Odd Lots/Bloomberg Businessweek: “Everybody's Business: The Business of KPop Demon Hunters”

Air date: September 7, 2025
Hosts: Max Chafkin & Stacey Vanek Smith
Featured Guests: Joe Weisenthal (Odd Lots), Sam Sanders (The Sam Sanders Show)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into three central themes, all united by the concept of “situationships”—entities and relationships that are unstable, undefined, or in flux. The episodes’ key explorations include the legal and economic chaos surrounding U.S. tariffs (with a focus on the uncertainty for markets and businesses), the AI revolution as seen by students and experts, and the surprising blockbuster business of “KPop Demon Hunters,” Netflix’s breakout animated hit. The show is laced with pop culture references, lighthearted banter, and pointed economic observations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Situationships in Economics and Policy (00:41–06:28)

• Theme Setting: Stacey defines “situationships” as “a relationship that’s kind of messy, not entirely defined, a source of a lot of drama.” Max and Stacey connect this to the uncertainty and drama in today’s economic climate—especially around U.S. tariffs, AI, and even the pumpkin spice latte economy.
• AI ‘Situationship’: At the heart of this week’s episode is the ambiguous relationship between companies, workers, and AI—“the ultimate situationship in our economy right now, at least this week.” (02:17, C)

2. AI on Campus: Student Voices & Skepticism (02:32–06:28)

• Student Views on AI: Stacey interviews Columbia and NYU students about their use of AI. Notably, most students use it for light editing or research but caution against blindly trusting it:
  • “Take AI with a grain of salt... always double check, honestly.” (03:23)
  • “I don’t trust gen AI on super deep academic stuff yet.” (02:59)
  • One notable moment: Stacey slips in an actual chatbot’s (ChatGPT) answer—“AI is the greatest cheat code for college. I’m not even kidding.” (03:38)—and Max briefly wonders if she’s interviewed a robot.
• Skepticism from AI Experts: “The biggest AI haters are AI experts... because they actually understand the limitations of these technologies.” (05:09, B)
• Tech Adoption Insights: The “youngs” (young people) are more comfortable with AI, but also more critical and aware of its flaws than older users.

3. Deep Dive: Tariff Turmoil & Market Reactions with Joe Weisenthal (06:28–22:43)

A. Tariff “Situationship”: Legality and Market Uncertainty (06:28–15:19)

• Tariff Legal Uncertainty: Trump imposed “Liberation Day” tariffs using the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA). Now, their legality is questioned; the Supreme Court may invalidate them.
  • If overturned, “all the tariffs were invalidated and the US would have to refund the money it’s collected so far. It would be a mess.” (07:50, C)
• Markets Hate Uncertainty: “There probably is some truth to the idea that policy uncertainty is not great for the market and this would clearly reinject... policy uncertainty.” (09:31, D)
  • Trump claims, “the stock market needs the tariffs, they want the tariffs” (09:01, E/B), prompting Max to question if there’s any truth to it.
• Short- and Long-Term Mess: Removing tariffs = legal, logistical, and economic confusion for businesses and the government.

B. The Real Market Drivers & “Uncharted Territory” (09:31–22:43)

• Stock Market Thriving Despite Tariffs: The market is dominated by “gigantic tech companies... an industry and space largely unaffected by the tariffs.” (10:07, D)
• Federal Revenue Worries: Tariffs generate significant government revenue. If lost (due to legal action), there’s anxiety about “the fiscal equilibrium.” (10:51, D)
• Institutions in Crisis:
  • “A lot of institutional arrangements which had been perceived to be stable are perceived to be less stable.” (18:43, D)
  • Discusses the weird “situationship” where TikTok is technically illegal but the ban isn’t enforced, forecasting greater instability if similar chaos spreads to tariffs.
• Tariff Persistence & Path Dependency:
  • “The longer these tariffs exist... the more likely it is that they will exist forever... any company that is making domestic investments predicated on the existence of tariffs—that company is a perpetual lobbyist for the existence...” (15:19, D)
• Bond Markets React: Elevated bond yields reflect political and institutional risk, not just direct tariff effects.

C. Memorable Musical Analogy (21:04–22:43)

• Stacey invokes The Clash: “‘Should I stay or should I go’—if [tariffs] stay in place there’s going to be trouble, if they go away it’ll be double.” (21:33, C)
• Joe Weisenthal: “We sort of arrive at these forks in the road and we’d sort of want them never to be resolved because neither of the resolutions seem great.” (21:40, D)
• Tone: Light, sardonic, referencing “uncharted territory” and investor anxiety.

4. KPop Demon Hunters: The Surprise Blockbuster & Streaming Revolution (23:37–36:51)

A. How a Netflix Animated Film Became a Global Hit (23:50–28:39)

• Movie of the Summer: “KPop Demon Hunters” (animated musical) became Netflix’s cultural juggernaut, outpacing traditional box office hits and breaking into Spotify’s top global music charts.
• Sam Sanders’ Take: “It really surprised everybody—it surprised Sony, it surprised Netflix and I think that says a lot about how most executives in the entertainment industry actually don’t know anything.” (26:23, E)
• Business Model Shift: Netflix’s streaming success with this film (and bundled music impact) is changing how profitability and ‘hit-making’ are measured: “Whatever hard number [Netflix] give you about this movie, it’s less about that and more about winning the conversation and being seen as the biggest... streamer.” (28:29, E)

B. Why Nobody in Hollywood Saw It Coming (28:39–36:44)

• Collapse of Theater-First Model: Moviegoing is way down; studios bet on existing IP, but original hits like “KPop Demon Hunters” can break through via streaming.
  • “Only about 12% of Americans now go to the movies at least once a month... about a quarter... don’t go at all.” (29:21, E)
• Sony-Netflix Deal: Pre-pandemic deal gave Netflix all rights in exchange for a flat fee; Sony saw little upside from the mega-hit. “Even when Netflix put [the film] in theaters for a weekend... Sony... saw none of that money.” (31:31, E)
• Moviegoing ↔ Opera Comparison: Sam Sanders: “Moviegoing in the classical sense... is going the way of opera.” (34:15, E)
• Need for Originality: Sanders warns Hollywood that reliance on sequels and IP has diminishing returns; “They’re gonna have to start taking chances again because the trough they’re feeding from is going to run dry.” (35:46, E)

C. Notable Quotes

• Sam Sanders (33:13, E): “I think that moviegoing does a lot for social and cultural adhesion... But I think the trend lines are inevitable... It’s going the way of opera.”
• Stacey (29:02, C): “Why does nobody know nothing right now?”

5. Pumpkin Spice Tariffs and The Price of Nostalgia (37:00–41:20)

• Pumpkin Spice Latte Economics:
  • “Pumpkin spice season has launched... it is an economic force... visits to Starbucks go up by 24% in pumpkin spice season.” (37:46, C)
  • Prices for PSLs have risen ~70% since 2005, now approaching $7–8 (39:02, C).
  • Key Insight: All primary spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves) are imported and hit by tariffs—raising costs.
• Wider Impact: “Pumpkin spice inflation alone... is going to reverberate earthquake style through the economy.” (40:56, C)
• Tariffs in Everyday Life: Max: “You don’t have to argue about it, you can just look at the prices... the prices don’t really lie.” (39:45, B)

6. Listener Feedback & AI Skepticism (41:20–45:20)

• Emails Highlight:
  • AI critics among listeners describe its resource use and lack of real added value.
  • ML engineer listener: “Although [hosts] don’t always agree with Ed’s approach... he’s right about the fundamental disconnect between hype and reality... the ROI is highly suspect.” (42:59, B)
• Max’s AI stance: “Everyone should be an AI skeptic, especially if you’re a journalist.” (43:52, B)
• Ongoing Invitation: Listeners are encouraged to contribute stories and thoughts, especially on AI and media.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joe Weisenthal on Tariff Instability (18:43, D):
  “A lot of institutional arrangements which had been perceived to be stable are perceived to be less stable... once again the Fed is a part of that and could have a factor in the degree of payment you want in order to keep your money in dollars long term.”
• Sam Sanders on Streaming’s Transformation (28:29, E):
  “Whatever hard number they give you about this movie, it’s less about that and more about winning the conversation and being seen as the biggest baddest best streamer.”
• Stacey on PSL Tariffs (39:36, C):
  “All these spices, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves... we do not grow them in the U.S... the places where the spices come from are all being hit by tariffs.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:41 — Theme intro: “situationships” explained
• 02:32 — Student interviews on AI; chatbot cameo
• 06:28 — Tariff uncertainty, legal jeopardy, and market dynamics
• 09:01 — Trump’s claim: “the stock market needs the tariffs”
• 10:51 — Tariffs as a revenue stream for the Treasury, fiscal worries
• 15:19 — Tariffs’ permanence, path dependency, and lobbying
• 18:43 — Institutional instability: Fed, TikTok ban, U.S. governance
• 21:33 — The Clash analogy: “Should I Stay or Should I Go” (Tariffs)
• 23:37 — KPop Demon Hunters: premise, impact, surprise success
• 26:59 — Explaining Netflix/Sony’s deal and the economics
• 34:15 — Sam Sanders: Moviegoing is “going the way of opera”
• 39:02 — Pumpkin spice latte inflation and tariff impact
• 41:27 — Listener feedback: AI skepticism and hype vs. reality

Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode deftly connects the granular (tariffs on cinnamon) to the macro (political and institutional instability), layered with fresh reporting and cultural commentary. Listeners keenly interested in how global economic uncertainty, policy flux, and digital disruption reverberate from Wall Street to movie streaming—and even to their local Starbucks—will find this episode both lively and illuminating.