How to Move Freight Across the Icy Roads of Alaska

Summary

Podcast Summary: Odd Lots – How to Move Freight Across the Icy Roads of Alaska

Episode Details:

• Title: How to Move Freight Across the Icy Roads of Alaska
• Host/Author: Bloomberg's Odd Lots, Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway
• Release Date: August 13, 2025

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Introduction and Setting the Stage

In this episode of Odd Lots, hosts Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway delve into the intricate logistics of moving freight across Alaska's challenging and icy terrains. Recorded in Anchorage, Alaska, the episode offers listeners a firsthand look into the unique aspects of the Alaskan trucking industry, highlighting both its historical roots and modern-day operations.

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Guest Introduction: Josh Norem and Sourdough Express

The conversation centers around Josh Norem, the president and owner of Sourdough Express, a family-owned trucking company with a storied history in Alaska.

• Josh Norem ([02:51]): “Sourdough Express is a trucking company in Alaska. All of our assets are based in Alaska. My family bought it in the 1920s. It's been in existence since 1898.”

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History of Sourdough Express

Josh provides a comprehensive overview of the company's evolution:

• Early Operations: Initially reliant on dog sleds and packers during the gold mining boom in Fairbanks ([04:15]).
• Transition to Trucks: By the 1920s, the introduction of makeshift roads and trucks began to shape the company's trajectory.
• Diversification: Expansion into heating fuel and essential supplies as Fairbanks developed into a significant community hub ([04:15]).

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Operations and Main Routes

Sourdough Express specializes in oil field-related freight, accounting for 70% of their operations.

• Primary Routes:
  • Anchorage to Fairbanks to Prudhoe Bay ([05:23])
  • South to the Kenai Peninsula
• Logistical Flow: Freight often arrives via rail from Seattle to Fairbanks before being transported to remote oil fields ([05:23]).

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Shipping Methods and Customer Decisions

Josh outlines the various transportation options available to customers:

1. Overland via Alcan Highway through Canada:
   • Pros: Quickest route ([06:21]).
2. Steamship Services:
   • Frequency: Twice weekly from Tacoma to Anchorage ([06:21]).
   • Duration: Approximately three days ([07:06]).
3. Barge Services:
   • Pros: Economical but slower ([06:21]).

Customer Considerations:

• Speed vs. Cost: Balancing the urgency of delivery with budget constraints.
• Infrastructure: Limited fuel stops necessitate strategic planning ([12:29]).

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Costs and Logistical Challenges

Fuel Costs:

• Higher Prices: More expensive in Alaska due to limited refining capacity ([12:29]).
• Strategic Fueling: Trucks are equipped with large fuel tanks (300 gallons) to cover extensive distances between stops ([13:01]).

Asset Pricing:

• Sales Tax: Absence of sales tax in Alaska offsets some costs, maintaining price stability for goods and equipment ([11:32]).

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Technology in Alaskan Trucking

Josh highlights the critical role of technology in ensuring safety and efficiency:

• Cameras in Trucks: Provide real-time monitoring and aid in incident analysis ([22:00]).
• Communication Tools:
  • CB Radios: Essential for coordinating on the roads and fostering camaraderie ([10:00]).
  • Facebook Groups: Serve as informal networks for real-time updates on road conditions and hazards ([24:28]).

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Safety and Emergencies

Operating in Alaska presents unique safety challenges:

• Weather Conditions: Abrupt avalanches ([22:00]), wildlife encounters (caribou, wolves, bears) ([23:02]).
• Emergency Response:
  • Limited Infrastructure: Reliance on fellow truckers for immediate assistance ([36:27]).
  • Helicopter Limitations: Weather and landing constraints limit their effectiveness ([36:10]).

Notable Incident:

• Avalanche Event: A truck was trapped by an avalanche near Atigan Pass, highlighting the unpredictable dangers of Alaskan roads ([22:00]).

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Business Climate and Economy

Josh discusses the current state and cyclical nature of the Alaskan economy:

• Steady Business: Recent investments by oil companies have stabilized economic growth ([15:08]).
• Cyclical Industry: Similar to historical patterns with gold and oil booms, the trucking industry experiences boom and bust cycles ([16:43]).
• Sourdough Express's Resilience: Conservative financial management and customer loyalty have sustained the company through economic fluctuations ([17:54]).

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Truck Driving Lifestyle and Community

The Alaskan trucking lifestyle is portrayed as both rewarding and challenging:

• Isolation: Long hours alone on the road can lead to feelings of loneliness, contradicting the romanticized view from media like Ice Road Truckers ([35:19]).
• Community Support: Strong bonds among truckers foster a supportive environment, crucial for safety and morale ([24:59]).
• Family and Culture: Emphasis on family units and the appeal of Alaska's natural beauty keep generations rooted in the state ([20:45]).

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Challenges and Constraints

Primary Constraint: Availability of work linked to oil field operations is the main limitation for business growth ([28:55]).

Driver Shortage: Contrary to trends in the lower 48 states, Josh asserts that there isn't a significant truck driver shortage in Alaska. Instead, the issue lies in how other companies treat their drivers, whereas Sourdough Express prioritizes driver well-being ([31:09]).

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Future Prospects

Automation: The possibility of self-driving trucks in Alaska remains low due to the complex and ever-changing road conditions ([32:06]).

Technological Advancements: Continued reliance on effective communication networks and possibly enhanced technologies to further mitigate risks ([24:26]).

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Conclusion

Odd Lots’s episode on Alaska’s trucking industry provides an in-depth exploration of the logistical, economic, and cultural facets that define freight movement in one of the world’s most challenging environments. Through the insights of Josh Norem and the operations of Sourdough Express, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how freight is navigated across icy roads, the resilience required to sustain such operations, and the tight-knit community that supports truckers in Alaska.

Notable Quotes:

• Josh Norem ([03:38]): “Sourdough is basically a long term Alaskan. So somebody who's been here for many years or experienced winters here and really understand the culture of Alaska.”
• Josh Norem ([08:35]): “Drivers that are willing to learn and learn from the people who've been doing it for years and years.”
• Josh Norem ([31:09]): “Sourdough, we've always tried to treat our drivers as best as possible. We give them schedules that are family friendly and we understand that life happens.”

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This comprehensive overview encapsulates the essential discussions and insights shared in the episode, offering a valuable resource for those interested in the complexities of Alaskan freight logistics.

Transcript

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

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[Karen Moscow]

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[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

[Tracy Alloway]

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I'm so Tracy. We're here in Alaska. We're still here in Alaska.

[Tracy Alloway]

We are. It's beautiful. It's stunning and it's bright. It stays light until like 11pm it's.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So bright I couldn't believe it. It's amazing. Alaska in August. It's the best. It's already such a fascinating place to me.

[Tracy Alloway]

What iconic industries will we be talking about while we're in Alaska, Joe?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Well, there's many industries that we've hit over and over. Obviously we like to talk to people in the trucking industry for all kinds of reasons. But also like one of the things that I'm aware of is that Alaska has its own distinct trucking culture. I think there was a reality TV show about it. Right?

[Tracy Alloway]

Ice Road Truckers.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, right. Wasn't that based here?

[Tracy Alloway]

Yes. I have questions about how realistic that actually is. But you are absolutely right that trucking in Alaska is this sort of well known thing. Maybe because of the reality TV show, but when you think about trucking in Alaska, you think like these crazy like mud riddled roads and people having to cart these like huge payloads of. I don't know. I heard it was mostly dirt in the summertime cause people are doing a lot of road construction. But I don't know that much about it.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I don't know that much about it. Trucking is a fun topic to cover A, because it's just an interesting logistical industry in any environment. And then B, I don't think anyone has a better pulse on the economy at any given moment than people in trucking. So while we're here in Alaska for all these obvious reasons, we gotta talk trucking.

[Tracy Alloway]

I think you have to come clean, Joe, and admit your secret dream to become an owner operator working in Alaska. I don't even know if that's possible.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Well, let's find out. I'm really excited to say we really do have the perfect guest. We're gonna be speaking with Josh Norem. He is the president and own owner of Sourdough Express. Josh, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[Josh Norem]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Joe Weisenthal]

What does Sourdough Express mean and what is the company?

[Josh Norem]

So Sourdough Express is a trucking company in Alaska. All of our assets are based in Alaska. My family bought it in the 1920s. It's been in existence since 1898. So we're celebrating 127 years this year. We are a all service trucking company. So we run their haul road dice roads up in Prudhoe Bay. We, we haul between Anchorage and Fairbanks, which are the two main population centers in Alaska. We also own a moving and storage company that focuses on DoD military members moving in and out of Alaska's military bases.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Wow.

[Tracy Alloway]

What does sourdough actually mean in this context? Because I hear Sourdough Express and I think, are you like, you know, driving around huge, huge loads of baked goods?

[Josh Norem]

Yeah, most people think that we're a bakery. But no, Sourdough is a basically a long term Alaskan. So somebody who's been here for many years or experienced winters here and really understand the culture of Alaska and understand what it takes to live here.

[Tracy Alloway]

So just one more question before we dig into the now, but you said your family bought this company in the 1920s and it's existed into the late 1800s. What was it actually in the early 1900s? Because I assume you weren't, you know, it wasn't big trucks back then.

[Josh Norem]

Yeah. So most of the freight coming into Alaska then was gold mining and they were coming from Dawson City. And so the owner, Bob Ellis, ended up coming into Alaska and establishing in Fairbanks. And, and my family was working in and out of the company through that time and ended up purchasing it in 1923. And the first years was not trucks, it was dog sleds and sleds and I mean packers and walking the trails with the freight. And by the 1920s the pictures show that There are trucks and makeshift roads that they're traveling on, but most of it was not far. It was makeshift trails that they were getting where they needed to go to their mining claims. And. And then as the community established in Fairbanks, we continued to grow and moved heavily into heating fuel and the different supplies that people needed to live in that climate.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I already want to do this for, like, three hours. Like, right. Like, we could just, like, let's just talk.

[Tracy Alloway]

Let's just start in 1920, decade by.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Decade, through the history. I'm already fascinated. All right, but let's just take it up to today. What are the main goods that you move? Whether it's industrial, whatever it is, what are the main things that are moved and what are like the. The big routes?

[Josh Norem]

So 70% of our freight is oil field related. And it's going up to Prudhoe Bay. And generally it's coming into the port of Anchorage and traveling up the road through Fairbanks to Prudhoe Bay. A lot of it runs on the rail from Seattle area, Tacoma, up through the waterways to Alaska. And then from there, they rail it to Fairbanks, and we pick it up there and continue the journey to Prudhoe. We do a lot of stuff down south to the Kenai. And basically anywhere on the road system that needs freight, our trucks will travel. We do not leave Alaska because we feel that our assets are best used here for. For the freight that's local. So most of our freight that comes from outside is coming on the steamships that come into Alaska four times a week.

[Tracy Alloway]

If I'm a customer. I mean, obviously this will vary by customer, but what are the decisions I'm making or what are the constraints when I'm deciding whether to send something by road, by by rail, versus a ferry?

[Josh Norem]

So there's generally three options that people look at. One is over the road up the Alcan highway through Canada, and that one is generally the quickest because you can have a driver take it from point A to point B, do the checkpoints, and make it into Alaska the quickest. The second fastest is steamship. And so there's two companies that run two boats each, and they go from Tacoma to Anchorage twice a week. And both of them are sailing on Sundays and Tuesdays into Alaska. So I always tell people that if you want to get fresh groceries, go after the boats come, because that's when everything shows up. There's also barge, which. That travels more on a set schedule. And there's a few different barge companies in Alaska, and that's slower freight. But it's generally more economical to ship. So there's different options.

[Joe Weisenthal]

The ship from Tacoma to Alaska, how long does that take?

[Josh Norem]

Three days.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay. You said all your assets stay in Alaska. How long are these routes? How long are the drivers on the road? Like, talk to us about those routes that they do and how tough that is.

[Josh Norem]

So as grueling as the roads are in Alaska, the truckers actually have a pretty decent schedule compared to lower 48 truckers. All the routes can pretty much be a two day route no matter which way you go. So the ones going from Fairbanks to prudhoe bay, those ones generally leave Fairbanks on a Monday. They go to prudhoe bay, they deliver their load, spend the night, and then come back on a Tuesday. So they're getting home every other night doing that route.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That is better than a lot of drivers in the lower 48.

[Josh Norem]

Yep. And most of them have done lower 48 freight and love that they're home that consistently. The other routes are generally Anchorage to fairbanks, Fairbanks to anchorage. And those ones you can do round trip in a night. So those guys are home almost every night.

[Tracy Alloway]

Are there special skills you need to be a trucker in Alaska versus elsewhere or in the lower 48? Do I have to be really, really good at taking chains on and off my tires?

[Josh Norem]

You definitely chain up consistently in Alaska. The thing that we look for the most in our drivers is teachability. Drivers that are willing to learn and learn from the people who've been doing it for years and years. There's a lot of things that they teach you in truck driving school and down in lower 48 that technically is the correct way to do something. But in the situations they're in, it can cause issues that you can't recover from. So there's a lot of small technical.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Give us some examples. What are some things that people encounter here that they don't encounter elsewhere? Sure.

[Josh Norem]

One of the big things is running for hills. A lot of times in the states, people, they'll run and get speed up for hills. But in prudeau, the road there, it's almost critical that you run for hills.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And what does that mean?

[Tracy Alloway]

You have to speed up.

[Josh Norem]

So you have speed up to get over the hill. So you know you're coming up on a hill and everyone has call outs. So everyone has rados in their truck and they're calling out truck, whatever's coming up the hill. And so everyone waits at the top and basically you just get speed and then your momentum carries you as far as you can before you start downshifting. And it's critical in the wintertime because if you start slow, you will never gain traction. So you will be stopping and chaining at every single hill. Where there's generally a few hills you chain consistently, if you run at them, you can usually momentum up and over a lot of them without having to do that. So it saves a significant amount of time and, and energy for the driver having to get out and. And chaining up on that road is not a fun experience. Generally it's 20, 30 below, and once you get up further north, it's windy and it's dark. It's not a pleasant experience. So any trick that, that you can incorporate really help their time and their quality of life.

[Tracy Alloway]

You mentioned the radio just then, and this was going to be one of my questions, which is like, are people able to use the radio out here and are they on like citizens band or something else?

[Josh Norem]

They're on CB radios just like anywhere. And they have channels that they run on. A lot of trucks have. We call them the big radio, which goes further. And they can. It's usually like more of a chatting station, but on the CBs, is there.

[Tracy Alloway]

A lot of chatting just because you're in Alaska and you're sort of on your own on a big highway something.

[Josh Norem]

There's a lot of chatting, but everyone knows each other. So generally on that road, if you go up in one day and you come back in a day, you're passing all your friends either way at some point. So they all know each other by their truck, what they look like, they can tell on the radio. So a lot of it's just them checking with each other. How's your trip going? Beautiful day. Man, that hill was icy, whatever it is. Hey, there's. There's caribou ahead. A lot of it's just banter back and forth between friends on the radio that help each other out. The haul road is very special in the sense that if a truck is pulled over and has an issue, everybody's going to stop.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Oh, that's cool.

[Josh Norem]

Nobody's going to drive by him without checking to make sure he's doing okay and, and that he doesn't need help. So that's a pretty special thing that you don't see everywhere. I know there's, there's some places that people will stop and help, but in Alaska it's almost critical that you do because somebody could be in.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah.

[Josh Norem]

In trouble.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So someone told me that like, used cars are more expensive in Alaska. I don't know if that's True. Actually, I haven't gone to verify that. But I'm just curious about the cost of the physical. Your physical assets. Is there a significant price gap between just what you pay for any sort of piece of equipment, whether it's the truck or some part, et cetera, in Alaska versus the rest of the country?

[Josh Norem]

Sometimes it's hard to compare because we don't have a sales tax.

[Tracy Alloway]

Oh.

[Josh Norem]

So without a sales tax, a lot of times that reduces the price right back to where the cost of getting the goods here is offset by not having that sales tax. So I can honestly say that I've not noticed a huge difference in prices between food, used cars, a lot of the stuff that we ship up business wise, like big trucks, and that we are dealing with the shipping ourselves. So depending how we want to drive it or what we want to do with that, we're paying the cost at manufacture and. And hauling it up.

[Tracy Alloway]

What about fuel costs? Because I guess there's two things. There's the price of fuel out here, and I know there's a big oil industry, But I don't know if you actually refine that much. So I don't know what gas prices actually look like. But then secondly, I imagine when you're out in middle of nowhere Alaska, there probably aren't that many places to have fuel stops for. And I guess maybe you have to be more strategic about where you're stopping to refuel.

[Josh Norem]

Yeah. So I would say fuel is definitely more expensive than say in Texas or the place where they have big refineries. We do refine some fuel in Alaska. Not a lot. We have the pipeline going right through the middle and a lot of it just goes south and gone. But they do refine some. I don't think we save on price by doing that. It's just more of an efficiency thing. Fuel stops are extremely important. So our big trucks that go to Prudhoe Bay have 300 gallon tanks on them. And there's only one gas station between leaving Fairbanks and Prudhoe bay, which is almost 500 miles.

[Tracy Alloway]

Wow.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So generally you don't want to run out of fuel.

[Josh Norem]

You don't want to run out of fuel. There's not a lot of. A lot of options. And people are used to driving in the country and they see farms and they see, okay, there's a truck stop. And when you leave these communities like Fairbanks and you go north, there's nothing. It's just woods. And there's no one to help except the other truckers on the road. You'll see the tourists and the hunters, but there's nowhere to stop. So drivers, when they pull over, they're stopping on the side of like a pull off, just a little spot to stop. But there's no bathrooms or showers or anything like that. So planning your trips and where you get fuel. You can get fuel in Prudo, but it's more than double the cost of fuel in Fairbanks. So you definitely plan your fuel and carry a lot of it.

[Tracy Alloway]

Foreign.

[Karen Moscow]

Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So we're recording this August 5, 2025 how's business right now, or how does it compare to August 5, 2024?

[Josh Norem]

Business has been very good and very steady. A few of the different oil companies in Alaska have put a lot of investment and a lot of bets on the future and investing.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Chris Wright, the energy secretary, was I think in Alaska not too long ago.

[Josh Norem]

Like we had a big delegation come up here and they went to Prudhoe to pumping the gas line up the potential gas line that they're trying to get approved. But the overall investment in the oil fields and the downstream effects of that of people coming up to work those and the good jobs it creates that then trickles through the rest of the economy. So a lot of our business is also groceries and lumber and housing supplies and basically anything that a worker on the slope that we also provide drilling pipe to, they still need everything back at their house when they're on their off shift. So the overall economy has been healthy. There hasn't been a huge growth, I don't think, but I think it's replaced a lot of what was on a downward slide 5, 10 years ago.

[Tracy Alloway]

So one of the things we've learned from doing all these trucking episodes over and over again is that it is an extremely cyclical industry. And supposedly a lot of that, at least in the lower 48, is because there are really low barriers to entry. So if people see freight rates start to go up, they think, oh, I'm going to get a truck, I'm going to get my CDL and then I'm going to make the big money driving this truck around. I'm curious, in Alaska, is it the same way? Do you see those sorts of boom bust cycles where you have lots of new entrants flood the market and then freight rates start going down and people start going out of business and then eventually you go through the cycle once again?

[Josh Norem]

I would say Alaska's entire economy is that exact situation. And so in trucking we have company drivers and most companies that are at its scale that we are at, have company drivers, but they also use owner operators or they use contractors which they hire on for the busy times. And those contractors over the years have become very flexible. So when times are not good, a lot of times they'll head south. When you need them again, you call them and they'll come back up and start hauling again. So I would say that people do buy more trucks and try to start their businesses during the really good times. But a lot of examples of truckers who've done that and not been successful, when it does decline, it seems like we've done it enough that the truckers are getting more savvy to know how much they can spend. And instead of buying five trucks, they buy one truck or two trucks and they keep those trucks busy with the flexibility of going out and finding other work down in the states. Because as an owner operator you can go out of business very quickly if there's a few slow months.

[Joe Weisenthal]

How has Sourdough Express state in business so long? Like, you know, at this point I'm sure you like, have there been any near death experiences in the last century or any close calls in there?

[Josh Norem]

Yeah. So through the generations, I'm fifth generation owner of Sourdough and my business partner is my mother and she's a CPA and been a CFO for sourdough for 30 years. And she's extremely conservative. So she's told me stories of the history of the generations and her ability to save and plan for the future for those bad times, I think is why we've been so successful. When the big Shiny loads are sitting out there. We don't always run at them. We let those go, and we continue servicing our customers that have been dedicated customers and reliable freight for years. And with her management of those assets over time, I think it's been very successful. But I can tell you that we're in a minority in that sense where there's been a lot of trucking companies come and go over the years that we've seen come up and go down. And I would say her ability to plan has been the biggest asset to sour in the last 30 years.

[Tracy Alloway]

What would be a shiny load in that context? Is it like, you know, some oil company needs something like, right. Some crucial component for a pipeline or something, and they need it right now, and so they're paying loads of money.

[Josh Norem]

That could be an example. I mean, it's just anybody who needs something very quickly that requires a lot of assets, and so sometimes they dangle that out there. And trucking companies, well, I'll go buy 10 trucks, and I can do that. 2015 was a good example of where the oil companies had come and said, hey, we're going to produce all this oil, and there's a good chance for growth. We ended up, everyone purchased trucks and got ready, and then the oil prices crashed. And so no fault to them, but they couldn't sell oil at a profit. And so they had to pull back the loads and coming back around, I think everyone was a little more cautious. But we've also learned with them as a group that works together, because if we're not successful, they're not successful and vice versa, that we're able to plan better and adjust how the loads work to make sure that the freight gets there without that risk of the boom bust. So we've done a lot better job, I'd say, In the last 10 years of planning those cycles and how that's going to work.

[Tracy Alloway]

Joe, I feel like I have to say that we are in Anchorage, and so listeners might hear the train going by. Just that it's very atmospheric.

[Joe Weisenthal]

It's very atmospheric. And actually sort of walking through Anchorage, you turn your head and you see, like, ports facilities and you see oil facilities right there. And so it does feel like just walking through. Here we are in this hub of logistics, industry, and commerce, and you can certainly hear it. You know what I'm curious about? How does a family keep people in Alaska? Because I have to imagine that a lot of young people, generally speaking, it's like, yeah, some tough, dark, long winters and maybe get attracted to, like, oh, it might be nice to move to Los Angeles or something like that sometime. Talk to us about, like, just the culture of like, who stay. The type of people who stay in Alaska over generations.

[Josh Norem]

Yeah, no, I think that a lot of people have been here for a long time. They like what Alaska has to offer outside of the cities. So a lot of people you talk to have cabins and have places they go and spend time and they build those family units that are strong. And based on these experiences they've had together, a lot of people, when they graduate high school, do go out to the states and they go to college and they get their degree. And my sister's a good example where she went out and she was gone for 10 years and decided that she could be an eye doctor in Alaska just as easy as she could be in Oklahoma. So she ended up moving back with her family, more so to just get that family unit that she had been looking for. I think that a lot of people like the community that it has to offer. And for some reason, the misery of living here in the winter, I think brings people together too. I'm not quite sure on that, but I've been here for a while.

[Tracy Alloway]

Well, in the summer it is very, very nice. I have to say. I haven't seen it in the winter, but right now it's beautiful.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You know what the flip side of 11:30?

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, I know sundown is? You know, I lived in London and it getting dark at 3pm in December was bad enough. I imagine it's even worse here. Okay, this is my moment to just ask, can we get some ice road trucker type stories? Like tell us some of the hairiest moments when you know you or one of your drivers is on like the Dalton highway or something like that.

[Josh Norem]

So I've driven the road twice in my career. I got my CDO when I was 19 and I mostly worked in the moving side of our company, Moving and Storage. And so I never did the ice road long term, but I did drive a couple loads up there and got to experience what that was like as a driver. The benefit to our trucks now is we have cameras in every truck. So when stuff does happen, we have very good vantage points of exactly what that is. And it was probably four years ago. The best camera footage I've seen is we were climbing Atigan Pass, which is on the Dalton, and out of the corner of the camera it was night, but you could see snow starting to come and an entire avalanche came down and pushed the truck up against the guardrail. And when everything Came still the snow was over the front and he was just sitting in an avalanche that then he had to wait for the loaders to come up and dig him back out. We've had a few of those avalanche type stories. That was the biggest one. We consistently see wildlife every day. You can see caribou or wolves or bears on the road and moving out in front of the trucks.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Do wildlife pose a danger? You talk about having to chain the tires when you're out. Like, is there any risk? You're just like, when you're out of the cab. Is there any danger to the driver in those situations?

[Josh Norem]

Yes, and they've gotten smarter over the years. Back in the 70s and 80s, when it was kind of the good old days, they used to feed a lot of the animals, I think, and the animals got very used to that. And we have a lot of pictures of bears standing up to windows and taking food back in the 70s. Drivers have gotten a lot smarter since then about inviting the wildlife to the trucks. And there are notices.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Those were the good old days, weren't they? This is what they took from us. This is what they took from us.

[Josh Norem]

But they do post notices, and you'll hear on the Facebook groups and on the communications that, hey, there's a bear at milepost 212. Make sure you watch out when you're training up. Or, I mean, there are situations. They had a wolf problem last year at one of the construction sites that the pilot cars had to really be paying attention to. And so there are risks to that. Generally, it's not an issue. But over the years, there definitely have been stories.

[Tracy Alloway]

You know, you mentioned cameras in the trucks, and this reminded me, but is there technology that people are using out in Alaska that might mitigate some of the, like, Alaska specific dangers. Do you have better weather forecasting technology or do you pay more attention to the forecasts? Like, are there specific things you're doing with tech that might make it easier for your drivers?

[Josh Norem]

I would say Facebook groups.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Oh, say more about that. This is really interesting.

[Josh Norem]

So Facebook groups is just an example, but text threads and the different communication between the drivers that are traveling it every day, they all have their groups of guys they know, and, hey, I just went through this milepost. It was really bad. You might as well stay home until tomorrow. It'll get better by tomorrow. And so their feedback is way quicker than the weather, way more accurate, and their ability to get that through the road is uncanny. So I think that camaraderie between the drivers is really what keeps that Road safer.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So I take it there were wildfires this summer in Alaska.

[Josh Norem]

This summer was a dry beginning of the summer and there were a few that were very close to the road. There's two ways to get from Anchors to Fairbanks. And so we had to send our trucks the longer route this summer for about a week because they had so much activity next to the road and it wasn't a reliable route to send the trucks to get stuff through. So we had to deal with that over the years. A few years ago, south of Anchorage, there was a lot of them that it was delaying the drivers on a nightly basis, waiting for openings to get through.

[Tracy Alloway]

Oh yeah. On this topic, is there seasonality in this business in the sense that some routes are only open at certain times of the year. So I heard, for instance, some roads have to be frozen for the trucks to go over them. And then I also heard that there are some trucks going over actual frozen water. So you have to wait for the water to freeze before you can actually get to the specific part of the world.

[Josh Norem]

So the, the big ones that everyone talks about are the ice roads up in Prudhoe Bay. And most of those are not actually frozen lakes or rivers that they're crossing. There are some, but most of it is they're building up the ice to protect the tundra so that when the ice does melt, there's no damage to the tundra. So if you fly over four wheeler trails there in the summer, you can see where all those vehicles went. But if you go up to Perudo and fly over the oil fields, you can see no trace of trucks because. Because they build those roads up so strong. They do go out on the ice in certain areas, but it's very controlled and very measured.

[Joe Weisenthal]

There was a Netflix movie about that, I think a few years ago there was like, it was not a reality.

[Tracy Alloway]

Show about protecting tundras or about icebergs.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Just about like those, like the literal, like going over the frozen water and stuff like that. I forgot about it. It was really stressful.

[Josh Norem]

They always in the shows and the reality shows, they obviously dramatic.

[Joe Weisenthal]

They over bake a little bit.

[Josh Norem]

They over bake a little bit. And no, nobody would go on them if they were that unsafe.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, in the movie it made it look like it was a 50% chance in any given time of like making.

[Josh Norem]

The volume of trucks that travel on it. And they're, they have dedicated crews that just maintain those roads on a daily basis. It's. It's not something that anybody's willing to risk.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So something I'm curious about is, are the tariffs showing up in any way that you notice in your business? Have they had an effect on anything maybe even with, you know, Alaska Canada trade or anything like that?

[Josh Norem]

We haven't seen significant ones yet in our pricing other than we pre ordered a lot of stuff with the anticipation of tariffs that might not have.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And when you say pre order stuff, is this like equipment or parts or something like that?

[Josh Norem]

Mostly parts. So parts that were specifically tire chains. We ordered a lot of tire chains, a lot of gear that was related to.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You're sitting out, you're still sitting on inventory from some of this that you've pre ordered.

[Josh Norem]

We're prepared for Winter.

[Tracy Alloway]

Foreign.

[Karen Moscow]

Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen.

[Tracy Alloway]

What's the big constraint on your business now? Like if you had to name a single frustration that is stopping you from growing further, what would it be? You know, whether it's labor or, I don't know, know, money available for capital investment regulation, what would it be?

[Josh Norem]

I would say it's probably the availability of work. So the more that they open up the oil fields and allow us to to produce on them, I think that's going to be the biggest factor to growing all of the businesses in Alaska. They've proven over and over again that they can continually do it safely and that we're one of the cleanest producers in the world. And so as they open those up and responsibly start producing them, that's what grows the Alaska economy is when we construct those sites and then produce over the long term the oil pipeline since it was built has declined in. In volume that has traveled through it and for the last couple years is the first time it's upticked again. So that's a very positive thing for Alaska because it's kind of the lifeline of almost all Alaskans is the oil and gas industry. DoD is not very far behind with the Department of Defense spending, but. But for what really drives Alaska, it's oil and gas development.

[Tracy Alloway]

So you said DOD just then. And I noticed at the airport there was like a military lounge. So I guess like, military is a big presence here, right? Like, what exactly is going on? I should know this already. But like, what is happening here?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Looking over the water at the Russians.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, no, I get that. But like, what exactly is here?

[Josh Norem]

So in Anchorage, which is where we're sitting now, there's a joint Air Force and army base that's fairly large. If you go north, the Fairbanks, there's an air Force base and an army base, separated, but also very large. That that air Force base is used for all the training for a lot of our allies. They come there in the summer and you see fighter jets parked all over and they're doing war games outside of Fairbanks. They have Fort Greely, which is missile silos in there. It's more of a protection base. And then on the other side they have clear Air Force base, which is more of a identification base where they. They're able to monitor closer to our enemies.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And I'm going to ask a hot button question that I know divides much of the freight community, but is there a truck driver shortage?

[Josh Norem]

I don't think there's a truck driver shortage. I think that there is an industry that has put truck drivers in positions over the years where maybe some of them have left their profession or told their kids not to join the profession. I think there's a lot of quality truck drivers out of there. I think there's a lot of companies who don't treat their truck drivers the way they should be treated. And so that they have a shortage of employees, more so to do with their policies and the requirements of what they expect of their drivers rather than what they give back to them. So, Sourdough, we've always tried to treat our drivers as best as possible. We give them schedules that are family friendly and we understand that life happens. And so I think that's been a huge benefit for us. And not just taking drivers for granted, that they just keep coming through the door to really develop your drivers and make them the high quality drivers that they can be.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I have Another hot button question. You know, families owned.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's going to be self driving ice.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Trucks in 100 years. Your family's had the company about 100 years. Will there be human drivers in 100 years?

[Josh Norem]

I have no opinion on that one. I think that would be a very hard road to do an actual self driving truck. I think if they came up with a some sort of rail system or something, they could, they could potentially do it. But it would require an extreme amount of investment to set that up. Just because the train's so extreme, that road does not have lines on it. The road shoulders change every mile. The snow, how they plow it changes every year. So I think it'd be an extremely, extremely hard road to send a truck driving itself up.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Have you seen any effect yet from labor related policies yet from this administration that in any way has like affected the business for better or worse?

[Josh Norem]

No, we have not.

[Tracy Alloway]

If you're in a bar in Fairbanks or wherever with a bunch of other sourdoughers, what do you sourdough people?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Sourdough?

[Tracy Alloway]

Sourdough.

[Josh Norem]

Sourdoughs.

[Tracy Alloway]

Sourdoughs and trucking buddies. What's getting you guys riled up? Like, what is the topic of conversation du jour?

[Josh Norem]

Most of it goes from stories on the road back to family camping trips and hunting trips and fishing trips and what they're doing on their off time. The trucking industry in Alaska pays very well. So most of the drivers have the ability to buy snow machines and four wheelers and go out and experience what Alaska actually has to offer besides city life. And most truckers are very independent and they like that lifestyle. So I would say it's. It's mostly comparing camping stories.

[Joe Weisenthal]

If there's someone who's just like a young guy looking for direction in the world, if they come to Alaska, can they probably find a job eventually if they go through the CDL training, etc. Like yeah, is this someone in the lower 48 looking for direction, looking for maybe some adventure and excitement and decent pay and that sort of lifestyle? Like is there demand for it that right now?

[Josh Norem]

So we've learned over the years that a lot of people have this dream of Alaska and until they come here, they don't quite realize what that dream is. They just know that it's this vast place that they want to go and spend time. So we always recommend people come and visit it not in the summer, but in the winter to make sure it's a place that they want to be. And then we have a lot of very good Truck driving schools. So if they come without a CDL in three weeks you can get your cdl. And there is a lot of opportunity locally in the different cities to learn to be a truck driver. And so patience is the biggest one. And people knowing that the first day they get in that truck, they're not driving the haul road, they're going to be delivering produce to Fred Meyers or they're going to be delivering lumber to Spenard Builder Supply. It's patience and then also the like I had mentioned earlier, the willingness to learn from the experienced drivers who have done it for years and years. And drivers are very generous with their knowledge. As long as you're willing to learn it as soon as you start pushing back. Most drivers don't want to teach anymore because it's not worth their time. So there's definitely an opportunity to grow your career and make a life in Alaska. You just have to be patient.

[Tracy Alloway]

I'm going to ask the flip side of Joe's question which is is there anything that people are underestimating about the Alaskan truck driver experience or something that people might misconceptions about when they're starry eyed youthful would be Alaska truck drivers.

[Josh Norem]

So if you're talking ice road trucking, which is what the show is based on, I think that the show romanticized it in the way that it's kind of this very fun and entertaining thing. But the road from Fairbanks to Peru is 12 hours long and you're by yourself the whole time. So I think a lot of people underestimate how much time they spend alone. And you're not sleeping at truck stops, you're not seeing people in person, you're talking to them on the radio, but you're not getting that interaction that a lot of truckers in the states are used to walking in. You have one spot, Coldfoot, Alaska to stop and see people. But I think the lonesomeness of it and then coming back to the terminal and going home to a. In the winter it's very dark. I think the darkness is what really drives a lot of people back out of Alaska. The cold's not fun either. But you can turn the heater on, you can put a jacket on.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Actually, I did have one more question related to this, which is you mentioned it's like you're truly in the middle of nowhere. There aren't gas stations anywhere. If there is some sort of an accident or something like that, what are the sort of like state level infrastructure for like emergency response out there? Like can is there A helicopter that like.

[Tracy Alloway]

Helicopter.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah.

[Josh Norem]

How do they get. State troopers have helicopters that they will fly out. The problem with helicopters is you got to be able to land it somewhere. And a lot of the roads not wide enough for. In a position where they can land. So generally the first responders are other truckers, and a lot of them have training on what to do with an injured driver or. Or something like that. You can call the different towns on either side of it, but I mean, it could be eight hours before you see an actual ambulance or something. So a lot of it is very remote and requires the help of your. Your fellow truck driver or.

[Tracy Alloway]

And weather restricted, too.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Right.

[Tracy Alloway]

Like, if you're in trouble because there's a storm, then a helicopter is not going to be able to get to you.

[Josh Norem]

This year the road washed out too, but it wasn't for very long. But they've had years where the. The road gets shut down by avalanches and there's a bunch of drivers stacked up and the road's too small to turn around, so you're stuck facing the avalanche. And it's. It's been a couple of days, or they. They send fuel trucks out to go fuel the truck so they can continue running and. And staying safe and hand out food. But most of the drivers carry a.

[Tracy Alloway]

Few drivers create like a little camp for themselves. I have this vision in my head of like a group of like 12 truck drivers just like.

[Karen Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tracy Alloway]

Getting along in the wilderness while they wait for the avalanche to get cleared.

[Josh Norem]

I definitely think there's probably a lot of stuff that they. They don't feed back to us. I don't know if a campfire is.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Included, but Josh Noram, president and owner of Sourdough Express, thank you so much for coming on Outlook.

[Josh Norem]

Yeah, thank you guys for having me.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Tracy, that was a lot of fun. You know, it's funny thinking about, like, you know, obviously Alaska as, you know, a literal gold rush. And then this idea that the whole state is a big boom bus cycle. Right. Because if you start with gold mining and then you're very levered to the oil industry. Yeah. So it's like trucking is like truly the tail end of the whip.

[Tracy Alloway]

It sounds like cyclical squared.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, cyclical squared. Yeah. Right.

[Tracy Alloway]

The other thing I was thinking about is, you know, in terms of new technology, Josh mentioned the cameras, but also, you gotta imagine something like starlink would have a big impact on drivers quality of life. If you're driving out where there's no cell service, maybe if you have starlink, you finally Have a chance to download a Netflix movie or download all your favorite podcasts so you don't feel so lonely on the road. But then, you know, he mentioned Facebook as just a messaging network for the drivers. And this is something that I really didn't get until like two years ago when I got the house in rural Connecticut, which is like, Facebook is essential in rural parts of the country. Like, that is actually the local network. And that's where when people see a bear coming through, you know, the neighborhood, that's where people post it. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe your, like, neighbor will text you directly or something. But, like, all that local info is going on Facebook.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That is really interesting. Also, like, it's not the first time that trucking specifically is still an industry that runs on like, sort of group chats and WhatsApp pages, WhatsApp channels, et cetera. Like that.

[Tracy Alloway]

Even the message boards.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, the message boards. Like that technology, that power is clearly still deeply embedded into sort of core industrial it's core infrastructure for what makes the economy run.

[Tracy Alloway]

Well, all of logistics. Right. It's Sven in the port in Europe or whatever.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, right, right. And yeah, I mean, as you noted, it really feels like this is a logistics hub. The listeners can literally hear it while we're doing the episode.

[Tracy Alloway]

Oh, yeah. I mean, when you get to the airport, you can already realize it's a logistics hub. Like, I know our producer Dash was talking about people carrying fish through the airport. There's the military lounges in the airport because you have the big military air bases. And when you're coming in, you can see all that infrastructure. So you do get that sense.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah.

[Tracy Alloway]

All right, shall we leave it there?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Let's leave it there.

[Tracy Alloway]

This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at the stalwart. Next time you're shipping oil industry equipment, call up Josh at the Sourdough Express. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at carmenarmon, Dashiell Bennett at dashbot, and Kalebrooks at Kalebrooks. For more Odd Lots content, go to bloomberg.com oddlot where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about these topics 24. 7 in our Discord. Discord. GG odds lots.

[Tracy Alloway]

And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it when Joe and I go to Alaska, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg Channel on Apple Podcast and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

[Karen Moscow]

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning, right in your podcast feed. Hi, I'm Karen Moscow.

[Nathan Hager]

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition. It's your daily 15 minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics and international relations.

[Karen Moscow]

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6am Eastern Time.

[Nathan Hager]

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday. Instead, you get the latest stories with.

[Karen Moscow]

Context, and that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world, with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

[Nathan Hager]

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US Edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

[Karen Moscow]

Find us on Apple, Spotify or anywhere you listen to.