Podcast Summary: Offline with Jon Favreau
Episode: Is America Still a Liberal Nation?
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Jon Favreau (Crooked Media)
Guest: Cass Sunstein (Professor of Constitutional Law, Harvard)
Episode Overview
This episode features Jon Favreau in conversation with Cass Sunstein, renowned constitutional law scholar and author, discussing whether America still upholds its liberal traditions in the face of rising illiberal and authoritarian currents—particularly within the political right. Drawing on Sunstein’s latest book, Liberalism in Defense of Freedom, they examine the philosophical foundations of liberalism, its present-day challenges, the role of institutions, the rise of post-liberal thought, and how the polarized information environment stokes these trends.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Is Liberalism—and Why Defend It?
[05:02-07:48]
- Cass Sunstein’s Motivation: The mounting threats to classically liberal values (freedom, rule of law, pluralism) in America and Europe inspired Sunstein to defend them explicitly.
- Liberalism’s Core Principles:
- Freedom
- Human rights
- Pluralism
- Security
- Rule of law
- Democracy
- Notable Quote [05:48 | Sunstein]:
“Some central commitments in our beloved country were under at least kind of quiet and mounting assault.”
[07:48-10:59]
- The current right increasingly deprioritizes the rule of law and freedom of speech in favor of “order” and decisiveness, characterizing some as illiberal or post-liberal.
- Heard from Both Sides: Sunstein notes even people on the right agreed with his defense of liberalism—not necessarily Obama fans, but defenders of freedom and the rule of law.
2. Order and Illiberalism
[11:20-14:17]
- Order as Anti-Liberal Value: Faith and nationalism can sometimes trump pluralism, freedom, and democracy.
- Orwell’s 1984 & The Appeal of Order: Even liberal thinkers recognize humans’ innate draw to order—sometimes at the expense of liberty.
[15:51-18:45]
- J.D. Vance and Post-Liberal National Conservatism: Vance is an articulate proponent of the post-liberal right, influenced by thinkers like Curtis Yarvin. Sunstein describes this as a novel threat in American politics—distinct from Trump’s disorderliness, with a stronger preference for order and nationalism.
Notable Quote [16:06 | Sunstein]:
“He [Vance] is in the grip of an anti-liberal orthodoxy...It’s in tension with American traditions going back to the founding.”
3. American Liberal Traditions and Tensions
[18:06-19:23]
- The American founding documents, traditions, and early conservatism (e.g., Reaganism) are grounded in liberal values, making an illiberal turn a sharp break with history.
- Drawing Boundaries: When does conservatism become illiberalism?
[19:35-21:18 | Sunstein]:“The rule of law is a pretty simple one…That should be completely bedrock.”
4. The Republican Party: Liberal or Illiberal?
[23:10-27:56]
-
The GOP contains both classically liberal and illiberal factions:
- Liberal Conservatives: Deregulation, free enterprise, tax reduction, rule of law.
- Acquiescent/Scared Conservatives: Silent in the face of illiberal pressures (e.g., threats to law firms).
- Actively Illiberal Wing: Prioritizing revenge and power over principles.
-
Memorable Example [23:45 | Sunstein]:
“There’s a part of the Republican Party that says these regulations...they want to excise Shakespeare and Keats from the Federal Register. That can be liberal.”
-
Recent attacks on universities and academic freedom cited as examples of growing illiberalism.
5. Is Trumpism the End Point of Conservatism?
[27:56-30:02]
- Favreau’s “Slippery Slope” Question: Is today’s illiberal right a natural endpoint of longstanding trends?
- Sunstein: It’s contingent—other Republican “success stories” could have gone a different way; Trump was both “lucky and really good,” activating latent authoritarian impulses.
6. Polarization, Social Media, and Liberalism’s Fragility
[30:02-38:09]
- Echo Chambers & the “Daily Me”: Rise of personalized info cocoons (thanks to algorithms and self-sorting) shatters shared reality.
- Group Polarization: Cited research shows that when ideologically similar people interact, their views grow more extreme.
- AI & the Future: Personalized chatbots and generative models may worsen echo chambers and sycophancy.
- Memorable Quote [32:21 | Sunstein]:
“Echo chambers and information cocoons…that breeds rage, it can breed violent thoughts, and it definitely breeds illiberalism.”
7. Supreme Court: Conservative, Liberal, or Illiberal?
[40:57-47:05]
- Immunity Ruling: Sunstein calls the Supreme Court’s recent decision on presidential immunity “grotesque”—not anchored in legal precedent or liberal principles.
- Most Justices Still Liberal: Despite ideological lean, even the Court’s most conservative members (Alito, Thomas) generally respect procedural norms—unlike truly illiberal regimes.
- Critical Nuance: While many decisions are “extremely conservative and right wing,” most do not yet cross toward illiberalism as seen in Russia or China.
- Notable Quote [41:14 | Sunstein]:
“It was a legally reckless decision...not a very high moment for the court along any dimension.”
8. Can Liberalism Defeat Illiberalism?
[48:26-54:43]
- Historical Precedent: Despite dark moments (referencing America’s WWII-era flirtation with fascism), U.S. culture and liberal leaders prevailed before.
- Moral Courage vs. Calculated Risk: Sunstein uses the example of “physicists under Hitler” as a cautionary tale about prioritizing safety over morality.
- Notable Quote [51:17 | Sunstein]:
“As soon as I saw that they were calculating the consequences and not thinking about morality, I knew Hitler would win.”
- Resisting Illiberal Temptation: Violating norms out of retaliation leads to a “spiral of terribleness”—liberal principles must persist unless literal survival is at stake.
9. Institutions, Trust, and the Case for Liberalism
[61:14-62:12]
- Separation of Powers: Still foundational, even if abstract—an independent judiciary is deeply humanizing and essential to liberty.
- Eroded Trust: With trust in institutions low, the challenge is to root liberal defenses in trusted or necessary institutions, reforming rather than abandoning them.
- Sunstein on Laughter and Tyranny:
- [64:50 | Sunstein]:
“If you look at tyrannical entities and persons, they don’t laugh a lot...Laughing itself is like you’re losing authority a bit and recognizing the quality of at least the person who’s making you laugh and you.”
- [64:50 | Sunstein]:
10. Cultural Sidebar—On Music and Humanity
[66:54-68:00]
- Brief detour into Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo fandom, used to humanize the tone and reinforce the conversation’s accessible, cultural style.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On the Dangers of Calculating Instead of Acting Morally ([51:17 | Sunstein]):
“As soon as I saw that they were calculating the consequences and not thinking about morality, I knew Hitler would win.”
- On Laughter as a Liberal Value ([64:50 | Sunstein]):
“If you look at tyrannical entities and persons, they don’t laugh a lot. Both because they lose control when they laugh. There aren’t a lot of pictures of Hitler and Stalin laughing...That’s a really liberal thing.”
- On Group Polarization ([34:04 | Sunstein]):
“People get more intense and extreme if they talk only to one another. That breeds rage, violent thoughts, and definitely breeds illiberalism.”
- On the Supreme Court’s Immunity Ruling ([41:14 | Sunstein]):
“That’s a grotesque decision, and I still find it staggering...It was a legally reckless decision.”
Important Timestamps
- [05:48] – Sunstein on the origins of his latest book and the contemporary threat to liberal values.
- [11:20] – On the illiberal impulse toward “order” and faith as a challenge to liberalism.
- [16:06] – Analysis of J.D. Vance and the national conservatism movement.
- [23:45] – Differentiating liberal and illiberal factions in the current GOP.
- [30:37] – Polarization, technology, and the breakdown of shared truth.
- [41:14] – The Supreme Court’s immunity decision as a departure from liberal norms.
- [51:17] – The physicists under Hitler: the moral peril of self-silencing in the face of tyranny.
- [61:14] – The value of institutions and separation of powers.
- [64:50] – Laughter as a sign of liberalism and humanity.
Summary Conclusion
In a wide-ranging, sobering, yet ultimately hopeful conversation, Jon Favreau and Cass Sunstein dismantle the threats posed by America’s illiberal turn, clarifying the philosophical stakes and the crucial difference between conservatism and authoritarianism. They warn against cynicism, encourage moral courage, resist the temptation to abandon liberal norms “because the other side does,” and contend that, even in fraught times, upholding pluralism, rule of law, and freedom is both possible and necessary.
Sunstein’s parting belief: So far, American liberalism has proven resilient—and can prevail again, if its defenders refuse to self-censor or retreat into mere calculation.
Recommended for anyone seeking to understand the philosophical roots—and real-world stakes—of today’s defining political divide.