Can Talking to Strangers Fix Our Politics?

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau - Episode Summary: "Can Talking to Strangers Fix Our Politics?"

Host: Jon Favreau
Guest: Dave Isay, Founder of StoryCorps
Release Date: December 8, 2024
Podcast: Offline with Jon Favreau

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1. Introduction to StoryCorps and Dave Isay

In this episode, Jon Favreau welcomes Dave Isay, the visionary behind StoryCorps, to discuss the profound impact of personal conversations on bridging political divides. Dave shares his journey from a radio documentary producer to establishing the largest collection of personal narratives globally.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [02:42]: "StoryCorps is about collecting the wisdom of humanity... it's really about the beauty and the grace in the stories of people hiding in plain sight all around us."

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2. The Essence of StoryCorps

Dave delves into the origins of StoryCorps, emphasizing its mission to provide a platform for everyday people to share their stories. He explains the unique setup of StoryCorps booths, where participants engage in deep, meaningful conversations that are preserved for future generations.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [02:42]: "You come to the booth, met by a facilitator, and sit across from your loved one for 40 minutes to ask questions and listen. It’s a sacred space where people open up in ways they usually don’t."

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3. The Genesis of One Small Step

Addressing the growing polarization in American politics, Dave introduces the One Small Step initiative. This program aims to facilitate conversations between individuals from opposing political spectrums without delving into political debates, focusing instead on personal connections.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [16:20]: "One Small Step is about putting strangers together across political divides... our goal is to get to know each other as human beings under the Brene Brown quote that it's hard to hit up close."

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4. How One Small Step Works

Jon and Dave discuss the mechanics of One Small Step, including the recruitment process, matching participants, and the structure of conversations. Dave highlights the importance of preparing participants with thoughtful questions to guide their interactions.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [23:56]: "We match you with someone across the divide, start by reading each other's bios, and encourage conversations about your lives rather than politics. It’s about building trust and understanding."

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5. The Impact of Social Media and Polarization

The conversation shifts to the detrimental effects of social media on interpersonal communication. Dave asserts that platforms have amplified conflict and extremism, making genuine conversations like those in StoryCorps and One Small Step even more crucial.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [09:46]: "Social media has been pretty corrosive... One Small Step acts as a hope machine, reminding people they matter and are being listened to."

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6. Empirical Evidence and Contact Theory

Jon inquires about the scientific backing of One Small Step. Dave references contact theory from social psychology, explaining how structured interactions can reduce prejudice and improve perceptions of opposing groups.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [30:59]: "Contact theory suggests that under specific conditions, interactions can lead to reduced prejudice. Our findings show that participants not only view their partners more positively but also the out-group as a whole."

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7. Challenges and Lessons Learned

Dave candidly shares the hurdles One Small Step has faced, including initial failures when trying to exclude political discussions. He emphasizes the evolving nature of the program and the ongoing efforts to refine its approach to foster meaningful connections.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [27:00]: "When we tried to exclude politics entirely, it failed. We realized that building social capital is essential before political conversations can happen naturally."

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8. Scaling and Future Plans

Looking ahead, Dave outlines ambitious goals for One Small Step, aiming to engage millions across the nation. He underscores the importance of making these conversations a cultural norm and leveraging partnerships and media to amplify the initiative’s reach.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [42:36]: "We aim to have millions of people participate. It’s about making it cool to talk across divides and embedding it into our culture through every possible tool."

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9. Practical Advice for Listeners

As the episode concludes, Dave offers actionable tips for listeners navigating politically charged environments, especially during holiday gatherings. He encourages persistence in seeking understanding and maintaining open lines of communication.

Notable Quote:

Dave Isay [47:06]: "Don’t give up. Keep trying to see the humanity in others, even when it feels challenging. It’s through these small steps that meaningful change begins."

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Key Takeaways:

• StoryCorps' Mission: Capture and preserve personal stories to foster empathy and understanding across generations.

• One Small Step Initiative: Create structured, non-political conversations between individuals from opposing political backgrounds to bridge divides.

• Impact of Social Media: While social platforms amplify conflict, initiatives like StoryCorps and One Small Step provide a counterbalance by promoting genuine human connections.

• Scientific Foundation: Grounded in contact theory, these conversations have empirically shown to reduce prejudice and enhance perceptions of out-groups.

• Future Aspirations: Aiming for widespread participation to normalize cross-political dialogue and rebuild trust in societal institutions.

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Conclusion:

This episode of "Offline with Jon Favreau" offers a poignant exploration of how personal interactions can mend the fractures within our political landscape. Through Dave Isay’s insights and experiences with StoryCorps and One Small Step, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the power of human connection in fostering a more unified and compassionate society.

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Join the Conversation: To participate in One Small Step or explore more about StoryCorps, visit StoryCorps.org and consider subscribing to "Offline with Jon Favreau" for more enlightening discussions on technology's impact on our lives.

Transcript

[Angelina Jolie]

Variety raves Maria is absolute perfection. And Entertainment Weekly hails Academy Award winner Angelina Jolie. Brings tragedy and triumph to the last days of opera singer Maria Callas.

[Dave Isay]

Finally, I am in control.

[Angelina Jolie]

And critics agree. It's a towering tour de force performance from Angelina Jolie and a career best.

[Dave Isay]

My life is opera. There is no reason in Opera Maria.

[Angelina Jolie]

Directed by Pablo Laray, for your consideration, now playing its Lech theaters and on Netflix December 11th.

[Dave Isay]

We're based in Brooklyn, and our staff tends to be liberal or super liberal. But seeing people who are in these interviews as facilitators and doubting it at first and then becoming the biggest boosters of One Small Step and am I allowed to swear? Yeah, if you fuck with their conservative participants, they will kill you. You know, like they fall in love with their participants.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Offline. I'm Jon Favreau. You just heard from Dave Isay. He's the founder of StoryCorps. If you're a fan of public radio, you've probably heard of StoryCorps. It's a segment on NPR's Morning Edition, a podcast, and an audio archive. In fact, it's now the single largest collection of personal narratives in the world. The model is simple. Two people sit down in a StoryCorps booth and interview each other. Friends, relatives, strangers. Anyone can sign up to do it. One copy of the recording is stored at the Library of Congress, and the participants walk away with the other. Turns out when you put people face to face in a snug recording booth with microphones, they open up and connect in ways you don't usually get to connect, as we've talked about quite a bit on the show. So back in 2016, StoryCorps started a new initiative called One Small Step, which facilitates conversations between people on opposite sides of the political divide. But the catch is the participants are encouraged not to debate politics. The goal is simply to get to know each other as people. So with the holidays and Trump's inauguration right around the corner, we wanted to have the founder of StoryCorps, Dave Isay, on the show to discuss the importance of talking to people you disagree with, what we lose when we take our conversations online and the surprising results of One Small Step. Dave, I say welcome to Offline.

[Dave Isay]

John. It's good to be here.

[Jon Favreau]

So I know about StoryCorps. I'm sure some of our listeners do. But for those who don't, can you talk a bit about how you got started originally and what the initial goal was all the way back in 2003?

[Dave Isay]

Sure. So I was a Radio documentary producer for decades before starting storycorps. And for better or worse, I was always interested in the public service value of audio more than entertainment value, and did lots of kind of social justice documentaries and saw that listening to people. Like, I did something with guys who were serving the longest sentences in american history down in louisiana, and just them being able to talk about their, you know, their parents and their kids and their dreams for the future, you know, it was important and sometimes transformative in their lives. And so had this kind of crazy idea 20 years ago to take documentary and sort of turn it on its head, because when you do a radio show, you interview someone and then it gets sent out to the world to be heard by many, many people, hopefully. And that's true of doing a film, documentary or a radio, tv, print. And the idea with storycorps was to give as many people as possible the chance to be listened to. So we put a booth in grand central terminal where you can bring anyone who you want to honor by listening to their story. Your grandma, your mom, a friend. You come to the booth, you're met by a facilitator who works for storycorps, who brings you inside. Door shuts. You're in this sacred space, complete silence, Lights are low. And you sit across from your grandma for 40 minutes, and you ask questions and you listen. And from the beginning of storycorps, you know, people thought of this as if I had 40 minutes left to live. What would I say to my grandma? What would I ask of my grandma? And I knew, as you know, that the microphone gives you the license to ask things you've never asked before, to say things you've never said before. At the end of the 40 minutes, you get a copy, and another one stays with us and goes to the library of congress so your great, great, great grandkids can get to know your grandmother through her voice and story. All everyday people. Kind of a crazy idea. At first. Nobody came. Like, people had absolutely no idea what we were doing. We had some super fans. We had, like, one lady who came, I think it was like 190 times, she would grab people off the subway and bring them to the booth. But eventually it got super popular, and we launched airstream trailers to travel the country. We've had about 700,000 people participate now. And essentially, we're kind of collecting the wisdom of humanity, and it's really about the. The beauty and the grace and the poetry in the stories of people hiding in plain sight all around us. If we just take the time to listen so that's what we call signature storycorps. And it's my passion, what I'll be doing until they put me in that pine box.

[Jon Favreau]

What makes it your passion? Why have you gravitated towards it? And why'd you do this for so long?

[Dave Isay]

I'm incredibly distractible. I can't keep interest in something for more than, like, five minutes. And it's been, like, 21 years of StoryCorps, and I still wake up every day, and I'm, like, pounding into my phone, like, ideas about, you know, about this thing. It's so simple, but there's so many layers to it because it's just about what it means to be alive. So, like, I've always been interested in the stories of just us, of just people, regular people. And it's an onion you can't stop. I mean, it's just absolutely fascinating. And, you know, the wisdom, it's like, everything about how to live life. And I just started thinking about this, like, a couple of, like, maybe a month ago. But when I was a kid, I was, like. I was, like, terrified of people. I've always been kind of an introvert. So my mom likes to tell the story that, like, she would be pushing me in a carriage down the street, and every time I'd see another kid, I'd start screaming, like, go home. Go. And, you know, I think that I always, like. I think when I was growing up, I thought that maybe every People were bad, you know? And this whole thing has just been, like, a journey to figure out whether I was right or whether I was wrong and I was wrong. I mean, that's the lesson of the 21 year. So I can't really explain it, but it's, like, the most interesting, beautiful thing to be involved in. It just keeps me going every day.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm interested in how the. The conversations go. Are there prompts that everyone gets? Like, are people preparing before they go into the booth? Because you mentioned that sometimes they just grab someone off the subway and go in. Like, how does it. How does it unfold?

[Dave Isay]

Not anymore. Not anymore. Now it's hard to get an interview. Like, people can only come. Come once, and they pick that person who they really want to honor by listening to their story. So, yeah, I mean, my background is in journalism, and, you know, you prepare before you do an interview. So we ask people to prepare. We have kind of the 10 best questions for people to talk about, and then, like, hundreds of others that people can choose. So there's usually an interviewer and an interviewee so the person invites that other person to come to the booth and the interviewer prepares before they go in. But the facilitator, whose job it is to bear witness to these interviews, it's how they describe it. They, from what I understand, will always tell people, like, ask that question you've always wanted to ask. They're 40 minute sessions because the 40 minutes go by. Incredible. So like within the first 10 minutes, you just want to. You want to go there. It's weird. I mean, like 700,000 people, like pretty much everybody cries in these things when they're having these conversations. And you know, I think, you know, storycorps in some ways it's like my communications people hate when I say this because it's like the worst way to sell it. But everything about storycorps just reminds you you're going to die. Like, that's just, like, that's just what it is. And it has a lot in common. You know, in hospice, you know, there's this thing where there are four things you're supposed to say if you're dying or if you have a loved one who's dying. You know, thank you. I love you. Forgive me. I forgive you. And that's essentially what happens. You know, hopefully the people in the booth aren't actively dying when they're having their conversation, but that's what's happening. It's a chance to say like the really important things to the people who are most important in your life. So, yeah, people prepare and it's usually a pretty. It's a pretty intense experience.

[Jon Favreau]

We talk a lot on this show about how the Internet and social media make. Have made sort of a lot of things harder and worse. But interpersonal communication, the way that we interact with each other, not only strangers online, but even people in our family, our friends, text is different from like an in person conversation. As technology has advanced from 2003 when you guys started until now, have you noticed that sort of change people at all shape the way that conversations happen? Do you find that people are maybe even more fulfilled after having one of these conversations because they are sort of starved for the kind of human connection and storytelling that doesn't always happen today.

[Dave Isay]

So first of all, I mean, I think social media, as you've talked about a lot on your show, I mean, it's been pretty corrosive and we've kind of built engines to maximize conflict and elevate the most extreme voices. I think that the kind of conversations that happened in the StoryCorps booth over the last 21 years. They don't really change. It hasn't changed, and it hasn't been changed by social media. I mean, I think people didn't have those conversations really before social media, and they don't have them that much now. So I don't think it's changed the tenor of what happens in the booth. But I do think that StoryCorps is kind of. I like to think of it as kind of a hope machine, and I think people feel less hope as time goes on. So, I mean, there's definitely more interest in. Much more interest in storycorps. It's grown over time. I don't know if that's related to social media, but social media hasn't changed the way that people who. Who come into the booth interact with each other. And I don't think it's a selection bias. You know, people are capable of doing this stuff. You know, when I. When I started, when StoryCorps started, you know, I used to do these radio documentaries that were pretty good, and I thought that there was something like, I think in my head that I thought there was something kind of magic about the way I did interviews that created these, like, fantastic radio documentaries. And then StoryCorps started, and, like, everybody did these fantastic interviews. Like, it had nothing to do with me. I was totally wrong. So we're all capable of asking these questions and having these moments with people. And I think StoryCorps reminds people that they matter and won't be forgotten. And part of the problem we have in this country at this point is that people, they don't feel like they matter. They don't feel like they're being listened to. And that all goes back to your question about why, after 21 years, I'm still obsessed with this thing. So it all ties into, I guess, what's happening in the country.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, it's also just an incredible social experiment. I wonder, you know, hundreds of thousands of interviews now, what are the most common themes you've detected from the stories that you've heard?

[Dave Isay]

So we've been everywhere, you know, thousands of cities, all 50 states, obviously. And, you know, the accents change and the occupations change, but everybody talks about the same thing. Again, you're thinking about this that, like, for 40 minutes, my great, great grandchildren are gonna hear this. What am I gonna say? And part of it, you know, people, first of all, I think they bring their best angels into the booth because they're aware of that, you know, that there's no question that their great grandchildren are gonna listen to this thing. But you know, people talk about the great themes of human existence in every interview. It's the people you love. Birth, you know, it's again, it's a constant reminder of what's really important. Nobody reads their cv, you know, everybody, you know, and the questions, the best, the most frequently asked questions, you know, who is kindest to you in your life? How do you want to be remembered? You know, who are your parents? That kind of stuff. So it's all very visceral, kind of emotional questions that people just gravitate to in these kind of. In these interviews.

[Jon Favreau]

So I'd love to talk about your one Small Step initiative, which is right in my wheelhouse and, and also stemmed from the StoryCorps project.

[Dave Isay]

You want to hear a piece of tape?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I'd love it.

[Dave Isay]

Okay. So this is not a one Small step interview, but it's one of the stories that helped inspire One Small Step. So this is a StoryCorps interview between a guy named Joseph Wideknecht, who was a laid off sheet metal worker. He showed up at an anti Trump rally in Austin at UT and he was wearing a Make a America Great Again hat. And Amina Omdine was a student at UT at the time, and she was one of the marchers that day. And they came to StoryCorps to remember the moment that brought them together.

[D]

I noticed you with the hat and I noticed that you were surrounded by some people and I noticed that they were being kind of threatening. And then somebody snatched your hat off your head. And that's the point where something kind of snapped inside me because I wear a Muslim hijab. And I've been in situations where people have tried to snatch it off my head. And I rushed towards you and I just started screaming, leave him alone. Give me that back.

[E]

I don't think we could be any further apart as people. And yet it was just kind of like this common that's not okay moment. You are genuinely the only Muslim person I know. It's not that I've actively avoided. It's just I've just never been in the position where I can interact for an extended period of time. So I guess my views on the Muslim community have been influenced by a lot of the news articles and things of that nature.

[D]

I feel like a lot of times in the media, you don't see the normal Muslim, the one that listens to classic rock like I do. You don't meet that Muslim.

[E]

Can you tell me about where you grew up? What was that part of your life like?

[D]

So I was born In Baghdad, in Iraq. I moved to the US when I was 10 years old.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

Being a Muslim girl, I stood out in almost every single way that you can. In middle school, the worst time to stand out. What about you? How was it like when you grow up?

[E]

I was homeschooled, so it was. It was a vastly different experience. Socially. It was. I didn't have, I guess, as many friends as most people would. I only went to public school one year of my life, and I got in three fights, and I lost all of them. I actually lost a lot of friends because of the selection, because of my political stance. So I hope that I can be the reason that someone decides to talk to someone as opposed to just cutting them out of their life or blocking them on Twitter.

[D]

You know, I'd like for this to encourage other people to engage in more conversations with people that you don't agree with.

[E]

That's what it's all about. I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who felt like that.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that makes you feel good.

[Dave Isay]

It really happened.

[Jon Favreau]

What an exchange. I know. It's like people are going to not believe that that's even real.

[Dave Isay]

That's one of the problems we have with one small step, actually, which is people hear stuff and they think it's actors, and that's a problem we're trying to figure out how to deal with.

[Jon Favreau]

How did one small step come about?

[Dave Isay]

It was about nine years ago, I guess around 2016, 2015, and I started becoming concerned about toxic polarization in the country. Not the fact that we argue with each other, which is healthy and great, but what happens when we can't see each other as human beings across political divides anymore? And the toxic polarization obviously has blossomed. I don't know if that's the right word to use in not seeing each other as human beings, but, you know, four in five voters now describe the other side as hateful and brainwashed. Only 1 in 10 voters regard people with different politics as theirs as reasonable. And as you know, everybody knows, half the country says there's going to be a civil war in our lifetime. And what we do is human connections. So the question was, is there anything with what we've learned that we could do to try and take a run at this problem? So Everybody, all the 700,000 people who'd participated in StoryCorps up until that time, knew and loved each other. So we started experimenting with putting strangers together across the political divide. It took a while for us to figure out how to make this work. But in the end, it's not to talk about politics, just talk about who they are as human beings under the Brene Brown quote that it's hard to hit up close. And our Hippocratic oath is to do no harm to people who come to StoryCorps. Like, you're going to walk out of the booth better off than when you came in. So we spent years testing, years and years testing one small step, putting these strangers together to make sure we weren't doing any damage to people. And we launched about two years ago in a few cities and then nationally a couple of months ago. And the dream is to convince the country that it's our patriotic duty to see the humanity in people with whom we disagree. I'm sure that, like, a lot of people's heads will pop off your listeners in the next, like, however many minutes we talk about this. But the.

[Jon Favreau]

Not the offline listeners, Offline listeners are just very, very good about this. Okay.

[Dave Isay]

All right. It seems Pollyanna ish, but, you know, we've had like, a thousand, more than a thousand facilitators who serve a year or 2 With StoryCorps traveling the country, as I said, bearing witness to these interviews. And, you know, if you ask them what they've learned to a person, like, the first answer that they give after they come off their tour of duty is like a version, some version of the Anne Frank quote that people are basically good. And, like, you know, when you're in the hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands, there could be a selection bias, but in the kind of numbers that we're dealing with, there just isn't. And that's been our experience with one small step as well. You know, people come into these conversations scared, and they leave as friends almost to a person. We've had about 6,7000 people participate so far. And, you know, again, it kind of belies belief, but it happens every time. So we feel like we have this, like, I don't know, I mean, how much, like, whatever has been going on so far, like, obviously isn't working terribly well, Right? So, like, maybe the answer is proximity. Like, maybe the answer is to come towards each other and we're gonna, you know, fight with everything we've got to see if, like, it's a crazy, uphill battle, but we are gonna do everything we can to see if we can make this thing stick and make it cool to talk to people across the divides. Like, almost impossible, but there's that Nelson Mandela quote. It always seems impossible until it's done. And we're just going to see if we can get it done. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dave Isay]

That boy. Howdy.

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[Dave Isay]

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[Dave Isay]

Yeah. So first we were in these cities and we would do tons of advertising in the cities and earned media and then we launched nationally and we have like thousands of billboards up across the country and PSAs running and partnerships with the NFL. So everybody knows what they're getting into and basically you kind of raise your hand and we need an equal number of liberals and conservatives to make this work. You raise your hand. The interviews for many years were face to face. And since we went national, because we're matching people across the country, we have this bespoke, safe digital portal. Now all these go to the Library of Congress as well. And like, back to the, like, better angels thing. I mean, part of the reason this works is because people know that they're going to be listened to. So you sign up and you fill out. It takes about five minutes. You fill out a form and you like, it's like, what are your politics? And then there are some questions about, like, things that have happened in your life. So, you know, did you recently have a grandkid or get divorced or get married? And we kind of match you with someone who's got stuff in common with you without you knowing what that is. And then you're put with someone across the divides and either in person or over a zoom and actually reading these bios again, it's all everyday people. And this is not like these are real people. It's not like Lincoln Project Republicans and Quakers coming together to find their common ground. It's like Trump voters and Harris voters and you fill out a bio and like, you read these bios and it's like, I find it incredibly moving to read the bios because it's just America, you know, it's like. And when you get on the call, it starts with you reading your partner's bio to them, and then they read your bio to you, and then you just start talking about your life. Now, we suggest people don't talk about politics, and we have all kinds of ground rules about what happens if you do. Most people just start talking about their lives and at the end they may talk about politics. And the kind of questions we suggest are kind of come at it from an angle, you know, like, what is it that you, that you don't like about people on your own side? You know, that kind of stuff. So it's not as inflammatory because something, you know, well, like, nobody has ever been sworn at, called a name, yelled at, and it's caused them to change their mind, you know, in any, like, in the history of humanity. So. So this is just a way that people can connect. And again, listening to the interviews, for the most part, they're very similar. So it's not like StoryCorps where you've got these beautiful technicolor stories that come out, but it always ends with people being like, let's have dinner if they're in the same place, or, I want you to meet my husband, or, we need to do this Again, so I think that the actual interaction in the One Small Step interviews is in some ways more powerful than the StoryCorps interviews. But the content itself is repetitive. It's not as deep. But what happens in those sessions is unbelievably profound, especially given the moment, because it just seems like this would be impossible.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm fascinated by the decision to not make the conversations about politics. And, you know, we tried it. Yeah. So how did that go?

[Dave Isay]

Fail.

[Jon Favreau]

That's what I'm interested in. Well, so tell me what happened.

[Dave Isay]

Well, I mean, you know, our. That's why we call it One Small Step, because it's, you know, and we're figuring out what the second steps and third steps are. So we found with strangers that, you know it. You need to have some kind of social capital before you can start talking about politics. And. And that's what the One Small Step thing is about, that you begin to build trust, and then, you know, at some point you can go there. But yeah, no, it kind of went like it's going in the country, you know, not great. So we stopped that, like, almost immediately. One of the most powerful things about One Small Step for me has been seeing, like, the team, the facilitators who, like, may come in doubting things. And, you know, we're based in Brooklyn and, you know, our staff tends to be liberal or, like, super liberal and seeing. But seeing people who are in these interviews as facilitators and, like, doubting it at first and then becoming, like, the biggest boosters of One Small Step and, like, am I allowed to swear? Yeah, if you fuck with their conservative participants, they will kill you. You know, like, they fall in love with their participants, you know, and seeing how this affects the facilitators just to me as, like, kind of being on the inside has been one of the most powerful pieces of One Small Step. I mean, I'm. I'm. I'm convinced that we're onto something. And I don't know if we're going to get to the mountaintop, but I hope we do.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I mean, it's. It sounds very, very promising. The reason I asked about the political conversations is because, like, I do think that ultimately we need to be able to sit down with people who don't share our politics and have those conversations because then we can talk about our lives, but then we're just sort of ignoring the elephant in the room as it may be.

[Dave Isay]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

But I also, like, it's funny for me personally, like, I. Obviously, people know what I do for A living and have done for a living for a while. And so people are very aware that I'm a partisan Democrat and a liberal. But when I meet people who don't share my politics, like, I almost never get in fights with them. Like I, you know, I mean, I was, I remember I was at a, one of my best friend's wedding and his, the woman he married, one of her, one of the bridesmaids, she's like, she's like in Republican politics and has been for a while and like had worked for Ben Shapiro people, you know, and someone told me about that. I'm like, oh boy, boy, this is going to be, you know, and then we ended up having this like hour long conversation at the wedding where we like gossiped about politics, talked about politics, talked from our perspectives, but we didn't, we didn't yell at each other. But I'm also like, I don't know, what am I, I'm not going to start screaming at someone at a wedding. That sounds nuts. And like, what am I going to do? I'm going to yell, I'm going to, I'm going to yell her views out of her. Like, how is that going to work?

[Dave Isay]

That goes back to the social media piece, right? Because that's where like it frees you up to do this like horrible stuff. Everybody is like, the sense of nuance is like gone. Like, people are not two dimensional cutouts. We're doing a bunch of things with one small step. One is like trying to change social norms and say, like, it is okay for us to talk to people across the political divides, but also we're dealing with perceptual polarization. You know, like, we think that the other side is like way crazier and more extreme than they actually are. And you know, I think the only way that we can like deal with that, like the operative word is proximity. And you know, like, why are we alive if not to like be surprised by people and get out and like see who human beings are?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You know, I mean, is there empirical evidence that shows that conversations like these succeed in, aside from anecdotally like shifting people's perceptions of other political groups?

[Dave Isay]

Yeah. So we have, I mean, we have a ton of research behind One Small Step. And the undergirding like theory is something called contact theory, which was, which is, I think the most studied theory in the history of psychology. It comes out of social psychology. A guy named Gordon Alport in the 1950s created this idea. And the entire field of social psychology was created after World War II to like, what the fuck happened here? That was social psychology ten years later. Contact theory. So contact theory says that under very specific circumstances, if you put people who are enemies together, uss and thems, and they have a visceral experience, and there's like a whole bunch of things that have to be in place in order for it to work, and they have this experience with each other that they can come out the other side, like, not seeing the other person as evil anymore. And one of the like, really encouraging things about one small step is that in almost all of the studies of contact theory, like you have a conversation with someone across divides from you or whatever experience it is, or you do something together and you say, okay, well that person, I like them, but like, everybody else is a Nazi who's like, on that side. So what the research is seeing with one small step for the first time, as far as I'm aware of, it's actually generalizing. So not only do you see your partner as like, not like okay, but you see the entire out group as okay. And so that's like really exciting to us. Like, this makes people more hopeful and the temperature of their feelings about the other side like, just plunges when they have these conversations.

[Jon Favreau]

You mentioned selection bias. It made me think the axis of politics has changed what we debate about in the Trump era, right? And it used to be like size and role of government, taxes and issues like that. And one thing that's changed in the Trump era is that Trump voters are now very low trust voters. And faith in institutions is obviously down across all parties and across populations everywhere. But you've got these really low trust voters who tend to gravitate now towards Donald Trump. And I wonder if, because it's a problem with polling, right? You can never get the low trust voters in the polls. And so they were dealing with, dealing with how to fix that problem. But I wonder, in one small step, have you noticed that some voters, especially some of the Trump voters, just feel more distrustful or cynical towards, you know, institutions beyond politics when they're having these conversations. Are you worried that maybe you're not capturing those kinds of voters or just because they think that the lack of trust in institutions seems like it is at the, or at least one of the core challenges of, and causes of polarization today.

[Dave Isay]

Right. And I think that, that, you know, again, building hope and trust in any way we can, like again, clawing up that mountain as part of what we're trying to do. And a big piece of this has to do with the Cratering of trust in institutions and each other. And obviously like we're starting with each other with, with one small step. So, you know, we work really closely with this organization called More in Common and they're kind of the global leaders in studying polarization around the world. And they came up with the term the exhausted majority that, you know, some, something like depending on how you cut it, like 87% of the country are sick of the division, scared of where it's leading us and looking for a way out. But they have this taxonomy of America called hidden tribes, which divides voters up into all these groups from the left to the right. And you know, there's political, you're talking about politically disengaged voters. That's people on the left and the right and more so on the right now. But all of the testing and all the polling we do is to try and reach politically disengaged voters because if we can reach them, we can reach anybody. So we're very focused on that. Again, like, look, nothing good is easy. Like we're picking the hardest route we possibly can. But yes, we're focused on that and very aware of the danger of this utter dissolution in trust. A democracy just can't survive in a swamp of contempt and distrust. So this is like, it's like, we've got to figure this out.

[Jon Favreau]

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I like those keto cookies, by the way.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dave Isay]

Well, look how much was spent all in all on the election. $10 billion, I think, something like that. And a lot of the money was spent trying to get us to fear each other. So there's a multibillion dollar hate industrial complex and people talk about conflict entrepreneurs and I mean it goes back to the social media stuff. I mean, you know this stuff, you can recite it backwards. What was the line of the guy who created the retweet button? Do you remember what that was? He's like, I just gave 4 year olds like machine guns or something like that.

[Jon Favreau]

Something like that. Yeah.

[Dave Isay]

So I think President Obama was right. And people also talk about in Washington that I know you've heard this a million times, that people used to carpool together and play baseball together and have dinner together and things were very different. So, you know, look, either you give up or you try and like get to a better place. So I don't know, I don't know anything else to do but like try. I think about the marriage equality like playbook a lot. And that was, you know, one of the great civil rights victories of the last 50 years. And their basic the Evan Wolfson and all the people who like made this happen, like they assume the best in others and they were like, if you're not with us, you're not with us yet. And it was just like this again.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, man, yeah. It sounds so quaint and foreign. I'm like, gosh, we could use some of that today.

[Dave Isay]

But it worked.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it worked.

[Dave Isay]

So, you know, I think those, like, basic tenets of, like, none of us are the worst things we've ever done. And just, like, I think you just have to fiercely and relentlessly, like, assume the best in others. And I'm not in the booth, but I'm in the fight. And this is based on, like, real experience. So it sounds so corny, but there's so much good out there. And if we could figure out, like, how to see each other, then, like, I think there's a way forward for our country. Like, we can't. We can't become a country where we don't care about each other. You just have to keep getting up off the mat and, like, you beat on people's hearts until finally you win.

[Jon Favreau]

And you hope it becomes a virtuous cycle. Right? You have.

[Dave Isay]

Exactly.

[Jon Favreau]

You have a good conversation. It makes you feel better the next time you have a political interaction. Maybe you're not as big of an asshole as you thought you would be, and you're just a little. What are the plans for scaling this up? You said you just a couple months ago, you guys went national. Like, what's the. What's the big vision?

[Dave Isay]

Sounds a little crazy, but we want, you know, thousands, hundreds of thousands, and then millions of people to do this. I have no idea if we're going to pull it off, but we want it to become. I think we have to figure out how to make this cool and see if we can embed it into the culture. And we're just going to use every tool we possibly can at our disposal to see if we can make it happen. It's just one small step. But if we don't take a step back from this abyss, I don't think it's too late. And if we don't take a step back from this abyss that we're at, you know, it's just not going to end well for the country. We are just going to do everything we can through, you know, partnerships and advertising and celebrities. Again, all very difficult, but, like, just, like, keep pounding until. Until it catches on.

[Jon Favreau]

I heard you're even. You're. You're going on Glenn Beck to recruit people. How'd that go?

[Dave Isay]

I have been for. For years.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, for years.

[Dave Isay]

Yeah. So. So Glenn Beckham listeners are unbelievably thoughtful. They are our best conservative participants, like, almost to a person. Yeah. A lot of Glenn Beck stories But, yeah, I've been doing that. I've been. I've been going on Glenn's show for years.

[Jon Favreau]

You guys talk politics or do you just talk sort of? No, you talk about One Small Step.

[Dave Isay]

I mean, he.

[Jon Favreau]

We. Or StoryCorps.

[Dave Isay]

We talk about. We talk about StoryCorps and one small Step. And we play stories. I was in a bubble before I was starting One Small Step. I remember when we started One Small Step at the very, like, very beginning. So this would have been 2016. And I went on NPR on All Things Considered looking, like, to get volunteers to participate, to test this thing. And, you know, we got, like, thousands of people. And I was on a plane, and one of the responses that came in, it was to me, and it was like, you know, you're a. And a snowflake, and like, you're the scum of, like, whatever. I don't know. I don't remember what he was saying. And then. And someone sent it to me on the go. Go wireless on the Delta plane. And I read it, and I. And they were like, can you believe this asshole? And I just, like, I wrote him back, and I was like, I got your email. I'd like to do a story, One Small Step interview with you. And he wrote me back immediately, and he was just like, I'd love that, and I'd like to take you out to dinner, too. And I. And, like, I had no idea who this guy was. And like, two weeks later, you know, he was a guy. He was like, he worked at cvs, lived in Rhode island, conservative kid. And, like, I knew the minute, like, I shook his hand and he looked me in the eye like he was never going to do anything like this again. And I did an interview with him, and basically, you know, I said, like, so what was that? And he was like, I was in my car, and I was flipping through the radio, and I heard you. And I just picked up my phone and just, like, called in and left the. I didn't even know what I said. And it was actually kind of interesting. He called me, like, every name in the book and in our interview, like, my dad was gay. And I said my dad was gay in the interview. And at the end, he was like, he was like, I am so sorry I called you a. Like, you called me every. Like, I don't care. Like, you called me every name you possibly could. And like, he was, like, weepy over this. And I know that he would never do something like that again. So that Glenn Beck, all this stuff, they're just Like I was reading that on this perceptual polarization thing, this group More in Common did a study, and Democrats and Republicans imagine that people on the other side are twice as extreme as they actually are. And there's like this kind of famous ridiculous statistic that both Democrats and Republicans think that 15% of people on the other side approve of child molestation. And of course, the answer is zero. But this More In Common study found that Democrats with postgraduate degrees are three times more inaccurate in their perceptions of the other side than Democrats who didn't graduate high school. So it's like we just got to that.

[Jon Favreau]

I believe.

[Dave Isay]

Yeah, I believe. But it's crazy, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, no, I know. I know. All right, last question. Any tips for our listeners who are heading to holiday gatherings with family and friends who may have some very different political views? Is there a story core or one small step recipe for productive and meaningful conversations?

[Dave Isay]

So one small step is not we don't do family members, although we're thinking about starting again like we because the whole theory behind One Small Step and the original ideas about not being able to see each other as human beings. And again, going back to social psychology, like, the worst thing is that you, like, wish people are wiped off the face of the earth who you don't agree with and family members hopefully you don't feel that way about. So we never focused on that. It's always been strangers. But actually we've started to think about like it's strangers and maybe now people who have become strangers to us, you know, which is kind of a framing that makes sense. So I'm not an expert on the family dynamic stuff. There are a lot of psychologists out there who can talk about that. But I guess I would just say don't give up.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't give up. Dave, I say thank you so much for joining Offline. I love this idea. I want to try it now. You can sign me up for a once more conversation.

[Dave Isay]

We'll do that. Maybe you can get an episode out of it. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Great. Thank you so much for joining. Thanks for what you're doing and take care.

[Dave Isay]

Thanks, John. Have a great holiday.

[Jon Favreau]

One quick housekeeping note. A new episode of our YouTube exclusive series Liberal Tears just dropped. In this one, Brian Tyler Cohen and Tommy Vitor ranked Trump's Cabinet picks, meaning they've now done more vetting than Senate Republicans ever did. Catch the episode on the pod save America YouTube page. And while you're there, subscribe for the video versions of the podcast, plus tons of great content from the hosts you know and love Search liberal tears T I E R s on your nearest YouTube search bar. That's our show for this week. As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, please email [e-mail] and don't forget to follow us at Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. To watch full episodes of Offline, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel and please take the time to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Iluk. Frank Jordan Cantor is our sound editor. Charlotte Landis is our engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, Reed Sherland and Adrian Hill for production support and to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Delon Villanueva, who film and share our episodes episodes as videos every week.

[Angelina Jolie]

Variety raves Maria is absolute perfection and Entertainment Weekly hail Academy Award winner Angelina Jolie brings tragedy and triumph to the last days of opera singer Maria Callas.

[Dave Isay]

Finally, I am in control and critics agree.

[Angelina Jolie]

It's a towering tour de force performance from Angelina Jolie and a career best.

[Dave Isay]

My life is opera. There is no reason in Opera Maria.

[Angelina Jolie]

Directed by Pablo Laray for your consideration. Now playing at select theaters and on Netflix December 11th.

[Dave Isay]

So many options for toilet paper, quintuple ply. This roll is titanium in forest. This one is made from elderly trees. Is that good? Just grab Angel Soft. It's simple, soft and strong and for any budget. Angel soft, soft and strong.

[Jon Favreau]

Simple.