Dave Chappelle on free speech, the purpose of comedy and the weaponization of jokes

Summary

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NPR's Newsmakers

Episode: Dave Chappelle on Free Speech, The Purpose of Comedy, and the Weaponization of Jokes

Date: April 15, 2026
Host: Michelle Martin (with opening from Steve Inskeep)
Guest: Dave Chappelle

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Overview

In this candid and wide-ranging interview, Dave Chappelle reflects on the role of comedy in society, his personal evolution, and the boundaries of free speech. Broadcasting from his hometown of Yellow Springs, Ohio, Chappelle defends the provocative nature of his art, discusses his relationship with the local NPR affiliate WYSO and the community, addresses media controversies, and explores the responsibilities and limits of comedians in today's culture. The episode dives deep into how comedy contextualizes current events, the personal significance of community for Chappelle, and why he believes laughter and togetherness are crucial during turbulent times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Yellow Springs, Community, and Local Media

• Attachment to Yellow Springs (03:28-07:34):
  • Chappelle chose to make Yellow Springs his permanent home, stemming from childhood connections and a wish for normalcy and community, rather than fame or prestige.
  • He purchased and renovated an old building to keep the community’s NPR affiliate, WYSO, in town, viewing the station as a “connective tissue for our community” (02:02).
  • On local privacy: “I feel like, locally, my privacy is something people feel they need to protect… They look out for me. They look out for my kids. They look out for my wife.” (06:31)

2. Comedy, Free Speech, and Provocation

• Role of Comedy (12:32-14:05):
  • Chappelle likens comedy to the nation’s kidney, helping the public “metabolize not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas.”
  • He draws parallels between journalism and comedy, both performing the role of contextualizing and explaining societal events.
  • “Jokes are just a shorthand for all of that. And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something or making light of something just makes it feel less daunting.” (14:37)
• Provocation vs. Intention (15:09-15:54):
  • On being labeled provocative: “No, I don’t court it. I just don't flinch from it… I’m a filthy nightclub comic… I started in smoky rooms in D.C… and it was never a big deal.”

3. Expanding Impact, Global Comedy, and Saudi Arabia

• International Voice & Contentious Gigs (16:38-21:16):
  • Chappelle describes his evolving role from speaking primarily to Black audiences to being an “ambassador of American culture” globally.
  • On the Saudi Arabia controversy: He acknowledges hesitating to perform there due to the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi but notes: “As soon as a Black man can make money off the plantation, they try to tell you that the money is dirty… Where is this clean money you’re talking about?” (20:33)
  • Performing in the Middle East was about bringing the power of free speech and comedy to audiences who have been deprived of it: “It was like a baby tasting sugar.” (19:13)

4. Comedy’s Social Role and Navigating Tragedy

• Comedy after Tragedy (22:10-24:07):
  • Chappelle often performed in communities after traumatic events to help process collective grief, e.g., Minneapolis after police killings, Buffalo after the Tops Market shooting.
  • “You can console certain communities with your presence or just acknowledging it, that you see them and that you hurt with them.” (23:24)

5. Criticism, “Punching Down,” and Media Representation

• Controversies Over Jokes (24:07-25:51):
  • Responding to criticisms that he “punches down,” especially regarding trans people: “I don’t want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but… so much of that was a media phenomenon, what was happening in actual life versus how the media was reporting on my show.”
  • He believes media coverage often misrepresents his intent, and objects to attempts to “police comedy.”
  • “Reading a joke is a lot different than sitting in a room and hearing it.” (25:58)
  • “If you’re a person that is very angry or passionate about something, and you're afraid that you're going to be misrepresented or misconstrued, and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.” (25:58)

6. On Free Speech, Expression, and Comedy Clubs

• Championing Speech (27:50-29:49):
  • Chappelle sees the comedy club as a microcosm of free speech: “Every opinion that you could think of is championed in a room. I don’t silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I’m not your champion and I am someone else’s.”
  • Comedy, for him, is about open dialogue, not silencing dissent.

7. Comedy, Politics, and Weaponization of Jokes

• Jokes versus Political Rhetoric (29:49-33:04):
  • Chappelle comments on political figures (notably the U.S. president) using humor or shorthand provocations: “I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes… I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing.”
  • He recounts an anecdote about Lauren Boebert using a photo with him: “She instantly, like, weaponized it or politicized it… I lit her ass up for doing that.” (32:47)

8. Responsibility and Evolution as an Artist

• Platform and Artistic Authenticity (33:43-35:49):
  • Chappelle resists the idea that his increased platform should fundamentally change his approach: “You gotta be true to your work. That’s the job. And if that makes you big, so be it. But then you don't… become true to being big, and that's a mistake.”
  • On regret: “I don’t feel like anything I do is malicious or, or even harmful. If I did hurt somebody with my word, boy, they would have been laid that at my feet.”

9. Life Chapters and Personal Reflection

• Life’s Chapters (35:17-38:10):
  • Chappelle reflects on his career’s phases: the grind of trying to make it, Chappelle’s Show’s cultural explosion, his withdrawal and recalibration, and now a chapter of community engagement and gratitude.
  • “My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit… artistically and as a guy, there’s certain things that I became in that time that I love about myself.” (35:49)
  • 2020 was a moment of realization: “I like my kids. I like my wife. I like where I live. I like my friends. I like my community.”

10. Laughter, Unity, and American Identity

• On Closing Shows with Togetherness (38:10-41:10):
  • Chappelle explains why he ends shows urging audiences to “take care of each other”: “As much goodwill as you can put out there, it’s priceless right now, and it will get us through this time… It’s just terrible, terrible weather. But you don’t want your resolve to get so weak that you accept this time as a normal way of being. Being together and laughing through things… are active steps to healing.” (41:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On his relationship with Yellow Springs:

  • “Nobody here really pays attention to what I’m doing out in the world. I’m just a local here in a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway, and they knew me Poor, they knew me Rich… It’s a real feeling of community here.” (05:22)

• On privacy and community protection:

  • “Locally my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. They look out for me.” (06:31)

• On his role as a performer:

  • “I'm successful because people take care of me, because they believe in me, because they buy tickets… So I treat it like it’s reciprocally special.” (09:27)

• On the purpose of comedy:

  • “We're like a nation's kidney. We help everyone metabolize not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas.” (13:34)

• On media controversies and “punching down”:

  • “So much of that was a media phenomenon… I don’t tell country artists what to sing about. If I’m not gonna go see a country show… if they bought tickets ever, maybe I’d listen.” (24:42)
  • “Reading a joke is a lot different than, than sitting in a room and hearing it.” (25:58)

• On comedy clubs as free speech forums:

  • “Every opinion as a champion… You can’t silence the team that you don’t like what they’re saying, but you do have the opportunity to go on after them. Say your piece.” (28:15)

• On political weaponization of jokes:

  • “I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes… They were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. It’s not what I was doing.” (31:06)
  • “She instantly, like, weaponized it or politicized it… I lit her ass up for doing that. And she should never do that. Person like me. But now she knows.” (32:47)

• On his evolution and finding satisfaction:

  • “My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. And it was the hardest part.” (35:49)

• On unity and the healing power of comedy:

  • “As much goodwill as you can put out there, it’s priceless right now, and it will get us through this time.” (41:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Yellow Springs & Community Roots:
  01:13 – 07:34

• Comedy, Journalism & The Nation’s Kidney:
  12:32 – 15:54

• Global Audiences & Saudi Arabia:
  16:38 – 21:16

• Comedy’s Role After Tragedy:
  22:10 – 24:07

• Controversy & Criticism – “Punching Down”:
  24:07 – 25:58

• Comedy Club as Free Speech Forum:
  27:50 – 29:49

• Comedy vs. Weaponization, Politics:
  29:49 – 33:43

• Chappelle’s Growth & Life Chapters:
  35:17 – 38:10

• On Laughter and Unity:
  38:10 – 41:10

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Summary

Dave Chappelle’s Newsmakers interview is an intimate exploration of comedy’s responsibility in culture, the personal values anchoring his work, and the lines between provocation, empathy, and controversy. He discusses his deep love for his Ohio community, explains why he believes comedy is essential for processing collective experiences, pushes back against attempts to restrict comic speech, and encourages audiences to cherish collective laughter as an antidote to division and toxicity. For those concerned about free speech, cultural gatekeeping, and the boundaries of humor, Chappelle offers both principled defenses and nuanced, lived perspective.

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Transcript

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[Dave Chappelle]

My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you feel like your job is to be provocative?

[Dave Chappelle]

No, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. But if you're a person that is very angry or passionate about something and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.

[Steve Inskeep]

This is Newsmakers NPR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Inskeep. We question some of the most influential people of our time. Make sure to follow this show wherever you listen or subscribe to the NPR YouTube channel so you get the latest episode as soon as it's available. Today, NPR's Michelle Martin is your host.

[Michelle Martin]

Dave Chappelle is one of the most influential stand up comedians of our time. He's known for pushing the boundaries of what it's okay to say in public. He also uses his influence to advance the causes he believes in, in his art and in his community. Now, you probably know that, but what you may not know is, is that he lives here in Yellow Springs, Ohio. And that's where we begin our conversation. Thank you for having us.

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, man, what an honor. What an honor.

[Michelle Martin]

Tell us where we are.

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, this is my future offices for my production company in what they call the old Union Schoolhouse in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which we have just completely renovated for our local NPR affiliate, wiso.

[Michelle Martin]

Is it too strong to say that you saved the station?

[Dave Chappelle]

Save the station? No, I think the station would have would have survived and hopefully thrived without me. But what I did achieve is I kept them here in Yellow Springs. So, so our NPR affiliate has a very special relationship with the community. It's like our lifeblood. It's a connective tissue for our community. So if they had left, we would still listen, but it would have been demoralizing for us if they were to have to do that. And they had reached an impasse where they had got independence from the university. They used to be affiliated with Antioch, and they wanted to stay in town, but there was nothing available.

[Michelle Martin]

The building was in disrepair. As I understand it, this place was the shambles.

[Dave Chappelle]

But, you know, when I was growing up, this building was vibrant. It was like a municipal building that, you know, they would do people come here to pay their power bill and stuff like that? And then as the years went on, it had a few other purposes, but it just kind of got run down like. Like most of the Midwest. It just kind of was looking for a new purpose. It was not an expensive building to buy. It was an expensive building to fix.

[Michelle Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Chappelle]

But it was worth every penny.

[Michelle Martin]

Like, remind us if you would, because some people know your story, but everybody doesn't why Yellow Springs is so important to you.

[Dave Chappelle]

Well.

[Michelle Martin]

And you live here now?

[Dave Chappelle]

I live here. I've been living here since, like, 2000. But you live.

[Michelle Martin]

Live here. This is. This is not your summer place. Like, you live. Live here?

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah, like, my only homes are here, but I have many homes here. I. I'm from D.C. my. My. Both my parents are. But before I was born, my father worked at Antioch University. My mother worked at Wilberforce. They came back to D.C. i was born, and then maybe two years into my life, they separated, and my father moved back here. So I don't have many memories of them married, but he was very present in my life, and I would spend holidays and vacations here with him. So I guess I've always associated this place with relaxing. And around 90, 98, he passed. He was ailing for a while, so for a year, I would drive back and forth from New York to Ohio. And at that time, there wasn't a hotel here. There was nowhere to stay. And so I ended up buying a house, a small place so I could see my dad out. And then when he passed, I left New York and moved into the house and kind of packed up show business and didn't go back to New York till I did Chappelle's show. But that's. And I've just been here ever since.

[Michelle Martin]

Yeah, but you could live wherever you want. Is it. This is like a heart place for you.

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah. Well, I think early at that time in my career, I didn't know that I'd do as well as I did. And I figured I should build a lifestyle for myself that I can afford for a while so I could be more adventurous with my career. H. And.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, I've also heard you say that you can. You can feel normal here without question. What. Tell. What does that. Tell me what that means.

[Dave Chappelle]

Nobody here really pays attention to what I'm doing out in the world. It's hard. I don't know what that's like for them. But I'm just a local here in a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway, and they knew me Poor, they knew me. Rich, they knew me in all these different incarnations myself. So there's just a baseline of normalcy. You know, everyone kind of grew up together. You know, we watched our kids grow older together and we all kind of segue in life together. And. Oh, did you hear? Ms. So and so passed. Did you. You know, you look after each other. It's a real feeling of community here.

[Michelle Martin]

And you can just go to the store and get your whatever without.

[Dave Chappelle]

I was grocery shopping before I came here.

[Michelle Martin]

Is that right?

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah.

[Michelle Martin]

You didn't bring us anything? What'd you bring us?

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, I didn't bring no. I didn't bring no grocery shopping.

[Michelle Martin]

But I mean, really, you can just go to the store and get milk and don't have to worry about somebody putting a camera in your face or. No, people, no disrespect to cameras, but I'm just saying you can just go do your thing without feeling like you have to get dressed up or.

[Dave Chappelle]

I'll take it even further than that. I feel like locally my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. Like if someone comes up like, hey, where's Dave Chappelle live? They're not going to. I mean, you know, they just, they just look out for me. They look out for my kids. They, you know, they look out for my wife. I know their families. If they need stuff, they can call us. And like, no one here is a complete stranger that, that, that happens very rarely now. The town is a tourist town, so there's always people around that I don't know. But I like that as well. I love people. I'm not living a hermit's life out here, but the rest of my life is so chaotic and so large and dramatic and palace intrigue and whatever it is that happens in show business that I connect with the simplicity. I do have time to think, I have time to read, time to hang out with my friends. It's a nice, you know, it's a nice life. It's a nice balance for what? My life is in total foreign.

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[Steve Inskeep]

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[Dave Chappelle]

It's in the First Amendment. I'm Tom Bowman and I cover the Pentagon for npr.

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[Dave Chappelle]

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days coming up on May 1st and 2nd. Give now at donate.npr.org in your recent

[Michelle Martin]

Netflix special, the Unstoppable, you were talking about Yellow Springs and you said, I'm not a public servant, I'm a capitalist. But you're a capitalist and you came in to give a major boost to a public radio station. So is that an investment? Is it a service? Is it a philanthropy?

[Dave Chappelle]

Is it maybe all the above? You know, when you think about what a comedian does for a living, people I'm successful because people take care of me, because they believe in me, because they buy tickets and get babysitters and go through trouble to come see me. And so I treat it like it's reciprocally special. I love being there as much as they love being there. And I think it's important for an artist like me. I'm not putting this on all artists, but for an artist like me, that relationship is something I'm true to in the sense that it's good that I demonstrate that I don't take it for granted that people are protective of my privacy and my community or that we have a radio station that tells our stories. Like my son interned at wiso, and it ignited things in his mind and got and gave him aspirations that he didn't have before. I want to talk all about what his dreams are, but I'm just saying here, this station really does touch our lives. It's not just radio here, which, you

[Michelle Martin]

know, there have been major figures. Major. Okay. I'll just say rich people who have wrapped their arms around media organizations before and it has gotten inconvenient for them or it's misaligned with their other business objectives and they've changed what the organization is. So do you feel confident that if this place becomes inconvenient to you, you're not going to, I don't know, cut the water off or.

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, here it's church and state. Look. In fact, one only reason I'm doing press around it is because I think the ethical community needs to be amplified. And I think that the importance of public broadcasting needs to be amplified. But other than that, I like talking. I'm a filthy nightclub comic since I'm a kid. In my core, that's all I see myself as. And I don't want to say anything that gets them in trouble. I don't want their brand to necessarily be affiliated with me. I don't believe everything they say. I don't. They don't believe everything I say. But, and that's, you know, that's fine. But I like that NPR exists.

[Michelle Martin]

Let's say for the sake of argument, they cover a story involving some of your business interests in town in a way that you don't like. What you gonna do?

[Dave Chappelle]

Cross that bridge? I mean, you know, it's happened before. Well, I've heard them say things or criticisms of my work on the station or on npr. I mean, it's just, that's part of my job. But the relationship that this place has with our community preexists my career, you know what I mean? I can't really take that personally. In fact, the more separate we are, I think the more comfortable we feel. But, but at the same time, you know, it's familial.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you see journalism and comedy being related in some way?

[Dave Chappelle]

Incredibly?

[Michelle Martin]

How so?

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, first of all, journalists determine what the baseline reality is. You guys, there's been times where I could write an act that's just a rebuttal to reporting. Right now there's cable reporting, which is a lot more editorializing. What I like about NPR's reporting is fact based. But she'll cut the meat. The journalist will ask the question, what does that mean? Tell us what that means, and the person will explain something. In the last three, the last 10 years, watching the news is like taking a civics class because there's so many things that are happening in politics and whatever that are unprecedented. And you have to explain to a person, well, this is why this is unusual. And you know, whatever the case may be, this contextualization is what comedians do. We're like a nation's kidney. We help everyone metabolize not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas. And in the last 15, 20 years, our culture and our media has been an avalanche of facts and ideas. It's very difficult to sift through. And in that time, you've seen comedy rise up to the top of all genres because it does help people contextualize.

[Michelle Martin]

Say more about that. About comedy being like the nation's kidneys. I've heard you say this before. You use some language I can't use, but it involved, you know, as you put out.

[Dave Chappelle]

Let's.

[Michelle Martin]

Let's put it. How can we put it in ways that won't jeopardize my license?

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, I'm like, I'm scared. What did I say?

[Michelle Martin]

We're like. We're helping people process all the.

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, yeah, we and you. We really do get it out of here.

[Michelle Martin]

But. But say more about that, because the implication then is that you're engaged with the.

[Dave Chappelle]

Dick Gregory once described Richard Pryor's work as brain surgery. Or if. You know, I don't want to go into the specifics of the things I say on stage, but there's a lot of big ideas that people have feelings about, and there's no real context to conversate or rebut them. And jokes are just a shorthand for all of that. And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something or making light of something just makes it feel less daunting.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? I'm just thinking about the adjectives that are applied to you. Provocative, controversial, polarizing. Any of that.

[Dave Chappelle]

No, I don't. I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it. Because at the core, man, again, my core, I'm a filthy nightclub actress. I started in smoky rooms in D.C. and, you know, and black crowds and. And white crowds, and people had drinks, and they just looked gruff and said what they said back then, and it was never a big deal. And then as the time went on, people, the culture, started trying to renegotiate itself, and that's a great time to be a comedian.

[Michelle Martin]

When you say, I'm thinking about the role that a lot of black comics have played, particularly for black people, a lot of times it's a release. It's too. Because a lot of times, I think a lot of black people feel the way they have to navigate the world is to keep things stuffed down, right? Is it fair? So I think that a lot of black comedians, their role has often been to give people a release, to let them say the things that they can't say when they're going to their job or whatever. Whatever. But now you are international. I mean, people all over the world watch you, listen to you. Certainly not just black audiences listen to you. And I wonder, do you feel like your job is different now?

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, no, the mechanics are the same. Now I'm an ambassador of a genre more than I was. I'm an ambassador of American culture more than I was. If I put a show up in Berlin or Vienna and people come and see me, they're coming to see me as an American voice as much as. As a black one, Even though in the States, they might not see it that way overseas. You know, I got all that flack for doing that festival in Saudi Arabia, but. But in Saudi, you know, I don't think that festival would have been legitimate if I wasn't there.

[Michelle Martin]

Say more about that. Say more about that.

[Dave Chappelle]

I'm not the biggest comedian, but my voice is sought after in Saudi Arabia for, like, the last 20 years. They've been doing. Really, maybe 15 years they've been trying to do comedy shows in Saudi Arabia, Underground shows. The jokes were like, contraband. These shows would happen in people's homes. They would happen in embassies. You know, comedians like Mars Gibrani and guys like this, they've been going over there for years and doing these shows. But privately, private, quietly.

[Michelle Martin]

Quietly.

[Dave Chappelle]

It wasn't. Yeah, close to being private, whatever. I don't know what their laws are,

[Michelle Martin]

but for the elites, basically, people who.

[Dave Chappelle]

Not for necessarily the elites, but, yeah, for people who could have a house like that. I don't know what those shows were like because I didn't do those shows.

[Michelle Martin]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dave Chappelle]

The first time I can remember doing a big show in the Middle east, my opening act was a guy named Mo Amber, who's Palestinian, American, you know, from Houston, but, you know, originally from Kuwait, but he's Palestinian. And Mo was probably on that circuit doing the secret shows in Saudi. And, man, the thing that was remarkable was the crowd reaction Right. Right before I went on stage. Actually, funny, right before I went on stage, they gave me a list of all the things I wasn't supposed to address. It was like, right before I went on stage. So I took the list on stage, and that was the show. I just did the list. Don't talk about the royal family. Is that y'? All? And I just made fun of them, man. They were screaming, screaming. Then after the show, I'm backstage at a meet and greet, and there was all these young comedians from all over the Middle East. They. They were looking at me like I Wouldn't even know that. They'd know who I am. They couldn't believe I was there. They kept saying, you just say that. You just say that stuff. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's not a big deal in my mind, but I never forgot that. And that was in Dubai, man, in Riyadh. That crowd watching that comedy. The first time the government let them even see something like this, it was like a baby tasting sugar. If I had choked a tiger out, they couldn't have been more impressed.

[Michelle Martin]

They were screaming, you think you're creating space for them. That wouldn't exist.

[Dave Chappelle]

At the very least. And this is not nothing. That must have felt incredibly cathartic if you can't say everything you want to say, but you see somebody model that behavior, oh, man, you're going to want it. So if you think of all the violence and all the things we export to the Middle East, I think our culture is the best export we got. I didn't feel wrong being up there.

[Michelle Martin]

Yeah, I know. We were talking about the comedy festival in 2025. You did get a lot of fall. You did get a lot of. I don't know what you. Pushback or criticism for going among other people. Okay. The intelligence, US Intelligence did make it clear that they believe that the Saudis killed Jamal Khashoggi and the embassy in Turkey. You knew that when you went, right?

[Dave Chappelle]

Oh, absolutely.

[Michelle Martin]

Now, I tell you, you had no qualms.

[Dave Chappelle]

I won't say that. They asked me to go years before that, and I said no for that very reason. Since that time, the United States government does business with the Saudis. Netflix does business with Saudis, everyone. The Saudis financed tons of movies. All these. I know. I see them financing boxing matches and all these things. And none of these things were an issue until I went there. And why is that? As soon as a black man can make money off the plantation, they try to tell you that the money is dirty. Well, okay, I'll go home and spend the money with actual slave owners on it. Where is this clean money you're talking about?

[Michelle Martin]

But you said you hesitated for years to go. There are years you didn't go. So what made the difference for you?

[Dave Chappelle]

Time. Time and circumstance. Time. And the wheels of commerce kept turning. You know, if you want to be that pure about money, then stop driving your car, stop eating, don't use your cell phone. Everything is tethered to something that's just terrible. And I can make a million excuses or reasons to deprive that crowd of that show. But, man, when I was standing in front of them. I feel like I did the right thing. Our governments are going to ruin everything for us. We'll never get to know each other if we just do everything that they want to do or function on the terms that they want us to function. And we don't even really know what's going on. Not for sure.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, artists have always made these decisions. I mean, there were these decisions in South Africa under apartheid, you know, there were decisions about whether artists should go there or not go. And then the question is, are you validating the system or are you resisting it with your presence?

[Dave Chappelle]

I mean, look, in the middle of apartheid, if I went and played Sun City, I'd say I'm a bad person. But if I went and played Soweto, why would I not do that? Okay, I'll give you another example. Not a good example. I'm doing a show. There's a police officer killed a black person, and the black community asked me to cancel the show. We don't want artists to come. We want a boycott.

[Michelle Martin]

Was that in Ohio? Was that in Cincinnati? After I was in Ohio, it was in Cincinnati, yeah.

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah. And I respected their wishes. But it's like. Or we could have got together and talked about it, you know, And I like. I mean, I'm gonna say I like doing it, but I do that often. When Minneapolis was going through, maybe when they. I was in Paris when they killed Alex Preddy. And, man, I booked the show in Minneapolis right after they killed that guy. Like, man, they're gonna need talk about this. And that was nerve wracking. Another situation, Topps Market in Buffalo.

[Michelle Martin]

Buffalo, man, killed like 10 black.

[Dave Chappelle]

10 black people unprovoked in the grocery store. That happened right after I got tackled in LA at the Hollywood Bowl. But, man, I went to Buffalo. You know, it's not that I think that jokes help, but you can console certain communities with your presence or just acknowledging it, that you see them and that you heard with them.

[Michelle Martin]

You feel like you're lancing the boil in a way for people or just, what, giving them a place to feel their feelings or.

[Dave Chappelle]

Okay, well, one is mutual. The Tops Market thing be so upsetting that I want to be there, you know, Like, I have a friend from Buffalo who's. That's their local grocery store. His mother shops there. Like, thank God she was all right. But it just. It hits close to home.

[Michelle Martin]

But what about people who feel like you're punching down, like you're not. You are not a trans person? And there are people who Feel like it's different when you are part of the group that has been attacked, hurt, demeaned, etc. And then if you're outside of the group and you're having commentary about it, it causes feelings. And what do you, what do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down?

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, okay, this is a conversation that,

[Michelle Martin]

you know, you're bored by, sick of.

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah, well, I'm sick of it. I don't want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know, that's a tough one for me because so much of that was a media phenomenon, what was happening in actual life versus how the media was reporting on my show. And I feel like the way they were put on that show was rage baiting to some degree. And there's so many different branches to talk about it. But I would say that, you know, not everything is for everybody. I don't tell country artists what to sing about. If I'm not gonna go see a country show, you know, if they bought tickets ever, maybe I'd listen. I don't know. They're just never there. I don't even know who's telling them. I say these things.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you feel like your jokes are misrepresented or you think they're misrepresented for a purpose? Which is to.

[Dave Chappelle]

It's almost similar. Was as if they almost reported on it. As if I was doing something other than a comedy show. You know, I could go on and on about this, but I gotta be interesting.

[Michelle Martin]

So in a way, like you're saying, look, I'm a comedian. Everybody knows that I'm a comedian. So if you don't like my humor, don't buy a ticket.

[Dave Chappelle]

Reading a joke is a lot different than, than sitting in a room and hearing it. And part of the sitting in the room, part of. One of the reasons comedy works is because everyone that bought a ticket, clearly they want it to work. They want to have a good time, they want to have fun. But if you're a person that is very angry or passionate about something and you're afraid that you're going to be misrepresented or misconstrued, and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across, you should assess your point.

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[Michelle Martin]

I heard you say at your when you received the Mark Twain Award, which is a very big honor and congratulations.

[Dave Chappelle]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Michelle Martin]

I mean, it's really the highest recognition that this country really gives somebody in your field. And one of the things that you said that struck me was that if you go to a comedy club somewhere in America, your feelings and thoughts are represented.

[Dave Chappelle]

Every opinion as a champion.

[Michelle Martin]

Say more about that, though. Why do you think that matters?

[Dave Chappelle]

Because it's important. Because every opinion that you could think of is championed in a room. I don't silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I'm not your champion and I am someone else's. You can't silence the team that you don't like what they're saying, but you do have the opportunity to go on after them. Say your piece. You know, man, this has happened to me so many times in my career where a guy will say something, I'll be, oh, I don't feel away about it. Yeah, I don't say, I don't think that they should be silenced. But I can't wait. They're gonna put me up next and

[Michelle Martin]

I'm gonna have what I have to say about it.

[Dave Chappelle]

I got, you know, I got you. And then afterwards we go upstairs, we might talk shit. But we, you know, we have, we're fairly cordial. There's people who say things they don't like all the time. I go to their kids, birthdays, I go to, I go to their funerals. Like, these are the comedians I came up with. And if I see these same people throughout my life, then clearly they're part of my community and everyone's in it. There's, you know, trans stand up Comedians, there's. There's every sexuality, every kind of identity, and we support one another.

[Michelle Martin]

You know what's interesting, though? You know, we are in a time when I know you talked about comedians as being like, the nation's kidney who process, like, all the things that people feel like, all of it. Right. The President of the United States says. I mean, he. We are in a moment where the President of the United States expresses things in a way. He expresses things that many people find deeply offensive. He expresses them in a way. In a way that many people find deeply offensive and hurtful. And I'm just wondering, does that change your work? Because it's one thing to be a person who articulates the rawness when the rest of the world is buttoned up, but what about when the rest of the world isn't buttoned up? And I just wonder if that changes things for you. You know what I'm saying?

[Dave Chappelle]

And he's a bad example because he has a dismissive shorthand about people like a comedian. If we up there talking. It's a much. It's a way different type of interface than, say, being President of the United

[Michelle Martin]

States because, oh, it's a totally different job. I credit that. But I'm saying.

[Dave Chappelle]

No, I'm saying. I'm talking about not just the job, the actual inter. Face, how we actually are communicating to people.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, say more.

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, the presidency is the presidency. Like. Like, you know, if you vote for the person or not, that's your president. This is an authority figure. This is the top law enforcement agent. The top. You know, he's the executor of all of America's affairs. And I just have to move my crowd. You know, you can. You can opt out of my crowd, but you shouldn't have to leave America because the President's making the block too hot for you. So, you know. And I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes. You know, I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. I didn't. It's not what I was doing. I'll give you an example. This is before I learned the phrase. I respectfully declined. And I was on Capitol Hill, and everybody ran up to take pictures with me from every congressional office. And I just take pictures with whoever asked. I didn't ask how they vote or what their voting record is. And everyone at first was like, CBC people. And then here comes Lauren Boebert, and she said, can I get a picture? And I'd already taken 40 pictures. I didn't want to say no in front of everybody, but I didn't know the phrase. I respectfully declined. So I just took the picture. And then she posts the picture before I could even get from there to the show and says something to the effect of just two people that knew that it's just two genders. She instantly, like, weaponized it or politicized it. So I got to the arena and I lit her ass up for doing that. And she should never do that. Person like me. But now she knows.

[Michelle Martin]

Now she knows what's up.

[Dave Chappelle]

Yeah, you do whatever it is you do, but don't get me out of the splash zone.

[Michelle Martin]

Some people think the President's funny. I've had people say this to me. Like, I've interviewed people to say, well, what do you like about him? They say he's funny. Do you think he's funny?

[Dave Chappelle]

Maybe if he wasn't president, I think that was funny. Or maybe at times. I mean, I do think, you know, that that's where. And then there are funny things about him. Like, if I were to talk about him, I could. It would be funny. But I think what he does is so consequential. And so much of these things, you know, in my lifetime, I've never really seen anything, a phenomenon quite like them. And I'm not trying to be political, but it's remarkable. I don't know. I don't know how funny it is.

[Michelle Martin]

Do you feel, given the platform that you now have and the fact that people seek you out, does that change your sense of responsibility? For the work?

[Dave Chappelle]

No, no, no. For my work? No. I mean, listen, I could personally say I don't. I don't want to. That's a tough question. There is a thing that happens when a. When an artist gets bigger, the platform gets bigger, that there's an expectation that you behave a certain way. And that's kind of the box that I fell for in Chappelle's show. Well, I didn't fall for it, but I was overwhelmed by that idea of, like, it's a lot of responsibility. But I've come to the understanding that, you know, you gotta be true to your work. That's the job. And if that makes you big, so be it. But. But then you don't. But then what happens is you get big, and then you start being true to being big, and that's a mistake. Stay true to your work. Say what you have to say. If being big informs me in such a way that I feel like I don't want to step on Any hands or any blades of grass. I don't want to hurt anybody. Then so be it. That's what I decide. But I have yet to make those types of decisions. I don't. I don't feel like anything I do is malicious or, or even harmful. And I think if I did hurt somebody with my word, boy, they would have been laid that at my feet. I just, I'm just not doing that.

[Michelle Martin]

If you feel like your life has had chapters or your career has had chapters, I mean, there was the chapter when you were trying to make it, and then there's the Chappelle show chapter where you blew up and became like this big cultural figure. And then you took this break and kind of did your own thing. You became known as the guy who walked away from $50 million. It's like you got some of it later. I understand. But, you know, there is that chapter where you took a break and kind of recalibrated yourself. What do you think this chapter is? What would you say this chapter is?

[Dave Chappelle]

Well, that's a good question, man. It's a really good question. Okay. For context, like, I started doing standup when I was 14. So, okay, you think about it a couple ways, right? Your evolution artistically, right, Your evolution professionally, but also just your evolution is like a man. As a funny 14 year old, it's so much different than what I've become. But so much of that was because of life experiences. So the chapter where I'm trying to make it right, that early chapter, I'm in high school and then the first big hurdle is the decision to defer going to college. I'm gonna go to New York and try to, you know, so then there's like the New York years, right? And there's all the professional milestones and television deals and high hopes and heartbreaks and all that. And then, you know, you meet a girl and fall in love and then, you know, we have kid and then move back to Ohio. And I wasn't expecting, you know, there's all these personal. So my favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. And it was the hardest part. I mean, quitting was one part of hard, but. But then the years after that was. Was another kind of hard, but. But artistically and as a guy, there's certain things that I became in that time that I love about myself. And I didn't realize it till Covid when I was just sitting in the house trapped with all my choices. And I said, these were not bad choices. I was like, you know, it could have been better, but, boy, it could have been worse. I like my kids. I like my wife. I like where I live. I like my friends. I like my community. And I have recourse. Thank God. That was the best. Like, 2020 was the first time that I realized that that time had molded me into something that I love. So this time in my life, I feel like I'm like this. I feel like I'm paying my bills for that time in my life.

[Michelle Martin]

Well, before we let you go, I noticed that you've been doing shows around the country. I know. I went to one in D.C. and you close by telling your audiences to keep your wits about you. And you stay. Stay together. We'll stay sane together and take care of each other.

[Dave Chappelle]

That's right.

[Michelle Martin]

And tell me why you kind of end with a group hug?

[Dave Chappelle]

Because I feel like, you know, a lot of Americans that don't travel overseas don't really know what it feels like to be in America. You know, you could think you feel some way about somebody, but. But, man, when Americans see each other overseas, we give each other, like, this fight club look, especially if you're overseas or an expat or something like that, there's something we know about the broth that living in this place feels like that only we really. No. And at that time, and even more so since that time that I did that set information and the types of things we're hearing every day in the news and seeing around us, it's almost like a psychological torture. What we're collectively going through, the amount of animosity we have for one another. And I ain't get stuck. So that show that night, I think I said that because it did feel so good to be together and because at that time, the national guard was in D.C. and there was a lot of, like, local uncertainty, which is why I came. It's like my hometown is going through it. And, man, the joy and being together, man, you gotta fight for that. To just sit in a room and not be afraid to get murdered like Charlie Kirk or get, you know, stampeded or trampled. It takes so much courage sometimes just to come see a show and they come and we're together. And I feel like the exercise of doing that show, it's like people actively trying to stay sane together. Like, let's just stay at it. Like, remember how good it feels to be together, take care of one another, Even a smile, if that's all you can muster is charity. But, man, as much goodwill as you can put out there, it's priceless right now, and it will get us through this time. It's just terrible, terrible weather. But you don't want your resolve to get so weak that you accept this time as a normal way of being and being together and laughing through things. And all these are active steps to healing and getting past it. So I promote that.

[Michelle Martin]

Dave Chappelle, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for talking to me.

[Steve Inskeep]

New episodes of this show can and will publish at any time. Make sure you stay ahead by following the show wherever you listen. You can also subscribe and watch every episode on NPR's YouTube channel. Newsmakers relies on supporters who value independent journalism and a free press. You can join NPR today to support our work and get perks from the podcasts you trust. Just go to Plus NPR. I'm Steve Inskeep. Thanks for listening to NPR's Newsmakers.