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- [00:00]
Marc Reape
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
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- [00:27]
Marc Reape
When.
- [00:27]
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- [01:19]
Bloomberg Audio
Bloomberg Audio.
- [01:21]
Marc Reape
Studios Podcasts, Radio News.
- [01:35]
Joe Weisenthal
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.
- [01:40]
Tracy Alloway
And I'm Tracy Alloway.
- [01:41]
Joe Weisenthal
It's a few weeks ago, but last month Trump was in the. Was in Saudi Arabia. He was in the Middle east and he sold a bunch of chips.
- [01:48]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah, I think the chips announcement was kind of overshadowed by some of the pomp and ceremony around that visit. Did you see the famous hair flipping?
- [01:57]
Joe Weisenthal
No.
- [01:58]
Tracy Alloway
Oh, you didn't see that?
- [01:59]
Joe Weisenthal
What was that?
- [01:59]
Tracy Alloway
So you need to look this up. So when Trump arrived in the uae, part of his big, you know, the greeting and the red carpet getting rolled out for him was a bunch of Emirati women doing a hair flipping dance. I gotta say, I wish I could flip my hair like that, but sadly I cannot.
- [02:16]
Joe Weisenthal
Can I say, like, Trump seems very at home in the Gulf States, you know what I'm saying? Like, it feels like setting aside many other things that there is like a similar sense of aesthetics, grandeur. I was about to say I think he's very comfortable in those countries.
- [02:33]
Tracy Alloway
I was about to say his taste in interior decorating is exactly the same as what you see in palaces and hotels in Saudi Arabia and places like that.
- [02:43]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Absolutely.
- [02:43]
Joe Weisenthal
No, I think just the whole vibe is like, oh, he's like on, he's on home territory. But I think the AI stuff is really interesting. Obviously for a lot of reasons. The US wants to sell more things. One of the things that we can sell in various flavors is AI technology. But there is this weird, like, I don't know what the word cross currents or whatever, which is that we want to sell more stuff and yet we also don't want our stuff to be in the hands of perceived geopolitical rivals. And so we cut off our own sales. China is obviously the most salient example here, but it sort of makes this interesting, interesting tension when we think of the role of AI sales, tech sales, in sort of international relations and diplomacy.
- [03:21]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah, well, I also find this interesting from the uae, slash, Abu Dhabi side of things. Right. Because the uae, it's strategically aligned with the US in many ways, but it's very commercially aligned with China. And you know, you have a lot of Chinese commerce coming through the ports and things like that. So I'm very curious what they see in this deal and how they're navigating those two sides as well.
- [03:47]
Joe Weisenthal
Well, I'm very excited. We have the perfect guest, someone, one of our colleagues who we've had on the podcast before. We're gonna be speaking with Mackenzie Hawkins, tech and geopolitics reporter at Bloomberg News. She's now based in Hong Kong, sadly for us, but thankfully she's staying up late for this recording. Mackenzie, thank you so much for coming back on odd lots.
- [04:06]
Marc Reape
Thanks so much for having me.
- [04:08]
Joe Weisenthal
First of all, why don't you just give us the, the specific details, the salient details as you understand them in terms of this big AI deal that Trump announced when he did his golf tour.
- [04:24]
Marc Reape
So in the four day span or so that Trump was in the Middle east, you saw American tech companies and companies in Gulf nations announce hundreds of billions of dollars worth of AI deals, specifically, many of them focused on AI infrastructure, building out the data centers that house AI chips that are used, train and deploy large language models. And that involved one of the biggest data centers potentially in the world, a project anchored by The Abu Dhabi AI firm G42, with key participation from Oracle, from OpenAI, from Nvidia, huge volumes of Nvidia chip sales going to both the UAE and Saudi Arabia, as well as sales from Nvidia's rival, Advanced Micro Devices. And all told, we sort of ended the week and the deal's announcements actually continued into the following week. We ended this trip going from a world where the two main players with significant AI data center capacity, the US of course, and then China also has major ambitions. And still, even if all of these deals follow through as expected, which is an if the US Will maintain the vast majority of the world's computational power, but we have two new serious players in the UAE and in Saudi Arabia.
- [05:40]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Hmm.
- [05:40]
Tracy Alloway
One thing I know from living in Abu Dhabi for a couple of years is that Abu Dhabi loves building a giant campus with some sort of foreign partner. Like, that is always happening and seems to be happening more and more. But, okay, so from the US Side, you know, the US Wants to be a powerful player in AI and everything that comes with it, chips, data centers, et cetera, and they want to sell that technology to other countries. What's the issue with the deal? Why is it controversial?
- [06:09]
Marc Reape
So there are a couple of sort of categories of disagreement in Washington, if you will. The first is a basic economic competitiveness argument. You had people, especially on the Democratic side of the aisle, saying, you know, why are we building a data center in Abu Dhabi when we could be doing that in Ohio or in Pennsylvania? The response from people who are in.
- [06:28]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Favor of these deals is we are.
- [06:30]
Marc Reape
Building data centers in the U.S. trump is trying to cut red tape to facilitate data center deals across the country and the UAE in particular, because there's now a bilateral arrangement between American and Emirati officials includes this reciprocal investment portion where, you know, for the amount that US Companies are investing in the Gulf nation, we'll get a reciprocal amount on American soil. But there are still some people who say, why wouldn't we do all of this on US Soil for as long as possible? Then there's the China question. And that has been the sort of central debate in the development of US Global export controls on semiconductor chips that really ramped up during the Biden administration. And now the Trump administration has taken a very different tack, where the question is not, you know, will we ever sell chips to markets in the Middle east or in Southeast Asia, but what is the risk that those chips could ultimately benefit China? Either by Chinese AI companies remotely accessing data centers in third countries to train AI models from the physical hardware being actually diverted and transshipped to China, or from those countries, taking American hardware and AI know how and then making technically separate but kind of related investments in Chinese tech. And so that's the rub. And the question is, what conditions is the US Going to put on these deals to ensure that you're safeguarding American technology and know how and ensuring that in diffusing the technology around the world, you're not inadvertently benefiting a US Adversary?
- [08:04]
Joe Weisenthal
Real quick, specific question. Are there stipulations in the deal that, setting aside the implementation of it, that are designed to create safeguards or checkpoints such that the chips that go to the Gulf aren't then trans shipped to Chinese data centers. Do they have some ostensible mechanism for avoiding that?
- [08:23]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Yes.
- [08:24]
Marc Reape
The U.S. government has a small handful of export control officers that operate globally and by small I mean like very low double digits that can go in and like check physical facilities and see okay, are the chips still here? They talk to the data center operators and such. The Trump administration has asked for more funding for the agency that executes those controls. And there are high level provisions in this bilateral arrangement between the US and the UAE about preventing diversion to China. There are also high level provisions about restricting China's remote access to facilities and around inbound and outbound investment from China reciprocated with the Gulf nations in question. Those are high level arrangements and the big company deals were announced when the security arrangements remained at a fairly high level. And so there are some folks in Washington who are concerned that the US didn't hammer out all of the specifics dot every I cross every t before announcing these deals and touting them as major wins for American economic competitiveness and national security.
- [09:46]
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- [10:22]
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- [11:26]
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- [12:33]
Joe Weisenthal
So it seems like when we talk about the US China AI rivalry, there's two potential dimensions, which is one, is there's this sort of anxiety like China going to achieve AGI first, or is it going to race ahead of, you know, are their labs going to be better than our labs, et cetera. But then there seems to be this other one and actually like David Sacks, the All in podcast host but also Trump's aizar, seems to have a slightly different spin on the question, which is just like, no, like we really should just want as much US Tech currently diffused out in the world, that the dominance of the Cuda ecosystem and Nvidia, etc. Is what we should really care about and that we're cutting our shooting ourselves in the foot if we get too nervous about where our chips are going in the world.
- [13:15]
Mackenzie Hawkins
David Sachs basically defined winning in the AI race as capturing the vast majority of the global market for AI hardware. And of course, the US ability to do that is a function of Nvidia's dominance in US Restrictions that have been levied for years on China's semiconductor industry and its ability to build a chip making prowess. So we've seen actually a couple of estimates recently of what China's semiconductor landscape looks like. You had Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick tell the Senate Appropriations Committee last week. He was asked by a senator said, oh, I think I've read that China can make less than 400,000 advanced chips a year. And Lutnick said, actually no, they say they're making them and they're not. It's probably closer to 200,000. He didn't define what chips he was Talking about advanced chips could include mobile processors, for example, in addition to AI chips. But for the sake of discussion, let's say it's Huawei's Ascend AI chips which are the best domestic model in China. That number is really far short of China's domestic demand, which the market research firm Tech Insights put at around 1.5 million AI accelerators in 2024, compared to what Ludnick says is 200,000 that China can domestically produce. There's another estimate out there from the research firm Semianalysis that says China can produce around 380,000 of its most advanced AI chips domestically, and that will reach multiple millions next year. Now, in addition to China's domestic chip making capacity, there is also a significant infusion that Huawei got from ordering a reported 2.9 million chips from TSMC, the global leader in actual chip manufacturing, through an intermediary that has since been sanctioned by the US government. And that's not an insignificant one time infusion into China's stockpile. Now, the Biden administration released a rule in their final week in office increasing due diligence requirements for foundries, which are the companies that actually make chips designed by others. And TSMC hasn't commented publicly on the 2.9 million number, but they said that they're cooperating with a US investigation into the matter. So the question for the US is not will China ever develop good chips that can compete on a global scale? I don't think that policymakers from the Biden administration to the Trump administration have any reservations really about thinking, of course, China's a serious competitive technological player. It's about when that could happen and when that could happen in a way that would allow China to export in significant quantities to foreign markets. So there's this really interesting example that happened a couple of weeks ago where the Deputy communications Minister in Malaysia, in a speech that was picked up in local media said, we have this new national AI system that's powered by 3000 Huawei Ascent chips. Now, 3000 chips is a super small number of chips. It's a fraction of what's needed for a mid sized data center. But it was the first known example, or at least one of the first known examples, at least the first that I attract of an international deployment from China. And so there was this big reaction in D.C. of like, oh my God, it's happening. David Sachs tweeted, as I've been warning, the full Chinese stack is here. We rescinded the Biden diffusion rule just in time. That's a reference to Global semiconductor controls that the Biden administration imposed on pretty much the entire world in their last week in office. And David Sachs finished, the American AI stack needs to be unleashed to compete. So I was super interested in this. My colleagues in Kuala Lumpur were super interested in this. And so we called the Malaysian Communications Ministry, we said, hey, can we get some more information about this project? And they said, oh, we're retracting the Huawei part of that speech. Now, important context for this is that it came a couple of days after the U.S. commerce Department had issued guidance saying that it considers the use of Huawei's Ascend chips anywhere in the world to be a violation of U.S. export controls. Now, they've since removed that anywhere in the world line. It's like this whole thing and the ongoing US China trade negotiations. But that's an important piece of understanding Malaysia's reaction here. So we published a story that was basically like Malaysia's distancing itself from this Huawei project. And the response that David Sacks had to that after on Twitter was, that's not a lot of chips. But it does show China's intent to export the Huawei DeepSeek stack. DeepSeq was also part of Malaysia's approach. It's a harbinger of what's to come. Now, Malaysia is like, we're going to assert our sovereignty. We get to decide which technology we want to use. But it was really interesting to watch the reaction to this play out in D.C. because on the one hand, some people treated it as evidence that the threat they've been warning about is here. And the US Therefore needs to be super aggressive about exporting Nvidia chips as quickly and as widely and in as large quantities as possible. And there are some people who read it as, this is propaganda. This is Huawei trying to demonstrate that it can export internationally when really it can't even meet domestic demand. Now, last thing I'll say here, before I turn it back over to you guys, is there was a really interesting interview with Huawei's founder in People's Daily, the official newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party, just, I guess today in Hong Kong, yesterday in D.C. depending what time zone you're in, where he said, Huawei is actually still behind, the US Is overestimating our capabilities, but we're making progress. Now, Huawei is still constrained in large part due to US Restrictions on semiconductor manufacturing equipment.
- [19:13]
Tracy Alloway
Hmm. Since you brought up the global export controls on chips, it seems to me like there's a fundamental tension here where if you want to export US technology, you kind of have to accept that some of the risk is that it's going to leak into parts of the world where, you know, you might not want it to be. So China. And when I imagine, you know, if the US says it wants to release its tech stack globally, sorry, I have an image in my mind, it's like, release the hounds, release the tech stack. If they want to do that, it seems like, I guess they either have to fine tune the export controls or harden them up. And I'm not entirely sure how they would do that given that we already have the experience of the Biden administration's export controls. Like what, what levers can they actually pull here to ensure that American technology goes global, but at the same time it doesn't go global in a way that we don't want it to?
- [20:12]
Marc Reape
It's a really challenging question. I mean, that's why you saw the Biden administration essentially pause large scale Nvidia and AMD AI chip shipments for the.
- [20:21]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Better part of a year.
- [20:23]
Marc Reape
You know, the U.S. restrictions, the, like real U.S. restrictions on AI chips started in October 2022, a date that anybody in the Chinese tech industry would remember, when the US said, all right, no more Nvidia exports to China without a license. At the highest end of Nvidia technology. That's a month before ChatGPT launched. And if you think about what's happened in the nearly three years since then, there's this massive interest from countries all over the world in developing what people in the industry call sovereign AI. Basically the idea that as a nation you have the hardware and software infrastructure to develop, train, deploy your own AI models. And the Gulf is a really interesting first case study of a really organized ambition to make that happen. But there are countries all over the world that want that. Nvidia CEO Chen Tun Huang has been talking about that for a very long time. And Sam Altman has been going to the Middle east looking for funding for US infrastructure projects, of course, setting up what became this 5 gigawatt data center in Abu Dhabi. And the Biden administration, after they restricted shipments to China in 2022, followed up a year later, expanding the restrictions not just on the technology that can go to China, but also the global footprint of the controls. And they added around 40 countries on the basis of the risk of diversion to China. And then about a year after that, in their very final week in office, they released this global framework called the AI Diffusion Rule that basically split the world into three categories of chip access. In Tier one, you had the US and very close partner countries that the Biden administration viewed to have similar export control regimes and capacities to those offered by Washington. In Tier 3, the bottom, where you have China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, US Adversaries that basically just continue to not have effectively access to advanced American tech. And then you had everybody in the middle, which was most of the world, everybody from treaty allies like Poland to Singapore to Yemen. And the Biden administration's approach was we're going to cap the number of chips that can go to these countries, but a company can apply for a license called a validated end user designation, which is fancy Washington speak for basically. I'll submit to you the security requirements that I'm going to apply for to a data center that I'm going to build an X, Y and Z place. And in exchange, you're going to make it easier for me to get licenses to ship to that place in the future. And because I've made all of those security promises, my projects are going to be exempted from the national cap in this place. And the Biden administration's goal was to set that cap at a level that incentivized companies like Microsoft or like Oracle to agree to a bunch of security conditions, apply for licenses, and then, sure, go ahead, build your data centers in the places that you want to, as long as you keep most of your compute capacity in the US and friendly countries and no more than 7% of your computer capacity in any one country that is in another tier. So it's this immensely complicated regulation got a lot of blowback from all over the tech industry. Although a couple of supporters of some of the provisions, Nvidia will surprise nobody, was one of the strongest opponents. Oracle was also a huge opponent because that cap on Putting more than 7% of your capacity in any one country was a big problem for Oracle's massive planned data center expansion in Malaysia. So you had this big jockeying for position among tech companies and also among countries, some of whom were like, we cannot execute the plans that we want to within the constraints of this cap. Others of whom didn't necessarily have super ambitious data center plans, but were kind of like, what the heck? Like, why are we being put in the same category as this country or this country or this country? I mean, you had a couple of European Union nations that were put in tier 2, but most of them were put in the most preferential tier. And so the EU is like, okay, are we trying to disrupt free trade within the bloc? And that debate sort of carried out all throughout the first couple of months of the Trump administration before the Trump officials decided, all right, we're axing that rule and we're going to work on a replacement. And the deals that we saw happen in the UAE and Saudi Arabia are the best indication that we have so far of what that replacement could look like. And we're shifting from this big global regulation to a lot of country specific deals that will probably have some commonalities but will really be negotiated on a bilateral basis.
- [25:14]
Joe Weisenthal
Absolutely fascinating topic and you explain it very clearly. Mackenzie Hawkins, thank you so much for coming back on odd lots. Thank you so much for staying up late for the recording and talk to you soon, hopefully.
- [25:25]
Mackenzie Hawkins
Thanks so much for having.
- [25:42]
Joe Weisenthal
I find this story to be extremely fascinating for multiple reasons, I guess. One is like, you know, when we think about like export controls or we think about what you sell, you know, you often think like traditionally like defense tech. Right. And so it's like, okay, you have to make a deal at the high level before one country can buy jets or whatever from you. But this is, AI is so weird because it's also just this commercial tech that companies are going to use in random chatbots and software as a service applications, et cetera. And yet we still sort of treat it as potentially being defense, like in its. In its implications.
- [26:17]
Tracy Alloway
Yeah, it's kind of funny. I'm thinking now imagine like reading one of the stories about AI and China, US competition and replacing like chatbots, AI with ballistic missiles and like what that language would actually read like. But okay, two things here. So it is true, people talk about the race for AI supremacy in these sort of militaristic terms, which obviously raises the question of what exactly success looks like in this sphere. And you brought up the point that, you know, some people seem to think it's achieving AGI first, some people like Lutnick and some people like Sachs seem to think that it's basically taking market share or having dominant market share. And I don't know, like it strikes me that there's, there's probably not going to be a moment when the US can declare victory or China can declare victory, but we should at least have some sort of like agreed idea of where we're heading here. And then the second thing I was thinking about is again, because all of this is constantly couched in militaristic language and basically competition between the world's two biggest economies, you can think of data centers as critical infrastructure, right?
- [27:30]
Joe Weisenthal
Yeah.
- [27:31]
Tracy Alloway
And so I guess the question is, should we be building more critical infrastructure in a place like the UAE on the one hand, you know, the U.S. and the UAE have a strong partnership. There's a U.S. military presence in the UAE already, U.S. border control at the airport, which is very, very convenient. But you know, we also get oil from the Middle east and I kind of wonder if we want to like double down on our infrastructure rel dependence on that particular region.
- [28:01]
Joe Weisenthal
So on the one hand, the David Sacks view is like, this is a business, right? And the goal is to have greater market share, et cetera. But part of the reason anyone is even talking about this in such where every country needs to have their own compute is because there is this perception that it's existential technology. So the two sides, they sort of play off of each other in this. There's always this sort of like Baptist and bootlegger sort of way. I think about this where both sides of these questions end up boosting each other. Because David's view is like, oh, all of this, all of this worrying is wrong. And it's just, it's a business and we want to have more market share. And all of the. He's very critical of like the AI doomers who think it's going to destroy all the jobs because he claims it's, oh, this is a Trojan horse for more regulation of the tech, etc. And yet if it weren't for the AI doomers, if it weren't for all the people thinking this is existential technology, there wouldn't be that much demand to just absolutely have this many chips within your borders, et cetera. So in all of these stories with AI, it's like there's different perspectives and even people on opposite sides of the debate end up like, bolstering the other.
- [29:13]
Tracy Alloway
Feeding on each other, feeding each other.
- [29:15]
Joe Weisenthal
And anyway, I think these are interesting stories to watch. I had missed that whole thing with Huawei, ostensibly, and then Malaysia backtracking about its involvement, but certainly their AI chips being used globally would be a very interesting development to watch.
- [29:31]
Tracy Alloway
Yep, lots more to talk about on this topic, I'm sure. Shall we leave it there for now?
- [29:35]
Joe Weisenthal
Let's leave it there.
- [29:36]
Tracy Alloway
This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.
- [29:41]
Joe Weisenthal
And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. Follow our guest, Mackenzie Hawkins. She's Ackhawk. Follow our producers Kerman Rodriguez, ermenarmon, Dashiell, Bennett at dashbot and Kale Brooks at Kalebrooks. For more Odd Lots content, go to bloomberg.comoddlods where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes and and you can chat about all of these topics 24. 7 in our Discord, Discord, GG Oddlots.
- [30:07]
Tracy Alloway
And if you enjoy odd lots. If you like it when we talk about AI campuses in Abu Dhabi, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember if you are a Bloomberg subscriber you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.
- [30:53]
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Tracy Alloway
Way better than that. Yes, Almond Joy is made with almonds.
- [32:47]
Joe Weisenthal
And.
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