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- [00:00]
Emily Gracie
In June of 1971, viewers tuning in to WGRZ in Buffalo, New York were stunned to see an unfamiliar face delivering the evening weather report. Frank Benny, the station's regular weather anchor, had made headlines that day not for its forecast, but for walking into the Homestead Savings and Loan wearing a stocking over his head and attempting to rob the bank with a toy gun after grabbing $500. His getaway was remarkably brief. The well known weatherman was quickly recognized and promptly leaving the evening forecast slot suddenly vacant. Into this extraordinary circumstance stepped June Bacon Versey, the station's 42 year old science reporter. Armed with her meteorology degree and sheer determination, she delivered that evening's forecast with such expertise and confidence that the viewers might never have realized they were witnessing a pivotal moment in American history. The first on air weather report presented by a degreed female meteorologist. She's just one of many remarkable women who have persisted in this male dominated field.
- [01:09]
Jen Carfagno
I remember those words because it stuck with me. It's like, okay, that's important in life to just have confidence and do things that are hard.
- [01:16]
Emily Gracie
Today we're going off the radar to honor the female weather trailblazers of the past by learning from two current industry leaders. Well hear their advice for advancement.
- [01:26]
Tanya Fransen
The answer is always no if you don't even ask. So ask and I'm going to tell you 95% of the time when I've asked, the answer's yes.
- [01:35]
Emily Gracie
The challenges they've overcome and their passion for the fascinating world of weather.
- [01:41]
Jen Carfagno
I just really love what I do for a living. I love talking about the weather. I can't believe I get paid to do this as a job and that's a. I feel like that's an amazing place to be and so many people can't say that.
- [01:52]
Emily Gracie
I'm meteorologist Emily Gracey and you're listening to off the Radar, a production. Welcome to the direction of the National Weather Desk. On the show, we dig deep into topics about weather, climate, the ocean, space, and much more. Our goal is to help you better understand the weather and to love it as much as we do. Weight loss.
- [02:11]
Tanya Fransen
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- [02:22]
Jen Carfagno
It'S not going to automatically make my weight.
- [02:24]
Tanya Fransen
Yo, yo back $149 GLP1s. Now that's Noom smart. Get started@noom.com Real Noom user compensated to provide their story. Individual results may vary. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy or quality.
- [02:41]
Emily Gracie
Welcome to off the Radar where we explore the fascinating world of weather and the people who help us understand it. I'm your host Emily Gracie and today's episode celebrates Women's History Month by honoring the remarkable women who have transformed Metro June Bacon Bersey's unexpected debut opened doors that had been long closed to women, particularly women of color. But her story is just one chapter in the rich history of women in weather science. From Eunice Foote, who first documented the greenhouse effect in 1856, to Joanne Simpson, the first woman to earn a PhD in meteorology, women have been making crucial contributions to our understanding of the atmosphere for generations, many times without the recognition they deserve. Today I'm thrilled to welcome two distinguished guests who have each dedicated decades to advancing the field. Jen Carfagno, A familiar face and name whose expertise and communication skills have made her a trusted television presence on the weather Channel. For 27 years, Jen has covered all types of extreme weather in the field. Blizzards, hurricanes, ice storms. Most days you can find her as the co host of America's Morning Headquarters on the Weather Channel guiding viewers through everything from simple science concepts to life threatening weather their warnings. I've known Jen for more than 20 years and she's been an amazingly positive influence in my own career. Also joining the discussion is Tanya Fransen, the meteorologist in charge at the National Weather Service office in Portland, Oregon. Tanya has an extensive career in emergency management and disaster response. She specializes in wildfire management, weather hazards, climate research projects. She is particularly known for building relationships with communities and mentoring early career scientists. Having established two formal mentoring programs. Tanya has more awards and recognitions than I can possibly mention and her reputation in the field is of the highest regard. You won't meet another meteorologist at an AMS meeting that doesn't adore her. Sit back and relax and enjoy this candid conversation with Jen and Tanya about their journeys in a traditionally male dominated field. Jen Carfagno and Tanya Fransen, thank you so much for coming on off the Radar today to talk about women and meteorology and I want to start with Jen and get a little background. Even though I know you, we go way back. We've known each other for a long time on your getting into this field of weather, how you got started and wound up where you are today at the Weather Channel.
- [05:20]
Jen Carfagno
So many meteorologists have the story Where a big storm hit their house, you know, and that made them curious about the weather. And it wasn't just one, it was. It was a lot. I mean, I grew up in southeastern Pennsylvania. We had big snowstorms, blizzard of 83. I remember the snow piled up. Hurricane Gloria. I was in the fourth grade, we got the day off of school and I was like, what is making this rain different than any other rainy day? I remember looking up, we, a friend and I just like lifted up our garage door a little bit because they weren't auto automated back then, so you had to like lift them. And we just peered underneath and we're like, wow, this is really cool. This is hurricane rain. It really was no different to us hail storms. There was a tornado in Limerick, Pennsylvania, not far from my house. It was all these things I suggest. I was always the person that talked about the weather and that everyone looked to me for the weather forecast. But it was really a high school teacher, a calculus teacher who had, and I love math and he had a bulletin board with a crossword puzzle of curious and using math. And one of them was meteorology. And it just kind of all started to click together. Another high school teacher had his pilot's license. I wanted to be a pilot, thought the clouds would be awesome. And so I'm reading through this book and I was like, wow, there's a lot of weather in here. So there wasn't one thing. It was many things that just kind of came together to make me want to pursue it. I had no idea it would lead me to where I am today though.
- [06:41]
Emily Gracie
So when you picked meteorology as a major, did you think, I want to do television meteorology? Did you think, like me, you're going to chase tornadoes? Or what was your thought process at that point?
- [06:51]
Jen Carfagno
It's crazy. In high school I just thought, I'm just going to go to college, get a degree in meteorology. I didn't think anything about what kind of job I would get, really. Like, I didn't even have any kind of inkling of like, well, I gotta work after I do all this.
- [07:04]
Emily Gracie
And then how did you wind up at the Weather Channel? Because you've been there from pretty much day one, right?
- [07:09]
Jen Carfagno
From. From day one, there was an internship available at the Weather Channel and I had also applied for some other TV job internships. The Weather Channel one wasn't a TV internship per se. It was more doing data graphics and forecasting. And I had actually gotten one of the. I had secured one of the internships in Philly but then the Weather Channel one came out and I was like, oh, I have to throw my hat in my hat, you know, my name in the hat. And I ended up getting it. And I think it was really because of some great references that I got from Penn State. And that was because I had one in particular I'd given a tour. The head of the department, but also the president of the college. And I saw the review or the reference, and it was just like she handled this with aplo. I. I remember those words because it stuck with me. It's like, okay, that's important in life to just have confidence and, you know, and do things that are hard. Because it was very hard for me, you know, to lead that kind of group in a tour. And so ever since then, I kind of took that with me. But anyway, I interned at the Weather Channel, and then after I graduated from Penn State, there was a job available and it all just kind of fell into place. Not on camera, though. It took me about five years to get on camera at the Weather Channel. It wasn't even necessarily something I wanted to do at first.
- [08:23]
Emily Gracie
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even know what the apprenticeship program was, but of that gateway to being on camera at the time.
- [08:30]
Jen Carfagno
Right.
- [08:31]
Emily Gracie
Didn't you go through that program?
- [08:32]
Jen Carfagno
I did. I worked behind the scenes and I started doing data and graphics. And this was back when we were manually putting H's and L's on weather maps, and we had to resend every single warning out to make sure that the cable head ends that served counties other than the one they were located in got them. I mean, all these little things that you think, you know, would always be automated, but they weren't back then. It was actually Jim Cantore and Dave Schwartz who suggested I try out for this apprenticeship program. And I just didn't really think I had it in me to be on camera. I was definitely a behind the scenes kind of person. I wanted to forecast more, all of that, but they convinced me and it took five years. And I can't believe they hired me into the program after my first tape. It was not good, very flat. I didn't wear eye makeup, just, you know, all the things like now I know better. But. But yeah, it. Persistence paid off. I was about to end my apprenticeship because I was going back to college to get my mba, because at the time I was working in our science and strategy department at the Weather Channel because this apprenticeship was on top of my regular job. So I'd work, you know, five days a week no matter what they were and then do the apprenticeship. And the science and strategy team that I was on was, you know, at the beginning of all the Internet businesses, weather.com had just been created. We were trying to figure out how to get warnings to sell phones and pager. Well, pagers first and then cell phones and you know, figuring out was there a way to make money and all of this kind of thing. And so that interested me. And so I was going, I was going to go get my mba. I started in a program and it was an executive program and I just couldn't handle everything, the MBA and the apprenticeship and my job. So I dropped the apprenticeship and then they offered a full time on air job and that's kind of how that, that's how that came to be.
- [10:21]
Emily Gracie
And you've been there how long now?
- [10:23]
Jen Carfagno
I've been at the Weather Channel for Almost it'll be 27 years in June.
- [10:27]
Emily Gracie
That's wild. Okay, Tanya, I met you a couple of years ago when another amazing woman walked up and said you two need to know each other. And that was Bernadette Woods Plackey, who we all know and adore. Who Jen I think you went to college with, right? Yeah.
- [10:42]
Tanya Fransen
Yeah. Yes.
- [10:43]
Jen Carfagno
Burn and I went to school at Penn State together.
- [10:45]
Emily Gracie
So yeah, Tanya, I get to meet you. And then over the past two years I've slowly started seeing how you are in everything you are so involved in ams. AMS fellow, you have this huge background in not only weather but you are an expert now in volcanoes. I'm seeing you posting about volcanoes and you're also in this management role which is really intriguing to me and I love hearing about this because I don't often hear about women as the meteorologists in charge of a national weather service. Usually when I interview at MIC it is a man. So I really curious about your path to where you got to today in Portland.
- [11:24]
Tanya Fransen
I was talking with a few people about this not too long ago at a volcano kind of exercise that we were doing and I got to thinking about it. I always used to say that the Lyman Colorado tornado back in 1990 triggered my real interest in meteorology. I always loved physical sciences but I think it goes back to being in elementary school and the weekly readers that we used to get. When I walked in the classroom and I saw that on my teacher's desk, I knew it was going to be a good day and I love that little weekly Reader. I read voraciously as a child and I remember the 1980 Mount St. Helens volcano eruption I was a kid in Germany. My aunt and uncle actually sent me some ash from that. They were living in Montana at the time. And I kept that weekly reader for ages, wanting to know more about volcanoes and understanding more. And I think, you know, over time your interest shift and mount and you'd get involved with different things. But I. I can go all the way back to like second, third grade and know that I loved physical sciences. It was always something that I enjoyed. I went to high school in Colorado and I was on a volunteer fire department and would go and do medical calls mostly, but occasionally we would get some wildfires in there and, you know, going out on my first wildfire and realizing I could probably do a lot better by helping on the weather forecasting side than I could trudging up the side of a Mountain at 8,000ft. And, you know, I was lucky. In college I had an amazing professor and every semester he kind of handpicked one of us to go and work with the weather service office in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And I was able to work the summer of, right before my senior year, in the fall of my senior year, and get credits to do that. The Cheyenne Weather Service office. The supervisor there was just amazing at mentoring and coaching us into our careers, helping us launch those careers. You know, the day I graduated from University of Northern Colorado, I had a job and life took me around. I spent a long time in the High Plains and boy, I missed the severe weather and the convection. I do not miss 25, 30 below 01 bit. I've been here in the Northwest for about two and a half going on three years. And it's a whole new game up here. You know, I get to throw in tsunamis and earthquakes and volcanoes and things that we weren't really doing in the High Plains at all. So, you know, it's been a great career. I'm 31 years in. I hope I can continue for a while longer still. I'm barely over 50, so I started when I was 20 in the weather service. Couldn't even legally drink yet, but it's been amazing. I just love science and I love what we do for the people. And I was the warning coordination meteorologist for 14 years before becoming a supervisor.
- [14:24]
Emily Gracie
Tell me. I think not everybody understands the makeup of a National Weather Service office and the structure. So you are overseeing a huge group of people, right?
- [14:33]
Tanya Fransen
Yeah, when we're fully. I have 27 people here. I have six in our electronic shop, an IT, a hydrologist, an administrative assistant, and then about 15, 16 meteorologists that are working rotating shifts. I have two managers, a science officer and the warning coordination meteorologist. And myself. I'm actually on a shift today. Did some briefings this morning. When I'm done with this call, I get to go brief the Oregon State Emergency Management Communication Center, ASTO and flooding that we've had this weekend. So I get to do it all.
- [15:12]
Emily Gracie
Okay, so one thing I'm seeing common with both of you is you both started this career at a very young age. Like you were young women many years ago getting into this field. I'm curious what that was like. Did you feel like a fish out of water being a young woman in a very male dominated field? Jed, let's start with you.
- [15:31]
Jen Carfagno
I, I was one of the few women there weren't a lot in my graduating class. I think we ended up with four or five, maybe out of 40. But I never felt like a fish out of water. I don't know, no one ever treated me any different. I will say that to the credit of my class and my professors and everyone that I was involved with at Penn State, I never felt different, if you will. And I know that's lucky because in many cases you don't have that. If anything, I was more encouraged because I guess I was the unique one.
- [16:01]
Tanya Fransen
I felt that way in college as well. I felt like the world was my oyster. My dad was a chief master sergeant in the Air Force and his commanding officers were females. And I always saw that level of respect towards women and I never expected any obstacles. But I will say, the moment I joined in my agency, see that there were some things that I didn't really think about at the time that later in life I recognized were biases that people had, you know, somebody. I just graduated, I was working temporarily in this little office in Nebraska that was getting ready to close down and there was another employee temporarily there and they asked me, well, what are you going to do when you get married and have kids? So the assumption was one, that I was getting married and two, that I was going to have kids. Which, you know, that was my plan. But I didn't understand the question, like, what do you mean, what am I going to do when I get married and have kids? What's the issue here? And well, you can't work. Well, why can't I work? Like it didn't even compute with me that this person was trying to tell me that I should be a stay at home mom once I had children. And that was never a boundary or an obstacle that had been set in my life by My family, by the people around me, by anything. So took a while to recognize some of those biases because truly I thought the world was my oyster. And I'll say in my 30 years, oh, yeah, I've encountered it. I've certainly encountered it, but I'm still here. And some of those people are not.
- [17:31]
Jen Carfagno
I wanted to add, I would agree that I definitely saw those same features and personalities out there, but I think you and I maybe have the same experience is that my family was so supportive of me and signs that my friends were, and my direction direct, my direct contacts, whether it was a teacher or whether it was someone I was studying with, were all very supportive. So that just built up, I think, my confidence and allow me to see the rest of it through that lens, which now, looking back, I feel really lucky that I had that support system. So I think, you know, if I. If a student at any age, but certainly, you know, getting from middle school into high school, which is like the most critical time, if they. You don't have that support, then I could see how easily you could. Your perspective could be persuaded to not believe that you could do it. I mean, it's. We're all impressionable, you know, and I think that's like a teenager, early college, just that age is so impressionable, and it's so important to be building up the confidence of a woman to do whatever she wants to do, including science.
- [18:37]
Emily Gracie
You guys are making me think about my own experience in a whole different light now.
- [18:41]
Jen Carfagno
Yeah. Emily, can we ask you back about yours?
- [18:43]
Tanya Fransen
About yours? No.
- [18:45]
Emily Gracie
Your college experience, I feel like, was better than mine. I. I don't.
- [18:48]
Jen Carfagno
I.
- [18:48]
Emily Gracie
When I got to college, I didn't. I was like, jen, I didn't really have a plan. I just liked weather. But I immediately was thrown into this. This group, and I was told over and over again, you're. You're a woman and you're blonde, so you're doing tv, right? Like, that was the assumption. Even though that had never even really crossed my mind. It wasn't actually the plan. So now, you know, thinking back, I'm.
- [19:08]
Jen Carfagno
Like, well, why did I.
- [19:09]
Emily Gracie
Why wind up in tv? Was it because everybody else told me I should or because I actually wanted to? But yeah, it's. It's interesting. I mean, we've all had this experience that's led us to where we are today, though. So nothing's. Nothing's bad, I guess.
- [19:21]
Jen Carfagno
Well, no, I think it's all built your experience to, you know, put you in the place that you are today, to be Able to help others. I mean, you, you've been, you've experienced so many different things, Emily, in your career. I feel you've been. Tell me all the. Like, I know this is your podcast. You're questioning us, but we're gonna for a living too.
- [19:37]
Tanya Fransen
So.
- [19:38]
Emily Gracie
Jeff's also a podcast host, in case you didn't notice. Tar. Right.
- [19:42]
Jen Carfagno
So the different roles that you have held, go through them.
- [19:46]
Emily Gracie
Well, the Weather Channel, I made graphics. I did ad sales at the Weather Channel for a hot second. I did. I worked for the AMS education program doing their college level resources and then I traveled for them a little bit for their like NSTA fairs, doing their booths. And then I wound up in TV up in Baltimore. So I got a part time job up in Baltimore working in TV and that kind of spiraled into full time TV for like 15 years. And now this podcasting and content creation for the national weather desk. And I did teach for a little bit in there too. I taught at community college in Baltimore, which was fun. But I think what I do now is like my favorite of all of the things.
- [20:31]
Tanya Fransen
Yeah, it's multifaceted. So you're not just just doing TV meteorology, you've done education, you've done the outreach side of it. You're doing what my young people are doing. And with the podcasting and pulling it all together and digital content creation, I would love to try, but I barely can get my Instagram stories to load the way I want them to.
- [20:53]
Emily Gracie
And I feel the same way, like podcasting is this special zone where I can be creative, but it's not like this social media, which I am not great at.
- [21:03]
Jen Carfagno
Okay, I want to ask you both.
- [21:05]
Emily Gracie
About any roadblocks you've had along the way being a woman. And I. And I'm getting the feeling I. Jen, I think I know this about you. Strong female in your life, your mother.
- [21:15]
Jen Carfagno
Both of my parents, you know, I admired. And my mom actually went back to college. She never finished college before she had me, and she went back to college when I was in school to get her degree in education. She wanted to be a French teacher and I just admired that. She chased after that dream long after, you know, most would have been like, oh, well, you know, it was a dream, but I never went after it. But she did. And then she went on to teach French for many years before she retired. But I admired just her goal setting and going after it. And that's always been a part of my life for my parents and, and my sister, I think. So if we challenged each other to, to go after hard things. And it's sort of a theme I keep coming up with when I think back to what led me each step to be successful. It was always trying things that were just a little harder than I thought I could do. Why not? Why not try it? And you know, college, my roommate Amy and another, another friend Jean, we always study together and we, we would just, we would try hard things, you know, with the classes. Meteorology is, is very difficult. It's a lot of physics and calculus put together at like a high level. And, and while, you know, all of us were like wondering if we could we really do it, we never really said that out loud. That's been a part of my life. And at the Weather Channel, many guys and, and girls supported me from an on camera perspective. Terry Smith, she was on camera at the Weather Channel years ago and now she works in our radio department. But she was a super her for many years. And when I was going through the apprenticeship, she would do tape reviews with me and always very positive, always, you know, helping me along the way to, to guide my progress, but never really saying like, this is what you need to, you need to be on air, you need to do this. Just sort of guiding me in my professional life, no matter whatever it was that I was going to end up with, whether, you know what I continued down the forecasting path, the science and strategy path or the on camera path. And I think those are the kind of people in my life that really took, kept helping me get to the next level.
- [23:24]
Emily Gracie
Interesting. Yeah, I remember, God, I was so young when I worked there. But I would sometimes like slip tapes to you guys, you know, like you or Stephanie or Christina. I remember Stephanie coming and sitting in my little cubicle one day and watching my tape. And like she said something to me that stuck with me. It was something along the lines of like, just be yourself. And I, that it had never occurred to me before to like be myself or be comfortable in my own skin. But it sounds like you have had that or at least you faked it through the whole way because that confidence is what it sounds like. Got you to where you are.
- [23:59]
Jen Carfagno
Oh my gosh. I didn't have it. It was the faking it.
- [24:01]
Emily Gracie
Yes.
- [24:02]
Jen Carfagno
Okay, that's good. I remember Patrick Scott. He was the president of the Weather Channel. I first started my apprenticeship and he said, you will get lots of training, lots of critique. He's like, never lose your charm. And that was great advice. You know, I mean, I, at the time, I didn't really think I had much charm. I really never thought I would make it on camera because I was very quiet and just kind of geeky about the weather. Always too concerned about being correct, which, you know, many meteorologists are. But that was good advice. And I do need to give Stephanie Abrams a huge shout out because she was a huge influence for me and for so many. And whether I think she interacts directly with someone or they watch her, they learn from her, and she's so giving with advice and, and support, you know, and she'll tell you like it is and which is the most important thing. We need people like that in our lives who will tell us straight the way. The way it is.
- [24:58]
Emily Gracie
Yes. Tanya, have you ever experienced a situation where you thought, like, this wasn't the field for me or someone really put up a roadblock for you?
- [25:08]
Tanya Fransen
You know, I did, and it was actually another female, and I was ready to leave the weather service. I just didn't, you know, I was so excited to go and work with another female because I hadn't really had that opportunity. We had our administrative assistants who are amazing, and we had a met tech that, you know, was a good 60 years older than me. Maybe at the time, she was long past retirement, but I didn't have anybody I could relate to. So I was very excited about that opportunity. And I don't know, they were slightly older generation than me, but that, that never clicked for, for the two of us to work together. And, you know, I could have stayed there. I had some amazing guys that I worked with that really saw it and understood and did their best to, to mitigate things, but it was moving on and getting a promotion into the same role they were in. That was like, okay, I. I can do this. I. It moved me into management as I was barely 26 years old when I got my management position. It was a lot of learning. But I've had people tell me this over my career, and I agree, if it doesn't scare you, you probably shouldn't do it. If it's going to scare you, you're going to learn from it and you're going to grow the most from it. And so maybe now, as I'm older, I'm a little more scared than I used to be. But when I was young, I was like, what? You know, what's it matter? I'm going to try this. If I fail, what's the worst that can happen? And, you know, the one thing I tell our staff here all the time, and I tell our partners, this I tell young AMS students who come talk to me, the answer is always no if you don't even ask. So ask and I'm going to tell you 95% of the time when I've asked, the answer is yes. And the no's are usually with good reason or not right now, but maybe in a few weeks, in a few months. Let's come back to this.
- [27:06]
Emily Gracie
I love to know if the atmosphere is the same in government work as it is in tv. In the way that sometimes I feel like women are pitted against other women because there are so few. And like, say in a TV situation 10 years ago at a TV station you might have three, a three person weather team and the structure often looks like older white man, chief, younger man, morning meteorologist, woman, weekend meteorologist. That seemed to be like kind of the formula and that's changed a lot in recent years. But I used to look at job openings and say, they already have a woman. I have no chance. It was like there was just this one spot for one woman on the team. Has there ever been that kind of same feel when it comes to the National Weather Service where women are pitted against each other or made to feel competitive against each other because there seem to be less roles for them?
- [28:03]
Tanya Fransen
Well, I've seen it. I've seen it, I've fought it. I didn't recognize it at the time, maybe afterwards. And it's interesting when you have the discussion with the other female afterwards, what they were hearing versus what you were hearing and, and who was creating chaos in that relationship. And I don't understand why. There's no need for it. We're all, we're all on the same team. We all have the same mission and the same goal. One of us isn't looking for bigger accolades than the other. So I have seen it, but I've seen it caused by men and I've seen it caused by women. I just think you just got to keep persevering and being a good person and knowing what your mission is and what that goal is and, and the truth shines. Just going to put that out there that, you know, people who are in the decision making positions can see what's happening down below. And it may not be immediately as the time is happening, but eventually that is seen. And I'm going to say I've had some amazing male role models as well that are just absolutely supportive of everybody. We're all deserving of equal effort from them. And that's what I've seen happen. It's competitive in the weather service too, you know, especially women sometimes have a harder time getting positions wherever they want to go because they might be rooted with the spouses position, they might be near a family, they have children. It's not necessarily as easy as some men can just, okay, here's where we're all going and we're going to do this. And so they're limited in their position. Sometimes if they can only be in the city they're at and there's no lead forecaster vacancy positions for them, they're kind of held at that general forecaster level. And if they can't get to the management position because the lead position's blocking them, I've seen it kind of the women coming at each other and trying to outdo each other and rather than helping each other and let's both rise, it's happened. I hope we're doing less of that. You know, I started a weather service women in science group. Oh my gosh, it's been 15, maybe coming on 20 years now. We ended up into a Facebook group and you know, we started traveling together, doing trips together. Now we're all in different Facebook message groups together, talking to each other. It's fun to see the one group I've been in, how many of us have risen into our roles, into supervisory roles to see the ones that are regional union positions in the weather service. And we celebrate each other. We're trying not to keep that competition out there, but and you know, I'm not saying that men don't feel that competition too, but I do think there's extra pressure on women, especially those that have families and really don't have the opportunity to just pick a location and apply and try and go.
- [31:01]
Emily Gracie
Yeah, I mean there are differences between men and women for sure. And I want to ask you both what you think in this field. The strength of women is not for everyone, but like general strengths that women may bring to the field. And I thought of this when I interviewed do you know Jen Walton from Girls who Chase? She described the difference that she sees when it comes to men and female chasers and just women capturing from a safer distance the beauty of say a situation. Whereas a man might drive straight into it and capture the chaos or the hail hitting the windshield. So she sees these differences in the storm chasing world with men and women. So I'd love to hear thoughts on kind of both in the forecasting world and in science, communication and TV world. What you think strengths are for women.
- [31:51]
Jen Carfagno
That's a really good question and a very Thought provoking question. You know, it goes to why you need representation, you know, in the workplace because everyone brings a different perspective. I think women bring a talent to manage multiple things at once because so often we have to do that at home. And that's, I mean that's helpful in a, on a meteorology shift considering all the different hats, you know, we might have to wear. But also just in TV because of, you know, how quickly you've got to work to get the product out. I'm a firm believer that you can't really multitask, but you can kind of switch task and switch between things very quickly. And I love Jen's, Jen Walton's comment about just seeing the beauty. And I think that's something else, you know, just as a, as a woman I bring, which is a lot of times stepping back and seeing the big picture of how the weather is impacting people versus just the weather itself. You know, there's plenty of guys that do that too though. It's, it's really hard to say one versus the other.
- [32:53]
Emily Gracie
You can't generalize an entire group, but there are certain things. Tanya, is there anything that comes to mind for you?
- [32:58]
Tanya Fransen
Yeah, empathy. And here's the thing, I'm not saying men don't have empathy, but when you see a colleague struggling, a woman can open their arms and give a hug. And it's not judged and it's not come at with speculation and gossip, right? Like, I don't, I can't tell you how many people I've hugged in my agency. You know, I remember there's just so many. There's so many. And everybody in the agency knows if they need a hug, they can come to me. And you know, guys, they can't do that, especially guys with thighs. When there's somebody struggling to give the other a hug, it's almost, it should be accepted, but it's not. There's caution and you know, I think men are very reluctant to give women hugs in this day and age when they need that. So I think the fact that we can be openly empathetic is, is a strength that we have in the workplace. We currently have four women, about five, five in my office right now. And every one of us I know has had one of the other people in this office because somebody's going through a hard time.
- [34:07]
Emily Gracie
I mean, we're in the trenches together. Like these hours and especially the weather service, you're putting out life saving warnings. Jen. People are watching you in the middle of the night to decide whether they take Shelter or not, like these are life saving, very high pressure situations you're in that are going to, you're going to need the support of your co workers.
- [34:25]
Jen Carfagno
I think that's a topic that doesn't get addressed enough, which is just the day to day real life stress that goes on from working in this business because you tend to internalize a lot of the weather that's happening, even though it's not happening to us, but we're forecasting it. I mean, at the Weather Channel, it's nationwide. So when tornadoes hit in Arkansas, even though I'm in Georgia, I still feel it and I feel for the people that were impacted. I wonder why some folks didn't get the warning and didn't seek shelter. I mean, they might not have watched the Weather Channel. There's nothing really I can do about that. But still I think that kind of thing and, and then, and this is not a positive, but I think women might actually internalize it more because we do that.
- [35:06]
Emily Gracie
Do you think women also seek help more for perhaps dealing with certain heavy issues like that?
- [35:13]
Jen Carfagno
Yeah, I think so.
- [35:15]
Tanya Fransen
Seeing it being more normalized across the board though it truly has been normalized over the last few years. And you know, we have bigger companies, corporations, government agencies, we have, you know, EAP programs, employee assistance programs, and the access to that care is more readily available and anonymous. I think it's certainly normalizing that it's okay to not be okay. I've said this for, you know, the moment I walked in the door here, I, you know, there was times I was not okay and I had to let people know that.
- [35:51]
Emily Gracie
Did you ever feel like you had in the past had to hide it in order to prove yourself as like a manager, as a female in a male dominated field? Or were you always true to yourself?
- [36:02]
Tanya Fransen
You know, when I went through a divorce, I hid, but that was because I was a wreck and I couldn't, couldn't deal with any of it at that time. But the person I called was a male manager and I said, I'm not doing well. And then I called my local managers and two males and you know, I'm, I'm the supervisor, they're my managers. And I'm like, I need you to step up right now because I just can't do this. And they did. And my manager was amazing with it. So, you know, it's all past life is good these days and I'm able to help others and I can come to it with much deeper empathy. Having gone through it myself then I probably did. I was empathetic before, but I now have actually physically been there and understand what people are going through.
- [36:50]
Jen Carfagno
I think a lot of what we. We think are issues to others are actually not. They're just. We internalize it so often. And I only recognize that now as I've gotten older and just looking back at past experiences, I think most of the times that I was worried that somebody judged me, they probably didn't even see at all what I was seeing or even care. It was all in I. It was internal.
- [37:15]
Emily Gracie
Kimmy, either of you think of any practices that are still happening today that might be subtly sexist, and we. We may not even really realize it. Things that perhaps as an industry, we're doing wrong that could be holding women back at all. I think about this a lot with TV and, like, makeup and hair and dressing, but I don't really know an answer.
- [37:36]
Tanya Fransen
So.
- [37:36]
Jen Carfagno
You know, I often say that it's not fair that women have to spend an hour more doing hair and makeup instead of preparing their graphics or working on their forecast before a show. But that is life. And I know that happens in more than just on air. It's any kind of presentation you give anywhere. There's this expectation that women will be done, but especially in tv. And is that one of the things that I internalize more than I. No, I think it's. I think it's actually recognized. And I've had more than one male colleague, not necessarily at the Weather Channel, but elsewhere, who have said, give it. You got to give it up for the women who spend some extra time every day more than we do, you know, getting ready. And that's just the reality, I think, of society.
- [38:23]
Tanya Fransen
Yeah. Internally, in our agency, I'm not seeing anywhere as much as I have in the past, but. But I can tell you that I really reduced my use of social media because of comments and seeing comments. And, you know, when you hear somebody, oh, she's a DEI hire, that just enrages me. Like, was I a de. I'm a female. Does that just automatically mean I'm a DEI hire? Here I am 31 years later, and I've done a lot. I've given this agency blood, sweat, and tears. And you can't tell me I didn't earn that role, that I didn't deserve that role, that I wasn't qualified for that role. Because all of it is true. I earned it. I deserved it. I worked for that role. And so when I see comments online that are just without thought, it enrages me. And again, I got this red hair thing going on, so it probably doesn't help, but. Okay.
- [39:23]
Emily Gracie
So you both have children, and I'm curious how you've raised them in this field. Have you pushed science on them?
- [39:30]
Jen Carfagno
My oldest is now about to go to college, actually, and pushing passion. But I have tried to encourage science because she has an aptitude for it and I see the value in it. And I've told her, pursue science in college. You can always do something else later. But it's really hard to actually come back to science. I mean, you sort of have this momentum now. You've taken calculus, you know how to do it, you know, 30 years later, and I'm helping her with her homework, and I barely remember how to do it because I don't do it every day. So I, I think now is a good time if, if a, if a young woman or man has an aptitude for science, to chase it, because you can always then pivot after that. But if she didn't have an aptitude for it, or if she didn't even like it, then I wouldn't push her that way because I just really love what I do for a living. I love talking about the weather. I can't believe I get paid to do this as a job. And that's a. I feel like that's an amazing place to be, and so many people can't say that. And so I want that for my kids as well.
- [40:32]
Tanya Fransen
I have two sons in their 20s and both are married, and both of them have taken careers that are near science. My oldest was a wildland firefighter out of high school, worked with the U.S. army Corps of Engineers in the summer, has a certificate in power plant technology, and it's going back to school now. He's decided that this is the time, you know, wasn't ready early on. But going back to school and majoring in physics and I'm like, wow, that's a big one, right? So I've been sending him my Physics Today magazines. My younger son was a police officer for a while, and it's decided that it was better to influence kids by being a teacher and a coach. So he is a seventh grade geography teacher. So, yeah, both of them embraced science. You know, it's always fun when he was in the law enforcement academy, sending me a text and going, hey, do you know this person? They're teaching my Skyhorn class right now. It's like, well, yeah, he held your brother when he was a baby. Have known him for a very long time. So they've always Been weather adjacent.
- [41:43]
Emily Gracie
I love how kids of meteorologists all, even if they're not following in that path, they know what to do in a warning. Like, they are ready. They get the storm shelter ready. They have all the terminology. They're like, well, when the thunder roars go indoors from a young age, I love it. Okay, last question I want all of us to answer, which is goals for the future of women in meteorology. And my goal would be a couple. And they very much pertain to tv, one of them being equal pay for women. I think we feel our worth when it comes to our salary, and I think there's some work to be done there. The other is this concept of girl and whether girl and the terminology that we put around female meteorologists on TV versus male meteorologists on TV and just dispelling kind of these. And I live in a small market, so perhaps this is my personal experience dispelling this idea that it has to be a man giving you a weather forecast for it to be trustworthy. So those are kind of some old things that I'd like to get rid of and move towards a future of that. That equal pay and equal respect for women in the field. Tanya, you're next.
- [42:55]
Tanya Fransen
You know, I would love for no woman to have imposter syndrome. I really didn't feel that until maybe actually later in my career when I was starting to be surrounded by the people who wrote my college textbooks. I'm like, when did I get here? Yeah, I. I wish we didn't have imposter syndrome. I don't understand why we don't have more confidence in what we do. And if I could just do anything for all of these young students who come through ams that I get to talk to, and you're worthy, you're doing it. You're in the classes. You are as equal as anybody else there in your program. And you all bring unique and diverse skills to what you do. Some are better here, some are better there. Help make each other better. We've all earned our place. My current supervisor in the weather service has said that, that if you've made the interview, you've earned your place. You're good enough to be considered. Sometimes you don't make it through the interview, but you were good enough to get to that level. And I want everybody to think that when they say that. I don't know how to fix that, but I try. Everybody that I've talked to that I bring in through the stores that I sit down with, I have 100% faith in them and I want them to know that and not feel that competition.
- [44:15]
Emily Gracie
I'm going to bring you with me as my hype woman everywhere I go from Netflix.
- [44:19]
Tanya Fransen
I'll give you my cell number. I'm in.
- [44:22]
Jen Carfagno
I was just thinking the same thing. I was like, I need to get a session with Tanya and just talk through everything. My goal would be to get to, to young women earlier, before they even get to college and making sure they feel brave enough to be curious about science. Because I think there's still this middle school, maybe not so much elementary school, but middle school, high school. Well, it's not, you're not in the cool club if you're in the science club. And I don't know how we, you know, get rid of that because that seemed like an age old kind of thing. But I would. And I do this with school talks. I always try to do as many school talks as I can and now mostly they're virtual as opposed to in person. But actually that's better. I can reach more, more kids and you know, just make sure everyone feels encouraged to pursue science if they're interested in it. I think a scientific mind is a curious mind and it, it can take you into any career. I mean, if you have a scientific and problem solving mind, you can do anything. You know, you can learn the other skills along the way. But that's kind of core basis. I think you have to start when you're young.
- [45:35]
Emily Gracie
I love it. I love the idea and it's changing that people aren't labeled as science or non science anymore. I see a lot of people who are like, yes, I like science, but I also play the guitar and I'm an artist and I like computer engineering. Like there seems to be this acceptance of liking a lot of different things. Whereas when I was little it was either your right brain or left brain and, and you had to pick one from an early age.
- [45:59]
Tanya Fransen
Interdisciplinary is huge. It's so amazing to watch the people coming through the AMS policy colloquium, all these grad students and they're like, oh, I'm interdisciplinary during this, this and this. And I'm like, where was that 30 years ago when I went to school? It was meteorology, maybe a minor in math because of all the classes we took.
- [46:20]
Emily Gracie
Right. Just out of convenience. Awesome. Well, ladies, this has been amazing. Is there anything else either one of you wants to share before we go now?
- [46:28]
Tanya Fransen
I appreciate being asked, I appreciate getting to meet Jen more formally here instead of just following her on social media. And Emily, thank you for what you do and bringing our weather, water, climate enterprise to the masses.
- [46:43]
Emily Gracie
Oh, and everybody has to check out Jen's podcast as well. Weather geeks, if you don't follow that one. Great. And I, I was looking back, we're covering a lot of the same topics, so I'm glad we're finally collaborating on something we do.
- [46:56]
Jen Carfagno
I mean, well, you know, there's the top, the top weather and the news topics of the month.
- [47:01]
Emily Gracie
Everything that's important is what we're covering.
- [47:03]
Tanya Fransen
It's been a few years, but I'm a proud geek of the week, by the way.
- [47:07]
Jen Carfagno
Oh, that's awesome.
- [47:08]
Emily Gracie
That's amazing.
- [47:09]
Jen Carfagno
We have stopped geek of the week for now, but we'll bring that back.
- [47:12]
Tanya Fransen
It should be brought back because that's that I literally have that in my resume. Geek of the week.
- [47:18]
Jen Carfagno
I used to enjoy writing up because before I was a host of the podcast, I was writing the producer notes for them. And I just love learning about people who were listening to the podcast. It's a great, this is a great community to be a part of. I'm very thankful that you know that I'm a part of this. I, I don't know this, but I can't imagine that there's any other professional sort of enterprise that, that comes together like we do as meteorologists. We're connected across the country, around the world. You meet another meteorologist from Media France and right away you've got, you can maybe the language barrier, but otherwise you're starting a conversation and talking because we have this connection and our degrees of.
- [47:55]
Tanya Fransen
Separation are not very deep.
- [47:57]
Emily Gracie
They are not. Nope, they sure aren't awesome. Well, Tanya, Jen, thanks so much for joining me today and for all that you're doing in your each individual professions.
- [48:07]
Jen Carfagno
Thank you, Emily.
- [48:10]
Emily Gracie
Off the Radar is a production of the National Weather Desk. Make sure you're following the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes published every Tuesday. If you're a girl or a woman you're hoping to get into the field of meteorology, please reach out to me. You can find me on social media. I'm Emily Gracie on all platforms. Thank you to Tanya Fransen and Jen Carfagno for joining me today. Thanks to the National Weather Desk and Sinclair Broadcast Group for their ongoing support of the podcast, as well as my associate producer, Brian Petras for his help with today's episode on Meteorology. Emily Gracie, make it a great day.