James Talarico Wants to Fight with Love

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau Episode: James Talarico Wants to Fight with Love (November 15, 2025)

Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Jon Favreau and Texas State Representative (and U.S. Senate candidate) James Talarico. The main theme is how technology, polarized politics, and the rise of Christian nationalism have led to disconnection, nihilism, and despair—especially among young people—and what it means to “fight with love” as an antidote to these trends. The discussion weaves through faith, policy, personal narrative, and the importance of human connection in both politics and life.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Rise of Nihilism and Extremism among Young Conservatives

(00:59–11:36)

• Favreau introduces a disturbing trend he calls the “virus” of racism, nihilism, and extremism among Gen Z Republicans, referencing Rod Dreher’s reporting that up to 40% in D.C. elite circles are fans of white nationalist Nick Fuentes.
  • Quote: “It now seems clear that what’s coming after MAGA is much worse—a younger, more extreme, more nihilistic movement...” (Favreau, 08:22)
• Explains these young conservatives’ worldview is shaped by alienation, frustration about the future, and the incentives created by online platforms.
  • Quote: “They like his rage and willingness to violate taboos because they just want to tear everything down.” (Favreau paraphrasing Dreher, 07:17)
• Makes the case that what’s needed isn’t just better policies or candidates, but a politics rooted in empathy and human dignity.

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2. Introducing James Talarico: Progressive Christian Leadership

(10:30–14:11)

• Favreau sets up Talarico as a counter-example: an openly faithful, progressive Christian Democrat seeking to offer a moral, loving form of politics.
  • Discusses Talarico’s dual path as a minister-in-training and Senate candidate.
  • Quote: “Maybe the antidote really is fighting back with conviction and empathy...love. That’s certainly what James believes, and it’s certainly what I want to believe too.” (Favreau, 11:26)
• Talarico shares how he sees Democratic failure to provide hope and structure as contributing to the rise of toxic movements.
  • Quote: “We have not provided a healthy alternative... young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there’s not a healthy option before them. And that’s on us.” (Talarico, 02:36)

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3. Hard Truths about National Democratic Leadership and Policy

(11:37–17:01)

• Favreau and Talarico discuss Democrats’ perceived lack of fight, referencing recent government shutdown negotiations.
  • Quote: “National Democrats in this situation had a lot of leverage... and they gave up that leverage far too easily.” (Talarico, 12:22)
• Talarico advocates for shifting national party priorities to reflect grassroots, red-state experiences.
  • Quote: “As a Texas Democrat, I’m always working with a losing hand... My job tends to be losing in the best way possible.” (Talarico, 12:13)

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4. Affordability Crisis and Policy Solutions

(15:29–19:19)

• Tackles the “pain point” of affordability: housing, healthcare, childcare.
  • Quote: “Childcare is now more expensive than college [in Texas]... it’s pricing [families] out of the American dream.” (Talarico, 16:32)
• Highlights bipartisan Texas housing accomplishments: “single stair” housing, bipartisan zoning reform in Austin.
  • Memorable Moment: Talarico jokes that he even worked with Republicans on housing deregulation, “kind of this match made in heaven...” (18:00)

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5. Immigration: Framing, Justice, and Dual Responsibilities

(19:19–21:59)

• Talarico draws on family history in South Texas, seeking a “both/and” approach: welcoming immigrants with security, rejecting false binaries.
  • Quote: “Our southern border should be like our front porch—there should be a giant welcome mat out front and there should be a lock on the door. You can do both of those things at the same time.” (Talarico, 20:09)
• Criticizes both parties for failing immigrants, calls for embracing order and compassion together.

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6. Navigating National Attention and New Media Attacks

(23:48–30:54)

• Favreau asks about Talarico’s sudden national profile after praise from Obama, Rogan, The New York Times.
  • Quote: “Well, I already have a savior... it’s a terrible way to approach politics.” (Talarico, 24:19)
• Discusses handling “scandals” (e.g., following sex workers on Instagram).
  • Quote: “We welcome the support of all Texans, regardless of how they make their money. And I didn’t know what these women did on their own time, but I’m not going to judge them for it.” (Talarico, 29:22)
  • Argues legacy media misunderstands how online organizing works; follows back all kinds of influential accounts to share his message.

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7. What Does it Mean to "Fight with Love"?

(30:54–33:47)

• Talarico draws on his mother’s survival story to illustrate that love is sometimes “confrontational” and “aggressive” on behalf of the vulnerable.
  • Quote: “To me, that’s what love looks like. It is sometimes confrontational. It is sometimes aggressive. It does whatever it takes to stand up for the vulnerable.” (Talarico, 31:07)
• Connects Christian teaching (Jesus overturning tables) with the obligation to fight without dehumanizing the enemy.
  • “If we can get to that point where we’re not just fighting for our neighbors, we’re also fighting for our enemies, I think that’s when you see true transformation.” (33:29)

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8. Faith, Politics, and the Challenge from Secular Democrats

(36:52–46:12)

• Discusses skepticism among some on the left regarding politicians who speak about faith; Favreau shares personal backlash for expressing openness to belief in God.
  • Quote: “I have gotten my own pushback... they're telling me to shut up about my sky daddy.” (Talarico, 38:14)
• Talarico on why he attended seminary during his political career crisis—to rediscover sustaining purpose and love for neighbor.
  • “The only way to love God is to show it through your love for your neighbors... But you gotta have both.” (Talarico, 40:38)
• The distinction between moral motivation and theocracy.
  • “Christian nationalism is not Christian activism. One... dominates, the other loves.” (Talarico, 44:16)
  • Argues democracy aligns with Christian values because it mandates love for all neighbors.

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9. Responding to Christian Nationalism and Dangerous Trends

(48:17–54:17)

• Pinpoints the dangers of blurring church/state lines (J.D. Vance comments), the rise in young right-wing antisemitism, and what can be done.
  • “When government and political power gets too cozy with religion, that’s when we [the church] lose our prophetic voice, our ability to speak truth to power.” (Talarico, 49:36)
• Argues that faith leaders and communities must compete for “the soul of the church” and offer positive alternatives.
  • “Instead of pointing fingers at those figures on the other side, we gotta look in the mirror and figure out what are we not providing, what are we not doing?” (Talarico, 53:50)

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10. The Decline of Religious Community and the Search for Meaning

(54:17–60:25)

• Talarico sees the decline in organized religion as a crisis of community, meaning, and connection, particularly after COVID.
  • “The word religion literally means to religament—to reconnect us into one body... I think we need that now more than we’ve ever needed it before.” (Talarico, 55:07)
• Calls for rebuilding inclusive, revitalized faith (or secular) communities to wrestle with ultimate questions and address loneliness and anxiety.

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11. Internet, Social Media, and the Illusion of Connection

(60:25–66:15)

• Favreau and Talarico discuss how the internet’s “rage economy” foments division, and why offline organizing and face-to-face politics are essential.
  • Quote: “They are selling us conflict and calling it connection...feeding us empty calories, which has left us all starving for real community.” (Talarico, 61:08)
• Campaigns and politics should be opportunities to build genuine belonging.
  • “We’re building community. We’re meeting our neighbors—our flesh and blood neighbors. Because that’s what people are really hungry for right now.” (Talarico, 61:31)
• Argues only love-based organizing that persuades, not shames, can build the durable majorities necessary for real change.

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12. Building a Big Tent through Risk, Empathy, and Action

(66:15–69:51)

• Persuasion is not just about policy but about empowering those who feel hopeless or alienated from the system.
  • Quote: “The biggest group of swing voters were those choosing between the Democratic Party and the couch.” (Talarico, 67:10)
• Talarico intentionally appears on media not typically friendly to Democrats (Joe Rogan, Fox News), preferring to take risks in order to reach the disengaged.
  • Quote: “If we’re going to win this country back, we’re going to have to go into enemy territory... It’s going to require some courage from all of us.” (Talarico, 68:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have not provided a healthy alternative. So young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there’s not a healthy option before them. And that’s on us.” — James Talarico (02:36)
• “Our southern border should be like our front porch—there should be a giant welcome mat out front and there should be a lock on the door. You can do both...” — Talarico (20:09)
• “To me, that’s what love looks like. It is sometimes confrontational. It is sometimes aggressive. It does whatever it takes to stand up for the vulnerable.” — Talarico (31:07)
• “The only way to love God is to show it through your love for your neighbors... you've got to have both.” — Talarico (40:38)
• “Christian nationalism is not Christian activism. One... dominates, the other loves.” — Talarico (44:16)
• “They're selling us conflict and calling it connection...feeding us empty calories, which has left us all starving for real community.” — Talarico (61:08)
• “The biggest group of swing voters were those choosing between the Democratic Party and the couch.” — Talarico (67:10)
• “If we’re going to win this country back, we’re going to have to go into enemy territory... It’s going to require some courage from all of us.” — Talarico (68:46)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:59-11:36: The rise of nihilism and extremism among Gen Z Republicans; need for new moral-political foundation
• 11:37-17:01: Talarico on fighting for working people, affordability, and Democratic Party strategy
• 19:19-21:59: Immigration, the “front porch” metaphor, and balancing order and compassion
• 24:19-30:54: Handling media attacks and national attention; new media landscape
• 31:07-33:47: Fighting with love—personal stories, faith, and the obligation to fight without dehumanization
• 38:14-46:12: Leftward skepticism about faith in politics; distinction between moral inspiration and theocracy
• 49:36-54:17: The threat of Christian nationalism; reshaping faith communities from within
• 60:25-66:15: Algorithms, the rage economy, and the necessity of offline, relational politics
• 67:10-69:51: Engaging non-voters and going outside the comfort zone for persuasion

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Conclusion

Jon Favreau and James Talarico make a compelling case that fighting the nihilistic, algorithm-driven, and often toxic politics of our era requires more than messaging—it requires love, courage, and a commitment to building real, in-person connections rooted in empathy and action. Talarico’s faith informs his approach but is presented inclusively as a source of energy for wider social transformation. The conversation is a mix of policy, personal narrative, spiritual wrestling, and practical wisdom for all listeners—religious or not—who are looking for hope and a way forward.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

How is it?

[A]

I mean it's still 80 degrees here, so I'm kind of maybe 90. Maybe when we go to D.C. i'll wear some. And I do need a coat like a fall coat, so I'm looking to Quint for that. Give and get timely holiday staples that last this season with quints go to quints.com offline for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com offline free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com offline I'm Robert Smith and this is Jacob Goldstein and we used to.

[C]

Host a show called Planet Money. And now we're back making this new podcast called Business History about the best ideas and people and businesses in history.

[A]

And some of the worst people, horrible.

[C]

Ideas and destructive companies in the history of business. First Episode How Southwest Airlines used Cheap seats and Free Whiskey to fight its way into the Airline business. The most Texas story ever. Listen to Business History wherever you get your podcasts. I always joke that being a middle school teacher is great preparation for politics, but it's actually true because when I was trained to be a teacher, I was trained to always take responsibility for what happened in my classroom. So if my kids were acting up, it wasn't their fault because they're kids, they're middle schoolers. It's my fault for not having structure in the classroom. If they're not learning, that's my fault because God didn't make junk. Every kid can learn. Every kid has incredible potential. It was my job as the teacher to help them realize that and that training has been so helpful for politics because I always take responsibility, either me or my party. The reason I say all that is because this Christian nationalism, this toxic theology, this toxic political movement that's growing, I think that we have responsibility here. We have not provided a healthy alternative. And so young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there's not a healthy option before them. And that's on us.

[A]

I'm Jon Favreau and you just heard from this week's guest, James Talarico, a state representative in Texas who's now running.

[B]

For the U.S. senate.

[A]

But before we get to that, here's a story you might have missed this week. A few days ago, Donald Trump called a 30 year old white House staffer into the Oval Office and offered him a new job as a top lawyer at the agency responsible for managing all the federal government's buildings, purchases and technology. So who cares, right? Why is this a story? Well, the 30 year old in question is a former right wing podcaster named Paul Ingrazia who admitted to some Republican colleagues last year that he has a, quote, nazi streak. He also said that every holiday celebrating black Americans, quote, needs to be eviscerated, that you should, quote, never trust a Chinaman or an Indian. That, quote, we need competent white men in positions of leadership and that the Founding Fathers were wrong, that all men are created equal. We need to reject that part of our heritage. Ingrazi made the comments in a group chat that one of the Republican operatives on the chain leaked to Politico.

[B]

But it's not as if his views.

[A]

Were all that secret. In 2023, he tweeted that the purpose of education should be, quote, elevating the high IQ section of your demographics. So, you know, basically young men, straight white men. A few months later, he tweeted that, quote, exceptional white men are not only the builders of Western civilization, but are the ones most capable of appreciating the fruits of our heritage. All of this was ultimately enough to sink in Gracia's Senate confirmation after several Republicans took the rare step of opposing a Trump nominee. But it wasn't enough for Stephen Miller or J.D. vance or Trump himself, who granted Ingracia a personal audience in the Oval to reward him with the new role.

[B]

Goes without saying that the President of.

[A]

The United States doesn't typically do this kind of thing for most mid level personnel matters in Grazia isn't the only Republican official who's been letting his Reich flag fly. In a group chat, you might remember the state party leaders who texted about loving Hitler, lying Jews and sending their opponents to the gas chamber. Another leaked chat that led to multiple apologies, resignations and condemnations from other Republicans. Except of course for J.D. vance, who dismissed people's concerns as pearl.

[B]

Clutching and said that kids do stupid things.

[A]

But the kids in question, most of whom are actually professionals in their 30s, don't seem to think what they're saying and doing is all that stupid. And their openly racist, anti Semitic, anti Democratic, anti American worldview is a virus that seems to be spreading throughout this generation of Republican staffers and media figures who've come of age in the Trump era. One writer has made news over the last week by saying that he believes 30 to 40% of the gen Z Republicans who work in Washington are fans of Nick Fuentes, a white nationalist streamer with half a million subscribers who said that women, quote, want to be raped, blacks need to be imprisoned, and Jews are warmongers who must be absolutely annihilated when we take power. The writer who made the claim about 30 to 40% of Gen Z Republicans wasn't some Lib or never Trumper, but Rod Dreher, an orthodox Christian so conservative that he lives in Hungary as a big fan of authoritarian Viktor Orban. Dreher made his observation after a trip to D.C. where he spent the weekend talking to as many Gen Z Republican staffers as he could. A trip where he also stopped by the vice President's home and sat down with Orban and his friend JD Vance, who he said he warned about the threat Fuentes and his worldview posed to the country, the Republican Party, and Vance's own political future. Dreher didn't say how Vance responded, but he went on to write about how the young Christians and traditional Catholics in Republican politics are now neck deep in anti Semitism. He asked one Gen Z conservative why so many are fans of a white nationalist like Fuentes, and the person told him that even if they don't agree with everything Fuentes says or the way he says it, they like his rage and willingness to violate taboos because, quote, they just want to tear everything down. The reason for this, according to what Dreher heard from a lot of the young Republicans he spoke to, is that this generation of conservatives, especially young men, feel hopeless about their career prospects and their ability to buy a home, get out of debt, get married and have kids. They blame the elites, the left, and increasingly democracy itself, with one young man asking Dreher a question he took as genuine.

[B]

So what's wrong with Fascism.

[A]

I'm telling you all this because I don't want us to live in a world where we look back at the Trump era as the good old days. It now seems clear that what's coming after MAGA is much worse. A younger, more extreme, more nihilistic movement that believes itself to be at war with not only the left or the old version of the Republican Party, but the founding ideal of America is a multiracial, multi ethnic, multi religious democracy dedicated to the proposition that we're all created equal. I think that those of us who still believe in that better version of America aren't really sure how to fight for it right now, but we better figure it out. And I don't think it's just a matter of coming up with the right policies or the right messaging or or even the most charismatic candidates. I think it's much deeper than that. The anger and despair and nihilism that dreher heard in D.C. isn't limited to the Gen Z right. It may be expressed in different forms and to different degrees, usually without so much outright bigotry, but it exists among many people on the left and many people who've given up on politics altogether here in America and throughout the world. And it's especially potent among a younger generation who are having trouble seeing a future for themselves, who can't seem to escape the loneliness and emptiness they feel while staring at screens that keep tempting us with the illusion of connection and fulfillment. One answer to this problem, I think, is a political movement that's built on a moral foundation, one that's rooted in the inherent value of every human being, one that calls on its followers to love those who are different and hold different views. Not as a way to erase those differences, but to remind us of our common humanity by forging genuine human connection. As messy and difficult and frustrating as that can be. If this kind of politics sounds like it has spiritual and even religious overtones.

[B]

That was my intention.

[A]

I'm certainly not saying that the answer to right wing Christian nationalism is liberal Christianity or really any kind of organized religion or religious movement.

[B]

But it's not lost on me that.

[A]

At the core of every major religion, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, is some version of the command that we should love each other like we wish to be loved, treat each other like we wish to be treated, see each other as equals worthy of dignity and respect. And it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that so many millions of people over thousands of years in far flung corners of the earth, have somehow all found their way to this truth. There's another politically active young Christian, 36 years old, who doesn't work in Washington just yet, but is currently applying for a job there.

[B]

He's also studying to become a minister.

[A]

And surprise, surprise, he's a progressive Democrat. James Talarico is running to be the next U.S. senator from Texas. But he's already become a national political figure who's inspired Democrats across the country and won praise from the likes of Joe Rogan and Barack Obama. Now, the more cynical view is that it's shrewd for Democrats to run an aspiring pastor who speaks openly about his faith because that will somehow have crossover appeal to more religiously inclined independents and Republicans. Maybe, maybe not. But I think that view misses something even more important about what James is.

[B]

Trying to do at a time when.

[A]

Politics, along with the algorithmically driven platforms through which we process politics, keeps incentivizing more rage and cruelty and despair. Maybe the antidote really is fighting back with conviction and empathy and trite as it may sound to our cynical ears.

[B]

Love, that's certainly what James believes, and it's certainly what I want to believe, too.

[A]

Here's our conversation.

[B]

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. James Tallarico, welcome.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Good to be with you in person.

[C]

It's so nice to meet you.

[B]

You too. You too. I've heard so much about you. I've been following you for a long time now. Well, same start with some news of the day. You said the deal to end the government shutdown, it wasn't a compromise, it was surrender. I certainly wasn't a fan either. But I guess my question is, if you were in the Senate, how much.

[A]

Longer would you have held out knowing.

[B]

That Donald Trump clearly has a higher tolerance for inflicting cruelty on people than we do?

[C]

Well, I'm a proud Texas Democrat, but I already have a religion and I already have a sports team, so I have no problem sharing hard truths about our party. And as a Texas Democrat, I'm always working with a losing hand. You know, I'm in a Republican dominated legislature, and my job tends to be losing in the best way possible. But national Democrats in this situation had a lot of leverage to fight for the people of this country, and I felt that they gave up that leverage far too easily. And, you know, Donald Trump certainly has a higher tolerance for inflicting pain on people. I agree with. But he's also very sensitive to other people's opinions about him. We know that's true about Donald Trump, and we saw that he had hit a record low in his approval ratings because of his actions in this government shutdown, Literally taking food out of the mouths of hungry children to fund tax breaks for his billionaire donors. And so the fact that national Democrats let him off the hook and didn't get anything in return, to me, just feels like political and legislative malpractice.

[B]

Do you think maybe they should have held out for, like, another couple weeks, another month?

[C]

I think we should have held out till we got what we wanted, which was not only, you know, reinstating the snap cuts and making sure that hungry kids and. And working parents had enough to eat, but also making sure that health care premiums weren't going to skyrocket for millions of Texans and millions of Americans. That's our job as Democrats, is to fight for working people. And if we're not doing that, then we shouldn't wonder why voters don't trust us at the ballot box. So, you know, I very much look at these positions as jobs. We're being hired to be the people's voice and the people's champion in the halls of power. And if we're not doing that, then we should find work elsewhere.

[B]

So a growing number of House Democrats have called on Chuck Schumer to step down as leader. A number of your fellow Democratic Senate candidates have said they won't support Schumer as leader. If they win, would you?

[C]

I think this problem is a lot bigger than Chuck Schumer. I think it's a lot bigger than any one senator. And if we want to just try to put the blame all on one person, I think we're missing the bigger picture, which is that our party has forgotten how to fight at the national level. I do think that national Democrats could learn a thing or two from red state Democrats, because we have to figure out how to use every tool in our toolbox to fight for our people, to fight for our values. And we develop a thick skin and we develop certain muscles in the halls of power. I think you're going to see in 2026 red state Democrats, Texas Democrats, starting to step up into these leadership positions and hopefully steering our party in a direction where we can fight effectively and actually win for working people all over this country. And I honestly think that's the discussion we need to be having. There's a temptation to find one person and say, that's the problem. Let's get rid of that, that senator or that minority leader, and all of this will be solved. I don't think that's true, and I Do think we've got to have a conversation about how the party as a whole at the national level has to change if we're going to transform this country so it works for regular people.

[B]

Again, one thing that every Democrat, even some Republicans, even some people in the White House seem to agree on coming out of last week's election is that life in America isn't affordable and the government needs to do something about it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What ideas do you have on this issue that you'd want to fight for if you get to Washington?

[C]

Yeah, I do agree. That was the big lesson across all these different races, all these different kinds of candidates, too. It's that affordability is the, the primary pain point for Americans and for Texans. So I've served for four terms in the state legislature. I've actually passed a lot of bills as a Democrat in, in a Republican dominated legislature. And a lot of those bills have been focused on bringing down costs. Obviously, grocery store prices are a real pain point for people, but I don't think we're talking enough about the structural aspects of our economy that prevent working class, middle class people from getting ahead. So the cost of housing, the cost of health care, the cost of childcare in Texas, I don't know what it is in the rest of the country, but in Texas, childcare is now more expensive than college.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So for young, working families with young kids, this is pricing them out of the American dream. And so I've passed bills to bring down costs in all of those areas. I want to do that at the federal level. There's even more that we could do in Washington to start to restructure the economy so that working people, middle class people can finally build a life, build wealth for themselves and their families.

[B]

Housing seems like one of the biggest costs that has been a pain point for people now for almost a decade. Whether you're not able to buy a home, whether you can't afford your rent. Young people thinking they're never gonna be able to buy a home.

[C]

And they're not wrong. I mean, I saw a stat that 90% of baby boomers went on to earn more money than their parents. For millennials like me, it's 50%. It's even lower for Gen Z. And owning your first home is such a key part of that dream. And there's kind of a sequence, because if you can't buy a house, then it's hard to start a family, hard to have kids, hard to get rooted in a community, hard to build wealth. So these things build on each other. And if we're robbing young people from the ability to afford their first home and you're really locking them out of the American dream, and I don't think older generations understand the damage and the harm that that's doing to young people all over this country.

[B]

What have you guys been doing in Texas about that? Because I do know that it's easier to build homes in Texas than it is, at least here in California.

[C]

Yeah, well, a few things. I actually just passed a bill a few months ago in the Texas legislature to allow for single stair housing. This is kind of wonky, but this is a, a form of housing, many times condos. That's very popular in other countries. But for some reason we have this outdated building code in Texas and a lot of other states that doesn't allow for these smaller housing units with just one staircase, it's usually the blame is put on fire safety. But all these other countries have figured out how to keep people safe and also build these smaller units. And so we just repealed that part of the code. And Democrats were excited because it was going to allow for more young people to afford a home, either whether they're renting or whether they're buying a condo. And then Republicans loved it because we were repealing regulations. And so it was kind of this match made in heaven where we had bipartisan buy in on a housing bill in Texas. And then in the Austin area in Central Texas, we went through some dramatic zoning reform which makes it easier to build housing in, in the urban core. And Austin is one of the few metro areas in the whole country that's seen rents decline in, in recent months. And so some of these solutions are right there in front of us. It's just going to require building the political will to actually get them done.

[B]

So, being from Texas, spending a lot of time in South Texas, you've seen both the successes and failures of our immigration system up close. Of the many injustices committed by the Trump administration, what has been most horrifying and enraging to me are the mass detentions and deportations and outright violence targeted at people who merely look like they might be immigrants or are peacefully protesting or are just bystanders. I also think that the one reason Trump was put in a position to do this is because of our collective failure.

[C]

Agreed.

[B]

As a country and as a party over decades to actually fix our immigration system. We what did that failure look like to you in Texas during the Biden years? And if you become a senator who's in a position to do something about it what would you do?

[C]

So I'm an 8th generation Texan. My family's been in the state since it was Mexico. In fact, my family's from South Texas. My mom grew up in Laredo right there on the Texas Mexico border. I feel like Texans understand immigration better than other folks across the country, both its challenges and its benefits. What I've said is that our southern border should be like our front porch. There should be a giant welcome mat out front and there should be a lock on the door. You can do both of those things at the same time. Most people in this country, most people in Texas are pro immigrant and pro security, but they really feel like they've been failed by both parties because they've had one party, particularly in the Biden era, that was pro immigrant and seemed to not be very concerned about security and seemed to have a high tolerance for chaos. I remember talking to my, my colleagues who served border communities and they were talking about just the incredible toll that that policy on our southern border was taking on people in South Texas and all along the Texas Mexico border. And it was unsafe both for native born Americans, but also for migrants and for immigrants. People also see from the Republican Party, folks who seem to be pro security but very anti immigrant. Yeah, right. Donald Trump is literally sending masked men in unmarked vehicles to kidnap people off our streets, tearing parents from their children, waiting in school pickup lines, lurking in hospital waiting rooms. I mean, I think what we need is finally a political party, and I hope it's ours, that can both welcome immigrants who are coming here to contribute to live the American dream, to make us richer and stronger and also keep folks out who mean to do us harm and ensure that there is an orderly process. I really believe the Democratic Party should be the anti chaos party. We should be the ones trying to make government work for people. And immigration is a classic example where we have failed as a party. And if we hope to earn people's trust and their respect going forward, we've got to rethink how we approach this issue.

[A]

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[C]

Are you ready to get spicy?

[B]

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[C]

Maybe it's time to turn up the.

[B]

Heat or turn it down.

[C]

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[B]

So you've become something of a national figure because you know you've impressed a lot of people outside of Texas, a lot of Democrats, based on your ability to speak about faith and how it informs your politics. You went on Joe Rogan, something that not many Democrats have done. He tells you to run for president. Barack Obama says he's impressed with you. You got a New York Times headline asking if you're the savior the Democrats have been waiting for.

[A]

Meanwhile, you're just trying to win a.

[B]

Senate primary in Texas. Does all that national attention make it easier, harder? Like, how are you processing it all?

[C]

Well, I already have a savior. And, and I think this is a problem in our politics where we hope that one candidate or one politician is going to fix all of our problems. And it's, and it's a terrible way to approach politics. One, because it robs you of agency, right? If you can put all your hopes and dreams into one person, then you don't have to do much. When in reality, I am one small part of a solution. But it's going to take all of us, whether we are candidates, whether we're podcasters, whether we are ordinary citizens. It's going to take all of us, transforming this broken political system and making it work for all of us again. But I will say that I'm thankful we've got folks interested in Texas, because Texas, I think, will flip in this upcoming election. And once we do that, both with the help of everyone in Texas and our honorary Texans in other states, and it will fundamentally change the politics of this country forever. And so I think this is the most high stakes Senate race in the country. Not only does it hold the key for winning a Senate majority, but it does hold the key, I think, for saving this American experiment. And if we can figure out how to win in Texas, it'll mean that the Democratic Party has figured out how to win America. And I am so thankful and so proud to be part of that effort. And I'm really excited that people around the country want to help.

[B]

Yeah, I think a lot of people had hope for Texas, and then over the last couple cycles, it seemed like it was slipping away. Yeah, I, I think, look, people don't quite get the national election like a presidential election. The electorate's different than a, than a midterm election. Beto came, what, within like, two and a half? Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Two and a half points. Couple hundred thousand votes.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

How are you looking at the strategy? I know you're in a primary right now, but everyone in Texas right now, obviously, you know, it's like I said, it's become tougher in presidential elections the last couple cycles. But how are you looking at the state strategically on how to flip it this time around?

[C]

Yeah, I think people are sleeping on Texas. I really do. When you zoom out over the last 15 years, statewide elections have gotten more competitive. I remember when I was growing up in Texas, Republicans would win statewide elections by 25, 30 points. Now they consistently win by single digits. You mentioned Beto o' Rourke coming within two and a half points in the last Trump midterm. We're about to have the second Trump midterm. Feels like we've been in the Trump era forever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

My whole life.

[C]

But this is the only, this is, this is only the second Trump midterm we've ever had. People also forget that in the next election, in 2020, Joe Biden only lost Texas by five points. Feels like we've memory hold that stat.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If Republicans were five points away from winning California, they would break the bank.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They would go all in. Right. They have that killer instinct that the Democratic Party doesn't always have. But I think it's going to require a couple things to win in 2026 in Texas. It's going to require a candidate who can inspire and energize people. That's what I'm trying to do all over the state. But it's also going to require a grassroots army to meet voters where they're at, whether it's on their phones or at their doors or on the phone or. Or writing postcards. It's going to take thousands of Texans stepping up and doing their part to win the state and engaging with their neighbors who aren't with us yet, which is not always easy to do. But I am so excited that We've already had 8,000 Texans go to our website and sign up to volunteer. This is without us asking. These are just folks who are so fired up about winning Texas that they are taking the initiative to sign up to knock doors and make phone calls and write postcards and. And then some of them have already started their own volunteer meetups all over the state. In fact, something I'm really proud of is during this snap crisis where we have families in Texas going hungry, our volunteer teams have taken it upon themselves to go to food banks all over the state. And they're organizing not just to win an election, but to serve people, which is, I mean, we forget that's what politics is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about helping others and loving our neighbors. And I'm so thankful that we are building that team together. And I will just say, anybody who's listening, if they want to join, they can sign [e-mail] and join this volunteer army because it's going to take all of us to pull off this, this, this feat of winning Texas.

[B]

So I work for someone whose career in national politics began in a similar way, suddenly get like, launched out of a rocket there a national scene. And the strategy that opponents used against Obama once he was put on a pedestal was to knock him off the pedestal.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Saying he's not what you think he is.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You're already getting some of this. There was an Axio story this week about you following back some women who followed on Instagram and happened to be onlyfans, models and escorts, even though you wouldn't really know that from their accounts. My reaction was, so who cares? Like, what's wrong with that? Of course, the intended suggestion is that this is somehow inconsistent with your Christian faith from a campaign perspective. How have you thought about handling this? And just this kind of stuff that's certainly coming.

[C]

Well, I very much Believe in fighting back when you feel like your neighbors are under attack. And we welcome the support of all Texans, regardless of how they make their money. And I didn't know what these women did on their own time, but I'm not going to judge them for it. I'm also not gonna participate in an effort to smear them for clickbait. And that's exactly the kind of senator I'm gonna be if I'm elected. And I will just tell you, I feel like Texans are not interested in this kind of media junk. They want a senator who's gonna bring down costs, who's gonna clean up government, who's gonna take on this broken political system. And I think they're gonna see right through these media games.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I didn't realize your campaign was saying this, that it's like you go on Joe Rogan, suddenly a whole bunch of new people know who you are.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They then follow you on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're a nice person. You follow them back and say thanks.

[C]

Well, it's not even that, not being a nice person. It's. It's how new media works, right? Yeah, exactly.

[B]

You engage.

[C]

Well, we, again, as a state rep in Texas, we have built one of the largest Instagram followings of any national Democrat. And we've done that by collaborating with big accounts and, and working with them to get our message out. And so we follow back all kinds of people. I mean, actors and musicians and athletes. I even follow back like a really popular bulldog, which I don't know much about. But you know what, they share our content and they're helping to get the message out. So I think this is also an example of how legacy media is just kind of clueless on what new media looks like and what it takes to win in this current environment.

[B]

So you've talked about people wanting politics of love. You've also talked about a few times in this conversation, people wanting Democrats to fight.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

What does fighting with love.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Look like and sound like?

[C]

Yeah. I feel like people think that these are two different things. I was born to a single mom who was working at a hotel in Austin. She met my birth father, a 21 year old high school dropout who had a drinking problem. And that drinking problem sometimes led to violence. And one night he became abusive again. But that night, my mother's love rose to meet it. And she packed all our stuff into her little Ford Escort. She drove me to the hotel where she worked. She begged the manager to let us stay in one of the rooms until we found this little apartment in East Austin, and there wasn't room for a nursery, so I slept in a crib in her closet. And she was so proud of that closet, she decorated it with toys and pictures. No one going to tell her it wasn't a nursery. And to me, that's what love looks like. It is sometimes confrontational. It is sometimes aggressive. It does whatever it takes to stand up for the vulnerable. And so this idea that love is passive or love is weak or love is neutral doesn't align with what I've seen in my own life. It also doesn't align with what my faith teaches me. I started off this campaign with the Bible story of Jesus flipping over the tables in the temple. Because we oftentimes, whether you're Christian or not or whether you're religious or not, we all think of Jesus as this very gentle, nice guy, right? Which he certainly was. But when his neighbors were under attack, when there were powerful people picking on vulnerable people, he didn't stay in his room and pray. He walked into the seat of power and he flipped over the tables of injustice to me. I started off the campaign with that story because it exemplifies what love demands of us in these moments. And it doesn't demand passivity. It demands action. It demands fighting back. And you can do that without dehumanizing your opponents. That is the critical line you can't cross over. In my faith, we're called to love our enemies, one that acknowledges that you're going to have enemies, right? If you speak truth to power, if you stand up for vulnerable people, you're going to run into opposition, you're going to run into opponents. But we're also called to love those opponents, too, which is so hard to do. Again, as a Democrat in the Texas legislature, I struggle with this. I'm not saying it's easy, but if we can get to that point where we're not just fighting for our neighbors, we're also fighting for our enemies, I think that's when you see true transformation. It's what I try to do, and it's what I want this campaign to be about, too, is fighting back. But rooting that in a deep love for our neighbors, for our communities, and also for our enemies. Too.

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[D]

What is the secret to making great toast?

[A]

Oh, you're just gonna Go in with the hard hitting questions.

[D]

I'm Dan Pashman from the Sporkville. We like to say it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. We use food to learn about culture, history and science. There was the time we looked into allegations of discrimination at Bon Appetit or when I spent three years inventing a new pasta shape.

[C]

It's a complex noodle that you've put.

[D]

Together every episode of the Sporkful. You're gonna learn something, feel something and laugh. The Sporkful. Get it wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

So some Democrats who aren't religious have a suspicious or cynical view of politicians who speak about their faith. Either because they've seen from religious conservatives and Christian nationalists, you know, faith lead them to, in the political sphere do things that they disagree with or because they think politicians who speak about faith only do so as a way to appeal to religious voters or conservatives. A few months ago on the show I interviewed Ross Douthit about his book that argues everyone should be religious. And I was surprised by the reaction from some few listeners who weren't necessarily annoyed that I was speaking to a conservative. Like I thought that might be the problem.

[A]

They were annoyed because I expressed openness.

[B]

To a belief in God and Jesus and possibly an afterlife. And it was funny because I heard people talk about how Democrats look down on people and faith and stuff. And I'm like, well, I'm sitting here, I had this conversation and I was like, well, I'd like to believe there's an afterlife.

[A]

I don't know, I've had my doubts.

[C]

It's a mystery.

[B]

Someone's like, I don't know if I can trust your analysis with that kind of crazy talk. And so it kind of took me aback. But like, I think most non religious Democrats don't feel that way. But what's your experience been with how non religious folks have reacted to you talking about faith so publicly?

[C]

I have gotten my own pushback and you know, sometimes I get personally hurt by it because these are people in my party, these are my fellow Democrats and they're telling me to shut up about my sky daddy. Right. Which is one way to describe it.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's the reaction.

[C]

But, but then I again trying to find that place of love. I remember that organized religion have, has hurt a lot of people. There's a lot of religious trauma in this country and it runs deep.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I, I want to be very sensitive to that and I try when I talk about my faith, especially when I talk about faith in the public square, that I do so in the most inclusive way possible, where I'm not just including Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus, but also including atheists and agnostics, because I am called to love all of my neighbors, regardless of how they pray or if they pray at all. And that's what I'm called to do as a Christian. And so I try to be as sensitive and as inclusive as I can, because I understand how much harm our religious institutions have. Have inflicted on people in this country. And I think that's where some of the pushback is coming from. So I think we just gotta be very sensitive to that when we engage in this conversation.

[A]

I know you grew up in a.

[B]

Religious family, have always been a religious person.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

When you got to a point in politics where you had become so dejected and cynical that you contemplated quitting, you didn't just lean on your faith. You made the decision to go to seminary and become a minister. What were you hoping to get from that experience when you made the decision, and what questions were you looking to answer?

[C]

So my granddad was a Baptist preacher in South Texas, and he told me when I was real little that we follow a barefoot rabbi. That's how he called it. And that barefoot rabbi gave us two commandments. Love God and love neighbor. Because there is no love of God without love of neighbor is how he put it. And my church, when I was growing up, always really emphasized our love for our neighbors, the need to take our faith from the sanctuary to the streets, to act right in the same way that labor organizers put their faith into action, the way civil rights marchers put their faith into action, the way farm workers put their faith into action. That was always the emphasis, which. It's no wonder I went into public service, first as a public school teacher and then as a public official. It's all motivated by that commandment to love my neighbor as myself. I try to love my neighbor through public policy. Right. Making their life easier with lower childcare costs, lower prescription drug costs, lower housing costs. But that work of loving my neighbor is really difficult, especially in a place like the Texas legislature and anyone who's engaged in politics. I'm sure you could. You could also attest to this, that loving your neighbor can be very frustrating and very difficult and very disheartening. And that's what happened to me in my second term. It had been such a dark session. The most extreme abortion ban in the country. Permitless carry, where anyone could carry a firearm without any Kind of permit an effort to whitewash our history curriculum and one of the worst voter suppression bills in modern American history. All of that happened in that second session. So to be very honest, I started to lose faith in this American experiment. Was it even going to be possible for us to all live together when we have such profound disagreements? And so I made the decision to go to seminary because I remembered that first commandment to love God. Those two commandments were given to us Christians because they sustain each other. The only way to love your neighbor is if you're loving that holy mystery where all of us come from, however you define it, whatever you call it, but loving the kind of the source that underpins everything. And then the only way to love God is to show it through your love for your neighbors by feeding the hungry, by healing the sick, by welcoming the stranger, by. But you've got to have both. And so for me, going to seminary was a way to balance out my life. It was a way of sustaining the love for my neighbors. And loving God through my seminary journey has been a true blessing. And it's why I can continue this sometimes difficult work.

[B]

So my first formative political experience was attending a Jesuit college.

[C]

Yeah, I love Jesuits.

[B]

Yeah. And it's funny. Cause I started Holy Cross as a Catholic who wasn't very religious.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And I left feeling less Catholic, but more religious.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

If that makes sense.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it was, you know, the Jesuit emphasis on social justice, liberation theology. It, like, really shaped my. Not only my personal morality, but my politics. But I've always found the interplay between faith and politics tricky.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I always think of that line in Lincoln's second inaugural about the Civil War when he says, you know, both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes his aid against the other. And like, where do you draw the line between using your faith to explain your political motivations and using your faith to justify why you think your political agenda should be law? Which I think the Christian right has done for some time in this country. And we think, okay, well, that's great that that's your religion, but why should that be our laws?

[C]

Well, and you know, Pope Francis, I think, was a Jesuit and showed us what that looks like to put faith into action. And. And honestly, when he passed away, I was worried that we wouldn't have a pope who.

[B]

Me too.

[C]

Who did the same thing. I will just say, as a non Catholic, how inspired I've been by Pope Leo and how he's met this moment particularly on immigration in this country. And I think he is such an example of how someone can use their faith in an inclusive way to stand up for all of our neighbors, particularly our vulnerable neighbors. We all bring our moralities, our philosophies, our worldviews to our politics. And faith to me is no different. It's my why. It's why I do this work. And I feel like I owe it to my constituents and my future constituents, knock on wood, to explain my why. So they know not just my 12 point policy plan, but they know the worldview that underpins that, the values that underpin that. And that was true for Christians, you know, throughout American history. Dorothy Day, Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Jimmy Carter, Mr. Rogers, right. They all use their faith to propel the work they did out in the public square for all Americans, not just Christians. So I've always said that Christian nationalism is not Christian activism. These are two different things. One, Christian nationalism is dominating our neighbors. It is elevating our religious tradition over all the others. It is fundamentally an act of domination, not love. And so I think if our religious activism or our Christian activism is rooted in the teachings of Jesus, I think it leads us away from theocracy and toward democracy, because democracy is, I think, fundamentally a very Christian form of government because it requires that we love all of our neighbors, not just our Christian neighbors, not just our religious neighbors, but all of our neighbors. And, and that's why I fight so hard for democracy. And I believe if this American experiment's going to survive, we desperately need a Christian commitment to democracy. And that I feel like we don't always have. And it's one that I'm trying to cultivate in the church as well. In addition to being on the campaign trail, in addition to being in my public office, I spend a lot of time in Christian churches of all denominations across the state talking about these issues. Because I think this sickness of Christian nationalism is only going to be healed within the church. That's where it comes from, and that's where it's going to be. That's where it's going to be stopped. And so this has got to be a conversation that we're not just having in state capitals or our national capital, but also in our Sunday school classes and in our church basements, because that's ultimately how we're going to defeat Christian nationalism once and for all.

[A]

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[B]

You know, I could probably use some therapy this time of year. Who? Turkeys?

[A]

Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

[B]

There's like I have this sense of dread.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they got, they got to get it, they got to get it in now.

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You gotta start talking to people. Like, hurry up.

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Yeah, that's a, it's a short Runway.

[A]

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[D]

What is the secret to making great toast?

[A]

Oh, you're just going to go in with the hard hitting questions.

[D]

I'm Dan Pashman from the Spork Pole. We like to say it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. We use food to learn about culture, history and science. There was the time we looked into allegations of discrimination at Bon Appetit or when I spent three years inventing a new pasta shape.

[C]

It's a complex noodle that you've put.

[D]

Together every episode of the Sporkful. You're going to learn something, feel something and laugh. The Sporkful. Get it wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

I don't know if you caught JD Vance's comments on religion at a Turning Points USA event the other week. I didn't at Ole Miss. So someone asked him about the establishment clause of the Constitution, and he said that JD Vance said that those who argue the Constitution requires a separation of church and state are lying, that it just prevents the establishment of a national religion. And that if you go back to the founding, several states had officially recognized churches, and it's the Supreme Court's interpretation of the establishment clause that, quote, kicked religion out of public spaces, which in his view is a huge mistake that we've been paying for ever since.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you make of that?

[C]

I mean, I think it's bad history. I also think it's bad theology because again, I mentioned that my granddad was Baptist. So I come from a tradition that cherished the separation of church and state. The first time that Jefferson ever used that phrase wall of separation between church and state, it was in a letter to the Danbury Baptists because like any good politician, he was trying to speak their language. And Baptists and Protestant Christians in this country in particular, really valued religious freedom and religious liberty and preventing the state, preventing the government from picking and choosing between faith traditions and. And back then it was really between different kinds of Christians.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

Between Catholics and Protestants, Lutherans and Presbyterians and. And Methodists. And so we have to acknowledge that the separation of church and state doesn't just benefit the state, it also benefits the church because once government and political power gets too cozy with religion, that's when we as a church lose our prophetic voice, our ability to speak truth to power, to call out government officials, which is a proud tradition we have in Christianity. And so when I talk to my fellow Christians, I always try to emphasize how this benefits us to have this separation, to have this establishment clause and this free exercise clause in the first Amendment. And I think it's incredibly irresponsible for someone like J.D. vance to try to blur the lines in this sacred boundary.

[B]

So there's this big intra maga fight right now over whether the movement should embrace or at least tolerate white nationalist Nick Fuentes and his followers. Rod Dreher, who is a pal of J.D. vance's who identifies as orthodox Christian, he just wrote this, this long substack that he spent a lot of time in D.C. talking to young people working in Republican politics. And he estimates between 30 and 40% are fans of Nick Fuentes.

[A]

And he writes, quote, even young Christians.

[B]

Especially traditional Catholics, I learned, are neck deep in anti Semitism. They even use it as a Litmus test of who can and can't join their informal social groups. And he asked one of them what these Fuentes fans want, and they said they don't have any demands. They just want to tear everything down.

[A]

Scary stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What do we even begin to do about that in this country? Because it's starting to concentrate among a younger generation. I do recognize in his writing this nihilism. It started off as cynicism, it's become nihilism, and they're throwing the cloak of Christianity or Catholicism over it. But it does feel, it feels like something even more insidious and dangerous than whatever we've been going through with Donald Trump in the last decade, which is bad enough.

[C]

So, one, I think we have to recognize that this is not just a political problem. It is a spiritual problem. And again, for Christians to advocate for antisemitism, to me, does such violence to our tradition because Jesus was Jewish throughout the day he was born, all the way to the day he died. He was a Jewish rabbi who never talked about starting a new religion. And so our, our tradition grows out of Judaism, and we should have deep reverence and respect for that mother tradition of ours. You know, I, I being a public school teacher, I always joke that being a middle school teacher is great preparation for politics, but it's actually true. Because when I was trained to be a teacher, I was trained to always take responsibility for what happened in my classroom. So if my kids were acting up, it wasn't their fault, because they're kids, they're middle schoolers. It's my fault for not having structure in the classroom. If they're not learning, that's my fault. Because God didn't make junk. Every kid can learn. Every kid has incredible potential. It was my job as the teacher to help them realize that. And that training has been so helpful for politics because I always take responsibility, either me or my party. The reason I say all that is because this Christian nationalism, this toxic theology, this toxic political movement that's growing. I think that we have responsibility here. I'm a amateur gardener, and I know that if you have an unhealthy garden, weeds will grow. And so it is, I think, on us as not just Democrats, but those who love democracy, those who love Christianity or love their faith tradition, that we have not put up more of a fight in this public debate, that we have not provided a healthy alternative. And so young people naturally are going to gravitate to unhealthy options if there's not a healthy option before them. And that's on us. It's why I try to talk about this, even if it's a little tricky, even if it's make some folks a little uncomfortable, like unless I'm putting forward something that's healthier and more positive and I think more true to our tradition then the Nick Fuentes of the world, the J.D. vance's of the world, they're gonna be the only voices out there. And that's what young people are gonna gravitate to. So instead of, you know, pointing fingers at those figures on the other side, I think we gotta look in the mirror and figure out what are we not providing, what are we not doing and how is that leading young people down these really dark paths.

[B]

And you know, one direction is young people go down these dark paths. The other direction is, and you see this in all the, in the data that just people are becoming less religious in this country and have for this, you know, the decline of religiosity has happened now over several decades. We spoke earlier that I think one reason is sort of a general distrust of institutions, specifically religious institutions. You know, I think about the Catholic Church covering up sexual abuse. But even if people aren't joining sort of organized religions, you know, you've talked about sort of this, this growing hunger to live lives with meaning and purpose. And yet why do you think it doesn't lead people to be more, you know, personally faithful or sort of seeking sort of some kind of religious answer?

[C]

Well, I do think we've seen an uptick since the pandemic of young people trying to rejoin religious communities. I think the key is how do young people remake religious institutions in their own image? How do we, how do we confront corruption within organized religion? How do we confront abuse in organized religion and remake these institutions so that they serve people again? You know, the word religion literally means to re ligament to reconnect us into one body. That oneness is kind of the foundational truth underneath all religious traditions that we're all connected, that I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper. And I think we need that now more than we've ever needed it before. In some ways, we are conducting a real time experiment on an entire generation of young people. Because throughout human history, we have always needed communities to wrestle with the big questions of life. What does it mean to be a human? What is evil? What is love? What is love demand of us? Those are questions you're not going to struggle with at work, right? Those aren't questions you're going to struggle with in a political party or in an election cycle. And so we're missing communities where you can have these conversations about the most fundamental questions in our lives. And so it's no wonder that we have seen rates of anxiety and depression skyrocketing, not just among young people, but all people, because we're all living now in an incoherent universe without a story that helps us make sense of our. Of our existence. And so I, at the same time, can have deep concern about organized religion and the harm it does, but also know that we. There's a baby in that bathwater, and if we throw out the whole thing, we're throwing out something so fundamental to the human experience. And so the reason I went to seminary was to try to figure out how we could rebuild faith communities that are healthy and nurturing and affirming and help people be more loving. Because if, you know, Jesus says that you can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears. And so you don't even have to wonder if it's good theology. Just look at what it produces. And if it produces more hate and more division and less love, then it's not good. It's a pretty simple test. And so I have seen young people at my seminary and seminaries all over the country, at churches all over the country, stepping up to ask these questions and try to answer these questions. And that gives me a lot of hope for where religion and Christianity in particular are heading in this country.

[B]

This is like, my political brain speaking. But I hadn't been to Mass in a long time, and I went this last summer, and I remember sitting there in Mass, and I was like, no wonder people don't come here. New people don't come here. It's so rote and, like, boring. And I'm like, you kind of need, like, some political minds here to be like. Because it's like an organizing thing, like you. The idea is to bring people into the church. I remember, you know, I grew up in a suburb of Boston and like, that. That church versus sort of the church that I was a part of when I went to Holy Cross, which was Jesuit and social justice and all that. But the church I went to as a kid, you'd go in there and they'd make you feel guilty for not going to church more. But that was sort of the message of the Mass, you know, like, oh, I don't. I see you all on Christmas, but.

[C]

I don't see you.

[A]

The rest.

[B]

You. I do wonder if there just needs to, like. I mean, you talked about this Having this fight from within the sort of these religious institutions that you. You know, it's just like a political movement or an organization. You want people, you want it to be joyful and meaningful, to join and to wrestle with those questions that you were talking about.

[C]

And, you know, I always think about the Sermon on the Mount, which is probably Jesus most famous sermon.

[A]

Radical.

[C]

Yeah. And I encourage everyone, whether you're religious or not, to go back and read it, because I think what's interesting is that it doesn't take place in a church, literally, or a synagogue in Jesus time. He literally calls people to a mountainside. And in the sermon, he points to the birds of the air and the lilies of the field as examples of how we should live. Right. And the word church in Greek means to call out. It means to be called out of your culture, called out of your economy, call that of your political system, called out of your own biases and prejudices to see the world anew. And so if religion's not doing that, if it's not shocking us, if it's not shaking us awake, then it's not doing its job. When you go to church, you should leave with many more questions than when you went in there. You should be questioning everything about your own life, about our society and the way this country is structured. That's what religion does for me. I'm blessed to belong to a church in Round Rock, Texas, that does that for me. But I. I want every person in this country, particularly every young person, to have that kind of community. And if one doesn't exist in your neighborhood, which it may, and people should investigate, because there are great churches doing great work calling people out. But if it doesn't exist, then you should make one. It doesn't have. Doesn't have to be in a building. It could be on a. On the side of a mountain with the birds of the air and the lilies of the field. And I hope that the crisis in this country right now, I hope the silver lining is that more people are going to rebuild these faith communities to find meaning, find purpose, and reconnect us with our neighbors.

[B]

On the topic of connection, a central theme of this show is how the Internet and especially social media offer the illusion of connection.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

But leave us feeling lonelier, more divided, disconnected. I know you've talked about this a lot in your campaign. It's clear from the data that people across the political spectrum have this feeling. It also seems like a strong tide to swim against and a really tough problem to solve. How do you think about that?

[C]

Well, I think it starts with recognizing the problem that we are all being pitted against each other. I mean, these for profit platforms, these predatory algorithms, they are dividing us on an hourly, daily basis. They divide us by party, by race, by gender, by religion, and they elevate the most extreme voices on all sides to provoke our outrage, to get more clicks, to make more money. I've called it the rage economy. And the billionaires who own these platforms, they know that hate sells and anger sells and fear sells. They are actively appealing to our worst demons instead of our better angels. And you're right, they are selling us conflict and calling it connection. And it's almost like feeding us empty calories, which has left us all starving for real community. And it's why on this campaign, we are going everywhere, every corner of the state, and we're having in person events where we're bringing people together, we're building community. We're. We're meeting our neighbors in our flesh and blood neighbors. Because I think that's what people are really hungry for right now. And it's the way that I think we can start to subvert and push back against these platforms that. That make money by tearing us apart and by. And by keeping us at each other's throats. So until we recognize what's happening to us, I don't think we could even start with figuring out how to fight back.

[B]

There's this wonderful New York Times story last week about Zoran Mandani's campaign, and much has been written about that campaign. But this piece focused on how for a lot of the young people who participated in that campaign, it was an antidote to the loneliness and disconnection. And I think a lot of this, I mean, it was happening before the pandemic, but the pandemic certainly accelerated this. And it was just so. It made me think, like, oh, this is. This is like, fundamentally what politics should be at its best is people getting together, figuring this out together, having disagreements in person, figuring out what it is to knock on a door, talk to someone who either doesn't want to talk to you, or doesn't agree with you, and trying to, like, bring them along. And I do wonder if you see, like, your campaign as an opportunity to just get people out of their houses and just, you know, make connections with each other.

[C]

Yes. You know, I really struggled with the decision to run for this seat primarily because I really valued my time in seminary. I still want to become ordained as a minister, and I had to kind of put all that on hold to run statewide in Texas. But the reason I decided to do this is because I really feel like this can be a form of ministry. And when I'm, you know, I do these rallies and then I, and I wait till the very end to talk to every single person, take photos, hugs, you know, sometimes prayers, and it is a way for me to connect with them and for them to connect with each other. And you know, the, the surprising thing about in person organizing, in person connection is that it kind of shakes your certainty. I feel like serving in the Texas legislature with a bunch of far right Republicans has actually been a blessing for me because it forces me outside of my bubble. And when you actually build a relationship with someone on the other side, again, not just shaking someone's hand, but I mean actually building a friendship with someone on the other side, it starts to make you. Sometimes it makes you firmer in your convictions, but then on other things it makes you question your own beliefs. And hopefully I think it has done that for them as well by knowing me. Because that's what relationship can do. It's a two way thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And when we don't have that, when we're all siloed, when we're all disembodied, you know, on these social media platforms, it becomes so easy to see the other side as two dimensional villains. And then they see that about us too.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And we, and that's why we have such polarized politics. I do think we are social animals and we have got to be able to interact with each other in real life and we have to build real relationships. And I'll just say to my fellow Democrats, that is the way you change hearts and minds. No one, no one is persuaded when they're shamed, when they're ridiculed. Right. When they're called names. I know when that happens to me, I dig in further.

[B]

Right. Right, everyone. It's human nature.

[C]

That's right. The only times that I've been persuaded to change my mind is when someone calls me out in love, with trust and with security and with a relationship. So if we want to build a big enough coalition to transform this country, to transform this economy, we cannot be satisfied with a 51% majority. We just can't. We're always going to be in danger of losing to someone like Donald Trump with a 51% majority. I'm interested in how do we build a 60, 65%, 70% majority like we had in the New Deal era, like we had in the Great Society era. That is possible. I really do believe that. But it's going to take Democrats relearning the art of persuasion. And that has to start with relationships. It has to start with building bonds and building trust with people who aren't with us yet. And that's uncomfortable and it's difficult and it's risky. But if you're in a position to do that, it is the only way that we're gonna save this American experiment, in my opinion.

[B]

And there's two types of persuasion. One is persuading people who pay attention to politics but don't necessarily agree with you. And then there is persuading people who have just given up on politics who don't often participate at all. And I know that's a huge problem in Texas. I mean, it's a huge problem nationwide now, but especially in Texas. And then you get these. We're in an odd position now as the Democratic Party where you get these off year special elections, even to some extent the midterms, where now we have a coalition of highly engaged voters. It is a whiter coalition, it is a more upscale coalition than it's been more college educated. And I assume to win in Texas, you're going to need a lot of working class folks who are black, brown. Obviously. Texas, like all those counties along the Rio Grande Valley, the border that, you know, well, they sort of, you know, shifted to Donald Trump and then a lot of people just stayed home. How are you thinking about sort of reaching the people who have just given up on politics altogether?

[C]

Well, you know, I flipped a Trump district. When I first got elected to the state legislature, it was a district that no one thought was winnable. I was told it was impossible. I was told I was too young. I was told I didn't have the money or the political connections to win. But my neighbors and I, we ran an aggressive, authentic, unorthodox campaign that brought people together. And on election night, we flipped that district with 51% of the vote. I couldn't win with just Democrats. I had to win with independents and Republicans too. And so, yes, there are swing voters who are choosing between the Democratic and the Republican Party. And we have to win those voters over. But then I learned in that process that the biggest group of swing voters were those choosing between the Democratic Party and the couch. And. And so persuading those voters not on policy, because they tend to agree with us on policy, but persuading them of their own power, persuading them that they have the ability to change this corrupt, broken political system that is Also a form of persuasion. It also requires a relationship. Politics is relationships all the way down.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, you know, when I went to those doors, I tried to be very honest with people that, yes, the system is corrupt, yes, the system is rigged against us. But the only way it's going to change is if you remake the system in your own image. And that starts with voting. But voting is the bare minimum. It also requires your activism, your organizing, your attention in every election and in between elections, too. And so we're taking that same approach here. And we are going everywhere. We're talking to everyone, both in person, but also virtually. It's why I went on the Joe Rogan Show. It's why I've been on Fox News twice now. It's why I've been on the Christian Broadcasting Network twice now. It's a little bit of a form of risk taking. You know, I'm here on Pod Save America, which tends to be a little more friendly, not as much riskier. But I don't know if I'm going to persuade as many people here. Um, I can preach to the choir, and, you know, that's important for getting the choir to sing. But. But if we're going to win this election in Texas, if we're going to win this country back, we're going to have to go into enemy territory. We're going to have to go into the lion's den, and it's going to require some courage from all of us, and it's going to require some risk taking. I kind of love that. I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie, a daredevil when it comes to politics. And I. I love being in the lion's den. That's why I love serving in the legislature. But I think it's going to require that from all of us. America needs us right now, and it's going to require courage to have those conversations with that family member at Thanksgiving who you feel like you may have written off. It's going to require reaching out to that neighbor who may be disengaged from politics and think it doesn't matter. Those are the conversations. Those are the relationships that are going to get this country back on track.

[B]

James, thanks for. Thanks for sitting down with me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And good luck out there. It's exciting to hear what you're doing.

[C]

I appreciate you. Thanks.

[A]

Quick housekeeping note. Thanks to everyone who came to qriketcon and made it possible. Attendees, speakers, sponsors. We could not have done it without you if you couldn't make it.

[B]

And want to hear the conversations, panels.

[A]

And all the other fun stuff we got into, head to cricketcon.com we'll be posting a whole lot of live from.

[B]

CrookedCon content right there.

[A]

You can also hear these panels on the Pod Save America podcast feed or on the YouTube channel. Sign [e-mail] for all the details on our next CrookedCon coming to you in 2026. As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email [e-mail] and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline and Pod Save America exclusive content and more, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilick. Frank Austin Fisher is our Senior producer. Adrian Hill is our head of News and Politics. Jerrick Centeno is our Sound Editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episodes as videos every week. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.

[B]

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