← Offline with Jon Favreau
Offline with Jon Favreau
Momfluencers, Baby Gadgets, and the Perils of Parenting in The Digital Age
01:07:57
Are we surveilling our children too much? Do we need fancy gadgets to track their sleep? Should we be taking so many pictures of them? Longtime New York Times culture critic Amanda Hess joins Offline to discuss why the optimization of childhood may just be another empty promise of the information age. Amanda's new book, Second Life, follows her digital identity crisis as she grapples with her newborn baby's rare genetic disorder, traversing the Facebook groups, Reddit threads, spy cams and momfluencers she and other parents use as a 21st century substitute for a proverbial village.
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- [00:01]
Jon Favreau
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- [01:12]
Amanda Hess
We really have absorbed this neoliberal idea that like everything can be made a market and everything can be assigned a value. And that's like the best way to like decide what's good. So even when you are looking at your baby who like, of course you want to be successful, of course you want them to be good. You want them to be like a good baby, to be like the best child that they can be or whatever. I at least found that I was just like uncritically in some ways applying this system that when I think about it, I find quite horrifying actually to my child where if I got a data set from him from sleeping, I used a crib that would tell me the hours and minutes that he slept. And I saw that he slept 20 minutes more than he did the night before. Like, I would be so happy about that number that my literal baby has no idea what that is. He doesn't know why I'm happy, you know, why I'm like congratulating him on like his night or whatever. It's like so deranged.
- [02:17]
Jon Favreau
We do that too. We're like, we're like, hey, you know what two hour nap? Today wasn't one hour and a half like yesterday. We got a full two hours napping king.
- [02:25]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, foreign.
- [02:33]
Jon Favreau
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Offline. So today is our first episode without Max, and before we get started, I wanted to give you all an idea of what the show is going to sound like and look like now without him. As some of you might remember, I started the show to have conversations about all the ways the Internet is changing, how we live all the way work, interact with each other, and how spending so much of our lives online is shaping our politics, our culture, our economy, the media and information we consume, the way we raise our kids, our mental health, even our sense of purpose and happiness. I love having those conversations. I love learning from really smart people in different fields. So I want to go back to that. When there's a lot of news about technology and the Internet, which there often is, we will still cover those stories and we may bring on guest hosts to help me out from time to time, like Max. But either way, my goal is that each week, you and I can learn something new about life in our digital age, or at the very least, commiserate about the weird, scary world we live in so that we don't have to navigate that world by ourselves. Today I'm kicking us off with a conversation about having children in the digital age. Not necessarily raising children, but having them being a parent or preparing to be a parent, or even worrying about what it's like to be a parent. My guest is longtime New York Times Internet culture critic Amanda Hess, who recently published her first book, Second Life, a memoir about how becoming a parent changed her relationship with technology. It's both funny and moving. She takes us through the world of Facebook groups and Reddit threads, gender reveal videos, baby spy cams, momfluencers, and all the unexpected ways that parents search for answers. And community has been reshaped in the digital age. It's a great book. I genuinely couldn't put it down. And I'm very excited for all of you to hear my conversation with Amanda about how technology and the Internet has changed the way we think about parenting. Here's Amanda Hess. Amanda Hess, welcome back to Offline.
- [04:42]
Amanda Hess
Thank you so much for having me.
- [04:45]
Jon Favreau
I love your book. I love it.
- [04:47]
Amanda Hess
Thank you.
- [04:48]
Jon Favreau
It is funny, poignant, beautifully written, refreshingly different from any other parenting book I've read. I think it's because I was expecting another book on how to parent, and this is a book about being a parent, and especially being a millennial parent in the digital age. Which I can very much relate to. I think you said somewhere that you were initially planning on writing a book about technology and the Internet, and then when you became pregnant with your first son, that idea sort of morphed into this book. What made you want to make that shift and write this memoir instead?
- [05:27]
Amanda Hess
I had been writing about Internet culture and technology for a long time, and so I had this very cynical relationship with it where it was my job to just go into some Internet community and check it out or like a series of TikToks or whatever, watch them, like, figure out what I think about them, write about it, and then move on to something else. And so I had this very critical distance from technology. Even the stuff that I was just using for myself, I always had this kind of critics lens when I was using it. And it was only in pregnancy that that completely went away. And I just had this most. Just the most intimate, scary, intense, like, almost religious experience with my technology, and that I had never had a religious experience in my life. And so eventually, as I started to stagger out of that, I realized that that was really what I needed to write about.
- [06:36]
Jon Favreau
So how did your relationship with technology become so much more intense once you found out you were pregnant?
- [06:48]
Amanda Hess
Well, so at the time, I was using a period tracker called Flow, and I had downloaded it after I heard about what period trackers were. And I just downloaded the first one that came up on the app store and I started tracking my period. And I really liked it. It was really working for me. I basically had a relationship with it where I checked it once a month. It told me when to expect my period. I knew when I was gonna be pretty angry or sad for maybe no reason. It supplied a reason for that, and so helped me. And also, it was just this very casual relationship. I wasn't looking at it all the time. And that changed when I started to notice that of course, it's not just a period tracker, it also is a fertility tracker. It tells you when it thinks you're the most or least fertile. And as my husband and I started to think about having a kid, I just noticed it a lot more. And I kept sort of like looking at that. And so now I knew not just when to expect to be angry and uncomfortable, but when I was passing this time in a month where I was passing over what I saw as like, the opportunity to get pregnant. And I kept passing that over, and it sort of. It really just became like this idea of the ticking biological clock is like, you know, I think that's A pretty sexist cliche, but here it was like, it was in my hand. It was like, tick tock. Okay, you passed that date now, like, maybe you want to wait for the next one. And so that's when it sort of intensified. And then when I did get pregnant, I realized that there was this mode in flow called pregnancy mode that you can activate when you are pregnant. And so I activated pregnancy mode and it said, are you sure that you want to activate pregnancy mode? And I was like, yes, yes, I do. And it turned into this, you know, completely different interface that I was now looking at, like 10 times a day.
- [09:09]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I saw that. You said, you know, a lot of times you were not looking to flow for actual advice or real information, but it just becomes this checking habit and this sort of, like, sort of person. Not really a person, but some. A thing that you have a relationship with. I remember my wife Emily had something similar through both pregnancies. And I think for the first one, for our first son, I downloaded like one of, you know, the apps that tell you, like, and your child looks like pick the fruit or vegetable. It is a weird. It's a very weird experience.
- [09:46]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. And, you know, especially early in pregnancy, like, I wasn't talking about it to anyone except my husband, who also didn't know anything about being pregnant. You know, I didn't even typically, at least for me here in New York, like, a doctor didn't want to see me until I was like dating eight weeks pregnant or something. So I had just like these weeks that I was just waiting to even discuss it with anyone. And it was the only thing that I was thinking about. And, you know, if you're following like the general medical recommendations, there's a lot that you're expected to do in pregnancy to just like discipline your body in these completely, to me unexpected ways. And it wasn't that flow was like telling me what those things were because I could figure them out myself. But it was as if it was just like this check in buddy, that I like, I wanted some kind of feedback for all that I was giving to my pregnancy. I was giving up so much. I was sick. I was not eating or drinking the things that I normally would. I wanted something to recognize it. And like, flow was like always flow is there to do that. Yeah.
- [11:05]
Jon Favreau
We also had our first child during the pandemic, like you did. So I can very much relate to what you write about that experience. You said Covid stuck me in a looping preview of parenthood, trapped in my apartment, cleaning things With a moist wipe, the whole world remapped my anxious and isolated state. So when we were especially anxious or isolated or irritated, Emily and I would say to each other, is this parenthood, or is this the pandemic? I imagine you guys had a similar experience.
- [11:38]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. And I think it was something that I had that I figured out later that every new parent feels isolated. And actually, after my kid was born, there was a part of me that was, like, really smug that it happened during the pandemic. Cause I was like, listen, I can't leave my house because I have a newborn, but nobody else can leave their house either. You know, it was, like, in that way, but it did. It became this very intense, concentrated time that I think is, you know, was relevant to me in a slightly different way. Like when my second child was born in 2022.
- [12:15]
Jon Favreau
How was it different then?
- [12:16]
Amanda Hess
It was different in that, like, I could take him to a restaurant, but it was this. It was the same. Same in that, like, I don't know. I had always, like, you know, when you're young and living with roommates, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I was just, like, I was so excited to move into the first place that I just lived in alone, like, where I could do everything that I wanted, and it was just all suited for me. And then once I had kids, I realized, like, I am stuck in this apartment all of the time. Like, I. I'm so. I was so naive about kids, that this is the stupidest thing ever. But it just never occurred to me that, like, you can't leave the house even when they're sleeping. Like, you have to be there all night, even though, like, you're not. There's nothing to do. They're just, like, sleeping through the night or whatever. And so just, like, the way that our culture is set up, where we're all, like, living in these isolated spaces, we're all cooking in these isolated spaces, like, doing our laundry in these isolated spaces. It made me so angry because it was so inefficient. Like, I could just as easily have done, like, cooking for, like, another family, too. It was just like, I had to be constantly going back to my apartment where my kitchen was, where my kids could eat, because it was. Wasn't that easy to, like, feed them literally anywhere else.
- [13:38]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. When our. Our second was born in December of 23, and I remember, like, a couple months into it, we were like, wow, we can bring him to a restaurant or on a walk or, like, have him go See people at someone's house. We couldn't do that with Charlie. Right. Because it was July of 2020 when he was born. And I remember when Emily got pregnant, we thought, well, by the time July comes around and Charlie's gonna be born, then the pandemic will be over and we'll be able to go out. And it was like, nope, that is not the case.
- [14:13]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, yeah, I know. It was a lot.
- [14:16]
Jon Favreau
So you were around seven months pregnant when your doctor said he saw something he didn't like. Your son was ultimately diagnosed with Beckwith Weidman syndrome, a rare genetic disorder. And you write in a very moving, I think, relatable way about how your relationship with the technology changed again after the diagnosis. Everything from trying to Google your way out of the problem, which lots of people do with medical stuff, to eventually seeking out online communities of parents who were going through a similar thing. In what ways did that make you feel better, and in what ways did it make you feel worse?
- [14:58]
Amanda Hess
So when this happened, you know, I thought I was going in for a routine ultrasound that was just going to be very quick and that I would leave and then go on with my life and, like, you know, continue to plan my birth or whatever. And it lasted a really long time. And so even when I was there, like, sitting on the table with the technician who doesn't. If anyone has been in this experience, like, the technician won't tell you anything, any actual information. They're just taking the pictures. So I knew that something was different or wrong. And I had this feeling. This was also when my husband wasn't in the room with me, because you didn't have any support people there in 2020. And my first thought was not, I wish my husband were here with me. It was, I wish I had my phone here on the table so I could just, like, furtively Google the parts of my baby's face that this woman is mapping so that I can, like, assume some kind of informational control over this situation, that even though it is unfolding inside of my body, I have, like, no control over and I have no insight into. And I think, you know, everything that happened from there, it. It helped me in this way. Like, I hadn't realized in the seven months leading up to that that all of the pregnancy content that Flo had been giving me, that I had been getting from other, like, digital pregnancy resources or pregnancy books or whatever, is so focused on the typical pregnancy. It's focused on, like, the normal pregnant person and the normal fetus and the normal baby and the Normal child. And, like, it was such a shock to me to learn at that point that, like, all of these kind of tools that I thought were, like, so tailored to my pregnancy specifically were, of course, like, of course not. They're tailored to, like, hundreds of millions of people's pregnancies so that it seems to apply to all of us. But really, like, no one's pregnancy is, like, totally typical. No one's child is completely typical. And I think that's something that a lot of parents learn sometimes, like, after their kid is born. And I got to learn before he was born, which was great. The thing that sucked was that before I realized that I was just, like, madly, madly googling, trying to understand what my son was gonna be like, what he was gonna look like, what people were gonna think about him, and just seeding my imagination with all of these, like, basically, like, smears and lies about, like, the kind of person that he was going to be and really spending all of this time, like, stigmatizing my own child before he was even born. And it was only when he was born and I saw him that I was like, he's a. He's my. He's a human baby. He's, like, the cutest thing in the world. He's so incredible and amazing and, you know, of course. But his just, like, the idea of him. And the idea of him having this disability that I had never heard of was so alarming to me that I just, like, bathed myself in online content about it that is not set up to, like, help or reassure a person in my circumstances.
- [18:38]
Jon Favreau
No. And it's funny, because I remember you wrote that your doctor specifically said, this is what it might be. Don't Google it. And of course, they all say, don't Google it. Don't go online. And then you do, right? Because, I mean, and you write about this, I think, quite powerfully in the book, that what we really want is control. And we think the technology and the Internet, by virtue of giving us more information, gives us control. And in reality, it can't, you know.
- [19:11]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. I mean, he sent me home and said, you know, don't Google it. But I was going to come back, like, 24 hours later to have an amniocentesis, which is just this gigantic needle that they stick into you, and they take out these vials of amniotic fluid. And so, like, for those 24 hours and then for the four weeks until the last test came back from that, I was spinning out. Like, I needed to have someone to talk to about it. And Because I didn't. I needed, like, my phone to act like it was doing that for me. This was before AI was in every single thing. And I, like, I don't want to. I don't want to even think or imagine how that would have affected my experience. Because right now I'm like, there are people who are like, asking chatgpt spiritual questions. Like, that's stupid. But I would have been doing that at that time.
- [20:15]
Jon Favreau
I had the same thought reading the book, which is. I'm like, first I thought about it with Flo, who seems like a character, and then I was like, what if. And like today there's or. And certainly within a year or so there's going to be these chatbots, I'm sure, designed to help people through an entire pregnancy that give you information, help comfort you if you're having trouble, act like a doctor. And I wonder how that will change everything. And it doesn't seem like it's going to change for the better, even though it may. You know, at first glance, it might be nice to have more information at your fingertips and have someone comforting you, but I don't know that it can really replace actually talking to someone, like you said.
- [21:01]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, I mean, I've thought about that. I haven't actually gone in and done the searches that I would have done and seen when it spits back. But what I did when I Googled Beck with Wiedemann syndrome was find all of these sources that were a. Like, tabloids, like the Daily Mail had a story about a toddler who was born. I should say BWS is an overgrowth disorder. And so it causes, among other things, like most kids to be born with an extra large tongue. It also is a cancer predisposition syndrome, so it causes a heightened risk of certain pediatric cancers. So the first thing I found was a Daily Mail article of this toddler that it was like announcing in its weird all caps manner, like, was born with this enormous tongue and was like, fighting cancer. And his parents were, like, trying to raise money for as many surgeries. There's pictures of him in the hospital. And then I found medical sources that, you know, all of these images that had been taken in medical journals from that have been uploaded from, like, decades and decades and decades ago up to now, where children are, like, posed in this medical way. That's not the way that you would pose your child to take a picture to, like, put on your mantle. It's like them, like, laying down in this, like, prone position, maybe passed out, like from anesthesia with their Tongue maybe, like, pushed out as far as possible. And then I found, like, comments from people on Reddit that were, like, using BWS to make arguments about antinatalism, that children with that condition shouldn't be born because it's inhumane to just people who came across something on TikTok and were like, wow, that's gross. And so if I think about an AI that is trained on all of the human knowledge, people talk about this like, it's such a great thing. Like, all of the human knowledge about bws, like. Like, it's so. That stuff is so awful. And at least when I was paging through this stuff, I could step back and be like, okay, the person on the antinatalist Reddit page is probably a kid. I can go to their search history and see that all they're talking about is video games. Like, it's not personal. They just don't. They don't know what they're talking about. It's a lot harder with an AI.
- [23:30]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. At one point, you wrote about how this is what happens when the failures of the medical system collide with the incentives of social media platforms. And, you know, I think we all experienced that during the pandemic as well, too, around Covid. But it really is, like, medical health stuff mixed with people talking about it on social media. And everything that social media incentivizes really is a terrible mix.
- [23:58]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. I mean, I really felt like the Internet was the only place that I could go, and it's such a bad place to go, but it was the only place I had this experience where, like, after the amniocentesis, I was put in touch with a genetic counselor. I was, like, assigned a genetic counselor from LabCorp. And I remember being, like, the genetic counselor works for the laboratory testing company. And she's, like, advising me about which tests I should and shouldn't get. Like, I, you know, I definitely, like, put my tinfoil hat on a little bit where I was like, you know, but it's true. Like, it's. Is she incentivized to, like, tell me to get, you know, in some way completely out of her awareness, to get as most. The most test possible, even if that level of knowledge is, like, not the right thing for my family, because it's the right thing for LabCorp. And once you're in a situation where, like, medical care is monetized, even if you get pretty good medical care, like I did, it really just muddies the waters and it's impossible to sort of navigate them.
- [25:12]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. And, like, you said the place that you go for that is the Internet. Offline is brought to you by Zebiotics Pre Alcohol. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, you don't bounce back the next day like you used to. You have to make a choice. Either you have a great night or a great next day. But you know what? Pre alcohol answer to all your problems with the the rough next day from drinking. At least in in my experience, certainly. Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Love Zebiotics. We've been using it for a couple years now. Yeah, even before it was an ad on this show used Zbiotics when it was brand new and I can't stop talking about it to everyone I know. We're huge fans. Huge fans. Summer is here, which means more opportunities to celebrate the warm weather. Before that backyard barbecue, brew, glass of Pinot, watching the sunset at the beach, or cocktail by the campfire. Don't forget your Zbiotics Pre Alcohol drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great and ready to take on the next day and all that Summer has to offer. Go to ZBiotics.com offline to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Offline at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money, no questions asked. Remember, head to zebiotics.com offline and use the code offline at checkout for 15% off. Wait, you're not a Hotels.com member, so you're choosing to pay full price?
- [27:07]
Amanda Hess
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- [27:20]
Jon Favreau
You're welcome.
- [27:23]
Amanda Hess
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- [27:36]
Jon Favreau
There'S a lot of surveillance involved in Parenthood brands marketing products to you because they know you're pregnant. Psychological screenings after the baby's born. And then, of course, the surveillance of our kids, which you write about using the example of the Nanit, an app that is right on my home screen, for which people who. People who don't know. It's basically like a baby spy cam over their crib and then maybe their bed, depending on how long you keep it, right?
- [28:05]
Amanda Hess
How long you keep it.
- [28:07]
Jon Favreau
How do you think all this surveillance has changed the way that we parent today?
- [28:13]
Amanda Hess
I mean, I had this feeling during pregnancy that I was being so surveilled, like, by ad tech and by the apps that I was using, and they were really getting me used to this idea of some ephemeral outside authority, like checking in on me and making sure that I was doing pregnancy okay. And then when my kid was born, it was like, congratulations, Amanda, like, you are in the surveillance seat now, you know, and because, like, I was in such a vulnerable place. Like, I had never had a newborn baby in my house, like, ever. I didn't know, like, how to change a diaper. And it turns out, like, it's not that hard. And if you fail to change the diaper, nothing horrible happens. Like, it's fine, you know? You know, you just, like, try again. But just that general feeling like, I'm not prepared to be a parent, but the baby is here. Like, what do I do? I think any way that we can get a sense of control over that is desirable, especially if it's this way that we have sought control for, I don't know, like, 10 or 20 years of intense, like, Internet use, like I had. And I think, like, I don't know, you know, something like the nanit really turns. It turns your phone into this, like, child focused entertainment console. And like, I do find my kids so entertaining. And like, they're, you know, I love to watch them. I love even more to watch them when I don't have to, like, stop them from running into the street or like, you know, get them to like, pick up their food off the floor, like, captivating this idea of watching them at night. Yeah. When they're in their room, they're in the dark is like, so seductive. But what I realized, like, I set up a nana in my house, like, briefly for a few months to test it out. And it was not until I laid down in the bed with my son at night with all the lights off and I was like, rubbing his back, that I saw what he sees. And it's not this beautiful, entertaining image of his mother. It's like four Glowing red eyes. And it made me wonder, just like the accumulation of surveillance we're doing of them, not just in these nursery devices, but just like, taking constant pictures of them, having their caretakers take pictures of them, uploading them to, like, an app. How is that making them, you know, perhaps conflate surveillance with attention, conflate surveillance with care. And what's going to happen when the person on the other side of the screen isn't this person they love and trust, but it's the government, which is from the minute that I take their picture and I put it in my Google account, that's already a possibility, and that's already happening.
- [31:05]
Jon Favreau
I know. I really struggle with it because you do want to have all those pictures. And my eldest, Charlie's old enough now where he likes seeing the pictures of him and his friends and everything else, right? Because he's, like, looking at the screen, at the pictures, and so you think that there's benefits to it. But then, I don't know. I was in. You know, he still has the nanit in his room. He's four. And I was. I lie in bed with him every night. And, like, just last night we were looking up at it or two nights ago, and he's got a flashlight because he doesn't like the dark. And he's like, every time the flashlight hits the nanit, the red eyes go off, right? Because that's. It's supposed to be like infrared, you know, night vision. And I'm watching it happen, and he knows exactly what's going on. He's like, look. Look what happens when you hit the flashlight. And I was like, this is. I don't know. This is too much. But he doesn't know anything else, you know, and he said that in. In school they have, like, security cameras. And he's like, yeah, sometimes me and my friends, we look at the security cameras and we. We try to blast them out of the sky. It's like, oh, God.
- [32:10]
Amanda Hess
Well, that's good training.
- [32:11]
Jon Favreau
That is good training for him. That is important. That is important.
- [32:15]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. I don't know. I also think, like, we don't often have caretakers come into our house, but we have, like, babysitters who put them to bed sometimes. And, like, having a nanny cam used to be, like, this really specific choice that a person would make. And it was this big cultural thing that we were all talking about. Like, is there a nanny cam, like, hidden in a teddy bear or whatever to watch the nanny? And now there are all of these systems that are set up that beam the information, like straight to your phone. They alert you whenever anyone goes into the room, where, whether you, you've like, planned for this or not, like you can monitor your domestic employee, like, just do it, whatever they're doing. And I think anyone who works, you know, the idea of somebody watching everything you're doing is like, really, it's really horrifying. But also as a parent, like, it's so seductive that you could just look in and see what's happening at any moment.
- [33:17]
Jon Favreau
I gotta hear more about your experiences with the free birthers, which I did not know was a thing until I moved to la. You can imagine it's somewhat popular here. This is a very online community of people who choose not to get. Get any medical attention of any kind during pregnancy and then including childbirth. What interested you so much about this community?
- [33:42]
Amanda Hess
There was a point where when I was in this, like, diagnostic hell during my pregnancy, I was going in to see doctors, like, sometimes every day to get like imaging or tests or whatever, or I was getting a new test result. And then after I got the diagnosis, I was still, you know, planning for this longer term relationship with the medical system because I knew, like, my child would be born, he would go to the NICU where he would be treated in certain ways, and then he would be monitored, like throughout his childhood for various things. And there was really this part of me that was like. Like, I hated the medical system so much at that point, even though it had given me this diagnosis, which was the most valuable thing to me. It was such an awful process and it was so traumatizing that I became really interested in, like, spending some mental time, especially during that diagnostic period where I didn't know what was going on with like, women who are narrating stories about doing the exact opposite thing. They're like, I haven't seen a doctor at all during this pregnancy. And in some cases it was just like, you know, first I was just like interested in what this choice was. And then there were certainly times when, like, just listening to this stuff made me feel super smug about my choices, when the main thing that I felt was like this intense unease at how medical this entire experience was. And so I really just started listening to their stories as a way to, I think, process the choice that I was making, which was on this complete opposite extreme and knowing that, like, neither of them are ideal, but there's also a relationship to them where, like, the intensity of the medical experience causes some women to like, completely reject it.
- [35:52]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, well, I mean, can you talk A little bit about getting to know these various online communities of parents and how that helped you understand where. I think you mentioned where anti vax sentiment comes from.
- [36:05]
Amanda Hess
Mm. Yeah. So I started listening to a podcast called the Free Birth Society, which is. It's. Every person who decides to birth without assistance is not like, a member of the society, but it is, like, the best at marketing itself as, like, a free birth resource. And I realized, like, after listening to their podcast that they offer this, like, whole range of programs for, like, encouraging, you know, autonomous birth, which when I first, like, interacted with them, was sort of, like blandly liberal feminist themed. And then like, over time just flipped to, like, Trumpy. Just pure Trumpy, like RFK Jr stuff. But what I understood, like, starting and then eventually. So I went to a festival called the Matriarch Rising Festival, where these free birthers congregate. And I was like, the weirdest person there because I was, like, from New York City. I had had two C sections at that point. And talking with these women was really illuminating because I understood, like, there were so many aspects, so many, like, things that I had also been absorbing from this, like, hyper rationalist medical side that were existing here too, just in different forms. And one is like, there's like, an incredible stigma against disability. And there's this incredible, I think, like, unspoken desire to have a healthy child, which I think often really means a normal child. Like, I had not realized before I. I gave birth. Like, what a weird phrase. 10 fingers, 10 toes is like, I don't care if it's a boy or a girl, as long as it has 10 figures, 10 toes. And it's like, actually, like, I don't. I don't care about that. Like, I want, you know, my child. Like, I don't care about the toes, but it is just this, like, very overt, like, ableism that's just slipped into, like, normal conversation. And I think, like, what I found, what I came to understand was, like, not only was that stigma there, like, it is I think, everywhere, but also I was encountering women who had a much different upbringing than I did, who were raised in, like, conservative communities and very religious communities where, like, the role of the mother was like a very supreme role. And it was the thing that they had been planning, like, since they were girls, to do and to, like, execute well. And that sort of, you know, I only started thinking about that when I downloaded Flow, you know, I had never, like, thought of myself as, like, just like, someone who. It was really important to, like, be a good mom. Or the best mom, or even a mom. It was not something I really thought about until it was time to think about it. And so this combination of feeling this intense pressure to do everything right as a mother and this intense but really unspoken stigma against disability means that when you have a child with a disability, like, I blamed myself at first. I was like, what is it? What was it about me that caused this? Even if it's like a completely random thing. And so I could understand the steps by which someone was raised in this, like, intensive motherhood society, had a child with a disability that was stigmatized and somewhat ostracized, blamed themselves, wanted to blamed the. You know, was not comfortable with the medical system, wanted a solution, wanted an explanation for what had happened and gets to, like, reassert their authority as a mother by campaigning against the pharmaceutical companies or the medical system. I could see an alternate reality where this happened to me instead. All of these thoughts just, like, existed in my brain and were just, like, swimming around in there until I wrote the book and figured out that they were there. But I could just see this path. And it was depressing because to me, it's just so much more complicated than dismantling, like, disinformation, which is also not going to happen. But it's so much. I think it's so much deeper in American culture than that.
- [40:51]
Jon Favreau
Well, it's such a human instinct to want to find reasons for things that happen that are unexpected or distressing or whatever it may be. And you can blame. It's like we're always looking. You know, I've had people like this in my life and family, too. It's like someone gets an illness, someone's diagnosed with cancer, and it's like, well, what did they do wrong? You know, like, what did they. Did they do this as a kid? Did they smoke too much? And, like, it makes us feel. Again, it's back to this theme of control, right? Like, we have some control over the randomness of what happens to us in life. And so you could either blame yourself, you could blame a big company, you could blame some political reason, you know, and I. I get it. I get it. I get where it comes from. More of my interview with Amanda Hess in just a minute. But first, two quick housekeeping notes. This Friday, June 6th, you can join John Lovett, Tim Miller and Sarah Longwell from the Bulwark for free. Andre. A fundraiser at World Pride at the Lincoln Theater in D.C. they're raising money to help bring makeup artist and actor Andre Hernandez Ramiro back to the US after he was denied due process and deported to an El Salvadorian megaprison like so many others. All proceeds will go to the Immigrant Defenders Law center, the organization fighting to reunite Andri and others like him with their loved ones. Before the live show, Vote Save America will join forces with the Human Rights Campaign for a protest at the US Supreme Court to bring more attention to this very important cause. Get your tickets and RSVP for both events now@qriket.com events also for the next month, when you buy something from the Cricut Store, you'll get a promo code for a free 30 day trial of friends of the Podcast, our subscription community. That means a full month of ad, free pods, exclusive subscriber only shows, and access to our Discord server completely free. So if there's a T shirt you've had your eye on or you need something to wear to the next protest, volunteer event, or angry walk around your neighborhood, now is the perfect time to grab it. Support the mission. Get the merch. Head to qriket.com store now. Offline is brought to you by Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. Delete Me knows your privacy is worth protecting. Sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. Delete Me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. Deleteme isn't just a one time service. Deleteme is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. You really have no idea until you use Delete Me how much of your personal information is on the Internet? Is it a lot? It's a lot and it's and it's stuff that you wouldn't think about and you know, you get your parents address on there. There's just all kinds of on there and it's really nice to have Delete Me not just like they said for the one time thing, but it constantly updates you because there's always new personal information running around online. So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan by texting offline to 64,000. The only way to get 20% off is to text offline to 64000. That's offline to 64000. Message and data rates may apply.
- [44:34]
Amanda Hess
Psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. I had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to. I needed relief. I got Cosentyx. It helped me move better.
- [44:48]
C
Cosentyx Secukenumab is prescribed for people 2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema, like skin reactions may occur. Learn More more at 1-844-cosentix or cosentyx.com.
- [45:29]
Amanda Hess
Ask your rheumatologist about Cosentix.
- [45:40]
Jon Favreau
How do you think that they went from being like, vaguely feminist to Trumpy?
- [45:46]
Amanda Hess
I think there's this spectrum. They, you know, many of them still identify as feminist. Some of them, like, there's one who is pretty prominent who now identifies as like, pro patriarchy. So she's really like, completely changed her branding. I think part of it is like, when free birth is not just something that you believe in, but it's your business. You are following trends of like, the people who you think might be interested in this. So in 2020, I saw like, just this, like, 2020 was like a time when the, the rupture really started to happen. But at first I saw, you know, things that any other brand would put up that was about, like, valuing black lives and talking about how, like, free birth is important for black women who are like, unsafe in the medical system, stuff like that. And it, I think it just, over that, like, really polarizing time, just flipped to a point where, like, they could no longer kind of like, straddle this line. And they had to sort of like, pick a side. And people on the left were calling them out for things that they had said that were they felt were racist or that were transphobic. And they were like, okay, we're done, like, we're done pretending. We're not going to hide anymore. You know, we're like on the right. I don't know how common that is, but I think we've seen brands, like other, like, you know, very prominent brands be really into, like, pride a few years ago and now just be like, more than happy to just, like, follow the administration's lead and, like, dismantling any DEI stuff.
- [47:46]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [47:47]
Amanda Hess
You know, so I think it's like a sales tactic like anything else.
- [47:49]
Jon Favreau
But I also think the shift within the Republican Party under Trump from traditional conservatism as we once knew it to an ideology that's much more anti institutionalist, anti establishment, cynical about everything. Let's just tear it all down. Probably helps push some of these people into that camp, because then the left becomes a defender of institutions, including medical institutions, health institutions, and they probably just don't trust those kind of people anymore.
- [48:25]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. And I mean, sorry to the left, but those, those institutions are hard to defend.
- [48:31]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [48:32]
Amanda Hess
Sometimes, you know, and ideally, like, the left would want to make their own changes to them, but because they're such a. They're under such pressure, like, of course you have to defend them. And it puts. It puts you in like, a really tough position politically.
- [48:50]
Jon Favreau
One of the other big themes in your book, and probably one that will stay with me as a parent, is this idea of child optimization, which you identify correctly, I think, as an especially millennial phenomenon. We talk a lot on this show about how the Internet and social media offer sort of the illusion of human connection. And your basic argument is that, like we said, the Internet offers parents, parent, or would be parents, sort of an illusion of control. And, you know, if we just consume more information, listen to more experts, buy more products, then somehow you write, our kids could be programmed for optimal human life. Why doesn't it work out like that?
- [49:35]
Amanda Hess
I mean, first of all, like, they're children, you know, and so, like, I don't know if everyone who I know who's, like, had a newborn and then had a toddler and then had, like a four year old, like, you get wise to it after a certain period of time, like, you do not have control over this person. And also, in some sense, like, they've been who they are since the moment they were born. And you can, like, see it in their eyes and, like, their newborn photos. But also, I don't know, I think it's this really sad phenomenon where, like, millennials, like, have been told that they need to work so hard to get these diminishing returns. And also, like, just this, the educational system that we grew up in, like, became so intensely, you know, points driven, like, all of the standardized tests that we, you know, we were like the first generation to start to have to take. I think we really have absorbed this neoliberal idea that like, everything can be made a market and everything can be assigned a value. And that's like the best way to like, decide what's good. So even when you are looking at your baby who, like, of course you want to be successful, of course you want them to be good. You want them to be like a good baby, to be like the best child that they can be or whatever. I at least found that I was just like, uncritically in some ways applying this system that when I think about it, I find quite horrifying actually to my child, where if I got a data set from him from sleeping, I used a crib that would tell me the hours and minutes that he slept. And I saw that he slept 20 minutes more than he did the night before. Like, I would be so happy about that number that my literal baby has no idea what that is. He doesn't know why I'm happy, you know, why I'm like congratulating him on like, his night or whatever. It's like so deranged.
- [51:49]
Jon Favreau
We do that too. We're like, we're like, hey, you know what? Two hour nap today wasn't one hour and a half like yesterday. We got a full two hours napping king.
- [51:57]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. And the nana, like, I have a friend who has it who sends me like the updates of the new things they're introducing. It's just like wild stuff. Like the part of the crib that they are sleeping on the most, like, are they like a left sided crib queen tonight or whatever. It's really like, I don't know, it's like a buzzfeed quiz for like your child's crib personality. And of course you're obsessed with your baby and so like, you want to know everything, but just how slickly it's translated into, like, the commodified versions of identity that we're so used to, like, having built for ourselves online was really striking to me.
- [52:38]
Jon Favreau
I'm so glad you wrote about Big Little Feelings, which is a very large, popular Instagram account with two millennial moms who offer and sell parenting advice. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with Big Little Feelings?
- [52:54]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, I hadn't heard about Big Little Feelings until my first son was a toddler and my friend told me about it. And so I googled them and I realized, like, Big Little Feelings sounded really familiar. And it's because it's like this kind of like, Word salad of, like, littles and bigs and, like, big feelings that kids have or whatever. And so it's just, like, very perfectly, I think, millennially marketed. And I became interested in them because, like, once I started reading, I wanted to read parenting advice from quite a long time ago. And I decided to read Dr. Benjamin Spock's book, which was originally published in the 1940s. So I got a version from the 1940s to make sure it wasn't, like, it's been updated 100 times. And what I found when I read it was that there were so many similarities between what they were saying or what a doctor Becky is saying about being, like, the calm, collected leader of your home, of not reprimanding your children or even shooting them cross looks, of not yelling at them, of not hitting them, of course. And so this approach to discipline, it expands on the Internet, and there are all of these sort of intense and complicated distinctions between different programs. But the thing that it's based on, I think, has been circulating intensely in our culture for a really long time. And so I thought it was curious that even though that was the case, a lot of these accounts, big little feelings included, really market themselves as this radical shift from, like, what the boomers did to us, where they're like, we know that you have trauma from your childhood, and it's because of, like, the implication is it's because of the disciplinary program that your parents used. We know so much better now. And, like, you're going to create the child that you never. You could never be because you were never given the opportunity to be. And it's such. I mean, first of all, there's a great deal of trauma in childhood. Like, of course, the idea that it is based on this, like, specific account you follow or a book you read, I think is ridiculous. And so, I don't know. I just. I found it really interesting that at the same time that these accounts were saying, we don't have a village anymore, and that's awful for us. Like, it's so hard. We can be your village. And also, the program of our village ensures that no actual other human, especially anyone older than you, is, like, actually qualified to speak to your child, because they don't know. Like, all of the scripts that were gonna, like, unfold for you in this program is, like, I find it very odd, but at the same time, just, like, having watched enough of their videos, like, their voices speak through me all the time. I can hear their words coming out. And just, like, sometimes. And sometimes it works. And you know, sometimes it doesn't work, but when it works, you're like, hmm, wait a minute.
- [56:08]
Jon Favreau
No, I, I, I think I started following it. Emily started following it when Charlie was a toddler, too. And inevitably, I would, every time I would scroll past it and see, like, a tip from Big Little Feelings, it would be, like, something that I was not doing or I was doing and I shouldn't be doing. Right. It's like, and then it's all the, like, you know, stop Clap hands emoji telling Clap Hands emoji your child to be careful. Clap hands emoji. You know, I'm like, we're not.
- [56:38]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. Stop telling them to say thank you. Stop telling them to say I'm sorry.
- [56:42]
Jon Favreau
It's like, oh, I guess I'm okay. I'm just supposed to chill out here and do what? Yeah, it's hard. It's a weird. I the. You write about how parenting brands like Big Little Feelings reacted to the murder of George Floyd, and this line destroyed me. Big Little Feelings appeared to be sincerely suggesting that racist police violence would not exist had Derek Chauvin's mother bought Winning the toddler stage for $99.
- [57:07]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, I mean, it was one of the. And they were not alone, but, like, they were one of the brands that, like, had a very sincere post about Black Lives Matter that then, like, seamlessly transitioned into, like, a, you know, hagiography of, like, their own program and why it was so important to speak to children in this very specific way. And I think a lot of them use this language of this being a political program, that it is, you know, a movement that they're building of followers who are all, you know, in their individual homes, maybe using the same words with their kids. Although I think it's important to note that following Big Little Feelings does not mean that people are, like, following it on Instagram, doesn't mean they're following it with their kids. It doesn't mean that they're not yelling at them. It doesn't mean that they're not hitting them. You know, it's like, it's a piece of media that someone is following. It doesn't mean that that is, like, the mold of parent that they have become. Yeah. And I found this, like, political language to be really depressing because I think there's so much about parenting that is political and that we do need a political movement that supports parents and, but most like, more than parents, kids, and that it should be this collective responsibility for us to make sure that, like, the kids in our community are like, let's start with being housed, fed, that they have hot meals, that they are clothed appropriately for the season. You know, before we get to this program where it's like, and everyone has the same disciplinary program that their parents are like parroting to them. You know, I think it's this, it's something that we see a lot, which is this invocation of a political program that is actually really more about isolating children in the family and keeping like, you know, keeping your own eyes focused on your kid as opposed to like thinking about ways that you can help your kid that's more community minded really.
- [59:23]
Jon Favreau
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- [60:25]
Amanda Hess
Symptoms can be unpredictable. I had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to. I needed relief. I got Cosentyx. It helped me move better.
- [60:38]
C
Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for people 2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. Don't use a if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease Symptoms develop or worsen serious allergic reactions and severe eczema, like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com.
- [61:19]
Amanda Hess
Ask your rheumatologist about Cosentyx.
- [61:30]
Jon Favreau
Well, I love that you went back and read Spock's book from 1946 and found that there's similar advice in that book. Because the way I look at it is, you know, the Dr. Becky's the big Little Feelings. I've read. Listen to the parenting podcast, read the books. There's like, pearls of wisdom in there that you think, okay, this is an interesting way to parent. Maybe I wasn't parented quite that way, and maybe this, you know, treating kids more like they're whole people and adults is better in certain times. But it is. And you get to this point, it is sort of skipping over the larger issue that we all face, which is, you know, the saying about it takes a village. It doesn't seem like the village can ever be the Internet and the online communities for parenting that we discover on the Internet. And that raising kids with the help of family and neighbors and people who you're close to in life like, that is. That's probably a better way to raise kids and certainly an easier way to raise kids. And people have done that for. Used to do that for hundreds of years.
- [62:41]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. And I think the thing that's difficult is, like, you need to include people who are not parents in that, like, political movement. People who will never be parents. I mean, one of the things I'm most ashamed of having become a parent is that, like, I never thought about how I could help families before I became one. I never realized how hard it was. You know, I had, like, a general sense that, like, children had rights that were. That we were like. And they were being underserved, but, like, no sense in which, like, I might have an obligation as a young person who had, like, time, resources, whatever, to, like, help children in my community. I was like, children, you know, are people who parents hang out with. And that's not me. Like, I'm not really. I'm not allowed on the playground, you know, because that's odd.
- [63:40]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [63:41]
Amanda Hess
But there really aren't a lot of spaces where that becomes possible.
- [63:44]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. How do you mediate your kids relationship to screens? Like, how do you think about that now? Because that's the other big.
- [63:53]
Amanda Hess
Yeah, I mean, this is where my. I'm not giving parenting advice comes in. Like, I. I don't do it that well. My kids, like, Like, I. I tend to believe, like, big screen better, like, biggest screen, the best or whatever. Like, my kids watch a television in our house, and there are things that I don't like about the television. Like, I'll put on Disney, and they have all of these options. And even though I personally like those options more than the vast and confusing options that are on, like, YouTube, kids, just the fact that they have so many options and they are, like, constantly demanding that I, like, change the thing, and they're demanding a specific thing to watch. Like, it's just so different from when I was watching TV when I was a kid, where, like, yes, I loved watching tv, but, like, I had to watch what was on there, and if I didn't like it, like, I had to find something else to do. But it really is, like, I use the TV a lot, and I do it because, like, it's the only way that I can, like, do things that I need to do for my kids. And I think one of the reasons that something like big little feelings is popular is because it's, like, a form of expertise and help for your kids that you can seem to acquire, maybe when you're at work, looking at your phone or whatever, or where you're laying in bed at night. The times when I am actively taking care of my kids in the mornings and the evenings are incredibly fraught and chaotic. And my kids are 2 and 4, and they love to wrestle and, like, being able to turn my back and, like, cook something for them and make sure that they're not. They don't get, like, scalded in some way. Like, the TV is great, so I love it, but, you know, I don't know. I feel like I haven't figured it out, and it's only gonna get worse. You know, my kids don't have their own devices yet, so I haven't had to navigate that at all.
- [66:06]
Jon Favreau
I'm dreading that day. And it's also a very millennial thing. And you point this out that treating parenting is like a second career that you can, like, study up on. I do the same thing, right? Like, you're with the kids, and then afterwards, when you're in bed at night and you don't have that much time, you're like, okay, maybe I can listen to a parenting podcast or read a book or figure out plans to make them more interested the next day so they won't be so bored. And it's like, it's just hard. That's not. At some point, you. You start to learn to let Go a little bit and to sort of let go of the perfectionism. And it's like, all right, if we're all just going to hang out and play and do nothing and just hang out in the house, that's fine. There's no activity today. It's going to be okay.
- [66:49]
Amanda Hess
Yeah. I mean, online, like, parenting influencers are not really my thing. I think I was just like. So by the time I got to them, I was already writing my book. And so I was like, I'm like, I can completely divorce myself from this emotionally, but I do buy books and like, I've definitely stress bought books that are like, you know, healing your yelling child or whatever that, like, I've never read. Like, I never even opened, but just like the Internet click of like, buying it or whatever like, made me feel.
- [67:22]
Jon Favreau
Like I did something. I'm a good friend.
- [67:24]
Amanda Hess
I was at least making progress. Even if my kid was gonna wake up at 5:30 in the morning and yell and I'd be like, it's. It's very early and your neighbors are sleeping, you know, and it would happen the next day or whatever. But I didn't have time to read the book. And that's fine.
- [67:38]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [67:38]
Amanda Hess
It's just, they're kids and it's hard. It's hard. I don't know.
- [67:42]
Jon Favreau
Last question. What has surprised you most about being a parent that you really enjoy?
- [67:53]
Amanda Hess
I. So after all, after all that, having nothing to do with the things that I studied or like, the way I tried to prepare myself during pregnancy, like, I feel competent at it, even though I can't give you any advice about what to do and like, I don't know how to tell any other person how to parent their kids. Like, I am good at it. I think I'm good at being a parent to my kids in a way that has surprised me. Like, I never saw myself as maternal. I had, like, very little even, like, babysitting experience. My closest friends had not had kids yet. And I just like, I love building a relationship with my kids. And I'm not good at maybe molding them in a particular way, but I'm good at, like, being there for them and being their mom.
- [68:44]
Jon Favreau
That's the most important thing.
- [68:46]
Amanda Hess
So, yeah, it's so awesome.
- [68:48]
Jon Favreau
Amanda, thank you so much for joining Offline again and also just congrats again on writing a fantastic book. I hope everyone reads it. Whether. Whether you're a parent thinking about being a parent or just wondering what it's like to be a parent, I think it is a fantastic read. So thank you.
- [69:05]
Amanda Hess
Thank you so much.
- [69:08]
Jon Favreau
As always. If you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us@offlinericket.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline in Pod, Save America exclusive content and more. Join our friends at the pod subscription community@cricket.com friends and if you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. The show is produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Illich Frank. Jordan Kantor is our sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglin. Delon Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrian Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Switch to Verizon Business and get more from your Internet without paying more for your Internet. Get LTE Business Internet starting at $39 a month when paired with select business mobile plans. That's unlimited data and with it unlimited possibilities. Start saving today with Verizon Business Ranked number one in Small Business Internet Customer Satisfaction by J.D. power. Starting price for 25 Mbps LTE Internet Plan with Smartphone Plan Savings plus taxes, fees and economic adjustment Charge terms apply for J.D. power 2024 award information. Visit JD Power.com Awards.
- [71:02]
Amanda Hess
Psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. I had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to. I needed relief. I got Cosentyx. It helped me move better.
- [71:15]
C
Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed for people 2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased of risk infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentics or cosentix.com.
- [71:57]
Jon Favreau
Ask.
- [71:57]
Amanda Hess
Your rheumatologist about cosentics.