Could Blowing Up Google Save The Internet? Plus MAGA's Birth Obsession and Your Questions Answered

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau: Episode Summary
Title: Could Blowing Up Google Save The Internet? Plus MAGA's Birth Obsession and Your Questions Answered
Release Date: April 24, 2025
Host: Jon Favreau and Max Fisher
Produced by: Crooked Media
Description: This episode delves into the ramifications of the ongoing antitrust battles against Google, explores the psychological impacts of social media disengagement, examines the intertwining of MAGA ideology with tech regulation, and dissects the rise of the pronatalist movement within right-wing circles. Additionally, the hosts engage with listener questions, offering insights into historical moments and contemporary social issues.

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1. Antitrust Battles Against Google

Overview:
Jon and Max discuss Google's recent setbacks in antitrust litigation, highlighting the potential consequences for both the company and the broader internet landscape.

Key Points:

• Third Antitrust Loss: Google lost its third antitrust case in 18 months, with a federal judge in Virginia ruling that the company operated an illegal monopoly in the digital advertising market (04:01). This aligns with previous rulings in 2023 and August 2024 that found Google in violation of antitrust laws related to app distribution and search monopoly.

• Potential Breakup: The Justice Department is urging a judge to consider breaking up Google, recommending the sale of Chrome. The judge has three weeks to issue a ruling on this matter (04:01).

• Opportunity for Google: Max posits that these legal challenges could push Google to refocus on product innovation rather than monopolistic practices. He cites Google's historical product successes like Gmail (2004), Google Maps (2005), and Android (2008), suggesting that without monopolistic leverage, Google might return to prioritizing consumer-centric product development (05:05, 05:25).

• Remedies Proposed:

  • Default Search Engine: Preventing Google from securing deals where it is the default search engine on devices like iPhones.
  • Data Sharing: Mandating Google to share its extensive search data with rival companies for the next decade to level the playing field (07:08, 07:49).

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "I think this is a big opportunity for Google. They might have to go back to centering their business on making products for people that will attract consumers on the merit or improving existing products." (05:25)

• Jon Favreau: "If leveraging monopolistic tools is taken away, Google is going to have to make good ones, which I think they can do." (06:45)

2. Impact of Deleting Social Media

Overview:
The hosts examine a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research on the psychological benefits of deactivating Facebook and Instagram.

Key Points:

• Study Findings:

  • Individuals who deactivated Facebook or Instagram six weeks before the 2020 presidential election reported being happier and less anxious compared to those who didn’t.
  • The positive effects were most significant for people over 35 (Facebook) and women under 25 (Instagram) (22:44).

• Magnitude of Impact:

  • The improvement equates to approximately 1/5 the effect of undergoing therapy.
  • For ages 18-24, the psychological improvement from a six-week social media break accounted for 1/6 of the nationwide increase in distress from 2008 to 2022 (24:15, 24:59).

• Behavioral Insights:

  • Users replacing social media time didn’t switch to other platforms like TikTok but instead increased web browsing, suggesting a genuine desire to disconnect rather than merely shift platforms (27:31).

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "This scale of what they found I think is really striking… it's a brief break, it's really short if you are a lifelong user." (24:15)

• Jon Favreau: "The outdoor walks for me are still happening… I just didn't have anything in my ears and was just walking around and it was great." (64:19)

3. MAGA's Influence on Antitrust and Tech Regulation

Overview:
Jon and Max explore the Trump administration’s persistence with antitrust cases initially pursued during the Biden era, analyzing the motivations and implications behind this continuity.

Key Points:

• Unexpected Continuity: Contrary to expectations that the Trump administration would relax antitrust pressures on big tech, it has continued aggressively pursuing these cases (17:05).

• Trump's Motives:

  • Bias Against Google: Trump has publicly criticized Google for allegedly biasing search results against him, reflecting a broader narrative of big tech censorship (18:35, 18:58).

• Authoritarian Tendencies:

  • Mike Davis's Statements: Davis questions why Trump isn't intervening in Meta's antitrust trials, hinting at a strategy to leverage post-trial outcomes for negotiation power (21:23).
  • Calls for Supreme Court Dissolution: Right-wing figures advocate for dismantling the Supreme Court or declaring it illegitimate, demonstrating a shift towards authoritarianism (30:31, 30:43).

• Feedback Loop Dynamics: The interplay between Trump’s rhetoric, right-wing online communities, and officials like Andrew Wheeler fosters a feedback loop that undermines democratic institutions (32:15).

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau: "So, what about what Democrats did? Right? And so there's a, you know, I saw Maxwell Frost talking to one of the dumbest Fox hosts on the network..." (38:37)

• Max Fisher: "Dictatorship has a real popular base… we want to think of it in our minds as something that happens to us." (32:15)

4. Rise of the Pronatalist Movement in Right-Wing Circles

Overview:
The discussion shifts to the emerging pronatalist policies advocated by the White House influenced by far-right groups, examining their implications on gender roles and societal structures.

Key Points:

• Policy Proposals:

  • Baby Bonuses: $5,000 incentives for every American mother after delivering a child.
  • Fulbright Quotas: Scholarships reserved exclusively for married individuals, enforcing traditional marital structures.
  • Menstrual Education Programs: Government initiatives aimed at educating women about their menstrual cycles (43:02).

• Underlying Motives: These policies are designed to reinforce traditional gender hierarchies, limiting women's autonomy over reproductive choices to compel higher birth rates (47:07).

• Cultural Influences:

  • White Nationalism & Evangelicalism: Longstanding ideologies promoting higher birth rates within specific demographics.
  • Manosphere & Tradwife Culture: Modern online movements advocating for traditional gender roles and increased procreation.

• Critique of Policies:

  • Reinforcement of Gender Roles: While individual policies like baby bonuses may seem beneficial, collectively they aim to compel women into specific roles, undermining personal autonomy.
  • Economic Implications: Trump's economic policies, tied to pronatalism, disproportionately disadvantage women by devaluing the dollar, suppressing consumption, and manipulating immigration to enforce gender-dependent economic structures (48:14).

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "These are not actually policies that improve birth rates… they reinforce traditional gender hierarchies and traditional gender roles where women don't work and instead their role is to produce lots of babies." (47:42)

• Jon Favreau: "We think what's happening is, it's similar to QAnon… but part of this larger, like, making America healthy again movement." (43:26)

5. Technology and AI in Social Interactions

Overview:
The hosts discuss the launch of Clulee, an AI-powered assistant for virtual interactions, highlighting concerns about the dehumanization of communication.

Key Points:

• Clulee's Functionality:

  • Described as an "undetectable AI-powered assistant" designed to assist in virtual meetings and sales calls.
  • Claims to provide real-time responses by observing screen activity and hearing audio inputs (52:31).

• Ethical Concerns:

  • The manifesto's encouragement to "cheat" parallels historical acceptance of tools like calculators and spellcheck, but raises questions about authenticity in human interactions.
  • Public backlash and ridicule suggest societal resistance to outsourcing interpersonal skills to AI (53:05, 54:37).

• Human Connection:

  • Max emphasizes the importance of genuine human interaction, criticizing features like auto-prompt responses in Gmail and iMessage as undermining authentic communication (53:39, 54:09).

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "Once we start outsourcing everyday interpersonal interactions to the machines, it's kind of over for us as a species." (54:09)

• Jon Favreau: "It sounds good, but it's really like, you know, Wally when they're in those chairs, and everything is automated for them." (54:45)

6. Listener Questions and Responses

Overview:
Jon and Max engage with listener-submitted questions, providing thoughtful and humorous responses to foster community interaction.

Key Questions Addressed:

1. Historical Moments for Signal Chat:
   Question: "Is there a moment in history or world events when you wish you could have been there and accidentally added to the signal chat?" (56:15)
   Responses:

   • Max: Chooses the 1986 Reykjavik Summit between Gorbachev and Reagan, highlighting the potential for nuclear disarmament if only technological constraints like Signal chats were present.
   • Jon: References January 6th, expressing curiosity about internal communications among Republican leaders during the event.

2. Teaching Middle Schoolers to Reduce Phone Use:
   Question: "I need a more convincing argument for middle schoolers to get off their phones in class." (56:15)
   Responses:

   • Jon: Advocates for highlighting the benefits of being present, such as better friendships, improved focus, and reduced anxiety, rather than solely focusing on the negatives of phone use.
   • Max: Suggests emphasizing what students gain by disconnecting, like enhanced social interactions and mental well-being.

3. Engaging with Nature and Outdoor Activities:
   Question: "Are the outdoor walks still happening? Any other touching grass, getting outside, enjoying animals moments?" (64:12)
   Responses:

   • Jon: Shares personal experiences of taking walks without distractions, noting improved mental clarity and relaxation.

4. New York Times Games and Spiritual Analogies:
   Question: "What games do you play, and if transubstantiated, what would be your wine and bread?" (56:15, 59:40)
   Responses:

   • Jon and Max: Offer playful answers, referencing historical events and personal preferences like Sauvignon Blanc and popovers.

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "God bless our listeners." (60:12)

• Jon Favreau: "I was there for all the economic crisis stuff, but it was pretty dry and we gotta figure this out." (58:23)

7. Closing Remarks and Positive News

Overview:
Despite the heavy topics, Jon and Max conclude the episode with uplifting stories and encouragement for community engagement.

Key Points:

• Positive Local Efforts:

  • Highlighting grassroots movements and local organizing that energize and inspire political participation (67:14).

• Community Actions:

  • Mention of Derek Guy, a fashion influencer who orchestrated real-life interactions to resolve online disagreements, showcasing innovative community-building efforts (69:08).

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau: "Everyone should know about it. And I think too many people still aren't paying attention or at least sufficiently alarmed." (67:14)

• Max Fisher: "This is some upworthy." (66:42)

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Conclusion

In this episode, Jon Favreau and Max Fisher navigate complex issues surrounding antitrust laws, the psychological effects of social media, the rise of authoritarian tendencies within political movements, and the ethical implications of integrating AI into daily interactions. Through insightful discussions and engaging listener interactions, they provide a comprehensive exploration of how technology and politics intertwine to shape our societal landscape.

Notable Overall Quotes:

• Max Fisher: "Dictatorship has a real popular base… we want to think of it in our minds as something that happens to us." (32:15)

• Jon Favreau: "The outdoor walks for me are still happening… I just didn't have anything in my ears and was just walking around and it was great." (64:19)

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Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Max Fisher]

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[Max Fisher]

Julia went with some friends to a Lutheran service and the pastor at one point called up all the kids for the children's liturgy. And he kept saying, God bless and keep you safe, especially on the Internet. And literally every time he would address a kid, he would say, look at this beautiful child. God bless you and keep you safe, especially on the Internet.

[Jon Favreau]

Come on. Offline.

[Max Fisher]

I think he's a listener.

[Jon Favreau]

Julia should have grabbed them. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Max Fisher]

I'm Max Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

Max, we got some news to cover that's both somewhat promising and typically dystopian. But after that, we're going to answer some of your questions, listeners, which we haven't done in a while.

[Max Fisher]

And they had some crazy ones. Crazy ones, which do say as a.

[Jon Favreau]

Compliment, but I know those questions are going to help us end on a high note.

[Max Fisher]

They are.

[Jon Favreau]

They're really fun. That was our goal. But first we got a. A new study about the impact of deleting social media. That's a rose.

[Max Fisher]

Yep.

[Jon Favreau]

Mag is online reaction to Trump's latest loss at the Supreme Court. Definite thorn.

[Max Fisher]

It's a thorn.

[Jon Favreau]

And our first topic, the government's legal fight against big tech, which seems like a bud.

[Max Fisher]

I would say that that is the. That's the pot of water in which we're putting the roses. If I can extend this metaphor in wild new directions.

[Jon Favreau]

And why not? It's our show this time. We're talking about Google, which has had a rough couple of weeks in court. Last Thursday, the Internet search Giant lost its third antitrust case in 18 months. Huge when a federal judge in Virginia ruled that the company operated an illegal Monopol in the digital advertising market. That result joins a 2023 epic ruling that found Google violated antitrust laws by maintaining a monopoly over app distribution on Android devices and August 2024's ruling that found Google had broken antitrust laws to build a search monopoly. On Monday, that ruling led the Justice Department to ask a federal judge to break up the $1.81 trillion company with the recommendation that the company sell Chrome, its popular search web browser. That judge now has roughly three weeks to issue their ruling and determine the fate of one of the Internet's most important companies. We've touched on some of these rulings before. Now with a third antitrust Loss and the Justice Department actively asking a judge to break up the company. Do we think Google's.

[Max Fisher]

So I genuinely think this is going to sound contrarian. I really mean it. I think this is a big opportunity for Google. I think it could be really good for them. Like, we can get a little bit into what these rulings mean for Google and therefore for the Internet and therefore for everybody listening to this. Because like you said, Google lost these cases. We're now at like the equivalent of the sentencing damages.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

But I think this could be good for Google in a way because their business, as the DOJ showed in these trials, has come to center on monopolistic exploitation of consumers over the years. That's the core of their business now. And because of this, if the enforcement mechanisms are any good, which it seems very likely they're going to be, based on what we've heard from the judges so far, Google is going to have to go back to centering their business on making products for people that will attract consumers on the merit or improving existing products, which they used to be really, really good at. That's how they got to this place. Like, let me list some names and some dates for you. Google search launched in 1997, Gmail launched in 2004 and is now the mail app that everybody uses. Google Maps in 2005, I maintain the best invention ever on the intern Internet. Google Maps is amazing. Google Docs we use for this show, 2006, Google Translate also 2006, Android, 2008, Waymo 2010. What do you notice about those dates? It's all in the 2000s. It's like 20 years ago. They made all these amazing products, conquered the Internet business, conquered our attention, and now turned that into a monopoly. And I think that if they no longer have access to those monopolistic enforcement tools they can use to force us onto their services, they're going to have to make good ones, which I think they can do.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, let's hope so. What are they? So there's, I think there's three broad sort of fixes.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

They're asking for here. And one is to prevent them from making deals where Google is the default search engine on a host of devices like our iPhones.

[Max Fisher]

Yep. They're asking Google to stop paying Apple and Samsung to make Google the default on phones to sell Chrome because Chrome uses default Google Search to stop making Google apps mandatory on Android phones, and for Google to give out all of its search data to other rival search companies for the next 10 years.

[Jon Favreau]

Now, what do you think about that part, that's the one that Google is trying to fight the hardest, apparently.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

And they're saying there are privacy concerns, national security concerns. Of course this is coming from Google, so it's hard to know. But I was as, I was like reading through some of the different remedies that the judge is considering, I'm like, that is a, that's a big one.

[Max Fisher]

I know. And the judge has been talking about it a lot too. And he keeps bringing it up in a way that suggests that he is maybe going to enforce it or some version of it. So the idea behind it is both that the word, the term of art is fruits, that this is the like the thing that Google got through its monopoly was all of this data. So therefore because it's ill gotten, they have to share it with other companies out of fairness. The idea is also that they need to, to do this in order to level the playing field so that it's possible for other companies to launch competing search companies. Because even if they take all these steps to remove Google as the search on your web browser like Chrome and on your phones and everything they still control, everybody has a habit of using Google search all the time. And Google has all of this data that allows them to target their ads and their searches. So you have to. The idea, what DOJ is saying is Google has to share that data with other companies, give everyone who's starting from zero today or bang, where you're starting from pretty close to zero access to that data so that they can launch a search tool that is competitive and can actually win over some consumers.

[Jon Favreau]

And the argument from DOJ here is if you don't share the data right then Google is always going to have a massive advantage on any competitor. That's right, because they have all the data. And then so which is why people use then the search is better, right? Because they have more data. So if someone's starting from scratch and they don't have the data, like maybe they're going to build like Google was, you know, a couple decades ago. But they're never going to get to the size of Google or they're never going to be able to compete with Google because Google has all the data. Now one argument I noticed that they're using that Google's using against that is what about OpenAI? What about ChatGPT?

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And that is has now a pretty healthy effective search function and they don't have all of Google's data. And so isn't the market competitive? And isn't chatgpt evidence that the market is competitive.

[Max Fisher]

Right. And initially, under Biden, the DOJ was pushing for Google to also divest from any AI tools that could function as search. And the Trump DOJ dropped that. It's the only major thing that they've dropped from this case. But they. The idea is that they still want Google to be able to compete in search. But I think it's worth, like, taking a step back and asking, like, why do we care about this and what does this actually mean for, like, the Internet and search and for consumers?

[Jon Favreau]

I like having Chrome on my phone.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know if tomorrow they were like, well, it's not going to be the default. I'd be like, well, I'll make it my default.

[Max Fisher]

I would, too. Exactly. I would, I would. I would not set Bing, no disrespect to Microsoft as the default search. Like, I like Chrome. I'm going to continue to use Chrome at the same time. As you and I have discussed many times, and as everybody has noticed, search sucks now. It gets worse every day. The results are less helpful. You have to further back. There are more and more ads. That's why the results are so much worse. There's this mandatory AI junk at the top. And that.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is really bad.

[Max Fisher]

I know it's not.

[Jon Favreau]

I think Gemini sucks. Gemini is their AI function that now pops up every. Those who don't know. I don't know why it would. Because they're a monopoly. But if you search, Gemini comes up at the top. Yeah, no chatgpt. I use it now. It's much, much better for searching.

[Max Fisher]

Really? Are you using the deep research tool that Lovett talked about last week?

[Jon Favreau]

I haven't had any occasion to do deep research, Max. I do my own research. Artificial intelligence, you know, like, love it is. You know, he's just. All his takes are researched by ChatGPT. Not me.

[Max Fisher]

That's right, not me.

[Jon Favreau]

You get yours from going line by line through the New York Times, the Washington Post, everywhere else. And I'm just compiling it all and then, you know, using what's between my ears here. That's.

[Max Fisher]

That's the National Archives looking at the raw data, mostly microfiche.

[Jon Favreau]

You got microfiche? Does anyone listening know what microfiche is?

[Max Fisher]

Oh, man, that's really. That's one for the elder millennials right there. Microfiche and watching Transformers and Sunday morning cartoons. So the, the idea what DOJ wants to do all this is not like DOJ is not just functioning as like a traffic cop here. And that's kind of how Google wants to pay them is like, oh, you're just trying to wrap us on the knuckles because you didn't like the way that we conduct a business. The goal of all of this is to create a regulated market that will function in a way that provides everybody with better search, whether that's Google or somebody else. And because Google has this monopoly on search right now, because you and I have this habit that we've developed with it, and because it's, you know, the default on all of these tools, Google doesn't have to make search better to make everybody use it. And also, even if someone designed a better search tool, you know, if someone at Microsoft had a great idea, someone had a startup that they could launch that would be much better search, they would never be able to capture the market because Google has all of these illegal monopolistic behaviors like bribing Apple and Samsung to make their search default, that makes it impossible for those companies to rig in. So the way that all of these pieces of all these remedies are supposed to fit together is that if someone has an idea for a better search function, whether that person works at Google or at a competitor, they will be incentivized to actually try that and to bring that to market because you're going to have to capture consumers attention that way.

[Jon Favreau]

What do you, what kind of impact do you think the sale of Google Chrome would have? So not just it's no longer the default browser, which it also seems like, that's the one point where Google seems more willing to give.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

But selling it completely, just spinning it off. What kind of impact do you think that would have on the Internet and our use cases?

[Max Fisher]

I think that it makes sense to look at that in conjunction with the other big Google antitrust case, which is their ad tech sales, which is something that like you and I don't interact with much as consumers. It might seem opaque to most people, but like it's a little more technical. But basically the entire web publishing economy runs through Google. If you have any sort of website that is supported by ads, whether you're a major news company or you're just someone who runs recipes on your like personal blog spot, the ads that are there are purchased or sold, sorry, through Google's Exchange and they're installed on the website through Google. So because they control every part of that business, they control all the ads. So they're able to squeeze and extort a lot from consumers on that. But what this has to do with Chrome is the fact that Google has so many parts of their business now that are just kind of like, like passive income. They're just kind of like, you know, a vending machine that like spits out money regularly. And I think the key thing is that by selling those off, probably Chrome doesn't change very much. I think it would basically be the same app, probably with the same people working on it. But Google as a whole, by losing this ad tech monopoly and by losing this browser that gets them a search monopoly, would have to start, like I was saying earlier, developing new things, making other shit. Yeah. Which again, I would love for them to do. Like I am rooting for Google to continue succeeding and making cool stuff like I the waymo cars around and it's like, hey, Google is good at making stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

And taking away these easy wins that they have through monopolistic exploitation forces them to do that.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

We touched on this briefly last week when we were talking about Facebook's antitrust trial. But what have you made of the Trump administration continuing these antitrust cases from the Biden administration? Are they doing the right thing for the right reasons or the wrong reasons? Or how much does that even matter?

[Max Fisher]

You know, I have to be honest, I'm actually not totally sure why I like, I don't have a theory of the case for why Trump is continuing to allow his DOJ and FTC to push so hard on the Biden era antitrust stuff. Because I thought he was going to do the opposite. I really thought this was going to be another area of Trump corruption where he was going to come in, cut deals with all of these companies. You know, when all of these tech CEOs were up there at the fucking dais with him at the inauguration. Including CEO. Yes. He doesn't get a lot of flack for it, although he should because he was up there. I thought, I know what's going to happen. They're going to cut these deals where they're going to, you know, become MAGA culture warriors and they're going to skew the algorithms, they're going to pay them off somehow and then in exchange he is going to kill the trials. Because that's just like what Trump does, right? It's all just about short term exploitation. And then the fact that he did this authoritarian takeover of the FTC where he fired illegally, the two Democratic commissioners on it, I was like, it's over. He's gonna kill all these trials as soon as he can get the payout and he hasn't. And I'm actually curious if you have a read for why that is, because I am at a little bit of a loss.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm going with right thing for wrong reasons. And the wrong reason is, I think we talked about this during the campaign. Maybe we did on psa. I can't remember anymore. But remember, Trump was interviewed about Google antitrust case. And he was like, well, I don't like him because every time I, every time I go on Google, there's bad. And you search for me, there's bad stories about me.

[Max Fisher]

I remember.

[Jon Favreau]

So he thinks that the search function is biased against him.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Which we can laugh about. But it is part of the bigger case against big tech from the right, which is that it's all a bunch of libs in Silicon Valley working on these and they censor, you know, conservative opinions and they're with the algorithm so that all the, all the lib opinions come up and all the best, you know. So I think it's, it's possible that at least in Trump's mind, this is just going after big tech. And, and then I think Andrew Wheeler, who's the FTC commissioner that Trump picked, is just an antitrust hawk.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And has been for a while.

[Max Fisher]

Like on the merits, right?

[Jon Favreau]

On the merits, yeah. So it could be a, could be a combination.

[Max Fisher]

I do think it is really important when you were trying to analyze Trump's decision making, not to underrate, that he's stupid. And I'm not saying that to be rude, although I'm very happy to be rude to Trump. But I do think that it's like, it's a weird thing where like mainstream media, which I know I tend to be like a knee jerk defender of, like, they can't call Trump stupid because of journalistic norms, but he is like, we're seeing that with tariffs, where it's like he's imposing these tariffs because he doesn't understand what a trade deficit is. It's like a really important part of understanding the whole of what he's doing.

[Jon Favreau]

Stupid. Misinformed. Misinformed because he and his staff are ensconced in a right wing bubble full of misinformation and very resistant to changing his mind, I was just going to say. And set in his ways at nearly 80 years old, which is.

[Max Fisher]

Right. A very common thing for men of his age. And I think that that is why a lot of these tech guys thought what they were going to be able to do is they thought that like, okay, Trump term won. Like you were saying, we were MAGA enemy number one, we were cultural enemy, and we're just going to go all in for Trump and then he's going to see that we're on his side, we're helping him and he's going to quit Pro colas. But he just never got out of his head. Big tech is against me. So even Though they're no longer against him. In fact, they're really putting their thumbs on the scale on his behalf. He just can't break himself from. There's also. Did you see this Mike Davis quote about the antitrust trials?

[Jon Favreau]

I saw the one. I, I read the one he said about Zuckerberg taking his pants down in the Oval Office. That was last week. Right. Is there another one?

[Max Fisher]

He's got another. There's no pants in this one, thankfully. Yeah, everybody has their clothes on in this one. So this is Mike Davis, who is a very Trump aligned lawyer and advisor.

[Jon Favreau]

He's a lunatic and is also ludicrous.

[Max Fisher]

That's true, I felt implied.

[Jon Favreau]

One of the more dangerous legal lunatics in the Trump orbit.

[Max Fisher]

Absolutely. So he was asked about. This was about the Meta antitrust trials. But what he is describing, I think extends to all. And someone was asking him, a politico, you know, why is it that Trump is not intervening in this Meta trial, given how much Meta is doing for Trump? And Mike Davis said, quote, why would the President give away all of his negotiation power before the trial? Why wouldn't he wait until after the trial when you can get a massive verdict against Facebook and then you have the negotiating power. If you do it before the trial, that's not, not the art of the deal. Now he might just be making this up.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

Off of, you know, the top of his head, it may just be that Trump is not engaged in this. Maybe he doesn't understand the trials, but he is at least trying to incept into Trump the idea that you do sell out corruptly. But you wait until, you know, which.

[Jon Favreau]

Is, you know, not ethical advice, but certainly good advice. Probably.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Although it's good advice to a corrupt authoritarian.

[Max Fisher]

Right. Although, you know, once we get to the point where a judge issues the remedies, I don't know if it's in Trump's hands anymore.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's probably not.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Although I also know that we thought the TikTok ban wasn't letter of the law too. And a Supreme Court. And a Supreme Court decision and an act of Congress, but we're just passing on.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

All right. In other news, a new study published in the National Bureau of Economic Research found that people who deactivated Facebook or Instagram in the six weeks leading up to the 2020 presidential election were notably happier and less anxious than a control group who did not. The study also found that the effect of deleting Facebook was most pronounced in people over the age of 35 and the effect of deleting Instagram was most pronounced in women under the age of 25. First blush, you read this conclusion, you're like no shit, of course, right, yes. But why, why do you think this is significant or do you think it's significant?

[Max Fisher]

I do. I mean and it's confirmation of things that we both suspected and have known for other research. What makes this study new and different is first, it's the scale of it is unprecedented. This is part of a huge years long study into the consequences of deactivating Facebook and Instagram during the 2020 election. We had Josh Tucker on like a year and a half ago to talk about the first tranches of that research coming out. This is one of the last pieces of it. They also have access to internal metadata which is the first time that's happened. So we know not just on a huge scale of thousands as we haven't before, but we're able to track the activity on the platform corresponding with real world behavior. So it's just much stronger conclusion. This scale of what they found I think is really striking. It's not enormous scale, it's not life changing. But this is also a six week deactivation is really short if you are a lifelong user.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean for me it would be a couple lifetimes. But.

[Max Fisher]

Yes, we'll never know. But um, but it's a very. It's a brief break. It's a really brief break. So I would keep that in mind. But one of the things they found is that the, the improvement in well being for people who took that little break from Facebook and Instagram was equivalent to 1/5 the effect of going to therapy. Not just the effect of going to therapy for a few weeks, but of being in therapy generally. Yeah. And it's much cheaper than that. They also found. I thought this was really interesting. The well being improvement was higher for Republicans than for Democrats, which I thought was a really striking confirmation that the platform is more distorting and more impactful if you are right wing.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And probably makes you angrier and more afraid, right?

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

At least in the lead up to the 2020 election. Who knows, who knows where we are now?

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, no, they all seem fine. They all seem really chill and fine. Something this stat also really floored me. So for people age 18 to 24, the Psychological Improvement for taking a break from social media was equivalent to 1/6 of the total nationwide increase in psychological distress for that age group between 2008 and 2022.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh my gosh.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. So the implication of that is that the total rise in anxiety among young people over the last 15 years, 1/6 of that is equivalent to just a few weeks on social media apps. And you were just, you were never gonna find stronger confirmation of the, like, Jonathan Haidt theory that it's the phones that are making kids anxious.

[Jon Favreau]

I, When I first heard about the study, I think I said to you guys that, you know, my first reaction was like, oh, six weeks before the 2020 election. Like, is there a bad part of this? Which is that people aren't as informed because we're like, leading up to election. And then I was like, prepping for the pod last night. I'm like, wait a minute, you idiot. People could just get their news from any of the other news sources that aren't media. Yes, right. Which is because, you know, we. We have seen after the 2024 election, the people who, you know, Kamala Harris did best with, people who paid attention to the news and consumed both traditional and digital media.

[Max Fisher]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

Met legacy media outlets, new media outlets, and Trump won slightly among people who got most of their news from social media and people who didn't pay attention to much news at all. He won by the largest margin of all the different groups.

[Max Fisher]

So there was actually a. A recent paper from this same study actually looked into exactly this and found that people who deactivated social media were slightly less up on the news, but they were also less misinformed, and they were less prone to believe misinformation and conspiracies. It did not reduce their overall rate of real world political participation, whether that was attending an event, voting, and it made them slightly less likely to vote for Trump.

[Jon Favreau]

That's. That's all great news.

[Max Fisher]

Yes, I know. It's all right. And, and something else I thought was really interesting. In this study, they were able to track what people did with their extra time from quitting Facebook and Instagram. They stayed on their phone, unfortunately. They did, like, fill that with other screen time. I would have thought they would have replaced Facebook and Instagram with other social media apps. They didn't. They mostly used.

[Jon Favreau]

They had the choice to, but they just didn't.

[Max Fisher]

Yes, they used their web browser instead. Was by far the thing they were likeliest to replace it with. Very distantly followed by YouTube and then Twitter. And then way, way down the list was TikTok, which they barely switched to at all. I thought was interesting. Like, people aren't switching from, like, Marlboros to Camels. They're just quitting smoking outright, which I think is further confirmation that if you give people even the slightest break from these apps, they want to stay off of them.

[Jon Favreau]

Or is TikTok Camels or is TikTok Marlboros? Because I don't. There's a good argument. There's an argument there.

[Max Fisher]

Which. Which cigarette is Chow Hongshu? The Little Red Book app have been going crazy on. I'm doing. I'm doing the show is doing really good numbers over there.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of wanting to delete all social media, not sure if you noticed the online right's reaction to the Supreme Court's emergency ruling over the weekend.

[Max Fisher]

Very scary.

[Jon Favreau]

I briefly mentioned this on Pod Save America, but masks are really just coming off. The guy who runs the Federalist said that the President is obligated to ignore the Supreme Court and, quote, put it in its place.

[Max Fisher]

That's psychopath stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep. MAGA pundit Jesse Kelly said the court should be dissolved and anyone who tries to enforce their rulings should be arrested.

[Max Fisher]

My God.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. And this stuff also filters up to the electeds. A Republican congressman tweeted that Trump should be like Bukele, the self described world's coolest dictator of El Salvador, and fire any judges that don't rule his way. He said it's time to clean house here too. Another Republican congressman tweeted about the Supreme Court's ruling against Trump, quote, let them enforce it Then in a Trump White House official posted on Truth Social that the court has been, quote, the Supreme Court, including he specified the three Trump appointees, has been, quote, infected with a parasitic ideology as a White House staffer. Wow. The White House liaison to the Department of Homeland Security. Yes.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, my God.

[Jon Favreau]

Not great, huh?

[Max Fisher]

Yeah. You can really see, just like you were saying, you can really see the interplay between the people in power and the shitposters online. Like, I think it's important like this. You see one individual post and you're like, this is shit posting. This is someone who's just like, mad at the Supreme Court or is a psychopath or both. And it just. But, like, these are overt calls for authoritarianism. And something I feel like I have been trying to emphasize since, like 2016, when we first started this global pull towards, like, elected strongman populism is that dictatorship has a real popular base. Like, we want to think of it in our minds as something that happens to us.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's like taken by force and the people don't want it.

[Max Fisher]

Exactly.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Max Fisher]

You wake up one morning and there are tanks in the street and the President declared themselves ruler for life and canceled all the elections. But the way that it works is that there's. It's always a minority, but there is a real, legitimate popular base imploring the leader to take these autocratic steps to dismantle the most basic elements of our democracy and rule of law. Social media obviously gives a big platform and voice for these people. And there are people who are clearly in power who are looking for that. And I think it's the role of the Internet here is helping to connect those two. This nut job who is. You said it was a White House liaison to dhs. Right. That person on their own, they were already gonna be a psychopath. What they have now the opportunity to broadcast both to hear from the far right online maga craziest who want a Trump dictatorship to hear that and then to echo back to them, we're here, we're in power and you know, so keep sounding off and they kind of have this interplay back and forth to create this sense of a consensus.

[Jon Favreau]

And I, I think never before have has the federal government, the White House been influenced and their policy making shaped by like an online fever swamp. Right, right. Like it's just going right up to the electeds and we have posters in charge. The President, the Vice President.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Elon Musk.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And now they're swimming in this and they got, they're seeing the crazies, but the crazies to them probably seem like, oh, this is what people want, not right. And this is what we're getting now. I also like thinking about this whole, you know, the disappearing to El Salvador and how the Trump administration is treating the Abrego Garcia case, which they are using social media, the right wing media, Fox, everything to just try this man in the court of public opinion.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And which is the Internet now.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And it's it to me it mirrored during the campaign or just before the campaign. Trump trying to plead his innocence of all the convict of all the crimes that he was charged with in the court of public opinion. So it really, at some point the Trump strategy was like forget about the courtroom, forget about the jurors, forget about what the judge says, forget about them convicting him, giving him a sentence in the Manhattan case, all the other ones. Well, we're just going to do do is we're going to try this in the court of public opinion and we have this propaganda machine and we have the social media and we're just going to either convince people he's innocent or just so enough doubt about him. And now they're doing the same thing now that they're in power. They're like the courts, forget the courts, forget juries, forget due process, forget all this stuff. What we're going to do is just make this a case about this Guy is an MS.13 gang member who's violent. We're going to tell you he is. And we're going to have all this. We don't. Whatever evidence that we're not offering up in court. Right. Because if it was real, they would offer it up in court. Government's doing none of that, hasn't offered any of this evidence about Abrego Garcia in court. And the judges have asked and they said, no, we don't have anything.

[Max Fisher]

They don't even want.

[Jon Favreau]

And so then they just talk about it on air and then they make it true.

[Max Fisher]

And I think when they say ms.13, I don't even think they really mean ms.13. I think what they mean is look at this guy, look at the color of his skin. You don't want him in your neighborhood if you are one of our true believers. And I think you're right about wanting the court of public opinion. I think it's not just like a comm strategy and not just a political strategy. I think that there is a real belief at the core of MAGA ism and you see this in all popular authoritarian movements that the only legitimate source of power is the leader and his supporters. Yep, that's it. And so when they, even when they think about the court of public opinion, it's a jury that only includes Trump supporters because those are the only legitimate voices in American society are people who already agree with us. And I think something that is one of the many things that is scary about this moment is that Trump's popular base is really shrinking right now because he decided to blow up the national and to some extent global economy for basically no good reason, which has made him less popular. Which means the people who are sticking with him are the people who are not there because they're concerned about inflation or the price of, you know, groceries. It's the people who are there because they want the racism, they want the police state, they want the authoritarianism. So I think they're belief, even though there's not like a legal theory behind this and there's no like court strategy behind this.

[Jon Favreau]

No, it's a governing strategy.

[Max Fisher]

It's a governing strategy and I think it's, it's a sincerely felt ideology among the MAGA far right, both in power and online, that the only source of power that matters is the support of true real Americans, which means our supporters, which means people who are maga. So I think that's why they're only speaking to them.

[Jon Favreau]

It's self fulfilling. It's like a perpetuating feedback loop here.

[Max Fisher]

Right. And I think part of what's dangerous about the like Frog boy foiling of it is, I think to some extent, at least initially, when Trump says like, you know, rulings that go against us are illegitimate, judges who go against us aren't real judges and they should be impeached. You know, does he mean that literally or is he just saying, you know, I don't consider them to be real Americans because they go against me? Well, I don't know, it might just be like he likes to throw stuff like that out. But when that gets bounced back and forth, forth in this feedback loop between him, his supporters online and a lot of the people in his government who were term one supporters, people who were like 23 year old young Republicans during his first term and are now, you know, 28 year olds in positions of like somewhat power that gets magnified into. No, we actually need to remove judges who don't side with us. Which is something that has, I think it's like close to majority support among Republican voters. It's not high, but it could be high enough. And it's, every time you have a cycle like this, people hear more about it. You know, they start to, they see it online, then they hear Trump say something, then they hear someone in Trump's orbit say something, and then, you know, some far right member of Congress says something, then a Fox News host says something. And if you are a supporter who might be otherwise, like, well, you like democracy and you think we should have the rule of law, it starts to feel like, well, this is the social.

[Jon Favreau]

Consensus in my cohort and they always find a. But what about what Democrats did? Right? And so there's a, you know, I saw Maxwell Frost talking to one of the dumbest Fox hosts on the network, which is something Will Kane.

[Max Fisher]

I was so curious how you're gonna end that sentence. I was like, there's so many ways this could end.

[Jon Favreau]

Will Kane is now, he's rising star.

[Max Fisher]

To be honest with you, I'm not that familiar with his.

[Jon Favreau]

He's got this daytime show now.

[Max Fisher]

And so, so he's the next Secretary.

[Jon Favreau]

Of Defense, he's the next Secretary of Defense fence. And he's yelling at Maxwell Frost about how so he has this whole exchange with Maxwell Frost where he's like, Maxwell Frost is like, oh, next it could be citizens because Trump wants to do home ground citizens. And, and well, he goes, he said, where did he say that? Just, am I just going to take your word for that? He's like, well, he said it in the Oval, he said it in a cabinet meeting, he said it at events. He's like, well, that's. You're saying that. He's like, no, you. He's like, he's like, we'll look for that clip. But I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, no, that's, that's literally like, it's, it's been said everywhere.

[Max Fisher]

No, Will Cain said that. He didn't say it, so Democrats made it up. Except also he did say it because we're gonna do it.

[Jon Favreau]

And then he came back from break and he was like, oh, here's the clip. He goes, but he's talking about the worst of the worst criminals, right? And he said, and by the way, Maxwell fraud, you had this quote from when the Supreme Court ruled that Trump was immune from prosecution. And you said, the court is illegitimate. So Democrats say the court is illegitimate, like you. So why can't we say the court is illegitimate? And of course, the difference is Democrats are like, we will abide by Supreme Court rulings. And the right is like, let's dissolve the court. Right? But they always find that what's, that's what helps their supporters. Well, it's like, I don't know if I like this, but those Democrats, same thing, power. They'll do the same thing thing.

[Max Fisher]

And they already did it and everything is fine. So of course we have to do it too, right? It's. We're not doing it, but if we were doing it, it would be good. And also Democrats did it first. And by the way, we're doing it.

[Jon Favreau]

It's fucking awful.

[Max Fisher]

But it is, it is part, I think, of this, like, back and forth exchange that, like, call and response between the people in power and the online far right, even though any one of these people is kind of inconsequential and meaningless of themselves. And also just to like, because I, we don't want to freak people out too much. For every one post from a, you know, whoever Federalist nut job that does end up getting echoed by someone empowered, there are a hundred that don't. So, like, Sha Davis is not in charge of the country. He wants us to believe that he is, but he's throwing out crazy stuff all day, every day that never goes anywhere.

[Jon Favreau]

And those two Republican congressmen I just mentioned are, are backbenchers that you've never heard of. That said, you know, J.D. vance wrote a long essay last week about how, you know, due process is getting in the way of all the deportations. And then president himself has said that, and Stephen Miller is certainly saying that. So that is scary. On the other hand, you know, Brett Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett, Neil Gorsuch, welcome to the resistance. They were part of the, they were part of the 7:2 ruling. So. But it is, it's something to watch. It's something to watch.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, I think that the, to trade it end this segment on a, like, somewhat more optimistic beat. And that's very relative. I don't want to get people's hopes up too much.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm pretty sure you're trying.

[Max Fisher]

All of these are trial balloons. They're all tests and they don't even know how sincere it is. Trump doesn't know what he's saying half of the time. He just throws it out. And you know, Vance says it partly because he means it and partly just because he's trying to get through the next news cycle to dunk on. Probably you, specifically.

[Jon Favreau]

Probably me. Probably me.

[Max Fisher]

And that what that means is that because each one is a trial balloon, that each one is responsive to feedback. In terms of popular backlash, protests, Democrats.

[Jon Favreau]

Throwing pundits who haven't gone down the rabbit hole yet.

[Max Fisher]

That's the, the, the, the handful that are left like pushing back on it. Supreme Court justices. So which is to say that it's not foregone that we are absolutely headed in this direction.

[Jon Favreau]

But it is, but it's important for people to speak up because that matters. That, that does matter. That has an impact on this whole feedback loop as well.

[Max Fisher]

That's right. And we're almost through his term anyway, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. We're ground in the bend. Yeah. On the topic of right wing Internet fever, Swamp bumps. We're gonna talk about the pronatalist movement.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, man.

[Jon Favreau]

On Monday, the New York Times reported that the White House has been soliciting policy ideas from far right voices in the pronatalist movement to encourage Americans to have more children. Among the policies proposed include well intentioned $5,000 baby bonus for every American mother after delivering a child, a misguided Fulbright scholarship reserve for married people only. So we're gonna do a quota of Fulbright scholarships now that only go to married people.

[Max Fisher]

So weird.

[Jon Favreau]

And a, a, there's a proposal for a series of government programs to educate women on their menstrual cycles.

[Max Fisher]

Are you going to the government menstruation classes?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's, it's hard to sign up. It's like a. I don't know if they have room for me.

[Max Fisher]

It's crazy because it's just sex education, which is part of public education, but they manage to make it creepy.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, they do everything else.

[Max Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

What is going on with the pronatalist movement here? I've sort of been. It's like in my periphery. And then, you know, Elon Musk is having all the cute kids and JD Vance did the childless cat ladies thing during the campaign. And then you're like, yes, supporting people who have children in this country who can't necessarily afford to have children is.

[Max Fisher]

A good thing to do. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

We like that when, when children are born, supporting them, daycare, universal prek. Health care. That's all great stuff. Pronatalist movement, though, at least on the right, has been much creepier.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. So the, the right wing pronatalist movement, which is a thing that just kind of appeared very suddenly, but does, like you're saying, pull on all of these strands. It's. It's kind of similar to QAnon, not in the extremeness of its beliefs, but similar in the sense that it was a lot of different tribes and ideas that were kind of all stewing online at the same time and all came together and converged on this one set of ideas. You've got the white nationalists who have always loved to talk about how white families need to have more babies. Homeschooling evangelicals who think that women should not and should in fact be educating and raising and having children. Both of those have been around forever. You've also got the newer elements online manosphere of young men who feel lonely and think the solution to that is to forcibly reimpose this idealized, imagined past of traditional gender norms. And then more recently, thanks to Instagram and TikTok, in large part, it seems this has extended into tradwife culture, which I'm sure we've all seen the videos, which has then itself grown into part of this larger, like, making America healthy again. Woo woo. Like organic food, but also women stay at home and raise your seven kids, who, by the way, are all white. And then there's also this like, tech weirdo, which is the Elon Musk and also kind of the J.D. vance thing, like biohacker movement that's kind of backed themselves into eugenics. Like, the idea is that, like, we're so rich and successful that we have a responsibility to procreate our genes as much as possible for the betterment of humanity, which is. Yeah, Austin is sighing. I don't. I agree with you, Austin. Which is how you get, like, Elon Musk wanting his legion of Elon Musk babies who he does not raise and wanting to create financial arrangements with his wives that they have to raise all of his kids.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. This was the part of the Elon Musk Wall Street Journal story about having all the. His legion. And you know, buried in there are a few nuggets that suggest it's not just about his concern for the falling birth rate. Right. Because he's very concerned about. Well, there's that, but it's also he's very concerned that the. According to one source in the Wall Street Journal story, that the third world birth rate is. Is rising, but in. In Europe, in the United States, it's falling. Right. So it's a specific. And that he believes because he's so intelligent. Right. That he must pass his genes on to as many people as possible. So the. The smart people in the rich countries need to be having more children.

[Max Fisher]

We need to. We quote, unquote, we need to outbreed them. Is just the oldest racial supremacist trope. It exists in. In every country, every society, for every group. And it is weird and creepy and bad. And I think it is a big part of the backbone of this.

[Jon Favreau]

And then he's got some weird thing in that. In that piece where he doesn't want any of the women who have his children to. That he wants them all to have C sections because he thinks vaginal births will shrink the brain.

[Max Fisher]

Where did he get that? I mean, where did that come from?

[Jon Favreau]

Clearly, that is. That is science.

[Max Fisher]

Right. I think if you also, if you look at where all of these policies are pointing and some of them are in isolation good things to do, like baby bonuses, otherwise known as the, you know, child tax credit.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, great, we love that.

[Max Fisher]

Great. But if you look at the totality of the picture, does not actually. These are not actually policies that improve birth rates or that increase birth rates. What they are policies that do in totality, not every one of them does in isolation is reinforce traditional gender hierarchies and traditional gender role, quote, unquote, traditional gender roles where women don't work and instead their role is to produce lots of babies. There's also a theory that I find very compelling. This is behind a lot of the Trump economics stuff is with like the reason.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, it's like you hear trade stuff, the trade stuff, the tariffs. Right. And you hear them talk about it as this like imagined nostalgia for the 50s where they always say, like, men had manufacturing jobs. It's like very masculinity coded. And also you could support a family on a single Income. Well, they're referring, they're referring to husbands, they're referring to men. And then Matthew Iglesias also had a really good post where he like went through this and he showed if you, like, look at what the Trump economic stuff is doing, you devalue the dollar, you suppress consumption, you raise low skilled immigration, which is disproportionately men, you shut down trade, which favors the service economy in the US because we export a lot of services, which disproportionately employs women. So what do you get? You get, everybody is poorer, but women especially are poorer relative to men. And the idea is to just, just reinforce women being dependent on men for their livelihoods so that they are having babies.

[Jon Favreau]

I will tell you in, in Trump 1.0, when the handmaid's Tale first came out and part of the resistance was like, people dressed up as handmaids and protesting, I always rolled my eyes a little bit and I was like, Because I watched the Handmaid's Tale and I'm like, feels very different than what Trump is doing. Like, he's very bad. Obviously what's happening in the movie is much worse, but it doesn't feel as theocratic.

[Max Fisher]

Right, right. Aren't we taking this a little far now? We've ended up, you know what? Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

The final season has started. And I was like, okay, yeah, no, we're very.

[Max Fisher]

That is in fact what they're talking about. And especially the like, evangelical of it all and the men in control of women of it all. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, hopefully one of the, one of the draft executive orders that has been suggested to the White House would bestow a national medal of motherhood to mothers with six or more children. So that's something to shoot for, ladies.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, if you have six kids, that's impressive. And I will give you a medal that will not be white supremacist coded. So you don't have to take the Trump medal. How about that?

[Jon Favreau]

But also some, some of the best mothers around maybe just have one child. Maybe one child that they're raising by themselves. You can have, maybe a mother's raising two children by herself. That would be pretty great. Maybe a dad's doing it.

[Max Fisher]

I do think this is, I do think this is fundamentally what this whole issue is about is are women going to be in control of how many kids they have or not?

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Max Fisher]

I think that's what, that's the whole thing is do they get to be in charge of having kids at all and how many they have? And I think that all of these, the trade policies, the tariffs, the quote unquote pronatalism is all meant to try to compel women to have more kids than they would if they had total choice and autonomy.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

One last pretty dystopian sort of funny item to talk about. The launch of Clulee, which bills itself as, quote, an undetectable AI powered assistant built for virtual meetings, sales calls and more. Might be like, what's that all about? Well, their manifesto starts like this quote, we want you to cheat on everything. We build Clulee so you never have to think alone again. It sees your screen, hears your audio and feeds you answers in real time. Time. Yes, the world will call it cheating, but so is the calculator. So is Spellcheck. So is Google.

[Max Fisher]

No, it's not.

[Jon Favreau]

So start cheating. Because when everyone does, no one is that's the manifesto. Apparently this thing just gives you responses in real time, like on your screen as you're doing virtual meetings. In their use case section, it gives an example of a response on screen that says, quote. That makes sense. Just focus on showing you understand their concern. You might say, I completely understand that sticking to a budget is important. Important. Pause here and let them respond. Max, should we start podcasting with Cluly? Pause here and let Max respond. Be sure to nod if you agree with his point, John.

[Max Fisher]

That makes sense. I'm focusing on showing you I understand your concerns. Look, once we start outsourcing everyday interpersonal interactions to the machines, like, it's kind of over for us as a species. Like, we haven't talked about this before, but the recent tech thing that I hate the most, by far, I'm not saying it's the most damaging, but the one I hate the most are the. The auto prompt responses on Gmail and now imessage. Yeah, I hate that. I'm a human being. I decide how I interact with people like this.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it sounds good.

[Max Fisher]

I don't want to say that. I see those little sounds good buttons and I'm like, oh, there is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious that you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels. That's kind of my vibe. Yeah. So the good news here is that there has been a lot of online backlog flush to this. Like, if you look at what people are saying about it, it's not like, I can't wait to get cluely and use it for my friend encounters. Or, like, friend hangs.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Max Fisher]

Everybody's making fun of it partly because they advertise it with someone using it on a first date, which is so dehumanizing.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, you. You call your Uber with the Uber driver has the gun. Remember that one?

[Max Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

So then you've got your own private security.

[Max Fisher]

Your arms there.

[Jon Favreau]

Uber driver. He drives you to the restaurant with his. Then you've got your Cluly. So you don't have to worry about conversation. You can just enjoy your drinks.

[Max Fisher]

It's really like, you know, Wally, when they're in those chairs, and it's like everything is automated for them. Like, someone saw that and was like, oh, let's do that. Yeah, let's do the big chairs where we don't talk to each other. But no, there. There is still some fight left in the human spirit because people saw this and they were like, this is horrible. And I don't want it and I hate it. And I say good for them, good for them. Dunk clearly.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, before we get to listener questions, some quick housekeeping. New episode of Polar Coaster just dropped. Dan's joined by top Democratic pollster Molly Murphy, president of Impact Research. They're diving into the data behind the headlines. Is Trump actually feeling the heat from the economic turmoil? Should Democrats be talking about immigration? Don't miss out on this exclusive series available only to Friends of the pod. Head to crooked.com friends to join today and for the month of April, enjoy a 30 day free trial to the Friends of the Pod community. But hurry, it's off. Ran soon. All right. On Monday, we reached out to the Friends of the Pod discord community and asked for listener questions. Ideally lighter, less intense listener questions because, you know, everything you just heard news has been rough. You know, who, who can blame us? So we got a lot of great responses and our producer Emma pulled a couple for us to walk through. Ready to get started?

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

This is from Handle with Claire. It's great. I love that. This is a great question.

[Max Fisher]

I love this one.

[Jon Favreau]

Is there a moment in history or world events when you wish you could have been there and accidentally added to the signal chat?

[Max Fisher]

It's a great question.

[Jon Favreau]

What emojis do you think the participants would have used?

[Max Fisher]

So I the cool answer to this would be like backstage at Woodstock or something. But my honest to God answer, and I am ashamed to say this popped into my head immediately, was the 1986 Reykjavik summit between Gorbachev and Ronald Reagan. Wait, hear me out, hear me out. They agreed in principle to total nuclear disarmament, global nuclear disarmament. But the talks broke down over a Strategic Defense Initiative, otherwise known as Star wars missile defense.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think that the emojis would have been the like, like fire kind of explosion?

[Max Fisher]

Emoji would have been rocket explosion and then the like X arms, like no, no, no. I would have been in there with just a little, a little eyes emoji and some of the proposals and a little prayer hands emoji. And I think that gets line to global nuclear disarmament.

[Jon Favreau]

It's pretty good.

[Max Fisher]

So I feel pretty good about that.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't have, I really, I'm going to give you the first one that popped into my mind which is again, it's, it's not cool, it's very dorky and it's also not that far in the past. January 6th, afterwards I would like to be on the signal group chat with all the Republican leaders talking about it.

[Max Fisher]

That's a good answer.

[Jon Favreau]

McConnell and fucking. What's his name, Kevin McCarthy. And what they were saying. I would, I couldn't pick whether it was them or White House staffers who did not testify at the hearings but were around Trump and stayed loyal to Trump.

[Max Fisher]

No members.

[Jon Favreau]

That's another.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah. What's Ted Cruz saying?

[Jon Favreau]

What's Steve Bannon saying? What's they're saying to, you know, pretend Donald Trump's on the signal because we're just pretending this. Whatever. I would just love to know what was actually saying.

[Max Fisher]

Do you think Josh Hawley is doing a little oops emoji? Do you think he's doing the little, the big eyes, pleading face emoji?

[Jon Favreau]

Is there like a, like a Mike Pence face with like a red X next to. To it?

[Max Fisher]

Well, so I, I should have asked you this when the signal thing first happened. Like you've been in the room for some big, like high level political. Is it like the signal chat? Is it that stupid?

[Jon Favreau]

No.

[Max Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, absolutely not.

[Max Fisher]

Okay, that's good to hear.

[Jon Favreau]

And you know, keep in mind, I was not involved. Like, Rhodes and Tommy could talk more about like national security stuff, but there was, there's, there's no humor. There was no, no bragging about X, Y or Z. Oh, sure. Around any of the national security operations. I was there for all the like, economic crisis stuff, but it was pretty dry and pretty like, we gotta figure this out. Yeah. And everyone was. And again, back then, back then. But like, no one was on their phones messaging about anything. It was all kind of surprising. It was all email.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, sure.

[Jon Favreau]

And it was White House email.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And you had a separate Gmail account. Account that was not your personal Gmail because if you used that, someday someone could just look through it. But you had like a separate Gmail account. The White House counsel say, like, well, if you're abroad and you're away from your what, you can use this. But make sure anytime you use this, you forward every single email from it back to a White House email so it could be captured for the Records Act. And it was, it went without saying that if it was sensitive information, you would just not email it. You pick up the phone.

[Max Fisher]

Right. You actually talk to them. Well, the reason I ask is that I was just reading a book about the, the blundering into World War I. And I have to tell you, really reads like the signal chats.

[Jon Favreau]

Really?

[Max Fisher]

Yes. Oh, yeah. The Kaiser is in there and he sounds like Pete Hegseth.

[Jon Favreau]

That's that, that would have been a good answer. All right, Heidi wants to know. I'm curious what New York Times games John and Max play, and do they have a specific order? They complete them every day. Heidi is Wordle mini connections and strands first thing in the morning. Alternatively, if you were to be transubstantiated, like Jesus, what would be your wine and bread?

[Max Fisher]

God bless. To ask those two questions in tandem. God bless our listeners.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I'll let you do the New York Times Games 1, because I don't play any New York Times games.

[Max Fisher]

I actually do not play any of the New York Times games either. I do. I. I have it. An online game that I play with friends that's very similar where it's, like, very simple. It's just once a day. It's this little map, and you just, like, move these little pieces. But we've been playing. It's about 30 of us. We've been playing since 2020.

[Jon Favreau]

That's great.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah. It's based on diplomacy, which is a board game that people may know that's fun. It's very nerdy, which I love.

[Jon Favreau]

I would be Sauvignon blanc and a popover.

[Max Fisher]

And a popover.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

Okay. That's cute.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, Just a great. It's just a great kind of little pre dinner roll.

[Max Fisher]

A popover is delicious. Yeah. Maybe a nice source dough. Maybe.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe like a salt bagel.

[Max Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Is that.

[Max Fisher]

Sure. Everything with a schmear.

[Jon Favreau]

Imagine that going up for communion. It's just a swig of Sauvignon blanc and a salt bagel.

[Max Fisher]

That does a nice. Listen.

[Jon Favreau]

Happy Easter, everyone. That was. That was an honor of Pope Francis.

[Max Fisher]

I don't have a transubstantiation answer, because I don't. I don't feel that I should. But I do have. I do have an Easter story that is related to offline. So I did not go to Easter services. I slept in, which was great. It rocked. But Julia went with some friends to a Lutheran service, and the pastor at one point called up all the kids for the children's liturgy. And he kept saying, God bless and keep you safe, especially on the Internet. And literally every time he would address a kid, he would say, look at this beautiful child. God bless you and keep you safe. Especially on the Internet.

[Jon Favreau]

Come on. Offline.

[Max Fisher]

I think he's a listener.

[Jon Favreau]

Julia should have grabbed him.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Love to talk to you about this. That segues very well into our next question. This is from John and says, John, I'm probably teaching middle schoolers next year. I need a more convincing argument for them than, quote, we looked in the mirror and are horrified at what we see. We're trying to make you better than us in getting them off their phones in class.

[Max Fisher]

John sounds like maybe he's got some questions about himself as well.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I agree with John that that would not be the most convincing I've been or necessarily appropriate for. From. For middle schoolers. I thought about this one for a while because it's a. Because it's one that I'm thinking about too. Oh, yeah. I think that the best argument is, you know, with kids, you don't want to tell them, like, you cannot, or, I mean, you can tell them this, but I don't think it's as effective. You cannot do this. It's bad. X is bad for you. You got to stay away. Like, you can do some of that with some really dangerous things, but you want to kind of hold those in reserve because I think it wears out after a while. While. Like, I would just say, look, when you guys are here for a certain amount of time every day, and when you're out of here, do whatever you want, be on your phones when you're here, you are going to be happier, you're going to have better friendships, you're going to be thinking better, you're going to do better on your tests, better on all the stuff you need to do in school if you're actually present. And it doesn't mean you can't talk. It doesn't mean you can't have communication with your friends. It just means that. That your brain can really only focus on a couple things at a time.

[Max Fisher]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

And if you got the phone, then that's one. That's. You're going to be distracted. And you know what? It's going to make you feel more tired and more anxious at the end of the day. And we have the science to know that now.

[Max Fisher]

This is a pretty good appeal.

[Jon Favreau]

What do you think?

[Max Fisher]

Honestly, that's. That's actually pretty good. I feel like we should actually, at this point.

[Jon Favreau]

Kids are throwing things at me at the front of the classroom.

[Max Fisher]

I don't know if you're winning popularity, but I, I mean, you know, print it out and make it the cigarette label to put on your Facebook login. I think that's pretty effective. Yeah. I did not have as good of an answer. I just thought that because we know that kids actually do want to be off of their phones. It's a collective action problem. You just tell them that everybody wants to be off your phone. So you should be off so that everyone else feels like they can be off. But I like the idea of emphasizing what you're giving up.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And what you're getting. And what you're getting.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

You know? Yeah, yeah.

[Max Fisher]

Maybe you replace it with like in person socializing time, you say like tickets to chit chat.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. We're going to do five minutes where you can. Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

So then you don't need to. You wait.

[Jon Favreau]

That's right.

[Max Fisher]

That's the phone.

[Jon Favreau]

Harper, MD asks, Are the outdoor walks still happening? Any other touching grass, getting outside, enjoying animals moments?

[Max Fisher]

I love that encourage us to touch grass.

[Jon Favreau]

I gotta say, the outdoor walks for me are still happening.

[Max Fisher]

That's great.

[Jon Favreau]

But they. The AirPods are in and I'm probably listening to a political podcast.

[Max Fisher]

Are you doing that because you need to keep up or just because otherwise you're kind of spinning and you're head?

[Jon Favreau]

Either because I need to keep up, because I'm trying to. Everything's about jamming all the content in, in all the hours that I'm awake.

[Max Fisher]

It's a lot to keep up with.

[Jon Favreau]

So I would, I would like to go without it. Although, you know, I took a walk this weekend, two long walks with Teddy because he's at the age where I can just put him in the stroller and he's not saying anything and he'll just walk and put my phone on top of the stroller in case like someone needed me but had it away from me and then just didn't have anything in my ears and was just walking around and it was great. Lovely.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, I know. It's the kind of thing that I forget to do. I put in the podcast because, ah, my thoughts are spinning around. I just want to listen to this, whatever. But if I don't tune in to.

[Jon Favreau]

Episodes of Pod Save America.

[Max Fisher]

That was not a. I know, I know, I know. But I do find that if I force myself to do the walk without the headphones for the first five minutes, I'm antsy, my mind is jumping around. I really want that distraction. But you hit like it really doesn't take that long. You hit minute six and it's great. I'm looking around and I feel better when I arrive too.

[Jon Favreau]

Wherever I'm going.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

But I'm glad you said that because everyone should know that when you try this, it's not magic. When suddenly, like right away you don't have it in because you will go through that period of like, ah, this isn't great. I thought this was supposed to be nice. No, it, it sucks at first, but then it feels great.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. And you do get there, I think pretty quickly. But I have definitely been not as much on my walk since I came back from the trip. I think I've just been like discompopulated from the jet lag and I, I really noticed the difference.

[Jon Favreau]

Reintegration is tough.

[Max Fisher]

It's tough coming back to the world. Turns out it's real shitty out here.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Oh yeah. Those are all the questions. Look, we also asked you guys for some fun light stories just so we could end on a real high note. I just picked out a couple that I thought were nice headlines. Let's Hear them, Jules. TBC sent us a headline. Dozen search for missing 2 year old in the Arizona desert. Now you might say, oh, that doesn't sound so great, Buford. The dog was the real hero. The dog found the 2 year old in the desert. We love dogs. We love kids who were found. Great story, man.

[Max Fisher]

This is some upworthy.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. Remember that were back in like 2000, what was it? Five, six? Oh no, later, later. But a little felt like that.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. It was like Obama's election like right around then. Yeah, man. Remember when we thought the wor on the Internet was that the upworthy headlines were too optimistic and progressive and it was slightly annoying?

[Jon Favreau]

What? What I wouldn't give. Yes, we got another one from Harper that said this might be two politics but at least I have been very energized by what's going on at my local level. All the people that are doing the work to educate people and bring them in is really energizing for me.

[Max Fisher]

That's great.

[Jon Favreau]

I want to bring that one up because there are, I feel like we've talked about, we talk about so much bad news because there's a lot of bad news to talk about. Everyone should know about it. And I feel like too many people still aren't paying attention or at least sufficiently alarmed. But. But you know, we saw another series of rallies this last weekend around the country. There were the hands off rallies a couple weeks before that. And you know, you're just starting to see the energy and the organizing pop up. And I think that's wonderful. And I think when we mentioned, when I mentioned somewhere maybe it was on this pod that I hadn't known that the hands off rallies were happening. People were not happy with me because they said if I had been on Blue sky more I would have known that's.

[Max Fisher]

Maybe that's true.

[Jon Favreau]

I hear you Blue sky folks. I hear you and I'M I'm. I'm trying to. I'm trying. I'm trying. It's a lot to post on, too. I'm not leaving Twitter because I need to be on Twitter. There's a lot of there. And I. And I. And I need to be watching them.

[Max Fisher]

Because they're yelling at you.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, they're. They're all yelling at me. But I'm. I'm. I really am checking Blue Sky a lot. Wow.

[Max Fisher]

I feel this is. This is the most open you've been to Blue sky yet. I feel I'll be.

[Jon Favreau]

I'll be a theater.

[Max Fisher]

Was this thing that brought you around was that hearing that the protests are getting more.

[Jon Favreau]

I try to check Blue sky, like, a couple. Couple times a week. I just find it's. It's just laziness. But, like, posting what I post on Twitter and then posting it to Blue sky and then. And then remembering to post there, it's just an added step. That's tricky. But getting there. I'm getting there. I'm not opposed to it.

[Max Fisher]

Some. One thing that is tied to this that has started to sell me on Blue Sky a little bit is there is this whole thread of things that are happening in the country that are, like, positive political reactions. Like, protests is a really big one.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

Like Chris Van Hollingoy to El Salvador, the. The big Cory Booker, like, occupation of the Senate. You don't hear about these things on Twitter. And my friends, who are, like, very high information and really up on the news, but are big Twitter addicts, literally don't know that they're happening and are, like, shocked when I tell them about it. But they do get a lot more attention on Blue Sky.

[Jon Favreau]

They do. And then the last one, I don't know if this is uplifting, but it's funny as hell. Derek Guy, you know, the fashion guy on Twitter. Menswear. So this is real. He tweeted. I got in an argument with a couple of people on here a few days ago. I told one guy I'm Asian. I told the other guy I'm white. I told them both to meet me outside the store, and they did. He tricked two people into getting into a fight outside a Uniqlo.

[Max Fisher]

Of course it's a Uniqlo. Incredible. That's amazing. I don't even know if it's true. If I believe it, I don't care. I believe it's great either way. It's great either way.

[Jon Favreau]

You people, you. You. The people who are attacking you on Twitter, you send them to a real life spot and then they just let them go at it.

[Max Fisher]

You know what it makes when I see Derek amazing. I think we finally got one. We finally got a truly online super poster whose politics are good instead of bad.

[Jon Favreau]

Also, that is like next level posting that you have achieved sort of some sort of. I mean, you should get the. I don't. I know they're just doing a mother's medal, but maybe they should do a poster medal too. And Derek gets it for that.

[Max Fisher]

Give them the mother's medal.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, that's our show for today for this week. We'll see you next week. Have a have a good one, everyone. As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us@offline crooked.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform for ad free episodes of Offline and Pod Save America exclusive content and more. Join our Friends of the Pod subscription [e-mail] friends and if you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. The show is produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Ilick Frank. Jordan Kanter is our sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglin. Delon Villain Nueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrian Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. EAS support for this podcast comes from Progressive, America's number one motorcycle insurer. Did you know? Riders who switch and save with Progressive save nearly $180 per year. That's a whole new pair of riding gloves and more. Quote Today Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $178 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between October 2022 September 2023. Potential savings will vary.

[C]

Three distinct All Electric Cadillacs. Some drive them for the performance, others drive them for the range, and some drive them because it's the only way to make an entrance. Three different ways to turn every drive into an occasion Whatever your reason, there's never been a better time to say let's take the cattle. The all electric Cadillac family of vehicles Escalade, IQ Optic and Lyriq.