Podcast Summary: O Assunto

Episode: Lula e Trump: a ligação, o encontro e o Conselho da Paz

Host: Natuza Nery (G1)
Guest: Guga Chakra (comentarista da TV Globo e da GloboNews, colunista d’O Globo)
Date: January 27, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the surprising and evolving relationship between Brazilian president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and U.S. president Donald Trump, following a lengthy phone call in the wake of the U.S. military intervention in Venezuela. Natuza Nery and Guga Chakra unpack the dynamics of the Lula–Trump connection, the intersection of diplomacy and geopolitics in Latin America, and the controversial "Conselho da Paz" initiated by Trump to address the Gaza crisis.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lula–Trump Phone Call: Chemistry and Statecraft

• Duration & Context: The presidents spoke for nearly an hour, the first direct contact since the U.S. operation that ousted Venezuela’s Nicolás Maduro.
• Guga Chakra remarks on the relationship:
  • “Trump gosta do Lula. Difícil explicar o motivo. Teve química.” [02:50]
  • Trump is known for forming quick affinities with certain world leaders he considers strong communicators or victors.
• Brazil’s Delicate Position: Lula had recently succeeded in reducing U.S. tariffs on Brazilian exports and has since balanced necessary criticism with diplomatic restraint.

2. Key Issues Discussed in the Call

• Venezuela: Both presidents exchanged impressions on the Venezuelan situation—Lula stressed the importance of peace and stability.
• Economy & Crime: Trump cited economic growth in both countries as regionally positive; Brazil seeks U.S. cooperation to freeze criminal assets and curb arms trafficking ([00:52]–[01:22]).
• Conselho da Paz: Lula and Trump discussed Brazil’s possible involvement in Trump’s nascent Peace Council for Gaza ([01:24]).

3. Diplomatic Dynamics—Trump’s Approach and Brazil’s Strategy

• Trump’s Focus: Often transactional, Trump’s attention to Brazil is intermittent, but positively charged by his rapport with Lula.
• Influences in U.S. Policy: People like Marco Rubio and Richard Grenell may brief Trump, but he often follows his instincts ([05:57]).
• Brazil’s Cautious Adaptation: Citing examples from Turkey and Mexico, Guga notes Brazil’s use of strategic dialogue without open conflict:
  • “Eu avalio que o governo brasileiro vai seguindo na mesma linha que o Erdogan.” [09:31]
  • Mexico’s President Sheinbaum carefully maintains respectful distance, never appearing subservient ([10:39]).

4. Risks and Rewards: Lula’s Upcoming Visit to Washington

• Lula’s willingness to visit differs from Mexico’s leader, raising questions about potential pitfalls:
  • Previous visitors like Zelensky (Ukraine) and Ramaphosa (South Africa) have met with public altercations or humiliation from Trump.
  • Guga: “O presidente fala também que tem uma vantagem... ele não fala inglês... vai sempre passar por um tradutor, o que reduz um pouco o risco de escalada.” [15:00]
• Agenda Prospects: The meeting is expected to center on bilateral economic issues and the Venezuelan situation, possibly also Palestine ([16:48]).

5. The Trump “Conselho da Paz” for Gaza: Structure and Controversy

• Conceit & Leadership: Trump has declared himself permanent chair and is charging nations to join—a marked personalization of diplomacy.
• Membership Issues: Key European nations (Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Norway, Sweden, Slovenia) refused to participate; the council includes "autocrats and justice suspects" but no Palestinian representatives:
  • “É um conselho sobre o Brasil, que não inclui brasileiros.” [19:26]
  • Quoting Financial Times: “Trump lança conselho da paz com autocratas, monarcas absolutistas e perseguidos pela justiça internacional.” [20:18]
• Lula’s Position: Lula critiques the council but suggests possible Brazilian participation only if the scope is limited to Gaza—underscoring Brazil’s nuanced diplomacy.

6. Current State in Gaza

• Ongoing destruction and displacement: Israel controls 55% of Gaza; 70,000 Palestinians dead and hundreds of thousands displaced in two years ([22:17]).
• The so-called peace plan:
  • Aims for Hamas disarmament and Israeli withdrawal, but Netanyahu states demilitarization comes before reconstruction ([22:29]).
  • “Esse é o primeiro (plano) que não fala absolutamente na criação de um Estado Palestino.” [23:35]
  • The council holds power without including Palestinian voices or addressing the West Bank situation.

7. Historical Context and Implications

• Trump’s approach discards multilateral frameworks (such as the UN) in favor of personal control.
• Brazil’s foreign policy balances assertiveness with strategic pragmatism to navigate U.S. whims and shifting alliances in a region under new American pressure ([12:16]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lula and Trump’s Chemistry:

  • “Trump gosta do Lula. Difícil explicar o motivo. Teve química.”
    —Guga Chakra [02:50]

• On U.S. Attitude Towards Allies:

  • “O documento divulgado… diz que 'estaremos prontos para tomar medidas focadas e decisivas que promovam concretamente os interesses dos Estados Unidos.'”
    —Natuza Nery [12:16]

• On Mexico’s Strategy with Trump:

  • “Claudia Sheinbaum não vai à Casa Branca... evita, jamais entra em atrito com o Trump.”
    —Guga Chakra [10:39]

• On the Gaza Peace Council:

  • “É um conselho sobre o Brasil, que não inclui brasileiros.”
    —Guga Chakra [19:26]
  • “O multilateralismo está sendo jogado fora pelo unilateralismo.”
    —Guga Chakra summarizing Lula’s critique [20:18]

• On Gaza’s Destruction:

  • “Israel ainda ocupa 55%... 70 mil palestinos morreram.”
    —Guga Chakra [22:17]

• On the New Approach to Gaza:

  • “Esse é o primeiro [plano] que não fala absolutamente na criação de um Estado Palestino.”
    —Guga Chakra [23:35]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:02–01:24 | Summary of Lula–Trump phone call, main topics | | 02:50–04:14 | Discussion on Lula–Trump chemistry and political background | | 07:33–10:10 | Brazil’s balancing act: economic/diplomatic strategy| | 12:16–13:46 | U.S. defense doctrine and regional geopolitics | | 13:46–16:23 | Risks/opportunities of Lula visiting Trump in DC | | 16:48–17:42 | Expected agenda for the Lula–Trump meeting | | 17:42–19:48 | Origins and issues with Trump’s Gaza Peace Council | | 19:48–22:17 | International reactions to the council; current situation in Gaza | | 23:35–25:21 | Uniqueness of Trump’s latest plan for Gaza |

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, in-depth look at the interplay between personal chemistry and geopolitical maneuvering in Lula’s relations with Trump. It exposes the challenges of maintaining dialogue with an unpredictable U.S. president, the risks and potential of Lula’s upcoming trip to Washington, and the broader implications of the “Conselho da Paz” for global diplomacy and the ongoing tragedy in Gaza. Both Natuza Nery and Guga Chakra underscore the complexity of Brazil’s role—balancing national interests while navigating the erratic tides of American foreign policy.