← OCD Family Podcast
OCD Family Podcast
S4E154: OCRD Series IV, Part IV: When OCPD Takes Over Your Marriage: Real Stories & Solutions
01:43:52
Loading summary
Transcript136 lines
- [00:00]
A
Want a recipe for success? Step 1 Visit ocdfamilypodcast.com courses Step 2 Click on my link to browse OCD Training School's amazing course catalog. Step three Enroll. And Step four Enjoy learning with no added cost to you. You can support the OCD family community while grabbing some continuing education or learning how to bridge yourself to self help strategies for OCD. Again, that's ocdfamilypodcast.com courses and use my special link to sign up today. Hi there fam. If you are listening from my corner of this global neighborhood, I hope your Thanksgiving yesterday included moments of grounding, connection or maybe even a breath of relief. Is it wrong to be like, oh gosh, if you got that, tell us all how? Because the holidays can stir up a lot, especially for those of us impacted by OCD and ocrds, be it perfectionism, social pressure, family dynamics, or even the grief of unmet expectations. So wherever you find yourself this weekend, I just want to say I'm glad you're here. I'm Nicole Morris, licensed marriage and family therapist and mental health correspondent and let me be the first to say welcome to the family. The OCD family that is. I am here to create a community of support for family members, spouses, partners, parents, adult children as there may be adult words and chosen family of OCD sufferers and their community. I've had over 22 years of experience in the mental health field, but please note that this information does not qualify or substitute as a diagnostic evaluation, therapy or treatment and it is presented on an as is basis. Please follow up with a qualified mental health provider in your area regarding concerns for yourself or loved ones. Thank you for joining us today. Now let's get started. Alrighty. Today we're continuing our OCRD series that stands for Obsessive Compulsive Related Disorders and we are diving into Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder or ocpd. Now, OCPD is distinct from ocd, but the two can often get confused and sometimes even co occur. So to help us understand it all, I'm rejoined by my colleague and friend. At this point, Anthony, I feel like friend is appropriate who just happens to be one of the leading experts in the field of OCPD, Dr. Anthony Pinto. Dr. Pinto is a Clinical psychologist and Director of the Northwell Health OCD center at Sucker Hillside Hospital. He also serves as Associate professor of Psychiatry at the Donald and Barbara Zucker School of Medicine at Hofstra North Northwell and is the co author of the APA published book Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. We are also joined by two of his very special guests who have generously shared their lived experience and insight into navigating OCPD in their marriage and in family life. This conversation is layered, honest, and incredibly valuable, whether you're a clinician, a loved one, or walking this road yourself. So without further ado, let's dive right in because there's so much great and important content to cover, and I can't wait for you to hear more. Well, welcome back to the OCD Family Podcast, and today we have a special treat. We are in our ocrd series, that's OC related disorders, and we have the one and only Dr. Anthony Pinto back with us talking all things OCPD. But, Anthony, today you brought some guests with you. Would you like to introduce them?
- [03:48]
B
Sure, yeah. I mean, thank you again, Nicole, for inviting me back for the OCD and related sort of series. This is the fourth time that we're going to be talking about ocpd, so I'd invite any new listeners to go back and listen to the prior ones. But I love the opportunity to talk about this because as you know, even though this is such a prevalent condition that it is under recognized both by the public and clinicians, so it's really important that we keep these conversations going. And one way to do that is not only through professional education, but also by hearing from people whose lives are impacted by ocpd. So today, I'm really thrilled to have Adam join us. Adam is being treated at the Northwell OCD center, and he brought with him his spouse, Rebecca. And so we'll be hearing more from them about how OCPD shows up in their lives. And in addition to hearing the lived experience of Adam, it's great today that we're going to have a voice that's not often heard, which is that of the partner, to give a sense of how this impairs the family. So Adam's going to share his journey as well as we're going to get into some of the ways that cognitive behavioral therapy have been helpful to him, and we'll hear about how he's doing today. But I'm really so pleased that they're here, and I want to thank them for their bravery because not many of us would be willing to open up the intimate details of our romantic relationship. So I really appreciate that they're doing this as a service, you know, to the public and for the education. Yeah.
- [05:28]
A
So welcome, guys. Let's get an icebreaker. Question. Are you guys coffee or tea drinkers? And if so, how do you like to take it?
- [05:36]
C
We like both, both coffee and tea. We typically do coffee first thing in the morning and then tea throughout the day.
- [05:43]
D
And I definitely do decaf, all things decaf, because the driven personality, I don't need any more caffeine in my life. I already have guiding me with my personality.
- [05:53]
A
So you're like, I don't need to amp up, I need to tamp down. I, you know, back in the day I could do a lot of caffeine, but now it's like by 10am I need to switch to decaf. So I totally get it. Well, welcome and I just would love to echo Anthony's sentiment there that this is going to help so many people. And your bravery and courage in speaking out, your vulnerability is a gift. And I just thank you for taking the time. And so where we're going to start today, Anthony and you mentioned we this is our fourth episode. I'm going to link the prior episodes over on this Episode's blog@ocdfamilypodcast.com But if you would just give us a general reminder and overview of what is OCPD for maybe new people tuning in that haven't had a chance to pause and go check out those episodes.
- [06:45]
B
Sure. Yeah. Happy to start there. So Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder is a condition which is different from obsessive compulsive disorder, which I know most of these episodes are about. So what is ocpd? And like I said, it is not well understood. Unfortunately, we don't have a robust research literature in this area. So always looking for more people to join and to partner in developing treatments here. So it is a common condition. The latest data suggests that the prevalence globally of OCPD is 6.5%, which is much higher than OCD actually. And that affects about 1 in 15 adults. So what is OCPD? It's a pattern of personality traits and behaviors that focuses on high standards, perfectionism, a need for order, a need for control over oneself, one's environment, which includes the people in their lives. And it leads to significant distress and functional impairment. So these are traits that are going to be present over a period of years. You'll see them across different domains of the person's life. And like I said, it will cause distress. And so one thing I wanted to just point out is just from, you know, from when we first started this, something that has become more and more clear is that the traits and behaviors in OCPD seem to be particularly activated when the person is faced with uncertainty. So uncertainty, you know, this concept of, like, not knowing what's going to happen is a big trigger point because the person develops beliefs over time that uncertainty will lead to bad outcomes. And so when they are unsure, they will then feel a sense of threat that makes them anxious or distressed. And then what they do when they're activated is, is they end up relying repeatedly over time on certain control behaviors in order to manage that uncomfortable feeling. And the control behaviors are gonna be things like ruminating and overly researching, overworking, controlling spending, which we can call miserliness and excessive thoroughness in their work. And there's a whole list of them. It can include, like, excessive, you know, research when it comes to decision making. All of these things are the order and the cleanliness. They are all meant to try to remove that uncomfortable, anxious feeling around uncertainty. And they often will operate in those situations with a lot of urgency and intensity because they so badly want to get rid of that bad feeling. So that's a cycle that we've certainly seen over and over again with ocpd. And OCPD impacts functioning in a variety of ways. It could be in the work domain where they are missing deadlines because they have a very thorough, excessive way of doing their work, very meticulous. They can be slow in how they do it. They may have difficulty working in groups when it comes to projects socially. They might turn down invitations because they feel like they don't have time because of their responsibilities at work or because of, you know, their obligations at home. Even when they do socialize, they may not be fully present because they feel like they should be doing other things. And then from the leisure perspective or hobbies, that ends up being an area that's underdeveloped often in OCPD because they don't value that downtime or they don't feel like they. They have the time. And even when they do leisure, it ends up becoming work, like, you know, where they have a certain way that they have to do their leisure. And so then it becomes the activity is no longer fun and playful or restorative. So that's kind of a, you know, a bird's eye view of OCPD and how it looks. But we'll hear more from Adam and Rebecca in terms of, like, some specifics that they encountered in their lives.
- [10:50]
A
Anthony, can I have you also explain? Part of the wrestle here is OCPD is something that is what we classify as egosyntonic. And so there are Some value driven 7 reasons why people are engaged in this meaningful activity. But it can get to a place where it adds distress because there's not enough time in the day. And there are lots of things that matter in our priority. And so could you help maybe people that are newer to understanding that concept, what that means?
- [11:22]
B
Sure, yeah. This is a good opportunity just to help differentiate for new listeners the difference between OCD and ocpd. So ocd, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is the presence of a preoccupation with intrusive, unwanted thoughts that often have to do with safety, certainty, am I a bad person? Those thoughts are going to be fear based. And the way the person tries to manage that anxiety is by doing compulsive ritualized behaviors. Could be washing, checking, it could be symmetry, order. But the difference here that you're getting at, Nicole, is the individual doesn't want to be doing those behaviors. They are doing them because they feel they must in order to manage their fear. Ocpd, being a personality condition, is what we call ego syntonic because it is consistent with how they see the world and they believe their behaviors are necessary in order to move towards their objectives and their goals. And the problem though is that the way in which they approach tasks is so time consuming, so thorough that it leaves them little time for other parts of their lives and they burn out. And so that's why with OCPD we tend to see tendency towards irritability or low mood because they are just spent from living life this way. And they, you know, like I said, other areas of their life suffer because they end up putting so much effort into typically work domains. And so they, you know, they, they, it leaves them with little time for other things and they just have a backlog because they end up running out of time because of their meticulous, thorough ways. And so they constantly feel burdened that I'm behind, I'm never going to catch up.
- [13:12]
A
Yeah, that's such a great distinction. And so with that really helpful overview, we're going to turn to Adam and I would love Adam, to the degree that you feel comfortable, if you could tell us just how OCPD has showed up for you in life.
- [13:28]
D
Yes. I want to thank you both for the opportunity to share. And as you spoke earlier, just our hope is that we'll be able to help other people by sharing our story. So that really makes it easier for us to be vulnerable, knowing that our vulnerability could impact others in a way that would improve their relationships and just lead to health personally and Interpersonally, so it makes it easier to share knowing that for me, I guess the journey began a long time ago. I mean, I've always known myself, even as a young person, too, whether or not I was admiring some bit of perfection or seeking it for myself, that just high standard and attention to detail has always been a part of my life. That on switch for just seeing things, appreciating things, but then wanting to pursue things with a drive that in many ways, through education, through career, was pushing me towards what I was aiming for, meeting my goals, my objectives. And it was kind of a positive feedback. The harder I worked, the better things went in a lot of ways. And so I did see some positive things, but then I realized that it was a hamster wheel that just never ended. It just. There was always something more. There's always something more to do, and it just became a burden. And then as I got older and finished college, went on through grad school, got married, I realized that that's not how everybody functioned and that it impacted my relationship with my wife, just. Particularly when it came to just, you know, living in a home together and sharing responsibilities and wanting a sense of control and thinking that that's how everybody viewed the world. And it just led to conflict and just feeling, you know, burnout, overextended. And obviously, in a marriage relationship, it requires you to delegate and share responsibilities and share perspectives. And so my drive became a source of conflict. And then adding that to that, having children added an even more intense dynamic. And I think intensity was the big issue at a lot of times. Like, it wasn't that I might see something differently, but I was very intense about how I would see it differently and communicate it or how I thought something should go. Had a lot of systems in place that I thought the way needed to be done. And after a while, it became not just burdensome to me, but I became overwhelming, I think, to my wife with my expectations and not just what they were, but also how they were communicated. You know, often harshly, in a way that was just kind of. It would be hurtful and damaging to the relationship.
- [15:54]
A
So, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And can I ask how old the kiddos are?
- [15:59]
D
My oldest is 18. She's in college. And my middle daughter is in 10th grade. And then I have a seventh grader, also. Three daughters.
- [16:06]
A
Yeah. So anything that we bring in to relationship into parenting is, you know, gonna be felt by the relationships and so by your wife, Rebecca, and by the kids, I'm sure, especially at this age, they're like, dad, let me tell you what I'm sure. Right, Right. But, yeah, absolutely, that can show up. And so we love Rebecca. If we can hear from you first of all and get a guess, Tell me if I'm wrong. But sometimes those attractive qualities when you're dating and you're meeting, you're like, oh, my gosh, his attention to detail and all these things, then in marriage can start to become the stressors. And so we'd love to hear your experience with the positives and just, you know, full circle, what it's been like for you, experiencing this as a spouse.
- [16:53]
C
Yeah, and you're absolutely right. When we were dating, I was very attracted to Adam's drive and his hard work ethic, his attention to detail, which is not super common in men. He doesn't miss a thing. So that was definitely attractive. And then when we ended up getting married, I quickly discovered, probably within the first week, that he was very particular about lots of things. My personality is actually super laid back. And so at first, it didn't really bother me. I was like, oh, I'll do it his way. Like, that's fine. And then after a while, it kind of got just to be too much, and I started to get frustrated over it, and I was like, listen, like, you can't tell me how to do everything. That's not gonna work. So. And it was little things like how to hang my towel after I showered, how to load the dishwasher, how to do laundry. Just the little things, you know, of living.
- [17:47]
A
Yeah, those are some great examples. And you start to go like, okay, we're in this together, so this isn't gonna work for me. Long run. Whereas when you're dating, you're like, exactly.
- [18:00]
C
And. And I'll say, even now, there are major positives to Adam's personality that I really appreciate. We don't run out of anything. He has a running list of what we're getting low on, and we literally have never run out of toilet paper or soap or really anything. And that's because of. Of Adam, his attention to detail and his lists. He's also the most helpful husband, I think, in the world. He helps around the house. He does not make messes or he cleans up after himself. So he's just really super helpful with household chores.
- [18:37]
A
Yeah, I love that. It sounds like he is a wonderful provider and provides a lot of security. But the price of securing the castle for you, Adam, it sounds like, has absolutely taken a toll on you. And that is part of the problem that we've talked about before, Anthony, is it's not a problem to have values, to want to be a protector, to want to be able to take care of things, to have a particular way that feels correct to do things. But when we see ocpd, the amount of, and we've talked about this before, just kind of the intensity with a dimmer switch analogy, like everything is up at high stakes and there's only a, you know, certain amount of time in the day. It gets really challenging. So I would love if you could talk about how you see OCPD impacting relationships and anything more you would want to add to that.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah, and I, I, I love that Rebecca is sharing some of the positives of Adam's personality. And, and like you said, Nicole, like, you know, just to reiterate a point from the past, is that in cognitive behavioral therapy we are really looking to honor the person's strengths, their personality strengths, the great things about Adam, the, you know, his thoughtfulness, his willing to help. But we're also trying to target maladaptive strategies that he has. You know, where individuals with ocpd, like you said, have trouble modulating that dimmer switch. And so they tend to rely more on like a light switch which is on and off, meaning like they're all in, they maximize their attention on a particular task or maybe not at all. And so we're helping them to be able to dial up for important tasks and dial down deliberately even though it's uncomfortable for things that don't really matter like how the dishwasher is loaded or how your partner uses a towel after a shower. Yeah. So how OCPD gets in the way of relationships, you know, will vary depending on the presentation of the person. And as I mentioned, you know, OCPD can show up in a variety of ways. And it's helpful to think about OCPD as having different style types. You know, there are some people with OCPD have more of an anxious style, which means that they, they tend to be more self critical, they tend to have more trouble with managing their time, you know, detail orientedness, you know, where it creates problems in terms of slowness. Those individuals are going to have a lot of rules that they apply to themselves. And so in a relationship, if you're living with somebody who has that anxious style, it's going to be very frustrating because everything is going to either be put off, the person's going to procrastinate, it's going to be hard to like take action on things. So maybe they're constantly talking about the trip they want to plan, but they don't actually get to it because they have to research all these locations that they want to go to. So that can create a lot of frustration in the family because there's a stuckness. You know, we're not moving forward. You know, we've been talking about buying a new car or buying a couch, you know, or the person is stuck on, like, whether they should change career or job. Right. And so there's like, this backlog I was talking about that's more typical in that anxious style. There's a lot of avoidance amongst those individuals. You know, some people have a more controlling style, and for them, their presentation is going to be more rigid, more tending to be focused on rules that they apply to other people or rules about how the household should run. And so they're going to have a, you know, a lot of focus on order, a lot of expectations of people around them, which can lead to judgment and a sense of frustration because they feel other people are letting them down. These people with this control style tend to get exasperated because, like, how could you do it that way? It doesn't make any sense. And. And so those are some of the ways that it shows up. But, you know, another thing I wanted to just point out is that we typically see OCPD traits begin in childhood, and the. In a typical, like, development, you know, we, you know, those traits end up becoming relied upon more and more as the person gets older. And usually you see the onset of the disorder in, like, late adolescence, early adulthood, which tends to be around college age, because that's when they're starting to live with other people and they're exposing their rules and systems to other people, which creates a lot of challenge. So when we talk about relationships, you know, which typically start around that late adolescence, early adulthood, you're going to end up trying to merge your world with somebody else, and that's where you're going to see those clashes. And then it only gets exacerbated as you add more stress and responsibility. Owning a home, having children, pets, et cetera. So that's just sort of the typical trajectory.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah, it's a great point. And, you know, you can have one or the other, and you can have both and.
- [23:47]
B
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are not mutually exclusive. They tend to have, like, a more predominant style. But you can vary depending on the situation.
- [23:55]
A
Sure. And I'll just note, because we get this question. I'm sure you get this question all the time when you're presenting Anthony, but I know we get this question too. Sometimes when you're describing the trajectory and the developmental kind of different stages where we can see some early signs of it, folks will often have a question of how you differentiate that from autistic people from, you know, different neurodivergent processing. And so we definitely covered that in other episodes. Again, those episodes are going to be linked over on the blog. But is there anything that you would want to say to just distinguish a personality disorder from a neurotype processing?
- [24:34]
B
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that you certainly want to take a look at developmentally, how this showed up in early stages, look at developmental milestones. But I think the difference here is going to be in some of the function of the behaviors. The involvement of like sensory overload going to be more typical in people with autism or other neurodivergence. And so whether they are using rigid patterns in order to regulate like the sensory overload would be associated more with autism if there is any reliance on repetitive behaviors for soothing purposes. And then the other, it would be more typical in autism as well as in the actual interpersonal functioning. You know, individuals with OCPD tend to have probably like a more diffuse relationship difficulties and. And people with autism. So, you know, and of course life is complex. So you can have people who have autism and ocpd.
- [25:34]
A
It can be both.
- [25:35]
B
But in general, like, those are some of the things I look for in helping to differentiate.
- [25:40]
A
Well, and something I like to say is no matter what we're calling a symptom presentation or a neurotype processing, if you're like, I can identify with different patterns that we're discussing and there are tools that are helpful in giving meaningful value driven re engagement with your values and having more time. And you know, just if you're like, gosh, that could benefit me, then no matter what we call it, it's worth having a listen and seeing if this could be helpful for you. And so as we dive into this a little bit more, Adam, I would love to hear more about how, whether it's a need for order or just that control, how did that show up for you in marriage?
- [26:24]
D
I would say all these things that Dr. Pinto described really in the control way, is what applies more to me and that as far as how it affected my relationship with Rebecca. These things, my responses to whether my desire to have them my way or be done a certain way, my response to not being done that way or noticing things out of order or detail, they're always like, my response is out of proportion to the quote Unquote, offense. And not only my external response to her, which is very important because that affects our relationship, but I've become aware that my internal response is something that is alarming, too. That uncomfortable feeling that Dr. Pinto describes related to things that to most people, just are inconsequential or kind of optional in life. I feel like there's a sense of. I do feel that anxiety, the tension, and then it manifests itself in my expression or my disappointment, and then it becomes a conversation, and then the conversation ends up in a lot of explaining and rationalizing or maybe judging at times, or frustration. You know, maybe I've expressed this concern before, and then it's not being incorporated into the way we're doing things. And then I'm disappointed that you don't care about this like I do. And then I might say words that undermine her desire to want to do something a certain way, but she's not meeting up to the standard. And then I say things that are hurtful and damaging to the relationship. So. And then when I step back from it and realize, like, wow, you know, my relationship is so much more valuable than this, the way clothes are put away or the way suitcases are packed, or the way time is managed or resources are managed, I'm making that thing seem like that's paramount. But really, in my heart of hearts, my relationship with her is more important than all those things. But I'm living in a way that shows that that's not true. So it becomes this sort of retrospective, like, wow, you know, like, I'm living and working very hard to pursue something, but in the same time, I'm sabotaging what I value most in life.
- [28:28]
A
I really appreciate the way you framed that. And the word that you used that really popped out to me was importance. Because your relationship with your wife is important. And ultimately, a lot of these different things that you described, the tasks, how things were put away, and for her to see your point, those were important, too. And it's not that it's wrong to value and see those things as important, but it's also leaving room to go. Even if I have anxiety, I can metabolize that discomfort in service of the importance also of this relationship. And so I always like to emphasize that, because it's not wrong that you like things put away a certain way. It's also not wrong. Rebecca likes to load the dishwasher a different way. It can be challenging. It can present a rub. But the importance, the things we value, that autonomy, that ability to see things through, is still meaningful, and it matters. So OCPD isn't about if you want things done a certain way. You have to stop wanting that. No, you can want that still, but you decide how much effort you're gonna put towards that and how you're going to also be able to prioritize things like your marriage and your relationship. So I appreciate you sharing that, Adam and Rebecca. I would just love to hear from you on the flip side, as the spouse, I would love if you could describe what that experience was like for you.
- [29:58]
C
Yeah, I would say a lot of times when he would come home from work, before he got home, I would try to make sure everything was in order. Like, really work hard to make sure that things were in its place. And as soon as he'd walk in, he'd immediately find whatever was not perfect in his eyes. So I often felt like I couldn't ever measure up, even if I was trying my hardest. And then just there was a, like, Adam mentioned before, like, an intensity that was in that home a lot when he was around. And so then, you know, we start to dread when Adam comes home from work, and that's not a feeling we want to have. We want to be excited to see him. So that was really hard. I do have to say, things have improved in that area, so I'm not feeling like I'm always walking on eggshells. The intensity shows up sometimes, but it's not as constant as it was before. Adam does have the tendency to be very critical, but actually he's also very encouraging and affirming. So he's got both sides almost as much as he's critical. He's actually very affirming to everyone in our family. He's really good at that as well, which is helpful. So I didn't always feel like a failure. He would, you know, thank me for things. It is very meaningful to him when I do, like, go out of my way to do household chores, even though it's my favorite thing to do. He does show his appreciation a lot from that.
- [31:27]
A
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because when we think about this dimmer switch analogy and stuff, sometimes in looking at the partner with OCPD learning how to manage that dimmer switch, it's like, well, when does Rebecca get to shine? Right? When does she get to dim up and show things and both people can shine, and it's learning, really how we can integrate those things, which isn't that just marriage and relationship period of learning how to integrate and allowing both strengths to shine and maybe taking turns or compromising at times. But that's a. It's a big challenge, and it shows up in real ways whether OCPD is in the picture or not. And so I appreciate both of you sharing. All right, fam, if you're getting value out of our conversation, but you haven't hit subscribe or followed OCD Family Podcast. Wherever you enjoy your podcasts and YouTube, please take a moment, no time like the present to hit that button. It's free, it's easy, and it ensures that not only will you never miss an episode, but that more folks can find the OCD Family community. Because, fam, we know we're better together. Now, back to today's chat.
- [32:40]
B
It's great that we have Rebecca here because we don't often hear the voice of the partner. Rebecca, can you just share a little bit about, like, what that experience is like for you of feeling monitored or micromanaged?
- [32:52]
C
Hmm. Well, actually, my personality type. I don't know if you're into enneagrams, but I'm an enneagram. Seven.
- [33:01]
A
Which way do you wing?
- [33:03]
C
Probably an eight.
- [33:04]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [33:06]
C
I really hate to be controlled and that I actually want to run from it. So if I'm feeling like I'm being controlled, I want to go the other way. There was a period in our marriage where Adam, I felt like he was controlling me more with how I spent money, like, how efficient I was with running errands, like, not wasting gas, just how I spent my time, you know, that I wasn't being efficient. Rules. Yeah, Scheduling. So that was. It made me want to hide things from him, which is not healthy in a relationship. But when I felt like I was being micromanaged, I kind of wanted to do the opposite, which. Which seems like a rebellious kid, but that's how it made me feel. Instead of being open about what I was doing, where I was going, how I was spending money, and I'm not. Like, I didn't have an issue with overspending. He just micromanaged every single penny I was spending. That was several years ago. Things aren't like that at all anymore.
- [34:05]
B
Wasn't related to, like, financial.
- [34:08]
C
Exactly. It had nothing to do with, you know, being able to afford it or not. We had the money to be able to. To spend on gas or a new sweater. He just. It, you know, I didn't need it if it wasn't necessary. He didn't want me spending the money on it.
- [34:24]
A
And there's different definitions of necessary, I'm sure, in terms of it, you Were like, you know, what's necessary is for me to feel like I have autonomy. It's really about that. Right, Exactly.
- [34:35]
C
Yes.
- [34:36]
B
I've spoken to a lot of couples with a similar story, and the other thing that comes up is it. It affects the dynamic in the relationship. When the person with the OCPD is so distressed about rules and systems because that person becomes like a sheriff or like the, you know, like the supervisor or sometimes, well meaning, like a teacher, like, this is the best way to do this thing or that thing. And, you know, while again, they're, well meaning, it does set off the dynamic of equals, and it creates, like, this, you know, hierarchy or power dynamic, which can impact the connection and closeness. So, yeah, those are, you know, I think, some pieces there. And then, Rebecca, the other thing you were mentioning with regard to, besides, like, trying to get ready for him coming home, and it's like, you also with the spending, I think you mentioned that you would, like, try not to bring up a purchase or maybe.
- [35:34]
C
Oh, right. Oh, yeah. I would definitely try to hide it. Yeah. Adam, you can't get anything past him. He notices everything. So a lot of women will be like, oh, I bought a new shirt. My husband never noticed. I can buy the shirt, and he just notices it in my closet. Doesn't even matter if I've worn it, if it, you know, if it's something new, it. He can tell.
- [35:56]
D
Yeah.
- [35:56]
A
Yeah. Well. And I would imagine that in the moments where this gets addressed, whether he's bringing it up or you're, like, feeling exposed in that. That there must have been a lot of frustration for both of you. Really. Yeah, but frustration. And I'm seeing here in the notes that sometimes it would even get to the point of, like, if you don't like it, maybe you shouldn't have got married or had kids.
- [36:20]
C
Right. He was so particular, and I felt like he was really miserable. Like, he just was never content. And I was really concerned because he just did not seem happy. And so at one point, I did say to him, like, maybe it would have been better for you not to have gotten married or have kids, because then you'd have control of everything in your space. Nothing would be out of place, you know, And. And the kids, they add a whole different element to not being able to control everything.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah.
- [36:52]
C
And so I. I feel like it was heightened also once the kids came.
- [36:58]
A
Absolutely. And you know, what's interesting is you're noting that he didn't seem happy, but I wonder if you too, were like, I am not happy.
- [37:08]
C
Definitely. We definitely had feelings like that.
- [37:10]
A
Absolutely. It's a great segue into the life of a parent, what it's like having kids and how this impacted parenting and the relationship with the kiddos. So we talked briefly. You have three kids, I think you said, right?
- [37:26]
C
Yes, three girls.
- [37:27]
A
Oh, three girls. I tell you, girls. Girls are trouble. I think we all have girls, but, you know, I have boys too. But yes, they're wonderful and they're opinionated and they're their own people, as they all are. So let's talk about parenting and relationships with kids. And we'll start with you, Anthony, if you would like to kind of talk about what are some of the themes that we can see show up when it comes to this dynamic.
- [37:51]
B
Yeah. So OCPD is certainly going to flare up during certain life events. And we talked about, like when you first live with someone, you know, maybe, you know, move into a home. But also then the arrival of kids brings a lot of joy, but of course, stress, because systems then become upended. I remember bringing home each of the kids and, you know, there's a lot of coordination that is involved because they have so many needs, especially in those early years. But then, you know, the needs change as they get older. So whenever systems get uprooted and need to be then revised, that's going to create a lot of stress and anxiety for individuals that have these traits, you know, that rely on rigidity and in rules. And so these individuals also tend to want to be well informed parents. And so they might end up relying on research about how to parent and want to try to follow by the book, like what are the recommendations by experts? And so that can also create conflict because then they'll be judgmental about how the partner is doing it if they're not following those same expert guidance. So that the maximizing that we talked about can also come up here in that they feel that they want to do the best and they want to try to, you know, further control the situation at home. And sometimes this overdoing aspect of parenting can, especially as the kids get older, can lead to conflict because there can be difficulties with setting boundaries, especially with older children, giving them some rope in order to take some chances or to explore to make mistakes. You know, for somebody with ocpd, a fear of failure and making mistakes is going to be very threatening to them. And particularly it will be hard for them to see their kid fail or to, you know, to. To mess up in some way. And so there can be a rush to try to fix problems which then in some cases, depending on the personality of the child, could lead to a more dependent child or in a child that's more independently driven. Lots of conflict. And so those are some. Some ways that this can play out. But, yeah, definitely the introduction of kids is going to be a very stressful point in the life of somebody with ocp.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah, it's a big life transition and change, even positive change, ultimately is change. And change is hard. And so I would love to hear from you, Adam. What was it like having the children come into life and create that change? What was that experience like?
- [40:44]
D
Sure, a few things on that. One is to step back a little bit and just share my profession, the part that I gravitated towards. I can share this, I think, comfortably. Saying that I give anesthesia for a living, and that relies on a lot of attention to detail. And I walk into an operating room and I'm on to, like, see anything that could possibly go wrong. And there's a lot of algorithms and pathways and everything's, you know, protocols and all this stuff. And I don't even have to think about it. That's just how my mind functions. And then I leave that environment where I actually feel very comfortable because I have a sense of control. And that's actually what a marriage counselor said to me early on when we were seeking help was I said, why am I so comfortable in a stressful environment at work? And then I get home and I feel tension and, like, internal response of, like, where most people would be in that environment that I'm in at work, and they'd be like, wow, this is crazy. And then I come home and these people that I'm supposed to be enjoying, that's where I feel the tension and stress. And so I think for me, that alarms going off there was like, I don't know how to control this. And the counselor actually said, you haven't quite figured out that you can't control those people on your own. Like, that's not what you're necessarily even called to do. So I think very early on it, I realized when we were having children you described, Dr. Pendenno described the researching and the doing things a certain way. And, you know, I think even when our first daughter was born, I had, like, a method for cleaning onesies. And predictability was good. I had a system how I was going to clean the onesies when she, you know, had an accident or whatever. We had child number two, and I had everything ready in that system to get ready to clean the onesies. Child two didn't have the same issue the child one had, right. But she had a difference at her. And now, even as she's gotten older, she's that child who wants the freedom. And it took me a while. We really battled for a while, even as a young child. And now I've realized for me to coexist in a relationship with her, I really have to acknowledge that desire for her to be free and to do things a certain way and be sensitive to that. Otherwise I'm not going to have a relationship with her. So I think too, like, having my own health be like, I can't give something to someone else if I'm not internally okay. Like, I have a lot of tension and stuff. And exercise has been helpful for me to get some of that out. I have a quiet time where I can reflect on things. But I just. I think the biggest thing is that having children exposed that those qualities in me, or not qualities, but characteristics, because they're not qualities, but that that desire even more to control. As Rebecca mentioned, she commented, maybe you shouldn't have had kids or got married. That was actually really sad for me to hear that because I realized, wow, if that's really true about me, I really want to do something about that. I realize as I get older, it gets harder to change. So I'm getting closer to 50 now, and it's like, if I don't do something about this, this is really going to be what people remember me by. Like, oh, he was great at work, and then he came home and things were not healthy. So I love my kids for many reasons, but they really were a big reason why I wanted to seek help.
- [43:48]
A
Well, and, you know, I really appreciate that. Sharing Adam and your vulnerability and your courage to speak out, it's going to help a lot of people. And the thing is, sometimes that tension just sets off the alarm that there's a problem to solve. Instead of, as Anthony was talking about before, the uncertainty or the ambivalence that comes up in relationships, sometimes it's not a problem to solve. Sometimes it's just the tension to feel. And it's hard to not do something with that. It feels like, well, I should do something when I'm at work. There is a response, There is a right answer. And so being in that space is really tricky. And, you know, giving ourselves grace, too, to understand, like, you know what? I was trying to do my best, and I've been applauded for this in so many different ways through school, through whatever, even through dating. Rebecca loved this about me, right and so you were trying your best, but that doesn't mean it had to stay where it was. It didn't mean there wasn't hope for it to continue to get better. And so we're going to dive into that in a second. But first, I want to hear, too, from Rebecca, what was it like for you in the parenting arena? Because, yes, I mean, parenting is humbling, y', all, no matter what it's like, you know, but just with the particularity or that control profile of seeing that tension build, knowing what you're feeling, seeing. Seeing how the kids are reacting to it. What was that like for you?
- [45:18]
C
Yeah, Yeah. I would say we had, for a while, different parenting styles, and so that brought a lot of tension into our relationship. He definitely wanted to control. And I erred more on the side of we have to allow the kids to make some mistakes and to be there to support them, you know, when they've fallen. And that was hard for Adam. And a lot of times when the kids were younger, if they would make a mistake, he would blame me for it. Almost like my lack of stepping in or parenting the right way. It was my fault that they were making this mistake. But more recently, we actually found a book that was helpful, and it helps us to stay on the same page reading this book. And the book that we're reading is called Parenting with Love and Logic For Teens. For teens. So that's been just super helpful for us and has helped us get on the same page. So I think because it is a book written by a professional, it's easy for Adam to get on board.
- [46:21]
A
Yeah.
- [46:22]
D
Well, I think another thing, too, we're reading it with another couple, which kind of opens up. All right. It's not just your pack is saying this, and it's actually a couple that I respect a lot, and just they can say things in a way that, like, I know they care about me. And I think to have relationships with other couples that are going to breathe truth and logic and love into your life and reflect things back to you that, you know, they're saying, and not just because they want to be right, but they want you to have healthy relationships. Like, I've seen it in their eyes. Like, they're like, we really want you to be close. They know our children, too, and they. They want me to have that kind of connection with them.
- [46:56]
A
So, yeah, Yeah.
- [46:58]
C
I would say the other thing, too, with parenting. And I've seen a huge improvement with Adam's relationship with our girls since we've been reading that book. And Adam's also, like, realizing when he's feeling triggered by a certain situation, like, he might get really worried about one of the girls and how they're doing in school. And to hear them talk about maybe struggling in school will be a trigger for him. So he'll say, hey, like, Rebecca, can you talk to the girls about this? Can you let them vent you about this? I think I need to step aside because it really affects me and kind of amps him up. And so he'll just, you know, text the girls and just say, hey, like, how can I pray for you today? You know, to keep that relationship close and to let them know that he cares. But he allows me to kind of listen to their venting when they're, you know, worried about something.
- [47:48]
A
Well, and I have to acknowledge that takes incredible strength to be able to realize that you're gonna get amped up and to, in terms of almost like that behavioral experiment, go, okay, I'm going to tap out. And Rebecca can shine in this moment, and then you still can engage, but you find a different way. You find a different avenue to show up and still say, I'm here. Because ultimately, the drive of diving in there and talking with the girls about solving this issue is out of love. And so you're still allowing an avenue for love. It looks different, it might be more uncomfortable, but you're also recognizing, oh, this is gonna be a trigger for me. And so I'm gonna tap out. I'm gonna get my pinch hitter to respond in my place, and I'll just say, I'm here. I love you. I'll pray for you, whatever. The thing is. So I really love that. And I'm gonna link that book over on this episode's blog, if anybody's going, ooh, yeah, I wanna check out that book. It almost reminds me, Anthony, of kind of DBT dialectical behavioral therapy strategies like Wise mind. I'm taking that.
- [48:56]
B
Yes.
- [48:57]
A
That thoughtfulness and the feelings brain and the thinking brain. And I'm trying to make a decision accordingly.
- [49:02]
B
Yeah, I was thinking the same. And I think we're just seeing here in the balance, in teamwork between Adam and Rebecca, because you do need both pieces. You need the love, but you also need the logic. Right? And, you know, I think the beauty in this family is that they can do both. And Adam is learning when to tap out and to let Rebecca step in and vice versa. So I think that that's really great to see. You know, I think the other piece here, with kids stumbling and encountering problems, is to be able to go in with the validation first. Right. And that when somebody is a problem solver and good at it, like Adam, you know, they might make that assumption that the child wants to fix. And so being able to slow down to start with the validation, because validation simply the first step is restate what you heard. Right. Like, let the person who is telling you their problem know that what you said matters to me. I have heard it and I'm going to repeat it back to you. So, you know, I heard it like that. That's number one. And so often we'll try to help parents with OCP to really slow down, you know, do that restating. And that can be helpful even in a couple dynamic when you're triggered and in your control behaviors, being able to slow down and just to restate. And then validation has other steps to it, which involve trying to infer what emotion the person is experiencing. But yeah, being able to like, not quickly go to the problem solving, because from a education and learning standpoint, you want the child to be able to express and then to, you know, if they want help with the problem, that that's something that they'll invite you to rather than just, you know, going in and trying to take away the pain.
- [50:44]
C
Yeah.
- [50:44]
A
And I'm sure that validation for everybody, validation is important. And I'm sure for times where Rebecca's trying to speak into Adam, even leading with, I know you're trying to help. I know this is driven from a place of you caring about us all so much also. Knock it off. You're driving me crazy. You know, whatever. The thing is, because sometimes we just keep it the real real between the spouses. We're like, okay, stop it. Right. But even leading with, I know that you're coming from a place that you're trying to make this better. It's not better. So I also need space to be able to contribute and lead and co lead or be a part of this. So I think those are really great points and it's kind of a nice segue, Anthony, into us talking about some more of those tools. Validation being one of many. And so we're going to talk about CBT interventions that are used commonly for OCPD that Adam's been using and would love to hear more about that.
- [51:45]
B
Yeah. So we were talking before about different aspects of life that lead to stress. And when somebody has ocpd, their toolbox is going to be typically limited to the control behaviors that we've been referring to. And so if they're stressed because of something that they observed, their partner did, or something related to the kids, they are often going to double down on their usual ways of trying to manage their emotions, which is rumination, research, overworking, correcting behaviors, you know, the excessive thoroughness. And that is going to be what they know. So I think just from a self compassion point of view, somebody with OCPD is often trying to do the best they can with the limited tools they have. And so what we're going to talk about now, which I'm excited about, is, you know, what are some other ways of expanding your toolbox to more adaptive tools that can help you to regulate when you're activated or triggered, you know, help you to manage your anxiety that won't adversely impact you or your relationships or, you know, your partner, your kids. And so that's where we're gonna go now. And I think some of this we touched on, but like the first thing that Adam mentioned is awareness of your own tank, you know, of mental emotional resources, you know, and how can you continuously be replenishing that tank? Because stress drives the tank down. And if you're not sleeping, if you're not getting regular meals, if you're not engaging in any kind of social contact or leisure downtime, your tank is going to be depleted. You're not going to be the best version of yourself. You're not going to be able to skillfully handle stress that comes up in your life. And so having an awareness of that, taking your temperature, where am I right now? Is going to be important. And that's, you know, when your tank is depleted, that's when you may need to tap out to your partner. And so how do you start to take steps to replenishing that tank? Which is going to mean having to put some parameters on other demands, like decreasing your work time so you have more time to do some self care. But it's the basics that we have talked about, getting regular sleep and meals, exercise that Adam mentioned, you know, having some downtime, spending pleasurable time with your partner, with family and other loved ones. So that's gonna be really important as step one. Adam, do you want to comment on some of the things that you've been doing?
- [54:21]
D
Sure. I think one thing I would say at the outset is in my past I might sense that I need to do something different. And it led to looking at Rebecca and seeing this person who's actually by most standards really healthy, like relationally in her life, like has balance all these things and sort of resenting that. And that was also like, aside from blaming her for things at times that that's obviously unproductive. Like, I realized at a point, like, I have to do something to take care of myself. And it wasn't like this all came upon me at once. I wanted to speak to the sort of the journey getting here. We were trying to get to a better place. Like, we had been in marriage counseling as long ago as 15 years ago and been to individual counselors, life coach. And so it wasn't for a lack of effort. Like, we really wanted to do better. I wanted to be better in relating. I wanted to be healthier as a person. And then in that journey of seeking help. Our kids were in counseling for anxiety and various things to help get them work through some issues which may have been related to mine, whether biologically or just as a result of living with someone who's impacting them in a way, causing them stress. And that family counselor said to Rebecca, actually kind of pulled her aside and said, maybe Adam's struggling with ocd. She said, I'm not an expert. She's a licensed family counselor. But she said, this isn't my specialty. And then Rebecca communicated that to me. And so I did some assessment, and I just didn't really feel like it fit me well. And that description, I may have some tendencies to those behaviors. And then I mentioned it to a friend who's a psychiatrist, and he said, yeah, you might want to consider ocpd, which I never. I'd never heard of before. So I started doing some research and assessment on that online. And then I arrived at that feeling and sense that this is really descriptive of me in a lot of ways, more ways than not. So I started reading a book by Gary Trasclair, the Healthy Compulsive. And that was a good resource, like, to start understanding that this might be me. And started listening to his podcast. And even Gary in that book says, you really need to seek professional help to the degree to which this is affecting your life. And I knew it was affecting me greatly, me and my family at that point. So I knew that the book and the podcast wasn't necessarily going to fix everything. So our life coach friend said to me, what would you do if you were going to get your wife or children help in something that they were really struggling in? I said I would seek the expert. So he said to me, adam, why wouldn't you do the same thing for yourself? And so I emailed Gary Traskler and he directed me to Dr. Pinto at Norquill. And I was it Was, you know, a little bit of a humbling thing to do and a little scary too, because I'm like, okay, I don't know what this is going to look like. This is like in the same state, but it's kind of far away. I did all the assessment work and many steps of kind of just realizing, committing to the process and saying, like, all right, this is important enough to me to really address it. I've got to submit myself to whatever the experts are saying. And so arriving at where I am now with, as Dr. Pinto mentioned, you know, some tools, it didn't come at like a very direct route. It was even. And he, you guys even mentioned dbt. I even went to a counselor where I lived here who that was kind of his specialty. And I didn't feel like that was a good fit for me. Like, I was like, you know what, I don't want to settle. Or like, this might be. It's like when you need an electrician but you've got somebody there who's a plumber. And it's like, all right, you have some knowledge in this stuff, but you really need the person who's going to have the right tools. And so for me, just to give some examples, Dr. Pinto alluded to the self care and things like that. I'd always use exercise as an outlet, but that can even kind of become an obsession at times.
- [57:54]
A
Sure.
- [57:54]
D
So even creating balance there in life and asking myself, like, how much physical activity do I need versus rest? And you know, like even now, even recently realizing that before I go to bed, I really have to like set a major margin between when I look at email or when I think about anything that's like, because I do everything 110%, it'll fuck my sleep, a whole night of sleep to like address an email that I could have let go till the morning and just allowing for space to like wind down and even that affects my relationships because I could tell Rebecca, this isn't about you. I'm really intense about something else. Or my kids say, sorry, I really reacted that way because of this email I just got or something. But after a while that's on deaf ears. Like, I'm responsible for myself, for what I take in and how I take it in and the boundary that I set in my own life to not let these triggers happen or affect me. I mean, to give you an example, yesterday I was in group therapy with Dr. Pinto and it was getting close to 6 o' clock and we're about to be done and I see Coming to the office door, I can see through the windows. My wife and daughter waiting because we're going to go to Lakonski for my daughter. And I literally, after being in therapy with Dr. Pinto and using some of these tools, said to myself, had that pause, and I'm looking at the screen, I look over, and I said to myself, it's okay if they want to leave. They can take a separate car. If they suggest that, like, tell yourself that, like. Because in the past, I'd have been like, no, that makes no sense to drive in two separate cars. That's inefficient. We won't be together. Like, it's too much running around. I have a way of doing things. No, if they say that, I'm going to be okay with that. But it's. It's acknowledging that. I think the other thing, too, is I realize these tools are not something that I just need for this season where I'm in therapy getting help. Like, I'm gonna need them for long term. Like, I think the perception I had was, I'm gonna go through this treatment with Dr. Pinto, and then I'm gonna come out on the other side, and it's like, hey, you're sort of fixed. You're not gonna have these feelings and thoughts anymore. And what I've realized from learning from other people who are in group therapy and stuff is, like, these thoughts, these feelings, these tendencies, these ways of thinking and behaving at times are still gonna. You're gonna have them, but you're gonna have the tools to manage them well and modulate and to turn the dials that you didn't know were there. But I would say that pause is another big piece. So much of my life has been, go, go, go, go, go. And in terms of relationships, one of the things that's helped is, particularly when my kids were younger, Rebecca mentioned earlier, like, how I would come home and walk into the house and have that same mentality at home that I had at work, where I'd see all the things that were around. I began to, like, stay in the car until I had sort of let all that kind of die down. Don't take the seatbelt off until you tell yourself, okay, you're not going to walk in there. And even if you see these things, you have a choice over how you respond to them. You may have the thoughts, you may have the feelings, but the behavior is that you're not going to say anything about them. Because what's most important is those three kids and your wife don't go in the house until you're ready to do that, because it's going to affect the rest of the evening. So, yeah, I think so much of it, too, is just kind of coming at it with a willingness to try some of these things that Dr. Pintos offered in terms of tools and implement them and say, like, all right, it may not feel good at the moment. I'm going to try to use them. And at first, it's sort of retrospective. Like, I. One of the things is a chain analysis where you maybe take a situation where you had an argument with. Had an argument with Rebecca or a situation with one of the kids, and then break it down like, okay, what were my vulnerability factors? I came in here, I had a bad night of sleep. I had a lot of stress at work. Okay. All these things. And then this happened. And break it down and see where these things happen and then start to. Instead of retrospectively see them, like, all right, I'm seeing this happening again the same way, and I don't want it to repeat itself. So where can I break that chain now so that I don't go back to that place where I enter a crazy cycle and it ends up affecting relationship.
- [61:52]
A
Yeah.
- [61:53]
C
If I can pop in. Since Adam's been in therapy, I'm seeing if he does have a reaction, like a negative reaction to a situation. It's so much shorter, so it dies down a lot quicker. So in the past, maybe it would go on and on and on and on. Now it's dying down. He's able to turn it around very quickly where in the past, he didn't. He didn't even see that he was doing anything wrong.
- [62:18]
D
Been going for days.
- [62:19]
C
Days. Yeah. Where now he's like, oh, I shouldn't have reacted that way. And we're quickly able to move on, turn it around and move on. So that's been really encouraging.
- [62:29]
A
Yeah. And I'm sure it's felt not only by you, but, like, also, Adam is the one experiencing it as well. It takes a toll. It really takes gas out of that tank, as Anthony was describing before. And you said so many really wonderful things. I'm just impressed that a psychiatrist knew about ocpd. Anthony. I mean, are we, like, give it up for the psychiatrist? You, of course, work with a psychiatrist at Northwell that is very well versed in ocpd, but not everyone is. So, yeah, Adam reviewed a lot of really helpful tools, and I would love to unpack some of them more. Let's start maybe with the pause.
- [63:07]
D
Yeah.
- [63:08]
B
Yeah. I Know, Adam did a great job of giving some of the highlights of his cognitive behavioral therapy. And, you know, one thing to I wanted to comment on is that CBT is a treatment that is skill based, skill in practice, right? So we will teach a skill and then we'll work on practicing it and integrating it into the person's life. And that could be done through individual therapy. And fortunately, at Northwell, we also have group therapy specific to ocpd. And so the combination of those two can be really helpful because you can not only work on personalizing the treatment in your individual therapy, but also see how other people are doing it. And that provides both encouragement and accountability for making behavior change, because, let's face it, behavior change is very difficult. So it requires a community within your life. You know, in this case, with Rebecca's support, but also, you know, through the help of not only the professional, but peers. So the pause is really essential. And I just want to share a quote. This has been attributed to Victor Frankel. Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. And I think that's really beautiful because, you know, the person with ocpd, when they are in a triggering situation, they will very quickly default to their control behaviors. And so one of the primary things that we need to do is work on slowing things down and inserting a little space. That pause, which can take the form of a breath. It could be an emotion regulation tool like dropping anchor, which we've talked about in. In prior episodes, but creating a moment for yourself where you can remind yourself of what are my big picture values, Right? So if I see stray shoes on the floor or socks or dishes in the sink, to be able to say in that moment, I love my spouse. Right? And that is like the purpose of the pause, to recollect yourself, to have a conversation about what is really important to me. Because if I don't do that, I'm going to be reactive to what's in front of me, which is disorder or errors or things that are not meeting my standard. And so it's helpful to do that. Reorienting and inserting that pause, of course, is difficult because the brain reacts quickly. And so we're trying to shift away from this. Reacting in the instant or moving into this default mode setting of like, control versus responding skillfully. And that's what CBT is all about. Giving you new skills that you can then use when you pause. So that emotion regulation is really, really critical. You Know, we talked about the dimmer switch. The timber switch is really also connected to values, because the early steps of CBT is for the therapist to get a better understanding of, like, what is the life that the person wants. And in the case of Adam was very clear. He's like, I want to nurture my relationship with my wife and my kids. And that was, like, a huge motivation for him. And so knowing what those core values are for the person helps us to then figure out, okay, how can we align your time and how you budget time and prioritize time to be in line with what's important to you? You know, if you're working most of the week in overworking, but you say that your relationship is important to you, that that's a disconnect, Right? So then we need to contain the work time so you have the time and energy and space to devote towards these relationships, whether it's a significant other, children, family, friends. So the dimmer switch is a tool to say, is the task in front of me strongly connected to my big values or not? Because if it's not, then I have to dial it down. Chores are something I have to get done, but they don't have to be done with great finesse or precision. So that's a chance for me to dial down, save some time that I can then allocate to something that's more important to me. But doing that process is difficult because it means you're going to have to then learn to allow for tasks to be done in a good enough way rather than into this more perfect, optimal way.
- [67:38]
D
Adam, I was just going to say one of the beautiful things about the tools that I've been taught through Dr. Pinto's work, is one of the things I think people with ocpd, and at least I do personally struggle with when I started to get help was thinking about the lost opportunities. Like, oh, I think back about the pictures of me sitting with my kids being born in. In scrubs, where I was at work, and I came and was with my wife for a while, and then I was back at work. And some of that's generational. Like, now they have, you know, paid family leave, family leave, and things like that. But some of that was the way I chose to live my life. And, you know, I think about some of the things that I did were just that were downright, like, just hurtful or unfair to Rebecca, like controlling the air conditioning. Like, I actually feel guilt about that. But when I think of Dr. Pinto's work, it's very forward Thinking I get stuck in the past sometimes. Like, that can lead to rumination about, oh, I should have fixed. I should have done it this way, dragging myself down, which can lead to. You're already struggling with anxiety at times. This is going to lead you to a very depressed state. And a lot of the tools that are implemented are. Are like, all right, how can we move forward? How can we reach for those things that we're aiming for now and not get bogged down with the mistakes you've made in the past? Because that's been my struggle in the past in counseling is like, all right, we're going to talk about what all these things that happened in the past. And it's like, no, we're going to try to go from where we are now to a better place. And as far as the. One of the comment I want to make in the pause was, for me, recently Dr. Pinto brought forth the idea. And I don't know if there's a psychological term for it or behavioral term, but he was talking about thoughts versus thinking. And that pause, for me, really gives me that opportunity to take thoughts and decide what I'm going to do with them. And in the past, I would take it to a thinking place where it was many times lies, Like, I would tell myself things like, oh, Rebecca, she doesn't care about this, or, she doesn't care about what I'm saying or what I'm doing. And it would lead to relational conflict. And I think just being able to take that pause and have that time to separate, okay, these are thoughts. Where are you going to take that with your thinking and not let it go, like, into the spiraling? Because, I mean, Rebecca can speak to the spiral because she would call it out many times and I didn't know what to do with it.
- [69:45]
C
Yeah, he would just. He would really go on and on and on and on, and we would go nowhere. But, yeah, it was just a spiraling of thoughts, and it was unproductive and. And. And, yeah, and it would make me put up walls.
- [69:59]
B
And it was verbal but also text messaging, right?
- [70:02]
C
Oh, yes. Yes, exactly. Sometimes it was conversation, and sometimes it was paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph. And I would answer with very short responses, and I'd get more paragraphs back.
- [70:14]
A
Right.
- [70:14]
D
I was seeking validation, you know, like, which, again, is unhealthy.
- [70:19]
A
Yes.
- [70:19]
B
Yeah. And that's a good example of, like, you know, where operating from this, like, logic standpoint, if she can only see my point, and then they drill down and can become, like, badgering in terms of Trying to, like, convince the person. And. And it's. And continuing with that strategy, even when it's clearly not working.
- [70:39]
D
Oh, yeah. Like, total lack of awareness that, like, you're putting so much effort and work into this, and it's not getting you anywhere, but staying there, just staying.
- [70:49]
C
And then it would push me away. Further away.
- [70:50]
A
Sure.
- [70:51]
D
Right.
- [70:52]
A
Well. And, you know, validation in and of itself, not wrong. A lot of these things, like caring about things being done a certain way in and of itself, not wrong, but in moderation. And there wasn't the moderation. It was the switch. It was, if we're doing this, we have to do it well. We have to do it perfectly. We have to do it to this standard. And that's where it wasn't serving you. Because, again, going back to what you were saying earlier in the episode, Adam, the fact that these things had importance, that's okay. That they had importance, but it was, how much are we going to die on this hill that this is important versus missing maybe some of these relationships that are of the ultimate importance. And I don't have any energy, I don't have any gas left to be able to attend to that. And so learning to. I. I forget who said it, but it's one of my favorite quotes. I use it all the time with clients. I use it within my own life. In parenting, et cetera, is really getting to a space where we can use our mistakes well. It's not that our mistakes break us, but the opportunity to learn, to grow, to pivot, to reprioritize, to pause is so important, and it's gonna be uncomfortable. So, you know, we could also add in that space skill. Right, Anthony, of the behavioral experiments, sometimes we gotta practice that and go, how did it go? Was I able to do this? Was it worth it? Was I able to get sleep afterwards and practice that?
- [72:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, the behavioral part of CBT is being able to try new things, so that can show up in terms of willingness exercises. So willingness is like a. Basically an openness to experiencing unpleasant thoughts, feelings, and physiological sensations in pursuit of one's goals and values. And so being able to say, yes, I feel like I should be working right now. I feel guilty that I'm not working, but I want to spend time with my partner and nurture this relationship. So I'm going to sit here, have a conversation, or watch a show together and allow the discomfort I'm feeling in terms of these thoughts and physical sensations while I be present here with my partner. So willingness can take the form of A variety of, like, flexibility behaviors, trying to push yourself to try new things, take a different route to work, you know, wear mismatched socks or change the way you do your hair. And those are like, small examples really, to help the person learn to put themselves in an uncomfortable situation and learn that flexibility and variety is possible. And then you mentioned, Nicole, behavioral experiments. That's where you go in and specifically test a rule that you have. And, you know, that could be, you know, you know, wearing a shirt to work that hasn't been ironed. Right. If that's your. Your standard, or putting the dishes in the dishwasher, but without rinsing them first. And so looking at some of these rules that had been unquestioned and now trying it a new way. So those are some, like, the behavioral strategies. Yeah. And then just I want to make sure that since this is an episode devoted towards relationships, you know, some of CBT will also work on what are some of the healthy behaviors that we can try to maximize for people with OCPD that will support the relationship. And so I really enjoy the work of the Gottmans. And we cover this in several of our group therapy relationships meetings. In terms of the Gottmans, they talk about deposits and withdrawals. And, you know, we talked earlier about criticism and blaming. Those things will withdraw from the relationship account. You know, if we think of the relationship having like a. An account of love and affection in endearment. And so the criticisms, the monitoring, the micromanaging, all of that detracts from that account. And so we want to make sure that we're also working with the individual with OCPD to increase the number of deposits. And deposits can be affirmations, acknowledgments of things that the person does. Giving compliments not only about behaviors that your partner does, but about who they are. And so the Gottmans have laid out that for a successful relationship, you should have a ratio of deposits to withdrawals that are at least five to one. And so that's something all of us can work on, not just people with ocpd. And the other thing that Adam and Rebecca have shared with me is that they are trying to meet as a couple to do check ins. You know, how are we doing as a couple? You know, what are some struggles and being able to, like, have that checkup time to help make sure that we're staying on track.
- [75:31]
A
I love that.
- [75:32]
B
Yeah. Adam, did you want to jump in?
- [75:35]
D
Yeah, I just. When you were talking about willingness, I think early on you encouraged me to. There's been many manifestations of control and in our relationship in one of one kind of small, outward way, but an unhealthy way would be they would pick Rebecca's clothes out at times and leave them out. And you encouraged me to stop doing that, you know, and sort of an outward manifestation of willingness to let go of something. And they did that. And I think those kind of things that are like, an outward thing you can do where you're just able to tangibly say, okay, I'm going to let go of this thing. Like, now, I transition that to, I always think Rebecca looks good in whatever she wears. She's a great dresser. It's more of the, oh, I can be actually excited, surprised, see what she's going to wear. You know, I don't have to be in control of that thing. I'd switch it around and, like, I wonder what she's going to wear today. And with my kids, a willingness to, like, obviously, kids don't have schedules like we do. You know, as much as I in my brain think, oh, yeah, kids are going to think, like, I do that they want to know what time this is going to happen. No, they love spontaneity. And so as recent as yesterday, I'm driving home and hitting some traffic, and my middle daughter texts me and says, where are you? When will you be home? And I say, why? And she says, I'd like to go for a walk. Well, I already had in my head some tasks that I wanted to do when I got home, but I knew I had that willingness to say, that walk is way more of an opportunity for a pile of reasons in those tasks. And that was another thing, again, that that Dr. Pinto encouraged me to do with my kids was be willing to enter into their spontaneous life where it'll be obviously good for them, good for you, and good for the relationship where it's not all dictated by, like, hey, you need to have an appointment with me as your father to do this thing where you could be out there raking, which I know happened last year with my oldest, and she said, can we go for a walk? And I just have to drop the rake. You know, like, it's just. That's a tangible. It's like the clothes. I'm not going to touch the clothes. I'm going to drop the ring and go on the wall and have a willingness to just start to do some things tangibly that feel uncomfortable at first, but then you're like, no, actually feels pretty good.
- [77:42]
B
And that's where the pause worked out, right? Because you were able to take that moment to lead with what's best for the relationship versus my emotional need to feel like I'm being productive.
- [77:52]
D
Right.
- [77:53]
C
Yeah.
- [77:54]
A
And, you know, I really like two that you're allowed to care that you wanted to rake or see it to completion. But you also don't have to let that rule you and miss out a beautiful opportunity to go on a fall walk with your daughter. And so, again, it's honoring that. Yeah, this is important to you, and you had this list, but also, you have choice, and there are other things important to you. And you can dim up on spending time with family and dim down on raking leaves for the moment. Right. And it's a beautiful example. I really appreciate that. Hey, therapists and psychologists want to learn more about OC related disorders? Then check out OCD training schools, expert led CE eligible trainings over at ocdfamilypodcast.com forward slash courses. Because when you use my link, you can support the POD at no extra cost and learn on your time, your terms. Again, that's ocdfamilypodcast.com courses. And now back to the show. Okay, well, as we think about the individual work and we've talked a lot about the individual work, you've also referenced the group a little bit. I would love to hear what the experience has been like doing group therapy for ocpd because I would imagine just knowing you're not alone in this has such great value, but also the ability for people that are walking this road and journey as well to maybe challenge you or press into some different ways that we can grow can also be of benefit. And so we'd love to hear more about your experience in group therapy, Adam.
- [79:35]
D
Sure. It's actually, I would say, relatively new for me. I think I've been at it six or seven weeks, and I would say from the outset, I don't want to say was resistant to it. I just was. I didn't know what it would be like, you know, even zoom meetings and stuff. I just. It was just part of my issue is dealing with things that are unknown. You know, the therapists that I worked with alongside Dr. Pinto early on had alluded to it many times like, hey, it's something you should consider. And Dr. Pinto really has seen that as something that's beneficial. And I had that in the back of my mind. But I knew, too, with my life schedule, I needed to change some things to make it a priority, which is, again, part of that readiness and just willingness to make changes will get me to a point of health. So I had to at first make it a priority and say, hey, this is something I'm going to commit to. But I would say one of the group members said recently, and I don't know if they came up on their own, but use the picture of a mirror that talks back to me. Like, just that sense that, like, I'm looking in this group and seeing so many things that are characteristic of myself. And I had to apologize early on because I didn't know the culture and tone of the group at first, but say, like, there's times where I'm smiling or may even be chuckling because I'm like, wow. Other people, it's not even that they experience the same feelings or thoughts, but they do the exact same thing where I'm like, I don't. I want to, like, apologize and say, I'm not laughing at you, I'm just saying, like, oh, wow, like, that's me. Like, so I just. To be able to have someone else who can relate and not feel, like, alone in it, feel that stigma of, like, wow. I've always kind of felt alone feeling this because you're often the one. Not just at the family gathering, but just in life at times, because nobody really talks about. I would say at work, I see it now more where I'm like, oh, that person might drunk. But it really just puts. Although it's abnormal, it puts some normalcy to some of the things you're doing. Like, wow, it's. It is abnormal. But there's other people that struggle with it, too, and just sharing common struggles. But also there's other nuances of OCPD that I don't really struggle with. Like, I don't struggle with getting tasks done to completion. I struggle with stopping doing the next task. So I think it's helped me with the empathy side of, like, all right, I may not struggle in that area, but I'm hearing someone else who does. And, man, that's really hard. Like, I. I feel empathy for that person, which, again, empathy at times can be a struggle for people with ocpd. So it's. It's just encouraging to hear other people's stories, to share some of the tools they've used and how it's worked for them just to, I think, have accountability too. Like, I think, you know that somebody's going to ask you a question and be ready to give an answer. Like, you're really sort of expected to be working on this. Like, you're all fighting for the same thing. You Want to get better. So, yeah, the accountability is helpful, too. It's. It's actually something I look forward to, I would say, like, where I don't want to miss it because it's just been a real growth opportunity for me.
- [82:24]
A
I love that. And, you know, I know you said it was six or seven groups that you've been at, but you've already had that really meaningful impact. Have you noticed the mirror talking to you? Absolutely. But anything else, too, that you would distinguish, you gained from that time, that was different from individual. Because some people might be like, but why do I need that, too? Like, I couldn't get that out of individual, maybe. Right?
- [82:47]
D
Yeah. I mean, I think. Well, just to be able to encourage other people and be encouraged by them, too. Like, obviously, Dr. Pinto is very encouraging and affirming and stuff, but to hear other people doing that too, and just. It's really cool because there's multiple generations represented and to see people who are, you know, a decade or two older than me who are not giving up, like, they're like, all right, I've heard people say, and this is no criticism of them, but I'm this old, and this is how I'm going to be. Like, I've decided this is how I'm going to be. And to see people showing up who. Even though they're still struggling, or to see some very young people who I'm, like, really encouraged by saying, like, wow, you know, like, they're catching this at a very young age. To be able to maybe prevent hurt that, you know, could have gone on longer, or disappointment or frustration, then I'm kind of more in the middle where I'm like, I wish. I wish I had known this sooner. Grateful to finally have found the hell, and now I can move forward. So just that balance there. And to see multiple generations and just different backgrounds, too. You know, people who have had some real struggles in life can see how this maybe contributed to them having some of these traits reinforced. So I think the mutual encouragement and just accountability is just solid.
- [83:59]
A
Yeah, I love that. You know, you said something earlier that I wrote down, and this ties it back in, is you had mentioned, I'm not gonna settle. I wanna keep working. And it's not that you hadn't. It wasn't for lack of trying. You were doing all these therapies. Your kids were in therapies. You were trying with the tools and the knowledge and the information you had available to help solve this and improve. But I think one of the strengths of your personality amplified. I Am not going to settle. And being surrounded by people going, yeah, you're never too old to feel a sense of peace and freedom in relationships. And there is hope that this can improve. I think that's such a beautiful thing.
- [84:41]
B
Yeah. The OCPD group therapy is certainly a highlight of my week. I run two of these groups and. And it's a beautiful thing when we have someone new come to the group and that moment when they hear other people talking and they see themselves, that I think is really encouraging. That's why podcasts like this are so important, because we're hoping people out there are hearing these stories and seeing themselves and that can be an encouragement towards treatment. But yeah, the group therapy, like Adam says, provides accountability. You get input from other people. We teach the CBT skills, but we also have an opportunity for people to commit to practicing and then reporting back to the group. It could be a good strategy even for somebody who is weaning off of their individual. It can be a place where they can then work on maintaining their gains even when they stop individuals. So ultimately CBT is thought of as a time limited treatment where you learn skills to become your own therapist. And so the group can be a way to keep you on track. And I know Northwell Health is in New York and so we treat people all over New York, which, you know, for people who are not in the New York area, I would encourage you to go to ocpd.org to get more information about OCPD. But there is also a peer led online group that is support for people and families affected by ocpd. So you can get some support there. But yeah, we are hoping that there will be more such groups in other states so more people will have this opportunity.
- [86:12]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And so again, I'm going to link ocpd.org over on this episode's blog. And is that online community, is it on a social media like Facebook or is it like a zoom? Do you know?
- [86:22]
D
It's a.
- [86:22]
B
It's a zoom. It happens, I believe twice, twice a month.
- [86:25]
A
Okay. And so I'm going to guess you can find out more information about that on octd.org yeah.
- [86:32]
B
And the group is called you, me and OCPD.
- [86:35]
A
Yes, I think I've linked it before. We'll link it again and I think, yeah, that's fantastic. I want to say your Pops online version is also available. So for people that are unfamiliar with what the pops is, do you want to. We have the creator here. Would you like to share what that is?
- [86:51]
B
Yeah. So the The POPS is the Pathological Obsessive Compulsive Personality Scale. It's a self report MEAS that gives you a sense of the severity but also the trait profile and how OCPD shows up for you. If you go to ocpd.org, you can complete that measure anonymously and for free. You'll get a report at the end of that, which you can then take to a clinician for feedback. And it can also be a useful tool to use as you're going through your treatment to see how you're responding. So yeah, it's great to have it on ocpd.org so it's more available to people and it'll be scored for you.
- [87:30]
A
Yeah, I actually had a new client come in and go, oh, so I have this thing, I don't know if you've heard of it. I was like, you know, I have and you're in the right place. So I, I love that that you've made that available and there are a lot of great resources. Let me ask you, Rebecca, have there been different ways through this therapy process that Adam's been in that you've been able to learn and how have you as a spouse angled your support to learn more about OCPD or even take care of your own needs when you need to?
- [88:07]
C
Really good. I actually have attended some sessions with Adam early on in his therapy, so it helped me learn things too. And then really, Adam can be very self critical and so I, I really try to keep him in a forward moving mindset, just thinking about how he can improve for next time and not holding a grudge. You know, I move on very quickly from things. So I think that helps too.
- [88:34]
D
I think having Rebecca in the sessions, my goal, like I really wanted her there because I think one of the things is OCPD is you don't really know how to accurately represent yourself because you may think this is normal, like kind of that egosyntonic, you know, term they used earlier. Like you, you're, this is really ingrained in you. So you think, hey, and this is what we would do in marriage counseling. A lot of times I would be thinking this is what happened and this is what should have happened.
- [88:58]
A
And right.
- [88:59]
D
I really wanted in this therapy for her perspective, like this is really what's happening here. And I wanted a clear picture to be painted because I didn't know that I could do it all the time. I didn't want to walk away and be like, oh, I just talked to my therapist or you know, and then come back to Rebecca, and she'd be like, how did it go? I really wanted her to know what information was being shared, because I wanted it to be accurate, because I don't think those of us who struggle with OCPD really know what it's like to live with someone like that.
- [89:29]
C
I think, too, like, at the beginning, Adam wasn't sure what was a healthy way of thinking and an unhealthy. So, like, to tease that out, like, is this healthy or is this my ocpd? So trying to figure out that at the beginning was a little bit tricky. So I think that's why he appreciated my input in the counseling sessions, to see, like, maybe where he could improve.
- [89:51]
D
Even determining, like, which. Like Dr. Pinto mentioned earlier, there's the anxious type and the control type. We really spend a lot of time discussing that, like, because that can determine a little bit of the pathway you take. And in therapy, though, I would say I have anxiety at times. More often than not, I'm struggling with control type. And that's many of the things when we reflect over the years, we would call it anxiety, But I would say, no, that was at its core, these OCPD tendencies.
- [90:19]
C
Yeah. One thing that I really appreciate about Adam is his desire to grow and desire to change and his desire to have close relationships with all of us. That. I think that's what keeps me going, too, is that he really. He really has great intentions, and I know he loves his family so much. So I appreciate that he's willing to put in the work and the time. And I know it's. It's not easy. And I think coming to the realization that my thoughts and my feelings aren't going to change, this is something I have to live with long term. But I am going to be able to change how I respond, and it is going to benefit the relationships in my life. I. I think that's amazing.
- [91:02]
A
Yeah. Well, and for both of you, both of you showing up and having some flexibility so many times, we're like, if this dynamic has been this dynamic, it's not going to change. And for both of you to come and be vulnerable and be willing, it sounds like a beautiful partnership. And, you know, I. I just think too, I would imagine, Adam, it's hard to trust yourself sometimes because you're like, okay, I've been so used to thinking in this way, is this right? Is this wrong? And so being able to get to a place in treatment where you go, actually, I can have a choice. And it's not about being a Wrong answer. But breaking that chain and moving forward and being able to prioritize the things that are meaningful and you can't trust yourself to go, hey, my family relationships are meaningful. This is meaningful. And I think that's also a wonderful piece that you can get in treatment. There's hope. There's hope. There's freedom in being able to prioritize those things.
- [91:59]
B
Yeah, no, that's great. A great testament that yes, this is a personality condition, but is changeable with the right forms of treatment and with the willingness by the individual to make the change and the support system around the individual, in this case, Rebecca and the rest of the family. So just like you said, Nicole, this is a great encouragement for other people to take that step towards treatment.
- [92:23]
D
Yeah, I'm thinking here about just trusting the process too. Like, there's times I can remember very early on thinking about cognitive triad where you have, you know, thoughts, behaviors and feelings and being asked, you know, which one of those do you think when you're in a situation is easier to change? And I'm thinking, like, you probably need to change your thoughts before you change your behaviors and stuff. And I was told, like, no, it's actually found that it's behaviors often will change before you can change some of those other things. And being like, really? Okay, yeah, that's true. And then being able to, like, use the tools that have been given to me and like, realize that's actually true. Like, I don't think in the moment when I was being taught that, like in a session, like, all right, gotta see if that works. And then try it a few times. And you're like, that's actually true. And it, it branches out into other things too, where it's just like, all right, that's a new thought, new idea, but I'll try it. And then being able to trust these people that are dedicating their lives to this stuff, have our best interest in mind, and it's actually true what they're saying. Like, if you implement some of this stuff, it's really going to work well.
- [93:27]
A
And conceptually, sometimes we think of change almost like that switch. Like for something to change, it has to go 180 degrees the other direction. And a really nerdy example I'll talk about all the time with my clients. So anybody that might be listening, I'll be like, yep, she says this all the time. But I think of like almost an old school compass and a protractor. And it's like out of 360 degrees, right? Even 1 degree of change is forever setting you on a different trajectory. And it might not look like much at the beginning. In fact, it's going to look virtually the same. But we follow that array out, and we are forever on a different path. And so sometimes change is just a little posture, a little bit of a drop of the rake, a little bit of a. I'm going to do this pause, and I'm going to say it's okay if they drive a second car. And so change doesn't have to be 180 degrees, and it is possible. And you guys are showing that and living that. And I am just so incredibly thankful for your time and coming today. Any final thoughts we would like to share with the OCD family community as we wrap up?
- [94:35]
D
I don't think so. I'm again, grateful for the opportunity, and I would just encourage anyone who is affected by this, whether it be, you know, that you're could be struggling with CPD or know someone who is. Who you're close to to seek help and that it is. It is out there. And if you live in New York State, Dr. Pinto is definitely someone I would recommend to follow his treatment plan and just get involved in the help that he can offer.
- [94:59]
C
Yeah. And the only thing I'd like to say is the getting the specific help really makes a huge difference. So we were getting help for years, but it wasn't really making much of a difference. But as soon as we found Dr. Pinto and got help for this specific condition, that's when change really started to occur. Yeah.
- [95:18]
B
Yeah. And thank you so much, Adam and Rebecca, for sharing your stories today. It's. It really brings to life, you know, all of the teachings and the principles and the skills to hear how you have been implementing them. And I'm so happy to see that you have made progress and that you will continue to be committed to this process. And thank you, Rebecca, for supporting him as you have. I wanted to just mention that the Northwell Health OCD center, in addition to providing treatment for OCD and ocpd, we do accept most forms of insurance. We're also a training program in psychology and psychiatry. And so the. The therapist that did the initial individual work with Adam, his name is Joseph Breyer. He was a psychology extern who I supervised. And since he completed his externship, I've been working with Adam directly, both individually and group. But the importance of that is that these skills that we're talking about not only are important for patients, but they can be taught to therapists. And so therapists out there who have been trained in cbt. You can also incorporate this work in expanding towards treating ocpd. And so I hope more people will take that on because there's definitely a need for individuals with OCPD to access this treatment. And I will have a self help book coming out in the summer of 2026. So that'll be another opportunity to put some of these resources in the hands of people that are affected. And so hopefully I'll come back and talk about that.
- [96:45]
A
Oh, absolutely. We saw each other at the OCD conference this summer and I was like, like, let's make it happen. I love that. Also, Anthony does a number of trainings, sometimes at the conference, sometimes with different agencies around the US and perhaps even internationally.
- [97:04]
B
Yeah, that's in the works.
- [97:06]
A
Yeah, it's in the works. But if you're a therapist and you're like, I really would love to get some continuing education on this or see availability. Do you know, Anthony, does ocpd.org have any links to, to upcoming trainings or things of that sort?
- [97:20]
B
Yeah, not at the, at the moment. I mean, I think there is a modular package that is going to be put up there and I collaborated with some therapists who put that together. And so that, that's going to be coming up and that will be a CE platform that clinicians can sign up for.
- [97:36]
A
Yeah. And I think of the past, whether it's with Shepherd Pratt or I'm trying to think maybe Marlon Doubler's.
- [97:42]
B
I did, I did that as well.
- [97:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's ways to learn, there's ways to adapt. And I am just incredibly thankful for the time. This is sacred space allowing us into this process. And again, I know the ripple effect will continue to have an impact, but we are rooting for you guys. And I just want to end with saying, Rebecca made such a great point. You can be in therapy for 15 years and if it's not the right treatment, it's not the right treatment. You know, a trope we use sometimes in our field here is, you know, you can try and fix a leaky faucet with a hammer, but that probably isn't going to be the best tool for the job. And so finding the right tool for the job makes an amazing difference. And if you're like, does it get better? Can it get better? I need it to get better. Have hope. Yes, yes. There's always, always hope. And so thank you all for your time. I really, I value it. It's a gift to our community. And thank you.
- [98:45]
B
Yeah. Thank you, Nicole, for, for doing this.
- [98:47]
D
Thanks.
- [98:49]
A
Intrusive thoughts. All right. What a powerful exchange, huh? A huge thank you to Dr. Pinto for sharing his expertise and his guests, Adam and Rebecca with us. And Adam and Rebecca, we appreciate your vulnerability in sharing your hearts. So as we head into today's intrusive thought segment, which is my application segment of the show for any newer fam joining us, I thought, you know, what we could all benefit from OCPD or not, is a short reflection and a short application even of a willingness exercise. So here's the invitation. I want you to think of something today that you are struggling to accept. Maybe it's a messy relationship dynamic, maybe it's a lack of control. Maybe it's a hard emotion that you just wish would go away. Maybe it's the holidays, expenses, politics, could be anything, fam. And then I want you to ask yourself, what would it look like to soften around this trigger point? Even 10%, just dim down just a bit off the top. Can I let this discomfort exist without needing to solve it right now? That is willingness. Not giving in, not giving up, but allowing discomfort to coexist with your value driven choices, giving that 10% back to something a lot more worthwhile. Perhaps time spent with your kids. Maybe it's hanging Christmas or Hanukkah decorations or daydreaming with your boo about winter travel. It's that gentle pivot back toward freedom. So call it maybe a rollover from Thanksgiving what am I thankful for vibe. But it goes beyond that. What am I willing to release in service of what I want to choose to focus on? It's some of that radical acceptance where we can go, you know what? I didn't choose for money to be tied. I didn't choose for weather or health issues or whatever the case may be. But I can choose my response to it. And then there's one last note I wanted to share after we finished recording this episode with Anthony and Adam and Rebecca. Rebecca made a really good point that I wrote down and I just wanted to make sure that I followed up on because it stuck with me. And Rebecca noted, oh, I feel like I should have said this during our time. And I thought, you know what? I got you, Rebecca. I'm going to share it right now. And that was this. She essentially was like, you know what? This is going to be a lifelong process. Adam is going to have the brain he has, he's going to have the tendencies he has and he isn't going to quote, unquote, get over this. I have in quotations in my notes. Get over get over this. In my speak. I often tell the family here that our brain is going to brain and yeah, Adam has ocpd, so the brain is gonna brain, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn how to be healthier. So I had that note and I just wanted to pass that on because I thought there were so many wonderful things both Adam and Rebecca shared. But I did want to pay that thought forward. So as we wrap up this year's OCRD series, I just want to say how deeply grateful I am for all the incredible guests and lived experience warriors who shared their stories and Expertise. We explored BFRBs, BDD, ARFID and OCPD, and I hope these conversations have sparked something in you too. A new insight, a little more compassion, maybe even a gentle pivot in how you see yourself or your loved one. And then next week, it's time to get your merriment ready fam. Because tis the season and we are playing cards against ocd. The Ho ho Ho Holiday Edition. It's ridiculous, it's real. It's just the right mix of festive and educational. So bring your ugly sweaters or kickback, Relax, wear those comfy socks, bring your dark humor and your values and I'll meet you there. And don't forget that all the links and resources from today's episode are up@ocdfamilypodcast.com just find this episode on the blog. You can check out all the the past OCPD episodes. You can check out books that we've mentioned, all that jazz. So check it out. And thanks again for learning along with us until next week. Thank you for joining me and our OCD Family Community. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please like and subscribe to the OCD Family Podcast wherever you enjoy your podcasts. Did you find this content helpful? Please consider leaving a review. The more people that know they're not alone, the better. For more information regarding today's podcast, please visit ocdfamilypodcast.com and remember to join the email list while you're there. It will provide you with the most up to date information, resources and the download on the family chatter. Oh yeah, nothing says family like Anthony, Adam, Rebecca and me talking all about ocpd. That's right, I went there and you can too@ocdfamilypodcast.com. Hey practitioners, if you're looking to deepen your understanding of obsessive compulsive related disorders, check out the OCD training School's amazing course catalog on emetophobia, what to do when you have co occurring eating disorders and OCD, and process based therapy for BFRBs. Plus tons of OCD trainings and self help courses. Add that many of the trainings are apa, ASWB and NBCC CE eligible with both live and on demand options. I mean say less. So head on over to ocdfamilypodcast.com courses to learn more because when you use my special link, you will be supporting the POD at no extra cost to you. So let's get to learning family because we are better together.