S4E150: Voices of OCD: Stories That Help Break The Silence

Summary

---

OCD Family Podcast

S4E150: Voices of OCD: Stories That Help Break The Silence

Host: Nicole Morris, LMFT
Date: November 1, 2025

---

Episode Overview

Main Theme:
This episode is a powerful look at how public figures and athletes are using their platforms to share their experiences with OCD, break stigma, and show the many ways OCD can manifest. Host Nicole Morris weaves together stories from celebrities, professional athletes, and their loved ones—exploring the nuances of OCD beyond stereotypes, the far-reaching impact on families, experiences with therapy and medication, and the journey toward self-compassion and hope.

Nicole highlights the critical difference between awareness and understanding, emphasizing how OCD is more than a stereotype about cleanliness—it's a painful, often invisible, and deeply distressing disorder affecting people of any background.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. OCD: Beyond Stereotypes ([03:20]-[06:29])

• Nicole opens by reflecting on common misconceptions: “OCD is not a personality quirk, but it's a painful, exhausting, intrusive, distressing disorder marked by intrusive thoughts, obsessional doubts, distressing uncertainty, and compulsions that can take over someone's life.”
• OCD doesn't discriminate by race, gender, religion, or socioeconomic status; it affects celebrities and everyday people alike.

2. Sheena Shay: Battling OCD & Perinatal Trauma ([06:29]-[14:48])

• Sheena Shay, actress and IOCDF award winner, recalls childhood obsessions but notes, "I knew that it was definitely more than just the organization and the cleanliness and, you know, germs and all of that. It's the intrusive thoughts. So being able to finally openly speak about that and just know that I'm not alone...that helped me so much." ([06:38])
• She describes OCD spiking after miscarriage and during pregnancy: extreme anxiety, obsession over possible harm to her baby, and intrusive thoughts.
• Sheena hid her symptoms, fearing misdiagnosis as postpartum depression: “There were a few [questions] that I lied on because...I don't want them to put me on meds and diagnose me as, you know, postpartum depression, because that's not what this is.” ([13:46])
• Insight: Postpartum/perinatal OCD is real but under-screened; stigma and fear of misunderstanding keep many silent.

3. Braden & Courtney Smith: Scrupulosity and the Athlete’s Mind ([17:08]-[32:51])

• Braden Smith, NFL player, discusses religious OCD (scrupulosity) and the inner torment of compulsive mental rituals: “There's the actual, real, true living God and then there's my OCD God...The OCD God is this condemning...every wrong move you make, like it's smacking like the ruler against its hand.” ([20:06])
• He details his spiral: “...it got to the point where it's so bad. I was, I was a month away from putting a bullet through my brains, like it was that bad.” ([21:26])
• Therapy and medication (“pharmaceuticals”) helped incrementally, but recovery was not linear.
• Courtney Smith, Braden’s wife, describes the difficulty of identifying OCD when symptoms don’t match stereotypes and the toll of repetitive reassurance-seeking: “I just think that for a long time, it was fixated on things like football...why would we question the routines? Because this is what he’s always done.” ([29:42])
• The importance of a strong, educated support network and the resilience of loved ones shines throughout their story.

4. Athletes & OCD: Zane Gonzalez and Aly Raisman ([36:38]-[47:45])

• Zane Gonzalez, NFL kicker, notes how OCD was normalized (and sometimes misattributed to "Type A" traits) in high-pressure environments: “For me, it's something that started at a young age...intrusive thoughts like hurting people's feelings...it kind of takes a toll and to the point where it'll linger on for weeks, months...” ([36:38])
• Zane’s family history of OCD/mental illness contributed to early awareness, but anger and shame were major hurdles.
• Aly Raisman, Olympic gymnast, recalls how compulsions started as superstitions in gymnastics and grew into disruptive, distressing routines: “If I did well, I would try to emulate how to do that again so that I would be safe...if I, you know, touch something a certain amount of times...that would help me.” ([41:11])
• Aly’s OCD led to functional impairment—directly impacting competition performance—until a teammate intervened.
• Both emphasize how OCD is often invisible and misunderstood, especially in environments where perfectionism and ritualized behavior are normalized.

5. Camila Cabello & Jake Shane: Candid OCD and Medication Talk ([56:45]-[61:37])

• Camila Cabello and Jake Shane (host): Openly discuss their experiences with medication (“Lexapro, Prozac”), anxiety, and the evolving nature of OCD themes.
  • Camila: “Mine used to be like...if you don't touch things this amount of times, like, your friends are gonna get mad at you. Like, that was mine.” ([58:06])
  • Jake on childhood compulsions: “You have to hug your parents for 12 seconds or they will get cancer.” ([59:02])
• The dialogue covers cultural and personal stigma around medication, initial family resistance, and the immense relief and life change the right medication and therapy can bring (“I wouldn't be here if it changed my life.” [59:37])
• Functional impairment: both describe how OCD made school and work nearly impossible at times before proper treatment.

6. Howie Mandel: OCD as Creative & Personal Double-Edged Sword ([64:41]-[71:57])

• Howie Mandel, comedian and TV personality, reflects: “This issue is the driving force in my life more than comedy, more than anything, it's what propels me or blocks me.”
• Howie describes a life ruled by intrusive thoughts and avoidance (not shaking hands for years), the role of therapy and “pharmaceuticals,” and deep regret for not seeking help sooner: “If I have any regret, it's that it took me till my mid-40s to identify, help myself, and I put a lot of people through a lot of hell because of the hell that I was going through.” ([67:05])
• He explores how comedy was both a survival strategy and a way to process pain: “Everything I was ever punished for, expelled for, gotten in trouble for...is what I get paid for. My go to panacea is laughter.”
• Advice to others: “Sharing...help is here”, encouraging connection and therapy ([71:19]).

7. The Power of Community & Accurate Representation ([33:32]-[34:00] and throughout)

• Nicole and guests repeatedly drive home the theme: “OCD latches onto what we value. It’s part of the cruelty of this disorder...when people speak out, it chips away at that stigma.”
• Public figures using their platforms to show the painful realities—and hope—of OCD open doors for others to get help.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicole Morris (on the need for accurate awareness):

  "OCD does not discriminate. OCD doesn't care what color you are, what gender you are, what sexual orientation you are or religion you are. It does not care about your socioeconomic status...it can affect you as a child...or as an adult and everywhere in between." ([03:30])

• Sheena Shay (on intrusive maternal fears):

  "There was one time I ate expired sour cream...I started freaking out, 'Oh my God, I'm gonna kill her.'...it was just obsessing over everything...I was gonna harm her." ([10:16])

• Braden Smith (on scrupulosity):

  "There's the actual, real, true living God and then there's my OCD God. And the OCD God is this condemning... every wrong move you make...you're out of here." ([20:06])

• Howie Mandel (comedy and OCD):

  "Everything I was ever punished for...is what I get paid for. My go to panacea is laughter—if I don't laugh, I'll cry." ([68:35])

• Aly Raisman (on compulsions in sports):

  "I would try to emulate how to do that again so that I would be safe. And I think when I was younger, I really believed that that would be the difference..." ([41:11])

• Zane Gonzalez (on support):

  "Finding the right people, the right support are so important. And that is you, family." ([55:09])

• Camila Cabello (on therapy and meds):

  "My meds really helped. It was during COVID...it must happen right now. And they changed my life. I wouldn't be here if it changed my life." ([59:37])

• Howie Mandel (to families):

  "If I could take this opportunity to make a public apology to anybody who's ever spent any dark time with me, I apologize...I think I'm better today than...I was 20 years ago." ([67:05])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:20] – Nicole sets up the episode's different approach: elevating public voices to combat stigma.
• [06:38] – Sheena Shay details her childhood OCD and the reality vs. stereotypes.
• [10:16] – Sheena’s postpartum OCD and the spiral of intrusive maternal fears.
• [17:08] – Braden Smith on recognizing scrupulosity and the power of finding someone who gets it.
• [20:06] – Braden’s battle with “OCD God” and the crushing mental compulsions.
• [21:26] – Braden on suicidality and reaching out for support.
• [26:55] – Compulsions' impact on Braden & Courtney’s marriage.
• [29:42] – Courtney’s realization OCD was present long before diagnosis.
• [36:38] – Zane’s early OCD, intrusive thoughts, and family genetics.
• [41:11] – Aly Raisman on the illusion of control through rituals in gymnastics.
• [44:35] – Aly on functional impairment and the turning point in her career.
• [56:45] – Camila Cabello & Jake Shane’s frank, stigma-breaking conversation about meds.
• [64:41] – Howie Mandel: OCD’s overpowering influence, treatment, and reflection on relationships.
• [67:05] – Howie’s public apology to those affected by his untreated OCD.
• [68:35] – Howie on comedy as survival and his relationship with “darkness.”
• [71:19] – Howie’s core advice: seek help and community.

---

Takeaways & Resources

• OCD manifests far beyond "quirks"—intrusive thoughts and compulsions can be about harm, religion, responsibility, and almost any valued aspect of a person’s life.
• Recovery is nonlinear and can include therapy, medication, self-compassion, and support from loved ones and professionals.
• Stigma is a real barrier but is gradually eroded when public figures share candidly.
• Support teams matter. Family, friends, and understanding professionals make a tremendous difference.
• Seek out evidence-based treatment (ERP, I-CBT) and don’t give up if the first therapist or medication isn’t the right fit.

---

Final Reflections

Nicole closes by reminding us:

“Whether we're little old us, Mr. Howie Mandel, or hey, a six time Olympic medalist, we've learned and we know that we are not alone and we are better together. And that's no trick. All treat.” ([72:00])

---

Further Resources & Full Interviews:
Find links to all the interviews and referenced blogs at OCD Family Podcast website.

---

Note:
Any references to therapy or medication are the result of individual circumstances; listeners are encouraged to consult qualified professionals for their unique needs.

---

Transcript

[Nicole Morris]

Want a recipe for success? Step one, visit ocdfamilypodcast.com courses. Step two, click on my link to browse OCD Training School's amazing course catalog. Step three, enroll. And step four, enjoy learning with no added cost to you. You can support the OCD family community while grabbing some continuing education or learning how to bridge yourself to self help strategies for OCD. Again, that's ocdfamilypodcast.com courses and use my special link to sign up today. Hey boo. Happy Halloween. See what I did there? Oh, fam. OCD Awareness Month is wrapping up and I am here to join the loved ones and chosen family surrounding our OCD warriors to help amplify voices, fight stigma and bring clarity to what OCD actually is and what it isn't. And so, in the spirit of awareness, let's get to it. I'm Nicole Morris, licensed marriage and family therapist and mental health correspondent. And let me be the first to say welcome to the family, the OCD family that is. I am here to create a community of support for family members, spouses, partners, parents, adult children, as there may be adult words, and chosen family of OCD sufferers and their community. I've had over 22 years of experience in the mental health field, but please note that this information does not qualify or substitute as a diagnostic evaluation, therapy or treatment and it is presented on an as is basis. Please follow up with a qualified mental health provider in your area regarding concerns for yourself or loved ones. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's get started.

[Howie Mandel]

Started.

[Nicole Morris]

All right, all right, all right. So have you ever had a situation where you're like, I need, let's say, more socks. So you're like, you know what? I'm running low on socks. I'm gonna do a load of laundry for socks. And then you go to do socks and you're like, oh my goodness, there are wet clothes in the washing machine. I'm going to move them over to the dryer so I can wash my socks. But as you open the dryer, the dryer is full of dry clothes, at least ready to be folded, but full in the dryer, keeping the clothes from the washer from easily moving over. Have you ever had this happen, like that chain reaction, that domino effect where you're like, oh my gosh, I just want to wash some socks? Well, this has been the story with me and the podcast this fall. First it was the Internet, then it was my editing software not wanting to run without an update. But then it was my computer being out of storage, so it refused to run said update. You get the drill. I couldn't make the distribution piece of it work until now. Oh, well. But you know what? I think we can all relate to things not going as planned, right? I don't think any of us had OCD on our bingo card going, yeah, I really hope I get that mental health disorder. That would be great. And when OCD invades the family system, we know just what kind of havoc it can wreak. But today we're going to do something a little different. We're going to be reacting and exploring different voices, different people who have spoken out with very public platforms about their lived experience of ocd. Names you may know, like Ali Raisman, Camila Cabello, Braden Smith. Actually, Brayden's wife is going to share a little bit there. Sheena Shay, Zayn Gonzalez, Howie Mandel, just to name a few. And. And I've sourced this material all in one place. One stop Shop for us to gain some learning, some perspective and some encouragement from these brave and courageous warriors. Because OCD does not discriminate. OCD doesn't care what color you are, what gender you are, what sexual orientation you are or religion you are. It does not care about your socioeconomic status. It does not care whether you are a celebrity, a pro athlete, or even an Olympian. OCD impacts everyone. It can affect you as a child, it can show up as an adult and everywhere in between. And I hope you find this helpful. I know this was really powerful for me, the way they've been able to disseminate and educate the broader public that OCD is not a personality quirk, but it's a painful, exhausting, intrusive, distressing disorder marked by intrusive thoughts, obsessional doubts, distressing uncertainty, and compulsions that can take over someone's life. But when people speak out, it chips away at that stigma. And when public figures use their platform to tell the truth, that opens the door for more people to get help and more families to understand. So we're gonna get started here, but I do wanna make a trigger warning, y'.

[Kelly Warner]

All.

[Nicole Morris]

We're going to talk about some different themes throughout our time together. We're going to talk about suicide, about miscarriage. So I just like to give people the heads up that is coming. There will be some cursy words. I just like to give you that informed. So please proceed with discretion. Also, to check out any of these voices featured in their full interviews, please jump over to this episode's blog at OCD family podcast.com where I have all these chitty chats cited. Also, just a note that we will be pausing intermittently during the interviews to help break down, make sense of, or provide further learning on what's being shared. This allows for not only fair use of the content, but also opportunities for the fam here to be in the conversation, clarify as needed, or expand on all that jazz. Okay, so earlier this year, Sheena Shay sat down with the director of operations at the International OCD Foundation, Matthew Antonelli. Sheena is an actress and television personality who was an original cast member on the Bravo reality show Vanderpump Rules, which ran for 11 seasons. And Sheena made guest appearances on the spinoff of the Valley. Sheena is also the host of the podcast Shenanigans. She released her self written memoir, My Good side, and she was the IOCDF's 2024 Illumination Award winner for her advocacy that has helped to break stigmas about O C D. So let's hear how OCD first came on the radar for Sheena.

[Matthew Antonelli]

Before you found us, before you came to the conference, before, you know, the foundation connected you with a new prescriber. What did you think OCD was?

[Sheena Shay]

Definitely the obsessive thoughts I knew. And that's something that I've struggled with my whole life. I remember even just as a kid being at the grocery store and only wanting to step on certain color tiles or looking up and counting certain things in like, a classroom. And I also like to be very organized and, you know, you see like, Chloe Kardashian's like, oh, my ocd. And like the way her pantry looks and stuff, I'm like, well, that's me too. But I knew that it was definitely more than just the organization and the cleanliness and, you know, germs and all of that. It's the intrusive thoughts. So being able to finally openly speak about that and just know that I'm not alone, I mean, that helped me so much too.

[Matthew Antonelli]

Definitely. And that's what's gonna help continue people getting into the right treatment.

[Nicole Morris]

Yeah.

[Courtney Smith]

Okay.

[Nicole Morris]

So as Sheena gave us a good overview of what she thought OCD was, let's hear how Matthew builds upon that.

[Matthew Antonelli]

I didn't think the mental illness that I was struggling with looked like what my understanding as a teenager of what OCD was. So I kind of rejected that or thought like, that doesn't apply to me.

[Nicole Morris]

Right.

[Matthew Antonelli]

And that rejection prevented me from having accurate or effective treatment for a long time.

[Sheena Shay]

Yeah.

[Matthew Antonelli]

It wasn't until my 30s that I started doing exposures and and same.

[Sheena Shay]

Yeah.

[Matthew Antonelli]

And it's been life changing. You know, it's just such a different experience when you're given the tools for the actual disorder that you're struggling with.

[Sheena Shay]

I think I definitely thought it was more of the compulsions than the obsessive part of it. And just obsessing over the compulsions. I remember a girl I went to college with was on MTV's True Life. I have OCD. And every time she would have to walk in the door, she would have to tap it three times and do. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't.

[Nicole Morris]

Have any of that.

[Sheena Shay]

Like, I did think it was different.

[Matthew Antonelli]

Or I can hide it better than, like, I'm. I have my own compulsions, but I'm not gonna do them in front of everyone, you know, so then that must not be what I'm dealing with, because I can control it to a certain degree.

[Sheena Shay]

And I also never noticed her do any of that stuff until I watched her episode. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea. But I knew I didn't do stuff like that. So I was like, I guess it's not that, but it is.

[Kelly Warner]

But it was.

[Sheena Shay]

There's different forms, you know, and that.

[Matthew Antonelli]

Specific show you're referencing is actually one of the first cultural representations that I remember of OCD as well. We were fed to think oc. It was just these, you know, they almost want to sensationalize it and make it seem even, you know, crazier, bigger, you know, and that was part of why I never connected with having ocd, because I didn't have a representation in the media.

[Sheena Shay]

Right.

[Matthew Antonelli]

And then you come in and you change that narrative. You allow people to have an accurate representation of what OCD is. And now that you have those tools and resources, we can just share them with the next generation.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, so if you're wondering, Nicole, why are you playing this clip? This is why. OCD Awareness Month. And really, the heart and mission of this podcast is to help provide better representation and support so people and loved ones can realize, oh, OCD can look many different ways, but it functions like this. And not only that, but there's hope when we can not only clock ocd, but treat it with evidence based practices. Now let's hear more about how OCD spiked in a bigger way for Sheeana in adulthood.

[Matthew Antonelli]

I'm curious, you know, you talked a little bit about how OCD showed up early in your life when you were going through your postpartum period. Could you talk a bit about how your OCD Was, you know, coming out around after Summer's birth.

[Sheena Shay]

I feel like having a miscarriage definitely was one of the triggers, because then when I got pregnant again, the entire time I was pregnant, I was worried that I was also gonna lose this baby. I didn't feel her move until I was 22 weeks, five days. That was, like, the first time I felt, like, a real kick. Anything before that was like, a flutter or gas or. I'm like, is it. I don't know. I got a fetal Doppler, and I was, like, making sure at home that she was okay. And I felt like I just started obsessing over that every day. I'm like, okay, I. I can't eat this. There was one time I ate expired sour cream, and I called my mom, and I started freaking out because I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, I'm gonna kill her. Like, I didn't realize. And it was just, like, obsessing over everything that, like, I was gonna do something wrong and I was gonna harm her. And then after I gave birth to her, just with. They pumped me with magnesium and painkillers and all of this. When she came out, she was limp, she was blue. She didn't make a sound. And I was like, now I've had a stillborn. Like, I was so. I'm like, I did something wrong. I got pumped with too many drugs, and now this is, like, my fault. And it was so traumatic that then that triggered even more things. And so it was just like, from losing the baby to having the baby come out. It's not like the movies where she didn't just cry the second she came out. It was then worrying about, she's going to die of sids, she's going to stop breathing, she's going to choke. And it was just so many things. I was so afraid of doing anything alone with her because what if something happens? Am I going to know? Like, I could take all of the baby CPR classes choking this and that. And I was like, but what happens if I'm actually in a crisis? Am I going to know what to do? And it wasn't that crazy before I had a baby. It wasn't like I was worried about my own safety every day or if I do this, this is going to happen. It really, I think, triggered when I had the miscarriage.

[Braden Smith]

Yeah.

[Nicole Morris]

Sheena, solidarity, sister. And all the virtual hugs to you.

[Matthew Antonelli]

And I think having the trauma rub up against, you know, these intrusive thoughts. If it feels like this has happened to me, it can be really difficult as someone suffering with ocd to separate out what's a reasonable concern to be worried about and what is my OCD speaking, you know, informing. And I think, you know, when it comes to this story around perinatal OCD in general, especially postpartum, so many young new parents feel that way and are afraid to talk about it. But your lack of fear about talking about it is what's inspiring this generation and allowing people to understand themselves, to not feel crazy.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Matthew Antonelli]

To have a name and a diagnosis attached to what they're struggling with. And that's because of you.

[Kelly Warner]

Thank you.

[Matthew Antonelli]

From the whole community.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Thank you.

[Nicole Morris]

I really appreciate Matthew making that point. Trauma is a tricky bitch, and it can be a co traveler with ocd. We know OCD is incredibly opportunistic. So if we already have a vulnerability for a trauma with perhaps a feared possible self that worries, hey, maybe I'm irresponsible. OCD can come in hot with those doubts, and it can make any person absolutely miserable. Let's hear a bit more on how that fear impacted Sheena.

[Sheena Shay]

I mean, I was afraid to talk about it for about a year and a half. Like, I didn't open up about any of this because I just. I didn't want it to be real. I didn't want to, you know, admit the things that were going on inside of my head. And it was definitely a struggle to open up a bell. At my six week checkup, they just give you a questionnaire. You answer, I don't know, say maybe 20 questions to determine if you have postpartum depression. And that is, like, your only checkup. It's like, okay, cleared to have sex again, Work out, you're good to go. But when I was answering these questions, there were a few that I lied on because I knew it wasn't ppd. I knew it wasn't that, but I'm like, I don't want them to put me on meds and diagnose me as, you know, postpartum depression, because that's not what this is. So I'm like, I'm just gonna lie on these few questions and I'm gonna hide my truth because, like, my doctor, like, I'm. No, I'm not doing that. And it was over a year of just the intrusive thoughts and everything that finally I did open up to my therapist.

[Nicole Morris]

Oh, such great points. Baby blues or postpartum depression have become routine screeners here in the States. But not a lot of people realize postpartum or perinatal OCD more broadly is also a thing. And while mothers or primary caregivers can be impacted by this, this can also happen for dads, aunts, uncles, godparents, you name it. Also, I have to wonder if Sheena worried that the drugs during her labor were a potential cause for her traumatic birth. Was she concerned whether being on medication or being told she had some kind of postpartum could negatively impact her or her daugh? Sure, maybe that's just me wondering out loud, but you can see why people fear to speak up about postpartum issues of any kind, let alone ocd. What will people think? Is something about this my fault? What are the consequences going to be? And fam, that's why we have compulsions, because consequences yield this terrible, unwanted and repeated distress. So we try to survive, whether through mental acts, physical acts, avoidance. Sheena, this is so powerful and I'm so thankful for you sharing your story. So next we are going to hear from both Braden and Courtney Smith. Braden Smith is an NFL offensive tackle for the Indianapolis Colts. Go Colts. And earlier this year he started speaking out about his struggles with OCD with the Indianapolis Star, which, as a reminder, is going to be linked over on this episode's blog along with all the interviews I'm pulling from today's episode. And Braden is one of three athletes we'll be hearing from during this episode, and his story is a powerful reminder of how OCD does not discriminate. So one of Braden's main themes, or OCD subtypes, is religious scrupulosity, or scroop for short. And I'm going to let Braden explain what he means by that. But just remember, themes are as vast as the creative brain's thinking them. So like Sheena and Matthew discussed in the last segment, just because you or your loved one's OCD may not look like she or Braden's or her friend from college doesn't mean it's not ocd. We are learning and raising awareness about how OCD functions. So let's take a listen.

[Braden Smith]

I wasn't officially diagnosed with religious scrupulosity until December, but there was like, I kind of was like almost self diagnosed at the time. I kind of realized I had something. Like during the season we had, we had a player who was on the practice squad who also had religious scrupulosity too. And he was like talking to me. He's like, because I had some stuff going on with my body at the time, he was asking if he could pray for me about my body, like healing. And I was like, man, you need to pray for me. With my mind and stuff like that. I got some stuff going on. So I started talking to him about some of the things that were just, like, floating through my mind. And he told me about the same stuff. And, like, he was like, yeah, like, I've had the same pain, and told me he had religious scrupulosity, which was, you know, it's kind of one of those things where it just kind of gave me, like, some relief just knowing someone else had it. Because for the longest time, like, I thought I was going crazy. And, you know, it still feels like you're going crazy, but, like, it's kind of nice to know that I wasn't alone at the moment.

[Nicole Morris]

Yes, Braden, say it again for the people in the back.

[Braden Smith]

It's kind of nice to know that I wasn't alone at the moment. But, yeah, like. And that was in the middle of the year. But, yeah, during March, through that entire time, like, it was just kind of, like, constant guilt, you know, just kind of like the impending doom feeling. Constantly reviewing things in my head. Like, that's the one thing that was going on with my OCD was it's nothing you can see on the outside. There are things going on inside my mind.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, fam, any guesses on what subtype is sometimes labeled as this where mental compulsions predominantly preoccupy the warrior? Well, if you were guessing pure, oh, you would be right. Pure O is categorized by more mental acts or compulsions. So it isn't that there are no compulsions, but the mental reviewing, checking, replaying, reassurance seeking are major repeat offenders. So let's keep listening so we can hear how some of those mental compulsions showed up.

[Braden Smith]

For Braden, it was just a constant, like, rumination going down different rabbit holes. And, you know, and started off just like the perfectionism, and then it evolved into different ways I could be separated from God. Like, and there's some crazy themes. And, you know, I'll latch on to certain pieces of the Bible, certain scriptures, like, talking about, like, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So I'm like, oh, like, if I say, like, if I think something bad about God, then, you know, I'm going to hell selling my soul to the devil type stuff like that was a prominent theme.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, quick pause here to note how the compulsion chat also introduced some of the obsessions we've been learning about. What's the core fear underlying? You aren't perfect for Braden. It's multifaceted. And we'll learn more about that as he continues to share. But being separated from God has entered the chat. This would be that obsession behind the religious group. Let's keep going.

[Braden Smith]

It's basically like I have an alter ego. I basically call it my OCD God because there's the actual, real, true living God and then there's my OCD God. And the OCD God is this condemning, you know, basically it's like this. Every wrong move you make, like it's like smacking like the ruler against its hand, like, you know, another bad move, like, ben, you're out of here. And yeah, it's just like that constant like rumination. It's like everything you wouldn't want in God was my ocd. And that felt very real to me. Like I could know the truth, but inside, like I couldn't. I could tell you everything I was thinking was crazy, but inside it felt very real and I couldn't shake that. Two very, two different realities that I was living and just constantly living in my head. And, you know, I was physically present, but I was nowhere to be found. I did not care about playing football. I didn't care about hanging out with my family, with my wife, my newborn son. Like I wasn't there at all. And it obviously got to the point where it's so bad. Like I was, I was a month away from putting a bullet through my brains, like it was that bad. And it's all like a complete different narrative was going on in my head and I couldn't get out of that narrative.

[Nicole Morris]

Braden virtual hugs my guy. OCD sucks. And listen, this is also a good time to point out that we are talking about Braden's mental health here. This isn't a podcast on faith or theology. And I know many different religions have themes of reverence, discipline and spiritual warfare to name a few. But what Braden is describing here wasn't value driven engagement in his faith. He was talking about a fear driven and repeated worry about his doubt. So while I realized this topic right here could be and has been an entire episode in and of itself, health before fam. I want to at least note the difference and encourage mental health practitioners, loved ones and warriors to work with their faith leaders for a value driven faith journey. But work with the mental health providers when it comes to scrupulosity. Okay, let's continue.

[Braden Smith]

Football, like, I've been in that for so long and the way I always earned love was by performing really well. And when I didn't perform well, I was punished. You know, I was, I wasn't loved. So it's like, there wasn't such thing as grace and unconditional love. Everything was always conditional. And so that flowed into my work, home, life, into faith. And there was only one person that was ever perfect, and that was Jesus. And when you're trying to live up to that standard, actually try to live that out. It'll drive you nuts. And basically my mind was telling me I have to live that out.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, fam. So here's another piece of the puzzle on his fears. Underlying perfectionism. See how we're developing a greater understanding for the O in ocd. Okay, Braden, tell us more.

[Braden Smith]

And basically, I could, I thought, like, if I had any type of these thoughts go through my head, like, you know, because it sounds like there's another voice saying these things. And, you know, people will say, oh, like it's the devil talking to me. But, I mean, it's OCD pretty much. Is that for me, just, like, saying these things, like, and convincing me, like, because it plays out every scenario. It's like, maybe I do, like, doing these evil things. Maybe I do, like, dark things. Like, and then it feels very real because then, you know, the thoughts come in and then the feelings start coming in and it starts mixing and it confuses you. And then you just get so frustrated because I'll be doing compulsions all the time and you can't see them, but, I mean, they got a little bit noticeable because I'd be, like, saying things, kind of mumbling under my breath. But, like, I'd be in compulsive prayers. Like, and it's not like a prayer of love. It's a prayer of compulsions. Just like saying the same things over and over and over again. And whenever I did that, it just gave all those thoughts. It basically told my brain that those thoughts were important. It kept giving relevance to them. So the more I got into those compulsions, the worse it got, the more those thoughts came, the more they branched out into different types of ways. Like, it just got to be very overwhelming and just couldn't get my head above water.

[Kelly Warner]

Whew.

[Nicole Morris]

Whether Braden knows it or not, he described the self reinforcing behavior of why OCD thoughts get stuck so well. When we respond, our brain learns it has to respond. And as more attention is given to these doubts, they feel more and more relevant and more and more dire. So now let's hear how this all started to come to a head for Brayden mid season last year.

[Braden Smith]

Yeah, I mean, we tried a lot during the season. Like, I finally got into therapy in the Middle of the season. That helped very temporarily. Like maybe an hour after the session, I felt, well, but then I'd be right back into it. I got put on pharmaceuticals in the middle of the season, and obviously, like, I had to take a leave of absence during the season, and I had to go to a mental health facility for 48 days. And, you know, 48 days is a long time. And I was marginally better after that, but still just head was underwater, just trying to get breath. And, you know, when people talk about living in, like a dark cloud, like, I understand what that was like. Like, you can. There's joy going around all around you, but you can't even for a second get out of your own way, get out of your head. Like, you're literally in that place where you cannot escape. And it's literally my own personal hell that I was living in for basically a year.

[Nicole Morris]

Oh, so much helpful inside, Braden. So Braden mentioned getting into therapy, and we don't know what type of therapy that was, but even good evidence based therapy can become compulsive. Just like Braden was describing, he was good for that session or maybe the hour following, and then boom, back to baseline. I also appreciated that Brayden talked about starting pharmaceuticals. We'll chat more about medication later in this episode. But I'm also coming to learn that many of these celebrity voices like to use that word, pharmaceuticals. And even after that, or even after a residential or higher level of care setting, Brayden was still struggling. And I appreciate that he shared that because sometimes our treatment plans require multiple steps or some repeats. We've talked about this with our other guests, such as John Teller and Ali Garza, to name a few. And that doesn't mean that there's not hope, But I just really appreciate and think it does a lot of good that Brayden can also normalize this too. Okay, so we're going to hear from Brayden's wife Courtney here in a minute. But first, let's hear how Brayden was experiencing OCD's impact on his relationship with her.

[Braden Smith]

With the OCD, like, I go to people for reassurance. Like going back to compulsions, going back to reassurance. Like, I'd always ask her and she'd tell me the same things over and over, and they're true, but for me, I can't get that past my own self. Like, my mind will find different ways. Well, she said that was true, but then my mind will give me a different reason. Well, if you said something this way, if you thought it this way, if Your intentions were such and such. There's never an answer. And OCD displays on uncertainty. And with faith, that is the greatest thing of uncertainty, because it's. It's faith for a reason. It's not knowing, but it's believing in things that are not seen. And so OCD getting attached to that, which is basically, I was living in my own hell. And, yeah, it was just. It was not. It was not a good time. A good time at all.

[Nicole Morris]

Well said, Braden. Okay, now for Courtney's side of things.

[Courtney Smith]

I wanna clarify. He's always had ocd. We just didn't know that. And so, like, he. When he told me, I think I have scrupulosity, I told him, like, I don't think that that's true. And we've been together 10 years, and we've married for six. And this summer, he was like, courtney, I think that I have scrupulosity. And I was like, how did you find that? Because when he was looking for reassurance, not only would he talk to me, he would talk to, like, five or six people that he thought were really, like, into their faith. And so he thought that he could believe what they said, but that he cycled through all of us. So, like, the people that weren't living with him thought he was getting better because they were reaching out, or he was reaching out to them less, but he was really just finding more people to try to get reassurance. And that's one of the things with, like, what he was going through with the religious ocd. It's not beneficial to say, oh, it's just the enemy attacking you. It's just the enemy. Because it's definitely way more than that. It's. It is the enemy, but it's. It's also, like, it's a mental. It's a mental disorder, like, what he has. And that was really hard. And the reason why I don't think that I fully believed him when he said, I think I have O, C, D, I was like, well, you don't touch things differently. Like, you're not super, super clean. Like, I think what people think OCD is, like, it is that way for some people, but I don't. That's not how it manifested for him. And so I think that when we talk to his psychiatrist. I mean, I'm sorry, his psychologist, mid season, right before he got put on pharmaceuticals, he was like, you know, through our therapy, like, he's had OCD since probably he was in third grade.

[Nicole Morris]

I mean, how many of us can relate, right? Whether it's for ourselves or our loved ones. We go. We know our person. Ocd. What? No, but a lot of times it's because we have an idea of what OCD looks like, which we may have heard about, and it may or may not have been represented correctly, but we didn't hear a lot about how OCD functions. Listen, as Courtney shares more about this.

[Courtney Smith]

Like, I can trace this back through his life. I just think that for a long time, it was fixated on things like football. And I just, as an athlete myself, thought, well, he's just doing these routines because this is what he has to do to be successful, because he's been successful. So why would we question the routines? Because this is what he's always done.

[Nicole Morris]

Yes, Courtney. Such helpful insight from her as well. Am I right, fam? Again, the routines drove that need for perfectionism in many ways, and the dude went on to be drafted into the NFL. Plenty of little boys growing up, even talented athletes never make it to the NFL. So why would we question this drive or the behaviors that fueled those drives? It makes sense. And that's not to say if you're an athlete, that that means you're going to end up with ocd. No, but you can see how OCD could make itself real cozy in the lifestyle of a person playing competitive sports, where one wrong move could make or break you. So now we're going to hear about what it was like when that intensity then got latched onto Braden's faith.

[Courtney Smith]

When it got latched onto religion, it was a much different experience. And so I definitely saw him with a big shift. I think after we had Wyatt, our son, he was like, thinking about, how do I want to raise Wyatt? You know, Wyatt's gonna find out who I am as a person. I think that's where a lot of this started. And I didn't notice how really, quote, unquote, bad it was getting until about May in May. I was like, I've tried everything. I went to my people who are super spiritual. And I was like, what would you say if your husband was saying these things to you? And, I mean, it was like, every single thing they said, I'm like, I've done that. I've said that. I've pointed to scripture. I've told him, like, you know, there's only one person who's ever walked the earth that's been perfect. Like, I don't understand why you think that you're him. And I also don't understand why you would think that Jesus came and died for Every single person on this earth except for you. Like, why are you the one person that he's like, oh, well, I'm gonna go on the cross, but not for Braden Smith. Like, I don't understand. So that's when I really started to be like, there's something more intense going on here. And then it was really mid season when I was like, all right, this is not what we're doing anymore. And then that's when he got into therapy. I mean, we pretty much had, like, a. A roundup of people like, that are on our support team. Our financial advisor, who's amazing, his agent. And I was like, we gotta do something now, because this is not going well. And this is getting worse and worse by the week.

[Nicole Morris]

Whew. We can hear how the OCD compulsions, reassurance seeking, rumination, started to expand into how Courtney was even responding to Braden. And we can't out logic ocd. Right, fam? So there wasn't a scripture or prayer or explanation that was going to give his brain information and move on because he was caught in this core fear of his doubt. So good on her to realize, hey, how we're addressing this, how it's functioning, how we are responding to it. Like, this isn't working. And she got Braden and all of his support team, and she said, we gotta do something else. I mean, well done, Courtney. That is so hard, but it's so important, and that's the power and strength we get to bring to our loved ones. Fam. Truly amazing. So let's wrap up with some final thoughts from Braden.

[Braden Smith]

I care about my faith. Like, Courtney, she didn't have, like, the postpartum ocd, but, like, she cares about our child. Like, the things you care about is what it usually latches onto. It's like. And, yeah, just. And that's the worst thing, because obviously you care about the things that it's latching onto. And it's. Your brain means. Well, it means to avert any type of dangers, but it's not doing in a helpful way. Like, you're literally in that place where you cannot escape. And it's literally my own personal hell that I was living in for basically a year. And with the ocd, like, I was just. It was not. It was not a good time. A good time at all.

[Nicole Morris]

Oh, right. Braden. Absolutely. And if you have been around the OCD awareness scene for a hot minute, you know, it's commonly shared that OCD latches onto what we value. It's part of the cruelty of this disorder. But it strikes me that earlier in his sharing, Braden talked about how there was no grace for mistakes in his past. And yet one of the best gifts I think he's given us in this interview is giving grace and compassion by saying, hey, OCD brains mean well. They're trying to avert danger. It's just not doing it in a helpful way. And that's that. No fault of Brayden or Courtney or you and me. That's the brain. Braining alarms are going off constantly and learning to recognize those false alarms is half the battle. So thanks for modeling that compassion, Braden, and thank you to both Brayden and Courtney and theandystar for your amazing interviews, which again are going to be linked in full over on this episode's blog. All right, fam, if you're getting value out of our conversation, but you haven't hit subscribe or followed OCD family Podcasts wherever you enjoy your podcasts and YouTube, please take a moment, no time like the present to hit that button. It's free, it's easy, and it ensures that not only will you never miss an episode, but that more folks can find the OCD family community. Because, fam, we know we're better together. Now back to today's chat. So since we're in an athlete state of mind, let's just introduce our next two voices, Zang Gonzalez and Ali Raisman. Zang is another NFL football player, as it happens, and he is currently a place kicker for the Washington Commanders. He set the NCAA FBS record for career field goals made at Arizona State University before he was drafted into the NFL in 2017, and he's been open about his OCD since he started in the NFL. But he gained renewed attention in 2025 after a clip of him compulsing during a pre kick ritual went viral. Ugh, poor guy. Can you imagine? As if compulsions aren't miserable enough to have it go viral, but hey, talk about making lemonade out of lemons. It also served as a door opening moment for wider spread discussion and awareness about OCD, and it even led to Zane receiving the 2025 Illumination Award from IOCDF. Additionally, we are joined by Ali Raisman, the former Olympic gymnast who is the second most decorated American gymnast of all time. She has won six Olympic medals, including gold medals for team antiflora exercise in 2012 and she is an outspoken advocate for survivors of sexual abuse and other causes, including ocd, which ultimately led to her partnership with the IOCDF and this Pretty hot off the this interview. So here we will find IOCDF's Kelly Warner as she interviews both Zayn and Ally. So let's listen and hear a little more about their lived experience of ocd.

[Zane Gonzalez]

So with me it's something that started at a young age. My mom got diagnosed with like adhd, OCD and bipolar disorder. Kind of had a lot of mental stigmas going around and my dad, an amazing man, was always there to help out with her in a lot of different ways. And so my OCD came about, about, around like fifth grade, junior high, ish, more or less. It started with intrusive thoughts like hurting people's feelings. And I feel like that's something that's major with me. And it kind of takes a toll and to the point where it'll linger on for weeks, months and stuff like that. The thing like coming about. So for that, that was just a big struggle for me. And that led getting the diagnosis at early age, figuring out what it was, and then kind of understanding like, hey, this is a normal thing, like it's okay, you don't have to like hide it as much. And for a while there was a lot of anger that would come with it, like why do I feel this way? Why do I have the remorse or whatever it may be? And for that it kind of took a major, major toll on me a lot of ways and ended up having to seek anger management. Reasons for with that stuff and over time, throughout high school and stuff like that, I've kind of been able to grow, but that's essentially kind of where it began for me.

[Nicole Morris]

So Zane was fortunate enough to know that he was dealing with OCD at an early age, perhaps because of his own mother's journey and awareness. And a couple things to point out here we get that there's a biological heretical factor to OCD as well as for a host of other mental health and physical health disorders. So one member of the family having OCD doesn't guarantee that other members in the family system will have it, but it can happen. And parents, if that's you, that doesn't mean it's your fault. We have the genes we have, you have the genes you have. And what we do with those genes therein, our strengths lie. Second thing, I appreciate Zane's openness to sharing about the co occurring diagnoses that were accompanying OCD in his own home growing up. And that's because co occurring conditions are really common. It doesn't mean people will or have to have other identifiable disorders, but the research shows us it can be really prevalent. And then thirdly, before we continue, I appreciate how Zane talked about how a lot of his OCD manifested as anger management. Remember, he's talking about his time growing up. And guess what? Irritability and anger in children is often the tip of the iceberg for many things, whether it's anxiety disorders, depression, or other causes entirely. Often when we think of ocd, we think of anxious distress. But OCD can be disgust based, depression based, or even sensory based. Okay, so let's continue because the interviewer, Callie, asks such a great question as a follow up.

[Kelly Warner]

Do you remember a point in time where you didn't know what was going on before the diagnosis?

[Zane Gonzalez]

I would say prior to like, I think my Official diagnosis was 6th or 7th grade. Prior to that, in elementary school, there was a lot of flare ups. Whether it be keep going back to this door and keep having to shut it, or if that door isn't shut, it's a little cracked open. Tomorrow something might come in and something really bad will happen. So it's like those intrusive dark thoughts are the ones that kind of consume and it honestly just trapped my mind in a lot of different ways to where whatever it may be at that young age, whether it be walking through a mall, going to play a soccer game, or even playing football, whenever those thoughts would come flooding and it was just like a tidal wave and it would take me out a lot of times. And whenever that happened, that led to the anger issues. And that's pretty much what led on to going to get the diagnosis and officially figuring out what it is and understanding all that comes with it. And within that, having my family, having my faith and having my dad and mom, who they truly are amazing people, help me through it. There's a lot of crying moments, a lot of why is this happening? Or why is this? And like a deep breath and relax. And for me that was just massive, massive, massive thing because I feel like a lot of times it comes back to people view OCD in different lights and every OCD is a little bit different in many different ways. So the, the looks and the negative attention I would receive at time, which is kind of just taxing, especially for a little kid, because you're just trying to fit in, right? And so after a time you kind of just learned. Once I got that diagnosis, it let me allowed me to learn and accept what it was and get confidence with it.

[Nicole Morris]

Yes, Zayn. And how about for Ally? Let's hear more about her story.

[Kelly Warner]

I feel like OCD showed up for me from an early age. I started gymnastics When I was two years old. I am the oldest of four kids, so I think I felt the responsibility of being a very good big sister, which I've always loved being a big sister, but I think I took that very seriously. And then on top of that, the intensity of my gymnastics career from such a young age, I think I started to try to find moments of having control in order to. I guess I thought it would help me do better in my gymnastics career. So I can remember my teammates and I, when we were younger, we would say, knock on wood, and we would literally, you know, knock on our heads. And we thought if we did that, maybe we would have a good competition. Or if we did that, and then I did my best routine, then I would say, okay, well, I have to do that now before every time I. I do a bar routine or a beam routine. And I just remember, you know, gymnastics is such a dangerous sport. So I. I did have a lot of anxiety around practicing or competing, but if I did well, I would try to emulate how to do that again so that I would be safe and injury free as much as I, you know, could try. You know, no matter what, in sports, you. You can't always prevent things from happening. But I tried to do as much as I could, I guess, to prevent it. And I think when I was younger, I really believed that that would be the difference if I, you know, touch something a certain amount of times or if I, you know, ate the same thing before the meats, that that would help me.

[Nicole Morris]

I mean, that makes sense, right? A sense of trying to create control or certainty in an environment that was disciplined, focused, and precise. And not only that, it felt dire because it was also a dangerous sport. Let's continue. As Ali talks about how this took shape into adulthood, as I got older.

[Kelly Warner]

I realize that it was showing up for me more. And I can remember at 2015 World Championships, I was so stressed, and I just. I feel like my OCD was not good there. I just wasn't in a good headspace. And actually, it was the. You know, I really struggled. I didn't make any event finals, which was really devastating for me. And I think it was a really important moment where actually a teammate said to me, you're, I think, stressing yourself out so much with your ocd, and it's not working for you. You're not competing well. You don't seem to be doing mentally well. And it was just a. I almost had to hit a point where it was so hard for me mentally to keep up with that and it also wasn't working, that I think it was eye opening for me, that I just had to figure something out. And ocd, obviously it doesn't just change overnight. It's something I think, at least for me, it's sort of an up and down journey.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, so quick note her teammate mirrors here what we call functional impairment. Allie, girlfriend, this is not working for you. You are not competing. Well, when we think about the D in ocd, it's a disorder when its frequency, duration and involvement in meaningful home life or school, work or social functioning is really negatively impacted. And again, this is a result of our brain braining. So if you've grown accustomed to stacking these routines, conditioned responses, I. E. Compulsions to try and survive, and now it's actually interfering with you living or engaging in your life. That's what we mean by functional impairment and that's when we call this baby a disorder.

[Kelly Warner]

Now in my post traumatics career, I think being in the public eye and then having OCD is a really tricky combination. It definitely exacerbates it because my OCD now shows up in worrying if I hurt someone's feelings, if I said the right thing, and just feeling that I have to be on all the time. And I'm always worrying or wondering if what I said. And so it was really bad years ago, but I would finish speaking at an event like this and I get off stage and I would replay what I said in my head. But oftentimes I was on stage for an hour so I couldn't remember obviously everything that I said. But that would stress me out more. And I. I've done therapy over the years. I do weekly therapy and I'm in a much better place. But I also learned that when I'm over tired, my OCD is worse. So one of my favorite quotes is, if you don't pick a day to rest, your body will pick it for you. So when I'm working too much and traveling too much, my OCD is bad, my body hurts, I feel sick. It just everything is kind of accumulates and it's not good. So I've really learned the importance of having balance. And it's been a nice realization for me because when my OCD is really bad, I almost feel like I'm a little bit nicer to myself about it where it makes me realize that I'm over tired and I'm just doing too much and I have to take a beat.

[Nicole Morris]

So I spy more self compassion and I'm here for it. I'm Also here for what Kelly brought up next, which we've heard echoed throughout all of our athletes sharing to some degree.

[Kelly Warner]

Yeah, you hit on something really important, too. I think that a lot of athletes and individuals watching can relate to, and it's that there's a point where you almost don't want to get treatment because you fear that that's making your performance better, right? Like, that you fear that OCD is actually helping you. And was it not until that friend pointed it out to you that this is not helping that you started to recognize or even just trust in that? Okay, I need some good therapy. I'm trying to think back. I imagine when I was younger, I still was aware that it was not. It was not fun to think about or worry about. Did I, you know, have the right hair elastics or if I had to wear a different leotard than I wore last time, I kind of knew that those things relying on or if I didn't have access to the same food that I normally have, all those things. I think I understood that it wasn't healthy for me, but at the time, it was. So OCD wasn't talked about like it is now. Mental health wasn't talked about like it is now. And so I just don't think I had any tools or it wasn't really talked about. And, you know, some of my teammates also had it. So I think it was very normalized. And it's also something that I don't think that my parents knew. It can sometimes be invisible, and other people might not be able to see it. And even if they can, I think, you know, most adults are really doing the best that they can, and they might not even understand or recognize what OCD is. So I think I knew. And sometimes that can make things more stressful is knowing, being aware that I know I shouldn't be doing this. I know this isn't helping me, but I have to do it.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, fam, did you hear what she just said? Because it was actually pretty incredible. Yes, yes. We love ourselves some normalization. Yes. We agree that OCD hasn't been well understood and mental health more broadly has been stigmatized. But here is the wow moment for me. You know what's not normal? Olympians. Olympians are not normal in the most impressive and superhuman kind of ways. These folks are strong, and on my best day, I couldn't even hold a candle to the Olympian that ends up finishing last in any given sport. They are machines, super machines, and their endurance could eat me for breakfast. Their agility is beyond. So to put this in perspective, I googled how many people qualify for the Olympics on average, out of the entire world population. The answer? Approximately one in 500,000. That's half a million or.000017. That's five zeros, in case anyone was curious. So 0.000017 of the world's population can qualify or make it to the Olympic Games. And that's just the average, because if we look at, say, last year In Paris of 2024, it was estimated that there were 10,400 athletes and the odds were about 1 in 783,432 people that you could qualify and be an Olympian. Okay, so essentially what they're saying is Olympians are modern day unicorns. And yet Ali noted. Oh yeah, yeah, it was kind of normalized because, you know, some of my teammates had ocd, so that helped. What is that a coincidence? I mean, worldwide, we estimate that 1.1 to 1.8% of the global population has OCD and a stat. I found from the World Health Organization, cited back in 2017, that OCD was ranked in the top of the 10 most disabling disorders. And yet Ali notes that she wasn't alone in her lived experience amongst her teammates. You know, that.000017% of people, I mean, that's astounding. And to be clear, I'm not questioning Ally or saying she's wrong, but what I do think is it points to how much more prevalent OCD is than we likely realize. Because for me, the math isn't mathing quite right there for the prevalence to be as normal in such an elite group. Additionally, I think it shows how the controlled precision of sports or competitive careers can entangle with OCD's function, be it that quest for certainty or omnipotence or whatever. Okay, let's continue.

[Zane Gonzalez]

For me personally, I mean, I think a lot of people misconstrue type A with OCD a lot. I just think that's all. They're very similar in some ways, but also extremely different in a lot of different ways as well. So for me, it's like, I've always been a very clean guy and I feel like for the longest time people just thought it's not ocd, you'd like to be clean, blah, blah, blah. And they don't know the thoughts that come along with all that stuff. And that's the part where if you know, you kind of know. If you don't, you kind of Don't. And it's the only. The only thing you can do is just try to educate yourself a little bit on it. And it's like Ted Lasso says, like, be curious, not judgmental. It's like a big saying. I love that saying as well. And it's just like one of those things that really does hit. Like it's in a joking manner, but it does make a lot of sense because a lot of people will see different things and just jump to the conclusion and go about their day and then that's that. Right? So it's like kind of like a. I jokingly tell my wife. It's like a elementary playground, right? So kids will see something, don't ask a question, they'll just do it and then go about their business. And I feel like a lot of adults kind of have the similar mindset in some ways. And whether it's just not wanting to be educated or just don't, I mean, just not caring as much. I just feel like some of those things come into play.

[Nicole Morris]

Oh, these are great points by Zane. So without getting too off track, I'll just note two major differences between OCD and a type A personality. And at this point it should definitely come as no surprise. Fam. We start with the function. On the surface, it might look similar, but OCD is what the return fam that's been around for a while now knows as ego dystonic, meaning it's incredibly distressing, the opposite of who or what you want to be. Tldr it's not in line with your values. So if we think back to Sheena's example about eating the expired sour cream when she was pregnant, she panicked because she was worried that she could have hurt her growing baby somehow. This was not in line with her values or her desires to care for, nurture and protect her daughter. Sheena didn't want to be dangerous. She feared what if she could do something or not respond correctly with the CPR or whatever, resulting in injury or maybe even worse. That's very, very different than type A personality where the goals and values are ego syntonic and that means they are in line with your values, your personal beliefs, or they feel congruent with the way a person views themselves. So if a parent, say, had a preference on how to optimize their diet for eating during pregnancy, this is different. It's not born out of the distress, but rather it's born out of living in congruence with what that person believes. Now, if you're listening and have ever Heard of a disorder called ocpd, or Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder? You might be wondering then, what's the difference between that and type A? For interest sustained on topic, I'll just quickly say it has to do with the D in disorder. When there's functional impairment that lasts for a certain duration and impacts those different areas of functioning, it's a problem. We have transcended a personality type and now it is not functioning for us. So while type A traits could show up anywhere, it's not the same thing as ocd. It's not the same thing as ocpd, for that matter. And for it to qualify as such, it would have to function that way. Okay, let's get back to Zayn sharing about how these misconceptions impacted him and even more specifically, how that looked within his athletic career.

[Zane Gonzalez]

So for me, I feel like those misconceptions a lot. Kind of like especially throughout my high school years, especially with like, kids like that, they would like, try to downplay whatever you're going through in some aspects. And for me specifically, football is a very. Or kicking is very like, similar to golf. It's very precise. Same exact thing, similar to gymnastics. A little bit more athletic than me, but it's one of those things that everything's so detail oriented. So whenever people would try to pretty much like, downplay the whole situation, it would really get to me in a lot of different ways because I knew those thoughts later on, I know those. The next day's thoughts, the next week's thoughts, the next month's thoughts about something that somebody said for not even five seconds. And it's just those things linger on so much. So for me, those took a massive toll. And it just finding the right people, the right family and the people were able to understand and accept you and like, actually see who you are as a person and understand these are the thoughts in your head. And for me, just finding. I mean, my wife's incredible, my family's awesome, and my friends are. They like to tease me a little bit, but in a good way. So it's all really good. And for me, it's kind of been those things you kind of. Nowadays, I just don't let it get to me in a lot of different ways. But as a kid, it's harder said than done.

[Nicole Morris]

I love that because. Did you. Did you hear what he just said? Fam? Finding the right people and the right support are so important. And that is you family. He mentions his wife, his friends, his parents. They've helped so much along the way because they matter. We matter. We matter to our people and they matter to us. And we play a really important role. All right, family. So we have two more voices to feature. How are we doing? I mean, it's powerful, right? So now we're going to switch gears to Camila Cabello. Camila is a singer, songwriter and actress who immigrated to the US at the tender age of six from Cuba. She was a member of the group Fifth Harmony back in the day, eventually breaking out as a solo artist in 2016. 16. Within a year or two of her solo career, she started speaking out about her experiences with OCD and anxiety, which peaked approximately two years before that, in 2020. One of the positives that came out of that dumpster fire of a year was a personal essay that she penned for the Wall Street Journal where she expanded on her struggles, helping to break stigma and making mental health an important topic of conversation. Her learning helped to inspire her art, and she continues to speak about it to this day. So I featured Camila previously and her courage and strength and using her platform to grow awareness. And today we're going to listen to a chat that she had with Jake Shane from therapists with regards to treatment. So again, the full pod will be linked on this episode's blog. But we're going to start off with Jake sharing about his anxiety.

[Camila Cabello]

I struggle. I have the worst anxiety of the worst OCD in the entire world. Like, I'm on meds for it, but.

[Jake Shane]

Oh, I, I have OCD too. And I'm on meds four too.

[Camila Cabello]

What meds?

[Jake Shane]

Lexapro, Prozac.

[Nicole Morris]

Cute. Speaking of Q, what I appreciate even more is their ability and courage to share about being on meds without shame. I mean, instead, they're virtually high fiving. And why is this important? Because again, it breaks down that stigma around considering or taking medication for mental health. And fam. Just because they're on meds for their OCD doesn't mean you or your loved one has to be. That's not what I'm saying. Not everyone will have that as a part of their treatment plan. But this is where it's really important to actually talk with your doctor when it comes to medication. Explore your fears, stigmas and perceptions. And hey, bring it up with your therapist, too. Your team is there to help and to work together and to advocate for you. But I'm just saying, knowing other people like Camilla and Jake are taking medication and it's not the shameful thing is so helpful. Okay, so let's Keep listening.

[Camila Cabello]

How does your OCD manifest? Do you mind me asking?

[Braden Smith]

Because I have not.

[Camila Cabello]

I have really bad OCD as well.

[Nicole Morris]

For me, it's thoughts, intrusive thoughts.

[Jake Shane]

Before, when I was younger, it used to be really bad. Like, just asking myself the same question over and over and over and over and over.

[Camila Cabello]

Yeah, mine used to be like. Like, I, like, have the fear of abandonment. So, like, mine would be like, if you don't touch things this amount of times, like, you're so. Your friends are gonna get mad at you. Like, that was mine.

[Howie Mandel]

And how.

[Jake Shane]

Until. How recently was that?

[Camila Cabello]

It got really bad during COVID obviously.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, so now we're becoming pros at picking up on those obsessions. Right, Fam. And then you can see how those compulsions follow closely behind, but it's always attached to that intrusive thought or that obsessional doubt. Also, I like how they're talking about what themes used to be or how long a certain doubt lasted, because this shows the nature of how OCD can mor. Or even revisit different themes. In fact, some people even describe their OCD as their own version of a mental whack. A mole. Okay, let's continue.

[Jake Shane]

I've actually never talked about, like, the medication thing before, but I. Oh, I'm the biggest.

[Camila Cabello]

I'm like, wait, everyone's on meds? First of all.

[Jake Shane]

I just think, first of all, they really helped me. It helps me a lot. When I was. When I was little, it would manifest that way. I remember being like, you have to hug your parents for 12 seconds or they will get cancer.

[Camila Cabello]

Yes.

[Jake Shane]

And I'd be like, just two more seconds.

[Camila Cabello]

I used to have to say. I used to have to be like, I love you. And then I used to have to hear it back, and then I would have to hear it again and again. Yeah, my meds really helped. It was during COVID I was. I was working at a record label, and I really was passionate about it, but my OCD made it really hard for me to, like, do my work.

[Courtney Smith]

Yeah.

[Camila Cabello]

And I remember my dad really didn't want me to go on meds. He's just, like, old school like that.

[Kelly Warner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jake Shane]

I didn't want to for the longest time either.

[Camila Cabello]

And I was like, this is just. It's a breaking point. Like, it. It must happen right now. And they changed my life. I wouldn't be here if it changed my life.

[Jake Shane]

No, same, same.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay. So again, I just. I love their openness and their vulnerability because I think it's so helpful for people to Know they're not alone. We heard Jake mention that functional impairment making it hard to do his work. Also, he was feeling that impact in meaningful ways within his social relationships. And I really appreciate how Jake and Camilla even talked about how they viewed medicine and how Jake's dad was in total opposition to it. And Camilla was. Same, same. It was so hard for her to even consider trialing it herself. But for them, in their treatment, they also both acknowledge how helpful it was for them, going as far as to say it helped to save their lives. Let's continue.

[Jake Shane]

So are you more. Kind of like, do you suffer more from. Do you feel, like, anxiety or, like, depression?

[Camila Cabello]

Like, I think my anxiety turns into depression.

[Nicole Morris]

Yeah.

[Camila Cabello]

Because, like, my OCD makes it hard.

[Nicole Morris]

For me to get out of bed.

[Jake Shane]

I'm so bogged down.

[Camila Cabello]

And then.

[Kelly Warner]

I know.

[Jake Shane]

I used to feel that way too.

[Camila Cabello]

And then, like, I'm like, I'm so anxious. It's become like, I give up. And that's when it turns into depression.

[Jake Shane]

I feel that.

[Camila Cabello]

You know what?

[Jake Shane]

I definitely been there before.

[Camila Cabello]

I'm like, oh, I'm so anxious. I feel like I don't even have the energy to, like, give to this anxiety anymore. And that's when I'm like, oh, this is depression.

[Courtney Smith]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Camila Cabello]

That's when. But my. I'm anxiety. That's, like, what really hits it for me. Like, I'm the most anxious person on planet Earth.

[Kelly Warner]

Yeah.

[Jake Shane]

No, I feel you.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay. I love how we are hearing what's changed for Camilla. She hears that. She's felt that, that it used to be like that. This says two things to me. Number one, yeah, she does get it. But two, yeah, it can change. There is hope. She was there. Now she's not. I love it. Let's hear more.

[Jake Shane]

I think a lot of different. I feel like I've been on such a journey with, like, mental health stuff. Like, I think that medication really helps. My. My therapist is fucking amazing.

[Camila Cabello]

Yeah, I had to. It's hard to find a good one.

[Jake Shane]

It's hard to find a good one. I. I feel like I worked with, like, maybe three different people until I found. And literally, I was like. I literally tell him sometimes I'm like, I'm so afraid sometimes, like, something's gonna happen to you or you're gonna die. And he's like, the whole point is, like, if you think that your therapist has all the answers and you wouldn't be okay without them, it's like, you have to kill that idea. It's really just you out here and this bitch.

[Nicole Morris]

Yes, I appreciate them talking about finding a good therapist. And and I remember when Dr. Eric Storch once said, finding a good therapist is kind of like dating. And you know, I'm here for an analogy, fam. But seriously, sometimes you get a therapist and you're like, this feels right. And sometimes it's really, really not right. Yeah. And while it can feel hard to start over or share again when looking for a new provider, it is important both for them and for you, that it's a good fit. So I'm going to link the provider search hosted by IOCDF over on this episode's blog, as well as the providers list available on ICBT Online. You can check those out to find trained providers for evidence based practices in ocd. And speaking of therapists and evidence based training, y' all may want to check this out. Hey, real talk, if you've made it this far into the pod, chances are you love learning about ocd. So why not take it up a notch? Head over to ocdfamilypodcast.com courses to browse the OCD Training school's incredible lineup. And when you use my special link, you're not just investing in great education, you're also supporting this podcast at zero extra costs with courses ranging from self help to continuing education for clinicians, offering live and on demand options to fit your needs or your time zone. The opportunities are vast. OCD Training School has your back. And when you use my link, you have the fam's back too. So go check it [e-mail] courses. And now back to the show. Okay, fam, so we've made it to our final featured voice for this episode, and that is Mr. Howie Mandel. Howie is a Canadian actor, producer, television personality and comedian. Well, he was best known back in the day for voicing the adorable gizmo from Gremlins. He's known more recently for his comedy and a recurring judging gig on America's got talent. Almost 20 years ago in 2006, Howie went public about his lived experience of OCD. But more recently, he's partnered up and has been raising awareness with nocd, a telehealth company that provides online therapy specifically for obsessive compulsive disorder using exposure and response prevention therapy. And that brings us to this last interview with past podcast guest, former president of OCD Midwest and current Executive clinical director for NOCD, Dr. Patrick McGrath. So Patrick interviewed Howie again. The full interview is going to be linked on the blog and here's a bit of what Howie had to say.

[Howie Mandel]

This issue is. Is the driving force in my life more than comedy, more than anything, it's what propels me or blocks me. This is like a brick wall. This is like, if you can't get past your intrusive thought, if you can't get past the fear, if you can't. If you. It's so noisy, me not shaking hands. I haven't shaken a hand in. In a long time, but I don't. Because we were talking before we went on the air. Do you want to talk about some of your therapy?

[Braden Smith]

Always respectful of that for anybody.

[Matthew Antonelli]

Yeah.

[Howie Mandel]

The truth for me is this because you are a doctor, but I'm not. I play one on tv. I did play one. Is that if I told you what I do and I've been in, you know, I will tell you that I've been involved in exposure therapy. I've been involved in pharmaceuticals and medicine. I do take medicine right now. I do take a pharmaceutical right now. I. Talking and being open about what I'm just having somebody to talk to is. Is been really good for me. I don't go into specifics because I feel like. Like this has happened before at the beginning. You know, I've been kind of out about it for over 20 years. And when I did talk about things I was doing, I would get bombarded by people going, you said that if you take this, I don't know your biology.

[Nicole Morris]

Okay, so just a quick pause for a few things. Number one, he said something interesting. He said OCD is the driving force for him, even more so than his comedy. And not because he likes it or because it quote, unquote helped him, but because the fear propelled or blocked him. It drove him into action, froze him, or led to avoidance. I mean, same, same Howie. Secondly, I appreciated his apprehension in saying what he did or how he approaches treatment. And here's why. It's the same reason I've been trying to shout or share from the rooftop that OCD can look a million different ways, because we have to understand how it's functioning and address it at that level, whether from a behavioral approach like exposure and response prevention, or from a more cognitive approach like inference based cbt. But also, did you. Did you catch the bit about pharmaceuticals? Fam. I'm telling you, it's a thing. They like that word. Okay, let's hear more.

[Howie Mandel]

If I have any regret, it's that it took me till my mid-40s to identify, help myself, and I put a lot of people through A lot of hell because of the hell that I was going through. It wasn't easy being my wife, being my kids, being my parents. I didn't really have a lot of friends as a kid. I didn't really farewell in public. So it's not. It wasn't easy. It wasn't easy for me, but it's not easy for anybody around me. So if I could take this opportunity to make a public apology to anybody who's ever spent any dark time with me, I apologize, and I'm not making an excuse for it, but I'm. I think I'm better today than a better person to be around, work with, and just have in your life than I was 20 years ago.

[Nicole Morris]

I love that. That's an acknowledgment for you, fam. Yes, OCD is hell for the sufferer, but, yes, OCD affects everyone close to that warrior. And that's not a point to make warriors feel bad or guilty. They're trying to survive too. But how powerful to hear from Howie that acknowledgement on his side of things. And I also really like where Patrick takes this, too, because I found this next part really interesting.

[Braden Smith]

Did that quirkiness as a kid or things or. Or maybe some of the solitude without some of the friends, did that generate into some of the comedy work that you did?

[Howie Mandel]

Well, you know, and that's also. That's a gift and a. And a. And a problem. So for me, comedy, you know, as I tell people everything I was ever punished for, expelled for, gotten in trouble for, alienated for, is what I get paid for.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Howie Mandel]

My go to panacea is laughter. You know, it always comes the. The. The more uncomfortable some I am, the darker something is. The natural place is to try to laugh, because if I don't laugh, I'll cry. And. And. And the. The truth of the matter is, if you go look at any. That the masks of theater are the tragedy and comedy, there's not that much different. You know, tragedy is just an upside down smile.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Yeah. So.

[Howie Mandel]

And the worst times of my life, I have the funniest stories. But if in. In. In order to kind of describe that that's how we laugh. That's what humor is. You're always laughing at darkness, even if you're not laughing at your own darkness. If you're laughing, if you're a little kid and you're laughing at a clown falling down, what are you laughing at? The misfortune of somebody that you think looks funny hurting themselves. I mean, I just took the fun out of the circus.

[Braden Smith]

But.

[Howie Mandel]

But that's what you're. Sorry, everyone, but that's what you're laughing at.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Howie Mandel]

Even if you hear a joke, you know, two guys walk into a bar, it's not a joke unless something horrific and awkward happens to one of them.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Right.

[Howie Mandel]

So I didn't know this, and I couldn't articulate it, but at the most uncomfortable, weirdest moments, I tried to slough it off as kind of funny, weird, awkward. I love weird and awkward because that's where I live. And, you know, we all feel like we are outcasts. We all feel like nobody gets it, that nobody's in our head. Nobody is in your head, but you should know that everybody is in their own head, and everybody doesn't feel like they're invited to the party.

[Nicole Morris]

Dang. Dang. What a statement, huh? Nobody's in our head. Nobody is in your head. But you should know that everybody is in their. Her own head, man. Also, I love how he repurposed tragedy into humor, but it was also interesting to see his points in the relationship between those two emotions, wasn't it? Okay, let's continue.

[Braden Smith]

And some people will say when they're feeling great, it's the scariest time for them because they're worried about when won't I feel great.

[Howie Mandel]

They obsess about that. Yes. I just can't. I can't be complacent. I would love to be.

[Braden Smith]

Yeah.

[Howie Mandel]

But I can't be. And I'm not comfortable.

[Braden Smith]

Someone comes up to you and asks you for advice. What's the advice that you tell people?

[Howie Mandel]

First of all, when somebody comes up to me, I'm fascinated. My first reaction is an amazing compliment that you just threw me a lifesaver because I really was alone and didn't know that there was even anybody that I could share this with. But sharing and this is going to come off like an ad. But it's not an ad. No cd. Believe me. Believe me, it's worth the moment to set up an appointment and talk to somebody who's a lot smarter than me, who is. There's no downside. You know, help is here.

[Braden Smith]

Thank you.

[Howie Mandel]

Thank you.

[Zane Gonzalez]

Really appreciate it.

[Howie Mandel]

My pleasure.

[Nicole Morris]

I love that, because you could look at how he. Look at his successes, look at his life, and would you ever know that he's touched and inspired and grateful for you, for your warriors, for family members when they approach him because he's reminded I'm not alone. I mean, it's a running theme at this point, but OCD does not discriminate so whether you have two pennies to rub together and no one knows you at all, or whether you are the newest headline anywhere in the world, OCD is OCD is ocd. So what a nice way to wrap up our featured voices. And as I know, we heard how elading ocds work. It is the only telehealth platform for the US and beyond that specializes in exposure and response prevention therapy. So when we've heard different guests mention doing exposure therapy, that's what they're talking about. They're talking about exposure in response prevention, erp. So I'm going to link details to NOCD over on this episode's blog, but their app is convenient and easy to download via the App Store or you can check out no CD that's n o c d or treat myocd.com okay family, it's been real, it's been fun, and I know partying is such sweet sorrow. But alas, it's time to go trick or treating with my kiddos. They're so excited and they're bouncing around here with their costumes in tow. But as we sign off this week, I encourage you to learn more about any of the guests that we featured here. Maybe strike up a conversation with your family or friends or even share this episode and help to raise that awareness, that understanding and that hope. Because whether we're little old us, Mr. Howie Mandel, or hey, a six time Olympic medalist, we've learned and we know that we are not alone and we are better together. And that's no trick. All treat. And then join us next week and all month long because we are going back to our OC R D series that stands for OC Related Disorders as we are learning more about BFRBs, BDD, ARFID and OCPD. See you then fam. Thank you for joining me and our OCD Family community. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please please like and subscribe to the OCD Family Podcast wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Did you find this content helpful? Please consider leaving a review. The more people that know they're not alone, the better. For more information regarding today's podcast, please visit ocdfamilypodcast.com and remember to join the email list while you're there. It will provide you with the most up to date information, resources and the download on the family chatter. Oh yeah, nothing says family like making it known that we're not alone. That's right, I went there and you can [e-mail] Therapists are your clients struggling with disgust based contamination ocd? Have you tried upgrading your ERP with the mastery approach? Visit ocdfamilypodcast.com courses and click on my link because I've got just the training for [e-mail] courses courses. You can check out OCD Training School's entire catalog of courses, including Rich Gallagher's course Treating Contamination ocd. Where else can you build mastery over disgust based triggers while supporting the FAM at no extra cost to you? It's a win win. At ocdfamilypodcast.com courses.