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- [00:01]
Emily Gracie
Every day, scientists at the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration are tracking hurricanes, mapping ocean currents, studying climate change and protecting marine ecosystems. Yet most Americans couldn't tell you what NOAA actually is. It's not that the research isn't happening. It's happening everywhere. In labs, on research vessels, in remote stations. The real struggle is translating that incredible work into a story the public can understand and care about. When scientists are trained to be precise and public affairs teams are trained to be cautious, who loses the public.
- [00:35]
Tracy Finara
The change that needs to happen is the scientists view on communication as seen as just as important as the science. Seen as just as important as the data collection is the communication of those data.
- [00:47]
Emily Gracie
Today we're going off the radar with two former NOAA employees to unpack a critical challenge. The complex dance between cutting edge scientific research and and public communication.
- [00:58]
Tom De La Berto
It's like even if they don't want to communicate, these folks, they love what they do. I mean, they love what they do.
- [01:04]
Emily Gracie
I'm meteorologist Emily Gracie and you're listening to off the Radar, a production of the National Weather Desk. On the show we dig deep into topics about weather, climate, the ocean, space and much more. Our goal is to help you better understand the weather and to love it as much as we do.
- [01:21]
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- [02:11]
Emily Gracie
Welcome to off the Radar. I'm your host, meteorologist Emily Gracey. You've probably heard a lot in the news lately about widespread layoffs at government agencies including noaa, the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. What you may not realize is how much NOAA employees actually do. Their work matters. It saves lives. But researchers often work behind the scenes, avoiding the spotlight. And as a result, the public may not fully understand what these life saving researchers do, which can make it hard for the public to care about important organizations like NOAA or recognize why their work is so valuable. Today I'm Talking to two people who know all too well how NOAA has a public relations problem. They know because they both worked for NOA up until several weeks ago. Tom De La Berto is not your typical science communicator. With a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in atmospheric science, he's a climate scientist who pivoted into public relations, even creating Noah's first animated series. But Tom was part of the massive layoffs this winter. A probationary employee, he was let go. And his departure has unexpectedly opened the door for this candid conversation about Noah's communication struggles. Also joining us today is Dr. Tracy Finara. Many may know her as Inspector Planet, a familiar face on national television networks and a powerhouse of science outreach. What many don't know is that she was also NOAA's coastal modeling portfolio manager for four years. She recently resigned from this position, and today she'll share exactly why. If you're a former or current NOAA employee or an expert in science communications and you have something to add to this conversation, please feel free to reach out to me. I'd love to keep this conversation going and let your silenced voices be heard. You can find me on social media. Go ahead and slide into my DMs on Instagram. Just search off the Radar podcast. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Just search Emily, Gracie, let me know what you think of today's episode. Here is my candid conversation with Tom and Tracy. Tracy, Tom, thank you so much for coming on the show today to talk about something really important right now, which is science communication, and specifically science communication within this big organization that covers so much science here in the United States, and that's noaa. And you know, part of what I think is frustrating is sometimes, at least in my world, you still have to say the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, you know, like when we're putting it on the news. So I think the goal here is for everybody to know what NOAA is and have it be a household name. So I'm so glad to have both of you on today because you're both former NOAA employees so we can get a little inside scoop on how things agency and then also best practices moving forward when it comes to science communication. So I want to introduce both of you and let you give a little introduction of yourself, too. Let's start with Dr. Tracy Fenara. You are recently departed from NOAA, but can you take me back and tell me what your background is and then also what your role was with Noah?
- [05:16]
Tracy Finara
Yeah. So I'M an environmental engineer and research scientist. I have a pretty multidisciplinary, but it communicate communication has always been a big part throughout my entire career so far. I ran a research lab, I was in academia. I was also the research lab was a non profit and then I went to government. I worked for both USGS and then for NOAA managing the coastal and ocean modeling portfolio. So everything from the bottom of the ocean all the way to storm surge. That includes harmful algae blooms and oil spills, search and rescue, things like that.
- [05:56]
Emily Gracie
Gotcha. That was your NOAA position. But then you have this whole other world that you work in. Explain Inspector Planet to all of us.
- [06:05]
Tracy Finara
Inspector Planet is really a combination of Captain Planet, Inspector Gadget. It's innovation and sustainability with entropy. We really can't have true sustainability without innovating in a changing world. And so my mission has been focused on getting people more involved with science. I've had a big even at MUG Marine Laboratory where I was before NOAA had a big focus on citizen science or community science, getting the public to actually contribute to scientific data so that they can understand the scientific process. I run a couple of kids camps focused on watershed hydrology, engineering design and building. I think it's really important that kids can build, especially young girls. And then I do a lot of TV shows and I'm an expert for the Weather Channel, Fox Weather and a number of other networks.
- [07:00]
Emily Gracie
Awesome. Yes, we've seen your face pop up in a lot of different places. In addition to being just great on social media, awesome person to follow for all sorts of science information. All right, and then Tom, I want to talk to you as well. Another recent departure from Noah, but you're very much on the climate side of things, correct?
- [07:17]
Tom De La Berto
Yeah, that's correct. I started NOAA as a contractor, as a forecaster, actually in the weather service at the Climate Prediction Center. And I slowly realized that while I found science, doing the science really, really rewarding, I liked talking about it more. So I slowly transitioned from the National Weather Service and I became the climate scientist@climate.gov. so I wrote a ton of their articles, I ran the social media and then I started working at NOAA's Office of Communications at their headquarters, helping with the broader strateg how NOAA communicates all the work that it does, especially as it relates to climate. And my one foot still in the science world was that I was one of the ENSO forecasters at NOAA and runner for the ENSO block. So whenever we said El Nino, La Nino is here, that's all my fault. At least partly my fault. And then, yeah, I do some other things that I somehow convince people at Noah to let me do as it relates to science communication. I somehow got Noah to let me make a cartoon series called Teek and Tom Explore Planet Earth. It's Noah's first ever animated series. I still don't know how and why, but, hey, I wasn't gonna ask questions. Yeah, it's for fourth to sixth graders, and it's kind of exploring how the oceans and the atmosphere work together to create this kind of crazy world that we live in.
- [08:30]
Emily Gracie
It's so interesting me to me, because both of you and myself all have science backgrounds, but then fell into this world of communication. Do you feel like most of the time it's the opposite, that science communicators kind of started with this, like, communications background? And then. Yeah. At least most of the PR people that I've worked with in the past, especially with Noah, have not been people with science backgrounds. They've been communicators. So is that. You think that's like, a new trend?
- [08:54]
Tom De La Berto
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a new trend, because I think you're right. I feel like a lot of the folks who I work with were science curious, but they were more on the communications public affairs side of things and who kind of came into NOAA and then got all nerdy with the rest of us scientists. And I feel like nowadays there is more of a trend of scientists kind of moving into the comms world, which I think is. It's a good thing. I. It helps one sometimes. It makes the scientists feel more comfortable in telling their stories if they know that you're a scientist for whatever reason. But it's good to have kind of folks going both directions, especially when you're talking about complicated things like the atmosphere and the ocean.
- [09:31]
Emily Gracie
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so this episode is kind of prompted by something that I saw tracy put on LinkedIn. So I kind of want to explain the background on that. And, Tracy, get your deeper thoughts on what you had written there, because you talked about departing from Noah in order to better communicate all of the amazing things that Noah does. And the thing that really stood out to me that struck a chord was when you mentioned how you want kids to go home with Noah shirts and be proud of, you know, like that. And I think about NASA and how kids are wearing NASA shirts everywhere. They're sold in Old Navy. So why isn't that Noah? Why. Why are we not walking around with Noah shirts? Why do we still have to say the national oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to explain to people what NOAA is.
- [10:16]
Tracy Finara
I mean, I'm sure that there are a number of different reasons for that. And I mean, there's actual data driven reasons. Right. We don't have a marketing budget that NASA does. We don't have the personnel that NASA does when it comes to outreach and communications. But I also think that a lot of the reason is just, I don't know how to say this, you know, how scientists are and how they view communication. And it was really tough in my position because it's like the scientists don't think you're a real scientist because you're on tv. And then the people on TV are like, oh, well, she's not a TV person, she's a scientist. And it's just this, this thing where you never fit in anywhere. But, but my, my experience especially, I know, and this isn't the same throughout. Like, there are so many different offices that were so supportive of communication. Other offices, people in other offices were supportive of my communication even. But, you know, like, we have a very, very important mission. It's a, you know, a lot of military personnel, you know, a lot of bureaucrats that have been there for, for decades and have never really communicated science or thought it was important. That was kind of the, the area that I was in. So it was really hard for me because even when I would communicate on the weekends or days off, you know, like, it would be like kind of held against me a little, which wasn't cool. And that's not the way that it is throughout noaa.
- [11:49]
Emily Gracie
Okay, so, Tom, you were on this whole other side of things too, because I have actually done interviews with you as you were a spokesperson for noaa. And I often interview people from NOAA all the time, actually, and from NASA. And sometimes I get frustrated with the scripted response. So I want to know from your side of things how scripted it actually is, what the media prep process is like. I want to know everything that goes.
- [12:15]
Tom De La Berto
On from that side really dependent on who is doing the in who's being interviewed. I don't script anything. I don't like coming across as scripted. So I just kind of like to, oh, I know the topic of what you're going to talk about and I just, you know, let my knowledge take over and see where it goes. But I am a weird scientist in that I never have stage fright about anything thing. But I do know there are scientists who are very nervous about it. And part of my thing I've done A lot of interviews. And the reason I started doing interviews on ENSO was because no one else really wanted to. You know, they got into the field because they just wanted to make the forecast and do the science, not necessarily talk to anybody. And I said I would do it because I felt like it was important enough to talk about. But I've kind of made it a mission of mine when I was at NOAA to get scientists to realize that it's not adversarial when you're talking to the media about what you're doing, but because they're so nervous, they tend to write things out. And sometimes, yes, you can. You can literally feel like you're reading every line that they're saying. Now, that's not that I. That's pretty much what they did themselves. It's not like anyone at NOAH wrote something down for them.
- [13:32]
Tracy Finara
But.
- [13:32]
Tom De La Berto
But you do tend to sometimes tend to see that. And the one thing I always tell folks who are doing scientists who are doing interviews is to recognize like you have all the power because they're asking you a question, so you can answer it however you'd want to necessarily answer it. So. And it's okay to sometimes say you don't know the answer to things, but there are kind of people who are kind of designated the, the, the people who do the interviews. And it's not really spread widely across Noah. So it's something I wish Noah encouraged more of and did some more training of.
- [14:03]
Emily Gracie
It's wild to me, too, that there are people who are perhaps not camera comfortable or media prepped and don't want to do that, who are being put in front of the camera. But then there's people like Tracy who were held back from being in front of the camera and talking about these things, because, Tracy, I feel like even, just, even if it was out of your field of expertise, you would still be a good communicator in something else.
- [14:29]
Tracy Finara
Yeah.
- [14:30]
Emily Gracie
If given a press release, you would be able to answer all the questions.
- [14:33]
Tracy Finara
Right. It's like they didn't want to. They didn't want to be on camera, but they also didn't want you to talk about their work. And it was the hardest thing because you want to help. And you know, when it comes down to where the, the, the administration is making cuts to employees, you know, that's where the public can help you. Even, even if you're trying to get more funding for, for a mission or for more data collection for more models, whatever it is, having the public have a voice for what you're doing and knowing how important it is is powerful. And why wouldn't someone want that? Why would he want that power? I understand that it like puts you in a, in a place where, where people can criticize what you're doing. You know, fisheries doesn't have it easy because they're regulatory. Right. They don't have it easy. But at the same time it's like we're doing all this modeling and. Yes, you know, for example, for the, for the modeling, it's, it's to meet a mission. Like it's ports, it's navigation, like super important stuff. But it's also all of these other things that people could use. Going to the beach every day, going outside their door every day and they just don't even know that it's there. They don't even know where to get the information. Like we have hurricane coming, we have great surge visualizations and they didn't know where to get that information. You know, to protect themselves and figure out if they need to put things up, evacuate, you know, it's, it's really important information and if we are not communicating these things, then we're, we're doing everybody a disservice.
- [16:10]
Emily Gracie
So what's the answer? How do you think the best way to get that information to the public is?
- [16:15]
Tracy Finara
I think that we just need to do, we need to put more effort into a communication. Like I really think that the things that, that Tom was doing with the, with the cartoon, that's great. But getting that in front of people, putting that on YouTube and actually promoting it, you know, or, or having their employees promote it, like actually saying, hey guys, can you promote this? You know what I mean? And, and it's not that everybody at an agency or every scientist is even on social media, but the ones that are, even if you're reaching just five people, just your immediate family, that can have a domino effect of communication and education. I think that the change that needs to happen is the scientists view on communication as seen as just as important as the science seen as just as important as the data collection is the communication of those data.
- [17:13]
Emily Gracie
Yeah, I mean it's proven itself with hurricane for housing. As good as it's gotten, as amazing and accurate as it is, it's no good if people aren't getting the information. And like Hurricane Helene, you've got communities, whole communities that did not get the information right. Tom, any thoughts on best practices for getting that information to the public?
- [17:32]
Tom De La Berto
Yeah, and one thing about going back to the NOAA aspect is that when I Started communicating at NOAA and becoming a spokes. I was a nobody at Noah. I was a contractor who's just in a little wing of Noah. And I just like doing communication work and just the way that things like happen to path. I got on this weird path to where I ended up. And one thing that in the background I'm always thinking if I did that, there are probably some excellent science communicators out there that just haven't gotten the opportunity within NOAA to shine because of the way we communicate or the way we funnel interviews to people. It only goes to this person who doesn't even like it to begin with, but he has to do it because he's of a certain rank. And there, that's how it goes. And that person who's really, really good never gets a chance to shine and never get the chance to show Noah that they're good and that they can promote things. And that really hinders our ability to be able to communicate because we're, you know, we have people with these skills. We're just not highlighting them or like nurturing them to basically show the interest in them to basically allow them to communicate better. I feel like that's also like one thing that can help us communicate better as well is not having robotic interviews or not having people who seem like it is no difference between you or having like AI read out words like there's no emotion behind them. I think it's important to have a wider range of people who are speaking about a topic but also basically be able to communicate this in a way that is understandable to people who are trying to make a decision and not come across necessarily as some sciency over sciencey sort of languagey word nerdy person. It's important to kind of come across as like, you know, especially when it comes to severe weather or things that could really impact people. You want to come across as a trustworthy person. And I feel like sometimes we think trustworthy means we have to like up up the science when a lot of times trustworthy just means authentic. It just means the person you're speaking to thinks that you' they can imagine you as the friend they got a drink with or something like that and they'll trust that person over you. Just using a three syllable word that means like ISO dropotherm, like doesn't mean anything to anybody. Right? So I feel like being able to connect with people especially when giving our watches and warnings and rip current forecasts, storm surge, all these things connecting at these with these people. An Authentic way, I think will have people remember what you say better than just kind of, you know, thinking it's a lecture from back in high school that you hated listening to the first time.
- [20:03]
Emily Gracie
You know what I found interesting? A couple of things I've noticed over the past month is people who work for Noah coming out of the woodwork. Maybe I didn't even know they worked for Noah. And all of a sudden on Facebook or in their communities are talking about how they do. Like, it's suddenly getting this promotion. Maybe a little too late, but. And then the other thing I've noticed is in maybe in the past two weeks, a real bump up in social media posts from different parts of noaa. So, like the National Weather Service, you know, putting out lots of like, hey, tornado outbreak coming here are like five great ways, like, really bumping up a social media presence. Have you noticed that too, or is that just my imagination?
- [20:43]
Tracy Finara
It's gotten way better. There's still a lot of room to grow. But I mean, you cannot make a post out of a poster. Like, you cannot read that on a phone. Like, that is not doing anything and even like just putting a picture. I mean, here's the thing. Some of the satellite visualizations, they can get away with this stuff because you don't want to ruin the picture by putting words on there. But in general, if you have a message that is only in the caption, I mean, people are just going to keep on scrolling. Like, you got to do better than that too. But. But in the past, I agree with you, like, people have really been bumping up. And the really hopeful post was at first like. Like they were, like, seeing what they did. No one knows about the offices of Noah. They don't know that.
- [21:29]
Emily Gracie
Right. Yeah, I notice that too.
- [21:32]
Tracy Finara
You know, we're supposed to have these regional associations that are boots on the ground. On the ground. Doesn't know about the regional associations. Like, we just have to do so much better.
- [21:42]
Emily Gracie
I work within the weather community and I still don't know a lot about noaa. And that's kind of alarming. And I, I mean, I still, I find the. The whole makeup a little confusing at times. There are parts of it that I still don't fully understand what products come out of where. And I've been doing this for, you know, more than 20 years. I should have a little bit of a clue at this point. But I. It is very confusing for me. So I can imagine for, you know, just a regular person not involved in the community. It's. It's Gotta be incredibly difficult. Tom, curious about this cartoon. Where is it now? Is there any. Do you get. Did you get to take this with you or does this still belong to Noah? What is happening with Tegan tomorrow?
- [22:22]
Tom De La Berto
It still belongs to Noah and it's still up. It's@oceantoday.noah.gov teakandtom Teek is spelled T E E K and Tom and it is now up on YouTube. Yay. We finally got it up on YouTube. So it's available for now. And the National Science Teachers association conference is coming up this week. I was going to go to it until what happened, but I do know there will be some folks there talking about it. And there is a workshop, actually with teachers. There's two lesson plans for every single episode. So walking through those with teachers and going through what it all means and getting feedback as we continue to kind of think about it. But it is Noah's. Noah's thing. Even though it's my face and a cleaned up version of me as a cartoon character, but, you know, it's something that it was such a fun thing to do. It's kind of living out a dream. I always joke. I. People told me I was a cartoon character for years. I finally became one, so that was great. But yeah, I think that the fun thing with that is Ocean Today Studio does a lot of really great videos. And they had this brand new studio that came that right before COVID hit. They had this new studio that they put up in the Silver Spring office at the NOAA buildings. And we finally had a chance to kind of try it out. I kept pushing them, let's try things out. Let's try things a little bit outside the norm of what normally comes from Noah. I always joke, you can imagine a video from Noah. It's going to be close your eyes. It's a wave crashing over a rock bridge and a seagull flying and then maybe, you know, some flooding somewhere. It's like everyone has seen these videos before. Let's think of different ways to communicate this sort of information that might connect with people more. And I think that the cartoon series is one kind of push in that direction. But I was hoping that, you know, they take that and they keep kind of exploring different ways of connecting with the audience. And I think that might be a. A way of really kind of setting. Setting Noah apart from other government communication styles. We may not have as many resources as NOAA's, but maybe we can, as NASA, but we can maybe like, you know, with our creativity, with our creativity. Be able to push in places that no one else has gone yet in the government.
- [24:33]
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- [25:00]
Emily Gracie
Yeah, two kind of avenues of communication I think tend to be useful. You mentioned the teachers. National Science Teachers association is one and then the broadcast meteorologists being the other. I feel like those are two kind of good ways that NOAA has been able to get information out there. And so I'm curious if you've heard any like, success in that route or if there, there's any other kind of ambassadors like that you can think of to get that information out again.
- [25:23]
Tom De La Berto
Broadcast meteorologists are great. I mean that's, they've always been a really good connection. Teachers have been really, really useful as well. And there's a broadened broader community now with, you know, whether I feel like weather communication has been going on for a bajillion years. I feel like it's really well established. I feel like climate communication has been developing over time and I feel like nowadays there's a burgeoning climate communication world that is connected to not, not non profits especially, but also influencers too. And they're really interested in sort of this idea of communicating climate. But also they're trying to put new things out to their followers as well. And I'll be honest, I'm an elder millennial. I, I'm now struggling with new social media. I'm struggling, I try, I'm really, it's tough. So if I could have an influencer promote things better than I could, by all means have fun. So I have to learn a new, like a new, a new level of things. But I think there's just different avenues. It's ever changing. I can't, my brain doesn't work like that anymore. But no, it's, it's, it's, it's neat now that with everything and communication there's so many avenues that you can communicate, whether it's through the written word or video and long form, short form, on different, different platforms that if you're not trying things out, I mean, now's the time to try things out in different platforms.
- [26:50]
Emily Gracie
Tracy, you're trying things out what has worked? Like what platforms are most successful? Who are you connecting with on what platforms? Because I know you're on all of them. So give us some advice here.
- [26:59]
Tracy Finara
Yeah, but you know, when you have a full time job, social media is really hard. And that's why, you know, like it's so hard because you see these people that aren't practicing scientists doing science communication and they're like, where are the scientists? But then you look at the scientists and they don't have the time to do the science communication because I try to do both. But the thing is we all have to do a little bit so that no one feels the weight of the world on them when they're trying to do both. So for me, I really like Instagram. I'm only like Instagram because I'm comfortable with Instagram. I haven't really done much YouTube. I had a kid's show that I was co hosting. So that stuff, I put those videos up for my friends, kids and then I hear the TikTok scre. I just put up a page so I would save my name so no one took it. So I really haven't done much with TikTok. And then Facebook, I have someone else run my scientist page on Facebook for me. But apparently Facebook is a really untapped, like it's not something I shouldn't say untapped because a lot of people are tapping into it and doing really well. But yeah, so I'm not, I'm not an expert. The only reason why I have a follower account is because of tv.
- [28:11]
Emily Gracie
I don't think that's true. I think you have consistency. I think like every time I open my Instagram I see a new story from you. So I think like you're just, you're there, you're ever present and you're never like disappearing for long periods of time. So I think consistency is a huge part of it. Like a trusted face and voice that people know addressing what's going on.
- [28:31]
Tracy Finara
Yeah, consistency is the most important thing. And with stories, you're right, I've been consistent. But those that's like you're, you're not growing your followers that way. You. Because it's only your people that are seeing that follow you. It's the posts that I haven't been consistent with. And that's, you know, now in my new chapter, hopefully I can figure out a format that works.
- [28:58]
Emily Gracie
And then YouTube's the opposite. Right. Like you're reaching not people outside of your subscribers with the shorts and then you draw them in and then they see your posts.
- [29:07]
Tracy Finara
Yeah.
- [29:07]
Emily Gracie
Does anybody know anything about YouTube?
- [29:10]
Tom De La Berto
That's what I've heard. I've heard shorts is the way.
- [29:12]
Tracy Finara
Yeah.
- [29:13]
Tom De La Berto
To get them into your actual account.
- [29:15]
Emily Gracie
Elder millennials speculating here.
- [29:17]
Tom De La Berto
The kids these days, I hear life. I have two little kids. I have a nine year old and a six year old. Part of the reason why I can't do social media as much anymore because they would just. They don't let me. But it's one thing I've seen as they've kind of go through YouTube and YouTube kids is, geez, do they like shorts? Yes. And they love those things. And that's how they get to know these people. And then, yeah, then they'd be like, oh, can I follow this account? And that's the way they get into the longer form videos is just through seeing these bajillion shorts that they watch in 15 seconds at a time.
- [29:51]
Emily Gracie
It's alarming when you see your kid going through them. We don't really let our kids watch YouTube. But I have seen, you know, like my son going through. Because he loves all the, like, like all the people, you know, Tracy, like all the science YouTubers. You know, he's like big Mark Rober fan. Nick Uhas. Like he, he loves all these people on YouTube and just, he's like, they're blowing stuff up and, and he, they get drawn in through the shorts and then they just one right after the other, swiping through.
- [30:17]
Tracy Finara
I love that you mentioned Nick.
- [30:18]
Emily Gracie
I've interviewed Nick before. He's super nice.
- [30:21]
Tracy Finara
He's awesome. I think I'm gonna see him this week at the National STEM Fair and or STEM Fest in Washington dc.
- [30:27]
Emily Gracie
Oh, wow. Okay. So that's another way that communication is happening. Festivals, conferences, is stuff coming out of this. Are these successful in getting people to understand what's going on in the science world?
- [30:41]
Tracy Finara
I mean, I think that it's really good for workforce development. Like the, the festivals. This is like a science fair. It's a national science fair for kids. And when the kids feel empowered and like they're doing something important and adults are listening to them, they're going to keep on that, that path. You know, the, the best way that you can nurture a kid to be what the kid wants to be is tell the kid that they're really good at it. You know, and, and that's what these science fairs do is they, and it helps them with communication too. Like, I really think that the next wave of scientists are going to be much different than Our generation was okay.
- [31:24]
Emily Gracie
So I want you both to tell me what you think Noah does well, when it comes to communication or with anything. What are they doing really well at?
- [31:32]
Tracy Finara
I think that the biggest thing is that they're. They're really accurate, but almost too, you know, like. And you can trust them. You know, it's always accurate. You don't know where to get the information, but. But when you find it, it's accurate. And the thing is, like, the only problem with that is that they wait. They would. You know, when you have a crisis, you need to communicate right away or someone else is going. Some influencer is going to come in that knows no idea what's going on, and they're going to want the clicks. So I think that what Noah does. Well, they're right. They're as right as possible.
- [32:06]
Emily Gracie
They're like the oldest child, you know, in birth order, where they're like, a perfectionist. Yeah. They need the influence of, like, a little sibling to kind of make them step outside the mold a little bit there.
- [32:19]
Tracy Finara
Yes. That's a really good way to say it.
- [32:21]
Tom De La Berto
I'm the youngest child, so I can. I feel that a little bit.
- [32:24]
Emily Gracie
I would say.
- [32:26]
Tom De La Berto
I would say it's the passion. It's like, even if they don't want to communicate, these folks, they love what they do. I mean, they love what they do. And, like, if you want. Like, if you want to trust somebody, kind of goes into trust. Like, these people. This is all they've wanted to do, is work for Noah doing the thing that they're doing now. Like, these are the exact people he want in these positions. Because, yeah, they may not want to do an interview, but, geez, they will happily spend 48 hours looking at our radar during a severe weather outbreak. And that'd be like, the best day. They will sleep on cots inside. Weather forecast, they don't care. They're so excited to be able to forecast and to help people or to be able to study the ocean to deal with oil spills. Like, you name it. Like, whatever it is. Like, this is like the big leagues and, like, just the passion that the folks that Noah have. And you kind of see it, but, like, it's funny. Like, it doesn't wane. Like, every generation kind of comes in. Yeah, they may have different skill sets, but, like, you don't really see it waiting. Like, they know people worked at Noah for like, 30, 40 years, and yeah, they might become a little. Sometimes stuck in their ways, but they still really like what they do.
- [33:29]
Emily Gracie
It says something if they've been there that long, it says.
- [33:31]
Tom De La Berto
Exactly, exactly. It does say something. And, like, there is a lot of Noah pride in working for Noah and trying to do the best, because they just want to help people.
- [33:41]
Emily Gracie
Okay, what's next for you guys? Tom, what's next for you? What. What are your goals moving forward?
- [33:46]
Tom De La Berto
Well, I got to pick up the kids later today from aftercare. We've stayed home, dad, for the time being. Yeah. What I'm thinking about now, now that I have a little bit of time on my hand, is actually thinking a bit more strategic in the sort of communication activities I actually want to get involved in. Usually, I was involved a lot for work, which is kind of within the confines of what Noah does. And now, necessarily, depending on how things go, I have a little bit more flexibility to kind of. To kind of decide how I want my communication style to kind of change, whether that's podcasting, YouTube, video, whatever it may be. So in the near term, my goals are to actually stop and think about it for a little bit, because I have a little bit of time and meanwhile, just kind of continue to. To be involved in the community and speaking up for things and people. But, yeah, I'm actually looking forward to a little bit of time to think.
- [34:38]
Emily Gracie
Tracy, what's next for you?
- [34:40]
Tracy Finara
I am really focusing in. On. On my mission in Spectral Planet and creating something from that. So I've always wanted it to be like this fleet of mobile labs with that. That engage the public in citizen science and. And, you know, having this camp that's kind of like. I don't want to say Boy Scouts for girls, because I know that girls are allowed in Scouts, but I think that there's a special place for girls to do things with girls, and I kind of. And I would probably extend that to boys, too, but basically, you know, living off the land, like, understanding survivor and weather stuff through learning how to clean water and, you know, how, like, how to detect soils and trees and what you can eat in the wild. Like, all of that connects people to nature, and they feel like badasses because they're, you know, doing a Survivor camp. That's kind of where eventually I want to be. Starting out with a lot of. A lot of building on the communication, expanding on the camps that I do for kids right now, and I'm starting a podcast. What's going to kill you today? I think is going to be the.
- [35:49]
Tom De La Berto
Nice.
- [35:50]
Emily Gracie
Very uplifting.
- [35:51]
Tracy Finara
Yeah, yeah, it is. There's always. And the tagline is in how you survive, but there's Always a new chemical in the water. There's, you know, extreme weather. There's, you know, there's always something you hear every day. Something new is going to kill you. Right. That's kind of where I'm going with that. Like, in my three pillars, I have education, communication, and innovation. And Tom, like, some of the stuff that you did with Tek and Tom, like, I think can really, you know, your experience, you know, like, I'd love to work with you on something that we can actually make our own moving forward and help Noah have a better platform or a bigger platform by reaching further than they have before.
- [36:32]
Tom De La Berto
Cool. I'm in. Sounds good.
- [36:34]
Emily Gracie
So then I'll have you both back on my podcast to talk about this. When you collaborate, is there anything else either one of you wants to throw in here before we go about communication and the sciences in Noah?
- [36:47]
Tom De La Berto
One thing I always believe. I don't believe every scientist necessarily should communicate. I believe every scientist should be trained in how to communicate, communicate just so they know how. But it doesn't mean that everyone should, because I think it's. But there's a. There's an importance, I feel like, for teaching scientists the ways of communication, because I think that will then filter down into the way they write articles, the way they talk about that within their work groups, and I think it'll help actually improve the way that they inevitably do science. You know, we. There's no such thing. And I was like, that one person who goes into, like, a hole that comes out with a seminal paper 15 years, like, 15 months later. Like, no, it's like, like, science is done in teams. So teaching scientists and training scientists and how to communicate is only going to help create better science. And then you might also find some people who, you know, come out and realize that science communication is something they want to do. So I feel like it's a. It's a benefit. So I just wish we had a more cohesive and, like, thorough science communication training that's necessary for. For folks at Noah. And I think it'll just lead to just better things across the board.
- [37:47]
Tracy Finara
I. You. That's. I agree completely. Communication needs to be used to be something that we're taught or, you know, like. And I really think that. That Noah specifically would really benefit, like the. For whenever there's a crisis, whenever there's something coming up, make like a talking points that are. That are readable and consumable and put them out there. So then if there is this, there are communicators, if there are influencers, they have the correct information. And it's in a way that the public just trying to find information can read and understand. Like these forecasts, like the, the forecast guidance and the pages on the. Like you're like, what? Where is the information? You know what I mean? Like, it's just like you can't find it. And I think that we would really benefit, I think the communication staff would really benefit from it too if scientists really practiced writing down and foresaw things coming. You know, we're going to get a sarcasm bloom this year. We're going to get a red tide. But you know what I mean? Like before it happens, start making your talking points and then add the ones that are specific to the event and have them readily add in. And I know that the web developers can add things and remove things quickly because like the hour that I was no longer an employee, my name is removed from the website. So I know that we have the capacity to constantly update the websites and I think focus that on talking points.
- [39:23]
Emily Gracie
We're giving scientists a lot of slack here. But I also want to point out that I've run into major roadblocks when it comes to the public affairs people too, who aren't scientists. And there's some disconnect between those two fields, I think because a lot of times when I've dealt directly with the scientists and gone straight to them for the interview, it's actually gone great. And they haven't felt scripted, they've just spoken from what you know, they know. And then it's my job to make it understandable to the public. Right. Because I'm the interviewer. But sometimes public affairs comes in and they're like, well, stick to these talking points and we'd like to highlight this and don't talk about this. And then the scientist is now uncomfortable because they feel like they do have to be on a script. Whereas if you just left them to their own devices, sometimes it's is gold, you know.
- [40:10]
Tracy Finara
I totally agree with you. Yeah. I mean I, and, and I think that everything that I kind of said it hasn't been geared just towards scientists, just whole group. But you're, you're exactly right. And I think there's something to having really good leadership that promotes that, that leadership that are good communicators, like leaders that read from a script. It's, it's like my pet peeve. I want like Steve Thur at Noah is like, he was my scientist that was a communicator role model, you know what I mean? And then when I'm talking about passionate talks. Ken Graham gave a passionate talk. I don't know how he is with leadership otherwise, but he was, he is a fantastic. Like, he made me want to switch over to the, to the weather service a lot like Tom was doing earlier. Actually, you, when you were talking about passion, I was like, that's, that's, that's the thing. That's what we need to come out. That's where, that's what we need to reach the public with. And I think that credit is the other thing that is really important to scientists that is overlooked. You're in this civil servant role where you're not supposed to care about credit. It's about the public good. Right? It's about the greater good. But the truth is, on an individual basis, a scientist wants credit. And a lot of those obstacles with communicating someone else's science that doesn't want to communicate their science was because they were worried about credit, because they're not getting enough credit where they are right now. I think giving credit to people will make our communication strategy a lot better. And I know that sounds like a weird indirect relationship, but in my experience in leadership at Noah, that's what I found to be the most effective way to get people to start talking to each other, to get people to. Not to. To actually communicate on a regular basis, is by giving them credit and telling them what a great job they're doing.
- [42:00]
Tom De La Berto
I gotta give a shout out to data visualizers. We're talking a lot about. I, I'm bad at data visualizing, so I'm just. By talking about what I know, which is more like using the words out of my mouth. But I mean, the reason why the ENSO blog, for instance, on climate.gov is like shockingly beloved. I don't think when we created it that we thought it was going to be as loved as it became, but it is shockingly popular still in my brain. But a lot of it's because the images that we use for that are so well done because we actually have thought an actual investment in people who know how to make data visualizations. It's not like relying on, let's say a scientist who wrote the article wrote, did the research to also then create the images in a way that we've all seen journal articles and sometimes the images are a mess. By sometimes I mean all the time. I feel like that's what climate.gov does really, really well. A ton of focus on the visuals. And that was a whole thing like we weren't going to write an article when I was writing for climate.gov that didn't have a visual that could tell a story or a visual that could live by itself. That is such an effective way of communicating. But also branding Noah is by taking the time to visualize something well. And I don't think there's a ton of investment across Noah, specifically on the data visualizers. I do think that is a super useful way that we don't talk enough about.
- [43:20]
Tracy Finara
You know, we really do not only have to translate and communicate our science, but also grow our workforce. Like, it was really tough for us to even hire modelers at some points. As far as the data visualization goes, my big thing was there was no user interface. There was a black screen. So you're having oceanographers that, that fell in love with the ocean by being on the ocean, or marine biologists, and then you're putting them in front of a back black screen and saying, go find your passion. And so like, the visualizations for the public are important, but also for the scientists, you know, having those user interface interfaces to like, grow the workforce, to get kids doing modeling, like for the Unified Forecast System, which hopefully will be crowdsourced at one point. But. But there's just. There's a lot to be said for that data visualization and those people that can do it, because I'm not one of those people either. I think it's so impressive.
- [44:14]
Emily Gracie
Thank you so much for coming on today to discuss this. I think you guys had some amazing points. Love getting some insider information and wish you both the best in the future. I think you're going to do awesome things and I can't wait to hear all about it.
- [44:24]
Tom De La Berto
Thanks for having us.
- [44:25]
Tracy Finara
Thank you.
- [44:27]
Emily Gracie
Off the Radar is a production of the National Weather Desk. Make sure you follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes publish every Tuesday. Remember to reach out if you want to show your thoughts on today's episode or if you have an idea for a future episode. Thank you to Tracy Fenara and Tom deliberto for joining me today and sharing their thoughts on communication. Thanks to the National Weather Desk and Sinclair Broadcast Group for their ongoing support of the podcast, as well as my associate producer Brian Petrus for his help on today's episode. I'm meteorologist Emily Gracie. Make it a great day.
- [45:09]
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