← Offline with Jon Favreau
Offline with Jon Favreau
Max Returns! AI Bubbles, Info Silos, and 67
01:06:01
What happens when the AI bubble bursts, how did Meta get away with it yet again, and…is Elon “Bubba”? Max Fisher pays Offline a visit to take stock of the year in memes, conspiracy theories, and information siloes. He and Jon meet the ghosts of twitter fights past and future, compare notes on staying off their phones, and chat about what they’re watching right now…besides Zohran and Trump flirting.
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A
Offline is brought to you by the League of Conservation Voters. The climate crisis isn't a distant threat. It's here. It impacts everything from the air we breathe to where we call home. But even though things might feel bleak, there's real progress happening thanks to organizations like the League of Conservation Voters. LCV for short. Mobilizing people to stand up for the environment. For over 50 years, LCV has translated our shared hope for a greener future into pro environmental policies that create clean energy jobs, make air cleaner to breathe and water safe to drink, keep public lands in the public's hands, and ensure every community is a healthy place to live. Now more than ever, LCV is counting on people like you to sustain that work. Every contribution funds LCV's advocacy, from pushing for stronger climate policies to standing up to big polluters and the Trump administration. Progress is happening, but it depends on us. Donate today@LCV.org offline and help fuel LCV's critical work. Now through December 31st, every donation toward LCV's pursuit of a brighter future gets double matched together. Let's make sure the planet never takes a backseat. Donate@LCV.org offline today. Want to know how Russian pranksters tricked.
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A top government official?
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Or how the only copy of a.
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B
Wu Tang Clan album got auctioned for millions of dollars by the Department of Justice?
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A
The answers are out there.
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B
The trick is getting the government to share them.
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I'm investigative journalist Jason Leopold. I spend most of my days getting documents from the government.
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I'm attorney Matt Topic, and I fight them in court to open their files when they don't want to. From Bloomberg and no smiley.
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A
This is Disclosure, a podcast about prying loose government to listen early and ad free on Apple podcasts. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com podcastoffer. Welcome to Offline. I'm Jon Favreau, and with me today is a special treat.
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B
Hey, buddy.
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A
Special post Thanksgiving treat is Max Fisherman.
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B
Listen, it's Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, you want to be cozy? You want to be back with your pals? We got a sweater on. We got some turkey out.
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A
How you doing up there, Max up there? I'm guessing I'm in Los Angeles. So anything new England ish. Is.
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B
Yeah, I don't. Well, as of this recording, our new mayor, Zoran Mondomini, has just had a meeting with Trump where he was apparently appointed the new vice president. So I guess things are going well.
- [02:20]
A
So we had a meeting right. Right before this. So I've been seeing everyone tweet about it and you know How I am when there's people tweeting and slacking excitedly and I am just supposed to be in a fucking meeting and I can't watch anything and I. I don't know what's going on. It's like the worst FOMO. I'm about to do a YouTube rapid response reaction thing after this with John and Tommy, so I'm just going in cold.
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B
You haven't seen it yet.
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A
I know, I heard it went great and I saw some of the. I saw the quotes, but that's. Yeah.
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B
Oh, my God. We should. Honestly, we should. If we have a minute at the end, we should watch one of the clips because it would be really fun to see you react live on camera.
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A
I also think it's very funny that people are going to be listening to this the Saturday after Thanksgiving and so by the time you're listening to this, they could be bitter foes again.
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B
No, no, I don't think so. I think this one is going to stick. I think by Monday. Yeah, we're going to be nationalizing Kroger.
- [03:14]
A
Well, we're going to take some of your questions. We thought that we'd bring Max in, since he's the nicer one, to answer a bunch of listener questions and, you know, and get some of Max's genius, too. So.
- [03:29]
B
No, I appreciate that you've been occasionally, mostly pleasing, but occasionally upsetting the listeners in my absence. You've been keeping the Max spirit alive.
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A
I just want to keep everyone on their toes, you know?
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B
That's right. Yeah.
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A
All right, the first question is from Blema. What do you guys make of Meta winning its antitrust case against the Federal Trade Commission? Do they, as the judge said, no longer have a monopoly on social media? I just have to say, when I saw this story, I was like, I thought of you, Max. And I was like, Max has got to talk about this. On the. On our episode, I asked the judge.
- [04:05]
B
To hold back on the ruling until we were going to do this recording. And he was. Was very helpful with. So look, you know that I am absolutely fangirl number one for Biden era FTC chair Lina Kham. This was kind of her. One of her big projects. Not just this case specifically, but a lot of the big antitrust cases against big tech companies. And this was a very big swing that she took, or that, like, is kind of her strategy for antitrust more broadly, which is not to challenge the Meta merger with Instagram and WhatsApp, which they were calling to be broken up on the grounds of breaking Merger rules, but by the much higher bar and much harder legal standard of declaring it a monopoly. And that was a thing that she wanted to do and a lot of people at the FTC wanted to do because they wanted to kind of build up this big precedent for anti monopoly ruling so that they could then go after other companies. They saw it as this great tool which makes a lot of sense for kind of stopping the power of big business. But as you alluded to, it's not really clear that Facebook or the Meta rather has a monopoly on, as the FTC claimed, all personal social networking. As we are aware, there are other companies that do social media out there in the world. And it was pretty easy for Meta, which broke a zillion laws in the way that it acquired WhatsApp and Instagram, to nonetheless say, well, we're not a monopoly because TikTok exists. And unfortunately that was persuasive. And the FTC actually got a big warning that that was going to be persuas almost a year ago in a ruling from a summary judgment that said like, you guys should be careful because you're on really thin ice with this legal strategy. And as it turns out, unfortunately they kind of shot their shot here and missed on the basis of that, which.
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A
Is too bad, it's a real bummer. But also, do you think it says anything about the broader strategy of trying to do this through the courts and not legislation or government regulation that would be more permanent?
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B
I think that's a good point. I think the specific thing of breaking up Meta and these companies, I think it made sense to do that through regulations, through the courts or something like the ftc. But this larger goal that led the FTC to pursue this much tougher anti monopoly strategy of breaking up the power of big tech. I think you're absolutely right that that is something that makes more sense to do legislatively.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah, I'm thinking about that just going forward on, on AI companies because like, are we going to just wait until they're all super big and then say, you know, we got to break them up when it feels like, like it always felt to me even when like Elizabeth Warren was talking about it in the 2020 campaign, it always felt to me that like the size of the social media companies while too big and like you said clearly Meta, you know, did quite a bit to acquire Instagram and the rest that are, it's unsavory if not illegal. The real problem with them and the real harm they are causing does not necessarily have to do with their Size, totally Right.
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B
And the real problem with them, as you're saying, is their influence over our minds and our economy and our political system, which is not per se illegal. So it was kind of like this weird backing into it to find something illegal that they did in order to reduce their power. Whereas in fact, what we want to do is we want to change the amount of power these companies are allowed to have, which is a legislative problem. Yes, yes, but Congress will get right on that, I'm sure.
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A
Yeah, no, it's, We're, I'm sure we're going to see some action on that very soon. Speaking of AI, we got a few questions about that. Ryan Old asks, is AI a bubble? What's your take on whether it's a bubble or not?
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B
You know what I'm gonna say it is the most telegraphed bubble burst in human history.
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A
Really?
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B
I did not know that like in 2007. It's not like we had notes being put out by bank of America and Goldman Sachs every four days saying, by the way, stocks are gonna go down because the bubble is gonna burst. Like we didn't have like before the dot com burst. Like, yes, there were some people saying like, hey, this seems like a bubble, but the fact that we all know that it's a bubble, that it's going to burst. And that's not just like takesters like us who don't like these companies saying that, these are financial analysts who are saying that even the AI companies themselves, if you kind of read between the lines of what they say, they kind of acknowledge that it is a bubble that is going to burst. At least in the sense that even if you buy their biggest claims for AI, they believe there can only be one winner out of all of these different companies, which means all the other companies are going to have to fail. So that by definition is a bubble that is going to burst. But we're also in this weird place right now where the bubble is not actually the AI companies. The bubble is the data center and chip companies that do like the infrastructure that goes to the AI. So part of the weird market logic here is you can believe AI is bullshit, but still believe that tech companies are going to continue spending on data centers and chips, which it seems like they probably are. Which is how we're in this weird place where we all know this is going to burst eventually. But we also, you know, a rational analyst can look at this and say they're probably going to build more data centers. So it makes sense to keep riding this to the Top even knowing that it's going to explode eventually.
- [09:24]
A
And, you know, I know Nvidia released earnings this week and everyone was like, oh, well, there's good enough revenue there, they're making money. But that sort of speaks to the issue. And these AI companies are taking in revenue as well, but with the amount of investment that has happened so far and the amount of just debt that's being taken out, it just seems like I'm trying to figure out a revenue stream or an amount of revenue that's going to like, ever make them truly profitable. Because, you know, you have a ton of people around the world paying for ChatGPT and LLMs. You can sell sort of like business versions. They're souped up for more money, you know, enterprise versions. And then. But then it's like, there's gotta be some. It seems like they're all betting on some big leap forward that's going to like, open up all these other uses for AI and all these other possibilities that then. And then they figure out, oh, well, then that'll create a whole bunch of other companies and businesses and then the problem will solve itself. It seems like.
- [10:31]
B
That's right.
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A
Like, you know, I realize that's not the most sophisticated explanation, but it really feels like that's what they're all betting on.
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B
No, totally. And I saw some analysts put something out that said that in order for the industry as a whole to become profitable, they would need every single smartphone user in America to start paying $150 a month for access to AI. Or if you had or it was like every Netflix customer had to be spending more than that. It's crazy numbers, but the rational irrationality about a bubble is they can all know that they're never going to hit that number. But they're in an arms race against each other now. So they're all trying to outspend one another to knowing that they're never. I mean, someone did the math and found that just the amount of on the books depreciation for the AI infrastructure that has already been built is gonna be something like half a trillion dollars a year. Like way more than they could ever make in revenue, to the point where it's like basically mathematically impossible for them to make a profit.
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A
Look, I think this country's really cooking. The economy right now is built on data centers and private prisons, the two things that are really booming right now. Everything else probably want to look elsewhere.
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B
I know, yeah, it's that in health care basically, right. If you're getting a little Older and you need to be, you know, wheeled into a nursing home with your AI center, then you're doing great. But that's pretty much it.
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A
I should also point out that the AI bubble bursting is like the might be the better scenario than the AI not bursting and then the robots taking over everything, which we haven't talked about in a while. But I feel like I have become, in the interviews I've done since you've left and everything I've read, I've become much more anxious about that possibility than I was before.
- [12:25]
B
I have been listening and it's. Yeah, it had the same effect on me. I hadn't quite thought of it that way. That in order for the bubble to not catastrophically burst, we're going to have to become the matrix. Basically those the two options we have at this point. I do think that financially, economically, the bubble bursting at this point would not actually be so catastrophic for people. It would be bad if you work in tech, but for the rest of us, we would be basically okay. Because it's not like 2007 where what was so catastrophic about the housing market collapsing was first of all, we all live in housing and there were all of this like weird debt intertwined that brought all of these banks down. And now most of it is financed off of the spending from these huge tech companies that are plowing trillions into it. So you know, if Meta goes down.
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A
I don't think we're going too sad scenario for you. I don't know if you saw the news. This is another question that Trump is like threatening an executive order to curb states laws regulating AI. They tried to get this through the bill, the tax cut bill in the summer. I think it was like pulled out last minute. It was like one of the minor wins we talked about. But now Trump is like really wanting to do this through an eo. And I just thought today that actually oddly enough House Republican leaders, Senate Republican leaders too are urging him to hold off on this. And I don't know if that's because they just want to do it through legislation or because, you know, I saw Marjorie Taylor Greene, our new welcome to the Resistance host again, you know, opposing this idea to like curb states powers and, and Even like Ron DeSantis is against it and other Republicans. It seems like it's an interesting issue that may be splitting their base. But I don't know what you think about that.
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B
I mean the kind of the standard read on this is that he wants the stock market number to keep going up. As you mentioned that's AI data centers at this point is what's keeping that number up. My theory, and this is just like a pet theory, has always been that Trump loves nothing more than to be like the strong man twisting the arms of big companies to extort them, especially the AI companies to extort concessions from them. Regulation is his point of leverage for that. If this states are regulating AI companies, that dilutes his power and his ability to bully these companies. And to say, you know, everything goes through me. If you want something, then you have to promise another fake trillion dollar investment or whatever.
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A
There's another reason too, which is more ideological, he said. And I don't know if this is other people telling him this or what he really believes, who knows? But he was in an event this week and said it would be a, quote, disaster for 50 states to regulate AI, quote, because then you would have one woke state. And like Ted Cruz has been saying this too, that like, if we allow blue states to regulate AI, we're going to have a bunch of woke AI models.
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B
That's true. Yeah. Because you would have to defer to the California regulation.
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A
Clearly, this is what Elon is worried about building, you know, Grok and Grokopedia and all the rest of it. And it really is pretty disturbing to me that the people in power right now want to have influence over the creation of these models, because I do think they can fuck with them enough to make them, you know, sound like maga.
- [15:43]
B
Sure. I mean, JD Vance just texted Bezos. I'm sure you saw this, to say, you better put a right winger in charge of political reporting at the Washington Post. So, yeah, of course they're going to. I mean, this again, goes to. They want leverage over these companies specifically. But, yes, I think it's also the case that they want to be able to tell them what to do ideologically. I always try to just give myself a mental test, like, imagine that the, you know, tables returned, the, you know, the shoe is on the other foot. Whatever. It would make some sense to me why you would want federal standards for something like AI rather than kind of a weird patchwork of states. But of course we know that that's. We're not going to get real federal regulations while Trump is in power.
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A
Yes. No, and I think we talked about this a long time ago, and I do, I understand the desire for sort of like one standard regulation or one standard law regulation, whatever it may be. But, you know, in this environment with Trump as president, it feels like I don't trust the people in power to do this. And so you kind of want it to go to the states, at least for a little while. But at some point, if we don't want this to be a complete disaster, we're not be able to avoid having to have some kind of legislation around this.
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B
I mean, politically, it's great to have a wedge issue to divide the Republican caucus, especially because AI and data centers are so unpopular nationally. Something to call attention to that and to call attention to the split between, you know, the fact that Ron DeSantis is to Trump's left on this is crazy.
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A
Gree d from Discord. These names.
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B
But I read it earlier, I didn't know what it meant, but now hearing you say it, I get it.
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A
Same. Max, do you have a favorite piece of art? Be it book, movie, TV show, song, it doesn't have to be good art that reflects your anxiety about AI and how it's being handled, what the impact of AI on society, your life might be. And then they give an example of a song that was quite disturbing. The video.
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B
It's a crazy song.
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A
Over Powers the father, you join in the hunt to a thousand imposters. What is the difference?
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B
If people want to Google it, it's called Things Will Get Much Worse from here by Kill Bill X Ray X Hatsune Miku, which it's on my workout playlist.
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A
So it's a lot. It comes at you. There's just a lot of high century. It does. It feels like things are getting worse. Just. That's so it's, you know, it's titled. Titled, appreciate any. What do you think? Do you have a favorite piece?
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B
I. For me, it's gotta be that episode of the studio where Ice Cube comes out and starts chanting fuck AI over the Kool Aid man movie. And he's right. We don't need any AI in our Kool Aid man movie.
- [18:24]
A
No, that's a great episode.
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B
It's incredible. I was thinking about this. I actually don't know if my anxiety level around AI is super high relative to kind of everything else, even just everything else in technology and the stuff that we talk about. I am for sure anxious about many aspects of it. The things that I'm most anxious about would not make for a great movie. It's people getting dumber, meeting literacy, like kids not learning how to read. Does it make for a great movie? I guess Eddington gets pretty close to it. What about you?
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A
Well, the next question is from Amphistaff about asking, is there any good movie or TV shows you've seen lately? And this person mentions Pluribus on Apple. Have you started Pluribus?
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B
I have. It's beautiful to look at. You look like you.
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A
This is a show.
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B
It's about AI.
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A
About AI sure. It took me, like, two episodes to sort of figure that out. I guess we can talk about it for those who've seen it. So spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. It's a very big. It's a very big thing that happens in the first episode. Oh, no, I don't want to spoil it for Emma. Okay. Oh, Emma's here too. And everyone at the. Okay. Sorry, Delon.
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B
It's like the premise of this show, you know?
- [19:31]
A
So in Pluribus, it basically, there's like an apocalyptic event that happens, and basically everyone who survives minus 11 people are part of this, like, the same collective consciousness. It's like they're like a hive mind, and it's them versus, you know, the protagonist is this woman, Carol, that we follow around. And the reason it's like AI because it feels. It basically reflects one of my biggest fears of AI which is a world where you can get everything you need.
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B
Totally.
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A
But have never been unhappier, because they are trying to convince her to join them in this collective hive mind, and they are willing to give her everything. They don't want to kill her. They want to keep her alive. They want to give her anything she needs, answer any question she has. They don't lie. They give her all the information. But why do you want that over Free will?
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B
Totally. Yes. It really nails the voice of AI and ChatGPT, where it's both obsequious but also creepy. And it feels kind of terrifying, like the Borg is coming for you, but also, like you're saying, wants to give you everything that you want. But, of course, as human beings, that is not actually what we want and actually what we're after. I'm very curious to see where they take this kind of metaphor about the relationship between human beings and AI, But I agree, it really nails the feeling of being surrounded by AI content and it being not human. It being this, like, uncanny valley. Like, it feels wrong even, as you know. And there are other characters in the show, not just the main character, Rhea Suhart, but these other characters who are also still human, and they love it. And she's looking at them like, what's wrong with you?
- [21:17]
A
They're using the chatbots in the LLMs all the time, and they're like, that's great. They're giving me everything I want. And they give great advice and they're cool and they're very nice to me.
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B
They're using Grok as their therapist. Yeah. You know, actually hearing you talk about it does make me more. I was a little cool in the first few episodes, but hearing you talk about it makes me more excited to watch the new one that just came out.
- [21:36]
A
It's my biggest concern about AI because this, to me, is the concern that I'd have in the best case scenario for AI, which is that it doesn't take over the world or unleash bioweapons or, you know, all the. All this really scary stuff. But all the financial incentives are to keep you on the platform, just like social media platforms. And so it's never going to not be obsequious and flattering all the time. And it's going to suck people into this world where it's so much easier and friendlier to talk with your LLM all day than to actually go have friction points in your relationship with other people.
- [22:15]
B
It's a great case for the power of using art or mass entertainment to make these really salient points, because, like, you and I can and I'm sure will continue to shout into microphones about, like, using LLMs might feel good, but you're eroding your humanity. But to put it into, like, you're saying a show like this, where they say, okay, let's take it to the farthest possible degree of the quote, unquote, best version of this, and I'm gonna show you how dehumanizing that is. And then you can kind of feel it inside in a way that, I mean, I'm sure, you know, we're transforming people's emotions through the show. But that, you know, is really effective when you kind of experience that version of it through. Another character for.
- [23:01]
A
Offline is brought to you by Naked Wines. Has anyone ever gifted you a really nice bottle of wine? I assume so, but I can't really tell. Huh. You know, my. My palette is red or white.
- [23:15]
B
You know, I. I really struggle with that too. And, and, but, but. But don't we have to say something that we have to land on Nike?
- [23:22]
A
I'll get there. I'll get there. I was just. I was just starting talking.
- [23:26]
B
I struggle with. I struggle with. I struggle with that too.
- [23:29]
A
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- [24:14]
B
Not with Joe Biden's economy lingering.
- [24:16]
A
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- [26:10]
B
So I'm kind of hoping you're going to disagree with me on this. I actually feel like privacy got raised a bunch as an issue, like 15 years ago, and we spent a lot of time talking about it. And the kind of consensus public opinion reaction was to be like, you know what? We really don't care. We like the gadgets and we don't care if we're losing our privacy. And there are reasons I might be sympathetic to that, reasons I'm not sympathetic to it. But it's just to say that, you know, it's good that Helicity cares about that and it's good that people are thoughtful about privacy. But when I think about the things that are effective or could be effective at kind of rallying people against the power of big tech, I think that it's stuff like harms to kids, radicalization, extremism, maybe more so than privacy, which I think it's very easy to make those concessions. And I do it too. Make these little trade offs day to day and be like, you know what? It's fine if the Russians see what I'm watching on Netflix.
- [27:06]
A
So I agree on privacy. I do think that in our current political environment, with ICE doing what they're doing and the Department of Homeland Security and all of the stories about the contracts with the Pegasus Light company where they're going to try to surveil our phones, so I do think there's potential for a bigger backlash than we have seen on privacy issues recently. I think what jumped out at me in Helicity's question, that to me makes it about more than just privacy, is manipulated via their algorithms. So I sort of took that to be. It's not just privacy, but just maybe I'm just. Maybe I'm just interpreting this as the question that I want us to answer. But I do think that there is a space for a candidate who just runs like hell against big tech. And not just in the big tech is too big, Lina Khan way, but these people and the machines in our pockets are robbing us of the things that make us most human and, you know, our free will, our time on this earth, the relationships we have with people that are sometimes clumsy and painful, but ultimately the most fulfilling thing we do while we're here. And I also think that is a feeling and an issue that cuts very deeply across Political lines. And it is a concern from religious folks, It's a concern from some MAGA folks you've heard. It's definitely a concern among us and progressives and many liberals. And I think that a movement, and I don't necessarily have the policy agenda for this movement, but I do think that key to a 2028 candidates overall message and narrative about the country has to include this issue. Because I think it's not a tech issue. I think it is an issue about how we are living right now and what it means to be alive in 2025, 2028 then, and what it means to like, make sure we leave something better for our kids in a way that I do think would resonate with a lot of people.
- [29:31]
B
It's actually. It's hard to think of the last time there was a company or an industry that was this nationally reviled and that people hated this much. I really can't think of cigarettes. Not even.
- [29:43]
A
Yeah, like oil companies sort of had their moment back in the, back in the day, but not as much cigarette companies. I don't know if anyone like, ran against cigarette companies as much. I guess back in the 90s there was some. Yeah. You know, Clinton did something on tobacco companies, but like, I think this is ripe. And I don't think that the way other candidates have run against Silicon Valley or Big Tech has been where people are like, I know that Warren did this in 20, but I don't quite think that message about like breaking up monopolies is the whole story, by any means.
- [30:17]
B
Right. Yeah. Hers was a much more macroeconomic message. And I think what you're talking about is much more about, you know, these companies in our homes.
- [30:26]
A
Yes.
- [30:26]
B
You know, they're, they're classrooms with our kids. Yeah. In our classrooms with our, you know, our elderly parents. Do you feel like there's anyone out there who you hear kind of speaking to this?
- [30:38]
A
No. No.
- [30:40]
B
Surprising.
- [30:41]
A
No, I should. I interviewed James Talrico on this program last week, and I think he, you know, he comes at it from a faith perspective, but I thought in a really smart way. I think Ro Khanna has been talking about this in a smart way. I think, Pete, of all the potential 2028ers, I know he's been thinking a lot about AI and the effects of AI, not just on the economy, but like on the way we live. So those are three people that come to mind, but I have not heard many others.
- [31:10]
B
Yeah. I feel like even the best versions of this that I've heard is much more about Corporate power and oligarchs, which for sure has resonance with people, but it doesn't have quite the same human level appeal and sense of human level danger that I think you're speaking to.
- [31:26]
A
Yes, took this question because it's about our buddy Elon who we haven't talked about in forever. Elon Musk made an appearance at the Saudi Investment forum and was at the White House dinner for mbs. Teddy Schlifer at the New York Times recently wrote that Musk is dipping his toes back into politics. What do you make of his return and what do you think of the new Tesla pay package? Trillion dollars for Elon, think that's deserved.
- [31:51]
B
So. Oh no, I mean, so the pay package thing is obviously this is part of a long standing issue where I think you can look at Elon, you can say this guy is a fuck up and he's crazy and this is a conversation we obviously had a lot a year ago. And yet how is he still kind of so fet in Silicon Valley? How does he still have his job? And I think part of what's, part of what's going on here is that he has stacked the corporate board with loyalists. But I think there's a deeper thing here, that there's what Elon wants you to think his job is and then there's what his job actually is. Like Elon wants you to think that his job is being the mad scientist.
- [32:28]
A
He's Tony Stark.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah, right, he's Tony Stark, he's Iron man, he's going to take us to Mars, blah, blah, blah. That's not actually what his job is. His job is to keep Tesla's stock price up. That's it, that's his, his job is that number and that little line. And Tesla continues to be wildly overvalued. It's nearly twice what it was right before Trump got elected in 2024. So, you know, maybe that will be something that bursts along with the wider tech bubble because this, it's all part of the same money chasing this like rising set of tech stocks, but is just to say that if you're looking at how clearly crazy and toxic he is and then looking at the fact that he just got 10,000,000,000,000 do from the Tesla board, that's kind of what squares that circle. As for his return to politics, look, anything that has him fighting with Trump I think is good news. Although actually he's so unpopular.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah, although Teddy's story was all about how like it was sort of this, like it was like a, like a couple it was a story about a couple that was like, trying to find their way back to each other and make up. It was like, you know, first at Charlie Kirk's funeral, they caught a moment together, and then he comes to the White House and Trump, like, pats him on the belly or something. It was very weird.
- [33:43]
B
Have you ever heard Elon go by the nickname Bubba? What do we think? Have we ever heard that? I'm just asking. I'm just asking questions. If Elon might be referred to occasionally as Bubba, for example, in various emails.
- [33:57]
A
It would answer a lot of questions, wouldn't it? Answer a lot of questions? Yes.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah.
- [34:02]
A
There was something at the end of this story that was just like, about Elon Musk's relationship with J.D. vance and how that is still quite close and how there's an expectation that he might be all in for JD in 2028. And I do think now when I hear about tech oligarchs who run large platforms saying that they're going to back a candidate, I used to think, oh, God, they have so much money that they're going to spend. And that's probably still the case. But now I think, oh, that's. There's a huge propaganda machine that comes with that.
- [34:39]
B
That is totally true.
- [34:40]
A
Now, I don't like two people, elon Musk and J.D. vance. I don't know if you've noticed, neither of them has a. The most charismatic personality, but I could see that.
- [34:52]
B
I know. And there's still this, like, wider tech alt, Right. Peter Thiel world kind of like around JD Vance that clearly sees themselves as the palace and waiting for after Trump. And part of me finds that almost kind of reassuring because these people are also incredibly unpopular, that it's like, okay, let's run it and see how few states you get. But there's also part of me that's terrified of that because, you know, he's the vice president and they're, you know, they're already fucking around with the election system and, you know, who knows how many more votes we're gonna have.
- [35:25]
A
I know. And my first instinct is, God, I hope it happens. Like, I, of course, you know, and then I think, I think of two other times I felt like this. Yep. I'll start with the obvious one, which is Donald Trump. Right.
- [35:40]
B
Hillary Clinton will win in a landslide.
- [35:41]
A
Right. And that was. He's such a buffoon and he's so offensive. Right. Which is, I mean, man, maybe it's easier in retrospect to understand why buffoon and offensive is not a deal breaker for the voting public. But the other time was in 2012 when we were looking at the Republican primary and from the White House when I was working with Obama and we were all like, God, it would be awesome if it was Mitt Romney, because we want to make this a choice about standing up for the middle class and, you know, fighting economic inequality and making sure that everyone has a chance against sort of the Republican version of this, which is trickle down economics, privatizing Medicare. And it was like, Mitt Romney is the perfect foil for this in that way. I do think J.D. vance, Peter Thiel, the tech oligarchs, Elon, from what we were just talking about what they are trying to do to the country and get away with, I do think it could be a really good foil. And I also think that they're humorless fucks. So I think that helps as well.
- [36:44]
B
I think it's a great outcome if we still have real democracy in 2028, which.
- [36:51]
A
Huge caveat. Huge. That's important.
- [36:53]
B
It's a significant asterisk. But I'm feeling a little less terrified about that that I have been after just the last couple of weeks after the election, not because I think that they've suddenly become good guys or they don't have all of these plans, but because they seem to think that they need to run normal electoral politics now. And their response to the elections was about we have to go out there and try to sell our economic message instead of saying, you know, let's cancel the next round of elections or let's put, you know, ice in more streets.
- [37:24]
A
I have a lot of fear that as they become more unpopular and get more cornered, that they will become more dangerous and lash out in ways that are unpredictable and quite scary. But that said, the fear I had on top of that before was, and most people are not going to care and maybe still support them. And I have less of that fear now. I do think that the opposition is real and also where it was, if not higher than in the first term and since. So I do think that's a reason for hope. Just looking at the history of authoritarian regimes and the regimes that tend to fall are where the authoritarian is not that popular. He's not polling at, you know, Putin levels or. And I realize that the polls there aren't really trustworthy, but you know what I'm saying, like there's, there's some authoritarians were like, genuinely popular. And I don't think that Trump is in that category at all.
- [38:25]
B
And the thing about any strongman or would be Strongman, is that at the end of the day, he's just one guy in an office. That's all he is. The only reason he has power at all is because there are all of these other people around him who treat him as having power. And I go through the same thought experiment all the time about if they get too unpopular, they're just gonna say, well, we just have to totally clamp it down because otherwise we're gonna get run out. But. But there is also a point where the wider system that holds him up is just going to say, you know what, maybe we're not. I mean, this happened in 2020 where there were a lot of people who said we're not going to execute on your order to. What was the order that he gave Melly? I can't remember what it was, but.
- [39:08]
A
Shoot the protesters in the legs.
- [39:10]
B
Yeah, he basically tried to do a coup in 2020 and there were a lot of people who around him who just said, no, we're not going to do that.
- [39:15]
A
That. Yeah, this time around we'll find out. Yeah, I was going to say this time around, Stephen Miller is not letting go of power. He is holding onto that ring, ripping it. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides all the tools you need to promote and get paid for your services in one platform. Whether you offer consultations, events or other experiences, Squarespace can help you grow your business. Create a professional website to showcase your offerings and attract clients. Squarespace offers a complete library of professionally designed and award winning website templates with options for every use and category. Every dream needs a domain Squarespace Domains makes it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all inclusive price. No hidden fees or add ons required. Every Squarespace domain comes with advanced privacy and security tools included to ensure your domain remains online and protected. With Squarespace email campaigns, all the tools you need to engage clients, promote your services and grow your businesses are built in. Set up email automations to stay connected, nurture leads and save time. Schedule emails that reach your audience at the perfect time, keeping your business top of mind and driving long term growth. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com offline to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com offline. This podcast is presented by the Netflix film A House of Dynamite from Academy Award winning director Kathryn Bigelow, starring Idris Elba and Rebecca Ferguson. Not only are critics raving about the film, with Deadline calling A House of Dynamite exceptionally powerful and brilliantly directed, but policymakers, experts and scientists alike are weighing in, proclaiming that the film is required viewing, a powerful and thought provoking movie and a movie of our time worth watching, mulling and debating. A House of Dynamite now playing on Netflix for your awards consideration. Oriharakaru A Discord asks how aware of you of your own information silo? I think it's probably human nature to think of our experiences as universal, but I'm reminded each week on Terminally Online the extent to which I have no idea what's going on in some corners of the Internet, despite having mortifying screen time numbers myself. It's a great question. There was a similar question about if we follow conservative outlets and influencers on our personal social media accounts, I feel like we could both probably take those together. What do you think? Are you cognizant of your information silo?
- [41:48]
B
I am, but it's my job to be. The answer that I was going to give to both of these listeners who asked, like you said, kind of similar questions is that I think it's okay to be in an information silo. You already have a job. You don't need to make your job following, you know, all these people you don't agree with and trying to get a wide range of views outside of things that you agree with and trying to reach out of, you know, your information sphere. You just want to make sure that the information in your sphere is good. Because that is literally the reason that media exists as an industry is that's our job. Our job is to go out and sort through the information, find the good, find the bad, you know, contextualize it, help make sense of it for you. So people put this, I think, burden on themselves sometimes that they say, well, you know, filter bubbles are bad and they aren't. Information silos are bad. So it's my job to go out and basically be my own one person media organization collecting all the information and learning everything. I don't think you need to put that pressure on yourself.
- [42:48]
A
I see it as my job to not have an information silo or to get out of my information silo all the time. So for me personally, I am trying to every day figure out in politics, agree on Terminally Online. I walk in there all the time and I'm like, what are you kids talking about? I have not. This is a viral Meme, I haven't seen it at all. I have no idea any of the people that you're talking about. So that happens frequently. But in politics, I need to know like everyone from what's going on in Nick Fuentes land to the MAGA establishment to the Never Trumpers to the lefties to the DSA to the annoying centrists that everyone finds annoying. Like I need to know it all. And I don't always succeed at figuring out knowing every story, but I at least try. And that's not just to like enrich my mind and make sure that I'm like hearing from all sides. I think it's just I kind of need to do it to analyze politics to the best of my ability.
- [43:42]
B
Yeah, I've always felt that if there's something that it's not a topic that I'm covering, that's kind of where it's not my job. It's fine for me to just pick a media organization or a voice that I trust, trust and just kind of outsource it to them. And if it's something that is within my job, whether it's something I'm covering, it's my beat, whatever that at that point, the standard I kind of use for myself is I need to know it well enough that if I read the big newspaper article about it, I should be able to know every paragraph. Like, is this framing quite right? Is this true? Is this the whole picture? That that's the kind of like standard that you need to set for yourself. But normies, absolutely.
- [44:17]
A
You don't need it.
- [44:18]
B
You don't need to take that burden on yourself. Yeah.
- [44:21]
A
Feanor asks Max, will there be a follow up to the Chaos Machine? What do you think?
- [44:27]
B
I don't, John. You know, there's nothing I hate more than writing because you share that with me. Honestly, I don't think that the world needs it. And I mean that in like a good way. Like six years ago when I was going to do the book, and maybe you felt this way when you started offline. Part of the impetus was it felt like people were not aware of this problem. People were not taking seriously the idea that big tech and social media could kind of like have this influence over all of us in our politics. So it felt like it made sense for me to go spend like three years locked in a room so I could re emerge with this book that like made the case for people. And today anything that I would say is already being said by people with a platform 10,000 times the size of mine. Because I feel like so much of this has become so accepted in the mainstream. I mean, like these movies that we're talking about, it's like, you know, popular TV shows are making the case. Like the Post. The Pope.
- [45:20]
A
We got the Pope.
- [45:21]
B
We got the second episode of Affline. Bob, thank you for listening. Great to have you on the team.
- [45:27]
A
Anytime you want to. Come on, Leo.
- [45:28]
B
I know. You know, he was even talking about the value of seeing movies in a movie theater instead of streaming it at home. I was like, get out of my brain.
- [45:36]
A
Pope woke Offline Pope.
- [45:39]
B
I know. It really is. No, he's waiting for you to do another round of the offline movie club. Then he's going to come. Come on. Then you've got it for sure. Yeah.
- [45:48]
A
I could see a chaos machine about AI, though. Like artificial intelligence. You just. You go and you do the whole. All the great reporting you did at Meta at other places, just go do it at OpenAI and Anthropic. I could see that we might need you in five years, maybe even sooner. So just think about it.
- [46:03]
B
I'll ask my GROK therapist in five years if I should do another book and see what it says. But thank you. That's kind you to say.
- [46:10]
A
Josh from Discord asks, how's your screen time holding up?
- [46:16]
B
I'm doing okay, John. I'm sure you're also.
- [46:18]
A
Yeah, I'm in the low fours now.
- [46:22]
B
Okay.
- [46:23]
A
Consistently. Yeah.
- [46:24]
B
That's great.
- [46:25]
A
So I think when we started the whole thing, I was in fives, high fives, even six. Emma's going. And now it's like consistently, consistently low force.
- [46:37]
B
What do you think got you down?
- [46:39]
A
I'm more aware of when I'm scrolling. Why am I scrolling? What am I doing this for? Is this the best use of my time? Is this what I really want? What am I looking for that I think I'm finding on my phone right now? And sometimes it's. I want to just read something. And then I'm like, okay, well, it's not like I put the screen down, but it's like, maybe I'll go read a whole article instead of scrolling through social media. And then I'm much more cognizant when I'm home between, you know, when I get home from the office and after the kids go to bed at, like, okay, I gotta, you know, I have the phone in case somewhere in the house and Emily needs to text me or someone else. But like, for social media, like, that's. That's a way. Put that away.
- [47:21]
B
That's the danger zone. I find that. And if I wake up in the middle of the night, I like, wake up and you're up for like 15 minutes and you can't sleep. Like, that's when. That's when the numbers pop up. Up by like 100% for sure is those weeks. So I find that a lot of it is just like, if I get better sleep and do the things I need to do in order to get better sleep, the screen time numbers go.
- [47:40]
A
Down same and I've actually been better at sleep. I have not been waking up as much, really, which is great. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.
- [47:47]
B
How'd you do it?
- [47:48]
A
I don't know. It just sort of solved itself. I feel a little more at peace, I guess.
- [47:52]
B
Amazing.
- [47:53]
A
I know with all that's going on, it's very. It's bizarre. Like, I don't feel at peace about the world. I still think everything's horrible. But I'm not swirling as much anymore because I'm like, you know what? That's just. That's not useful to me. That's not useful to the world.
- [48:05]
B
I do feel like the last few months especially, maybe it's just because I spent so much time, like you say, swirling about just what's going to happen. I didn't make peace with it. I still think it's just as bad now as I thought it was gonna be or feared it was gonna be. And it could well get worse. And I'm still like, I, you know, I'm taking down a lot of ICE videos every single day, and they are really upsetting and I think they're just gonna get worse. But I do feel like, I don't know, it's not that I'm ready to live in this world, but I just, like, I understand that we're here now and I understand, like, I feel like I can at least face up to it on an individual level, which I don't know if you saw one battle after another. The new Paul Thomas Anderson, but that's. It's incredible. It speaks to this moment better than any movie I've ever seen speaks to a specific moment. Politically.
- [48:53]
A
I really. I really gotta go through it.
- [48:55]
B
It's really good.
- [48:56]
A
K Chan 1197 wants per our screen time conversation asks us, my new year's resolution is to get my screen time down to four to five hours. Any tips on getting started?
- [49:06]
B
I mean, you just had some pretty good ones, I thought. And I think the best one is the one that you hit on, which is catch yourself scrolling and Saying, what's the thing that I'm feeling that is making me want to scroll? Is it, am I anxious? Am I upset about something? Am I just bored? And then try to think about what's a better way to address that feeling. Because scrolling on your phone is not actually going to fix it. Even though it feels good to do it in that moment. And then like on a more practical level, you know, put your phone in the other room at night to the extent that you can. I find helps a lot because you will get better sleep, you'll be less anxious, you look at your phone less and having a paperback with you is nice. You find yourself looking at your phone and you think, maybe I'll just pick up, read three pages of the paperback.
- [49:47]
A
I think all those are great. I would also say like after you've been scrolling for a while, really note to yourself how you feel after that.
- [49:55]
B
Totally.
- [49:55]
A
And think about that feeling next time you want to keep doing it. Because I do think that sometimes you're like, you know what? I just felt sort of shitty after doing that. But you then move on to the next thing and you don't really dwell on it. And I think it's good to dwell on that actually.
- [50:08]
B
Yeah, Abe, smoke the whole pack for yourself.
- [50:11]
A
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B
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- [52:16]
A
Gogginator asks, what was your favorite conspiracy theory of 2025? I got one.
- [52:22]
B
Okay, let's hear it.
- [52:25]
A
That Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.
- [52:28]
B
Well, what is a conspiracy theory? Can we. Have you talked about the. The drink name that you all had at Crooked Con?
- [52:39]
A
Oh, yeah, Jeff.
- [52:41]
B
Jeffrey didn't tequila himself. Incredible.
- [52:44]
A
Amazing.
- [52:44]
B
Absolute work of art.
- [52:45]
A
Didn't know about it until I got to the party, by the way. When I was. Then I thought it was great.
- [52:48]
B
Yeah, no, I've actually come around on this one too. I always rolled my eyes at it and the last couple of months I was like, wow, maybe Trump did fucking have him killed.
- [52:56]
A
I roll my eyes at every conspiracy theory. I really just. It's really hard to get me to believe a conspiracy theory. I still don't. I don't really know if I believe this one, but of all of them over the last year, this is the one where I'm like, I wouldn't be shocked to learn this. At this point. I'd be surprised, but I wouldn't be shocked.
- [53:13]
B
I know it's starting. There's more. More circumstantial. Not evidence, I think, directly for it, but it's like it feels more in line with the things that he is doing around this case and the incredible preferential treatment that I always forget how to pronounce her name. Gieslane. Maxwell Ghislaine. Ghislaine. Maxwell Ghislaine. Thank you. That she's getting, like, waited on hand and foot in prison now I'm like, okay, I don't. Maybe there is something weird going on.
- [53:37]
A
Here in the video that doesn't really show. I mean, it's just a. I know I went frame by frame through that video a couple months ago. It's been a weird time.
- [53:45]
B
Personal Zapruder tape.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah, it's my Zapruder tape. It's weird. It's weird, man.
- [53:50]
B
I started thinking about mine. I was like, what's my favorite from this last year? And then I started to get really stressed out, and I couldn't figure out why. And then it was like, oh, I'm trying to hold the entirety of 2025 in my head, which is a terrible thing to ask somebody to do.
- [54:02]
A
Yeah, that's tough.
- [54:04]
B
So I. The thing that I came up with was actually from just like three days ago. Did you see this Theo Vaughan thing when Theo Von went on Rogan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Theo Vaughn went on Rogan. And, you know, it's gonna get good. When the boys are chatting, he started talking about how, you know, he was talking to someone at some building, and the guy said, I'm building 10 floors for a talent agency and 10 floors for the CIA. And Dionvana saying, the CIA is everywh.
- [54:32]
A
Right. In Century City. La.
- [54:33]
B
Yeah, I know, right? And someone figured out, like, no, that's the caa, Theo. The caa.
- [54:40]
A
Which is. He's talking about the CAA building in Century City. So that's the famous building plus the city. And even saying caa, CIA. I mean, I understand it like, right. It's very close. But it's so funny. It's so funny that, like, if, you know, Century City, too, it's just like, and here's. Here's caa, and here's. And here's the caa. Here's a Langley outpost.
- [55:08]
B
I had another one that I really enjoyed that I just happened upon when I was looking around. So Trump a few months ago said that this is going to sound familiar at first. He said that the 2020 election was rigged via mail in voting and that no countries have mail in voting because it's so corrupt and it's so easy to steal elections that way. Way doesn't sound new. Right? Except someone asked him his source in that and he said, Vladimir Putin told me, he said, that's how I know mail in Vooding is working, because it's. And if it's just like, we're really streamlining the Kremlin disinformation pipeline at this point. It's like, we're not doing any of this fucking around with Facebook memes anymore. Putin is just calling Trump directly to give him the disinformation.
- [55:50]
A
I know every. It makes me think back to, like, 2016 and 17, and it's like, is Trump a Russian agent or what do they have on him? The answer is. The answer is, it depends on your definition of Russian agent. Because if it's just Putin tells him something and he believes it, then I don't know how much of a secret that is. You know, Putin tells him to do.
- [56:08]
B
Something and then he acts on it. Yeah. It is just kind of like, if there's no cover up, is it still a scandal anymore?
- [56:14]
A
Yeah. No, he just tells them what he wants them to say to the American people, and he'll do that.
- [56:19]
B
That's crazy.
- [56:20]
A
Luke Broge asks as a young person, what does 6, 7, and 41 tell us about younger generations and the Internet? Max, I just want to say that I saw this question, and so I used the opportunity last night to figure out what 6, 7, and 41 mean. And as I was, like, 10 minutes into it, like watching some fucking explainer, I was like, this is so sad and dark for me that I am, like, preparing for a show by learning about this unbelievably popular and now past its prime.
- [57:01]
B
Right.
- [57:01]
A
Incredibly viral thing that the young kids are doing. It made me so deeply embarrassed and ashamed that that's when I went to bed last night. I was like, stop, stop it. Just go to bed.
- [57:11]
B
That's why you're getting better sleep.
- [57:13]
A
Yes, that is why I'm getting better sleep.
- [57:15]
B
Jessica, you're so ashamed of your research. Why didn't you just ask your kids?
- [57:19]
A
They don't know yet.
- [57:20]
B
Definitely not too young.
- [57:21]
A
Charlie's too young, I think.
- [57:22]
B
So what did you conclude?
- [57:24]
A
I'm glad that I did read about it, look it up for a little bit, because I might have done the typical John and Max, like, let's stand on our lawn and yell at the kids to get off our lawn. And instead I was like, you said something in the notes of the doc that I thought the same thing, which was we all had inside jokes with our group of friends as kids that were completely inane and didn't mean anything, and no one outside that group would understand anything we were talking about. It was not funny to them. And because there was no social media back then, it stayed within that group. And maybe the out group was just like other kids in the class. And that was it. And it was fun to have that, like, insight. Now you're socializing and interacting with every other kid in the world. And so when something becomes an inside joke, it's an inside joke for an entire generation. And that's why it's everywhere. Right? Like, it's just. It's It's a. It's. It's different.
- [58:19]
B
Yeah, we mourn the loss of the monoculture, but here it is, it's six, seven.
- [58:23]
A
That's. And that also sort of brought me in. I'm like, you know what? Good. It's a cool thing. I can imagine you're. You're sitting around, you see the opportunity because someone has six and you're like, oh, great, I can do it. I can make the joke. My friends are gonna laugh. Great. Love it. Harmless. Wonderful.
- [58:36]
B
I know. I feel the same way. I can't get upset about this one.
- [58:39]
A
Fun question from the Discord. What the hell are you up to, Curly? Guessing that was for you.
- [58:47]
B
That's me. That is actually my alt on the Discord is curly. It's very nice of you to ask and very nice you to put this in here and give me a little promo window. So it feels silly and is a little annoying to be secretive about this because there's no actual reason it needs to be a secret. I'm working on something that is going to launch in January and we just like, we want to give it a little pop when it launches. I will say if I can be even more annoying about it and do a little teaser bullshit.
- [59:15]
A
Please do.
- [59:16]
B
Very nice to indulge me in this. So what I will say is I'm launching it in partnership with someone who has been on offline, who has been on the show, has his own little media startup, who I'm working with.
- [59:28]
A
Is it Ross Delthat?
- [59:30]
B
It's Ross Delphin. That's right. Yeah, it's Chris Murphy.
- [59:32]
A
Okay, good.
- [59:35]
B
And we've been thinking a lot about what people want from the media right now. How do we actually reach people in this environment? The kind of stuff that you and I talk a lot about. And how do we meet people where they are and bring them high information, journalism and news. This will be by far the most produced and resource intensive thing I've worked on, which is a little bit terrifying. But we will be blowing up the inboxes of Emma and Austin soon enough to.
- [60:03]
A
I love this hopefully come from. I'm so excited for you, man.
- [60:06]
B
Oh, thanks, man. That's so nice of you to say. I appreciate that.
- [60:09]
A
Also, you're married. That's the other thing that you're up to.
- [60:11]
B
That's right.
- [60:12]
A
You and Julia are married.
- [60:13]
B
I don't know if they're in my ring on.
- [60:15]
A
But people get the idea.
- [60:16]
B
Yeah. So for people listening, I just, I held up my fingers of which I've.
- [60:21]
A
Been there Was nothing there. I'm like, are you married? I thought just saw you guys the other weekend.
- [60:26]
B
We tried and things were going well. It started out well, but we get it. No, yeah, yeah, we got to. Which I believe is still the first and only crooked marriage.
- [60:34]
A
Yes. Yeah, that is true.
- [60:36]
B
So unless you count Lovett and Pundit.
- [60:39]
A
Oh, right. Yeah. Well. Oh, I guess. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Well, Lovett's about to have the second, so let's share.
- [60:45]
B
Okay. That'll be the. Yeah, we beat them to it. That's the important thing is that we. Yes.
- [60:50]
A
I'm really excited about that. I wanna. I can't wait to hear more about it. And obviously, obviously you'll come back on to talk about it.
- [60:58]
B
I can't wait. That's very kind.
- [61:00]
A
Cacti and cats on Discord. What's the likelihood of Favs getting into a Twitter fight over the holiday break? Great question.
- [61:08]
B
I think your last big one was over. Wasn't like Vance over last Thanksgiving.
- [61:13]
A
Yeah. Was it over last Thanksgiving? I can't remember.
- [61:16]
B
It was so. It was over the holidays.
- [61:18]
A
If there is a news lull, I feel like the chances are pretty high that I will not get into a Twitter fight. Like I can sometimes feel when there's, you know, there's. There's conflict in the air on the Internet, on Twitter and people are yelling about stuff. It's usually like, you know, either. I mean, sometimes, of course, the vice president reaches out and calls me a dipshit and so that things go from there. But sometimes there's like an intra left sort of anxiety or conflict brewing that I could see myself getting pulled into sometimes, unfortunately. But things seem calm out there and I would like to not get in a fight. A Twitter fight over the holiday break. I would like to avoid that.
- [61:57]
B
If you were gonna get in a Twitter fight with someone in the top levels of the Trump administration, who would be your first choice and your last choice?
- [62:07]
A
Love to get in a fight with Stephen Miller.
- [62:10]
B
Yes, that would be. You guys have had a couple back and forth.
- [62:13]
A
Couple back and forths. I find him maybe the most loathsome figure in the Trump administration. And dangerous though. J.D. vince is close. It's close. I also. Anyone at the Department of Homeland Security is on my shit list as well. So anyone from there, the spokesperson there, Trisha McLaughlin and Christina. All of them. They're just horrible people.
- [62:34]
B
I want to see you get into it with Greg Bevino. And you know what I especially want to see? I want to see Favs versus Loomer that's the one that's at the top of my. Cheat you and Laura Loomer, because she's back on Twitter now.
- [62:45]
A
Oh, no, thank you. No, thank you.
- [62:47]
B
Okay. Okay. Fair enough.
- [62:48]
A
But, yeah. Okay. All right, last question. Favorite Thanksgiving dish?
- [62:53]
B
You know, normally I'm a big, salty guy, so I want to say stuffing, but the truth is, Thanksgiving, it's desserts. I love the sweets of Thanksgiving. They're so great. Some cranberry. Get some good. Some gourds in there. Some kumpens. Some sweet potatoes that nice. Like, it's really, like, desserts with a little savory tart twist to it. Oh, it's fantastic stuffing.
- [63:14]
A
My mom's stuffing, which is. My grandmother used to make it, and now my mom makes it. It's. And it's walnut stuffing. So there's. Oh, yeah. And she's in it. Yeah. And it's got these little sort of cookies, like, cake bread cookies that are in there. Crumbled in there as well. Crackers. I don't even know. Like, it's, like, hard to get. My mother's, like, she's. She's always having a hard time getting them anymore. I think she has to, like, import them from Massachusetts. But anyway, I'm looking forward to the stuffing by now. I'm hopefully having stuffing and turkey sandwiches this. Because it's Saturday, but.
- [63:45]
B
That's right.
- [63:45]
A
Yeah. Are you guys sticking around where you are?
- [63:48]
B
We are going up to Massachusetts to do it with Julia's family.
- [63:52]
A
Nice.
- [63:52]
B
And I feel like that's the perfect use case for suburban Massachusetts. It is a nice Thanksgiving. You know, you drive around, you go to the grocery store, you go for a little walk outside, a little chill in the air.
- [64:02]
A
I'm jealous.
- [64:03]
B
It's nice. It makes me miss LA a little bit. You know, when it's, like, warm over the winter holidays is always kind of fun.
- [64:09]
A
I like being in the Northeast for the fall. Like, we had a wedding in Maine, and it was, like, a beautiful late September day, and I was just, like, walking around Maine, and the leaves were changing. I was like, okay, this is what I miss. This is what I miss this season.
- [64:24]
B
Yeah, it was really nice moving here at, like, the start of the fall and really enjoying it, but also knowing that there's a giant anvil over my head just waiting to fall, because I have not done a winter up here since I was, like, 22, and I barely survived it.
- [64:39]
A
Get ready. Brother Max, thank you so much for joining.
- [64:43]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [64:44]
A
Good talking to you, pal. And have a great rest of your holiday. Have a good holiday in December and then we'll see you when you got something to announce.
- [64:54]
B
I'll be back.
- [64:54]
A
All right, take care. Two Quick Housekeeping Notes if you've had your eye on any Crooked merch, this weekend is the time to get it. For a great deal, grab gifts on sale from new Friend of the Pod hoodies to stocking stuffers, the whole site is 25% off this weekend only. Head to cricut.comstore to shop the sale. Also, think about becoming a Friend of the Pod subscriber at Crooked, we're trying to help millions of people cut through the noise with facts, humor and good conversation. If you love our shows, or even if you just really like them but aren't ready to call it love yet, please consider subscribing to Friends of the Pod to support our work directly. Your subscription helps us keep making the shows, newsletters and deep dives you enjoy. It also unlocks perks like ad free episodes and exclusive content like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. Plus, it's a meaningful way to invest in the kind of media you want more of. And if you need an extra reason to subscribe this holiday season, we're offering 25% off annual subscriptions through November 30th. So head on over to crooked.com friends to subscribe. As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us@offlinericket.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline and Pod Save America, exclusive content and more, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilic Frank Austin Fisher is our Senior producer. Adrian Hill is our Head of News and Politics. Jarek Sentence Teno is our Sound Editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel. Take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episodes as videos every week. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.
- [67:18]
B
At Etsy. We know the holidays are already exciting, but we can't help adding a little extra joy to the season. Get up to 60% off original gifts from small shops with Etsy Cyber specials. Terms apply for gifts that say, I get you shop Etsy. We all take good care of the things that matter.
- [67:36]
A
Our homes, our pets, our cars.
- [67:39]
B
Are you doing the same for your brain? Acting early to protect brain health may help reduce the risk of dementia from conditions like Alzheimer's disease. Studies have found that up to 45% of dementia cases may be prevented or delayed. By managing risk factors, you can change. Make brain health a priority.
- [67:57]
A
Ask your doctor about your risk factors.
- [67:59]
B
And for a cognitive assessment, learn more@brainhealthmatters.com.