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- [00:00]
Joe Weisenthal
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- [00:29]
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- [01:11]
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- [01:46]
Becca Milstein
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.
- [02:01]
Tracy Alloway
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.
- [02:05]
Joe Weisenthal
And I'm Joe Weisenthal.
- [02:07]
Tracy Alloway
Joe, as you know, although you sometimes
- [02:09]
Joe Weisenthal
forget, you love fish, if there's one thing I know about you, Tracy, you love fish. You love seafood. Right? That's where you were going, right?
- [02:19]
Tracy Alloway
That's exactly it. All right. Famously, some some long term Odd Lots listeners will have heard this story before, but the first time Joe ever invited me over to his house, he asked if I had any dietary restrictions and I said something like, you know, like I eat everything, but I'm not a big fish person. And then I went over to his house and was promptly served poke bowls.
- [02:42]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah, sorry about that.
- [02:43]
Tracy Alloway
It's all right. They're actually really good. And I do eat fish on occasion. I'm just not that big into it. Like I eat crab cakes, oysters. I just have to be in the
- [02:51]
Joe Weisenthal
right mood for fish I get it, I get it.
- [02:52]
Tracy Alloway
One thing I have never eaten though, is sardines.
- [02:56]
Joe Weisenthal
Oh, yeah, I've had sardines. I like them.
- [03:00]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah.
- [03:00]
Joe Weisenthal
I don't know if I have like a straw.
- [03:02]
Tracy Alloway
Do you just like take them out of the can and just stick them in your mouth like that?
- [03:05]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah, I think I have. Or like, I'll put them in like a salad or something like that.
- [03:08]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah, okay. Yeah, sardines.
- [03:11]
Joe Weisenthal
But you know what? I've definitely taken sardines and just like taken one out of a can and eaten it for sure.
- [03:16]
Tracy Alloway
Okay, well, I personally don't eat fish.
- [03:19]
Joe Weisenthal
That's not your thing.
- [03:19]
Tracy Alloway
Don't eat a lot of fish. Cause because of the taste. But it turns out it's becoming a pretty convenient distaste to have because we are now facing a sardine shortage.
- [03:29]
Joe Weisenthal
When we talk about tinned fish, it intersects with a bunch of interesting things that we talk about all the time or that come up. So it's like global supply chains generally, I think. You know, I've said this a couple of times on the podcast, but one factoid that I very remember from our trip to Alaska is how much fish is caught off the shores of Alaska. It's sold in the United States, but first it takes a detour to China for.
- [03:57]
Tracy Alloway
That's right. So even if you buy us caught Alaskan salmon, the chances are it's probably been processed through China.
- [04:03]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah, I find that to be really interesting. I find the sort of marketing of fish and the sort of branding. Because one thing that we know about tinned fish, especially over the last five years, is there's a whole like new demographic that doesn't just associate it with like the cheap sunkist or no, starkist tuna or whatever that brand was either the sort of low end tuna that sort of emerged. This like high end, high end premium version of canned tuna, which I really like. Canned tuna that's emerged. So there are all these sort of like different market things not to. And then you mentioned climate and some of the questions about, you know, supply and fish stocks, et cetera. There are many different intersecting stories of the canned fish story.
- [04:44]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah. And the big news right now is that Morocco, which apparently exports something like 50% of the world's sardine supply, has imposed a ban on sardine exports because of, again, citing reports overfishing. Apparently there's not enough plankton either to feed the little sardines. Which is sad because it means that penguins also don't. Penguins not in Morocco, but penguins elsewhere in the world also don't have enough to eat. So we're going to talk about all these things. We're going to talk about what's actually going on with the world sardine supply. Apply where sardines come from, where fish in general comes from, how it gets processed, what makes a good tinned fish versus a bad tin fish. And I'm happy to say we do in fact have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Becca Milstein. She is the founder and CEO of Fish Wife, which of course specializes in exactly that tin fish. And Becca, thank you so much for coming on odd lots. I have to say, when I finally eat my first sardine, I think it will be a Fish wife sardine.
- [05:48]
Becca Milstein
Can't wait for that day. Tracy, I truly can't. Thank you so much for having me.
- [05:52]
Tracy Alloway
The packaging has got me. The packaging got me. It's very good.
- [05:55]
Becca Milstein
Branding was definitely a big focus when I started working on the brand. You got to kind of do a bait and switch. There are a lot of people out there like you. Tracy.
- [06:05]
Tracy Alloway
Are there going to be fish puns in this conversation?
- [06:08]
Becca Milstein
As many as you'll allow. But yeah, we had to really counter position from what Americans associated with canned fish, which, as you probably know, was, you know, white and blue, super commodity, non branded canned fish. So obviously what the hard left all hand illustrated, super beautiful branding. And we still have our illustrator, you know, on staff creating new illustrations for us every single day.
- [06:39]
Tracy Alloway
So tell us about the origins of Fish Wife then. You just touched on it there. But the idea was to kind of make a premium tinned fish product that would maybe make Americans think a little bit more like in Europe, Right? In Europe, tinned sardines are like a nice thing to have. I remember my mom getting very excited about that.
- [06:56]
Becca Milstein
Yeah. So I, I'm from New Hampshire originally. I studied abroad in southern Spain and college in a city called Granada. And Granada is a very interesting city. Have you been there?
- [07:08]
Tracy Alloway
I have, yeah. I've had some of the best timon of my life in Granada and cheese.
- [07:13]
Becca Milstein
They really know how to do it. The interesting thing about Granada is that to my knowledge, it is still the only city in Spain that serves fritopas with every drink. So if you get like a little glass of beer, a little glass of wine, they will bring you out, whether it's, you know, on the very low end, potato chips on the very high end, like sardines, olives, jamon, um, you're just always being fed beautiful little bites. Um, and I was super inspired experiencing that and just Seeing how delicious these little snacks were, because, you know, they're super simple, no cooking involved, but the ingredients were of such a high quality that it just tasted so, so good, no matter really what little bar I was at. So between that and seeing the way that Spaniards eat and, you know, really just treasure the high quality of their. Their food products, and then traveling to Portugal, which is, like, where everyone has their conservatory experience, and it's certainly where I had mine in Lisbon, you know, seeing these beautiful shops with rows and rows of gorgeous tin fish. Like, it could not have been more different than my market basket in southern New Hampshire. And I at the time, certainly, you know, at age 20, wasn't like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. But during the COVID 19 pandemic, I started eating more canned fish. It's really, really good for you. It's ready to eat straight out of the tin. It's still stable. You know, when we were all trying to not go to the grocery store as much as possible, and there was sort of a light bulb moment, you know, seeing. I know you had Alison Roman on this podcast, seeing folks like Alison Roman and Anthony Bourdain and David Chang, like, they had all been espousing how incredible, especially, you know, really high quality anchovies or really high quality canned tuna. It was definitely in the ether. And I was starting to see in my own peer group, you know, people posting pictures of, like, little meals they were creating at home with tin fish, which is fascinating because I really feel like before COVID that was not a habitual thing for people to do, like, make a beautiful lunch and post about it on Instagram. So weird. Um, and obviously now it's completely ubiquitous. So all of those factors combined added with the bump. I think the canned fish category saw, like, a 10% year over year increase during the COVID 19 pandemic, which is crazy. It has not been like that since broadly. And I was like, americans deserve a better product, and I think they'll be willing to pay for it. So that was. That was really the origin of the company.
- [09:46]
Joe Weisenthal
So there's sort of like two different strains. The I'm interested in this conversation. I want to make sure to touch on both. So that's sort of the brand origin. We'll talk more about brand and marketing now. Tell us, like, and we'll get into it more. But give us the basic supply chain that you have right now of, you know, the short version of, like, where a fish is caught and the steps it takes until I get it in my kitchen. Like, give us like the. The overall sequence.
- [10:13]
Becca Milstein
I'll give you the most simple, straightforward version first, which is because the thing that you'll learn throughout this conversation is that every seafood supply chain and canned seafood supply chain is completely different and very strange. So the first I'll give an example of is our Cantabrian anchovies. So we source our anchovies from a tiny town in northern Spain called Santonia. And if you go to this town, Santonia, you will be blown away because it is completely occupied by anchovy canneries. Like, that is the town. You walk through this. This tiny city and it's like every candy anchovy brand you've ever heard of. Their logo, like, plastered on a big warehouse. So in that case, the fishermen are going out like six miles from shore. They're using the purse method of fishing, which is. It basically is like a big, big, wide net that's cast out into the top, sort of the top of the ocean. It encircles a school of fish. And then the net is sort of pulled together and the fish are brought out of the water and then immediately put on ice. And then they're brought, you know, six miles into shore and they're taken to the anchovy auction. And they are marked with a number that indicates the quality of the anchovy. So that's like the size of the anchovy. Has it been damaged? The fattiness of the anchovy? It's marked with that quality signifier. And then the bids begin. In this case, the. There's usually one or two folks from each cannery. And keep in mind, these canneries are, by and large, maybe all multigenerational family owned. So the cannery that we work with was started in the 1940s by a man who now has had three generation of offspring that have taken over his business and, you know, have. Have grown and expand is this nest. So anyway, today the grandson of this man goes to the anchovy auction and you will, you know, have a price in mind to bid on these anchovies. And he'll go buy a bunch of anchovies. And those anchovies will be taken mere three blocks away from where that auction is happening. And they'll be immediately processed, which in this case means. I mean, I'm going deep in the processing.
- [12:38]
Tracy Alloway
That's great.
- [12:38]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah, that's great.
- [12:39]
Becca Milstein
So that means that the anchovies will be basically headed and tailed. So their heads will be clipped, their tails will be Clipped and then they will be put into a barrel of rock salt in layers and they'll be left there for anywhere between 12 to 36 months. And actually the longer they're in there, the higher quality they are. That being said, three years is a very, very, very long time. So it' a really, really expensive product in a pretty limited market. Our anchovies are on average held in there from 12 to 18 months. And during that time, you know, they, they're cured and they develop all that beautiful flavor that we associate with anchovies. And then I'm going to keep going. At the end of that 12 to 18 month period, they're removed from that bucket of rock salt and they are, their skin is removed and basically like the, the beautiful little pink anchovy that we all know and love emerges from what other mice looks like are pretty normal little silver fish. Like honestly when you, when you see an anchovy for the first time, like a lot of people think they're sardines because they are these like substantial long silver fish. They're cleaned, that lovely little pink anchovy is removed and then laid one at a time in the tin that you, you know, you see when you buy a fishwave anchovy product. They're cleaned extensively, they're rinsed and washed and then they are, those cans are, are filled with extra virgin olive oil in our case and they're steamed. And then anchovies are very unique because unlike the rest of our tin fish products, they are cured through that salt curing method. So they're not actually heat treated which makes them a dramatically more sensitive product and a much shorter shelf life product than the rest of our tins. So the rest of our tins have an average of between a five to seven year shelf life, which I think you can imagine is like truly incredible to have as a food business owner. Like they're very, very few, few products with that shelf life. Anchovies only have about a year long shelf life because of that salt carrying method and they can't be exposed to heat because they'll disintegrate. So that's like the simplest supply chain and how concentrated it is. That being said, anchovies as an actual product are by far, far and away our most complex to, you know, store and manage and ship.
- [15:11]
Tracy Alloway
So you didn't have any prior fish experience before you started this company, right?
- [15:17]
Becca Milstein
I did not know I had been in the working world for about four years in the entertainment industry before starting the business.
- [15:24]
Tracy Alloway
So listening to you describe the fish Supply chain in a place like Spain. It sounds very familial and sort of close knit and probably hard to break into. Like I imagine you can't just go and find a fisherman and be like, hey, you want to be our supplier? How did you actually manage to source these particular people and start building up those relationships?
- [15:45]
Becca Milstein
That's sort of the interesting crux of this story is in cpg and you know, in emerging brand cpg it's very well known that quote unquote getting line time or getting a co man co manufacturer to work with you is very challenging because you know, who knows if you're going to be around in a couple years your product probably has a bunch of weird like better for you ingredients that the comans don't want to deal with. They would much rather work with much, much bigger companies that they can rely on to produce massive batches of whatever product you're working on. This case is a bit interesting because when I started the business I was reaching out to, you know, mostly co manufacturers, suppliers, etc. In America. And first and foremost everyone was like, why are you trying to start a canned fish business? Like the canned fish industry is declining. Why don't you do pouches? The pouch industry is booming. And I was like, that's really not the vibe I'm going for guys. Honestly, it doesn't really capture the European romantic aesthetic. So that was definitely at play. It wasn't like trying to think of another industry. I don't know, beverage, beverage is always, you know, kind of going up into the right. It wasn't like I had a bunch of other young entrepreneurs that I was competing with for this line time. And it wasn't like the category was yeah, off like a shot. It was, it was flat or in decline. So I think when we reached out to these European canneries which I started doing, you know, started with the American manufacturers I could get in touch with and then very quickly started reaching out to manufacturers in Spain and Portugal. There is this, you know, America is the biggest market in the world. Establishing a market in a foreign country is, you know, near to impossible because of all of the marketing and brand building work you have to do. That being said, it's this incredibly attractive market. There's you know, very, very affluent, really high paying customers. So I think when we reached out to these canneries, they must have seen that. They must have seen, okay, here is, you know, someone who's going to work really hard to try to build a market for this really premium product in America. And we don't then have to go do that work because again, near nearly impossible to accomplish. And we have a capacity like these, these canneries that they, they are mostly not operating at, you know, three, three shifts a day, seven days a week. Maybe they're operating at you know, one or two shifts a day for five days a week. So there was some capacity at all of these canneries that we reached out to. I think the, the crazy part for them is seeing how quickly an American business can grow because you know, as mentioned, these businesses have been around for generations. They're family owned, they're not venture backed, they're not looking to, you know, scale in a few years and exit. Like the way that we think about business in the US is just so different from how these businesses are, you know, conceiving of their own. Like if they have 5% year over year growth, that's amazing. Flat. It's fine in some cases, I don't want to generalize but like they are certainly not trying to grow 250% year over year. So I think, you know, Fishwife has been around for five and a half years now. The demand has been revealed for these products. And I think watching these partners, they maybe have been fine with 5% year over year growth. And seeing Fishwife's, you know, volume requests triple, quadruple year over year, it's like hard for them to wrap their heads around.
- [19:44]
Joe Weisenthal
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- [20:17]
Carol Massar
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- [21:23]
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- [22:23]
Joe Weisenthal
So I take it you had a few different structural opportunities because okay, at that point the sort of like premium cans were not really a category yet. The existing canneries actually did have some slack so there wasn't an intense competition to get in there. But just sort of like basically how did you for just from a business wise perspective solve that? You still have a cold start problem, you have like no customers on day one, et cetera. You have to like get some capacity. You don't really know what end demand is going to look like. I guess you, as they say in the startup world, like the zero to one question, even if it was a little easier than maybe other DTC categories, what was the actual process of going to like I've got to place an order and sell it and like the commitments that you had to make to place that order.
- [23:13]
Becca Milstein
Yeah, it's a great question. So our zero to one year was 2021 and it had a distinct supply chain from the one that we have today for the most part. So as I mentioned when I started working on the business, I was looking an open to building supply chain both in North America and And in Europe. So in the first year of the business I started working with, the first cannery we ever worked with was a tiny micro cannery in Oregon on the coast of Oregon. This is mostly servicing sports fishermen from, you know, the west coast, whether in California up to Washington. So like, we're not talking moqs here. This is people coming in, bringing their catch and saying, hey, make me, you know, 500 cans of, of tuna. So that was the first cannery. Then we started working with one in Washington state which was very similar profile. Micro cannery, super, hands on, no moq. And to be honest, what's MOQ stand for? Minimum order quantity.
- [24:10]
Joe Weisenthal
Oh, great, thank you.
- [24:11]
Becca Milstein
So. So, yeah, speaking to the issues I mentioned earlier, a huge issue that startups face is, you know, I want to start a beverage company. You need to make 50,000 units of your sparkling water grand, you know, on your first run before you have any demand, before anyone knows who the heck you are. So all in all, we didn't have an MOQ issue. We certainly didn't have it in the domestic canneries because they are so, so small. And then when we started working with our first cannery in Spain, which we still work with today, we still work with the cannery in Washington state. That MOQ is still on this smaller side. I think it was maybe 20,000 units. I think so. I think I ordered 20,000 units of our sardines with preserved leaven. And it lasted us maybe the entire year. But it was super messy. Like I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, demand planning. It was the, probably the worst thing I met in the entire company. So we like in the Oregon cannery, we went out of stock unexpectedly. We were out of stock of two products for three months. Like that is what the zero to one year looked like. It was stops, stop, starts, et cetera. But all the while, even with those stops and starts, and even with that very small amount of inventory, I was really able to build the brand that year. Like, we still got a lot of press coverage, we still got a lot of influencer coverage and you know, was able to build the brand even though the supply chain has since transformed significantly.
- [25:42]
Tracy Alloway
Well, that was going to be my, my next question. So as your business has scaled up and you know, the, from the numbers you were suggesting earlier, it sounds like it's grown very, very quickly. Has securing product become easier for you?
- [25:56]
Becca Milstein
It's become easier and harder. It's become easier because now, you know, we have 18 employees at the company and they're a Lot better at securing product than I was by myself. So that part, internal resourcing has become a lot easier. And then, you know, we did this big supply chain transformation in 2023 where we were really looking to go from that supply chain V1 that I described to you to supply chain V2 that, you know, the goal was this supply chain V2 could see us through essentially unlimited scale in the American market. So we were looking for canneries that could produce 80 million cans a year, 100 million cans a year. So that was a transformation we, we went through. And by and large we have been able to scale enormously and very, very quickly, you know, in the, in the grand scheme of things. That being said, like, I think the sardine situation is a really good example. We have seen our demand for that product go through the roof, but still essentially exponentially. And that unpredictable demand that we are sometimes faced with, which we can go into in a minute. If we want to dig into the starting situation, that is when we're presented with just challenges because those things can happen so quickly. And this is not a super fast lead time supply chain like we were trying to tell our canneries what we need a year ahead, then six months ahead, then three months ahead, placing the PO so they can really secure the raw material that we need to produce the product that we need. So I think that's, that's the tricky part of being a high growth brand in a long lead industry. Yeah, you just never know what the growth is going to look like in a year.
- [27:49]
Joe Weisenthal
Well, I'm glad you got to the sardine part because there was one thing that I want, I meant to say in the intro, one other thing that piqued my interest in this whole story is that on Instagram. So I have a really like messed up Instagram feed and algorithm on Instagram. I get served a lot of B2B ads for Chinese sardine manufacturing facilities. Who on the ad itself say, are you dealing with the Moroccan sardine shortage, source your canned sardines from China, etc. Which I thought was like really fascinating to me. Talk about. So you're like getting to like, okay, you're 80, 100 million units. You know, up until again five years ago, this was not a high growth category. I imagine for years and years you have the emergence of these very inexpensive canneries in China, but also, I believe Vietnam and Thailand and elsewhere. Prior to companies like you entering the market, was there sort of this shrinking of the industrial capacity in the types of places that you want to source from in say Europe or maybe you know, parts of the US that was shrinking due to this sort of global deindustrialization phenomenon. And has that contributed to today now that it is a high growth category, or at least for you, it's a category that there are, you know, that's constricted, that it's constrained because of the sort of years of like hollowing out from global competition.
- [29:22]
Becca Milstein
Yeah, I mean, I think it's the same stories as like all American manufacturing stories. There were once booming canneries on either coast of the US In California, probably Red Cannery Row or in, on the coast of Maine there were these bigger, more industrial canneries and a combination of factors contributed to those shutting down. Basically like most canneries in the US shut down like 15 years ago. Today there are this, this is an estimate, but I would say like 5ish in the lower 48 and then probably several more in Alaska. Alaska is where you would find some of the bigger, more industrial canneries that are doing like commodity Alaskan canned salmon, et cetera. But yeah, I think due to a combination of factors, I know that there were really stringent FDA rules that were put in place about 15 years ago that a lot of the canneries in the US couldn't upkeep, couldn't manage. Some of the fisheries really declined. So the Pacific sardine and anchovy fisheries, there have been moments of real decline on, on both the, the east and west coast. And with the decline of those fisheries and the shutting down of those fisheries, the canneries followed because obviously, and then having this very cheap processing available in various parts of Asia, so much of the processing moved over there, like you were saying, with the Alaskan processing that you see in China. So it's a, it's a common story and it definitely is, is what happened in the U.S. sorry, just to be
- [30:57]
Tracy Alloway
clear, the Moroccan sardine situation, it's not that you can't can sardines in Morocco, it's that's where the sardines themselves are caught and then exported to the canning places in it seem mostly Spain and maybe Portugal. Is that right?
- [31:16]
Becca Milstein
That is, that is correct. There. There are certainly canneries and cannery infrastructure in Morocco. But so much of the, of the raw material from the Moroccan sardine fishery was being exported to Spain. I think it was like 90% of the raw material in Spanish canneries of sardines was coming from Morocco. So no, they have the canning infrastructure. And I think what we're seeing here is that they are preserving the raw material for their own exports because the ban is just on frozen sardine exports, not canned sardine exports. So Morocco is protecting its raw material and is able to maintain its industry. It's very meaningful, large industry of exporting canned sardines.
- [32:07]
Tracy Alloway
So has that affected fishwife Personally?
- [32:10]
Becca Milstein
I guess it has, but not in the ways you would necessarily suspect because we have never sourced from the Moroccan sardine fishery. We have been sourcing from the Cornish sardine fishery for about five years. That at the time that we started selling sardine Cornish, so Cornish, sorry, England, it was the only MSC Marine Stewardship Council certified sustainable fishery in Europe at the time. Then MSC is the most globally recognized certifying body for wild fisheries and it's the one that fishwife goes by. So we were sourcing from this Cornish sardine fishery and then the Iberian sardine fishery was actually MSC certified I believe last year. And so we started sourcing from that fishery as well, which is really exciting. So we're sourcing from these two MSC certified fisheries now the only certified sustainable fish sardin fisheries in Europe. So we weren't affected in terms of our raw material supply being impacted. That being said, with, you know, so much inventory disappearing from the market, we saw our sardine sales starting in, I would say December of last year, like start to go coohoo bananas. I think it was kind of first 2-3x the velocities that we had been seeing before. And it has sustained and gone even up to, you know, 4 or 5x, which is massive. So, you know, getting calls from buyers that are retailers saying, hey, like my sardine shelf is completely wiped out. Can you step up and step in and, and supply us with sardines? And you know, I remember having this conversation with my, with my head of sales was like, we can do it. We're gonna have to air freight the product in order to get it there in time. We usually try to send things by slow ship, which is the most economical, also the most environmentally sustainable. And we had to make the hard decision of okay, are we okay with our gross margin being compressed by these air shipments? As you can imagine, they are extremely expensive. In order to capture the demand, maybe introduce new customers to fish wife sardines. We did make that choice many, many times over for many retailers. And it's just been so much demand for the sardines that we just haven't seen go down. I think the crazy thing is we also saw this huge trend around sardines also picking up at the Same time I.
- [34:43]
Tracy Alloway
So I was going to say, in the course of my due diligence for this podcast, I went on the Canned Sardines subreddit, a very active subreddit, and there were a few people complaining about they couldn't find sardines at their, like, local. Local Trader Joe's or anything like that. And there were a bunch of posts also extolling the health benefits of sardines and making me think that maybe, maybe I need to try them.
- [35:07]
Joe Weisenthal
No, I think just from a health perspective, canned fish is just like a great way to get some protein. I put it in salads. Like put canned tuna in a salad or something like that. I. I'm a big. I'm a big. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a big advocate. First of all, I find it interesting that actually people evidently are. They want sardines so bad they're willing to, like, trade up. So, like, some, like, market goes away and then they'll go to the premium. But I want to talk a little bit more about, like, you know, when I think of the DTC brands that truly, like, grew up in the age of, like, the golden age of Instagram, like the 2010s, you know, it seemed like the big opportunity was find a product that's very expensive. Let's say like a Warby Parker. You know, you don't really need to pay $350 for a pair of Luxottica glasses. We could build this for $20. We'll spend $10 on advertising, and then we'll sell the product for $100. I'm just making up these numbers, and then we make $70 in profit. And it feels like there were just tons of companies and they came out of business school and stuff like that. And they all identified all of these opportunities to find something that was premium and then, like, make a commodified version, cut out the middleman, do some good branding, make it a little glossy, put it on Instagram, etc. It feels like this is the kind of the exact opposite where you have to invent a new category that doesn't really exist. Is this in part just like a function of, like, the changing. I'm interested, like the media marketplace, such as that playbook. Like now if you started the Warby Parker, Rather than paying $20 for the Instagram ad, you'd pay 79 and left with a dollar margin or something like that. And that you actually have to, like, do something totally different in order to build a DTC brand in the 2000s.
- [36:53]
Becca Milstein
Yeah. I need to be clear. DTC makes up about 20% of our business. So it is, it is a minority channel for us.
- [37:00]
Joe Weisenthal
All right.
- [37:00]
Becca Milstein
Even though it is incredibly, incredibly important for Fish Wave. But it's certainly not the business that we're like building our economics around. You know, food businesses. You're gonna build in, in retail. Like that is where the volume is. That being said, I think, I mean, doesn't totally answer your question, but like people want really quality products and people are willing to pay for them. I think that's what we've seen. Yeah, I think it's some crazy stat. Like 50% of the spending right now is being done by like, I don't know, like 5% of our population. Something crazy like that. People are just willing to pay for a much higher quality product. First of all, I think a lot of us were honestly burned with, with some of those D2C brands where they're touting themselves as a, as a low, as a lower cost but equally high quality version as the like sort of traditional, like whatever, lake cruise, whatever, you know, and maybe that didn't turn out to be the case for a lot of them. I know I bought a bed frame from one of these companies and by God it was worth $800 I ever spent.
- [38:05]
Joe Weisenthal
Can I just make a plug for a brand though? I just like they did something good. And so I just feel like like 10 or 11 years ago we bought a, an away suitcase and it like started breaking down recently and the zipper broke. They replaced it for free. And so like Even I was 10 years old, so I was like a pretty like. I think it was probably a marginally less quality product than whatever the incumbent suitcase company was at the time. But they, but I was pretty surprised they actually replaced a broken suitcase.
- [38:33]
Becca Milstein
I'm right there with you. I own three away suitcases and they're amazing. There's exceptions to the rule every time. And I think with, with Fish Wife it's like, no, we're selling a super high quality product made by multi generational European family owned canneries. Like it just is as good as it should be and needs to be. And we're not like doing any highfalutin new age stuff. I'm attracted to that. I think other people are attracted to that. Just knowing like this truly is the, just the highest quality product. We're not, we're not cutting corners here to make a cheaper, cheaper product.
- [39:23]
Carol Massar
This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Now with ChatGPT Work. I'm Carol Massar. Door DoorDash, the largest food delivery company in the U.S. is building its own delivery drones and has gained the necessary FAA approvals to operate them commercially. The latest in its effort to delegate more orders to robots as a way of cutting delivery times, Bloomberg's Natalie Leung reports. The company says it has been conducting pilot programs with various restaurants, some of which have seen their order volume grow during the test period. The effort this marks an expansion of DoorDash's in house robotics efforts to reduce reliance on human couriers for some orders, as their wages constitute a key expense to the business. Drones are also a way for DoorDash to cut delivery times on orders from more remote locations that some dashers may not want. That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started as@chatgpt.com today by selecting work mode available on plus and Pro plans.
- [40:30]
Optum Advertiser
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- [41:30]
Tracy Alloway
industries evolve faster than ever, companies need an environment that accelerates strategic growth and Michigan delivers on that promise. From emerging startups to global enterprise, Michigan offers what executives value most a resilient,
- [41:43]
Becca Milstein
innovative ecosystem, diverse communities that attract top
- [41:47]
Tracy Alloway
talent, and a quality of life that supports work. Life balance with our unified T Michigan approach, businesses scale faster and compete at the highest level. Michigan Pure Opportunity Seize your opportunity@MichiganBusiness.org Joe. You should make a way pay for their advertising.
- [42:04]
Joe Weisenthal
I know it was such a free giveaway, but all right, it did happen Away.
- [42:09]
Tracy Alloway
Okay. Away from personal brand preferences and just going back to the sardines for a second. So there are a bunch of different, like, themes that I, or keywords that I hear here. So one is more demand for sardines. Sardines are having a moment. The other one is climate change. And we talked about the shortage of plankton due to potentially warmer waters. We've also been hearing about overfishing for ages and ages and ages. And you often see these competing headlines where, you know, people will say the world's fish population is in danger, and then two months later it's like, oh, no, we figured out more sustainable ways of fishing and this demand is. Or the supply is resilient and all of that. When you look at the sardine shortage, which of those factors matters the most to you in, you know, the current moment?
- [42:56]
Becca Milstein
I think as a headline, the frustrating thing about seafood sustainability is that it is endlessly nuanced and it's changing constantly. So even with the sardine, the Moroccan sardine situation, they started to see a decline in the catch in 2023. It was about, it was down about 46%. That's only three years ago. Like fisheries science moves somewhat slowly. Doing assessments of fisheries takes a really long time. So tldr, everything that's being talked about, all of the theories that you mentioned, Tracy, are just that they're theories and they're also like contributing factors to, you know, a much bigger picture that probably all of them are contributing, not a single one. And it's hard to tell to what degree just contributing. So I'll like speak to these, these theories that are, that are currently in the conversation.
- [43:51]
Tracy Alloway
Sure.
- [43:51]
Becca Milstein
So the first that seems most likely is climate change generally. So there are warming waters in the mid Atlantic that forage fish, like sardines, like anchovies, like mackerel, are very, very sensitive to water changes. So when the water temperature changes, they are likely to migrate to colder waters. So it might not even be that there are less sardines. It might simply be that the sardines have migrated somewhere that the commercial fishermen have a lot of difficulty accessing. It could be deeper in the water, it could be further in the water. They are just. They're in a new location and it's not where the fishermen are used to catching. So that seems to be the most likely theory. Warmer waters can also trigger, like, unexpected changes in the food web. Obviously, everything in the ocean is connected. And when water temperature changes, it can mean also there are more predators that are actively catching fishing. Fishing in the area. So like you said, Tracy, humans are not the only ones that are catching sardines. So are tuna and other fish. So there might just be more active predators in the area. There's also the, the plankton theory, which I think a lot of people are writing about, which is that the warmer water has triggered maybe less or less nutrient dense, fatty, caloric hate. A skinny plankton absolutely hate, hate when you get served one of those. But those can lead to, you know, leaner, less fatty sardines, which are the ones that, that folks are looking to catch. So there are all these factors in combination, definitely all tied up in climate change. Hard to know which is contributing the most. I think one thing that's interesting in this circumstances, from what I can tell, like overfishing is not, not the main culprit. So I mentioned MSC earlier. That is, you know, the, the certifying body that we most lean on and look to the Monterey Bay Aquarium seafood watch, but a mouthful. They're also a very globally respected certifying body and they're the ones that have given. I think this fishery currently has a yellow rating, which is not bad. But basically their assessment is that the fishery is being well regulated, strong enforcement is in place, which leads me to believe that it's less of an overfishing and more of a, of a climate climate issue. I think one thing that's really, really important to highlight is that when you see, you know, this is not a fishery shutdown situation, this is a like, you know, frozen starting, export ban situation. But when you do see, you know, a market being capped on a fishery, it seems a little bit scary. But that's actual responsible fisheries management. In practice that means that, you know, everyone's coming together and saying, hey, we're not seeing the amount of fish that we expected to see or not seeing the size of fish that we expected to find. We need to shut down the fishing season and allow the fishery to repopulate itself. And I think the amazing thing is there are so, so many examples of there being, you know, decline in catch fisheries shutting down for between like three to five years and in the span of that time fully becoming certified sustainable again, AKA able to fully repopulate and sustain themselves year over year. So I think that's really important for people to understand is like, don't freak out when you see, when you see those empty shelves, like be happy that like people are, are putting these restrictions into place.
- [47:55]
Joe Weisenthal
Do you get inbound business inquiries from companies that are probably marginally or somewhat below your standards like canneries in China, etc. Or there's like, look, you can say you might like your inbox flooded with different B2B suppliers at different parts of the supply chain offering yourself.
- [48:13]
Becca Milstein
Definitely. I would say no, my, more like my LinkedIn is flooded with that. I feel like somehow they're still not getting my email, by and large. Or maybe they're going straight to my spam. But yes, I don't spend that much time looking at them if I'm, if I'm being honest.
- [48:29]
Tracy Alloway
What's happened to your own sardine pricing in this environment? Because as I understand it, you know, you have this premium product which already is at a higher price point than some other equivalents. Does it go up further if people are, you know, struggling to find tin cans on the shelves of Trader Joe's or something like that?
- [48:49]
Becca Milstein
I do think that we expect our, our sardine prices to go up. It's like an active conversation again. All this is happening so quickly, but I think we can only assume that we will see, and we will see prices go up as, as the two fisheries that we're sourcing from become more and more competitive.
- [49:09]
Tracy Alloway
Then the other thing I want to ask again, as a non fish lover, will fish consumers, do they trade to other types of fish if they can't get sardines?
- [49:20]
Becca Milstein
Yes, they do. I don't know if I have really good data to share on it, but we are definitely seeing folks come in, in retail, online, starting with one species and then over time expanding to the rest of ours. It's a really good question. I would say like, maybe not anchovies, because anchovies generally aren't looked at as like the protein replacement in your meal. But between sardines, mackerel, tuna, salmon, trout, we're definitely seeing trading between species.
- [49:49]
Joe Weisenthal
So obviously like to maintain a sort of valuable brand, you have to maintain the brand itself. Here is a question I've always wanted to ask someone this. You know, we live in this age of brand collabs, right? It'll be like, oh, like Lululemon is dropping a new limited edition with like Kraft Heinz macaroni and cheese. Like, you know, yoga gear. Like limited supply that to be. Yeah, yeah. So like, I know you'd like done some, you know, with like the olive oil company, et cetera. Are brand collabs really brand collabs? Like, okay, we're gonna send three employees of yours and three of them are gonna figure something out. Or is it like someone comes up with an idea and someone else writes a check and then they like co brand a post on Instagram.
- [50:30]
Becca Milstein
Oh my gosh, they're so the former. I have never done anything like what you're describing with the second. I'm like, to my detriment. These collabs are like so, so, so in depth and we spend so many months on them. Yeah, we're about to have two huge collabs come out. One is coming out tomorrow with Whole Foods. We're doing a collaborative series of totes which they've never done with any brand before. There were no dollars exchanged. We've been working on it for, you know, six months and we're about to have. I can share another one. It comes out after August 11th. Like these collabs are so not pay to play in any way at all. Like our Fly by Jing product collab, which is a very popular one. It's just, you know, we buy their sauce at a wholesale price, we put it in our products and like that's it. It's just super clean, classic ingredient purchasing.
- [51:25]
Joe Weisenthal
Then the other brand related question I have, rather than take DTC to describe the broader thing, is like de novo brands. Right. Coming out of nowhere. It's et cetera. And so, you know, over the years, I think the ones that grew up in the 2000 and tens like paid an increasing like Instagram tax. Right. To maintain that brand. I notice on your website you actually have a thing where influencers can email. They're like, oh, like I will post about Fish Wife and then you like arrange some deal with them. Is that there are so many influencers out there and there's so many wannabe influencers. Do you feel that from your perspective you have good options or are the influencers that you actually want to work with because they're aligned with your aesthetic and brand? Do they grow and grow their capacity to like, is there real scarcity of the types of influencers that you would actually want to work with rather than just ones that have a high follower count?
- [52:20]
Becca Milstein
I don't feel there is scarcity at all. I think Fishwave has a unique relationship with the influencer landscape because we really don't do any pay to play. Like every once in a while we'll have an influencer make some content and obviously we're going to compensate them for their content and then add a bump, bump on top for their audience if it's like a collaborative post. But like we really have done it less than 10 times in our life. So I think, you know, we're lucky
- [52:50]
Joe Weisenthal
because you do have like, you have this affiliate program thing on your website and it says get paid when you share about Fish Wife.
- [52:56]
Becca Milstein
That's the, you know, commission based program. Different than a flat fee. Like I think basically to pay influencers flat fees to post on their Instagram, there can be truly like astronomical rates. I've been quoted, you know, $40,000, $30,000 for someone with let's say like 800,000 followers. Like, we simply can't afford that. So, you know, we have this affiliate program, Influencers earn commission. Something that we have always invested in seeding, making sure that we're getting product in their hands. But yeah, there is kind of like a huge leap between a commission based program and like paying a flat fee, which a lot of them are very, very high.
- [53:40]
Tracy Alloway
Just going back to the supply chain for a second. So packaging is obviously very important to Fish Wife. You've got the branding aspect, but you also have the tins themselves. Everything's coming in a tin. Have you been impacted at all in recent months by, you know, tariffs on things like aluminum packaging and stuff like that?
- [54:01]
Becca Milstein
The tariffs on aluminum packaging we haven't seen like directly impact our business. First of all, we're not taking ownership of those our canneries buy. I see, okay, the tins. And we, we haven't seen like a meaningful increase. We've seen it in the course of our five, five years of being a business that tin prices have gone up, aluminum prices have gone up. But as of late, especially in regards to tariffs, that has not been the biggest hit. Like, we have had tariffs applied to the products that we're importing from Europe. Those have an impact on the business and are not ideal. Europe has a 15% tariff right now that was put in place in April 2025. And it sucks. It's like millions and millions of dollars. We got refunded a million and a half dollars last month, which was great. I showed up in the bank account.
- [54:54]
Tracy Alloway
But now you'll have new tariffs.
- [54:56]
Becca Milstein
We now have new tariffs. And that 1 million F is not even, you know, it's a percentage of what we have paid in tariffs. We've always dealt with tariffs. Like there has been a 35% import duty on tuna pact and olive oil since we started importing that product. And the tariffs don't stack. So like for example, our, our tuna olive oil, when the tariff curtain fell, like, we, we didn't increase and we didn't experience incremental tariffs. But no, it sucks. It definitely like it hits gross margin and it's just feels really stupid. So I wish that we didn't have to pay those millions.
- [55:33]
Tracy Alloway
I got a tariff refund recently which I didn't really understand because I thought only businesses were receiving that. But I got it for like $7.14.
- [55:42]
Joe Weisenthal
That's fantastic.
- [55:43]
Becca Milstein
Congratulations.
- [55:44]
Tracy Alloway
Thanks, thanks.
- [55:45]
Joe Weisenthal
You create a new category that's very pre, at least in the U.S. right? You create this new category of like premium Tin Fish and then others, and I think you sort of alluded to this, then others discover it. You might get other startups or I could imagine, but I actually didn't do any research on this particular question. I could imagine that what you might get, and I think you see this is you have some existing company that is known for their commodity version and then they'll come up with their equivalent of like the Starbucks reserve and they'll make a label that's probably like kind of a knockoff of a, you know, a Fish Wife label or something similar or other company will expand, will do a tin fish line. They'll see the opportunity that you have found. And I'm curious, like you mentioned that there was a fair degree of slack in some of these cannery canneries and say 20, 21, where they're not doing three shifts a day, seven days a week. Do you see, your demand aside, more scarcity at the cannery level from companies essentially one way or another trying to get a share of your market?
- [56:48]
Becca Milstein
I would see where, where we're seeing scarcity, it's mostly because of the volume from Fish Wife.
- [56:53]
Joe Weisenthal
Oh, interesting.
- [56:54]
Becca Milstein
Not to brag. But growing so much so quickly, that's what we're seeing, you know, sort of constraints is that we're taking up so much more canning line than we, we thought we would be and they thought we would be in the span of two years. Yeah, I think it's. We are lucky to have established like a couple modes. I think people are willing to pay for Fishwife because it is a really, really high quality product and because we have been able to tell the story of why it is a high quality product over the past five and a half years. We built the brand online, which, you know, hadn't never happened in the, in the canvas category before. So it's a big leap to pay what you have to pay for a Fishwife product and to earn that pricing power, I think is very challenging, to be quite honest, and takes a ton of brand building work. Like yes, the product has to taste truly amazing to get people to buy it and come back and come back and come back. But that brand building Work is very difficult to replicate. And then I think as you're seeing here, like you have to be extremely agile on your feet. In terms of supply chain. Like, it is not. No business is easy to run, no global supply chain is easy to run and definitely seafood is not. So, you know, we've seen new entrants come into the category, but honestly, in terms of like categories that clearly have heat, I would say ours has had less meaningful new entrants than many.
- [58:25]
Tracy Alloway
Sorry, one more sourcing question. And again, as a non fish person, I don't really get a lot of these distinctions, but I'm looking at some of your smoked salmon, smoked salmon with Fly by Jing chili crisp, which sounds really good. I need to try it sounds good. It says that the salmon comes from. It's farm salmon, not wild caught. How do you make the decision between wild caught and farmed and what are the distinctions? I don't, I never really understood this.
- [58:53]
Becca Milstein
I would say it started as a little bit of a happen stance of trying to figure out supply chain and I really, really struggled to stand up a wild Alaskan salmon supply chain. I just like could not get in touch with the canneries. I would get in touch with one like one supplier, one other supplier and they were sourcing different species of salmon and they didn't want to, didn't want them to mix. Like I could not figure out how to scale it. Farm salmon makes up between 70 to 80% of the salmon that we're eating globally. Like if you're eating salmon, odds are you're eating farm salmon. It is a much, much more manageable supply chain. First of all, there's so much of it and it freezes really well. It travels really, really well. And you are not having to deal with seasonal purchasing which as you can imagine, you know, can necessitate the outlay of enormous amounts of cash with farms they are producing throughout the year. Harvesting, harvesting throughout the year. So it's a much, it's a much less lumpy cash outlay which makes it just a much easier supply chain to navigate. There are fluctuations in pricing for farm salmon for sure, but slightly less volatile than wild.
- [60:07]
Tracy Alloway
I think we're going to leave it there. But thank you so much for answering all of our fish related questions, Becca. Really appreciate it.
- [60:14]
Becca Milstein
Really a pleasure to really, really get into it. I appreciate the opportunity.
- [60:32]
Tracy Alloway
So there's a lot to pick out from that conversation. I mean, I hadn't. Again, I don't think about salmon that often, but I hadn't realized that. Yeah, if you're, if you're doing wild caught salmon and you can only buy at certain times of the year, then you are going to lay out like a huge amount of money because everyone's trying to do the same thing at the same time.
- [60:49]
Joe Weisenthal
No, it totally makes sense that it would be as the tech exists to farm salmon, that that would be a lot more appealing and you get all kinds of stability and stuff like that. I don't, I really enjoyed that conversation. There's so many, like, interesting strands there. I think it's interesting that, like, it's, you know, so you, you see a headline like the catch in Morocco is down significantly, and you're like, and how that, like, we might not actually fully have the answers that like, you know, people are trying to piece together, oh, maybe it's something to do with the plankton, maybe it's something to do with overfishing, maybe it's something to do with water temperature, et cetera, that we don't really know.
- [61:27]
Tracy Alloway
Well, I also find the connection there really interesting because, like, okay, something might be happening in the waters off Moroc. Maybe they're warming up, maybe the plankton aren't as fat or as bountiful as they used to be. But suddenly that becomes not just Morocco's problem, but another country's problem in the form of Spain. So it seems like the Moroccan sardine export ban is now becoming a diplomatic issue with the Spanish because now there are attempts to get to, for Spain to take Morocco to the negotiating table and actually get them to like, call off the export ban.
- [61:59]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah, it's wild. And the fact that like, there is actually quite a big market for trading up. I mean, I guess like, if you need sardine, you need sardine and another fish isn't going to work. And so the idea that, like, okay, now there is suddenly, you know, even if it's like a very different supply chain at first, that the impairment of the sort of commodity supply chain will invariably affect the premium supply chain.
- [62:23]
Tracy Alloway
I honestly think the trading up phenomenon when it comes to food inflation is a real thing.
- [62:28]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah.
- [62:28]
Tracy Alloway
So, you know, people are thinking, well, if I'm going to have to pay $20 for a pack of ground beef, I might as well spend $30 and get some steaks or something like that. In fact, I had that conversation with a woman in a supermarket the other day also. Can I just say, I know, I just spent the whole episode talking about how I don't like fish.
- [62:46]
Joe Weisenthal
Yes.
- [62:46]
Tracy Alloway
But I was at a dinner party last weekend and a former teak wood supplier who we should get on the podcast. He's now an organic farmer. He made candied salmon.
- [62:59]
Joe Weisenthal
Oh yeah, that's really good.
- [63:00]
Tracy Alloway
And it was so good. I've never had it before and it was actually delicious. I ate the whole thing.
- [63:03]
Joe Weisenthal
No, that is. That's really tasty. So that's a good entree into like, maybe more exploration on your part in the fish world. There's all kinds of fish that theoretically you might like.
- [63:13]
Tracy Alloway
I like a lot of stuff. I like sea urchin. I love raw sea urchin. I love oysters. I love a lot of that stuff. But I don't know, just like cooked fish.
- [63:20]
Joe Weisenthal
No, I get it.
- [63:21]
The Hartford Advertiser
I get it.
- [63:21]
Tracy Alloway
Anyway, should we leave it there?
- [63:22]
Joe Weisenthal
Let's leave it there.
- [63:23]
Tracy Alloway
This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me Racyalloway and I'm Joe Weisenthal.
- [63:30]
Joe Weisenthal
You can follow me at the Stalwart, follow Becca Milstein on Instagram @BMilstein. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks Kale Brooks and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano.
- [63:44]
Tracy Alloway
And for more Odd Lots content, you should check out our daily newsletter. You can find that@bloomberg.com oddlots and you
- [63:50]
Joe Weisenthal
can chat about all of these topics 24. 7 in our Discord, Discord GG oddlots
- [63:55]
Tracy Alloway
and if you enjoy odd lots, if you want to see us do more food episodes or even more seafood episodes, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg Channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.
- [64:49]
Becca Milstein
Support is available 24. 7 with Verbo Care. We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help, because a great trip starts with the right support
- [65:02]
The Hartford Advertiser
when you're running a business, the best days are the ones where priorities stay on track. For midsize and large companies, risk can affect multiple parts of the organization at once, from property and liability to cyber and regulatory challenges. At that level, managing risk becomes an ongoing discipline. At the Hartford, the focus is on helping businesses manage risk before it turns into something more disruptive. And when losses do happen, that work is paired with insurance coverage shaped by years of underwriting, risk engineering and claims experience. Learn more@thehartford.com riskmitigation policies provided by Hartford Fire Insurance Company and its property and casualty affiliates, Hartford, Connecticut.
- [65:43]
4imprint Advertiser
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