Odd Lots: Jamee Moudud on the Intellectual Roots of Zohranomics

Date: February 21, 2026
Hosts: Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway
Guest: Jamee Moudud, Professor of Economics at Sarah Lawrence College

Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe and Tracy dive into the intellectual history of economic thought to better understand the “heterodox” economic ideas surfacing in New York City’s politics—specifically, those surrounding Mayor Zoran Mamdani’s approach (“Zohranomics”). They’re joined by Professor Jamee Moudud, an expert in law, political economy, and the history of economic thought, to demystify terms like “orthodox” and “heterodox” economics, to critique how neoclassical thinking became dominant, and to examine how politics and law have always shaped economic outcomes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Economic Orthodoxy vs. Heterodoxy

• Snowstorms and Mayors: Joe and Tracy open with a lighthearted reflection on NYC’s new mayor passing the “snowstorm test”—but point out that real judgment will come via economic policies, not snow removal.
• Central Economic Challenges: Affordability is the central topic, and Mamdani's proposals—especially around rent control and government intervention—are the kind that traditional economists often reject as “heterodox.” (03:02)
• Defining the Terms: Tracy admits to limited background in theory, teeing up Jamie to dig into the intellectual roots of today’s economic debates.

2. Intellectual History: From Classical to Neoclassical (07:20–14:15)

What is Economic Orthodoxy?

• Jamie: “The orthodoxy is neoclassical economics. It comes from an intellectual tradition which... is not really what Adam Smith was doing.” (07:35)

• Myth of Adam Smith: Moudud disputes the common notion that Adam Smith is the progenitor of modern neoclassical theory:

  “The expression ‘invisible hand’ appears just once in The Wealth of Nations. Smith’s conception was very different—he saw markets as embedded in institutions and law, not as ‘natural’ or eternal phenomena.” —Jamee Moudud (07:35–09:52)

Classical Political Economy vs. Neoclassical Economics

• Classical (Smith, Ricardo, Marx, Physiocrats): Saw economics as intertwined with politics and law—“the economy is profoundly a product of history.”
• Neoclassical: Treats the economy as timeless, governed by inviolable laws (like gravity), and essentially pre-political—a view that emerged in the late 19th century and became dominant by the post-WWII era.

The Shift to “The Economy as Math”

• Transition: Around the 1940s and post-WWII, economics becomes dominated by mathematicians and engineers, modeling the economy as a machine run by “cyborgs”—pre-programmed, rational and all-knowing agents. (16:15)
• Downsides: By mid-1980s, concerns arise that graduate economics programs are producing “idiot savants”—technically skilled but disconnected from social and historical realities. (18:17)

3. Economics is Always Political

• Institutions: Even as neoclassical economics treats “the economy” as apolitical, political economy’s classical tradition understood markets rest on legal and institutional frameworks.
• Notable Quote:

  “The market is not some place where equal actors meet to create contracts. That was not in Smith, Ricardo, or Marx.”—Jamee Moudud (10:57)

• Law and Social Norms: Laws create the property rights that underpin markets; thus, market outcomes are always already political.
• Example: The rights of industrialists to pollute are legal, not “market failures”—they’re the result of specific laws (30:00).

4. Heterodox Policy in Practice: What About Zohranomics?

• Taxing the Rich and Rent Control:

  “This small increase in the billionaire stock is going to tank the economy? … If so, capitalism would have been dead a long time ago…" —Jamee Moudud (23:26)

  • Moudud notes that progressive taxes and stronger regulations were, in fact, common and coincided with booming postwar economies.
• Orthodoxy as a “False Debate”: The dichotomy between “market vs. intervention” is misleading; in practice, all economies are structured through policy decisions—either implicitly (laissez-faire) or explicitly.
• Affordability as Political: Choosing not to intervene in housing markets is as political as imposing rent control (31:54).

5. Market Failures: A Critique of Neoclassical Framing (29:25–32:00)

• Pollution as Example: Pollution is not just an occasional market failure; it’s ubiquitous and is allowed or restricted via property rights and law.
• Quote:

  “Market failures don’t actually exist… If market failures are ubiquitous, then they’re not ‘failures.’ They’re features set by legal design.” —Jamee Moudud (29:50)

6. How Policy Can Be Evidence-Based, Not Just Ideological

• Neoclassical Policy Is Deductive: Policies arise from theoretical models that often don’t reflect reality.

  “How are you designing a policy based on a theory… which has not been subjected to any kind of intellectual engagement with reality?” —Jamee Moudud (39:29)

• Institutionalist Approach: Draws on historical, social, and legal realities—not just abstract deduction.

7. Contemporary Applications and Limitations (40:40–47:09)

Multiple Paths from the Same Analysis

• Joe: Even if you accept that politics pervades economics, you might conclude that current restrictions (e.g. zoning, labor laws) are what make affordability so hard, and thus liberalizing is warranted.
• Jamie: “That’s always been the case. … There are always impediments. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t push for policy change.” (42:14)
• Lessons from History: Past struggles (like passing progressive taxation) show progress happens despite entrenched opposition.

Limits, Design, and Policy Advice

• Jamie is clear:

  “Of course, there are ways to do this [rent controls, taxes] badly… But you can structure policy with compensations (e.g., tax credits for small landlords) to mitigate harm while pursuing affordability.” (46:11)

8. Why Has Heterodoxy Struggled in the U.S.? (47:09)

• Dominance of Orthodoxy in Public Discourse:

  “Whenever you hear an expert on CNN… they're coming from this idea that markets are prime and everything else follows.… These kinds of [heterodox] ideas are not in the public domain.”—Jamee Moudud

• Professional Training: U.S. economics education rarely requires history, reinforcing the sense of markets as timeless rather than constructed.

9. Europe vs. the U.S. and Constitutional Consequences (48:38–52:38)

• Long Tradition of Municipal Socialism in U.S.: Sewer socialism, New Deal, progressive taxes—much of this history is hidden from the mainstream discourse.
• Postwar Europe: After WWII, European constitutions embedded social and economic rights as bulwarks against fascism; the U.S. constitution, as a “first generation” document, lacks these explicit commitments.

  “Reducing inequality, embedding social and economic rights… super important as an insulation, at least to some extent, against a repetition of those horrors.” —Jamee Moudud (51:00)

10. Relative versus Absolute Gains and Social Costs (52:38–54:42)

• Market Activity: Increases total wealth but also creates social costs.

  “Market activity does generate enormous social wealth, but also enormous social costs. And so then…how to reduce social costs?” —Jamee Moudud (54:42)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Rent Control and Policy Limits:

  “If by that logic, then we shouldn’t have ever done anything anyways... There is going to be opposition.” —Jamee Moudud (45:00)

• On Teaching Economics:

  “If you just present neoclassical economics as ‘economics,’ you leave out any possibility of even understanding the world.” —Jamee Moudud (27:59)

• Joe on the Changing Role of Economists:

  “The toolkit does not entirely exist in economics to solve problems that on paper, look economic.” (57:14)

• On Politics and Economics:

  “The economy itself did not spring forth from the universe. It’s a human construction ... that's a political reality.” —Tracy Alloway (56:54–57:14)

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |----------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:02 | Economists’ disdain for rent control—beginning the heterodoxy thread | | 07:20–09:52 | Adam Smith and the foundations of classical vs. neoclassical economics | | 16:15–18:17 | The mathematical turn in economics, “idiot savants”, and loss of connection with reality | | 23:26 | Taxes on billionaires and the collapse myth | | 29:25–32:00 | Critique of “market failure” as a concept—pollution, law, and property rights | | 42:14 | Political impediments are constant—using history to push change | | 46:11 | Compassionate rent policy—tax credits for small landlords | | 48:38–52:38 | US vs. Europe: constitutions, welfare states, and public memory | | 52:38–54:42 | Markets create both wealth and social costs—how to frame policy responses | | 56:54–57:14 | The deeply political nature of economic systems—Tracy’s summary |

Conclusion & Takeaways

• Economics is Never Apolitical: Moudud urges listeners to recognize that “the market” is always shaped by law and politics. Even supposedly “neutral” policies arise from contests of power and institutional design.
• Orthodoxy is Contingent: The dominance of neoclassical thinking is the product of specific historical, political, and institutional developments, not some immutable truth.
• The Case for Heterodoxy: Zohranomics (and similar approaches) are not unprecedented or irrational—they draw on traditions in political economy long obscured by the rise of mathematical, deductive economics.
• Policy Design is Nuanced: Good policy isn't just about choosing “intervention” or “non-intervention.” It’s about evidence, history, adaptation, and recognizing the ever-present role of law.

For Those Who Haven’t Listened:
This episode contextualizes the heated debate over interventionist policies in NYC with a rich exploration of the intellectual, historical, and political roots of economic theory. Jamee Moudud brings nuanced, evidence-based insight, stressing the importance of understanding economics not only as a set of formulas, but as a product of law, history, and continual negotiation.