How to Make Money Selling Pizza in New York City

Summary

Odd Lots Podcast Summary: "How to Make Money Selling Pizza in New York City"

Release Date: August 2, 2025
Hosts: Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway
Guests: James Shields, Alex Xianopoulos, and Evan Xenopoulos

---

Introduction: Navigating NYC's Pizza Landscape

In this engaging episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots, hosts Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway delve into the intricate economics of running a pizza business in New York City. Joined by industry veterans James Shields, Alex Xianopoulos, and Evan Xenopoulos, the conversation explores the challenges and opportunities within a highly saturated and competitive market.

Saturation and Entrepreneurial Spirit

Joe initiates the discussion by questioning the viability of opening a new pizza restaurant in the overcrowded East Village. He muses, “[00:30] Joe Weisenthal: I would not have the guts to open up a new pizza restaurant. I would just assume that the market is saturated view” ([02:12]).

Alex counters this skepticism by highlighting a unique opportunity that arose post-pandemic: “[04:53] James Shields: During the pandemic, a bunch of established places went out of business, creating a pizza desert in Midtown, specifically around 52nd Street. This opened a green space for new entrants like us” ([05:45]).

Operational Essentials: Quality Ingredients and Pricing Strategy

The guests emphasize the importance of ingredient quality and pricing in differentiating their pizza offerings. Alex explains their premium approach: “[10:10] Alex Xianopoulos: We position ourselves as a premium product with the best, freshest ingredients. We ferment our dough for 48 hours, compared to the typical 24 hours, making our slices healthier and less heavy” ([10:07]).

James adds, “[07:34] Joe Weisenthal: How do you get to that best plain slice? It was one of our big motivating factors” ([07:34]), underscoring their commitment to classic flavors while maintaining high standards.

Capital Investments: The High Cost of Equipment

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the hefty initial investments required for restaurant equipment. James shares a personal anecdote: “[12:41] James Shields: Our oven cost $32,000 three years ago, and now it's $45,000. Additionally, specialized equipment like our pizza shredder costs $5,000” ([13:10]).

He further discusses the challenges posed by supply chain disruptions: “[13:14] Tracey Alloway: ...a hiccup during our construction as we needed a smoke hog, which is the ventilation precipitator. We were delayed four months waiting for one piece of equipment” ([14:15]).

Labor Challenges: Skill and Retention

The podcast delves into the complexities of hiring skilled labor for artisanal pizza making. Alex highlights the extensive training required: “[18:02] Alex Xianopoulos: Artisanal products like wood-fired pizza require employees who can master the craft over years” ([18:14]).

Evan echoes the difficulty in maintaining a stable workforce: “[30:05] James Shields: We trial about 10 out of 30 candidates, with varying retention rates” ([30:05]).

Distribution and Delivery Models

Efficient distribution is crucial for maintaining pizza quality. James recounts their flexible delivery methods: “[22:03] James Shields: We've rented U-Hauls, used personal cars, and even delivered orders ourselves to ensure timely delivery” ([22:56]).

They discuss the reliance on local clientele and the limitations of third-party delivery services, noting increased costs and control issues.

Economic Pressures: Inflation and Third-Party Fees

The discussion shifts to the rising costs impacting the pizza business. Alex breaks down the cost structure: “[25:44] Alex Xianopoulos: Historically, it's been 30% fixed costs, 30% labor, 30% food costs, and 10% profit. Now, labor has increased to 45%” ([25:44]).

The hosts address the burden of third-party delivery fees: “[30:05] James Shields: Third-party fees are reverting to 20%, significantly impacting our pricing strategy” ([31:34]).

Evan criticizes these entities as “parasitic” for disrupting the food industry and squeezing restaurant margins ([32:11]).

Regulatory Hurdles and Political Impact

Regulatory challenges pose additional obstacles. James shares frustrations with compliance: “[41:13] James Shields: Opening a new gas service can delay our operations indefinitely” ([42:12]).

Evan discusses the overregulation affecting restaurant operations: “[38:09] Alex Xianopoulos: Overregulation is the biggest problem moving forward. It complicates permitting and operational processes” ([38:40]).

The conversation touches on local politics, with Evan expressing concerns about Mayor Adams’s policies potentially increasing burdens on small businesses.

State of the NYC Economy and Future Outlook

The guests convey a cautiously optimistic view of NYC's recovery post-pandemic. James notes increased catering orders and foot traffic: “[46:27] James Shields: After the holiday cycle, we're seeing up to 25% growth compared to last year” ([46:08]).

However, they acknowledge ongoing uncertainties related to expenses and market volatility. Evan attributes long-term optimism to Midtown East's strategic location and transportation network: “[48:46] Evan Xenopoulos: The transportation nexus around Midtown East will drive long-term growth” ([48:11]).

Conclusion: Resilience and Adaptation in the Pizza Industry

The episode concludes with a reflection on the resilience required to succeed in NYC's pizza market. Tracy sums up the key challenges and the necessity for continuous adaptation: “[51:19] Joe Weisenthal: I have empathy now upon realizing that I'm one of those gluten people” ([51:19]).

The guests express gratitude for the opportunity to share their insights, highlighting the intricate balance between quality, cost management, and strategic growth essential for thriving in the competitive landscape of New York City's pizza industry.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Weisenthal: “I would not have the guts to open up a new pizza restaurant. I would just assume that the market is saturated view.” ([02:12])

• Alex Xianopoulos: “We ferment our dough for 48 hours...making our slices healthier and less heavy.” ([10:07])

• James Shields: “Our oven cost $32,000 three years ago, and now it's $45,000.” ([13:10])

• Alex Xianopoulos: “Overregulation is the biggest problem moving forward.” ([38:40])

• Evan Xenopoulos: “Third-party services are parasitic entities... decimating the industry.” ([32:11])

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussion on the economics, operations, and strategic considerations of running a pizza business in New York City, providing valuable insights for entrepreneurs and industry enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with context.

[Karen Moscow]

And that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Wiesenthal.

[Tracey Alloway]

And I'm Tracey Alloway. Eating pizza.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

We are recording this July 8th and we've done back to back to back episodes and we haven't had time for lunch. So I too am going to eat this bite of pizza. It's really good. We're eating really good pizza in the studio. It's really good. People are probably wondering what's going on, why we're one second I'm gonna swallow my food and I swear we're not gonna be sounding like we're eating pizza the entire time.

[Tracey Alloway]

Maybe we'll speak for yourself.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Okay, Tracy. A few months ago I noticed a new pizza restaurant had opened up in the East Village. And I thought to myself, what kind of person looks at the East Village and thinks, you know what? This neighborhood needs a new pizza restaurant? And I've always been sort of, I've been vexed by that question for a long time.

[Tracey Alloway]

Wait, it's a saturated market. But on the other hand, isn't like pizza in New York a slam dunk? Everyone loves pizza. We come here for pizza, don't we?

[Joe Wiesenthal]

I guess that's true. It just seems like there is a lot of pizza in the East Village. And opening up a new pizza place, it's very capital intensive. There's the stoves, there's the risk, there's the brand. There's all these things. I would not have the guts to open up a new pizza restaurant. I would Just assume that the market. I would just take the. It's saturated view. Maybe you have. The more. Maybe you would be the more optimistic and entrepreneurial.

[Tracey Alloway]

You can't go wrong with pizza.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah, you can't. It's New York City. I guess I could see it both ways, but I did find it striking. And it is of course one of the most ubiquitous businesses that you see at the ground level in New York City. Great. Pizza city. And I don't really know anything about the business of pizza.

[Tracey Alloway]

No. And we just spoke to a bakery business that is getting into the pizza business. So this is a really nice segue and natural evolution of the conversation.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah. I want to know how you make money selling a slice of pizza in New York City. I'm really excited. We actually have three perfect guests in the studio today. They brought us pizza. So there is an disclosure that we have to get out of the way, which we are eating the pizza that they brought us. So if you listen to this episode and you think like we've been like, you know, painfully bought off or whatever, then this, then that's why. It's because I had some pizza. But it's also an interesting one because a, this pizzeria is right by Bloomberg. So that's another excuse for why we're doing this one. But also two of the owners of the restaurant also own a deli or cafe near Bloomberg that I go to for lunch all the time. The Oxford Cafe. I don't really like eating pizza for lunch, if I'm being honest. It's a little heavy. But a chopped salad. And the Oxford Cafe, which is very close to Bloomberg, in my opinion is the best chopped salad operation in the entire city or that I've been to. No, for real. And so I'm sort of curious about that, how you differentiate there. So I just want to learn about like lunchtime food, including pizza.

[Tracey Alloway]

Let's do it.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Our three guests, I'm going to introduce them. We're going to be speaking with James Shields. He is a restaurateur here in New York City. He involved in multiple things, but he is a co founder of Zino's Pizza, which is on 52nd street between 2nd and 3rd. And then we're also going to be speaking with the other Xeno's co founders, Alex Xianopoulos, who also owns the Oxford Cafe, and his brother Evan Xenopoulos. So they're all involved in multiple things. Evan and Alex and Oxford and James and pizza, et cetera. And we are going to learn how to make money selling A slice of pizza. So I'll throw this out, James, or anyone else but James, I'll start with you. Why did you think there was capacity or a reason when you looked at this location at 52nd street between 2nd and 3rd to think, you know, what this area could use? Another pizza place?

[James Shields]

Sure.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

I mean, for us, it was clear during the pandemic, there was a great clearing event where a bunch of, you know, established places went out of business. And Midtown, specifically that area, 52nd street and that corridor. It was a bit of a pizza desert. And it's not the same as, like, the East Village or the West Village or Times Square or something like that, where if you open up shop, you're going to immediately be in a knife fight. So this was a green space for us and you and Alex and Evan kind of had this chance meeting through a friend of ours. They were looking for someone to do something with their pizzeria, which they had established at the Mill. And we got to talking and we knew a space that was right across the street, and it just immediately clicked. And we're like, we have a partnership here. We're going to make an honest go of it. Let's throw some money in here and make this happen.

[Tracey Alloway]

Okay, my first question is pineapple on pizza.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yay or nay, man?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to talk since I've been making pizza, and this is the important stuff. Exactly. So this is all near and dear to my heart. So I'm okay with pineapple and ham on pizza. It depends on the type. If you try to put it on Neapolitan, that's sacrilegious. And then you're going to get, like, you're going to get your, you know, pizza making card revoked. But if you do it on, like, a New York slice or maybe in a Sicilian, then you know what? You're. You're in okay territory, and we can. We can give you a pass.

[Tracey Alloway]

I don't know how you guys are going to react to this, but at my local pizza place in Connecticut, they do a Hawaiian with pizza cherries on top of that. So good.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So I've done it with soppressata and ricotta, and if you drizzle some of that, like, maraschino cherry juice on it, it just ties the whole thing together because you get that salty. That's sweet. And you get a little bit of that, like, heat, too.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

I do find that question kind of interesting because this is Alex, by the way. Sorry, this is Alex. Because, you know, Italians do eat prosciutto with melon.

[Nathan Hager]

Right.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

So that it does have a similar profile to ham and pineapple. So, you know, I've always found it like an interesting of.

[Tracey Alloway]

I don't know why it became so controversial. It seems like a natural match.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

No, there's a meme of like some Italian guy looking at a pineapple on pizza, like, get away that nonsense. And then he sees the prosciutto wrapper on melon. It's like, oh, amazing delicacy. Yeah, yeah.

[James Shields]

I personally, I'm a traditionalist. I just. When we were like partnering up on this, our aim was how do we make the best plain slice as well. Right. And that's, I feel, one of the most important characteristics in New York. So I've never been a big pineapple on pizza person, but, you know, how do you get to that? Best plain slice is kind of one that was one of our big motivating factors when we met up and, you know, trying to figure that out.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

And that was Evan speaking, by the way. All right, let's talk about that. So you guys, Evan and Alex, you have background in other restaurants. I mentioned the Oxford Cafe, which I highly recommend. When you thought about, okay, you want to partner and get involved in the pizza opportunity, we've established that this area is a pizza desert. How do you think about like this sort of where in the market high end to low end, et cetera, is optimal and what are the categories of the market that exists?

[Evan Xenopoulos]

You know, it's a good question. You know, one of the elements that, like James mentioned earlier, we had a pizza section in our place on 52nd Lex, the Mill. And you know, before the pandemic, a large component of that section's business was catering. So when we were looking at this specific location, we signed the lease before the Omicron variant and obviously there were issues kind of with people coming back to the office afterwards and things like that. So part of the, when we were looking at this location was the thinking was that we would have a lot more catering, higher price point transactions. That was kind of sustained, the business versus doing solely kind of by the slice operations. Because that is a lower ticket price involves a lot of transactions to really get the volume and sales that you need to kind of COVID all the costs. I'm sure we'll discuss kind of the elements of the business. So I think what you've been seeing the last couple of years with a lot of costs across the board for food and beverage, it's become so much more difficult to operate. Everything's become More expensive. You rely on third party services, different digital applications that all take a couple of points from your business. So you're seeing a transition in New York in terms of pizza, where people are trying to go up the food chain to a higher price point to be able to cover those expenses. So you're seeing a lot of traditional mom and pop places close, dollar slice shops, even really good ones, that had a lot of, had a good reputation. You're seeing a lot of those struggle as well. So you're seeing a big transition. Whereas I'd say 10 to 15 years ago, you'd almost never see a pizzeria close. I mean, it was just really, really unusual. Now you're seeing kind of a lot of new entrants, a lot of people exiting. So there's a churn in the business that just didn't exist.

[Tracey Alloway]

How does pizza actually move up in terms of pricing? Because I imagine I love PIZ pizza, but it is in some ways a humble product and there are limited things you can do to it. So if you're trying to charge more money for pizza by making it, I don't know, like luxury pizza, gold leaf and caviar.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Is that what you're trying to say?

[Tracey Alloway]

Does that work? What do you do?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

No, there's a window, right. And the way that Xenos is, is kind of positioned within the marketplace is we're premium product, premium price. So like, we want to be on the higher end and we also want to use the best, freshest quality ingredients that you're going to find in our marketplace. Right. Because we want to stand behind what we eat. We want to eat really good, healthy, fresh food every day. That even goes to, that facilitates the process that we go through. So we ferment our dough for 48 hours. Most sliced joints in New York City are 24 hours. And why is that different? It makes the product a little more healthy because the yeast are essentially digesting the gluten and softening the dough for your stomach to process. So it's something that doesn't stick, sit in your stomach. And you feel that when you eat our slice, you don't leave the place being like, you know what I mean?

[Joe Wiesenthal]

This is why I didn't realize this. This is why I don't really usually eat pizza because I don't want to feel that in the middle of the day. But I didn't realize that this could be addressed by going more pre.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Brother, let me put you on the spot. How do you feel right now after eating that slice?

[Joe Wiesenthal]

I've eaten two slices since we've started talking. I feel okay right now. All right. Wow. This is really. I learned something.

[James Shields]

Yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Eye opening. Right. And this goes to the economics of like, you need additional storage in your walk in. You need to process this a couple days beforehand. So that means if you get an order, you know, 24 hours, you're already 24 hours behind in the process. Right. So like, the logistics of this is quite impressive to manage on a scale that we do it at.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

What else makes a difference in terms of ingredient costs and whether it's cheese, whether it's tomato sauce. Like what is the difference between your slice and a dollar slice? Yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So I'd say cheese is the most expensive cost center that we have. More than meat, more than any other thing. Right. But you've seen inflation across the board. And also like, it ties into tariffs and things like that. We have, you know, Italian based products, you know, like canned tomatoes and that kind of thing that do get impacted. But cheese by far is the biggest cost center.

[Tracey Alloway]

One of the more random experiences I have had in my life is talking to a pizza salesman in I think it was of all places like a door to door pizza oven salesman. And one of the things I internalized from that conversation was pizza ovens are really, really tricky. It seems very difficult to get them exactly right. So I'm curious how much equipment costs factor into the business and how careful you have to be about that sort of initial capital investment.

[James Shields]

Yeah, I can jump in on that. This is Evan. So we opened the restaurant actually three years ago this Sunday. So three years ago, but let's go. We were looking at the equipment just as an example. So our oven, now it's pizza masters. Everyone's using it, everyone's going electric now, which is definitely a big trend in the city, is obviously going against, you know, gas powered grills, ovens and things like that. But we bought our oven three years ago. It was $32,000. It is now, I think 45,000.

[Tracey Alloway]

Wow.

[James Shields]

Just as an example of what I.

[Tracey Alloway]

See, one for 91,000.

[James Shields]

That's. That's the five deck we're at. We're at a three deck. So we're a little bit less than that. But yeah, so you're looking at that. And then it's just all the extra equipment. That's where it gets daunting, you know, to open up. And we're only a thousand square foot restaurant. If you're doing like a fine dining restaurant, you can even imagine, you know, what, what the kitchen equipment's going to. And yeah, so you're trying your best to you know, make a business plan, keep your costs in order, but you know, you're getting lowboys fridges. Our pizza shredder lowboy is a fridge lower to the ground but you have a counter on top of it. Underneath there's just fridge storage. Just as an example, our shredder costs $5,000. So you can see how all these little things you keep adding into the business, just keep adding and adding and adding and you're trying to get the restaurant open as fast as possible. We had a hiccup during our construction as we needed a smoke hog, which is the ventilation precipitator. Precipitator. And ours got back ordered and we got delayed four months just waiting for one piece of equipment which we could not open our business without.

[Tracey Alloway]

Wasn't that the plot of an actual bear episode? It was something with the ventilator, right? Yeah, I'm sure it was.

[James Shields]

The bear season two was perfect when they were building out that restaurant in the chaos as you're going through it and. Yeah, go ahead Alex.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

That was the former one.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

I mean you mentioned earlier kind of like when you're looking at a restaurant and the type of. So I mean the ideal situation is what's called black iron where you're essentially exhausting out through an exhaust and you have an exhaust fan and and you know, the city's very specific about those types of buildings where you can do that versus you know, in this situation the type of we have a precipitator that basically cleans the exhaust air and is vented out onto the street. Right. So typically if you have like open windows, things like that, you're not allowed to have normal kind of like black iron exhaust. But yeah, during the pandemic a lot of different types of critical equipment were just non existent and you know, even for example, a walk in box at some point. I remember during the pandemic people were tearing down old restaurants and selling the old walk in box just you know, 15 year old panels, you know, and just like selling it because people couldn't find them. And it was just a rat race to try to find this equipment or also electric equipment, you know, breakers, things like that were on backorder from China. And I know there's been some episodes on some of those issues on odd lots. But you know, for restaurants where, you know, time is money, you're trying to, you know, build a team, get out ahead of, you know, the rent and things like that and you know it was just a nightmare trying to pull it together.

[H]

Time for a sofa upgrade? Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context, and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

How big of a challenge is labor and how skilled is pizza labor? Like do they still have to twirl the dough? Like is that a thing or is that just like for show at some restaurants? Talk to us about the labor component of the business.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So it depends on the segment of pizza. So like New York slice and Sicilian and things like that. The labor bar is a little bit lower, but for us it's still very high end. Like we'll take probably at least 30 candidates. We'll trial probably 10 of them. And then one guy might stay three months and one guy might stay two years. Who knows for wood fired and coal fired, like, like I have a wood fired that's down in the West Village that is such an artisanal product that to have a guy that actually knows what he's doing can take six months to train and then three years to understand, and then another five years to really understand. You know, like it takes a lifetime and you're just constantly learning.

[Tracey Alloway]

I actually wanted to ask you about this, but why did you decide to go electric with this particular oven versus coal or wood?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Great question. So it was a mandate by the building that we're in because we're in a, you know, a high rise. Right. But it also has the added benefit that the current is more consistent because you're drawing the power and you're heating the product more consistently than a flame, which might ebb and flow in terms of temperature. So our oven is more similar to like a Tesla than it is to actually like an oven. It's got a lot of electronics in it. And we saw that firsthand when we literally tore it apart on the street, the sidewalk, disassembled it, moved it through the door because it's a huge piece of equipment, and then reassembled it within the space. It was so impressive. The pictures are incredible.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Just to zoom back up, let's say Tracy and I wanted to open up a pizza restaurant. How much money do we have to have? Do we realistically, both in terms of putting down money for rent, but then the full, like, what kind of operation is this to get into?

[James Shields]

If you're talking about ours, we did a thousand square feet. The biggest mistake all restaurateurs make is they just don't have enough working capital after they open the doors. So I would say to be safe, you're looking at minimum 400,000, but probably in the 5 to 600k range just to give you that extra cushion because I've been working with my family's had restaurants in New York since the 80s and I, you know, started in 09. You would make your payback in like 18 months. Now we're looking, with the way the expenses are, you know, Insurance is up 20, 30% since pre Covid labor. You're looking at a three year time horizon often so. And it takes so long sometimes for someone because we're not a national. Right. So we're not getting that automatic like press. So just as a mom and pop, you know, you often need more time to get the Marketing out there. So yeah, 500 to 600,000 seems like. Right. A good spot for like a thousand square feet. But yeah, yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

And this is in the QSR segment, the quick serve restaurant. If it was full service, you're looking at, you know, 700 to a million. It gets up there pretty, pretty quickly.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, because I mean, it's just more involved like let's say in that space. You know, obviously the equipment and those types of needs, the working capital needs are more. Because the staffing needs are more expensive, but also just the finishes, like anything now these days, you know, services are so expensive. You know, whether it's electric, plumbing, like all these different inputs that go into building a restaurant are just that much more expensive. And you know, I think that's just kind of the way it is now post pandemic. These types of services are just very expensive. So, you know, for a restaurant, your cost of the build out is that much more expensive just because of that reality.

[Tracey Alloway]

How does distribution work for you guys? Because I imagine this might be another big capital investment. And it's something that came up when we were speaking to the baker earlier. He pointed out that it's not just about making the bread. You actually have to deliver it to your customers. When I think about pizza, I think about pizza boxes. I think about pizza boxes coming directly to my door usually around midnight or something like that. How do you actually get the pizza out to customers?

[James Shields]

I've kind of been involved in a lot of that, but yeah, it's like you just move heaven and earth and you just need to get it there any way you can. So obviously, best cases, you know, we're really focusing locally. We, you know, love all the office clientele in the area and we've been doing a lot of like, quick deliveries, but you know, we're looking at orders throughout the city and like there's been days where we'll rent a U Haul and just fill it up with pizza boxes and get it down there. Yeah, I've brought in, you know, my personal car. I'm originally from New Jersey, but. And my personal car one day and we had like a last minute, like huge order. I'm just driving through the city in my personal car, you know, so Subways any way you can get it. And yeah, it's just one of those products where we have been trying to focus locally because pizza, it does lose its luster the further away you get. Right. Traveling when it's stuck in the boxes can be an issue, but you know, we just make it work. And whatever it takes to get it there on time.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

What are your capacity constraints? Let's say I'm at the office, Someone closes a big sale. It's like, this is great. Let's have a party tonight. Could I call you up? Like, how quickly could I get 30 pizzas from you?

[James Shields]

30? If you give us, like, three hours, we'll get it there. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we've done. We've done that.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

And what's the most number of pizzas you can have cooking at one time? Like, and inventory of pizzas that you have already cooked? Like, talk to us. Yeah, yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

I mean, we have a pretty decent throughput. So, you know, we've done 50 to 100 pie orders, you know, and it's all about timing and moisture control. You know, the way that we design the dough, you know, it's very efficient on the reheat is what we tend to call. We're able to get that all out at once. And we feed a lot of desks in Midtown, like, you know, shout out Jerry from Nomura, by the way, and Blackrock and all those guys. Like, you know, so we're feeding the desk, and, you know, once they order from us, it's game over. They're weekly. Right. So we're used to that kind of, you know, throughput. And it is like Alex alluded to earlier, you know, it's a functional part of our business. We really rely on catering and the offices to really sustain us in this one very, very hyper, local neighborhood.

[Tracey Alloway]

So speaking of hyper local, do you tailor the menu for that particular location, or is pizza a universal, transportable good that can work basically anywhere in New.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

York, at least 100%. You definitely tailor. So when I designed the dough, I had a lot of things in mind. This is a very vertical. So we limit the amount of blocks we go, because by the time you take an elevator up and that guy comes back, this is 30 minutes, you know, like, he's gone. Right. So that's why, as owners, the collective three of us, you could see us running around Midtown east, like, in carts and cars and U Hauls, and, like, we're all pitching in to kind of make this all happen.

[Tracey Alloway]

But what about in terms of the actual menu, like the pizza flavors and design?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we. We avoid specific items that don't hold up well in a box or lose their heat. And, you know, it limits. Like, you don't want to do fish, right. You never see fish on pizza. Right. It's rare.

[Tracey Alloway]

My dad always ordered anchovy pizza. It was disgusting.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Yeah, it's usually the cured stuff. Not like, you're not going to get, like, sea bass on there.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Sea bass ceviche pizza.

[Tracey Alloway]

Someone will do that. You know they won't.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

I'm sure they will.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

We talked about this sort of upfront capital cost. Let's try to work the math in the other direction. Like, I buy a slice of pizza or I buy 10 slices of pizza. How much of what I'm paying for is the labor that went into it? How much is it the raw ingredient, and how much is it your upfront capital outlay and the profit you need to make on your risk? Like, talk to me about, like, how you're getting paid back for all these things. What's the math here?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So historically it's been 30, 30, 30, 10. Right. Okay, so 30 fixed costs, 30 labor, 30 food costs, and then 10% profit. Right. That's like normal for New York. If you're outside of New York, your profit gets a little bit higher, but you're also not doing as much volume. So you can get like Shake Shack's numbers. If you look at that, like, 17% profit margin for them, they're bigger, they can extract more value out of things, get better pricing. But in New York City, it's a little more cutthroat, and you might even get 5% profit margins or no percent profit at all. And you go out of business.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Are there items on a pizza restaurant's menu or options that are particularly high margin? Like, you know, there's some X on this, but you really make your money on Y. Oh, yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

You could have what's called loss leaders.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Right.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Like, you have things that attract you to the place. Like, you know, stakes have a 50% margin. Right. And when I said the 30, 30, 10, by the way, it's changed in the last decade. Now your labor cost is 45%. You know, your food costs are where you're trying to save a little bit more money by getting creative with the menu items. And then your fixed costs, you know, you're trying to limit those as well. But the variables have been through the roof. Right. Like the insurance has go crazy.

[James Shields]

Yeah. And just in terms of. Yeah. The one thing that does attract most people to pizza restaurants is in general, your food cost is pretty good. Like, you'll get. If you're, like really humming, you'll. You'll get it like close to 20%, which is, you know, most restaurants, like our Oxford Cafe and similar QSRs like that, you're at the 30 to 35. So your food cost is the great component. It's now In New York, 10% was the rule of thumb on rent. Everyone is now, you know, in the 15 to 17% range. So there's all these different changes and you know what you knew about, you know, your cost structures, and you're just searching for new sales any way you can. And you know, you're trying to keep the walk ins growing, but yeah, it's just managing it. There's so many different expenses to manage. But yeah, there's just been a huge.

[Tracey Alloway]

Change since COVID Well, this is something that keeps coming up. Increased costs in the restaurant business. What levers do you have to pull? What levers are available to you to try to keep those costs down? Because it seems like you need to hire people. Presumably you need to hire them at a competitive rate. You have a premium pizza product, so you don't want to sacrifice quality insurance, I'm guessing, is not that negotiable. What can you do?

[James Shields]

It's just grow, grow, grow. That's all you can do. I mean, recently I've taken on from all my businesses, cold calling. I've been looking at, you know, I'll look at directories of buildings. I'm finding the company names, find the phone numbers, and I'm just calling companies. And it's. Honestly, we've already netted like 10 to 15 new catering orders. So you just have to keep growing. That's just. That's just what it is. Because, yeah, in terms of food costs, that's a good question. You also need to keep your purveyors honest. You need to have a book of other purveyors to constantly check pricing. Because, yeah, we even, you know, I've been in our restaurants, the Oxford Cafe in the mill. I mean, we had purveyors that had been serving us for 20 years, and we kind of stopped checking. And all of a sudden you realize even. Even people who are loyal to you are jacking up little prices here and there. So you need to constantly be checking your invoices and doing your due diligence because it's on you to make sure nothing slides by you.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

The other thing I'd add, one of the challenges on sort of the, the vendors and purveyor side is that you've also seen a lot of concentration occur over the last like 10 to 20 years. So it's also a challenge to kind of be able to kind of price and check with. With different suppliers and things like that. And one of the interesting Things that happened with the pandemic though, is that because everything became so expensive, you did start seeing a lot of jobbers, basically, people kind of pulling up in the back of a truck, kind of bringing different products and things like that, and often able to kind of undercut the pricing a little bit. But in general, especially on the supply side, there is a lot of concentration there economically because just, just the nature of the business now and the regulations and things like that, there's just a lot of economic pressure that results in this concentration.

[Tracey Alloway]

Do you use a lot of third party services or like outsource certain things to middlemen? Because this again has come up in a previous conversation, the idea that you're spending more on just the middle guy to get things done.

[James Shields]

Okay, so yeah, in terms of, yeah, obviously the big one I know is all the third party delivery services. You know, that's one of those, you have to make them work for you. Unfortunately, in this past week they had capped third party fees at 5% after the pandemic to help out restaurants. But starting August 1, those rates are coming back up to 20%. So you'll be at 20% on that, 4% on the transaction fee. And then if you're using the third party services, caviar, grubhub, et cetera for deliveries, they charge another 10 to 15%. So I look at the prices I charge on my restaurants, on my third party sites, we're 15% higher than our in house pricing often because you need it to manage that expense. But I can't even imagine where it's going to go again August 1st because people's prices are already crazy. And yeah, you need to make it work. And with the pizzeria, we always felt we at least take our deliveries ourselves. We find, you know, with pizza, you want like really good control of that. Someone who doesn't work at your restaurant, they're just looking at that as a tip for themselves. So you want to make sure your pizza is being delivered correctly. But yeah, that's one of the hardest costs to manage because with deliveries, you obviously, paper, plastic goods, everything that's going out, the costs just go crazy. And yeah, now if they're going to be charging 15% more again, it really adds up. So that's one thing we've been discussing actually this whole week is how much are we going to have to increase prices to deal with that shock again.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

To just add to what Evan's saying. So in recent years, like the last two years or so, venture capital has really stopped subsidizing these third party websites and they're no longer offering these heavy discounts and they basically bought the market. They offered this free, you can get it instantaneous lunch. And then now we're actually going to rack up prices. And Uber specifically, they did this with the taxis. They put everybody out of business. And then once they own the market they're like, all right, you know what, we're going to take our actual cut.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, I mean they are really parasitic entities. They've just disrupted it.

[James Shields]

Sure.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

It sounds like you've thought about this before.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

I mean they've really, really disrupted the food industry. And one of the elements that I feel like future historians when they're looking back on this time and really thinking about kind of the American and what's the defining aspect of the American. And it's like they want convenience and these companies are trying to fulfill that but operating in such a parasitic manner that they just really, really harm put themselves in between you and your customer, the restaurant, the customer, and just basically absorb all the upside there. And in the process they're basically just decimating this industry. And you're also seeing in the way they're responding where now they're trying to go fully vertical. Right. They're opening up these ghost kitchens where they have all these weird brand.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

The stupidest restaurant name.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, I mean just like all the. Yeah, it's just like the most ridiculous restaurant names and they're attempting to cultivate this like faux, you know, Italian, like local Italian deli and it's just ridiculous and. But you know, because they have so much capital behind them, they're able to kind of manage through these concentrated apps like the Access. You know, they're able to do that. I don't know how successful they'll be, but it's really harmful. They're asocial. They're really hurting kind of third spaces and where people used to come together and it's very odd.

[H]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Anabe sofas. The only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics. That means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus they're Earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday news. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context, and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

So, in light of all of these gigantic companies parasitically extracting value and disrupting community, how are we feeling about socialism these days? Which I only ask obviously because we're, you know, we may have a socialist mayor in a few months.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, I mean, nominally socialist, I feel like.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Sure. Well, it's interesting because I mentioned you guys love making money and you're entrepreneurs. On the other hand, part of his campaign was actually spotlighting small business and bodegas and delis, etc. So I'm curious how you're thinking about.

[Tracey Alloway]

Like, wait, wait, wait, are you worried there's going to be a city owned pizzerias?

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Well, you know, Zora and Mamdani ran an incredible campaign, so energetic and the one thing we always talk about is that everybody has a point. Right? You know, cost of living issues are real, it's hard and, and daily life has become much more of a grind than it was before the pandemic. Right. So I think he was addressing real concerns from people.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah, but what are you worried about?

[Evan Xenopoulos]

The one thing we were talking about this on the way over. If you had not visited New York in two years and you came back two years later, now, the first thing you would say is the city's a lot cleaner and it's actually more fun, seems more functional and. And there's a lot less crime and kind of disorder.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Do you notice it? Because I was gonna say, I know the stats are good, but I can't tell how much am I being influenced by the fact that I read the news and the stats are very good these days. But you absolutely notice it, I think.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Absolutely. I mean, do you.

[James Shields]

Someone who like. Cause I'm commuting all day between the restaurants. I mean, from 2020 to today, it's like I go on the subway seven, eight times a day, walk around the streets. It is very noticeable. I know obviously there's a lot of, like, there was a lot of trashing New York, you know, during COVID and the election cycles and all that. But yeah, it's definitely not at that level that it was. But I do understand. Yeah. When you can pay for eggs or milk and stuff like that, I do understand why people are going in that direction. But it also, the policies need to be sensible because we already have a crazy budget in the city and we, you know, if you keep adding more and more debt, you know, I just don't see how you can pay for all these things. He's saying, yeah, without hurting us down the road.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

The over regulation is the biggest. The biggest problem for restaurants moving forward. And I did see, you know, he had, he had great campaign points. There was this really stunning video on how he wanted to appoint a small business czar, which I thought would really eloquently describe like the. The plight that the mom and pop is currently facing. Right. Like if you're Chipotle, you got like 10 guys that can handle regulation and they could just deal with all that stuff. But like, like me, Evan and Alex, we're like just literally trying to just get you food, you know.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah. I think the other thing I would say is like, you know, if you look at his campaign proposals to say on housing and things like that, you know, it's very much kind of trying to manage like a lot of existing programs, you know, from the Adams administration. City of yes. And different, like regulatory, making it easier to permitting, things like that. It's not like, you know, he's proposing building a million housing units via nycha. Do you know what I mean? That's why I find a lot of the conversation about him to be very strange because.

[Tracey Alloway]

Hyperbolic.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, it's hyperbolic. But also his proposals really aren't. You call them a socialist and he calls himself a socialist, but his proposals are much more in line with what's kind of the progressive neoliberal paradigm that we've had over the last six years. For example, he talks about rent control and things like that. A lot of that was enacted via Cuomo in 2019. Right. There's never been a real honest debate. Have those reforms that were enacted 2019, have they worked? And clearly, you know, based on this campaign, they haven't. So what works? What doesn't work? You know, And I, I also don't think. I don't see a lot of foreign journalists coming to New York and saying, wow, this regulatory regime is something we need to. We need to bring this to, you know, Tokyo. We need to bring this. Vienna. Yeah, Red Vienna. And like, you know, nobody says that, so that's kind of. I feel like sometimes we're not honest. And oftentimes also, like the debate about Evan mentioned the city budgets, like $120 billion. It's massive, right? So when somebody talks about austerity budgets, it always rings hollow to me because you're spending a lot of Money. It's nearly 40,000 per student for the NYCDOE. But it's not really delivering results. So what does that mean? Is it more we're not spending enough? Is it that, you know, we're not effective in governance? Like, I think those are the more interesting questions that sometimes, you know, people don't want to discuss because those are hard questions.

[Tracey Alloway]

Pizza and politics. I like this.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Someone's gotta be doing that already. But if not, it could be a recurring theme.

[Tracey Alloway]

Yeah, well, talk a little bit more about the regulatory choke points. Like, give us a sense. Because if I think about regulation of New York restaurants, like, okay, when you're opening, I'm sure there are a lot of hoops to jump through. But then after that thing I can really think of is the health letter that goes up on the window. And frankly, I see a lot of non A's around. So it seems in my mind, like maybe this isn't a big deal if you can continue to operate without getting.

[James Shields]

An A. I mean, the one I want to bring up is earlier talking about why we went electric. If you try to get a new gas service into a restaurant, your restaurant may never wake up. I mean, wake up may never open with the Con Ed process just for gas. It is actually funny story. I currently in my apartment, our gas line cracked in January and we might not get it back to the following January or February. So that's just one where if you're trying to open up a restaurant, like, you might just be sitting There calling Con Ed every day, just begging for them to let your restaurant operate so you can make your investment back. So that's just one. But yeah, there's just a lot of constant. At one point they put a regulation for you can't keep your doors open so air conditioning didn't flow out. Obviously the paper straw thing was a big one. So there's constant little annoyances that they just try to put into your business.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

And it's just, why are people's drawers still a thing? Trump won. I thought, like, why did we get rid of that for real? Like, how are they. I still get them from time to time. Like, who is asking for that?

[James Shields]

I couldn't agree more. It's just like, it's just these little things that we try to constantly do and it's just a headache for us. Like, you know, with the garbage, it's like, obviously I'm very happy Mayor Adams, you know, tackle it. That's been a huge issue for the city.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Do you perceive progress on that? Like when you look at the trash and also the rat situation in New York, which he touts his war on rats a lot. Do you perceive. Are you able to claims to be.

[Tracey Alloway]

A single issue voter on rats? I'm not sure it's true.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Pizza rat.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

No. Do you notice the kind of stuff?

[James Shields]

I mean, I think it's just very good to just containerize garbage, you know, especially. So I was just in Europe, in Portugal, and they have these beautiful garbage cans where they. It's a chute underground. Then they come and get it. I would love to just stop seeing garbage bags everywhere. We just need to clean up the streets a little bit. So it's good.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

I also want to add to that because when Covid happened, they basically opened up the regulation for every three letter agency. So while you're seeing a lot more of the grade pending signs from the health department, I'm more concerned about the fire department and the Department of Transportation because the way that they tackled the outdoor dining has been ridiculous. There's a hundred new steps to doing outdoor dining. Whereas I used to just have to fill out a form, send in a check and it get renewed every year. Now I have 11 pending tickets from the Department of Transportation for various reasons.

[Tracey Alloway]

That's a shame. I'm a big fan of outdoor dining and I wish there was more of it in New York. Despite the rat problem, Jim, in terms of additional pressures on the business, there's another one we should probably talk about again. Situation is kind of in flux. We're recording this on July 8th. But tariffs, right? I assume as a pizza place, maybe you're importing some tomatoes from Italy or, I don't know, fancy flour from France, which I know is a thing. Is that expected to impact your business at all?

[Evan Xenopoulos]

One area where it definitely has impacted is just paper and plastic. A lot of paper and plastic materials that go into kind of branding and things like that do come from abroad. It's just become more expensive in the US to produce those types of things. So, you know, you're importing a lot of different products. The bowls that you see at different spots come from, you know, Vietnam or China or some other areas. And, you know, the pulp bowls. And so that's one area where clearly, you know, for a lot of restaurants, they are impacted. You know, obviously there's, you know, it's been kind of a ridiculous couple of months with the back and forth, but that's definitely an area where I think a lot of restaurant operators are concerned and will actually ultimately be impacted by it.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So it is a global supply chain. And like, here's an example, right? Like, what do you associate the food product of Switzerland to be?

[Tracey Alloway]

Cheese.

[James Shields]

Chocolate.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Cheese. Okay. Chocolate. How many miles you think is the local cocoa bean from Switzerland?

[Tracey Alloway]

A lot.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

A lot? Yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Yeah. Like 1200 miles.

[Tracey Alloway]

But cheese is local.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Cheese is local.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah. How would you assess this sort of current cyclical state of the New York City economy? People, I don't think, have, like, ever been more divided and confused about just the trajectory of whether we're talking about the national economy or anything else. You could have people pointing to signs like, look, things are booming right now. And other people, people will have very compelling arguments like, things are slowing down, Fed's gotta cut and stuff. Like right now, July 8, how are things feeling?

[James Shields]

I mean, I can start. I know we all have opinions on it. I mean, just back to why we started this business. We always believed New York would come back. Obviously, we took a huge risk in the middle of COVID And right now we are seeing it's always good and bad signs. Right. Obviously, we just came out of the big holiday cycle between Memorial Day, Juneteenth and fourth of July. And, you know, we are seeing more catering, which is great. Obviously, in an area like Midtown east, it's very nice to see the foot traffic, you know, Monday through Thursday, back again. So that's, you know, we're feeling very optimistic entering this.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Fridays are gone for good, huh?

[James Shields]

So that was one thing we didn't bring up earlier. You know, one of the big Issues trying to manage your expenses is that Friday, at least in New York, you know, I don't know about other cities or in the suburbs, but losing that Friday, you know, that Friday where, you know, you're.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

People probably don't eat more lunch on Monday through Thursday to compensate for the fact that they're not ordering at breakfast.

[James Shields]

Exactly. Like when you're doing your basic, you know, modeling for your restaurant, losing one whole weekday a week. Right. It adds up. But I will say we are feeling way better entering this fall than the previous years. You know, just we've had a couple months where it's like, wow, this is, you know, we had two months that were up 25% at Zenos from last year, which is fantastic. So feeling good on that end. But you know, we're always on edge. Right. It's like we don't know what's going to happen with certain expenses and we're going to keep pushing. But yeah.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

So yeah, to speak to that. The wealth effect. Right. People can avoid coming into to Manhattan on Friday. But also during the summer when you have Labor Day, Memorial Day, you know, the three big holidays, they're gone the week before and the week after. So you're essentially. New York City is turning into a little bit of a ghost town.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Well, because they're really rich these days because the stock market. So they're taking longer vacations around holidays. Is that what you're saying?

[Alex Xianopoulos]

It's all the points.

[Tracey Alloway]

They're buying pizza in the Hamptons.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

That these are becoming longer holidays. Holidays. That's really interesting.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

You can see it in the sales.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Yeah, I think that's kind of part of the problem where before the pandemic, a lot of these being in the restaurant industry, it was very predictable. You kind of had like a sense of where each week would be and how to manage. You know, that was just kind of like second nature. And now with kind of remote work and you know, how people approach work as well, you know, it's a much bigger challenge to kind of manage the business and predicting and you know, being able to kind of steady sales on the city as a whole goal. It's kind of interesting. Like midtown east, the Plaza district, as Manhattan was moving upwards and north. What made that area, that area was the transportation network.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Right.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

It's like a nexus of transportation. You have Grand Central, all the subway lines crossing there and it's a real crossing of the whole tri State area. East side Access obviously was the big project that brought LIRR into Grand Central. Hopefully they figure out how to actually properly utilize that. And that's kind of why we're bullish long term on that specific part of the city. It draws people from all over the region and ultimately that's what's going to allow it to thrive again and replicate kind of where it was pre pandemic.

[Tracey Alloway]

If you are opening xenos again or if you could go back in time and do it over, is there anything you do differently?

[James Shields]

Wow, that's a, that's a heavy one. Yeah. I mean, back to your, the question earlier. It's like when you're picking the location, you know, you're looking for office clients, tourists, locals, and you know, you're trying to balance all those things obviously, and then against the cost of the rent. We obviously found a, you know, area where did not have a lot of competition we felt was going to give us a chance to.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

And you just found that by typing pizza in Google Maps and zooming out looking for red dots. That's crazy.

[James Shields]

When you're looking. Yeah, you need to check what's, what's around you. And we like the space. It, you know, obviously was a great space over there and we knew the area. But for example, one thing we've lost in this area is tourists because four or five of like the big hotels in the area have shut down since COVID So obviously looking back, you can't predict that. And I do think if we had another chance, it's like, I mean, we love this space but like, maybe do you need to like go, go find an area that's a little bit more touristy but like, how, how can you predict that? And then the one thing we were discussing which is interesting is obviously pizza and bars usually go together, right? But you are seeing people are drinking less now. So are those areas not as good as, you know, they used to be? I don't know.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Evan, Alex and James. That was fantastic. That was the conversation I hoped to have. I didn't even know we were going to get pizza out of it, but that was a lot of fun. We learned a lot. And thank you all so much for coming on odlov.

[James Shields]

Thank you, thanks for having us.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Thanks for having us.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Shout out Chris Hatch, by the way.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Oh yeah, Chris Hatch, who we've had on the podcast a couple of times, he introduced me to James and then I also met Alex by going to the Oxford Cafe. So all coming together here. Thank you guys so much.

[Alex Xianopoulos]

Thank you.

[James Shields]

Thank you.

[Evan Xenopoulos]

Thanks guys.

[Tracey Alloway]

Thank you so much.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Tracy. I actually, my stomach does not feel that bad. I did not Know that about, like, oh, you ferment for a long time, then eat the gluten, and then you don't feel as heavy. I didn't know any. I didn't know anything about that.

[Tracey Alloway]

I didn't know that either. Although I have to confess, the whole lunchtime heaviness thing is I have never had that problem and I never understood it.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Do you think I have a gluten? I'd be so embarrassed. Like, I don't want to judge people who I've always like, what if I'm one of those gluten people? Well, oh, I have a gluten.

[Tracey Alloway]

Well, maybe you'll feel better if you actually take it into account. But that was your.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

I have empathy now upon realizing that I'm one of those gluten people.

[Tracey Alloway]

All right, well, okay. So we talked about pizza and politics. Sicilian with a side of socialism.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah.

[Tracey Alloway]

Marinara and the macro economy.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Were you writing all these down?

[Tracey Alloway]

Yes, I was, actually.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

I love your fastidiousness about dropping puns in alliteration Terrible whenever you get a opportunity. But no, I did think that was really fun. And I like entrepreneurs. They're optimistic. They have to be, don't they?

[Tracey Alloway]

That's right. I am thinking about, like, a couple themes that keep coming across in these couple of episodes we've done on the sort of restaurant or wholesale food business.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah.

[Tracey Alloway]

And that's the idea of a lot of the cost increases coming from that sort of middle layer of third party services. Whether it's because you have to outsource something like distribution, or it's because you have to use some. Something like an app, a food delivery app that charges an enormous amount of money to both the customer and the restaurant, apparently. I feel like I need to impress this on people who are not in New York. The food app charges in New York.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

I stopped, by the way. I never get. Yeah, I actually started. I'm real old fashioned. I walk to the store and pick up my food after ordering it online.

[Tracey Alloway]

That's Lindy.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Yeah, it is Lindy. Yeah. No, it's. It's. It's completely insane.

[Tracey Alloway]

All right, well, we could probably talk about pizza for a long time.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

We have more pizza in the control room right now. So rather than continuing to talk about it, I want another slice.

[Tracey Alloway]

All right. Shall we leave it there?

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Let's leave it there.

[Tracey Alloway]

This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me. Raceyallaway.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. Go check out their restaurants. Alex and Evan and James. They all have Xeno's and also I swear I kinda wanna do another Oxford Cafe on I guess 60th street is the best best chop salad in the system. At one point I wanted to do an episode on their chop salad because it's it's its own great logistics story. So go check out the Oxford Cafe if you're in the area. Follow James Shields on Twitter Ames A. Shields. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmen, Dash O' Bennett at DashBot, and Kalebrooks at Kalebrooks. For more Odd Lots content go to bloomberg.com oddlots we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes and you can chat about all of these topics 24. 7 in our Discord, Discord, GG Oddlots.

[Tracey Alloway]

And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it when we talk about the business of carbs, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg Channel on Apple Podcast and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

[Joe Wiesenthal]

Sam.

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg? Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context, and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.