The Booming Business of Chinese Peptides

Summary

Odd Lots Podcast: "The Booming Business of Chinese Peptides"

Original air date: December 19, 2025
Hosts: Tracy Alloway, Joe Weisenthal
Guests: Jasmine Sun (Writer, San Francisco & AI culture), Zach David (Managing Partner, Persec Technologies / Peptide Partners)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the suddenly ubiquitous world of peptides—molecules that are transforming wellness and optimization culture in San Francisco and beyond, with a remarkable supply chain that runs straight to Chinese manufacturers. The hosts explore what peptides are, why they're catching on (especially in tech and startup communities), the gray-area regulatory environment, the mechanics of sourcing and distributing these substances, and the broader implications for biotech, consumer health, and the future of self-optimization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Are Peptides? (Starting at 06:43)

• Definition & Context:
  Peptides are short chains of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, many of which occur naturally in the body. Some, like insulin or oxytocin, are established medicines or hormones; others are more experimental.

• Recent Popularity:
  The recent explosion of interest is linked to GLP-1 agonists (like Ozempic and Wegovy) for weight loss, which normalized the idea of self-injecting as a wellness tool in biohacking communities.

• Quote:
  "There are peptides that are naturally occurring in the human body... But there are also synthetic peptides... and inject extra of it if your body, say, doesn't produce enough."
  —Jasmine Sun [06:52]

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2. Peptide Culture in San Francisco & Beyond (10:44)

• Tech Culture Influence:
  San Francisco's tech and startup community is driving the peptide trend, with biohacking and self-experimentation seen as part of the frontier mentality.

• Signaling & Social Proof:
  Beyond claimed health benefits, peptide use has become a status signal—part of the "optimization" and futurist subcultures that often foreshadow wider trends.

• Memorable Moment:
  "San Francisco is really leaning into its identity these days of we are kind of going to be the place that is not sort of suffering under the regulatory decelerationist burden..."
  —Jasmine Sun [11:35]

• Events:
  Peptide raves, tech Twitter banter, gym communities, and online rationalist forums all fuel the peptide hype cycle.

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3. The Many Types and Claims of Peptides (13:23)

• Popular Peptides:
  • GLP-1s & GLP-3s: For weight loss, e.g., retatrutide—a next-gen version with even faster results (not FDA-approved, sourced from China).
  • BPC-157: Claimed to aid muscle healing.
  • Melanotan: Increases melanin; marketed as "hot, horny, and tan."
  • Oxytocin: Allegedly helps social skills, e.g., eye contact (nasal spray form widely discussed online).
  • Epitalon, C Max, etc.: Touted for sleep and anxiety, respectively.
• Skepticism and Evidence: Most claims are anecdotal; only GLP-1-type peptides have robust clinical backing.

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4. Supply Chain & Sourcing: The Chinese Peptide Pipeline (09:31, 31:06)

• How They Arrive:
  Many order directly from Chinese labs or through U.S. middlemen who test for purity and resell.

• Testing:
  Products are labeled "for research use only" to avoid regulatory scrutiny. Buyers sometimes send samples for third-party purity verification.

• Quote:
  "These Chinese manufacturers... are allowed to ship peptides around the world for research use... People are basically importing the peptides for research use, and then... ship it separately to purity testing firms."
  —Jasmine Sun [18:23]

• Guest Business Model:
  Zach David's company Peptide Partners sources from vetted Chinese labs, sends batches for testing, and sometimes discards products not up to standards, occasionally posting this online for transparency.

• Quote:
  "We randomly sample... we'll randomly sample between three and five. If the variance in the quality is very tight, we consider that a good batch. We famously throw out batches we don't consider up to our standards."
  —Zach David [33:14]

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5. Legal and Regulatory Gray Zones (16:14, 36:54)

• Legal Loopholes:
  Peptides are not on DEA schedules; as "research chemicals," they're legal to import and sell as long as not explicitly marketed for human use.

• FDA Involvement:
  Some peptides, like GLP-1 analogues, have approval in specific formulations, but most biohacking peptides are unregulated and have never completed human trials.

• Regulatory Shifts:
  RFK Jr.'s health policies suggest a potential regulatory thaw, but little sign of change as of late 2025.

• Quote:
  "Doctors can prescribe them... for example, there's one called Sermorelin... abandoned for economic not safety reasons... you can get it from compounding pharmacies. But things from compounding pharmacies do not undergo the same safety standards."
  —Zach David [36:54]

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6. The Culture of Self-Experimentation & Information Sharing (20:15, 47:48)

• Research Community:
  Users share experiences and suppliers via word-of-mouth, gym networks, forums (LessWrong, Discord, Telegram), and "bro wellness" influencers (Joe Rogan, Andrew Huberman).

• Peer Review:
  Sites like Finric crowdsource purity reports, while viral posts and raves serve as informal marketing.

• Competitive Edge:
  Some see peptides as another way to optimize, echoing startup "growth hacking" logic. Looks-maxing (improving appearance) is also seen as increasingly vital as roles commoditize via AI.

• Quote:
  "It's another thing I can optimize. Just like my SEO..."
  —Jasmine Sun quoting a startup founder [22:09]

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7. Manufacturing Details (34:47, 35:35)

• Production:
  Most peptides are short (less than 40 amino acids) to fit U.S. legal definitions and manufacturing constraints. Production is technically advanced but increasingly standardized and commoditized.

• Why China Leads:
  Lower costs, easier access to input materials, and established expertise. Some finishing (freeze-drying, packaging) may occur in the U.S., especially as startups try to go "above board."

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8. Marketing and Demand Drivers (47:48, 48:26)

• How People Find Suppliers:
  Word of mouth, gym culture, online influencer promotion, testing transparency, and—uniquely—peptide-themed social events.

• Product Selection:
  Manufacturers pitch the newest molecules, but responsible resellers may filter unproven or risky compounds.

• Notable Moment:
  "How do you decide which peptides to stock? Is it whichever ones are getting the Most buzz on TikTok?"
  —Tracy Alloway [39:26]

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9. Economic and Political Considerations (41:36, 53:07)

• Supply Chain Chokepoints:
  China's dominance in chemical manufacturing extends to peptides; U.S. production is limited and mostly focuses on finishing.

• Policy Questions:
  Could there be an ‘industrial policy’ push to bring peptide manufacturing stateside, especially given surging demand and possible national security implications?

• Quote:
  "Are we going to see the White House adopt a industrial policy to wean us off of our dependence on China for experimental peptides? Anyone talk about that?"
  —Joe Weisenthal [53:07]

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10. Risks, Efficacy, and the Future (24:24, 50:59, 55:01)

• Safety:
  Most buyers have a high risk tolerance or claim to; testing infrastructure is informal, safety data limited.

• Regulatory Future:
  Many expect demand and informal use to boom regardless of what regulators do. Some see a future where only safety trials (not efficacy) determine legal use—a new era of patient-led, crowdsourced medicine.

• Quote:
  "You're doing it for the greater good, I'm sure."
  —Tracy Alloway, on the self-experimenters [56:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I'm going to a peptide rave this Saturday with a cyberpunk dress code."
  —Jasmine Sun [11:33]

• "A lot of these people were startup founders. They think, 'I'm the kind of person who is willing to take risks...'"
  —Jasmine Sun [16:39]

• "It's another thing I can optimize. Just like my SEO..."
  —Jasmine Sun [22:09]

• "Many people are saying, what's the customs process actually like for this?"
  —Tracy Alloway [49:30]

• "Is the booming market for micropipettes [a proxy for peptide use]?"
  —Joe Weisenthal [38:03]

• "As information gets commoditized via AI, then your only edge is going to be basically what you look like and how you interact with people."
  —Tracy Alloway [23:19]

• "There was a time when people didn't talk about things like their plastic surgery, but it seems very more transparent than it used to be."
  —Tracy Alloway [54:23]

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Key Timestamps

• 03:02 – Hosts introduce the peptide theme with an oxytocin prop and raise initial questions
• 06:43 – Jasmine Sun defines peptides and describes their San Francisco moment
• 09:31 – Explaining the Chinese supply chain and how buyers access peptides
• 11:33 – Peptide raves and San Francisco “future comes first” culture
• 13:23 – Types of peptides: weight loss, social, cosmetic, muscle, sleep, etc.
• 16:39 – Risk tolerance, legal gray areas, testing standards
• 20:15 – How the peptide “biohacking” community shares info and sources
• 22:09 – “Optimization” culture, competitiveness, and looks-maxing
• 24:24 – Peptide market growth and the uncertain regulatory future
• 31:06 – Zach David describes his business sourcing, testing, and standards
• 36:54 – Legal status, FDA, doctors, "for research use only"
• 39:26 – How suppliers decide what to sell and trends
• 43:40 – Peptides as oral drugs vs. injectables
• 47:48 – Marketing, word of mouth, lab testing networks
• 49:30 – Customs, tariffs, quirks of importation
• 53:07 – Global competition, strategic biotech policy

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

This episode mixes deep reporting, cultural anthropology, and classic Odd Lots supply-chain and regulation-nerdiness. The mood is curious, irreverent, and skeptical but open—a perfect fit for a topic that sits somewhere between wellness gold rush, Silicon Valley optimization mania, and emerging biotech gray-market economics.

Ultimately, listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of why peptides are suddenly everywhere in tech/social circles, what risks and rewards are involved in their use, how China became their source, why U.S. regulation struggles to keep up, and what it all says about the future of health, self-improvement, and global supply chains.

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For Further Reading/Listening:

• Follow Jasmine Sun (@jasminenewsun) and Zach David (@zachdavid) for ongoing coverage of peptide and biotech culture
• Explore Odd Lots' earlier episodes on pharmaceuticals, supply chains, and emerging health tech

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Summary compiled based on the Odd Lots December 19, 2025 episode transcript. For more in-depth discussion and analysis, visit bloomberg.com/oddlots.

Transcript

[Joe Weisenthal]

You're being sold an AI future where you're obsolete or irrelevant.

[Zach David]

That vision is wrong.

[Joe Weisenthal]

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[Zach David]

American workers are our nation's greatest strength.

[Jasmine Sun]

AI shouldn't eliminate them, it should elevate them. Palantir is here to tell their stories.

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From factories to hospitals, AI is freeing.

[Joe Weisenthal]

People from drudgery, letting them do what humans do best.

[Jasmine Sun]

Create, solve, build. Palantir, making Americans irreplaceable.

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[Jasmine Sun]

So let me get this straight.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the.

[Jasmine Sun]

Data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create Smarter Business. IBM.

[Public Investing Advertisement Voice]

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[Jasmine Sun]

Confusing, but with mailchimp's new SMS features you can reach all your customers in over 10 countries entries all from one account, giving you more time, driving more conversions and improving campaign performance. One platform, many audiences, endless possibilities. That's how you MailChimp your marketing with SMS. Tap the banner to learn more. Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.

[Tracy Alloway]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And I'm Joe Weisenthal.

[Tracy Alloway]

Jo I have A present for you.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay. I'm excited.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's December 10th.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah.

[Tracy Alloway]

Christmas is coming up.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Christmas present. Cool. Monica presents.

[Tracy Alloway]

Here you go.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Let me see. What is this? Okay. Quality. It's from Quality Sprays.com and it's. Wait, that seems like an illegal drug. It says oxytocin.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's not illegal. It's not illegal. I got it off Amazon for, like, 60 bucks.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Oxytocin. That sounds illegal.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's not.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay.

[Tracy Alloway]

Do you know what oxytocin actually is?

[Joe Weisenthal]

I'm sure it's really bad.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's a peptide.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay. I didn't know that.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I actually don't even know what a peptide is. I've been hearing this word peptide. I don't know what classification of chemical or molecule chain or anything peptide is, but I've been hearing about this word peptide more and more.

[Tracy Alloway]

This is important.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Thank you. You're actually going to give this to me or is this just a prop that I have to give?

[Tracy Alloway]

It's just a prop.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay.

[Tracy Alloway]

And I just said that that it's yours, but it's actually mine. Okay. Peptides. Peptides are the P in GLP1s that are so popular.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I think I do. Yeah. I think I knew GLP1S is a peptide, but I still don't know what is it? Anyway.

[Tracy Alloway]

All right. The reason you're hearing about it a lot is because a lot of people seem to be using them in various ways. And there are all these different types of peptides that supposedly do different things for the body. This one apparently makes you better at eye contact and more sociable.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So you know what's really funny? Back when I was in. I could have used this, like, 25 years ago. When I was younger, like in college, it didn't happen very often, but I occasionally went on a few dates and. Very rare. Very rare.

[Tracy Alloway]

I'm not going to say anything.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Very rare occurrence. But one of the things I would notice if I was out on a date and, like, the girl would start, like, messing with, like, her hair.

[Tracy Alloway]

She likes you.

[Joe Weisenthal]

No. And she's like, is there something wrong with my hair? Because you keep looking, like, three inches above my eyes. And I'm like, no, I'm just very awkward. It's very difficult for me. And she's like, oh. I was like, it's very awkward for me. I'm not very good at eye contact and so forth. And so I just assumed it was something in my hair that I was, like, trying to get out and. And I was like, no, I'm sorry, I'm just like that this happened to.

[Tracy Alloway]

You more than once.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yes. So I could have really used a chemical that would solve the eye contact problem. Now I've grown up. I've grown out of it. I can look someone in the eye now.

[Tracy Alloway]

I will say I have tested it. I'm not entirely convinced of its effects, but, you know, in the name of science, for all thoughts, I have been a guinea pig.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So we know GLP1s, whatever they're called, we go VI and all those. Those are good for weight loss. And we know it's almost a miracle drug. Right. Everyone's incredible. But in theory, there are other peptides out there that could be equivalently miraculous. We just don't really know about them. And maybe they're not sort of medicinalized the way that the weight loss ones are.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah. And also not distributed the same way as GLP ones in America. And we're going to get all into that because it's actually a really interesting topic, both culturally and from a supply chain perspective. And we love supply chains, so.

[Joe Weisenthal]

We love supply chains.

[Tracy Alloway]

All right, so for this particular topic, we're actually going to have two guests.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Great.

[Tracy Alloway]

Because it's so interesting and I got so into the peptide world. Our first guest is Jasmine Sun. She is an independent writer covering AI and San Francisco culture. And this is definitely a San Francisco cultural thing. So, Jasmine, you are truly the perfect guest. Thank you so much for coming on Odd lots.

[Jasmine Sun]

I am so excited to be here.

[Tracy Alloway]

So first of all, why don't you just tell us a little bit more about what peptides actually are and how they first came onto your radar screen.

[Jasmine Sun]

Right. So peptides are basically short chains of amino acids. They are the building blocks of proteins. There are peptides that are naturally occurring in the human body. So for example, oxytocin, like you have right there, we produce it during pregnancy when you hug somebody, hug your partner, hug your family member. But there are also synthetic peptides that are manufactured in labs or people can take these peptides that already exist in the human body and inject extra of it if your body, say, doesn't produce enough. So insulin, for example, is an example of a peptide that's been used obviously for. To treat diabetics for a very long time. So peptides are actually a very broad class of drugs. But I think the interest in more experimental peptides and within biohacking communities and things like that has really exploded in recent years. I would trace it to basically the boom in GLP1 use. A lot of folks who I spoke to over the past few weeks who have been experimenting with peptides and injecting them themselves, first started getting comfortable with even the idea of injections, which were previously seen as a bit intense for people.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, you're injecting yourself with drugs that has.

[Jasmine Sun]

Right. But I think that GLP1s and Ozempic and WeGovy were what really popularized it and made people comfortable. So it first came on my radar, aside from the GLP story, because I started seeing tweets that I'm sure you guys have seen too, all over SF Tech, Twitter, about how everybody has a Chinese peptide dealer now. I thought this was kind of a joke until I started mentioning it in conversations. And I realized that my friends were on Chinese peptides. They were like, wait, Jasmine, are you not on these? They're amazing. I got to get you on these peptides. I got a dealer, I got my guy, and I'm like, what are you on about? And I think the first one that I heard about people using, which is the most popular that I have since heard, is retatrutide, which is what some people call a GLP3. So basically, GLP1s are, through the FDA process. People are like something like 12% of Americans, depending on what survey you look at, are using them. But there are now next generation weight loss drugs that work on not just the GLP1 receptors, but also the GIP receptors and the glucagon receptors to encourage even faster weight loss. And these GLP3s like retatrutide are still in phase 2 clinical trials. But because people have been watching this space, they're seeing really good results in those clinical trials. Some folks have thought, okay, let me go straight to the source. I'm going to find a Chinese manufacturer that makes retatrutide for cheap, and I will import them at a low cost of maybe 100 bucks, 200 bucks a month from one of these gray market suppliers and use them myself for weight loss for one fifth of the cost that I was getting my prescription Ozempic at, or something like that.

[Tracy Alloway]

I promised you this was a supply chain.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, no, great. Obviously, we want to talk more about peptides. That's what we're here to talk about. But I actually just want to back up one second because you're a San Francisco culture reporter, among other things, and you write great stuff about AI and communication, all that stuff. One thing I think about a lot these days is that we all know that people in San Francisco really have a very big influence on all of our Lives, right. Because they design the digital products that essentially constitute what makes modern living distinct. But one thing I feel like, and I struggle around my articulate this, all of these other things that are part of the contemporary San Francisco lifestyle, whether it's sort of like believing in AI doom scenarios, et cetera, it's like weird cults that they form. Like to some extent this is such an important beat that you're on because we are all living in the shadows of. Of what has going on in these people's brains, right? Like these ideas that they think about, body hacking and so forth, they become the sort of like consumer products and so forth that everyone just sort of use with uses without ever thinking about like some of the philosophical gestalt behind it all.

[Jasmine Sun]

Totally. I mean, I think that's totally right. That's why I love the San Francisco beat. I sort of collapse it too. Like, honestly, I just report on San Francisco, whether that is, um, you know, in the beginning of 2025, a lot of it was about the young tech, right? And why did that happen? It's about AI. All the weird sub ideologies from AI Doomed to the successionists who actually think that AI has a moral duty to replace the human species because they're superior to us. There are all these weird strains of thought. And I think sf, especially this year, increasingly prides itself on sort of being the place where the future comes first. They've sort of re embraced that identity of like, we're going to have funerals for AI models that we miss. We are embracing robo taxi abundance with Tesla Robotaxis, Zooxes and Waymos, and we're going to be the ones to try all this stuff first. I'm going to a peptide rave this Saturday with a cyberpunk dress code.

[Tracy Alloway]

Sounds very San Francisco.

[Jasmine Sun]

It's very San Francisco. There are underground robot bites that I'm sure you guys have seen videos of, but I think San Francisco is really leaning into its identity these days of we are kind of going to be the place that is not sort of suffering under the regulatory decelerationist burden that's plaguing the rest of the Western world. And we're going to embrace the frontier. And I think peptides are part of that. It's a signaling thing as much as a health thing.

[Tracy Alloway]

Well, okay, speaking of the tech community, is it true that something like oxytocin, it actually improves your eye contact? And the way I heard it was, this could be helpful for people, autists who are in tech and yeah, maybe aren't that sociable.

[Jasmine Sun]

Oh, my God. Yeah. So the oxytocin is the only peptide that I've personally tried. I think I first heard about it because Will Depew, who's like a young AI researcher at OpenAI, tweeted about it as I think nasal oxytocin is going to be Ozempic for autism, which is an incredible line. Like, what the. Like, what the hell is this? And it's been tested on people with Asperger's to help improve, again, those feelings of social connection, empathy, warmth that comes as a nasal spray you can get for 50 bucks, 60 bucks off Amazon or something. So I also like you, Tracy. When I tried it, I didn't think it worked, but my friends did insist that I was a little bit friendlier than I normally am and I was, in fact, making more eye contact. So we're going to have to do.

[Tracy Alloway]

Some experiments here at Odd Lots and just have a bunch of conversations where we're on and off the oxytocin and see what happens.

[Joe Weisenthal]

We got you. I really. I really could have used that in. In college for sure. So there's all kinds of ones. Right? So, okay, GOP one's weight loss. This one supposedly helps you with eye contact and connection. What are some of the other things that people are using peptides for?

[Jasmine Sun]

So aside from the GLP1s and the GLP3s, which are the most popular, there are all sorts of peptides. They are a really, really broad class of chemical. So the most popular other than that is BPC 157, which supposedly helps with muscle healing and regeneration. So after a really hard workout, that one has been experimented with in bodybuilding communities for many years. So there's all these crazy bodybuilding forums where people are playing with this stuff and human growth hormone and things like that. There is melanotan, which supposedly increases melanin production in the skin. So I talked to a founder, a CEO of a unicorn logistics company who told me that his first peptide was melanotan because he hated being a ginger. He had always wanted to stop being a ginger, so he cured it by taking this thing that increases your melanin production. It makes you tanner. Another person described it to me as the hot, horny and tan peptide. So that one for the those who aren't getting enough sunlight shut in in an office, maybe that's your pick. There is epitalon, which folks have credited with increasing, improving their sleep. There's C Max, which people believe helps with their anxiety. To be clear, most of the peptides aside from the GLPs, have not been in any human trials whatsoever. So a lot of this sort of comes from anecdotal evidence and people experimenting rather than from like FDA approved or, or like RCTs. And some of these, you know, only have animal trials or cell culture in vitro tests.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this actually, because my impression is peptides, like there's not much profit to be made from them for the pharma companies and so it's just not worth it to them to actually test on humans and yet they're still commercially available.

[Jasmine Sun]

That is one of the stories I heard because, you know, I asked, well, GLP1s have been so profitable. So like, why aren't people trying to push through FDA trials these other peptides that people have been crediting with like transformative health improvements or whatever. And the story I heard is that because peptides are these very small, very basic chains, they're too commoditized, basically. Like at the point where these Chinese factories are able to, without a ton of like extremely advanced scientific knowledge, be able to manufacture them en masse, no company is going to want to invest like 100 million a billion dollars in getting it through the like excruciating FDA trial process. And so that sort of left peptides in this gray market environment where people are saying like, okay, like I might as well go import this stuff from China, maybe get it purity tested myself. It's going to cost a few hundred dollars in total and let's just see.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, let's talk about that. Because I don't love the idea of sticking myself with needles. But then also I don't love the idea of like sticking myself with needles for some random thing that came from.

[Tracy Alloway]

A factory or having a dealer.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Right. My thing. And I want to get into the legal aspects of all this as well. But yeah, talk to us about the, I guess just the comfort that people have with frankly injecting themselves with chemicals that they probably have no idea what's in there, can't verify it, or have no idea how the quality of the lab in China that they're getting them from.

[Jasmine Sun]

Yeah, I mean, so I've interviewed probably a dozen plus people, peptide users in and around the tech community over the past few weeks. And I will say that almost everyone I spoke to, I'd ask like, hey, are you scared? Are you worried? Did you have to like get over a mental hump with this stuff? And most of them would tell me, you know what, like, I have a higher risk tolerance than most people. I think this is something that, say, startup founders in particular really pride themselves on. And a lot of these people were startup founders right there. They think I'm the kind of person who is willing to take risks. I'm the kind of person who doesn't really need to wait until I'm given permission to do something, Whether that's by a regulator, by some boss, I can sort of study up in my own way, and that's good enough. So, like, I think people were surprisingly, they were very comfortable telling me there is some risk. I know that there have been some negative side effects. But you know what? I keep a journal every day. I have friends who have used it. I'm going to suppliers that are showing their testing certifications from top peptide testing firms. And that's good enough for me, even though I wouldn't recommend that everybody do this. But you're right, Joe, this is a legal gray area. Some people would even say black market. So use of the vast majority of these peptides, particularly the non GLPs, no human trials, no FDA approval, whether for pharmaceutical use or for use in compounding pharmacies, which GLPs have been somewhat approved for. What that means is that it is in a legal gray area because they're also not on DEA list. So they're also not in the sort of illicit drug list. It's sort of a we don't know. And so one funny thing that people joke about is all of the vials for these peptides will say, for research use only.

[Tracy Alloway]

Right, because everyone's conducting peptide research, apparently.

[Jasmine Sun]

Exactly. So these Chinese manufacturers, what they are allowed to do is to ship peptides around the world for research use for scientists, for medical researchers, for bio researchers. And so as long as you're not saying it's for human use, you don't have to prove a certain level of purity standard. You don't need necessarily a factory that follows CGMP protocols, which are an FDA approval, to know that a factory meets certain quality standards. But again, research use has a lower bar. So people are basically importing the peptides for research use, and then what they'll sometimes do is then ship it separately to purity testing firms. So there are different ones that people trust and don't, located in the U.S. located in Europe, but they'll basically take their batch of peptides that they got from the Chinese manufacturer, take a few samples, ship them off to a testing site, get a certification that it's pure or it's impure, and then they will go mix them Themselves, certain suppliers will basically serve as the American middlemen. They will be US based companies that will negotiate with the Chinese factories themselves, sort of figure out which ones are trusted by running purity tests on like 10 different Chinese factories. They find, pick the one that they trust the most and then sort of offer their brand's guarantee of running the purity testing process for the U.S. buyers. And so like it really depends on people's risk tolerance. I've spoken with people who are going direct and literally just being in contact with the manufacturers themselves. I've also spoken to people who have said I'm willing to use this US Middleman supplier that my friends are all using and say is legit and is providing these tests and certifications. But I'm not going to go straight to the factory.

[Tracy Alloway]

Talk to us about the info sharing a little bit more because this is one aspect of the peptide community, I guess you would call it, is everyone is sort of sharing maybe their personal dealer, personal supplier, and also info on their personal experience with efficacy.

[Jasmine Sun]

Totally. I think the sort of epistemology of the space is super interesting because it's very word of mouth based, very anecdotal, and I think it is rooted in a growing distrust of the medical establishment and established sources. So people are sort of embracing this. Do your own research. So I would say that quote unquote, bro, wellness influencers like Joe Rogan or Andrew Huberman have both talked extensively about these peptides. So there are very wide audiences. So followers in those communities are learning about them. There's a lot of word of mouth. For example, at certain gyms, trainers and people who train together will be sharing their peptide stacks. Um, one of the folks who I spoke to learned about the peptides at Lessonline, which is a rationalist conference that happens every spring. There was a GLP1 session that she went to. She then discovered this person that everybody else was on Retitrutide instead and they all decided to tell her, hey, we're all still alive. So like, you should get on this. There's less wrong posts on the Rationalist forum describing people's day by day experiences with peptides. There are amateur subject blogs, there are very shady telegram and discord groups where people are advertising their suppliers. Though honestly I think I would not choose a supplier off like a telegram or discord group personally. But it is kind of the wild west out there in terms of information and most people are really just going off social proof and the people that they personally know.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You know, we did an episode a while back about ADDERALL and of course, a lot of people who are, you know, work in front of a computer are feel that they can get some edge on Adderall. Is there, like a level of competitiveness, though, in the culture such that you feel like, look, other people are. Maybe they're more locked in. Maybe they're better at office politics or maybe better at pitching a vc because totally they've got there where people feel like they have to be on these or they feel like they have to optimize their peptide stack so that they can compete and sort of be at their best.

[Jasmine Sun]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the YC founders I talked to, she literally said, it's another thing I can optimize. Just like my SEO, she runs a SaaS business as her day job. Or another thing that somebody in these communities told me is these people, like, sometimes they're not overweight. In fact, a lot of the time these folks are not actually overweight. And the reason they're taking, say, retatrutide or a weight loss peptide is because they want to eliminate the food noise so they don't have to take a break for lunch. They can just be locked in for 16 hours straight. Or like, why do you have to go to the gym, which is going to, you know, drain your ability to run a few more experiments or whatever, when you could just be taking one of these? And so I think there is a lot of this optimization ethic that is driving people's desire. Another piece that I'm sort of thinking about is whether the looks maxing trends, you know, have impacted Silicon Valley as well. So one of the founders who I spoke to who is using a weight loss peptide mentioned that she watches YC launch videos and she realizes none of the founders are overweight anymore. And I'm going to have to be on video if I'm a founder. I'm going to have to go on podcasts and I want to make sure that I look my best. So I do think that these sort of optimization trends are impacting peptide use as well.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, this is something we've discussed on the show before, but this idea that looks maxing is going to become more important as information gets more commoditized or the knowledge economy gets commoditized via AI, then your only edge is going to be basically what you look like and how you interact with people. By the way, I'm a big fan of no lunch in the office. Joe knows this. I. I refuse to eat like the sad salads that cost $20 over here. In New York, I find it's better just to save my calories for like a really nice dinner. But anyway, talk to us about how you see the future of peptides kind of unrolling because it does seem to be. It's kind of a weird thing where these are becoming more popular and presumably we're just at the beginning stages of people hearing about this and more people consuming them. But there's little to no sign of FDA approval or these becoming sort of, I don't want to say legalized because they're in this gray market area, but made official in some way, right?

[Jasmine Sun]

It's hard to say. Everyone I spoke to, whether suppliers or doctors in California definitely said that they saw peptide use booming. This year I've been seeing more news in mainstream journal, mainstream newspaper outlets about personal peptide use. I think that peptide use is going to explode. I mean, as soon as people realize that I can be paying $200 for the same semaglutide that I am currently getting for 1200, I find it very hard to imagine that that is not going to explode. There are TikTok influencer niches telling you how to mix the bacteriostatic water with the powdered stuff in the vials and how to inject it if you've never done it before. As for the policy environment, I think it's hard to Predict. Last year RFK Jr. The Secretary of Health and Human Services, said that he would end the Biden administration's war on peptides. He sort of has embraced these take your health into your own hands, like experimental therapeutics. At the same time, there hasn't actually been action so far this year by the Health and Human Services Administration to bring peptides into a more legal zone. So while RFK has signaled that he will, there hasn't been policy action yet. I did reach out to the HHS and the FDA for comment and they said that they cannot predict future regulation, but that they are actively revising the list of bulk peptides that are allowed for compounding and compounding pharma. So sort of classic, we don't know, maybe looking at it language. But folks in the peptide community are really hoping to see a more, at least less a fair regulatory stance where they're not going to be shutting down these peptide suppliers.

[Tracy Alloway]

Jasmine sun that was absolutely amazing. You are truly the perfect guest to talk about the intersection of peptides in San Francisco culture. So thank you so much for coming on allpods.

[Jasmine Sun]

Thanks so much for having me. Better get ready for my peptide rave.

[Tracy Alloway]

That's right.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Have fun.

[Jasmine Sun]

Silicon Valley is selling you a future.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Where you're obsolete or worse, identical.

[Zach David]

At Palantir, they're witnessing something different and revolutionary.

[Joe Weisenthal]

From re industrializing the nation's defense base.

[Zach David]

To shipyard workers building faster and frontline.

[Jasmine Sun]

Workers boosting productivity, AI is transforming work across the nation. AI is not replacing American workers or.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Flattening them into conformity.

[Jasmine Sun]

It's unleashing what makes each one irreplaceable.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Their judgment, their craft, their creativity. When American workers become more powerfully themselves, they own the future.

[Jasmine Sun]

Making Americans irreplaceable.

[Public Investing Advertisement Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures owning a.

[Zach David]

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[Jasmine Sun]

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[Zach David]

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[Jasmine Sun]

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail].

[Tracy Alloway]

So Jo, Jasmine did a great job of introducing us to the peptide space, about which we don't really know anything. But I think we need to talk to someone who's actually in the business.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, this is one of those stories where it's obviously a cultural story, but it's also a supply chain regulation marketing standpoint, which is like, where are they all coming from? How are they getting them? And for me it's like, how do people have any confidence like what they're literally injecting into their bodies?

[Jasmine Sun]

Right.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Where is this coming from?

[Tracy Alloway]

So I have the perfect second guest. We're going to be speaking with Zach David. He is the managing partner of Persec Technologies, which runs Peptide Partners, which is a supplier of peptides. So Zach, how did you get into this space? Because you've had an interesting career path, right?

[Zach David]

I got into this space basically solving the problem for myself a few years ago. My health was very poor and I started working with a specialist in the wellness and longevity community and functional medicine. And I noticed the peptide therapies that she was prescribing were highly effective, but also extremely expensive. So then I started doing a little supply chain sleuthing of my own and found a much better solution to that. And the question that she asked was, do you think it would be legal for me to do that for my patients? And the answer is of course no. But that set off a 14 month investigation on how to bring that into the legal market, which is what we're eventually working on.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Why don't you tell us just sort of the basics of what you do, what is the service your business provides?

[Zach David]

So very similar to what I went through, A lot of these peptide therapies are multi year or lifelong and they exist. And people are going to Chinese peptides to find cheaper solutions. And so we started pushing for independent testing, for endotoxin screening, for heavy metals testing, which the incumbents in the industry were not doing at all at the time. And now pretty much everybody is.

[Tracy Alloway]

So I have so many questions already, but how do you actually go about finding a supplier for a particular peptide? Because I imagine, you know, you're dealing with people who are all the way over in China. There's probably a lot of different companies to choose from and not that much information out there about them. How do you even begin to go about doing this?

[Zach David]

There's a good mix of how to find them a lot advertise on say, TikTok or they'll find you on WhatsApp. They will hunt down your website and then introduce themselves as suppliers. And so we go through a long vetting process. By some estimates there are 10 major manufacturers and there are a handful that manufacture in house. And then there's something called lyophilization, which is kind of like the finishing step that puts it in the bottles. We basically, we're just constantly talking to new potential suppliers and we'll give them a try. We'll send everything out for testing. And the labs that we use are based in the US that follow USP standards and FDA guidelines, which is a little bit different than some, some of the more popular testing labs that are overseas.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay, talk us through the step by step. Okay, you find a supplier based in China, you like them, whatever, etc. Where does it arrive when it gets to the US does it go to the lab first? Does it go to you? If it goes to you, what percentage of vials or what percentage of whatever is actually checked such that you can say, okay, this is a good batch, right?

[Zach David]

So we randomly sample from, say we order 1,000 vials, we'll randomly sample between three and five. And if the variance in the quality is very tight and we consider that a good batch, we famously throw out batches we don't consider up to our standards. And sometimes we'll post pictures of us dumping it in the trash on Twitter, which gets us a little cachet. But it's not fun to dump money in the garbage. But, but sometimes you have to do it.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Can I just ask about the sequence of the chain in particular, because it is a peptide, what is the type of storage that it has to be involved in from the container on the ship to the dock? Is it a temperature type thing? How do you ensure that sort of quality doesn't degrade during the shipping process?

[Zach David]

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, if you were shipping very large amounts, you would want a cold chain supply the entire route. However, the lyophilization process keeps things shelf stable for quite a long time. And recent studies have shown that it doesn't degrade as fast as people initially thought. So when we use commercial grade freezers, as soon as we get it in and then we'll, you know, we'll label the vials and then we'll randomly sample.

[Tracy Alloway]

Tell us more about the manufacturers in China because I'm having a sort of hard time wrapping my head around who they actually are. So I take it most of them are not big pharma offshoots, they're sort of independent manufacturers. But how are these companies actually, I guess coming into being?

[Zach David]

Yeah, so there's an interesting mix of where the gray market manufacturers and well, let's call it the lit market manufacturers. There are a handful of 10 to 15 billion dollars publicly traded companies in China that do contract manufacturing, but they only sell to FDA supply like FDA registered companies with supply chains, the major gray market labs. They only sell to other companies within China who then finish it with the lyophilization and then sell directly to the consumers.

[Tracy Alloway]

And what's the actual material that makes up a peptide? When we're talking about peptides, like what are the building blocks of a particular, you know, I get a vial in the mail, what is it exactly?

[Zach David]

So the FDA definition is that is is a an amino acid chain of 40 or less. That definition was added to the Federal Register in 2020. And it is no surprise that things like semaglutide, otherwise known as ozempic, mounjaro, otherwise known as Tirzepatide, and the next generation that everyone is currently using called retatrutide all happen to be exactly 39 in length. So I think there was some clever lobbying. But also things less than 50 tend to be very stable, unlike larger proteins which tend to fold it on themselves. And the manufacturing process called solid phase peptide synthesis is almost a solved problem.

[Tracy Alloway]

But how do we actually make amino acids?

[Zach David]

That is a good question. I would have to follow up with you on that. Some are naturally derived and some are synthetic. The resurgence in peptides from its original heyday is partially due to synthetic amino acids.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Just talk to us about law and regulation. What is the stance of these things? I actually still don't totally understand. Are they legal to be sold, I don't know what this term gray market means, et cetera. Just walk to us about how the government, whether we're talking criminal authorities or just FDA type authorities, think about these things right now.

[Zach David]

So the guidance is very, very careful. There has to be a lot of disclaimers about not for human use on anything sold for research purposes. Doctors can prescribe them. For example, there's one called Sermorelin where it was abandoned by the manufacturer for economic reasons, not for safety reasons in around 2008. But you can get it from compounding pharmacies in the United States. And so doctors will was formally FDA approved. However, things from compounding pharmacies do not undergo the same safety standards. But doctors will still prescribe stuff like that. The fda, I think how we put this, when it's for research use only and you're legitimately selling for research use, it does not fall under there. You just.

[Tracy Alloway]

So a lot of people are conducting peptide research in the comfort of their own homes.

[Zach David]

Yes. As I'm sure most oddlass listeners are aware, the market for micropipettes is growing 8% year over year projected through 30 30. So I do believe that a lot of people have the home labs. Yeah.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Wait, micropipettes, what are we.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yes, little pipettes.

[Joe Weisenthal]

This is. What is that? Oh, that's like a little thing to extract some liquid. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. So this is our proxy for peptide consumption. Is the booming market for micropipettes.

[Zach David]

Is the booming market for micropipettes.

[Tracy Alloway]

I'll take it.

[Zach David]

So that's a little. It's a little tongue in cheek, but.

[Joe Weisenthal]

No, no, no. But this is useful. It's like, okay, like if we see this thing rising, then intuitively this is what they're using for. So in your marketing, what do you have to say such as that you don't run afoul of people in D.C. or wherever?

[Zach David]

We have strict terms and conditions for researchers only labeled on the boxes, labeled on the vials lab. On their website, we do not even use the term dosing. We only talk about sample sizes and just. We are very, very, very pro research. But there is a big movement of people who self organize in telegram and discord communities who are experimenting on themselves.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Longtime Internet friend of the podcast burb chairman Burbank. I saw she had a Chinese peptide rave in San Francisco this week.

[Zach David]

Yes, yes, we sponsored it. It was nice. We had a great time. She's a very, very, very good friend of mine.

[Tracy Alloway]

I'm guessing that's the same one Jasmine went to.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Probably, I assume.

[Tracy Alloway]

Unless they're.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I'm here in San Francisco. Could there be two Chinese peptide raves in wind weekend? Would not surprise me at the slightest.

[Tracy Alloway]

So Zach, how do you actually decide which peptides to stock? Is it whichever ones are getting the Most buzz on TikTok? Do the manufacturers approach you with new things that they're making and then you test them out?

[Zach David]

That's a. Yeah, that's a very good question. Because the formularies change a lot. Although between the manufacturers and the suppliers, they do have very, very similar formularies. The ones who deal with the controlled substances and anabolics we tend to stay away from. But the ones that we stock, we look for good safety profiles in humans. Unfortunately for almost all of these, there are not a lot of good randomized control trials, but that a lot of them have good safety studies in humans. But so certain things like there's a popular one called AOD 9604 which has not had a successful human trial ever. And so we just decided not to stock that for ethical reasons.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay, so we know that in theory. Well, we know more than in theory that the most famous peptides can curb your appetite and therefore facilitate weight loss. Tracy had a little thing of a spray that ostensibly helped autists make better eye contact, which is of course a valuable skill if you want to live in human civilization. What are some of the other, what are some of the other popular. What are the other things that people are consuming? Peptides. Are there any that might surprise us?

[Zach David]

So there is a class called growth hormone releasing peptides or growth hormone stimulating peptides. They have very short half lives. Rather than like HGH replacement therapy, like human growth hormone replacement therapy, which will eventually cause your body to naturally stop producing its own, this class works with your pituitary to make like an impulse and release some growth hormone rather than replace it.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So that's like weightlifters or bodybuilders or anyone who just wants more strength or that what we're talking about.

[Zach David]

And yeah, and it's also been increasingly prescribed by physicians for improved sleep as.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Well, could use that.

[Tracy Alloway]

Why don't we manufacture peptides in the US how is it that China seems to dominate this particular market?

[Zach David]

That is a great question as well. I believe it's the input, input materials and the labor and expertise required to engineer it. What happens is a lot of the raw materials are produced in China and then over here they're finished in facilities like doing the lyophilization and purification steps by compounding pharmacies.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay, everyone who uses these, they have to inject them. Is this, is it all needles and vials?

[Zach David]

Mostly. At this time, however, we've seen an increasing amount of oral formulations. The problem is because these are small molecules, the digestive system breaks them down very quickly. So creating reliable oral formulations for peptide therapies has been historically very difficult.

[Public Investing Advertisement Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosure is [e-mail] Disclosures hi, I'm.

[Jasmine Sun]

Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail]. Happy Dance Empty bowl, Tail in overdrive. That's the Ollie Effect. Fresh human grade dog food your pup will love. Ollie delivers clean nutrition in five delicious recipes made with real ingredients in the US no fillers, no preservatives, just real food that supports your dog's health from the inside out. Start with a quick 30 second [e-mail] gopup to create a personalized meal plan based on your dog's age, weight, activity level and health goals. New subscribers get a welcome kit with two weeks of meals, a free storage container and a step by step guide to help with the transition. With Ollie, you'll see more energy, shinier cook coats, healthier weight, and yes, easier cleanup. Dogs deserve the best. Go to ollie.com gopup and use code gopup to get 60% off your first box. That's o l l I e dot com gopup. It's backed by a happiness guarantee, so if it's not the right fit, you'll get your money back.

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[Tracy Alloway]

O Lindio.com how do you reduce costs in this space? Is it buying in bulk from a particular supplier or I don't know, finding cheaper manufacturers of vials and the lionization process, ionization process, Lyophilization process.

[Zach David]

Lyophilization, it's just a fancy word for freeze drying.

[Tracy Alloway]

Okay, all right, the freeze drying process then. That's easier.

[Zach David]

Yeah. So it is buying in larger and larger quantities. One of our manufacturing partners over there, they created a novel method of being able to produce large quantities of raw materials. And the next step in our company's evolution is going to be buying a manufacturing facility and starting to do that Finishing step here and slowly over time bring this above board and fully FDA compliant.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Am I stupid for not using peptides? I work in a very competitive industry. I have a very demanding schedule. I have two children, I'm 45 and so I'm at the second half of the curve and my body is getting a little deteriorating and getting a little bit closer to death each day. Like am I stupid for like not tasting the fruits of advanced science?

[Zach David]

That is a question between you and your physician.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Okay, that is a very smart answer. Do you feel that it is an important element of your ability to thrive and compete your research into peptides?

[Zach David]

I do. I like them a lot. I've noticed a lot of good changes, especially my health, my energy over the years. But I also do work closely with a physician and under the care of one.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Can I ask you a little bit about marketing? How do people discover your company?

[Zach David]

How do people discover. So let's see, word of mouth has been great of several influencers have written about like the cost effectiveness of our product. And then there's a website called Finric which has started to offer this wonderful service where people can send in files from anyone that they buy from off any of these research use only sites. I think they've cover over 140 companies now and we've started to take number one slots on their site just left and right. So I Think we're doing something. We're doing something a little bit better than everyone else.

[Tracy Alloway]

So people are crowdsourcing a lot of the research and reviews. And also, I guess you hold peptide raves, right? That's a marketing thing.

[Zach David]

That was, that was once. It might happen again. You know, I'm not much of a. I'm not much of a dancer, but I did, I did field some questions.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Something that sort of works a little bit like human growth hormone, I guess. It was very appealing. Weight loss. Again, concentrate. Are there any surprising peptides? What's the most unexpected thing that a peptide might in research suggest could benefit someone?

[Zach David]

I don't know if I should say this out loud.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That means you definitely should say it out loud. Yeah.

[Zach David]

Okay. Well, there is one peptide that goes under the name PT141, its brand name. It's actually an FDA approved one. It's called Vilisi and it is meant for low sex drive.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That's very completely legitimate. Nothing wrong with saying that out loud for men and women.

[Jasmine Sun]

Okay.

[Zach David]

It's meant for women, but according to people that I who have told me it works for men as well.

[Tracy Alloway]

Many people are saying, what's the customs process actually like for this? Because I imagine, I mean, customs is a pain at the best of times and I imagine for something like this, it's potentially even more complicated. And then also, have you been impacted by tariffs at all?

[Zach David]

Yeah, it was really fun to see the first time a UPS driver ask for cash on delivery since like 1998. You know, why is cash on delivery. That was when they, when tariffs first came back and no one really knew. No one had the infrastructure to charge in advance. Now they'll, now they'll let you know, hey, you're gonna owe $30 here, $60 here.

[Tracy Alloway]

There's like an online payment portal too, right? Yeah, it's not.

[Zach David]

But originally there wasn't. Originally there wasn't. The driver showed up and wanted a check. It was crazy.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I'm reading about this PT141. So unlike Viagra, which famously opens up blood flow pathways, this one, its method of action is actually to increase the underlying sexual excitement itself, which is sort of different. Anyway, it's interesting.

[Zach David]

I have heard, I have heard that it works.

[Joe Weisenthal]

We've heard that it works. Yep.

[Zach David]

I don't have any experience with it, but I've heard that it works.

[Tracy Alloway]

Wait, so what does the customs documentation actually look like when the stuff arrives at a port? What forms are you filling out?

[Zach David]

They're fun. They're. They're Hat they're, you know, half a Mandarin. So it's a little difficult.

[Joe Weisenthal]

No, it's scan and chatgpt. We're fine. Language doesn't matter these days.

[Tracy Alloway]

How long do you think it's going to take, if it happens at all, for these sorts of peptides to become, as you put it, above board in.

[Zach David]

The US So there's an interesting history there. So the most popular ones, basically, in September 2023, we call the peptide Armageddon. About 1720 of the most popular ones that were prescribed by doctors in the wellness and longevity community were put on this, what's called the 503 a banned list. And they banned the prescribing of or the compounding of certain peptides. And according to my physician, it was not for particularly good scientific reasons, but the explanation that they give is that it can trigger immune responses that adverse immune responses.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Last question for me. Has there been any change in DC since the changing of the administration in terms of either at the FDA or otherwise?

[Zach David]

I go through all of the enforcement letters that the fso. You can go on the website and you can see every enforcement letter and every warning letter that they send to every single website. And I believe the last one ever sent was December 2024. So there has not been. That tells you a lot of enforcement.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, yeah, that's a pretty big hint. All right, Zach, we're gonna leave it there, but thank you so much for coming on. Odd lots. That was super interesting.

[Zach David]

I'm such a huge fan of yours.

[Joe Weisenthal]

It's been great.

[Tracy Alloway]

Oh, thank you.

[Joe Weisenthal]

We're gonna use that in the sizzle reel. Thank you so much.

[Tracy Alloway]

So, Joe, that was really interesting. So fun episode. Obviously it intersects with a bunch of odd lots themes, primarily competition with China in the biotech space and also supply chain issues and medical regulation.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Are we going to see the White House adopt a industrial policy to wean us off of our dependence on China for experimental peptides? Anyone talk about that?

[Tracy Alloway]

What I was about to say is actually we've talked about this before, but you could envision a world where knowledge becomes very commodified because of AI. And so everyone's competitive edge is basically what you look like, how you present yourself and interact with others. So maybe in that economy, peptides have a lot of value.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Absolutely. I could totally say it. I mean, I think. I mean, the way I think about that question is we don't even need to talk about AI in the sense that you. We are already on this path. Right. People have been looks maxing prior to the invention of chatbots, people have felt ever since the. Maybe since the iPhone or maybe since Instagram, et cetera, looks have always mattered.

[Tracy Alloway]

But I think we're at a different point.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, no, what I'm saying is like, this already feels like it's accelerating some of these trends. Absolutely. Looks have always mattered. People have always been anxious about their weight, et cetera. But it does feel like this pressure is just building where everyone is thinking about these things. Everyone feels very competitive, all of these things, and everyone is open about how competitive they are.

[Tracy Alloway]

Very open. It's kind of surprising.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah.

[Tracy Alloway]

There was a time when people didn't talk about things like their plastic surgery, but it seems very more transparent than it used to be. The other thing I was thinking about, just in terms of regulation, I mean, it's notable that it's a gray market.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Right.

[Tracy Alloway]

As we described. And ostensibly everyone is doing peptide research in their basements. And that's kind of a joke. Right. But on the other hand, it's not really a joke because what we're doing is kind of outsourcing human trials, I guess, to, like, citizens who are opting in. They're the ones opting in to test these new treatments.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You know, it's interesting. We did that. We did that episode with DA Wallach, and he talked about how we could have a model of sort of market for pharmaceuticals and therapies in which the only thing required to sell something is the safety trial. Right now, for any therapy, we do safety and then efficacy. But it is very. You could argue that really the only thing that should be required is a safety trial. And then it's up to the consumer or whatever. You know, I think you could make that argument that then it's up to the doctor and the consumer together to decide is this worthwhile given the price of what we know about, etc. But what it feels like to me is we're sort of entering this era in which regardless of what the formal law states or what regulations state, there is a cultural move towards letting people experiment as they want with things that, by and large, it doesn't sound like there's much evidence of particularly harmful, dangerous with a lot of this stuff.

[Tracy Alloway]

Maybe no one has died from peptides that I know.

[Joe Weisenthal]

As far as I know, I haven't seen that, et cetera. And so it feels like we're sort of, you know, this is part of the hacker culture. It's like, okay, there's probably not much danger, I suppose, but what it does for you, that's on, you to figure out.

[Tracy Alloway]

All right, thank you everyone who is experimenting with Peptides. You're doing it for the greater good, I'm sure. Shall we leave it there?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Let's leave it there.

[Tracy Alloway]

This has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. Follow her against Jasmine Sun. She's he Jasmine New Son and Zach David. He's at Zack David Fellow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashiell Bennett at dashbot and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. For more Odd Lots content go to bloomberg.com oddlots we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes and you can chat about all of these topics 24. 7 in our discord discord gg oddlaws.

[Tracy Alloway]

And if you enjoy odd lots, if you like it when we talk about the Peptide supply chain, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg Channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

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