Will Sommer (9:14)

Thanks for having me.

Jon Favreau (9:16)

I want to start today talking about who Charlie Kirk was and what he meant to the MAGA movement. I'm very familiar with his work. You certainly are. But I feel like some of our listeners, particularly listeners who are not in his target demographic, may not quite understand how important he was to the MAGA movement and to mega media. You wrote last week, more than anyone else with the surname Trump, Kirk is the figure whose rise best illustrates the changing of the American right. Talk a little bit about that.

Will Sommer (9:50)

Yeah. I mean, Charlie Kirk was a guy who really came from obscurity over his. His 13 years in politics. He's someone who started kind of a young Rush Limbaugh fan who decided to try to adapt that kind of mix of entertainment and politics to his generation. And he launched Turning Point USA a little before Trump ran for office as sort of like a campus a young people conservative group and then ultimately sort of amassed this real empire in a way of sort of organiz and get out the vote as well as kind of like a media empire with his podcast and talk radio show. And so he was sort of a unique figure even within the right. I mean, obviously we're used to these kind of right wing media figures who also play in politics, but he was a confidant of the Trump family. He raised millions and millions of dollars. He had a huge staff behind him as well as a big media microphone. So he was a very influential guy and had really sort of was almost like a surrogate for the Trump family in terms of what would, what they would and wouldn't allow in in the MAGA movement.

Jon Favreau (10:52)

Yeah, it did seem to me from the outside that, you know, there are some MAGA media types and influencers who are, I guess, for lack of a better word, very establishment because now MAGA is the establishment of the party. And then there are some who will, you know, sort of say their own thing, disagree with the president once in a while here and there. And it seems like Kirk was very much within the MAGA establishment.

Will Sommer (11:18)

Yeah, I mean, you know, the moment that springs to mind is over the summer when the DOJ tried to close the Epstein case. And people like Charlie Kirk, Megan Kelly, they went out there and they were like, look, we love Trump, but even we want answers. That lasted about three or four days. And then Trump calls Charlie Kirk and says, cut it out, it's over. And then Charlie Kirk comes, comes back that Monday and says, I'm sick of talking about Epstein, we're moving on.

Jon Favreau (11:41)

Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about Turning Point USA, which Kirk started in 2012 when he was 18. Can you talk about the founding of that organization and specifically how it differed from other Republican youth organizations of that time period?

Will Sommer (12:00)

Yeah, I mean, Turning Point usa, you know, Charlie Kirk had a real gift even as a very young man for raising a lot of money and sort of getting donors to see these kind of elderly donors, usually to see him as sort of a beloved nephew or grandson who could adapt conservatism in kind of a more entertaining. And you know, I hesitate to say cool here because I'm not saying like these, like, are. Are the coolest, I think, to the average young person, but for young people who are at all interested in politics, I mean, they were able to brand it as, I think, a much more lively and a contemporary kind of answer to what it is to be a young conservative. I mean, some of its rival organizations, like The Young Americas Foundation, Young American Americans for Freedom. They, I mean, they were just. It's a lot of blazers. It's very cpac. Look, it's kind of Alex P. Keaton. You look at what Turning Point USA created. And it was these, these conferences where there would be some kind of like mini scandal, often about like a hookup or a fight. If you look at like Benny Johnson giving his speeches, there's pyrotechnics. I mean, in the, in a lot of. It's the, the images that TPUSA has used to memorialize Charlie. He's surrounded by like big fireworks or explosions. And that really was the vibe that it was, you know, usually in like Miami or like some Sunbelt kind of fun city to visit. And, and so in that way, I think it just made the idea of like, kind of being a conservative foot soldier seemed like a lot more enticing of a lifestyle than it had been.

Jon Favreau (13:20)

And when did he start the, the college debates? Going to college campuses and debating. And when did, when did that whole thing come about and how did it come about?

Will Sommer (13:29)

Yeah, I mean, I think that was right. Really right around, around when Trump started running for office, around like 2016, 2015. And, you know, he wasn't the only person to have done this stuff. I mean, people may remember the big meme with Steven Crowder sitting at the table saying, you know, change my mind or prove me wrong. But really it sort of became Charlie Kirk's signature tactic, I guess. And look, he would go to these debates, this would produce these media moments of Charlie Kirk owns blue haired Social justice warrior. And it's something that I think, particularly in the first Trump administration, we saw a lot of conservatives poking these progressive universities by showing up on campus. Steven Crowder, Milo Yiannopoulos, people like that. But I would say it really became Charlie Kirk's thing.

Jon Favreau (14:12)

Most famously, I've heard from some folks on the left who, you know, criticizing people who said that they were just, you know, he's just a good debater who's just go out there and just hold these debates. And that was, you know, sort of upholding free speech, that the debates were, to put it politely, advantageous for Kirk in the way they were set up. Is that, is there truth to that or what, what was it about the format of the debates that always had him sort of owning the libs?

Will Sommer (14:39)

Well, you know, I mean, it, it's sort of like anything, any talk radio show or anything. I mean, this is a guy, he has the mic, you know, his staff controls Access to the, the mics. He's in the position, power. And again, I mean, you know, this is a guy who is not always taking on, you know, professional debaters like himself. I mean, these are often college students who are nervous, you know, in front of all their peers or anything. But I do think, you know, a lot of the footage that has, you know, resurfaced after the assassination shows him, you know, it's not like, you know, screaming at these kids, often coming off as empathetic, you know, but, but of course, I mean, ultimately like the, the point there was was I think not to, to have him get owned, you know, by college students, but rather it was, it was to sort of embolden conservative students win over independence and I think also to kind of create these, these social media friendly moments.

Jon Favreau (15:24)

You, I think, noted last week that Kirk also helped lay the groundwork for Trump to, to really embrace the manosphere in the, in the 2024 election. How did that come about?

Will Sommer (15:37)

Yeah, I mean, Charlie Kirk was, you know, in the aftermath of the assassination, I think it's become clear that he was a guy who was known not just within political media, but was sort of a figure and sort of a meme in his own way, as outside of that, I mean, he was very big on TikTok. You know, he would go on these podcasts that are sort of apolitical, like bros hanging out, cultural podcasts. And so in that way, I mean, I think that both expanded his brand, but it also sort of showed the way for people like Trump. J.D. vance, that, that you could, that there was an advantage in, in reaching out to these groups that frankly, I mean, I think we're not really engaged, ready to give him the most scrutiny of his talking points. But, but he was, he was obviously someone, I think, who came across well on video, on podcasts.

Jon Favreau (16:19)

Our, our friend Peter Hamby wrote a piece about how he was, you know, recognized on college campuses and mentioned that Generation Lab found that Kirk was almost universally known among college kids. 94% of students had heard of him, which is just, you know, as Peter notes, a remarkable level of name ID for any political figure. And then the next set of data is most college students were not fans. And a combined 70% of students said they were either strongly disagree or somewhat disagree with Kirk's views. Only 30% said they agreed. Does that feel right from your sort of reporting both on the name ID and sort of the split on the college campuses?

Will Sommer (17:03)

You know, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, as you said, that's an enormous amount of name recognition, you know, for anyone shocking, particularly someone who is sort of otherwise sort of a conservative activist and sort of debate figure. But to be that well known. And I think he's also, you know, someone who recognized like Trump that, you know, even bad attention can be, can redound to your benefit. I mean, this is a guy whose organization went through a lot of like real high profile disasters initially. You know, there was this, this protest where students dressed up in a diaper to sort of dress, you know, symbolize crybaby liberals, you know, and a lot of like the operatives within TPUSA turned out to be racist, that this would kind of resurface these like racist text messages and stuff. But again, I mean, he kept building this organization and I think he also frankly was a guy who I think a lot of liberals saw as annoying, kind of this, maybe like a pipsqueak, although a very tall guy, but sort of this, you know, kind of this, this kind of nerd type perhaps. And I think a lot of people didn't take him seriously on the left. And, and I think we saw with the most recent Trump election by then Turning Point USA had, had grown into this real behemoth politically.

Jon Favreau (18:10)

And did he have rivalries within the MAGA movement with or, or across the right?

Will Sommer (18:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think what's really emerging after this assassination, and in particular just the past few days, is he was, you know, he was not seen as like a universally beloved figure before his death. And I think, you know, in the aftermath, obviously people were, I think of all types were mourning him and upset by his murder. But, you know, it's also worth noting that, you know, he was seen as again, a very establishment figure who's gonna run sort of with whatever the Trump line was for the most part. And then, you know, Nick Fuentes, the white nationalist PODC I think would be his kind of most famous foil. Someone who's almost, I described him earlier today as sort of just a more evil Charlie Kirk. I mean he's a obviously a more racist, anti Semitic, he was at Charlottesville, but both like very young guys who were these kind of podcasters and who had their own sort of audiences and fan base. And you know, this sort of climaxed In, I believe, 2019 when Charlie Kirk had said he was very open to, you know, anyone who graduates from an American university from another country should get a green card to, to stay. And so this is a very kind of like Jeb Bushy and model of immigration or Mitt Romney and Nick Fuentes, of course, who's a racist, said, oh, you know, this is awful. We need to, we're taking people from India, et cetera. And so his fans start crashing Turning Point events. And Turning Point, like Dan Crenshaw is getting shouted down. And Turning Point turned out to basically have no way to stop this. And so instead, Charlie Kirk, I think you made this decision to basically say, okay, well I'm going to become much more hawkish on immigration up to this year. He's saying there needs to be a ban on even legal immigration from the third world, which, you know, I think we can read as non white countries. So he, he was very much also, I would say, like a player who was, who was sort of shifting with the wind and subject to the same dynamics that, you know, any other right wing media figure is.

Jon Favreau (20:02)

Yeah, I, I noticed that too in sort of looking back on his, his journey on the right, which is that he, I don't know if he became more radicalized, but he certainly more mirrored some of his, some of his now most famous rhetoric that's been going around. Certainly mirrored the far right more than it did, I think, earlier in his career.

Will Sommer (20:25)

Yeah, I mean, this is a guy who came up originally as sort of a Tea Party, you know, young Republican Marco Rubio figure. And I think he recognized that, you know, Trump was the direction the party was headed in. And, you know, he could have stood against that and probably, you know, had his organization dwindle into irrelevance or, you know, he, he obviously decided to get very close with the Trump family. And I think particular his tone in the second Trump administration. You know, I think like the Republican Party in general became much harsher, much more hawkish.

Jon Favreau (21:01)

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Jon Favreau (23:29)

So I want to talk about the aftermath of the assassination, especially the reaction from the right. We are recording this a week after the assassination. What do you make of the rage and declarations of war coming from MAGA influencers and media figures and politicians as well on the right compared to other moments like butler or 2020?

Will Sommer (23:57)

Yeah, I mean, I would say like the level of rage and this desire for revenge is really, really high. And you know, I'd say like more so than Butler or perhaps even the election loss in 2020, although, you know, I mean, they did January 6th. Um, it, it's, it's there. I think there's a real desire for revenge. Um, you know, I'm seeing people say there, there's a lot of kind of distractions going on. I think the right is a little unclear about which direction it wants to go in. Um, I feel like there's sort of a sense almost of, I think they really wanted the suspect to turn out to be like a blue haired social justice warrior type. And even though, you know, we're seeing these police statements, these messages that suggest, you know, he, he was coming from some sort of like LGBT rights point of view, from what we've seen so far, um, I think it's still like a little muddled, that people seem kind of mad about it. And so to that effect, we're seeing people like Steve Bannon, a lot of really prominent Republican figures say, you know, there has to be more to this story, the FBI has to be covering something up. And you know, nevertheless, I think the Trump administration is very focused on the goal here, which is using this as sort of a pretext to do some kind of like Viktor Orban style crushing of left wing institutions.

Jon Favreau (25:08)

And it does seem like they, they were planning that long before this happened. And I mean, I guess, I think Stephen Miller said that like Charlie Kirk's last text to him was, you got to go after these radical left NGOs or something, something to that effect.

Will Sommer (25:26)

There's a lot of people who are saying, you know, Charlie Kirk's last wish to me was insert my policy goal, you know, here. And, and, but you're right, I mean, even before this happened, obviously the Trump administration was going after universities or liberal law firms, things like this, you know, cowing media companies. But I do think here they, they really see an opportunity. I mean, we saw Pam Bondi saying, you know, we, we, we're going to have hate crimes, we're going to pursue these hate crimes. And, and, and so I think there's this effort. It's still a little vague at this point. I mean, we're seeing people even kind of emerging from right wing media to say, like, well, I've come up with a way that you could go after George soros. We saw J.D. vance complaining he's going to pursue whoever funds the Nation magazine because they wrote an unflattering article about Charlie Trump Kirk. I mean, so I think it's still really early days in terms of what they would get up to, but I mean, it's obviously very disturbing the language they're using.

Jon Favreau (26:14)

I was talk about the Bannon thing again because I, I, it was interesting to me, you know, once they read the texts yesterday when they charged him between the killer and his romantic partner and, and then they, you know, put out the charging document, it was the, the evidence is there for everyone to see. There's a little bit of A horseshoe theory thing going on where, like, there are some folks on the, on the, on the left who are like, the texts aren't real. They doctored the texts. And then you also got that from Steve Bannon and some folks on the right that they're not real because they want it to be. The right wants it to be a larger conspiracy than just one person. And the left doesn't, you know, want it to be someone who has, you know, progressive views on LGBT issues. What can you talk about some of the other conspiracies? Well, also that conspiracy, but also some of the other conspiracies on the right that have popped up around Charlie Kirk's assassination. Because I also know there's a, there's like an Israel thing going on.

Will Sommer (27:14)

Yeah, the Israel thing is really hot right now. Yeah. I mean, basically, I think the key thing to understand here is that the support for Israel is sort of like maybe along with Jeffrey Epstein, although even that is kind of fading away. I think a lot of young Republicans have kind of decided that, but they're cool with hiding whatever in the files about Trump. But, but I think that Israel is sort of like the dividing line in sort of the, the Young Maga movement and in right wing media more broadly. And so you're seeing, even initially after the assassination, there were, there were people saying, you know, whose issue is. They're always critical of Israel and they're saying maybe it was the Mossad, it looked like a professional hit, whatever. But now we're seeing, and I'm writing about this, my newsletter. I mean, it's sort of, in the past few days, it's become sort of a, an Omni feud. It's like the right is aflame. I mean, Charlie Kirk, as far as I know, hasn't even been buried. We haven't had the funeral. And yet we're seeing this just like there's this scrabbling for control of his legacy. And so you see people like Candace Owens, who is friends with him and is very anti Semitic. You're seeing Tucker Carlson, who's very critical of Israel, Megyn Kelly, who's like, weirdly, I think she sees which way the wind is blowing and she's jumped on the Israel critical train. They're all saying, or they're, you know, Charlie was, he was getting mad about Israel. He was starting to voice his concerns. And then these donors, you know, Tucker Carlson was saying, these donors are really giving him heat. They wanted Tucker Carlson banned from Turning Point conferences. I mean, and that's true. And so, but There's a lot, there's like a huge amount of drama related to like, what does the legacy of Charlie Kirk really mean? Who has a claim to it? And really, I mean, also who's going to control Turning Point usa?

Jon Favreau (28:48)

Right, right. I mean, there's. But I think Tommy brought this up on, on Positive America, but that like, conspiracies about Israel being involved got reached such a fever pitch that like, Netanyahu was asked about it.

Will Sommer (29:00)

Yeah, Netanyahu was asked about it and he said, you know, it's ridiculous. I mean, there's this weird, there's also like a weird thing at play here where the Netanyahu is like incredibly involved in the American right wing podcast scene. And so he's like meeting with people like, Tim Pool clearly cares very. It's like you're, you're, you know, you're, you're launching military attacks in all these different countries. Yeah. And you're meeting with the Nel Court boys. You know, in this case, he basically, Tucker Carlson seems to have been very offended that net Netanyahu talked about, you know, Charlie Kirk's devotion to Israel and felt that, you know, the Kirk legacy was being hijacked. I mean, Carlson brought this up with JD Vance when they were like kind of filling in on the Charlie Kirk show or JD Vance was. And so, I mean, this is like a really live issue. Bill Ackman's been pulled into it because they, you know, Candace Owens has claimed she, he was threatening Charlie Kirk over Israel. So it's. And again, I mean, we are talking a week after this shocking, bloody assassination. And so I think there are a lot of people on the right who have been sort of shocked by like the scrabbling for, for advantage that's already taking place.

Jon Favreau (30:04)

One other thing that's happening on the right after Trump and Vance and Bondi have all come out and said they're doing this crackdown is much like after the, when the Epstein thing blew up. You have some people, some MAGA figures saying, what is this attack on free speech? I don't like this. And criticizing Bondi for it. Is that, how do you see that? Is that like, do you think that has some staying power? Do you think it'll be like Epstein where, you know, a week later when they just go after some left wing free speech, they're going to be like, oh, no, that's okay, we're back on board. Or do you think there are figures on the right who are so deeply invested in free speech that they are going to continue criticizing this Administration.

Will Sommer (30:48)

You know, I think it may be like the Epstein thing in that I think some qualms will continue to persist for sort of the, the Trumpian grassroots or conservatives or sort of Trump leaning independents, people who are saying, you know, this isn't really what America was about. On the other hand, I think these right wing media figures, like, with Epstein will fall in line. I mean, they're really thirsty for some kind of, like a show trial or some kind of crackdown that destroys at least a couple, you know, liberal nonprofits, something like, you know, I think Pam Bondi's mistake was phrasing it in a way that Republicans have been taught to fear hate crime laws or hate speech laws. And so they said, whoa, wait, you know, that's about us, maybe. Whereas, you know, one Maha guy I follow, I thought it was funny, he was saying, you know, whoa, whoa, hate speech, let's not talk. That's not American. We want purges, we want roundups. You know, I mean, they are seeing, they want, like, there's like, it's like that, that's, that's a trigger phrase for them. And they don't like that. They want things like, I mean, we saw Laura Loomer say, you know, Trump said he wants to be dictator. And I think, you know, that might be a good idea. So, I mean, there's this sense that they have a lot of political capital, but there, there's a bit of a disagreement about how to use it.

Jon Favreau (32:07)

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Jon Favreau (34:19)

When Vance was hosting Charlie Kirk's podcast, he said, quote, it's a statistical fact that most of the lunatics in American politics today are proud members of the far left. You're an expert in and extremism.

Will Sommer (34:31)

That doesn't seem like a statistical fact. I mean, as someone who has has made his career covering many people who that could be classified as lunatics, I would say the right has more than its fair share.

Jon Favreau (34:42)

Yeah, I did think it was interesting when he went on to say, sure, we have some crazies on our side of the aisle. We, of course we do. I was going to be like someone should ask him a follow up on that one.

Will Sommer (34:51)

See if you can say anyone. Well, you know, I think someone pointed out that, you know, amid this Republican complaint about, you know, calling Donald Trump Nazis, etc that JD Vance obviously once, I believe called Trump a Nazi or Hitler.

Jon Favreau (35:04)

Yeah.

Will Sommer (35:04)

Before making his MAGA turn.

Jon Favreau (35:06)

Sure did. And RFK Jr. I think too. So we're learning more about the shooter. We learned something from authorities on Tuesday. I think there was some thought on the left early on that the killer might be part of the groiper movement. This does not seem to be the case now. But just for people to understand this, what is a groiper? Where did these theories come from? Which are now I think gone, but who knows?

Will Sommer (35:40)

Yeah, I mean, I hope this day would never come that I would have to explain to the offline audience what a groiper is. But yeah, I mean, Groiper. So people remember Pepe the Frog. So followers of Nick Fuentes and sort of general, like Gen Z racists online around 2018, they got sort of a version of Pepe the Frog, who was like a fatter toad. And he would hold his kind of look like this, he would sort of suspend his hands looking very smug. And that's groiper. And so they started to call themselves Groipers. And so the idea is you're a hardcore Nick Fuentes follower. And as I mentioned, you know, there was this thing where Nick Fuentes, I mean, up until, you know, up until the assassination, Nick Fuentes was very critical of Charlie Kirk. You know, he was saying, you know, that this guy is a real nemesis of the Groipers. And so after the assassination, I think a lot of people on the left, not unreasonably, I think, thought, well, you know, maybe it was a groiper. But really there's really no evidence, evidence of that. I mean, people point to this, how he dressed up as this Slavic squat meme and people say, well, that's a Pepe thing. It's not really a Pepe thing. I mean, you can, you can really get into the weeds on that. But I really just, even before we saw the, the messages between the roommate and the suspect, I really just think there is basically zero evidence. And I think it was a lot of, you know, look, I don't blame people on the left for like really hoping, you know, after this happened that it was someone on the right because we're seeing the Trump administration use this as a pretext to seemingly criminalize like half of politics.

Jon Favreau (37:05)

Politics.

Will Sommer (37:06)

But, you know, I do think having gone through the evidence we have, I, I just don't think is there.

Jon Favreau (37:11)

And the engravings on the bullets, that was another thing that people were trying to go one way or the other or trying to figure out ideology. What, what do you know? I mean, groiper or not, what do you know from sort of your coverage of these right wing spaces, whether it's on Discord, whether it's gamers, wherever else, where the places are where they overlap with either, you know, far left views or maybe just people who are nihilist in nature or anarchists. Like, are there, what are the corners of the Internet where you might find people who. It may be hard to tell what their actual ideological alliance is.

Will Sommer (37:53)

Yeah, I mean, these are worlds that are very awash in memes, in irony, sort of triple, quadruple layers of irony. You know, it. A lot of video game talk. You know, I mean, for example, like some of the messages on the, the bullet casings were from the game Helldivers 2. Well, you know, I think people took that well. That's a griper favorite. I mean, that's like a popular game. I have that game. You know, there's nothing sinister specifically about that game. And so I think, you know, we're talking about like places like 4chan. You know, Discord obviously has figured prominently here, which is sort of like slack for, you know, people who are too young to have jobs perhaps. And you know, it's you chat with your gamer buddies. As we've seen from the chat logs from the Discord, the suspects discord that have come out, it's a lot of kind of like just, you know, shooting with your pals and then suddenly this suspect says, you know, by the way, I shot Charlie Kirk. And so it's the, I think a lot of the confusion about the suspect's motives. Admittedly there hasn't been a ton to go on, particularly up until the indictment yesterday. But I think a lot of the confusion, it just, I think a lot of it is just kind of like young male Internet culture in terms of the memes that I think are pretty inscrutable for people outside of it.

Jon Favreau (39:05)

You mentioned this earlier, but I just want to follow up before we go. What do you think happens to Turning Point and, and is there some kind of inter maga struggle for who takes over and the direction it heads or.

Will Sommer (39:18)

I mean, this is a huge, I mean this is like maybe like the biggest issue facing right wing media and even the Trump administration, you know, for the next couple months. I mean, I think obviously there's been understandably an effort to. There's been a lot of focus on Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk. The. There's no like clear successor. I mean, there are people who sort of came up under him, like Benny Johnson, Candace Owens, although she's not coming back. But she's almost, as I said, she's kind of doing her own parallel claim to his legacy. But I think ultimately, I mean, we're talking about millions of dollars, tons of young activists, and I think a lot is going to shake out. You know, I'm hearing grumblings about this big stadium memorial service, you know, who's getting. Speaking Eng, you know, whatever. But I think, you know, to be. To be frank, I think there's a possibility that this organization is kind of adrift and, you know, perhaps some donors are going to step up and assert it, But a lot of that, it's like, you can have a lot of money, but, you know, you. Are you going to bring that Charlie Kirk audience? Are you going to have that credibility? And the last thing I would add here is, like, it's very closely watched. Who is getting close to Turning Point in the aftermath here? For example, Ben Shapiro broadcast from Charlie Kirk studio earlier this week with kind of the Daily Wire Gang. And obviously, he's very pro Israel. And so this has been taken as a sign of, you know, oh, no, Israel's taking over Turning Point usa. We saw Marjorie Taylor Greene insane. She's. She says, you know, this is a Christian. This is a Christian organization. We can't allow another religion to take it over. I mean, there's a lot of. I mean, I'm going on here, but, like, there's a lot of religion stuff at play here, too, specifically because Charlie Kirk was a Protestant. And so you have Candace Owens really randomly basically saying not only was he about to become critical of Israel, but he was also really close to converting to Catholicism. And so, you know, there's this Jewish aspect as well. And so there's just like, a lot of tension and kind of back and forth about what it meant to be Charlie Kirk and what he would have wanted.

Jon Favreau (41:13)

Yeah, I mean, look, I put this the right way. Obviously, a lot of the people in that movement who knew Charlie Kirk and were close to him are devastated by this. It. It also seems like it's only been a week and this assassination is. Is being seen by many people on the right and within the MAGA movement as a way to, like you said, stake their claim to his legacy or, or do something that they had wanted to do previously or make a point at an argument they were trying to make previously. And it's. I just, it makes me wonder about, like, how the legacy plays out and sort of, like the staying power of the sort of unified rage that they feel right now.

Will Sommer (41:56)

Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of people on the right who would prefer to see this used as some kind of quasi fascist crackdown who are getting very frustrated with the Israel critics who are saying, you know, like, this is our chance to arrest George Soros or something on some pretext. And you guys are making it about Gaza and Netanyahu and you're kind of like taking oxygen out of our scheme. I mean, this is, and people are saying this like quite explicitly. They're like, this is our chance to crush the left. What are you doing? And you know, ultimately, I think this can, this can seem a little kind of factional and like, why are we so focused on these internecine fights? But I mean, this is, is a lot of, this is the Trump administration. I mean, a lot of this is sort of the future of politics here. And so I, I think you have these big personalities bumping up against each other in this, like, incredibly emotionally charged moment.

Jon Favreau (42:40)

Well, Summer, your reporting on this is, is excellent as always. Thanks for coming by. False Flag is your newsletter. Everyone should go subscribe at the Bulwark and do a lot of great stuff there as well. So thanks for joining.

Will Sommer (42:51)

Thanks for having me.

Jon Favreau (42:52)

After the break, my producer Austin joins me so we can answer some questions. Offline is brought to you by Smalls. In today's political climate, one thing's certain. Your cat is running a dictatorship. And their first executive order. They want our next sponsor, Smalls, for every meal. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. To get 60% off your first order plus free shipping, head to smalls.com offline for a limited time only. Here's a review from a real Smalls customer. Elizabeth C. Said, my cat was always so so with her usual food, but she's very enthusiastic about Smalls. Her breath is much better and she poops much less frequently and it does not smell disgusting like it used to. Congrats. Elizabeth C. Smalls works with the Humane World for Animals. They've donated over a million dollars worth of food to help cats and they even give you a chance to donate at checkout. Whether you donate $5 for flea and tick medications or $7 for vaccines. Now you can add other cat favorites like amazing treats and snacks to your Smalls order. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they'll refund you if your cat won't eat their food. What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve. For a limited time only because you are an offline with Jon Favreau listener, you can get 60% off your first Smalls order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com offline. That's 60% off when you head to smalls.com offline/free shipping. Again, that's smalls.com offline.

Nordstrom Announcer (44:29)

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Austin Fisher (45:04)

John, you want to tell us what we're doing here real quick?

Jon Favreau (45:06)

We're answering some questions.

Austin Fisher (45:07)

We're answering a couple of questions.

Jon Favreau (45:09)

Love to answer questions.

Austin Fisher (45:10)

So basically after the little summer conversation, I wanted to ask you a couple questions, ask some questions from the discord. Just kind of get your take of how you are feeling in our new political environment. So I just wanna start with last week and then again today on this show. You started both of the shows saying that one of the reasons you've been so shaken up about the killing of Charlie Kirk is that he spoke to people who cared about politics and then organized them, which is the work that you are also doing. It's the work that we do here at Crooked Media. I'm just curious, like overall, how has this changed just your approach to this work? How are you feeling overall? Are you anxious? Like do things feel different to this new environment for you?

Jon Favreau (45:48)

Yeah, I started anxious and worried and then as the week has progressed I have become angrier and frustrated. Would be the new in particular with anyone. Well, angry at this government. Right. Angry at the Trump administration. Infuriated that they are using this as a very flimsy pretext to launch a crackdown. And so, so I think like, I think this was already planned but I think this is accelerating it in a big way. Frustrated. And I, you know, obviously mentioned this in the open but the, it's weird, I feel like I, when, when people not don't justify violence or celebrate violence because like I said, I don't, I have not encountered those people thankfully though I have seen them out there but even think maybe violence is necessary soon and I don't know. And again, no one should be made to feel anything about Charlie Kirk that they don't already feel. Right. Like, your feelings are your feelings. So screw that debate. But, like, you know, we're trying to bring down an authoritarian regime. We're trying to oppose them, we're trying to keep this country together. And some of the debates, some of the back and forth about violence and this and that, it's just it. Again, I'm not mad at the people. I'm not even frustrated with the people. I'm, like, frustrated with myself. And I was like, I feel like this is the, the core of what I have wanted to get across to people for so long. And clearly it is not working. Yeah, which is why I tried to double down to that.

Austin Fisher (47:32)

After reading your intro before we jumped in here, I really wanted to ask how much of the reaction, both on the left and on the right, are you attributing to, like, social media algorithms? It feels to me that this moment, more than any other moment, has really been dictated by our political discourse happening online rather than offline. I feel like even just five years ago in like, a pre Elon Musk Twitter, like, the reaction would not be this. Do you feel the same way?

Jon Favreau (47:57)

Yes. And I, I, I think it's a, a key point. And thank you for bringing it up because I've been thinking this week that we talk on this show so much about, like, the algorithms and social media and what it's doing to the discussion online, and our public debate is mediated through these platforms. And so the debate is a mess. But sometimes I worry that we leave people the impression that it is all just happening online. Clearly, the reaction we're seeing, the murder itself, is a result of bad things that have been happening online for quite a while are now bleeding into real life and sort of changing people, changing people's perceptions of the world of politics, of what is acceptable, of what is not acceptable. The one thing I didn't mention in the open that I probably meant to was that, and we mentioned it on PSA briefly, but I keep thinking about that G. Elliot Morris, who's a polling analyst, and he has a substack, so you can check it out, but he talked about this study where you ask people, do you think political violence is justified? And then you get the answer, and then you say, okay, what percentage of the other party do you think believes political violence is justified? And they give their percentage, and they always overestimate what the percentage is on the other party. And the key is when they know the information of just what percentage the other party actually believes in political violence, their penchant for political violence goes down. So part of the reason people think it's okay is because they think the other side wants it, when in reality, we are spinning each other up because the only people we see on social media or on TV are the people who are, you know, most extreme.

Austin Fisher (49:46)

Yeah. One thing that I've also wanted to ask you is you open this up, talking about, like, turning down the heat on this rhetoric and pushing people back against political violence. We are seeing the president, the Vice President, Stephen Miller, just kind of like, accelerate and throw gasoline on a lot of this rhetoric. Do you think it's possible in this kind of, like, social media, media environment and without the support of the president to turn down this rhetoric right now? And, like, what kind of work is it going to take from us to turn down the heat?

Jon Favreau (50:15)

The reason that I focus so much on violence is because I think the turn the rhetoric down thing is bullshit. And like, I want to be honest, I think I have been. I do think this is an authoritarian regime. I think he has broken the law. I think he is violating the spirit of the Constitution, if not the letter of the Constitution. I am very concerned, and I do not think that saying those things is in any way sort of increasing the possibility for violence. But I think for all of us who believe that too, you have to be pretty clear, not just because of Charlie Kirk, what happened to Charlie Kirk, but always that we are facing an authoritarian threat. We believe that the best way to oppose it is through nonviolent resistance. Like, sounds maybe academic, maybe it sounds simple, maybe it sounds obvious to people. I think it is. Is worth keeping that framework in your mind so that when you are saying things, posting things, whatever else you can think. Okay, does it fit within that framework of, you know, nonviolent resistance? Okay. If it does, great.

Austin Fisher (51:21)

What kind of nonviolent resistance do you want to see more of, like, right now from people? How do you want to see people get more active, not online, but like, in real life?

Jon Favreau (51:31)

I mean, I think. Well, I'll start with online, though, because I do think that, again, for better or worse, and we think worse, this is where our public debate is mediated online. I do think that people, Everyone has a platform. Everyone has the ability to go online and make their opinions known and to talk to their friends, to talk to their social network. And I think that people who have. People who are also worried about the place we're in right now and who also don't want violence.

Austin Fisher (52:01)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (52:01)

But who are. Have turned away from politics because for a number of really good reasons, I think it's a good time for those people to speak up. Good time for those people to speak. I know this now, too. It's like, you know, I'm talking about the people I've talked to who, you know, had some things that disturbed me. And I'm like, okay, even if it's not social media even, it's just people reaching out directly, it is. I am getting a sample size that may not be representative of where opinion in the country actually is. And I think partly that's because a lot of people who participated in politics in the past have been like, fuck it, I'm out. This is terrible. I don't want to deal with this anymore. I'm going to do something else.

Austin Fisher (52:35)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (52:36)

And maybe that's not true, but if it is true, I would love those people to speak up and come back.

Austin Fisher (52:39)

I've been thinking a lot about to my experience at the no Kings protests a couple of weeks ago and just how that kind of released a lot of the anxiety I was feeling about this administration and how that anxiety is just coming back into my bloodstream these last couple of weeks and just looking for that type of action again. Or just those kinds of conversations with folks.

Jon Favreau (52:54)

Very. Yeah, we didn't even. I. I'm definitely more protests. I definitely think, you know, when we talked to Erica Chenoweth about this on psa, I think that, you know, there's other tools, there's boycotts, there's strikes. Right. Like that that could be down the road. There's basically, the point is there are a number of things that we can organize around and we should organize around before anyone starts talking about violence.

Austin Fisher (53:16)

Absolutely. I got two more quick questions for you. One conversation I was having with Saul, our Pots of America producer, before we jumped into this was about the frenetic pace of the Internet. He was mentioning to me that just. It seems that so many stories that have happened online just become like our main point of focus for so long and then all of a sudden just disappear.

Jon Favreau (53:36)

Yeah.

Austin Fisher (53:37)

This is what happened with the Trump assassination attempt in Butler, where just seven days later we weren't talking about it anymore. I'm just curious if this moment feels different to you or if this feels like something that might also just kind of get lost in the soup of our broken attention Spanish.

Jon Favreau (53:52)

It's a great question. I think it's too early to know. I do see these moments as, at least in the second Trump term, that we forget about them, but they Leave a mark. And I think that whether we're talking about this at all in a couple weeks from now or a month from now or wherever, the crackdown that they're promising that will stay with us, I don't think that's something that they're just going to forget about, though maybe they will. Maybe they'll run up against a wall and realize that they can't. Can't do that much except, you know, yell and intimidate people. But who knows?

Austin Fisher (54:23)

Kind of hope that happens. Yeah, I hate asking this question. I have produced for you for a long time, and people kind of always make fun of the what gives you hope? Question. But I do think I'm feeling a lot of despair. I feel like a lot of people are feeling a lot of despair right now, and they've been taking that out in a lot of different ways. But, like, what words of encouragement do you have for people listening that we can leave them with right now about this moment and where we can go from here?

Jon Favreau (54:46)

Not much, no. Like, what should give you hope?

Austin Fisher (54:48)

Which is why we don't usually ask that question.

Jon Favreau (54:50)

I really do believe, though, like, what should give you hope is your own agency. Like, every single one of us has the capacity to put things out into the world that are positive and constructive and productive and could have the potential to move us closer to the day when we do not have to deal with this anymore. And the minute you think that you don't have that agency, that you don't have that capacity, that you're just feeling so helpless and you're in such despair and you're feeling not just cynical, but nihilistic, which is what I'm worried about now. I used to be worried about cynicism. Now I'm worried about nihilism with people. But once you let yourself get there, then there is no hope, Right? But as long as you can tell yourself, like, you know what? I'm gonna wake up today, and I'm gonna read the news, and then I'm gonna figure out, who can I persuade? How can I make people aware of what's going on? What can I do? And then. And you know, that is, like I said, no guarantee it works. I don't have optimism, but I do have hope, which is different. And hope is that we can still make change.

Austin Fisher (55:48)

Hope is a hammer.

Jon Favreau (55:49)

There we go.

Austin Fisher (55:50)

Thank you. Appreciate you.

Jon Favreau (55:51)

Thanks, Austin, as always. If you have comments, questions, or guest ideas, email us@offlinericket.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline and Pod Save America exclusive content and more. Or go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilech Frank. Austin Fisher is our Senior producer. Adrian Hill is our head of News and Politics. Jarek Centeno is our Sound Editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episodes as videos every week week our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east.

Will Sommer (57:20)

Welcome back to Listen to youo Heart.

Jon Favreau (57:21)

I'm Jerry and I'm Jerry's Heart. Today's topic Repatha Evolocumab Heart.

Will Sommer (57:27)

Why'd you pick this one?

Jon Favreau (57:28)

Well Jerry, for people who have had a heart attack like us, diet and exercise might not be enough to lower the risk of another one. Okay, to help know if we're at risk, we should be getting our ldlc, our bad cholesterol checked and talking to our doctor. I'm listening. And if it's still too high, Repatha can be added to a statin to lower our LDL C and our heart attack risk. Hmm.

Will Sommer (57:49)

Guess it's time to ask about Repatha.

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Jon Favreau (58:12)

Listen to your heart. Ask your doctor about Repatha. Learn more@repatha.com or call 1-844-repatha this episode.

Nordstrom Announcer (58:21)

Is brought to you by Nordstrom. When fall is finally here, you're ready for a wardrobe refresh and Nordstrom has you covered with the best of fall fashion. Stay ahead of the hottest trends and discover new favorites from top brands like Reformation, Veronica Beard, Favorite Daughter, Free People, Mango, madewell and more. And the best part, free shipping, free returns and easy in store pick pickup. So get ready to shop in stores on Nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app today.