's me, but it is a Brandon H."
  (Brandon Hobson, 07:24)

---

8. Writing Process and Structure (07:41–08:59)

• Organic Writing:
  Hobson likens writing fiction to a mystical, improvisatory process, emphasizing language and thematic exploration over rigid plot:

  "There's something magical that happens when someone sits down to write... Time just seems to fly and doors open. A lot of those doors that you enter aren't always the right doors, which is why revision is so important and rewriting."
  (Brandon Hobson, 07:55) "I'm not a plot-heavy writer. And I don't think literary fiction is really designed to be heavy in plot. It's much more interesting to pay attention to language and structure."
  (Brandon Hobson, 08:47)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Unreliable Narration and Artistic Anxiety:

  "He tries to manipulate the reader by using long sentences and difficult vocabulary and obscure language..."
  (Brandon Hobson, 02:21)

• On the Desolation of Oklahoma:

  "Parts of it can also be very flat and desolate... I wanted to make that setting very dark and desolate."
  (Brandon Hobson, 05:22)

• On Writing as a Mystical, Exploratory Act:

  "It's a kind of mystical experience, maybe much in the way that prayer can be... Time just seems to fly and doors open."
  (Brandon Hobson, 07:55)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:02 — Opening reflections on prose style and vulnerability (Andrew Limbong)
• 02:21 — Hobson on unreliable narration and envy
• 03:06 — The truth about Milton and Matthew's incarceration
• 03:47 — Reading from the novel: first night in juvenile facility
• 04:27 — Discussing the function of poetic, challenging language
• 05:22 — Oklahoma as a forbidding and influential landscape
• 06:05 — Playfulness and surrealist touches in the novel
• 06:49 — The significance (or not) of the Brandon H. character
• 07:55 — Writing process: mystical, organic, focused on language and doors opening
• 08:47 — Literary fiction’s emphasis on structure and language over plot

---

Summary

This episode offers a rich, nuanced look at The Devil Is a Southpaw and its inventive prose, layered storytelling, and psychological complexity. Listeners are invited into Brandon Hobson’s creative process: his use of unreliable narrators, poetic descriptions, and playfulness with literary form. Oklahoma emerges as more than backdrop—a character suffused with beauty and bleakness. Hobson’s candid reflections and playful spirit illuminate how serious questions and joy coexist in challenging, artful fiction.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's NPR's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbong. Sometimes a long, twisty, opaque sentence is the right call, the best way to communicate a complicated feeling or describe something slightly ineffable. Other times, it's a defense mechanism, a crutch a writer turns to when writing simply feels too honest, too vulnerable. In Brandon Hobson's novel the Devil Is a Southpaw, one of the main characters, Milton is a writer who writes in these long and difficult, difficult passages, and it's an attempt to create capital, a art. But as Hobson tells npr. Scott Simon, Milton isn't the most reliable of narrators. That's ahead.

[B]

This message comes from Warby Parker prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable glasses designed in house from premium material starting at just $95, including prescription lenses. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.

[C]

The Devil is a Southpaw is a novel within a novel, a manuscript, we're told, received via airmail from a long lost friend. The friend, Milton Meulborn, had been living in a yurt in the woods and writes about his childhood rival, Matthew Echota. They were locked up together at an Oklahoma juvenile facility in 1988. It is the latest novel from Brandon Hobson. He's been a finalist for the National Book Award. He's an associate professor of creative writing at New Mexico State University and an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation. He joins us from Las Cruces, New Mexico. Thanks so much for being with us.

[D]

Thanks for having me.

[C]

Tell us about these two rivals and occasional friends. Matthew is a young Cherokee artist, cripplingly shy, talented, smart and handsome boy, in your own words, Milton's own words, your own words, whatever. Why does Milton envy him?

[D]

Well, first of all, Milton's sanity is questionable. I think he's a very unreliable narrator. He tries to manipulate the reader by using long sentences and difficult vocabulary and obscure language as an attempt to write a heavy literary work. And he's very envious of Matthew, whom he was locked up with as a kid. They're both artists and they're both writers, and Matthews had a level of success that Milton was never able to achieve, and he's written his own novel or what he also calls his memoirs, which is the. The first part of the manuscript of the Devil's a Southpaw.

[C]

What put them in that juvenile facility?

[D]

Well, he tells us, first of all in part one, that it was an attempt at a school shooting. And we later find out, when he kind of retells his story in part three, that it wasn't that at all. And I spent time working in a juvenile facility with incarcerated youth. I know that there's a lingering trauma from being locked up. And so I wanted to try to convey that in this novel.

[C]

Well, help us understand a little bit of that, insofar as we can, by reading a few sentences, if we could, about what life is like in the juvenile facility.

[D]

Sure. The first night, we were too afraid to fall asleep all around the facility, where floodlights stood high over the parking lots and basketball court, shadows from the trees spread across the lawn. And a stream of hazy light slanted in from the narrow and soulless windows of. High on our walls. And how we imagine such a light as a symbol of hope, an apparition streaming its way into our rooms to examine us, abandoned as we were in our solitary rooms.

[C]

Is that a valid description, you think?

[D]

It's a little bit exaggerated from Milton, trying again to write this very artful novel. And so a big part of this was he uses an exaggerated vocabulary, obscure language, and these kind of poetic descriptions in a way that would hopefully challenge the reader. He's using it as a sort of way to create these difficult questions. I think that for him, serious art is where complex and difficult questions are made human and uncomfortable.

[C]

Oklahoma is so vivid in this novel and often forbidding. You have the storms and screeching birds, you know, instead of the bright golden haze on the meadow.

[D]

Right.

[C]

What do the elements set off in people in your characters?

[D]

Oklahoma is really a strange place. I think it's. You know, a lot of people consider it sort of flyover country, but it's. It's full of hills and parts of it. It can be very pretty. Parts of it can also be very flat and desolate. And part of the birds and the landscape is an important part, I think, of hopefully conveying that desolation and that emptiness and that struggle, especially at a juvenile detention center. And so I wanted to make that setting very dark and desolate.

[C]

And how do you work in what I'll call celebrity cameos into the book? I mean, speaking of surrealism.

[D]

Yeah. I'm interested in this idea of doppelgangers and doubling. And it was fun to be Able to see, you know, here's a doppelganger of Salvador Dali and he's going on and on about the band Duran Duran. And I think part of that comes out of also the pleasure of writing the book. And hopefully that comes across in a sort of playful way. It's a serious novel, but it's also supposed to be playful. And so I think with the playful language and vocabulary, the doppelgangers, those are the kinds of novels that really brought me to writing, were books that were challenging and fun.

[C]

Who's the Brandon H. Who makes appearances? He's locked up with Milton and Matthew and often feigning illness.

[D]

Yeah, that Brandon H. It's just a very minor character in the book. He feigns illness and tells us that he has received this manuscript from Milton. And he, like, there are a few other minor characters who are in the book and he's just one of them.

[C]

So is this you?

[D]

No, I'm not gonna say that it's me, but it is a Brandon H.

[C]

So that, I mean, that. That could be Brandon Hogstratten, for example.

[D]

It could be. It could be. It could be another Brandon Hobson, too, there. I think there are many.

[C]

Oh, my word. That hadn't occurred to me. How do you work things out when you're writing a novel? This is a wonderfully intricate story and it's set over, you know, even different eras in a person's life.

[D]

Well, that's a. That's a hard question. Every book is its own thing. You know, there's something magical that happens when someone sits down to write, especially fiction, and pretty soon three hours have passed. It's a kind of mystical experience, maybe much in the way that prayer can be. If you pray for long periods of time or meditate for long periods of time, I very much see creating art in that same way. Time just seems to fly and doors open. A lot of those doors that you enter aren't always the right doors, which is why revision is so important and rewriting. So other doors appear and you explore those rooms. That's a big part of the writing. I don't. I. I'm not a. I'm a plot heavy writer. And I don't think literary fiction is really designed to be heavy in plot. It's much more interesting to pay attention to language and structure, I think.

[C]

But it's important to open the doors, find out where they lead.

[D]

Absolutely. Of course.

[C]

Brandon Hobson's new novel, the Devil is a southpaw. Thank you so much for being with us.

[D]

Thanks so much for having me. It's an honor.

[B]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on think or swim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori featuring the performance jogger. Visit viori.com NPR for 20% off your first purchase on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This message comes from GiveWell. When you give to a nonprofit, how do you measure success? What is the real impact on people's lives? GiveWell researches the highest impact opportunities around the world. Over 150,000 donors have confidently used GiveWell's research, collectively saving an estimated 300,000 DOL. Make a tax deductible [e-mail] first time donors can have their donation matched up to $100 as long as matching funds last select podcast and NPR at checkout.