Elon Kills the Block Button, AI Comes for Podcasts, and The Good Liar's Guide to Talking to Trump Voters

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau – Episode Summary Title: Elon Kills the Block Button, AI Comes for Podcasts, and The Good Liar's Guide to Talking to Trump Voters
Release Date: October 27, 2024
Host/Author: Crooked Media
Description:
Is the internet slowly breaking our brains, and if so, what can we do about it? Offline with Jon Favreau offers a respite from doom-scrolling with intelligent and light-hearted conversations about technology's impact on our culture. This episode delves into social media dynamics, artificial intelligence in media, and features an insightful interview with Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler of The Good Liars.

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1. Introduction and Guests

The episode kicks off with Jon Favreau introducing the guests, Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler, known collectively as The Good Liars. Their unique approach involves trolling Trump supporters at rallies to highlight inconsistencies in their viewpoints.

Jon Favreau (01:03): "You may have already seen a clip from the Good Liars. Their trademark video involves Jason or Devram at a Trump rally or Republican event, interviewing Trump supporters about the inconsistencies in their worldview."

2. Twitter's Block Function Overhaul

The hosts discuss Elon Musk's recent changes to Twitter's block feature, which now only restricts user interactions without hiding tweets from blocked users. This alteration has sparked significant backlash and concerns over increased harassment.

Jon Favreau (02:06): "Twitter's owner and biggest dipshit, Elon Musk, he tweeted, high time this happened."

Max Fisher (03:55): "Every time he [Musk]... it's just a reminder that it's like, yeah, he wants you to have a bad time on the website."

The conversation highlights how the removal of the block function compromises user safety, especially for women who rely on it to fend off harassment and stalking.

Max Fisher (05:22): "Any woman who has any sort of following online, like, really needs the block function because you get so many stalkers and harassers."

3. Emergence of Blue Sky and Other Social Platforms

With Twitter's block feature being dismantled, alternative platforms like Blue Sky have seen a surge in users. However, the hosts express skepticism about Blue Sky's ability to compete with established platforms like Threads, which boasts 175 million users.

Jon Favreau (09:50): "BlueSky added a million users in two days and jumped to the number two social networking app in the App Store."

Max Fisher (11:01): "It's 16 times [Threads' user base]. So it's exciting. And everyone in my life who is on blue sky has been texting me constantly... But it's like, okay, because they're bored."

4. Google's AI Podcast Generator: NotebookLM

The hosts explore Google's new AI tool, NotebookLM, which can convert any text into a podcast. While marketed as a research tool for summarizing complex information, there are concerns about its potential to undermine local news organizations by absorbing and monetizing their content.

Jon Favreau (13:37): "Google quietly rolled out a new AI tool that allows users to turn any piece of text into a podcast."

Max Fisher (20:03): "Instead you plug in local news stories. Now Google is getting that ad revenue instead of the actual reporters and newspaper that produce the stories."

5. Interview with The Good Liars: Engaging Trump Supporters

Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler share their journey from creating comedic sketches at Occupy Wall Street protests to conducting in-depth interviews at Trump rallies. Their experiences range from humorous interactions to witnessing tense and alarming events, including the January 6th Capitol riot.

a. Origins and Evolution

Initially aiming to entertain through satire, The Good Liars unintentionally attracted investment bankers and later, a broader audience at Trump rallies.

Jason Selvig (25:42): "We started Occupy Wall Street and we went down there a few times. It kind of took on a life of its own."

b. Encounters at Trump Events

The duo recounts various interactions, from light-hearted trolling to facing hostility. They discuss the complex motivations behind Trump supporters' allegiance, often rooted in a desire for authenticity and resistance against perceived establishment.

Davram Stiefler (32:20): "Trump is doing pro wrestling stuff. He is doing Stone Cold Steve Austin... he says stuff that I wish I could say."

c. Experience During January 6th

A particularly harrowing account of being present during the Capitol riot highlights the thin line between performance and genuine threat within Trump rallies.

Davram Stiefler (43:07): "We ended up... seeing these guys beating the shit out of the cops there... It stuck with us because... replaying everything, like a little bit of PTSD."

d. Conspiratorial Thinking Among Trump Supporters

They delve into why Trump supporters are often drawn to conspiracy theories, linking it to Trump's own conspiratorial rhetoric and the broader socio-economic frustrations within certain communities.

Davram Stiefler (34:53): "Trump, he is a conspiracy theorist. Like, that's his whole thing... people are drawn to somebody who... is speaking on their behalf."

6. The Intersection of Humor and Seriousness

Selvig and Stiefler discuss the challenge of balancing humor with the gravity of the political climate, aiming to both entertain and provoke critical thinking among their audience.

Jason Selvig (30:27): "We want to amuse and horrify. I guess not just people watching, but ourselves... maybe find some common ground in this crazy, crazy world."

7. Call to Action: Encourage Voting

As the episode approaches the election, Jon Favreau and Max Fisher urge listeners to actively participate by reaching out to friends in battleground states. They emphasize the importance of personal engagement in influencing the election's outcome.

Jon Favreau (22:21): "We need everyone listening. We need you to think of three people... and make sure that they vote."

Max Fisher (23:26): "Reminders work. And we're calling it last call."

8. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt endorsement of The Good Liars, encouraging listeners to support their work and stay informed.

Jon Favreau (50:11): "Thanks to The Good Liars... Appreciate what you guys do."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jon Favreau (02:06): "Twitter's owner and biggest dipshit, Elon Musk, he tweeted, high time this happened."
• Max Fisher (05:22): "Any woman who has any sort of following online, like, really needs the block function because you get so many stalkers and harassers."
• Jason Selvig (30:27): "We want to amuse and horrify. I guess not just people watching, but ourselves... maybe find some common ground in this crazy, crazy world."
• Davram Stiefler (34:53): "Trump, he is a conspiracy theorist. Like, that's his whole thing... people are drawn to somebody who... is speaking on their behalf."

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Key Takeaways:

1. Social Media's Evolving Landscape: Elon Musk's changes to Twitter's block feature have significant implications for user safety and platform dynamics, prompting users to explore alternatives like Blue Sky.

2. AI in Media Production: Google's NotebookLM represents a double-edged sword, offering innovative tools for content creation while posing threats to traditional media revenue streams.

3. The Good Liars' Impact: Through their unique approach to engaging with Trump supporters, Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler shed light on the motivations and vulnerabilities within this demographic, emphasizing the complex interplay between humor and political discourse.

4. Voter Engagement: The episode underscores the critical role of individual actions in influencing electoral outcomes, urging listeners to actively participate in the democratic process.

5. Balancing Humor and Seriousness: Effective political commentary requires navigating the delicate balance between entertaining audiences and addressing profound societal issues.

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Offline with Jon Favreau continues to explore the intricate relationships between technology, media, and politics, offering listeners thoughtful analysis and engaging conversations to foster a more informed and balanced perspective.

Transcript

[Jason Selvig]

In Scranton, Pennsylvania, recently, a guy got really mad at us, and he started screaming. These guys are trying to ask tough questions. They're trying to stump us. They're trying to ask tough questions. He got to the point of like, going and getting a police officer, you know, bringing him over and saying, these guys are trying to ask tough questions. We all just kind of, like, stood there looking at the dirt, like, and the cop was like, yeah, no, no, they're definitely allowed to do that. And the guy just like, yeah, kind of like slowly turn around, like, fine, and, you know, just kind of slowly walk back to his spot in line. So, yes, like, you know, people kind of catch on that we're trying to, I don't know, hold up a mirror, I guess, get them to say these things and see if they question them. Most of the time, it's not tense, and, you know, when it is, whatever, we move on, we talk to someone else.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Favreau.

[Max Fisher]

I'm Max Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

And you just heard from today's guests, Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler, who you may better know as the Good Liars.

[Max Fisher]

Love those guys.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So you may have already seen a clip from the Good Liars. Their trademark video involves Jason or Devram on Mike at a Trump rally or Republican event, interviewing Trump supporters about the inconsistencies in their worldview. So basically, they go to Trump rallies and they troll the attendees. They've even heckled Trump himself at one event.

[Jason Selvig]

We want to be entertained.

[Davram Stiefler]

This is boring.

[Max Fisher]

So boring.

[Jon Favreau]

Boring. Viral. That was my first introduction to them on that video. So with less than 10 days until the election, I thought it'd be fun to have them join to talk about all the different things they've seen at Trump rallies over the years. Give us some insight on how Trump supporters are thinking about this election and, you know, whether it's possible to change any minds out there. All in all, great conversation and excited for you guys to hear it.

[Max Fisher]

Great anthropologist.

[Jon Favreau]

Great anthropologist.

[Max Fisher]

The Trump rally kind of movement. Love to dig into the most terrifying brains in America.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, that's made it my. Made it my life's work.

[Max Fisher]

That's what we do.

[Jon Favreau]

But before we get to that, the news. This week, the app formerly known as Twitter announced a major change to the block function. And that changes. It's gone. Like most platforms, Twitter's block function previously allowed you to restrict other accounts from seeing your posts. How a block typically works. But following the change, blocking a user will only restrict their ability to engage with Your posts. Meaning. Meaning accounts that you block will still be able to see your tweets, just not reply to them or repost them or qt.

[Max Fisher]

They can stalk away.

[Jon Favreau]

They can stalk away and they can screenshot you and they could. That's a screenshot.

[Jason Selvig]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

We got some more things.

[Jon Favreau]

Following the change. Twitter's owner and biggest dipshit, Elon Musk, he tweeted, high time this happened. So I know we've had too many Twitter death watch conversations here, but I thought this was a big enough change worth talking about. What was your initial reaction when you heard this?

[Max Fisher]

Boy, it's an exciting step towards me and Glenn Greenwald finally reconciling. It's gonna be, you know, look at each other's faces. We blocked each other, like, over a decade ago, but occasionally he still pulls up my page and finds things to yell at.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow, that's commitment.

[Max Fisher]

Listen, you gotta have a nemesis in this life. So I was actually surprised by how big of a deal this became, to be honest. I kind of saw this and I think this was my bias as someone who has, like a medium large following on the platform is I kind of always thought, like, well, if someone wants to yell at me on Twitter, they're going to find a way. So, like, blocking, not blocking, doesn't make any difference. But the response has been huge. People are really outraged about it. I think it's something about coming on a year, two years of headlines about how Elon Musk wants to turn this into the neo Nazi and harassment and cyberstalking website. That is just like, every time he.

[Jon Favreau]

Which, you know, he's making some good headway.

[Max Fisher]

Exactly right. And I think that's like, every time there's another headline like this, it's just a reminder that it's like, yeah, he wants you to have a bad time on the website.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I. I find it very weird, the whole thing, because on one hand you just mentioned this, like, people like, oh, well, you know, people can see the tweets, but you can't harass people because you can't engage with the person. Well, it's like, well, you can engage with the. What you can do is screenshot the tweet, then post it and then tell everyone like, oh, go after this person. Right. Or so like, you've. It is going to encourage harassment on the other side. X has basically told people now, well, you can protect your tweets. You can have your tweets. Yeah. And if you do that, then only, you know, only your followers can see it.

[Max Fisher]

And Then people, they don't really want you to take your account private. They want to make it very difficult, very cumbersome. And this is also, like, I think part of our bias as two men on this podcast is like, any woman who has any sort of following online, like, really needs the block function because you get so many stalkers and harassers. And the block function is. It's a speed bump, you know, but it's. It's something. And you kind of need every protection you can get. And the fact that they are deliberately dismantling one of the very few existing protections for user safety they have on Twitter is just a big. Another big neon flashing sign that's like, this platform is for a very certain subset of users, men who have restraining orders against them.

[Davram Stiefler]

This is.

[Max Fisher]

This is your website. This is your place to go.

[Jon Favreau]

I was going to say, how much of the change do you think is just Elon Musk wanting to see the posts of the many, many, many accounts that blocked him?

[Max Fisher]

I actually was wondering if maybe Elon just got so many blocks on his account after they retooled the algorithm to fucking force his Twitter feed into everybody else's feeds. Because, like, you blocked him. I blocked him just because we were seeing too many of his posts. I wonder if he saw block numbers. Oh, you muted.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. This is an interesting thing to talk about is block versus mute. I tend to mute people because sometimes when you block someone, you give them the satisfaction of knowing they've been blocked. And then some of these fucking people.

[Max Fisher]

They love to screenshot that they got blocked and be like, got him.

[Jon Favreau]

Look who.

[Max Fisher]

Look who couldn't take it.

[Jon Favreau]

Jon Favreau couldn't take my criticism, so he blocked me. Now everyone retweeted.

[Max Fisher]

I know that prove that I'm right. Yeah. Do you know what experience I've been starting to have more in the last couple of years. So they've rolled out these tools now that let you auto block huge numbers of users. And it's actually really.

[Jon Favreau]

Is that what Marc Andreessen has done?

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Marc Andreessen is apparently a VC guy. He blocks everyone one day. I don't think I've ever interacted with him. And I was like, oh, I can't read his tweets. He blocked me.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. He and a lot of tech venture capitalist people at one point blocked every reporter in the media. So they, like, built some tool to do that, which is cool. Great, great. But so in theory, it's a useful tool. It's like, I want to block all the Neo Nazis. I want to block all the spam bots, but sometimes accounts get pulled into that. So I've had this experience where I will meet someone, like, at a party, and we'll be chatting, we'll be like, oh, let's follow each other on social media. And they'll pull it up, we'll be like, wait, do you fucking block me on Twitter?

[Jon Favreau]

Who were you blocking?

[Max Fisher]

No, they were blocking me.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, they were blocking you. Oh, because you're a journalist.

[Max Fisher]

Yes, that's right. Because they don't. They don't like the truth and they can't handle it.

[Jon Favreau]

I also find the rationale from X and from Elon sort of confusing too, which is they're like, well, if you're blocked by someone, then they can be saying all kinds of nefarious things about you. You can't know.

[Max Fisher]

Great, I don't wanna fucking know. That's the whole thing. It's bad if you know everything anyone has ever said about you. Your brain can't handle that. The idea of a website where you go and log on and you read every fucking insult or shitty thing that someone has said, you're not ready for that. Emotionally, we are better off if you can't hear that stuff. We need to have private conversations. And wanting to force everything into the big public square is. I know people are calling it an ideological decision. I really think just what happened here is that a block is a speed bump on engagement and the numbers are terrible at Twitter, the company is not doing well. So I think they thought if we remove every block, that's just a little bit more engagement, we can juice out of people.

[Jon Favreau]

So I'm wondering if you're someone who is like, okay, well, I've blocked a bunch of people and now they're going to be unblocked and they can see my tweets. What is the. The thread of harassment there? Because they can't DM you, they can't reply to you? Is it that they can screenshot your tweet, post it, and then other people will go after. I'm trying to think.

[Max Fisher]

I think there's kind of two risks. I think one is like encouraging harassment on the platform, which is someone screenshots one of your tweets and says, you know, look at what this idiot said. They've voted away, that I don't like, whatever. And then posts it, gets that to go viral. Because that is something we know the platform loves and will send viral. Especially if you use outrage words in it. And then a bunch of other People who will say that will then come and harass you. And that happens all the time.

[Jon Favreau]

Who you haven't blocked. Yeah, yeah.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, all the time. You will see, like, you'll see a viral screenshot of someone's tweet. If you go to their account, like, almost always the account is set to private or they've got some post up that's like, I'm getting, you know, deluged and angry. Dm. So I had to shut down my account. And I think the other.

[Jon Favreau]

Like that woman who dared to tweet that she liked being in the garden and having coffee, we got her ass.

[Max Fisher]

That'll fucking teach you, lady, to go into the garden. You know, it happens all the. It's every day. Every day there's some new person who gets singled out because someone is lazy and looking for engagement. And I think the other danger is just stalkers. It's just being able to access someone's feed. It's just. It gives you more information about where they're going and what they're doing. And that's something that people should be able to control.

[Jon Favreau]

So I know we always make fun of tooting and skating and threading.

[Max Fisher]

We're talking Blue sky, baby.

[Jon Favreau]

All the other Twitter competitors. But apparently Blue sky has been getting a ton of users lately. It started in early September when Twitter was briefly blocked in Brazil, which we talked about. And now, after Elon announced that they're getting rid of the block feature, BlueSky added a million users in two days and jumped to the number two social networking app in the App Store. Do you think it's time for us to move to Blue sky post election? Obviously we can't do anything right now.

[Max Fisher]

So the numbers are right. That's right. Under the Kamala Harris administration, we're all going to Blue sky and we're all skeeting. So they.

[Jon Favreau]

I was too lazy to look this up. Is it skeeting in Blue Sky?

[Max Fisher]

I don't know.

[Jon Favreau]

And tooting in Mastodon?

[Max Fisher]

I don't know. And I'm so proud that I'm never going to find out.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, me too.

[Max Fisher]

So they got a million new subscribers, like basically overnight with this block thing. And they got 3 million new subscribers when Brazil banned Twitter for a few weeks. So it's huge numbers and they're really touting it. That has brought them up to 11 million active users. Would you like to know? That makes them the number three microblogging service. Would you like to know how many users are at the number two microblocking service threads. Oh, 175 million.

[Jon Favreau]

That's a lot.

[Max Fisher]

So it's 16 times. Yes. So it's like, it's exciting. And it's like, look, momentum for blue sky. And everyone in my life who is on blue sky has been texting me constantly, being like, now's the time. Time to jump on board the blue sky, drink the Kool Aid. But it's like, okay, because they're bored.

[Jon Favreau]

And lonely there, but they're all just.

[Max Fisher]

Screaming at each other about New York Times headlines on.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, is that what they're doing?

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Ugh, I don't want those. That's not what I want.

[Max Fisher]

I had a friend of mine who was on it called at a group therapy session for Gen Xers. But it's just to say that. How relevant does threads feel to you right now?

[Jon Favreau]

Culturally, just.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And I was a. We remember, I was like an early booster.

[Max Fisher]

You're still on threads, aren't you?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I don't do anything there. But I had big hopes for threads because I was like, oh, Instagram is. They figured out how to make that work. And so enough people know again, the only reason Twitter is useful is because journalists, politicians, our world is critical mass is on it. And that has influence in media coverage and how things are shaped. And so it's like useful. If you could get all of those people off of that platform somewhere else, who would want to go on Twitter. I know it's not good for anything else anymore.

[Max Fisher]

Look, I would love for it to happen. I would love for us to all move to. Let's just all move to a big Google Doc where we just all paste comments at the top of the Google Doc. Like literally anything. We're all in a shared notes app. Anything would be better than Twitter, but it just. Unless the service completely shuts down, there's just no way to move the critical mass. And the thing is that the micro block blogging economy is just small. It's just a small market. It's completely stagnant. Twitter is stagnant. Threads is stagnant. This is just not where new users are going. They're going to video based services. And I think that's what's gonna happen is this is just the fucking AOL of Millennials, the AOL CD Rom. You and I are gonna be on it until the day we die. We're gonna be the last two users on Twitter.

[Jon Favreau]

Just tweeting, tweeting my goodbyes.

[Max Fisher]

But goodbye world.

[Jon Favreau]

And then like. But then dunking on bad hombre is gonna be like, yeah, I know I am.

[Max Fisher]

That's it. That's going to be the last day on Twitter. Someone's going to post and then the second to last years on Twitter is going to fucking dunk on his ass and I'm going to retweet it and that's it. And that's. And there's never going to be another Twitter because it's not where people want to go.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks, Elon. Asshole.

[Max Fisher]

I know, Really, I wish it had stuck it around. It was a useful service.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. You don't know what you get till it's gone, you know, because we were all complaining about it. Because there's plenty of complaints. But about Twitter before Elon.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, oh, I was making them, but now once they killed links, that was it. Yeah, I really think so.

[Jon Favreau]

All right. In other news, early last month Google quietly rolled out a new AI tool that allows users to turn any piece of text into a podcast.

[Max Fisher]

So it's, it's really.

[Jon Favreau]

Now you've got our attention.

[Max Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

The podcast generator is part of Notebook lm, a new service from Google that aims to quote, help users make sense of complex information by using AI to summarize notes, transcripts and other resources. Search documents. Admittedly, I haven't yet had a chance to interact with NotebookLM or this new podcast generator. But Max, you sat down earlier this week to learn just how apocalyptic this new tool may actually be. So can you give us an intro into NotebookLM?

[Max Fisher]

So the thing to understand about NotebookLM, it is meant to solve a problem with its AI chatbots, which is they are just way too open ended for most people to use because you have to kind of approach it like you're a programmer where you have to know what are the functions, how do you pull things up? It's like kind of Ms. Dos, you know, you have to know the right commands and levers to pull. And some of it does useful things, some of it produces junk. So NotebookLM is a little interface and you upload a bunch of docs and files to this interface and then you get prompts where you can ask it questions. Summarize the documents for me, you know, give me the top three points. What does it say about this? And it'll kind of go through and it'll be like chatting about what's in the documents. And because it doesn't go outside of those files, you don't get the kind of hallucinating, you don't get the weird misinformation stuff. It doesn't fall in Love with you or try to, you know, steal your partner, hopefully. And one thing that they plugged into this a few weeks ago and they've been iterating on that's getting all the attention you mentioned is that it will produce not just a podcast about the files that you upload, but a two person jokey conversational explainer news podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

We are now.

[Max Fisher]

Boy, does that sound familiar. Yes. I was literally when I first heard.

[Jon Favreau]

Actually everyone, this pod, this, this episode you're listening to is not really me.

[Max Fisher]

And Max, it just hitting. I was working on a script for the show that I do with Aaron, which is like an explainer news jokey news podcast. When I listened to this and I was like, oh, this is just what we do. Like, it sounds like it. It's a man and a woman who are talking. It's like really, really close.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, you have a. I think you.

[Max Fisher]

Said something about it. I did, I did. So we pulled a little bait and switch on you. So as you know. That's right. As you know, I. Oh no, I love a bait and switch.

[Jon Favreau]

I love pranks.

[Max Fisher]

So we talked before the episode, we talked about the fact that I downloaded my book and uploaded that to feature.

[Jon Favreau]

On sale now wherever books are sold.

[Max Fisher]

It is. Thank you very much, I appreciate that. Well, it's probably not when most physical bookstores a couple years old, but anyway, I uploaded the PDF and then it did in fact turn that into a 30 minute podcast where they discussed the lessons of the book. And I honestly, I was impressed. It was every. Everything was spot on, the analysis was sound, it sounded like a good podcast. But instead of playing that, we are going to play a clip from a different book.

[Jason Selvig]

Oh no.

[Jon Favreau]

Democracy or Else.

[Max Fisher]

A little tome I like to call Democracy or Else.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh boy.

[Max Fisher]

All right, let's hear it.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh God. They sort of break down some of the biggest systemic challenges and they even have this highly scientific rating system. No, I love it when they get scientifically for how difficult each thing is to fix. Like amending the Constitution, for example.

[Davram Stiefler]

They give a solid.

[Jon Favreau]

Good luck with that rating. Yeah, I was going to say that seems. That seems pretty hard. Like you need a supermajority vote in both houses of Congress and like three fourths of the states have to ratify it. Yeah.

[Davram Stiefler]

Oh man, the heavy lift.

[Jon Favreau]

Just getting people to agree on pizza toppings is hard enough. Forget about that.

[Max Fisher]

Isn't that wild?

[Davram Stiefler]

Wow.

[Max Fisher]

It's a podcast. It's just a podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh no.

[Max Fisher]

In four minutes. Yes. You can't know what it felt like to upload 110,000 words in years of work and have it turn into a 24 hour podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

I've been working on this story forever.

[Max Fisher]

That's right. And Google fucking tweeted it out.

[Davram Stiefler]

That's right.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. Oh, I know.

[Jon Favreau]

And it sounds, I've been thinking as we've been talking about, like, what would be useful to listen to? Like, what do I want distilled? This is the challenge with AI is like, it requires creativity in your own mind.

[Max Fisher]

That's right. For the way to use it.

[Jon Favreau]

How could I use this possibly. Right.

[Max Fisher]

Which is a part of the service of Notebook AI is they have narrowed your choices down for what you can do and put some guardrails on to try to encourage you towards useful functions. So, okay, there's what Google is marketing this as for, and then there's what I think it is actually for, which is separate. So what they're marketing for is basically a research tool. So if you are, you know, you're an anthropology professor and there's a bunch of big new research papers out and they're going to take forever to read. So instead you upload them to Notebook LM and you listen to a podcast summarizing the major points while you're commuting or, you know, you're a, a surgeon and you want to know the latest research on new surgery techniques. And this is a way to get technical information to you. That's what they're marketing it as, is a research tool. And it does seem like it'd be very useful that I think the actual function is to supplant local news organizations and to take their money. And I think the idea is things like you live in Wisconsin and you really wish there was a local news podcast, but it's not quite a big enough market to sustain like, you know, Pod Safe Wisconsin. So instead you, you just plug in local news stories.

[Jon Favreau]

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel just gets like plugged into the.

[Max Fisher]

Exactly right. And then it's, you know, instead of going to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel website, plug in the articles, list the podcast. Now Google is getting that ad revenue instead of the actual reporters and newspaper that produce the stories, which is the same thing that Google has done with a ton of information where now you read it through their platform, they collect 100% of the revenue. I think it's going to put a lot of news organizations out of business.

[Jon Favreau]

That's not good.

[Max Fisher]

It's not good. No.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is suckers.

[Max Fisher]

Because potentially it's a useful tool.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, people, what about the people who Write these books.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, we're never putting them out in PDF again, I'll fucking tell you that much. If I do another book, it's gonna be print and that's it.

[Jon Favreau]

You're gonna write at longhand.

[Max Fisher]

Absolutely. That's right. I'm gonna read it to you on the town square.

[Jon Favreau]

We're going back to the printing press.

[Max Fisher]

I'm gonna do the mark halperin zoom $5,000 subscription where I read it out. No, I'm not gonna do any Mark Halperin.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's a nightmare.

[Max Fisher]

It is. And it's.

[Jon Favreau]

It's the thing that, like everything else, I'm like, useful, Right? Nightmare. Both.

[Max Fisher]

The thing that's the thing that I tell you about it is that it's like the actual tool. Like, I was listening to the podcast of my book and I was like, this is really useful because maybe you don't have time to read every book. There's so many books I would want to read in theory, but they're very academic, they're very dense. Yeah, I could just get 24 minutes. The insights. But the ways that the industry, the tech industry, the AI industry are structured, I know it's just going to be extractive and it's just going to wipe out any sort of creatives who would actually be getting paid for this work instead.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's bleak. But I'm interested. I'm excited to load something in there.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, I haven't.

[Jon Favreau]

Podcast.

[Max Fisher]

I just remembered I have another clip for you. So we downloaded a transcript of a certain podcast you might know as Pod Save America and asked NotebookLM to summarize it. Evan, take it away way.

[Jon Favreau]

You'd think his team would want him out there, you know, firing on all cylinders, right?

[Jason Selvig]

But the Pots of America hearse has.

[Jon Favreau]

Actually made a point that I thought was really interesting. And they were saying, you know, maybe this isn't so much about fatigue as it is just a reflection of how.

[Davram Stiefler]

The media landscape has changed.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's a good point.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, they think you made a good point. Isn't that nice?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that one worried me a little less, actually. That's good. I don't know what the fuck they were talking about right now.

[Max Fisher]

No, I think they are, actually. I think you and I are going to be fine because there's the human connection that you could podcast and everything. I did ask NotebookLM after it sucked up this transcript if the episode was funny. Would you like to hear what it said? It said this episode of Pod Save America features a lot of humorous Commentary. The hosts used sarcasm and hyperbole throughout the episode. They sarcastically refer to Trump as a deranged clown and a random number generator. Overall, this episode is characterized by humor. I thought that was true.

[Jon Favreau]

The best compliment you can get is, overall, this episode is characterized by humor. That's what I'm looking for.

[Max Fisher]

They're great appreciated of the show.

[Jon Favreau]

Hopefully people who will listen to this episode will characterize it as humor as well. All right, that's our news for today. In a moment, we'll get to my conversation with the Good Liars. But first, some quick housekeeping. We are just days away from the election and this race will come down to a few thousand votes in a handful of battleground states. That's my.

[Max Fisher]

That's how I feel.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Max Fisher]

That's.

[Jon Favreau]

The most effective messengers in these final days are not people like us. They're people like you. So we need everyone listening. We need you to think of three people. All right? All of you. Everyone listening right now. Seriously, you know, three people in a battleground state. Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, North Carolina or Georgia. If you don't know anyone in any of those states, get out there.

[Max Fisher]

Sure you do. Go on Facebook, look at your high school friends. One of them has moved.

[Jon Favreau]

The people that you're trying to stalk on Twitter, now that there's no block.

[Max Fisher]

Function, someone's got to live in. One of these is Glenn Greenwald in a swing state. He's in Brazil. So I can't call.

[Jon Favreau]

And you're going to make sure that they vote. That's the whole important thing. So you scroll through your contacts list, you find the names, you text them, call them, DM them, whatever you got to do. Then do that five more times before election day. We're not kidding. Reminders work. And we're calling it last call. So calling it last call. I didn't really think of the problem there.

[Max Fisher]

But anyway, last call Vote Save America will even give you a script for what to tell them. You go to votesave america.com vote, there's a little script copy if you want.

[Jon Favreau]

To then put that script in notebook.

[Max Fisher]

Lm then have talk about the script a podcast and then play that podcast for your friends so that they will never call you again.

[Jon Favreau]

Votesafeamerica.com vote to get the script and to also if they want to know like what's on their ballot, if they want to plan to vote, votafamerica.com can help them with all that as well. But the important thing is it's last call. Go get Your three friends or three acquaintances or three one time hookups, whatever.

[Max Fisher]

If the only thing you do the next week, you could save democracy.

[Jon Favreau]

That's it. Honestly, then if everyone does that, we're going to win.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

So yeah, go do that. This message has been paid for by VoteSave America. I'm sure they feel like they got their money's worth. You can learn [e-mail] this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. After the break, I talked to the good liars. What the.

[Max Fisher]

What?

[Jon Favreau]

Who?

[Max Fisher]

Whose machine was that?

[Jon Favreau]

Min. Jason Selvig and Davram Stiefler. Welcome to Offline.

[Davram Stiefler]

Hey, thanks for having us.

[Jason Selvig]

For having us.

[Jon Favreau]

So you two got your start trolling bankers at the Occupy Wall street protests. Talk to me about that and how you got from there to the person on the street style MAGA interviews that you do a lot of today.

[Jason Selvig]

Sure, sure. Well, we probably all remember Occupy Wall Street. We saw these protests growing and growing and growing and we thought we should do something kind of funny, kind of poignant there. Without really thinking too far out ahead, we just went to a thrift store and bought some suits, went down there, and we decided to, you know, say that if, if the protesters continued, we were going to have to sell our third houses in the Hamptons. We couldn't have our season Yankees tickets. We couldn't do as much cocaine. That was a big part of our cause. And so we started Occupy Wall street and we went down there a few times. It kind of took on a life of its own. But to your point, it has changed over the years into more of what we do now.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, when we started it, we thought, but we did this video, we thought we were just filming a sketch. And then real investment bankers thought it was real and thought we were investment bankers and then came and joined us in the protests as we were, you know, basically making fun of them to their faces.

[Jon Favreau]

So they were worried about their cocaine.

[Davram Stiefler]

They were, you know what, it's, you gotta make ends meet or ends cocaine or whatever it is.

[Jason Selvig]

So we were selling like 400 cufflinks as a joke, and people were buying them to be like, I'm part of the 1%. They said 1% on them.

[Jon Favreau]

So.

[Jason Selvig]

So it caught on for real, which was the surprising part.

[Jon Favreau]

And then when did you guys start at the Trump rally? Is that 2016?

[Davram Stiefler]

Well, in 2016, we went to our first Trump rally. And, you know, we're, we're comedians and we, we met in the comedy scene here in New York City. And we went there to. We. And we had, like, a prank planned. I can't remember what it was, but we were like, oh, this is funny. We don't know how long he's going to be in the race. He's probably going to drop out soon. Nobody's going to vote for this guy. And then when we were there, the rally was very boring. Like, he kept saying the same things over and over again. And the things that we'd heard on the news over and over again, the crowd size, this, this Jeb Bush, low energy, blah, blah, blah. And we got really bored. And then we realized a funnier prank would be to just yell this is boring to Donald Trump. And we were like, the second row of people right there. And he was like, we were like, cheering along with him as a joke beforehand, and he liked us. And then at a certain point, we were like, this is boring. Tell some jokes. Come on, entertain us. Come on. That's not what we came here for. And he got very, very upset. And it was like, if you. There's a video of it, if you watch it, he. There's a moment where he looks, like, almost hurt. I would say. I don't know if that's possible.

[Jon Favreau]

I remember that video from there.

[Davram Stiefler]

We ended up doing a movie in 2016 where we played characters who, you know, in character. We did pranks on all the politicians, you know, from across the political spectrum. You know, Hillary Clinton as well as Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, all the politicians. And after 2016, I mean, we kind of, like, it was a little bit of a gut punch for us because no one watched our movie after the election because it was so sad. And then we started going to more of these Trump events and talking to people there. We still, you know, that's not the only thing we do now. We still have these political interactions and things like that, but it's now been what we've been doing a lot. Too much, I guess. I don't know.

[Jason Selvig]

Just got back from. Of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the last few weeks, especially, like Jason was talking about our movie, we. We had this idea that we were going to kind of, like, prank people on both sides of the. The aisle. And we did. But at some point, it just the way things have gone over the last few years. And during COVID this was the group of people that were still getting together. This is the group of people that, you know, if you wanted to find 15,000 people that were going to say some interesting things, it was Trump rallies. So that's what we did.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I think you guys recently did one in Pennsylvania. I know you've been doing a lot of these rallies lately. You hear some wild stuff from folks. I think we have a clip. This was a rally in Reading, Pennsylvania.

[Jason Selvig]

Let me ask you a question. Do you think Democrats in this country need to tone down the rhetoric 100%?

[Davram Stiefler]

Yes.

[Jason Selvig]

They're saying things that are too rude and disrespectful and are inflammatory. Too inflammatory. All right, so what does that shirt say again?

[Davram Stiefler]

It says, life's a bitch. Don't vote for one.

[Jason Selvig]

Then there's a picture of Hillary Clinton.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yes. Why would a country want to have a hurricane be strong and hit its own country?

[Jon Favreau]

Because they want to control certain places.

[Davram Stiefler]

And if you're looking at where the hurricane's going, it's a lot of red states. If you're looking at the counties in.

[Jon Favreau]

North Carolina that were hit, there were.

[Davram Stiefler]

All of 26 out of 28 of.

[Jon Favreau]

Those counties were for Trump.

[Jason Selvig]

They're doing whatever they can because they.

[Davram Stiefler]

Can'T rig the election, even control the weather.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Davram Stiefler]

Do you think that we landed on the moon?

[Jon Favreau]

That's. That's a big question.

[Davram Stiefler]

I'm not sure. Do you think the earth is. The earth is round or flat?

[Jon Favreau]

I've been told my whole life it's round.

[Davram Stiefler]

I don't know. What are some other conspiracies? Read the Bible. It says Jesus says to spread the.

[Jon Favreau]

Gospel to the ends of the earth. I don't know.

[Davram Stiefler]

I don't really get into that. But who won the 2020 election?

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, by far. Who's Trump?

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, by far. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

That's an easy one.

[Davram Stiefler]

That was an easy one. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, Devram, here's my question. Is your goal only to amuse and or horrify all of us Trump haters? Mission accomplished, by the way. But who is the intended audience? And what do you. What do you guys hope they get out of it?

[Jason Selvig]

Well, I think we want to get out there. We want to make things that people want to see. We want to amuse and horrify. I guess not just people watching, but ourselves. There's something we're addicted to. I don't know if we have something extra in our brains or we're missing something in our brains, but we do enjoy getting out and doing this. But I think it has been across social media. The fans that we have are across all these different age ranges, but, like, the biggest following we have is on TikTok. So I think we're getting through to younger people, to people that wouldn't ordinarily care about politics, would not think of themselves as involved, and then sometimes will message us like, oh, I never really thought about it until I started watching your videos. But, you know, there's certainly a more cynical side to the whole thing where. Where we'll go to these Trump rallies and someone will be like, oh, I love you guys. We used to think this is great. Maybe they have a sense of humor about what we're doing as well, and there's more common ground. But I think at some point we realize, like, oh, we've just been on their phones, and they're just happy to see someone in person that they've seen on their phones. So, like Donald on tv, right? Yeah, right. The way we got into this mess in some ways. So I think the intended audience is, you know, everybody in that. If you can watch the same thing and laugh at the same thing, then maybe we will find some common ground in this crazy, crazy world. But I don't think we have an end goal, you know, not a perfectly crystallized thing. Like, it's changing. We're changing. We'll see how this all ends up.

[Jon Favreau]

Jason, having talked to Trump fans since. Since 2016, what's the most common reason people have given you guys for supporting him? And do you believe them?

[Davram Stiefler]

You know, the most common reason you hear is, I like Trump. I like Trump. And that I do believe. I do believe that. I think a lot of people, they see Trump and they're like, this is a guy who calls out the bullshit. He says stuff that I wish I could say. I wish I could say to my boss. It's like, I'm a huge professional wrestling fan, and so I've known Trump for a long time, since, you know, WrestleMania 4. That was at Trump Plaza. So Trump is doing pro wrestling stuff. He is doing Stone Cold Steve Austin. It's like a weird, bizarre world because Vince McMahon was the billionaire boss, but he's the billionaire in this situation. But he's saying stuff to the powers that be. He's giving people the middle finger on their behalf. And I think that that's true, and I think it's a thing that Democrats kind of underestimate about Trump, is that he is Trump and nobody else can. Trump like Trump does because he does not give a hell about what he says. He will say whatever he wants to say all the time, and it is authentic. Then you go in. There's other layers to it where you talk to some people and then there's, oh, he gives me an excuse. For any of my problems, because it's immigrants and all, and there's, like, a darker part of it, but it all goes back to the personality. I, that's what draws people to him. Like, yeah, but he gets stuff done. He gets stuff done, which, you know, is not true, really. But they, they think that because he's giving this middle finger, he, he's speaking on their behalf.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I remember I, I watched one of the videos, and you guys, you were interviewing someone and asked him what his favorite Trump policy was of the last four years and stumped him. Really?

[Jason Selvig]

Nothing. It's a tough question.

[Davram Stiefler]

I liked it when he said, is.

[Jon Favreau]

It a tough question?

[Davram Stiefler]

They're eating cats and dogs? I don't know. Yeah, he doesn't.

[Jason Selvig]

I feel like, like, that it's been telegraphed to people that, like, they should avoid talking about his personality. Like, what Jason said, that's what they actually like about him. But somehow they got the memo that we should talk about. We should say it's his policies that we love so much. So that's why it was nice to ask someone what his favorite policy was. And it was just like 30 seconds of like, I, I, I just don't know.

[Jon Favreau]

Got nothing. We heard, obviously, a few wild conspiracies in that cloth clip. You guys have probably heard all the conspiracy theories that exist over the last decade. Why. Why do you think these Trump fans seem so drawn to conspiracy theories, particularly conspiracies like, was the moon landing faked? Is the Earth actually round, that aren't even necessarily political?

[Davram Stiefler]

I don't. You know, it's interesting. We, we went to the Flat Earth convention last year in Las Vegas, Nevada, and I recommend anybody who's out there listening, you should go to. It's great. It's called Flat Toberfest, which is actually like an A plus pun.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Davram Stiefler]

But we went there, and some people, like, weren't political, but most of the people that we talked to were Trump supporters. And it got to the point where I, like, I've become, personally, I think Devron probably too. Like, some of these theories, like, JFK Jr. Is still alive, and he's the acting vice president right now, you know, which we still hear. It's like we're bored by them. We've heard them so many times, and we just, like, try and talk to people and just talk them out of it a little bit, and. Because it's just so out there. But if you look at Trump, Trump, he is a conspiracy theorist. Like, that's. His whole thing is blaming everyone else. For your own problems. So, of course they're going to be drawn to it. So when the election, when he said the election was stolen, that fit right into it, because there are bigger conspiracies here. Of course the election was stolen. If there's like, the Pizza Gate is real and we didn't land on the moon and all. All of this stuff. But I think it's. I think it's like, if you go back and you, like, take a step back and you look at the people, I think some of the people that are drawn to Trump, they maybe have drawn, like, kind of a bad hand sometimes. And the opioid epidemic, legalized heroin, just ravaged their communities. There are real conspiracies that did affect their lives where they are drawn to somebody who looks like he is going to be speaking on their behalf. So part of it is there's a conspiratorial thinking that's. That's there in them and that is, you know, that they're drawn to. But part of it is like, yeah, there is a conspiracy. There are real conspiracies. Real bad things have happened that we can't explain, or when you explain it, it's that they've been taken advantage of and not given the resources to deal with some of these problems in their communities.

[Jason Selvig]

One more thing about the Flat Earth Convention. At one point, a poll was taken in the room, and the speaker said, how many of you out there drink your own pee? And I think 70% of the people in the room raised their hands, so.

[Davram Stiefler]

Your hand was up, too. So, like, you couldn't. Shouldn't be, like.

[Jason Selvig]

And I didn't say pause.

[Davram Stiefler]

All in the kettle black. Okay, all right, all right, all right.

[Jason Selvig]

But it's just, just like, how deep this goes. You, Jason, you touched on the perception is that Trump's giving the middle finger to the establishment, and it's just a simple way you can fight the powers by drinking your own pee. For anyone listening out there.

[Jon Favreau]

I didn't. I didn't. Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't imagine that that would connect with the Flat Earth conspiracy, though. I don't. I don't think I want.

[Jason Selvig]

Man, they all connect.

[Jon Favreau]

I was going to.

[Davram Stiefler]

It's all connected.

[Jon Favreau]

It's all connected. I want to go back to something you mentioned about people coming up to you and sometimes recognize you because they've seen you guys on your phone and then I've seen you guys say that they actually will ask to be interviewed sometimes. Like, what's going on there? Why is that? Because it does seem like there's sort of a dark celebrity for the sake of celebrity thing going on there. That explains, I think, Trump and a lot of the movement.

[Jason Selvig]

It explains Trump and a lot of the movement. Like, like you said, seeing him on, you know, the Apprentice and then being like, this guy is awesome. I don't have to know much more about him than that. I've seen him on tv. So sometimes people will recognize us, and on occasion they'll be like, interview me, interview me. And we, we don't because it's so strange. It's like that becomes this performative thing that, like, why. Why would we bother? We did it one time and we're like, I guess.

[Davram Stiefler]

And he was really turning it on for it, like, saying, like, really out there stuff that I'm like, I don't think you believe this right now. We're not gonna put this out. This is not real right now.

[Jason Selvig]

Yeah, it became too much. It became too strange. It became like too much of a put on. And it felt like all of us were kind of playing a character in our own ways, and it became totally not valuable to anyone in any way. So we always say no. But yes, there are people who come up to us and are like, interview me. Love you guys. And then they get back in line at the rally.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I'm interested in that because it does sort of underscore the nihilism that's like, part of the movement, which is nothing matters except trolling people or getting some attention for trolling people, which, of course is like, much of what characterizes online discourse and especially online discourse on social media among some more extreme people. And there's people who you're like, are they putting on a show? Do they believe their own bullshit or do they know that it's a game? And the same thing is true with Trump, right? It's like sometimes he wants you to know that he's in on the game, that he's in on the joke, which I think can be very effective people. And it's just hard to tell between what's farce and what's something serious that we have to take seriously.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah. I think with Trump, I mean, just look at this. Last week, he's like, at McDonald's giving cheeseburgers and fries and, like, wearing a goofy apron. And you're like, oh, this guy's a clown. Look at this. Like, it's an obvious photo op opportunity. And then also he's, you know, a week earlier, he's like, yeah, I'll use The military against our own people. Like, well, what is what? You know? Because all he does is say things to troll and to move the news cycle. Because it's like, you have to report on him saying, I want to use the military against our own people. You also have to report on the McDonald's thing because it's so ridiculous. But I feel like the perfect example of that is JD Vance had that interview on, I think it was cnn, where he said, if I have to make up a story or whatever, if I have to create a story. An hour later, you know, everyone's talking about this. Of course, this is all online, but the news media is talking about this, too. This interview with J.D. vance. An hour later, Donald Trump's on truth social, all caps. I hate Taylor Swift. Like, that's a plan. Like, I don't think he, like, was like, I gotta say this. I'm planning on saying this. Or he saw something. He was like, this will get people talking about something else. And it worked. It worked. Everybody started talking about Taylor Swift and Donald Trump.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's like half impulse, half strategy.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jon Favreau]

Sort of from his adult brain.

[Davram Stiefler]

His impulse is his strategy.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Davram Stiefler]

Which is like, he's like a child. You know what I mean? Like, I want that, so I'm gonna go for that.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm gonna do it for the people who don't recognize you guys. Like. Like, do they usually figure out that you are not necessarily an ally to. From.

[Jason Selvig]

I think it about 30% of the time, it gets a little tense. Most of the time we're talking, and then, you know, you can talk about some more benign things and you can walk away and it's all good. And sometimes people get upset. In Scranton, Pennsylvania, recently, a guy got really mad at us and he started screaming. These guys are trying to ask tough questions. They're trying to stump us. They're trying to ask tough question. And he got to the point of, like, going and getting a police officer, you know, bringing him over and saying, these guys are trying to ask tough questions. We all just kind of like, stood there looking at the dirt, like. And the cop was like, yeah, no, no, they're definitely allowed to do that. And the guy just like, yeah, kind of like slowly turned around, was like, fine, and, you know, just kind of slowly walked back to his spot in line. So. So, yes, like, you know, people kind of catch on that we're trying to, I don't know, hold up a mirror, I guess, get them to say these things and see if they question them. Most of the Time. It's not tense. And, you know, when it is, whatever, we move on, we talk to someone else.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, one day it was very tense, as you guys, I guess, were at the Capitol on January 6th. Jason, talk about that day in a.

[Davram Stiefler]

Lot of ways that, like, shaped us, like, moving forward as far as, like, going to these events more because of what we experienced. Part of it was the day before, too. We spent the night in a hotel at the yours truly, D.C. in D.C. and it was like, I don't know if you've ever been there. It's like kind of like a hipstreet hotel. And it was just filled with Trump supporters. And that night when we were going to sleep, we heard people screaming, like, at the top of their lungs in the hotel, like, let's go, baby, we're taking it back tomorrow. Let's go. And they were playing, like, loud pump up music all through the night. And we had a moment where we're like, oh, this is gonna be real tomorrow. These are, like, people getting themselves ready for war right now. This is not just people ready for a rally. And so we almost left town. We were leaving town during Trump's speech, and then we saw people going to the Capitol, and we decided to pull over and see what was going on. And we got to the backside of the Capitol, and there was like. It was probably the smaller crowd, but it was like the much more violent crowd. And we just saw these guys beating the shit out of the cops there, the Capitol Police there, and there was a few lines of them, and then after a few moments, they burst through the line and it was like a roar, like, Braveheart roar. When they took it over. And we're sitting there, like, I think both of us had a moment where we're like, how the fuck did we end up here right now? Like, how the fuck did. Like, we were, like, doing these comedy movies, doing this, and now we're like, here at an insert direction in the capital. And we had a pretty scary moment where, like, a group of guys, like, surrounded us when they saw that we had a microphone. And one of the flashbangs at the Capitol went off, and they turned around and Devram and I were like, we're getting the hell out of here. This is. What else are we going to get at this moment? And honestly, it stuck with us because, like, for the. A couple weeks after it, I would wake up in the middle of the night, you know, and just, like, be like, replaying everything, like a little bit of PTSD or whatever. And it did. I Do think it shaped us a little bit going forward, being like, this is what can happen. Like, this is what kind of like, Trump brought us. And what's scary about the 2024 election is he's not apologizing for it, he's making excuses for it. And it almost feels inevitable that it could happen again just because he's painting it as this beautiful day now. So it definitely has shaped us and was. It was not a fun day. I do not recommend going to the Capitol on January.

[Jason Selvig]

Ten stars.

[Davram Stiefler]

It was not a fun day. I think we stopped for some pasta afterwards, and I sold my one share.

[Jason Selvig]

I'll give it one stock or whatever. I was like, everything's going to shit. I gotta.

[Max Fisher]

I don't know.

[Jason Selvig]

I gotta save the 400 I have.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because I've been thinking about this as we get, you know, we're two weeks out now, less than two weeks out from the election. And, you know, you were talking about sort of the juxtaposition of him at McDonald's and him talking about using the military against American citizens. And one of his advisors did an interview with Semaphore where they were like, well, part of our strategy is to, you know, have him at McDonald's and put him on these podcasts where he's joking around because he can't really seem like a threat if he's laughing and joking around. And on the flip side, there's been this sort of debate within the Democratic Party about how do we deal with Trump, right? Do we mock him and make fun of him because knowing that strong men don't like to be mocked? Or do we warn people that he is a wannabe dictator who's a threat to the country and risk people seeing him and be like, is he really, though? He's kind of old and kooky. Where do you guys fall on that?

[Jason Selvig]

I think somewhere right in the middle. Like, we're trying. I think we go out there to talk to these people, and there's a certain amount of kind of like, trying to kind of mock Trump and get under his skin by talking to his supporters. But it's about serious things. So ideally, people, you know, are laughing at him and also realizing that he's a genuine threat through the interactions that we're having. So I think that it really is a catch 22, because it's so silly. Some of the stuff he does is so silly. And then it gets so serious. Like, there was the. The funniest oldest woman on. On January 6th who had made her own flag that said treason on it. And it was just like cute almost in its own way. She was like there and she was so happy. And it said treason. And on the other side it said 1776. 2.0. And. And then we saw photographs from inside the Capitol and the flag is all torn and the. And the flag pole is all bent up and it's in the halls of the Capitol. And I just think about that when I think about all of this, like, it is so kind of silly and kind of non threatening and then it gets so real so fast. Yeah. So I think both of those things have to be acknowledged.

[Davram Stiefler]

Durab. I just thought about the January 5th in the Freedom Plaza. Alex Jones spoke there. And Alex Jones gave like this, like, he, like, was moving his fists like Hitler, like, and screaming. And it was really scary. He's like, we will never back down. Never, ever, ever.

[Jason Selvig]

It's war.

[Davram Stiefler]

And then right after it, Roger Stone came out with a rap group rapping. Roger Stone did nothing wrong. And the whole crowd's going like this.

[Jason Selvig]

He had a pinstripe and I was like, this thing of Trump.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, he was dancing. It's so ridiculous. Everything's so ridiculous. And then you have the darkest thing you've ever seen in your life happen, and five minutes before it, and everyone in the crowd is like, this is normal. This is a totally normal.

[Jason Selvig]

We went from looking at each other like, should we get out of here? Like, this is really scary. To being like, all right, that's a jam right there.

[Davram Stiefler]

All right. And he lied about the emails. It's a good song, actually. I like that song.

[Jon Favreau]

Amuse. Amusing ourselves to death.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, literally.

[Jon Favreau]

Where are you guys going to be on election night? Are you anywhere near Trump and Trump supporters?

[Jason Selvig]

Well, in 2016, cautionary tale. Don't go to Trump Tower on election night. 2016, we got in to Trump Tower. We're in the bar and we thought, maybe we'll see Trump after he loses. Maybe we'll say something funny. And then so we're watching Fox News in the bar at Trump Tower and it slowly dawns on us that, like, he's going to win. And, like, the joke is on us a little bit. And so we just had to like, sulk out of there at, like 11pm so not at Trump Tower. I know that we will not be there.

[Davram Stiefler]

Oh, I was going to say we should go back to Trump Tower. All right, you convinced me.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump Tower it is.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, let's all meet there. It'll be fun.

[Jon Favreau]

And then you guys go back to D.C. for January 6th. Perfect.

[Davram Stiefler]

Yeah, the whole calendar planned out for us. It's great.

[Jon Favreau]

Jason Selvage, Big Devon Stiefler, thank you guys so much for joining. And everyone go check out the good liars on YouTube. Fantastic videos and appreciate what you guys do.

[Davram Stiefler]

Thanks for having us.

[Jason Selvig]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

Offline is a crooked media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fish Fisher and Emma Ilock. Frank Jordan Cantor is our sound editor. Charlotte Landis is our engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, Reed Sherland, and Adrian Hill for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Delon Villanueva, who film and share our episodes as videos.