Zichen Wang's Exit Interview From America

Summary

Odd Lots Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Zichen Wang's Exit Interview From America
Host/Authors: Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway
Release Date: June 20, 2025

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Introduction

In this special episode of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast, hosts Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway engage in an in-depth conversation with Zhishan Wang, a Princeton-educated public policy expert and the creator of the Pekinology Substack newsletter. Recorded on June 5, amidst escalating tensions between the United States and China, the episode delves into Zhishan's experiences as a Chinese student in the U.S., the broader implications of deteriorating U.S.-China relations, and the future of international education and collaboration.

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Context of U.S.-China Relations

[01:45] Joe Weisenthal:
The episode begins with a discussion about a recent phone call between President Xi Jinping and former President Donald Trump. Joe expresses surprise at the rarity and significance of such direct communication between the two nations, noting the impact it had on the markets.

[02:16] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy humorously imagines Trump waiting in the Oval Office for Xi's call, highlighting the unusual nature of the interaction.

[03:24] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe reflects on the lack of direct contact between the U.S. and China since the September 11 attacks, emphasizing the mutual confusion and lack of understanding between the two countries despite their significant geopolitical competition.

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Introducing Zhishan Wang

[04:30] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy introduces Zhishan Wang, emphasizing that this episode serves as his exit interview as he prepares to return to China after completing his master's degree at Princeton's School of Public and International Affairs.

[04:45] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe highlights the timing of Zhishan’s departure, coinciding with increased scrutiny of Chinese students in American universities under the Trump administration's policies.

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Journey to the United States

[05:06] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe asks Zhishan about his motivations for pursuing further education in the U.S.

[05:24] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan explains that after 13 years in his professional career, he sought advanced education. He chose Princeton for its fully funded program, which covered tuition, healthcare, and provided a living stipend—a significant factor in his decision over other international options.

Notable Quote:
"I couldn't think of a better place to be here in the U.S. but you know, here we are and I feel like being overwhelmed by all these news."
— Zhishan Wang [05:24]

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Plans to Return to China

[06:30] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy inquires whether Zhishan always planned to return to China after his studies or if this decision arose more recently.

[06:37] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan confirms that returning to China was his primary plan, influenced by personal reasons and the increasingly challenging political climate in the U.S. He mentions the U.S. State Department's efforts to revoke Chinese students' visas and impose stricter scrutiny, making extended stays uncertain.

[07:30] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy asks about Princeton's support regarding visa issues for international students.

[07:41] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan shares that Princeton has been proactive, providing resources, counseling, and legal support to help students navigate the evolving immigration landscape, especially in light of recent incidents at other universities like Harvard.

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Impact on Chinese Students in the U.S.

[08:36] Zhishan Wang:
He discusses the "chilling effect" of U.S. policies on Chinese students, noting that while he personally feels welcomed and supported, many of his peers may be too fearful to voice their concerns. He highlights that China remains the second-largest source of international students in the U.S., though its numbers have declined due to strained bilateral relations.

[10:10] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy references the historical context of Chinese student migration to the U.S., noting how U.S. policies once warmly welcomed Chinese students, facilitating significant cultural and intellectual exchange.

[12:29] Marc Reape Advertisement:
An advertisement segment briefly interrupts the conversation.

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Educational Experiences: U.S. vs. China

[15:13] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy asks Zhishan to compare public policy education in the U.S. versus China.

[15:28] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan elaborates on the differences, noting that U.S. policy schools like Princeton are designed for full-time study, allowing students to take sabbaticals from their careers. In contrast, Chinese policy programs are often part-time due to the rigid personnel management systems, making it difficult for students to commit to extended studies. He also praises the diverse, international environment at Princeton, which enriches the learning experience.

[17:19] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe inquires about Zhishan's undergraduate background.

[17:22] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan reveals he majored in finance at a Chinese university and later joined Xinhua News Agency.

Notable Quote:
"It's really stimulating for me personally."
— Zhishan Wang [23:31]

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Chinese Students' Contributions and Challenges

[18:03] Zhishan Wang:
He contrasts the emphasis on STEM fields in Chinese education with the broader liberal arts approach in American universities. Zhishan highlights China's focus on producing large numbers of STEM graduates to drive technological advancement, citing statistics like Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang's claim that 50% of global AI talent is of Chinese heritage.

[20:07] Zhishan Wang:
Discussing his time at Xinhua, Zhishan touches on familial expectations and societal values, noting that despite pressures to pursue "real" professions like finance and journalism, the prevailing belief in China still favors STEM disciplines.

[22:09] Zhishan Wang:
Emphasizes the symbiotic relationship between Chinese students and American research institutions, asserting that their contributions are not merely extractive but mutually beneficial.

Notable Quote:
"This is a symbiotic process, not an extractive process."
— Zhishan Wang [22:09]

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Technology and Innovation: The Case of Electric Vehicles (EVs)

[26:17] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe probes into Zhishan's views on China's industrial strategies, particularly in the EV sector.

[26:50] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan explains that China's EV boom is driven largely by private companies like BYD and Xiaomi, rather than state-run enterprises. He argues that while state policies and subsidies laid the groundwork, the true innovation and competitiveness come from the private sector's agility and ingenuity.

Notable Quote:
"There is this discrepancy with all the power of industrial strategies but at the same time it's the private engine continuity of the innovation of the hard work of the private Chinese companies which have somehow come out atop all the state-run companies."
— Zhishan Wang [26:50]

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Perceptions and Misunderstandings Between the U.S. and China

[24:45] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy asks Zhishan about the biggest misunderstandings between the U.S. and China.

[25:11] Zhishan Wang:
He suggests that the U.S. often views China as a monolithic entity controlled solely by the Communist Party, overlooking the complexities and internal politics within China. Zhishan emphasizes the competitive and innovative spirit of Chinese society beyond state directives, advocating for a more nuanced understanding to reduce strategic misunderstandings.

[28:56] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe discusses the perception that private Chinese companies like Huawei are controlled by the CCP, questioning why global companies are not given similar scrutiny.

[30:42] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy raises a theory that the U.S. and China are adopting each other's economic and policy strategies, prompting Zhishan to reflect on this convergence.

[33:04] Zhishan Wang:
He elaborates on how both nations are adopting similar approaches in certain areas, such as the U.S. strengthening its supply chains and China boosting consumer spending and social safety nets. Zhishan underscores the importance of people-to-people dialogues to maintain long-term stability and reduce the risk of conflict.

Notable Quote:
"We need people-to-people dialogues."
— Zhishan Wang [26:17]

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Controversies and Perceptions of CCP Influence

[34:09] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe references the controversy surrounding Zhishan's affiliations, noting criticisms from politicians like Marco Rubio regarding ties between Chinese think tanks and the CCP.

[35:08] Zhishan Wang:
Zhishan clarifies his background, distancing himself from being a direct CCP representative. He emphasizes the importance of Chinese voices in U.S. institutions to foster understanding and prevent misconceptions.

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Soft Power and Cultural Diplomacy

[48:43] Zhishan Wang:
He advocates for maintaining cultural and educational exchanges as a means of soft power, cautioning against treating Chinese students as mere pawns in geopolitical strategies. Zhishan stresses that personal interactions and mutual understanding are crucial for preventing conflicts and fostering stable international relations.

[50:28] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe reflects on the diminishing appreciation for America's soft power, questioning whether the American public recognizes the benefits it yields in international relations.

[51:15] Tracy Alloway:
Tracy responds by encouraging individuals to engage more globally, suggesting that personal travel and interactions can bridge cultural gaps and enhance mutual understanding.

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Conclusion

[48:12] Joe Weisenthal:
Joe thanks Zhishan for his insightful contributions, expressing hope that Zhishan will continue his influential work in China.

[48:54] Joe Weisenthel:
Final remarks emphasize the importance of resources like Zhishan's Pekinology for bridging the information gap between the U.S. and China.

[51:32 - 53:34] Closing Remarks and Ads:
The episode concludes with promotional segments for upcoming shows and events, maintaining the podcast's informative and engaging tone.

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Key Takeaways

1. Personal Experiences:
   Zhishan Wang's journey underscores the complexities faced by international students amidst geopolitical tensions. His positive experiences at Princeton contrast with the broader anxieties stemming from U.S. policies towards Chinese nationals.

2. Educational Systems:
   A comparative analysis reveals significant differences between U.S. and Chinese public policy education, particularly in terms of program structure and international diversity.

3. Technological Innovation:
   The success of China's EV sector, driven by private enterprises, challenges the notion that state-controlled companies are superior in innovation. This highlights the critical role of the private sector in China's technological advancements.

4. Misunderstandings and Dialogue:
   Zhishan advocates for nuanced understanding and direct communication between the U.S. and China to mitigate strategic miscalculations and foster cooperative relations.

5. Soft Power:
   The episode emphasizes the enduring value of cultural and educational exchanges in maintaining international relationships and preventing conflict, despite rising nationalism and strategic rivalries.

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Notable Quotes

• Zhishan Wang:
  "This is a symbiotic process, not an extractive process." [22:09]

• Zhishan Wang:
  "We need people-to-people dialogues." [26:17]

• Zhishan Wang:
  "It is really something very important in my mind." [23:31]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Odd Lots provides a compelling exploration of the intricate dynamics between U.S. educational institutions and Chinese students amidst strained bilateral relations. Through Zhishan Wang's perspectives, listeners gain valuable insights into the personal and systemic challenges faced by international students, the evolving landscape of global education, and the critical importance of maintaining open channels of communication to uphold global stability and mutual understanding.

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For more insights and detailed discussions on finance, markets, and economics, subscribe to Odd Lots on your favorite podcast platform or join the conversation on Bloomberg's Discord.

Transcript

[Joe Weisenthal]

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[Marc Reape]

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[Zhishan Wang]

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[Zhishan Wang]

News.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

[Tracy Alloway]

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Tracy, we're recording this June 5, President Xi Jinping and President Trump just held a phone call.

[Tracy Alloway]

Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation?

[Joe Weisenthal]

I would. I don't know what that means. Markets moved on it. I'm always surprised how hard it is to set up phone call, just pick up the phone. But I'm always a little surprised that like these are like bigger news. It should be noted that this was reported first by the Xinhua News Agency out of China. And there was a headline that the news agency specified that the phone call was at Trump's request. They made a point of saying that.

[Tracy Alloway]

I still have this image of Trump sitting in the Oval Office by the phone, just like twiddling his thumbs, waiting for Xi Jinping to call. Like hoping, is he going to call me? Should I wait two days, should I wait three days before responding, that kind of thing.

[Joe Weisenthal]

There was a Wall Street Journal article I saw from a few weeks ago which made the observation which I had not realized outside of the September 11th terrorist attacks. There's never been a contact between the US and China that was initiated by China, which I hadn't realized before. I assume it's true.

[Tracy Alloway]

So Xi Jinping is sitting in his office twiddling his. Waiting for Trump. Okay.

[Joe Weisenthal]

But he decides to either take the call anyway. All of this sort of speaks to the fact, you know, we sort of are confused by all this. And there's still just so much that I think Americans in particular and. But I'm sure it goes in both directions, like, genuinely don't understand about the other country. And given a time of increased tension, obviously the trade war heightened geopolitical concerns, and it's not great. I think it would be better even if we sort of accept the premise of there is this very intense competition, that the two countries and the populations and the governments and the people going to governments just know more about how they work.

[Tracy Alloway]

Absolutely. Have you ever read an English translation of the Way China academics write and talk about American society and American politics?

[Joe Weisenthal]

I should read this.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's really, really interesting.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You should send me some links.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah, okay, I will. But I know a person who has done this and translated it and done the work, and he will definitely send you some link.

[Joe Weisenthal]

So I am very excited to say that we have a. And I think it should be a special episode. We've talked to him on the podcast before. We're gonna be speaking with Zhishan Wang. He is the author, the creator of the Pekinology substack, which essentially looks at public comments from officials, academics, leaders in China, and then writes about them and translates them for an American audience and actually sort of helps an American audience understand, like, what this sort of, like, public discourse is. And anyway, over the last year, he's been getting his mast degree in public policy at the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs. So he's been in Princeton over the last year, but he's going back to China and he's going to return from where he was working at the think tank, the center for China and Globalization.

[Tracy Alloway]

Right. So this is his exit interview from America.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Basically, when I heard that he was leaving town, I was like, let's do an exit interview. And of course, the other added context, which I think is very relevant here, is that this comes a time of extreme scrutiny on the mere existence of Chinese students at American universities, particularly out of the Trump administration. It's an American export, US Universities, and there's this major crackdown. We've seen all these concerns about visas, et cetera. So there's a perfect time to do this exit Interview. So, Zhishan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, thank you for having me here back again.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You run a great newsletter and we had a great episode with you. And as a student in the US you're sort of situated at a very interesting time. But let's back up. What prompted you to come to the US to study in the first place? I mean, you did this program at Princeton. How come?

[Zhishan Wang]

Before coming to the mid career Master in Public Policy program at Princeton School of Public International affairs, formerly known as the Woodrow Wilson School, I'd already been working for 13 years. So I was like at the middle of my professional trajectory and I was thinking about getting another advanced education. And of course the United States is the top destination. One other thing is that but to the credit of Princeton, the policy school offers fully funded education. So that means they examine all the tuition and the healthcare coverage.

[Joe Weisenthal]

No export revenue for us.

[Zhishan Wang]

Yes, exactly. In this case, yes. And also a living stipend. And so I turned down some other offers from the uk, from Singapore and came here. And also as you correctly mentioned at the very beginning, you know, China US relations is perhaps the most consequential bilateral relations. For someone whose past career was in journalism and non governmental think tank. I couldn't think of a better place to be here in the U.S. but you know, here we are and I feel like being overwhelmed by all these news.

[Tracy Alloway]

So on that note, was the plan always to go back to China after you completed your degree or is this something new?

[Zhishan Wang]

That was like 80 or 90% of my plan, mainly for personal reasons, but also I think the political atmosphere is a bit overwhelming. I did have some kind offers from potential employers here, but I decided against them. The State Department announced actually, you know, they are going to aggressively revoke Chinese students visas as well as impose, you know, further scrutiny on future Chinese students visa applications. Let's say I stay on for one more year. I would be on OPT or cpt, which is a post training upon graduation from a US college. But that status would be linked to your student visa, your F1 visa. So the potential consequences for Chinese students is not just currently enrolled students, but also other, you know, people who are on OPT CPT status here.

[Tracy Alloway]

Out of curiosity, is Princeton providing guidance on visas? Because I can only imagine being a college student and having to deal with immigration issues on top of everything else.

[Zhishan Wang]

In light of what happened at Harvard, let me think of a way of not putting Princeton in jeopardy again. I did get, I think not just me, but everyone else did get some Emails from, you know, sort of guidance from the university which says it took notice of recent news and it is offering resources, basically, I guess, you know, counseling as well as potential legal resources for people to not to be against the administration but to comply with all the laws and regulations in this country.

[Joe Weisenthal]

This was a one year program, obviously, say, versus 10 years ago. The sort of level of suspicion and anxiety about the presence of a lot of Chinese students at American universities has grown quite a bit. What about even in the last year, how do things feel shifted? And when you talk to other Chinese students, is it just like noise coming out of D.C. or does it change the campus environment?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, I think it definitely has already had a shilling effect. And I mean, for me personally, I feel very welcomed and I feel all the hospitality and warmth from my American professors, you know, school administrators and the Princeton community of neighbors and my local friends. But for, you know, most of the Chinese students who are currently in this situation are perhaps too scared to speak up. And especially after the news last week, I think they are under a bit of stress because the announcement out of the state parliament is very broad. It doesn't use very exact language to ascertain who will exactly be in trouble. There are Currently, I think 270,000 Chinese students here in the United States. China is the second largest origin of international students here in the US and what's the first? India. So for many years, China was the largest source of international students here in America. But that number has come down since bilateral relations worsened. The United States has a proud history of welcoming Chinese students who come to the United States. In the beginning of the 20th century, when China was still governed by the Qing dynasty, there was this Boxer indemnities, basically the compensations paid by then Qing dynasty to various Western powers. And at that time the U.S. was, you know, kind enough and smart enough to turn those compensations into a scholarship program which, see this was part of.

[Tracy Alloway]

Their like money diplomacy of the early 1900s, right?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well before Joseph Nye created the concept of soft power and the US has been practicing that. So they ceded a top university in Beijing and sponsored 1300 Chinese students to come to the United States. And after the bilateral ties were established, since the two countries normalized their diplomatic relations, Republican and Democratic presidents both welcomed Chinese students. There was this very famous episode where Chinese top leader Deng Xiaoping at the time asked, you know, if he could send something like 5,000 Chinese students to the US and President Carter, according to his own recollections, he responded that, well, tell him, tell Deng xiaoping to send 100,000 students to America. I also read President Ronald Reagan actually received the Chinese students and made remarks in some sort of reception welcoming them. And let's remember that was a time when China was much less open and dynamic than it is today. So what is happening is really unfortunate. I think because of this long history. Many Chinese took for granted the opportunities to come here and study in America if they are good enough to be offered admission letters. But the larger background is of course, I guess globalization, because for many, many years people just believe, you know, everyone is going to be more connected and we will benefit from more people to people, exchanges from commerce, from, you know, research collaborations. But unfortunately that era seems to be ending right now, while it may have begun to be ending quite a few years ago.

[Tracy Alloway]

Joe Just as an aside, there's a really good book called Fortunate Sons about some Chinese students who were sent to a Connecticut school in, I think the late 1800s.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Oh, I'd love to read that.

[Tracy Alloway]

It's really good. I read it when I bought that house in Connecticut to try to bridge the gap, I guess, between Hong Kong and where I was living.

[Marc Reape]

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[Tracy Alloway]

Near you I wanted to ask what's the difference or differences from your perspective in terms of what you would learn in a public policy degree in China versus a public policy degree at some place like Princeton?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, that's a very good question. I think there is this key difference is for example policy schools are mostly for early career and mid career professionals in public service sector. And here I think for example at Harvard Kennedy School, at the Jackson School of Global affairs, at Yale, at Princeton Spear, they are offered full time and that's because not just the US but also many governments across the world, they have the flexibility to allow their people to basically take a year or two years off their professional career and come here. But back in China I think many of those programs are taught as a part time process, although like they are labeled a full time process because I think sometimes the rigidity of personnel management system means that it's very difficult for people to basically leave work for a year or two and get a full time education at maybe Tsinghua and Peking University. And also here in the US I think the policy schools benefit greatly from first of all former policymakers like retired former assistance Secretary of State. And so here we have like many very good practitioners who are becoming, you know, teachers. We have for example President Spear, some former Biden administration officials who just exited the administration. Well I think in Chinese universities, to be fair, I haven't gone to those policy schools but that would be rare. And secondly, this place benefits from a much broader, well I guess this is a toxic word now diversity here. Now for example, my class is highly international. Like over half of the classmates are international students and also the faculty members some of them even come from foreign governments. I really benefited from the global perspectives I get from Princeton here.

[Joe Weisenthal]

What did you do for undergrad?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, I went to a Chinese college and majored in finance.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Actually, I don't know much about Chinese universities. The only thing I ever hear these days about Chinese universities is usually in the context of tech competition and the number of STEM graduates. And you hear a lot about the number of hundreds of thousands of STEM graduates and the advantages that sheer scale confers. When I think of American universities, they're stem, but I also think a lot about the heavy importance on liberal arts degrees and literature and history and people can go on to careers in tech and finance even from a history degree. Can you compare and contrast that sort of like intellectual environment at the Chinese colleges in terms of the non technical fields?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, this is something I think that has been observed and talked about in the past few years when people compare Chinese and American universities, but also between Chinese and I guess, Indian universities, because based on what I read, which may not be very accurate, it's like India also trains a lot of lawyers and social sciences majors. The general perception is that the Chinese colleges and universities are training many more STEM grads and you know, in semiconductor related, you know, mechanical engineering.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And everyone's a STEM grad, right? Yeah, of course. I mean, this is just what everyone's talking about these days because of this anxiety about tech competition.

[Zhishan Wang]

Oh yeah, that's correct. And almost all universities in China are state run. All the Ivy leagues are privately run universities here in the US Maybe, because I think China is still to some extent a transition economy. So China initiated its reform opening up in 1978, but before that it was a totally planned economy where the government basically tells everyone what to do, you know, in their schools and in their professional journeys. And based on those, you know, paradigms, a lot of Chinese universities are set up like to train people in a specific field. For example, there is this Beijing Aeronautics University which basically trains people, you know, in space related technology and maybe rocket science. And then there is also, you know, comprehensive universities. But for many years there was this maybe legacy. China learned from the Soviet Union to have specialized colleges and universities in training STEM grads. And also, you know, China has 1.4 billion people. It is now the second most populous country on earth. So naturally you will see, you know, there are just many, many more Chinese students there. And the Chinese, they put heavy emphasis on science and technology. Can I share one detail with you? Because I graduated from finance and I went on to join a news Agency in China.

[Tracy Alloway]

You are Xinhua.

[Zhishan Wang]

Yes, the same news agency. And my mother used to tell me, why don't you learn something real, like finance and journalism? They are not like real professionals. Well, I guess I didn't test very well in China's college entrance examination. For many years, there was this quote in China, and I think it still rings true, and maybe it rings even truer today. Well, in Chinese, it's called, like, if you learn mathematics and physics and chemistry, you can go everywhere and do and do well. And that is still on many Chinese minds. And so, for example, in AI, I think Jensen Huang of Nvidia, he said, like a few weeks ago, I think he was citing Marco Polo. A think tank here, formerly affiliated with the Poulsen Institute, is that 50% of the global AI talent is Chinese or maybe having some. Some sort of Chinese heritage. So that does speak to the enormous training capacity of the Chinese education system and which also makes many people wonder here, you know, AI is going to shape everything in the future. And the two countries seem to be locked in a competition. Does the US really want to shut out such a large talent pool in AI? And these students, Chinese students, you know, after completing their undergrad degrees, they come to the United States, they contribute to, meaningfully to groundbreaking research. And I think this is one thing that many people have a maybe an inaccurate understanding of how graduate level education, especially in STEM fields work. This is not an extractive process. It's not that, you know, Chinese, Indian, you know, students from Global south come to the US Universities, they learned, they sat in classrooms, they learned from their American professors and peers, and then they leave and brought the knowledge back with them. That's not the case. Yes, they benefit enormously from the education system here, which is just spectacular, but they make meaningful contributions in conducting research, in collaborating with American peers and professors. They stay in labs for days and months, which would result in papers in top American journals. They actually contribute to the creation of knowledge and the sharing of knowledge here. They contribute in the process. It's a symbiotic process, not an extractive process. So by having them here, and some of them, you know, would remain here legally, I should say, you know, to work in the US Become entrepreneurs and researchers and American taxpayers, to pursue their American dreams. And some of them would leave the US and go back to China, India and, you know, everywhere on Earth, and they would become, you know, informal ambassadors of American openness, of American inclusiveness, of American hospitality, and they would serve as one of the defense lines in terms of China, US Relations as decreasing mutual strategic misunderstanding and the miscalculations. So this is truly something very important in my mind. And I'm really saddened to see, you know, the crackdown on Chinese students to come to the United States.

[Tracy Alloway]

When you go back to China, what nice things are you going to say about America?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, the first thing I would tell them is I have the enormous privilege of coming to outlaws on Princeton, on Bloomberg. I'm sorry. And that's really.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That's the first thing. Okay, what's number two?

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, number two is I think I benefit a lot from all the critical discussions on oncologists. It's not just, you know, pro Trump or against Trump. We have very different views on all sorts of subjects. Some professors are rightfully worried about, for example, rule of law here, but we have also some classmates who have facult who are very sympathetic to what the broader Republican agenda is doing here in the United States. So I think this clash of different ideas, the market of free ideas, is something really stimulating for me personally. And the other reason is that, for example, I'm fully funded by Princeton Spear here. And so I benefit truly from the hospitality and the generosity of the American people here. Princeton is the private universities. The money coming in from private donations, I'm truly grateful for that. And I don't think, like any other country on the earth, simply has the financial capacity to do something like that. So this is something really should be cherished here. I will certainly carry all these lessons and appreciations back to China.

[Tracy Alloway]

We started this conversation talking about deteriorating U.S. china relations. And I don't think anyone would disagree with that premise. But the question I wanted to ask you is, as someone who's worked in both Chinese and Western institutions, or at least studied at a Western institution, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding between the US And China? What's the biggest sticking point?

[Zhishan Wang]

You mentioned the subsec. I did. Technology and all those. For example, I also had the privilege of being invited to some of the major think tanks here to share my views with fellow think tank analysts and for former government officials. I think if I really want to summarize, like what I've been doing is to normalize China because China has a vastly different political system from the United States, from all the major Western and industrial economies. I think people fundamentally see China as a different beast. But China also has politics. The Chinese government has many government departments, ministries. They compete with one another. There is politics between different departments, politics between different people. Inside one government department, the Chinese make five Year plans and they seem to be implementing that quite well. For example, Made in China, 2025 coming to mind. But sometimes they are also very short sighted. The Chinese have good accomplishments, they also make stupid mistakes. That's just human nature.

[Joe Weisenthal]

What are some examples of short sighted? Because Americans love to go to China and then they come back and they should, they think in centuries, unlike us who just think, you know, it's these very cliches, these very cliched commentary that you just hear over and over again. It's like we just think about the next quarterly estimate or hitting the next gdp when you say, obviously any society is going to be richer than these sort of cliche tropes that you know when you look back at decisions. Because as you mentioned, seems like the main 2025 stuff worked out really well. But where do you see it breaking down at times?

[Zhishan Wang]

For example, let's talk about EVs, right? You know, the electric vehicles. So everyone now knows that China is leading on EVs and people talk about BYD, about, you know, Xiaomi, the former smartphone maker turned automobile maker. And it seems like, you know, Ford and other US auto giants are falling behind. So many people attribute to some sort of Chinese state subsidies and industrial strategy. But bear also in mind that before this EV boom there were like a dozen Chinese automobile makers. Almost all of them were state run automobile companies because China implemented this. When foreign carmakers come to China, you have to form joint ventures with Chinese partners and in many cases the Chinese partners have to be in control of 51% of the joint venture. But all these Chinese state run automobile giants are actually falling behind. Now what you are seeing in the EV boom in China, the names coming to mind are all very new private run Chinese automobile makers. They didn't exist. They didn't benefit from the sort of state monopoly or preferential loans and maybe land and all these in kind subsidies for those. They basically partnered with BMW, with all these American and European car makers. But look, they are falling behind now.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Sorry. But on the other hand, I could listen to that story and say because of this requirement for JVs, the only possibility of actual private automobile development in China was for domestic companies and international companies never had that chance to actually sort of be truly autonomous within the Chinese domestic market. Seems like that worked out very well in the grand scheme of things for ensuring that the only companies with, with complete agility, et cetera, in the Chinese market ended up being Chinese.

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, first of all, that could be some sort of a good policy advice for the Trump administration. I guess and also maybe European governments.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And secondly, I'm very down with please bring BYD in a JV or something like that. I want a BYD gigafactory in Georgia or something like that. I've said that before. Anyway, keep going.

[Zhishan Wang]

What I was trying to say is there is this discrepancy with all the power of industrial strategies but at the same time it's the private engine continuity of the innovation of the hard work of the private Chinese companies which have somehow come out atop all the states run companies. They are falling behind at least in the automobile sector. And that shows that I think people tend to see China as a country with the Communist Party of China sitting on top. The state tells everyone what to do and marshaling all the resources. But it is also at the same time just a spectacularly competitive and innovative place where private ingenuity and hard work really plays a very big role. There is this saying In China, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 basically says, you know, over half of the GDP of the taxation of the new employment are all created by private companies. And so that's something when Americans perceive China, they think of just one very coherent, I don't know, behemoth where you know, there is this larger central brain telling everyone to do everything else. And yes, like the Chinese government, the Communist Party of China enjoys enormous power in telling, in shaping the Chinese society compared with Western powers. But do not discount and actually I think much more emphasis should be put on the non state part of the Chinese society society.

[Tracy Alloway]

You mentioned your mom thinking that doing finance and journalism was not very valuable. And one thing you sometimes hear is that China places greater importance or value on people studying stem, going into tech. And I guess I'm curious how much has that changed over the years. Like if I was a high school student in China in, I don't know, the 1990s, would I be encouraged to be a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher or would I be encouraged to go into tech? Like basically how has that culture of which subject is most valued changed over time?

[Zhishan Wang]

You are very sharp eyed. I think if it was in the 1990s people wanted to go to, I don't want to name names like certain finance schools in China and after graduation like they would want to work in Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. That's like the top jobs. Maybe when I graduated from college in 2011 that's still the case. What the people wanted to do because it makes huge money, it makes very big money. But especially in the past decade, I think I'm sure you have reported this. There is large cuts to the income to the wages of Chinese financial engineering. Even when it comes to the Internet sector. Facebook, now known as Meta and all those booms, they contribute to consumer Internet, that was a thing in China as well, like Alibaba and Tencent. What they do is they popularize some technologies which makes lives much easier for everyday consumers and also businesses. But in a sense, I think now more value is put into the sort of technologies that would really boost the productivity in, you know, industrial process. For example, even doctors and hospitals can identify certain diseases. It's not just, you know, I can go out and get a delivery much easier from a restaurant. So the term technology I think has taken on a new meaning. And if I can make a recommendation, there is this Dan Wang who I think is in. Yeah, law.

[Joe Weisenthal]

You don't need to recommend Dan Long to audience. We've had him on several times. I'm sure we'll do a big thing when his book comes out. Both Tracy and I have copies of it on our desk. You should go pre order it on Amazon right now.

[Zhishan Wang]

So basically, I think China is wishing to make basically these hard technologies more sexy than, you know, just joining a tech firm.

[Joe Weisenthal]

It's interesting, it sort of feels this is becoming an international phenomenon, that everyone is getting very anxious about their country's capacity to do hard tech. You are returning to China and you're gonna go back to the think tank, the center for China and Globalization. It's interesting, I'm looking at the controversy section in the Wikipedia page for it and Marco Rubio, who's now the Secretary of state in 2018, he actually blasted your school. He blasted the Woodrow Wilson School for inviting a scholar from the ccg and he said there were ties to the Chinese Communist Party. And ccg, according to Wikipedia, is a member of an alliance of think tanks coordinated by the International Department of the Chinese Communist Party that support the Belt and Road initiative which we've talked about on the show. Now granted, your situation strikes me as a little bit unique cuz most students coming to the US from China are not going to a public policy school on a one year funded thing. Why shouldn't American lawmakers, however, be concerned about training many of the next generation of leaders in a country that is perceived to be a major rival and doing work with them and training them in AI and all of these things that there is so much sort of, almost everyone accepts that there is going to be some degree of, you know, either geopolitical and business Competition.

[Zhishan Wang]

First of all, about the Wikipedia page you just mentioned.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Yeah, I know it's very, very thorough research I do here. I click out a link and I scroll to the controversy section. But I wanted to, you know, I saw both your think tank and the Wilson School have come under controversy for connections.

[Zhishan Wang]

The joke I typically make in this sort of conversations is that, well, I came from the state run news agency. Yeah, I was a proper Chinese government personnel and now people would characterize me as some sort of, you know the term united front, that's like semi government. You are downgrading me like I was proper Chinese government for 11 years. And I left in October 2022. And if we have time, I'd be happy to dive into the details of the difference between a government run think tank and a non governmental think tank in China. But to your larger point, there is this term which says keep your friends close and keep your enemy closer. I'm not sure exactly if China and us are enemies at the moment, but just from that insight, I think it will be very beneficial for the especially policy schools, but also other, you know, social sciences and universities to try to have Chinese contributions to have Chinese students presence here so that you know, when push comes to shove, they have someone to call. They know what the Chinese are really thinking about. And that is I think one of the tragedies from the crackdown on, for example, Harvard and Harvard Kennedy School.

[Shonali Basak]

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[Unknown]

I'm Shonali Basak and I have a new show. It's called Bullish and it's about the future of Wall Street. Join me and Ken Griffin, but Boaz Weinstein, Melody Hobson, Jane Fraser and others as I explore Wall street south. The rise of finfluencers. Oh And I learned how to count cards.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Another black die.

[Shonali Basak]

Oh my God.

[Zhishan Wang]

This is amazing TV.

[Unknown]

Watch Bullish Tuesdays on bloomberg.com or tune in live at 6pm Eastern on Bloomberg TV and 8pm Eastern on Bloomberg Originals.

[Tracy Alloway]

Join us in Seattle July 14th and 15th for Bloomberg Green. Two days of powerful conversations and meaningful conversations connections. We'll explore what's next in the climate, economy, clean tech policy and greener living. Featured speakers include Jane Fonda, Brian Gellert and Vinod Khosla. The title sponsor is Amazon. Official airlines are Alaska and Hawaiian Airlines. Learn more at BloombergLive.com GreenSeattle that's BloombergLive.com.

[Joe Weisenthal]

GreenSeattle you mentioned that there's a difference between properly state run think tanks and not state run think tanks. I think in the US there is a perception, and this actually goes back to the talk about companies, including car companies, et cetera. There is a perception that there's actually no private companies. That implicitly even the private companies, the BYDs, et cetera, are at some level at the beck and call of the state and some more literally than others. Eve Do's incredible book about Huawei talks a lot about there's a Communist party leadership within the company. It engages in making sure its members who are employees of the company engage in more moral behavior and aren't doing things like gambling, et cetera. Why shouldn't we think that every country within China, regardless of how it's incorporated, answers up to political leadership in Beijing?

[Zhishan Wang]

I think on a macro level, I do not see a drastic difference between for example, a US President wants to have like Nvidia or Apple to become the dominant forces in the world. And from the CHIPS act, from the inflation Reduction act to offering, you know, generous subsidies to American companies in China, there is this support for Chinese companies. But in many cases not from the very start. It's like, you know, Huawei started very little and it was competing with European telecom vendors at the very beginning. And for many years, you know, China Mobile, China Unicom, all the state telecommunication firms, they just wanted the equipment from the European suppliers.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And Huawei, it's a credible story.

[Zhishan Wang]

Yeah. And Huawei had to go to the European markets to increase its customers numbers and revenue. And after a few years, and especially when the industry became more strategic and, and then the Chinese government would, you know, take a look at of the potential players and believe, oh, this is perhaps an industry that's going be of strategic value in the future and would provide some sort of assistance to them. But I wouldn't Think that there is a CCP committee overseeing Huawei on a daily basis, telling them, you know, this is something you should do in the, in Southeast Asia and this is something you should work on in Africa. And if that were the case, Huawei wouldn't be where it is today day. Which is also why I sincerely believe the U.S. persecution of Huawei and other properly private Chinese companies is a strategic mistake. Because these companies were on their way to making China more dynamic, more private, having more private elements in the Chinese society to have more international exposure, to allow people to have a career path, a meaningful one, a financially rewarding, outside the apparatus. These companies are helping China to become more open, more aligned with international standards. So these are positive forces from a market perspective that would help align China with the globalization process, with the so called rule based international order. And this is also the reasons, for example, the US has imposed many export controls and has, for example, sanctioned Russia and other, you know, states and companies that are deemed hostile to US national interests. And many of the Chinese private companies are, well, silently just abide by all these sanctions because they want to globalize, they want to have markets and partners and suppliers across the world. But I guess this is the year 2025. There is no way to turn around this phenomenon. I guess what?

[Tracy Alloway]

Well, on this note, this actually leads into a question I wanted to ask, and I think this will be the last question from me. But one of my pet theories right now is that the US is starting to look a lot more like China and China is starting to look a lot more like the us. So just recently, for instance, you've seen Chinese policymakers try to boost consumer spending, which is a page out of the US playbook. After financial crises, they've been enhancing their social safety net, which again kind of looks American, although you can debate how strong the American social net is. America, meanwhile, has been making more strategic investments in certain industries. Industrial policy has become a thing again. China is liberalizing part of its market. The US says it's going to keep Chinese investors out of its market. Like it feels like they're taking on each other's characteristics to some degree. I guess my question is, would you agree with that? And I have to say Michael Pettis did not agree with me, but a couple others, Victor Schwetz over at Macquarie, agreed with me. And then right after I wrote my piece about this, there was a big foreign policy article basically saying the same thing. So I would love to get your opinion.

[Zhishan Wang]

Well, I think I've heard the term called beating China by becoming China. And I do think that the United States has its legitimate interests in strengthening its supply supply chains, in safeguarding the resilience of its industries. Like I totally understand that the US doesn't want to rely 100% on PPEs during COVID It wants to ensure a certain level of self reliance when it comes to manufacturing capacity, maybe onshore or maybe friendly shoring like in its allies, you know, transatlantic allies. I get that. And I think, I think when it comes to China, what you were mentioning, and I guess maybe Michael Pettis doesn't fully agree, is that many people believe the process in China of showing up the consumer spending and strengthening the social safety net that should be accelerated, that should go much faster than it is happening today. Because the Chinese government, they have officially according to their policy papers recognizes that in the Chinese minds it's not about basically learning from American way of establishing a social safety net, maybe from the Europeans, I guess, but because it is fundamentally helpful and beneficial for the Chinese society for the Chinese people to have a relatively robust health care coverage insurance so that they could spend money on more iPhones and other consumer electronics. This is fundamentally good, something good. It's not about learning from the, from the rest of the world. But on the phenomenon just mentioned that there is this some sort of convergence. I do hope they converge on being more open, on being more humane, on being more humanitarian, being more, you know, hospitable to people, to persons. And if I may have some sort of last word on this, I'm really saddened and sometimes I'm angry that it's the students, they are at their early 20s or maybe like 19 years ago. They are being made pawns in this game. Come on, they are innocent. This strategic rivalry, yes, take all your measures against the military industrial complex and even maybe Huawei's, but leave the people alone from this and let's, you know, people to people experience and student experience happen. And this will try to safeguard the long term stability of the two countries because I mean as competitive, as hawkish as the US Trump administration hopes to be on entry China, although I haven't read the latest readout of the phone call, but nobody wants the two countries to go to war and to just prevent something catastrophic against that. We need people to people, you know, dialogues. And the Chinese leaders have been receiving US guests, for example, the vice president of China just, I think yesterday or today received the US non governmental players in China. The Chinese leaders met, for example, John L. Thornton, the former former CEO of Goldman Sachs. They met Graham Ellison, the founding dean of the Harvard Kennedy School. So you have many news in China from Chinese leaders receiving non governmental guests from the US officially reported in China legitimizing the non governmental visits from the US to China. But the other way around, I don't see any news even under Biden administration that the US government openly receives non governmental visitors. Scholars, entrepreneurs and the Chinese. For example, Xi Jinping met with dozens of US companies and Western and European companies CEOs. So in that vein, the Chinese legitimizing the Western interactions coming into China. But unfortunately I'm not seeing any of that here. Here what we have is like delegitimizing any Chinese government and the non governmental people coming here. And I think I've heard that the US government is also meeting with non governmental Chinese actors, school scholars while working in state run universities and think tanks. But they are not saying anything about that. And that's not something very good I think.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Zhishun Wang, thank you so much for coming on odd lots. Thank you for doing your exit interview with us. This is really fascinating. Really glad we got to chat before you left town and I hope we continue reading your work. I hope you're going to keep doing technologies.

[Zhishan Wang]

Yes, definitely.

[Joe Weisenthal]

That's fantastic because I, I think for a lot of us here it's a very useful resource. Those of us who don't speak Chinese or those of us who don't know who the names that we should actually be paying attention to. So really appreciate it and safe travels home.

[Zhishan Wang]

Thank you. I'm truly grateful for the opportunity. Thank you to Tracy and John and I hope maybe not just for me, but for Chinese students it's adios, not goodbye.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Real quickly, has there been a change in perception, the desire to ability of coming here?

[Zhishan Wang]

If the Chinese students don't face the restrictions they, they certainly still want to come here.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Thank you so much.

[Zhishan Wang]

Thank you. My pleasure.

[Joe Weisenthal]

First of all, really enjoyed that conversation. It is hard for me, you know, this sort of really aggressive attempt to no longer have American universities be a sort of destination for many of the world's most talented individuals. It's hard for me to imagine that not being sort of like a pretty big hit to both the US economy and it's just sort of like standing in the world.

[Tracy Alloway]

Yeah. So Zhishan's point about well, you know, Chinese students who come to America for their education, they largely go back to China with fond memories of America. I think the idea that America wouldn't value that is really indicative of how much less we seem to be Valuing soft power nowadays, it seems like that kind of diplomacy just isn't, isn't as popular as it once was. And so you're seeing people like the Trump administration say, like, well, why should we be doing this? We don't get anything out of it. But then people like Zishen will say, well, you actually do get something out of it. You get better relations and you get that sort of cultural understanding and that, that soft diplomacy.

[Joe Weisenthal]

I do wonder though, the degree to which the American public has been sold on the benefits of so called soft power. Right? So like a lot of people are saying, oh, American influence abroad, American ideals, what America stands for, for freedom in almost in so many other countries or maybe did up until recently. I know global perceptions have changed, et cetera. But then I think, you know, maybe there is another argument. It's like, oh, that's great that all these countries see us as a beacon of freedom or whatever. What do I get out of that? How does that benefit me? And I think when you look at some of the political turns, perhaps the case hasn't been made to the US public in a very compelling way from the people who believe in sort of liberal internationalism, that the average citizen in the US actually should care at all about how the rest of the world views us.

[Tracy Alloway]

Look, everyone needs to travel more if they can. That's what I say. You need to go to a place that loves America and then you need to go, I don't know, to the Middle east or something and talk to someone that hates America and see what the difference is. There's a big difference.

[Joe Weisenthal]

This is a really good perspective. And take.

[Tracy Alloway]

Okay, shall we leave it there?

[Joe Weisenthal]

Let's leave it there.

[Tracy Alloway]

This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me. Raceyallaway.

[Joe Weisenthal]

And I'm Jill Wiesenthal. You can follow me at thestalwart. Follow our guest Zishan Wong. He's Ishaan Wong here. And check out his Pecknology substack. I do hope he sustains it upon return to China. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez, Armanarmen Dashiell Bennett at dashbot and Cale Brooks. Kill Kyle Brooks. For more Odd Lots content, go to bloomberg.com oddlots we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes and you can chat about all of these topics 24. 7 in our Discord Discord GG oddlots.

[Tracy Alloway]

And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it when we conduct exit interviews with Chinese students studying at Princeton, then please leave us a positive review at your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes. Episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg Channel on Apple Podcast and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening.

[Unknown]

I'm Shonali Basak and I have a new show. It's called Bullish and it's about the future of Wall Street. Join me and Ken Griffin, Boaz Weinstein, Melody Hobson, Jane Fraser and others as I explore Wall street south, the rise of influencers. Oh, and I learned how to count cards.

[Joe Weisenthal]

Another black die.

[Tracy Alloway]

Oh my God.

[Shonali Basak]

This is amazing TV.

[Unknown]

Watch Bullish Tuesdays on bloomberg.com or tune in live at 6:00pm Eastern on Bloomberg TV and 8:00pm eastern on Bloomberg Originals.

[Zhishan Wang]

This is an iHeart podcast.