Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:19)

Hi. Nice to see you.

Jon Favreau (3:20)

It's nice to see you, too. For people who don't know we know each other, we do know each other. Our sons, our besties have become besties in school.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:30)

So cute.

Jon Favreau (3:30)

They also play T ball together.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:32)

That is cute.

Jon Favreau (3:33)

Coached by our spouses.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:35)

Our spouses. We were just talking about. We are the. We are the little league wags.

Jon Favreau (3:39)

You and I. Yeah, we just go to the games as fans and support. I kind of help Emily and Alex.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:43)

I help a little bit.

Jon Favreau (3:44)

You do help. Yeah, I just, I. Emily and Alex.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:47)

I'm the dugout girl.

Jon Favreau (3:50)

Congrats on the book.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:51)

Thank you.

Jon Favreau (3:51)

You've written a wonderful book.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (3:53)

Thank you.

Jon Favreau (3:54)

And so we've known each other for a little while. I'll be honest, the first time I heard that you're known as the optimism doctor, my reaction was, what kind of la bullshit is this?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (4:03)

Yep. I hope there were some eye rolls.

Jon Favreau (4:04)

Some eye rolls. And now, of course, I very much understand it. Your doctorate is in clinical health psychology. Your was literally on optimism and visualization. You had a postdoctoral fellowship at UCLA and Cedars. But maybe you could start talking about, like, how you got into this line of work.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (4:21)

Not linearly. Let me tell you that my first, I didn't even major an undergrad in psychology. And to be honest, I felt like psychology always interested me, but it felt like something that was off the table for me. I'm a really sensitive human being, and I was even more so as a teenager. I mean, I talk about it in the book, but when the Titanic came out, the movie, I did not go to school for two weeks. So psychology was not something my family nor myself was pushing me into. But I've always just been very drawn to humans and Storytelling and emotions and just being a listener. And I just, I love humans and human storytelling. And so I think I was always curious about that. And I at the same time had other ideas and passions. I started my first, like, very first job. I worked while I was in college at a punk music label, which was the best time of my life.

Jon Favreau (5:24)

That sounds fun.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (5:25)

And then I went into investment banking for a quick year, a very quick year.

Jon Favreau (5:31)

And that was all.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (5:31)

And that was all. And then I worked in the public health sector and it was kind of. It sort of made sense to me. I was doing a lot of M and A and the deal making part was like, what sort of lit me up. Which again, is a very psychological, like, people oriented part of the work. I always had really amazing mentorship and people that were willing to like literally set me aside and say, I saw you light up during this. Have you ever thought of this? My boss at the time was like, they brought in an organizational psychologist and he was like, I saw you light up in a way I've never seen you light up. Have you thought about, he thought, organizational psychology? I was like, well, that something about that piqued my interest. And I went back to UCLA where I did my undergrad. And I knocked on every single door at UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and just begged for someone to let me work for free to see what this was all about. And so I took a year off after and I just, I ended up being able to volunteer. Then I went back to school and got my prerequisites because I didn't even have prerequisites. And then I applied to grad school. I remember there was like a big aha moment for me. I always loved the science part and like the data and I love the brain. It just became really into the brain. And I know that sounds creepy.

Jon Favreau (6:50)

No, it's, you know, fascinating. A lot of it is unknown.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (6:54)

Yes. I think I just followed my curiosity and I saw one bit of research that just changed and unlocked everything for me. And what it said was, is that the brain is an anticipatory organ. So the brain is constantly sort of working and acting in future tense. It's like it could be a few moments from now or six months from now, and it could be like I'm looking at this cup of water and my brain tells me it is a cup of water faster than the visual cortex actually registers it as a cup of water. Or when you think about eating something, whatever it is, like I'm imagining what I might have for Lunch right now. My brain already releases the right amount of insulin to break down that food before we even eat it. And so the brain is just constantly in this future oriented work mode. And I started to think at the same time, you know, this was many years ago now, but I most of the interventions that we were taught to work with clients or patients was many times pass driven. And that's fine, that makes sense to understand who you are and why you are the way you are. And then we were just starting to really talk a lot about the present. So cognitive behavioral techniques, which I love, but I didn't see like much, I didn't see much in the realm of helping people understand what are they expecting, what are they projecting into their future. And what I came to know is that when you think about something, whatever event it is, whether again it is a few moments from now, it's later in the day, it's six months from now, whatever you are expecting to happen and predicting to happen impacts how you feel and then how you feel impacts your behavior. So for me there was this.

Jon Favreau (8:33)

I feel like that's where anxiety comes from, right?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (8:35)

Exactly.

Jon Favreau (8:35)

Like anticipatory anxiety is the whole.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (8:37)

Exactly. And so I felt like, whoa, wait a second here. I'm really passionate about this idea of understanding what people are predicting, even about like small mundane things in their lives, but then taking it a step further and saying, can we actually change that? And so that became my passion, my niche in that time. I felt like the things I was curious about in studying were a little too woo woo for like the science community that I was in and way too sciency for the self sort of growth community at that time. And so somewhere along the way, I think like a little before COVID people really sort of caught up with this idea of blending through sort of the two and this idea of like optimism and hope theory and just how important that was. The optimism doctor part really came organically. And I remember I was really interested in sort of, I would call my therapy work, self worth work. Instead of therapy, I would sit in front of a client and be like, okay, the first time I saw them, we're gonna be doing things a little bit differently. Here's what we're gonna do. X, Y and Z. We're gonna look at your optimism. I'm gonna ask you some questions. Um, we're gonna focus on the things you want and your skills and your strengths and what you're predicting and all this stuff. And at the end of like 20 minutes of taking up 20 minutes of time of this client session, he was like, so you're kind of just like my optimism doctor. And I was like, huh, I guess that's it. I guess that's it. And so that is where the optimism doctor piece came from.

Jon Favreau (10:11)

What does the actual research say about optimism and how it works in the brain? Like, what have you learned? Just to, to. I know this is what the whole book is about, but just as a summary of the research and the science behind it, like, how does it work and what has sort of surprised you about it?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (10:28)

We have this like, idea of what optimism is. And to be honest, it's like all wrong. And I think most people think that optimism is about being positive. It's about the silver linings. It's about looking at the world through rose colored glasses and sort of in my mind, like I visually see someone like skipping through like a field of poppies, like singing in bliss while, like the world's on fire.

Jon Favreau (10:52)

Yeah. It's like blind optimism.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (10:54)

Yes. And what I, and doing this work, I feel like I have heard every single sort of stereotype of what people think an optimist is under the sun. Often very smart people are like, I'm not an optimist, I'm a realist. Yeah. And they sort of separated, as in, like, you can't be a realist while being an optimist. And I thought that was so interesting because I, I also felt that way. And to be honest, I'm known as the optimism doctor and I am not the most optimistic person. Even in my microcosm of family, I'm probably the least optimistic naturally person.

Jon Favreau (11:29)

Interesting.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (11:30)

And the good news is what I've learned about it is what's a surprise is optimism's not a personality trait. And I think a lot of people think it is. It is a learned psychological skill that can be trained. And I, I'm training myself to be more. And I think the other thing is an optimist, actually a real optimist, as I call it, is so grounded in reality. And like the definition that we use, you know, from this perspective is someone that is deeply mindful and aware of the roadblocks and the setbacks and the less than ideal situations. But the caveat is they see them as temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome even if they don't know how or when.

Jon Favreau (12:15)

Like, I've always thought about, in the context of politics for sure, the difference between optimism and hope.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (12:23)

Yes.

Jon Favreau (12:24)

And I've always thought about it as like optimism is, or if I'm optimistic About the future, it's people being like, I think it's going to get better, but, like, we'll see. It's, like, predictive.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (12:34)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (12:35)

And hope, to me at least, is more grounded in agency. And it's this. Like, I can see the challenges, but I have the sort of ability to change the future and change circumstances to a better future. But it sounds like that is real optimism. What I think about hope is sort of the real optimism.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (12:53)

I see optimism from my world and perspective as much more related to resiliency and curiosity than related to positivity. So it's really much more about understanding and being very grounded in your authentic emotion, whatever that is. And a lot of times that is not feeling great. That might be rage or grief or, you know, worry or anxiety, whatever those are. But at the very same time of sitting in it, it's allowing yourself to be curious about how this might change. And you're not even committing to. I think it's gonna be better yet. You may not even get there yet. But just being able to know, number one, that it will change. Because a lot of this is what we call explanatory style and understanding that everything is temporary. And that's a huge hallmark of being able to increase your real optimism factor. You don't have to be someone that knows with certainty that it will be better. You just have to have curiosity that I wonder how this will change. And even from that, which I kind of call being in, it's almost like neutral plus. It's like when you go and order a steak and you're like, I'll have medium rare plus, which people probably hate you for, but in la, it's okay. The same kind of thing, like, we don't have to be. Optimism doesn't always feel good. And I think that's another surprising factor, because we cultivate our optimism through persevering, through struggle. And so I think people think that we really, you know, can only be optimistic when we are blissful and feel good.

Jon Favreau (14:26)

Well, you. You open the book with a very personal story about this. And, you know, I. This was before we really knew you guys, but I knew Dio had been really secure. Your middle son, who's Charlie's friend.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (14:40)

Yes.

Jon Favreau (14:41)

And just learning the details from you writing about that period, the diagnosis, the uncertainty, like having to physically hold him down for his medication. What was. And you mentioned that sort of. It was interesting for you as the optimism doctor to realize that the tools you teach other people to use weren't necessarily the ones you were reaching for at first.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (15:04)

Right.

Jon Favreau (15:04)

So can you talk about that experience, sort of what that taught you about optimism?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (15:07)

Yeah. Well, first of all, at the time, it felt like cruel irony. I was literally writing the manuscript for this. And like many, many horrible things that happen, they surprise you and they come out of nowhere. And unfortunately, we were told that this medical diagnosis that literally came out of nowhere. I mean, one moment he was, you know, wrestling with his older brother and asking for snacks and wanting to, you know, play with trucks and watch Lightning McQueen over and over and over to having this earth shattering, you know, diagnosis that now is setting us off on a path that felt like, you know, a huge mountain that was a long mountain. A year and a half of treatment, it just. It came out of nowhere. And it was chalked to, as they said, bad luck. It was like two in a million chance for a kid to get this. And this rare child, you know, medical diagnosis is definitely not getting. Getting the research or funding that it's gonna be needing. And so I think aside from just not knowing why it happened, which is a very scary place to be in as a parent, but also not understanding, even with the treatment, like, what it was gonna mean for us and what the future holds. And so I remember calling my agent, and I was just like, I don't think I can write this. How can I write this? I literally am the most hopeless and helpless I've ever felt in my life. I'm full of darkness. I feel paralyzed. I'm not writing this book on optimism. And I kind of retreated to a lot of old habits that I went to when I was grasping for desperation, just looking in front of the mirror and being like, my son is healthy. Everything's okay.

Jon Favreau (17:02)

And that doesn't necessarily work.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (17:04)

No. And I felt almost like a responsibility that if it didn't work, I wasn't doing it good enough. And I asked the universe, you know, I know it sounds so silly, but, you know, I imagined him being, like, surrounded by white roses and all these things that I had, like, read and just like, this is a hologram and you make your own reality. And I just, like, you know, looked up to the sky and said, universe, like, all I really want is for my son to be healthy, like, deliver it. And unfortunately, you know, this was the time we were waiting the three weeks for pathology, and none of that worked for me. And I remember just sitting underneath my office desk when we were sort of told what the uphill battle we were now up against our new reality. You know, we had just had the surgery to Remove this mass. And now we know what it is. And we have a year and a half ahead of us of treatment. Weekly and daily medication, but also weekly. We had to go get another surgery to get a port implanted in his ch. I mean, he's two and a half. And I was just really struggling because I was ruminating over, which I think I'm sure a lot of people can relate. Why is this happening to us? Why us? Like, we're good people.

Jon Favreau (18:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (18:14)

And of all the people, my two and a half year old son, who's just this, like, innocent.

Jon Favreau (18:19)

He's so sweet.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (18:20)

Sweet every. I mean, any kid at two and a half, you can't. And it just. I was so stuck in that, and I was so angry. And I had a major shift at some point, like a few months in. I was very paralyzed by this. I was not doing writing at the time. I was just trying to survive. And, you know, you have to pick yourself up and you have to administer the medication. You have to get him to treatment every Tuesday, because who else? Like, I'm his mom.

Jon Favreau (18:46)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (18:47)

And so we were living this weird reality. And I remember having this shift because I opened back up the manuscript and I was like, okay, I. I'm just going to read a little bit of what I've been writing. And from cruel irony, I feel like maybe it was divine intervention or something. I don't even know. You know, I'm not necessarily a very religious person, but having to literally write out the tools and be on deadlines for it. And my brain cannot unsee what I am typing and what I'm remembering sharing with a past patient or a client or the research that I'm including. Like, my. I had to. Literally, I was typing it. So I was processing it and I was using it. And I remember, like, very distinctly one day writing something for the book and thinking, oh, my gosh, like, I had this major shift from rumination to agency. And the shift instead of, why is this happening to us? Because your brain can't go anywhere from there.

Jon Favreau (19:50)

Right.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (19:51)

Like, the prefrontal cortex is not on. You know, it is. You cannot go anywhere from there. And I remember just softening that and thinking, why anyone? Why not us? And that didn't make me feel better, per se. It still really sucked, but it took away some of the anger and it took away some of the sort of threat response. And immediately after that, I was able to just say, what's my next step? And the next step was maybe packing the hospital bag, you know, preparing for the Next treatment or, you know, dosing out the medication or calling insurance companies or whatever it was. But it sent me more into the mode of agency and, like, what is my next step? Yeah, and that was a really big shift for me. It didn't make any of it easier. It was all awful. And I wish I could have learned a lot of what I learned in a different way, but that is the way I learned it. And I remember just thinking now at that point, my son, you know, at the end of writing this book, like, I literally wrote the book throughout the entire treatment. And at the end of it, he was. We were approaching the last few treatments, and I said to myself, wow, this should be really a happy time for me. But it actually was the most anxious time because, again, it was gonna be a time where I was not doing anything. At least, like every Tuesday, which I hated. We were doing something right. We were going. We were taking an action. Taking an action. I had some sense of control. We were doing what we were supposed to do. And I remember thinking like, wow, this is. I don't want to project this onto my son now he's four, and hopefully he's got, you know, a life ahead of him. And every day, if I'm like, is this it? Is that it? Is that? I don't want to project that onto him. It's already hard enough to be a kid growing up in the world.

Jon Favreau (21:40)

Well, interestingly, I mean, we started talking about through the brain and how the brain thinks about the future all the time. Right. We're always very future oriented. And I do think, at least for me, when something bad happens, like that the first instinct or the way that my brain has worked for a long time and I'm sort of fixing it is you're like, you just think about all the bad things that could happen.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (22:04)

And like, well, do you know why that happens? It's like the. And this is so important for right now because I think collectively, I don't know if you saw that Gallup survey in February.

Jon Favreau (22:13)

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (22:13)

The fact that Americans are literally at an all time low in their future outlook.

Jon Favreau (22:20)

Yes.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (22:20)

In more than 20 years, this is the lowest it's been. And I think a lot of people stop and just say, like, well, that makes sense. Like, yes, that makes sense. We can all understand why. There's so many reasons why, but what are we gonna do about it? Because you can't make a forward movement from that place of collective negative outlook. And I think right now, like, so many people are living in uncertainty. There's Heaviness and uncertainty. We cannot make sense of most of the things, personally and globally that are occurring. And the brain, when the brain is full of uncertainty, it is in threat mode. The amygdala is firing up, it is in threat response mode. And when you are in that mode, your brain does something out of protection. It's not because there's anything wrong with you, out of protection. It starts filling in the gaps, and it fills in the gaps with the worst case scenarios.

Jon Favreau (23:11)

Yeah. It's funny. I've always been an anxious person. And I think the moment where my personal anxiety about life and what's gonna happen and medical stuff or this other thing sort of intersected with what I do professionally was during the pandemic.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (23:26)

Yes.

Jon Favreau (23:27)

And I remember, like, a lot of times sitting there at night being like, is this ever gonna be normal again? Am I gonna. We gonna. Are we gonna see our friends again and our family? Are we gonna get sick when the kids are, you know, when Charlie's born and we have to do this. And now we have a. Like. And it was just like constantly and then reading the news and like, going to all. And then you're looking through the news because you're looking for the piece of information in the news that's going to make you feel like, oh, it's fine now.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (23:56)

Right. Or I can do something. Or I can do something and make sense of this.

Jon Favreau (23:59)

Right.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (23:59)

And I think the crazy thing about that is they, like, media has really figured out, like, neuroscience.

Jon Favreau (24:05)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (24:05)

It really, like, honestly has figured it out perfectly. Like, great job. But not really, because our brains, like, one of the truths about the brain that I talk about in the book is our brains, like, to collect evidence to make a thought that we already feel is true. More true. That is part of the efficiency.

Jon Favreau (24:23)

Confirmation bias.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (24:24)

Confirmation bias. And I myself have really, like, I. This is kind of a silly story, but I only downloaded TikTok, like, very much late in the game. Like, it was only a few years ago.

Jon Favreau (24:36)

No, I'm the same way.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (24:37)

And I can do, like, one thing. Like, I'm on Instagram and even that, like, who knows what I'm. What I'm doing. But we were in Italy, Alex and I. We were like, on one of our first, like, vacations without the kids. And I remember it was the time that. That Bayesian sank.

Jon Favreau (24:52)

Oh, yes, I forgot about that.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (24:54)

Yeah. And of course, I turned on TikTok just then and I started, like, watching it. Cause it was sort of in the region that we were in, and I got, like, really I mean, it fed me all kinds of things, which obviously I was, like, interested in. And then all of a sudden it was like, this girl loves conspiracy theories. And it was like the. It was like all this stuff. And I looked at Alex and I was like, after, like hours, like, I was just, like, consuming this stuff. And then I looked. I'm like, what are you watching on TikTok? And his were like, this guy walking down the street that would like, stop people and play like 10 seconds of a song, and then they would have to guess what the song was. And I'm like, that is so fun. Why can't. So I literally had to actively retrain the algorithm, which, by the way, is so fitting because that is what we have to do with our brains, right?

Jon Favreau (25:45)

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Dr. Deepika Chopra (28:55)

No, we do not.

Jon Favreau (28:56)

And we are, I think, very depend and also easily persuadable by the social context that we exist in. And I feel like for the last 10, 20 years now, 10 years for sure, 5 years for sure, we are just constantly bombarded with negative bad information. Everything that's bad that's going on in the world, which things have been bad in the world and bad things have happened in the world since the beginning of time.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (29:22)

Right. But we were not always exposed to it. And this sucks every second of the day. Every second of the day.

Jon Favreau (29:27)

And I do wonder like how that sort of the obstacles that puts in the way of someone who's trying to become more optimistic.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (29:37)

Big, big obstacles. I mean, like you said it yourself, you hit the nail on the head. Our brains were not like made to experience this much exposure and stimulation to first of all, just like the sheer amount of whatever it is, good or bad, like that much information and stimulation and exposure. But it's completely like you said, it's the bad news cycle. And we are living in a 24, 7 news cycle. And we know things and we're carrying things and holding things as deeply, you know, feeling humans like people that we have, people that deeply care about their own lives, but also the lives of others that are just walking around this world. And I think you are one of those people, obviously. And what I think is so scary and not what I want. And a big reason why I think this, I wrote this book and this book is so timely is because what we talked about before, like what happens to the human when we're exposed to that and we don't have the tools to equip ourselves, is we go numb. Or again, we might be cynical about something. We might be someone that understands that whatever it is we're seeing or reading is not something we like and not something good. And we might have thoughts about it, but we're stuck in this idea of cynicism which actually comes from overwhelm, which I said before. And there's not a lot of agency that you can move forward and take action with that.

Jon Favreau (31:05)

And I think, or like you said earlier, or we turn away, or we turn away.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (31:09)

So we look away, we go numb, we look away, we say, you know what? I know the news is bad and it's not making me feel good. And a lot of colleagues like of mine are just like, turn off the news. And I think that's also scary. We need to boundary, but we cannot go through the world with eyes closed. Like we still have to know what is going on in order to make change. So it's not about being ignorance is bliss and deciding to put blinders on and know nothing because all of it is too much and too overwhelming. But at the same time, it's not about give it. We cannot handle all of it like we're handling it now. We need to come up with boundaries and tools to equip ourselves on how. And part of that is regulation. Tools. I know this like sounds, it's such a buzzword now to talk about self regulation and nervous system regulation. But the brain doesn't prioritize growth, it prioritizes safety. And we are all walking around this World for the most of us not feeling safe.

Jon Favreau (32:05)

Yeah. What are some of those regulation tools?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (32:07)

I mean, everyone has their own unique tools, but for me, breathing tools really help. And one in particular, the 4, 7, 8 breath, which has a lot of science behind it, and it helps to regulate the parasympathetic nervous system. And again, this doesn't change the circumstance or what you're worried about. There's also this part of the book that's called the Way to the World syndrome, which a lot of us have right now. But what it does is it gives your body and your brain a sort of reset from the rumination and the negative worry loop that we are now constantly in. You know, ancestrally, I think are ancestors might have gone through fight, flight, freeze mode, like, once a week when they were, like, hunting. There's, like, research to show we're literally in it all day long. But, yeah, breathing techniques are really big for me. I know it sounds. This is just me, but music is a big tool for me, always has been, and just, like, moving to it. So, like, I do something in the morning called Wake up and Dance. It's the first thing I do to, like, regulate myself.

Jon Favreau (33:08)

That's cool. I mean, that just made me think that, like, I do think that having kids has helped this, like, and having them now at this age, you know, Teddy's 2 and Charlie's 5 and spending time with them. Like, I think when I tell people I was spending time with my kids because they're the most common question I get. And the most common question, like, we get from listeners, too, is like, how do you. How do you stay hopeful? Like, we actually joke about it now because when we ask for listener questions, inevitably 10 of the questions are like, what gives you hope? And then there's people who are just like, I've been following politics for, like, 10, 15 years, and I can't do it anymore. And I'm like, how do you do it? I can't do it. What should I do? And when I say, like, oh, I hang out with my kids, I think people take it as, oh, well, you avoid politics now, or you turn away and you hang with. But like, no, it's the hands. It's the actual. It's the playing.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (34:01)

Right.

Jon Favreau (34:01)

You know, and it's the dancing around with them, or it's like chasing them around. It's joking about things with them. And it's not just taking your mind off. Because my mind is not taken off of it. No, I'm not reading the news, but my mind's still thinking about it, but it's like, oh, the movement, the laughter. Like the oxytocin you get from this, like, hugging your children. That kind of stuff really does make a difference.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (34:21)

It does. And it's actually giving you the tools to equip yourself to be able to keep staying engaged. That's the part where it's like, this is an and situation. And I don't have to remind my clients or patients. I don't have to remind people to worry or. Right, right. Because we all do. It's part of our human existence. I do actually have a practice where I have people contain their worry. They literally schedule worry into their day, really into their schedule into their calendar, because. And it's like, yes. People are always like, what you tell people to wear. I'm like, I don't have to tell you to worry. You're gonna worry. And anyone that promises you a life without worry is selling you snake oil.

Jon Favreau (34:57)

Right.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (34:58)

We're gonna worry. It's part of our existence. But, like, containing it is really, really such an important practice to develop. Because just floating worry all day long completely derails your everyday life. And it will. It's what's happening to all of us. It's distracting. We can't make decisions. It paralyzes us from any forward movement. Because one worry comes in while we're working on something that we have to get done or show up as, you know, a colleague or a mother or a friend or whatever, all the roles we play. Another worry comes in. In the middle of it, we forgot what we were doing. And now we have all these open files in our brain.

Jon Favreau (35:39)

A lot of open tabs, a lot

Dr. Deepika Chopra (35:40)

of open tabs, a lot of open tabs. And a lot of this is coming up with tools to stay engaged rather than look away. And I think that's the part that's really important right now. Because change is only made when someone actually understands and can imagine that something can change and something better is out there. And I think a lot of people, they can understand being angry about something or just being exhausted and overwhelmed because it just keeps coming and coming. And the idea of allowing yourself to imagine a possibility that's different seems indulgent and silly.

Jon Favreau (36:16)

Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (36:17)

Some people think it's survival.

Jon Favreau (36:19)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (36:20)

You have to imagine your brain does not put forth energy or attention to come up with solutions, whether that's something personal or more global for you. If it doesn't think that it's a possibility. So we have to train ourselves to live in possibility more too One example

Jon Favreau (36:36)

of this just in the political realm that we deal with a lot is people saying, well, what if we don't have a mid? What if he tries to steal the election? You know, what if he tries to steal the next election? What if he tries to cancel the midterms? What if there's ICE agents by the polls, all that kind of stuff. And I've really thought this through kind of from the perspective of what you've written about, which is like, okay, let's just take it one step at a time here. We don't know. It's not like, don't worry, he won't seal the elections or there'll definitely be elections. I can't tell you that. I don't know. But how would you act differently right now if you knew that there would be elections or there wouldn't be elections, right? Like, what would you do differently? And the question is, what can we do to make sure that we. What steps can we take to make sure that we do have elections, that we can protect them as best as possible? And then once we do those steps, what else are we gonna do, right? Like we just have to move forward, do all the other work as if we're going to have an election, right? We gotta go convince people, persuade people, get people out to vote, all that kind of stuff. Because if worrying about the fact that we may not have an election or that he might try to do something prevents us from doing the work we need to win that election. And that's not. That's doubly. That's doubly bad.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (37:46)

It's asking yourself when you are ruminating over something that is a worry. It's asking yourself not to put away that thought as a possibility because it might be a possibility. You might be right, it might be possibility. But what other possibilities exist as well? Like it is up to us to ask ourself that question. Like this may be the case and it's not the whole story. We don't know how it unfolds. What other versions of the story could be to allow ourselves to have that possibility. And at the same time, you know, in visual imagery and science based visualization, I think a lot of people understand it to. People think it's like just about manifestation and sort of visualizing what you want. But actually what the science shows and what I write about in the book too is we also must visualize the setbacks. We must visualize what we might do when the things don't turn out our way. Like you visualize like a circumstance in all its possibilities. And that doesn't mean that you're like putting bad juju out there. It's being prepared.

Jon Favreau (38:41)

Right?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (38:41)

And it's understanding back to that root of, you know, optimism is not about denying the dark. It's about giving us the tools to see in it when it is dark. Like optimism is not about knowing with certainty. It's about what you do know is that whatever might come, you'll meet it. And that's based on your own personal historical resiliency. That's where the optimism is cultivated from. You've been through hard things before.

Jon Favreau (39:12)

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Dr. Deepika Chopra (40:40)

Yes.

Jon Favreau (40:41)

Can you talk about how the questions are connected to optimism and sort of what you've learned from the people who've taken the quiz.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (40:48)

So the quiz actually is adapted or inspired by a sort of more research based scientific test that Martin Seligman came up with, who's like the founder of positive psychology. And what always surprised me in that is people that take the quiz that think they're optimistic oftentimes come back less optimistic. And people that think that they're more pessimistic go in and take the quiz and go, whoa, I'm so much more optimistic than I thought. And I think that's because most people have been defining optimism and their understanding of it in the wrong way. And I think the part that's interesting for me, and I don't want to spoil it too much for anyone that's going to take the quiz, it is in the book. And NPR just put out the quiz today digitally. So if anyone wants to take it and check it out. What is interesting is optimism really lives on a continuum. And I don't believe after doing this work that you are either an optimist or a pessimist. You exist on this continuum and in some circumstances or aspects of life, you are more prone to being optimistic than others. And it's really like about seasons and aspects of life. Like for me, medical, health stuff, I am so low in optimism. Like I am really like probably clinically low when it comes to health and like, you know, medical stuff. Whereas, you know, other things and even things that are more macro, I tend to be more optimistic or you know, even smaller things like when you make the wrong turn or you, you know, setbacks at work related or whatever those are that are like also skill related. Like I tend to be more optimistic. This is sort of, sort of a spoiler, but a little, a little tidbit, but really interesting to see how people qualify. Good things that happen to them and bad things that happen to them. Like, are they personalizing which one? Yeah, that was what I was gonna.

Jon Favreau (42:48)

This is what I was gonna bring up because I am someone who took it, who thinks I've always thought I was incredibly optimistic. I took it and I got a 14, which falls in the 12 to 17 category that says you are naturally quite optimistic, but still take a pessimistic view of the world some of the time. And so I thought about it and I went back to the quiz. And part of why I think I scored lower on some has less to do with my outlook on the world and more to do with my own self confidence, which, which is an aspect to optimism that I hadn't thought about before. So it's like when you, you know, did you make everyone laugh? Cause you're really funny or because everyone was having a good time?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (43:26)

Exactly.

Jon Favreau (43:27)

I would naturally be like, oh, everyone was having a good time. Cause I'm no comedic genius. And I would not have thought that has to do with optimism.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (43:34)

And it does. And it's really about the three Ps of optimism, if you will. It's like one of the P's is personalization. And so what we find is people that score higher in optimism are more readily able to accept responsibility for, like, good things that happen personally. Like, they had a part in that because of their own skill or, you know, their own actions. Where a lot of people. And this is where I score low, too, and I think it's really interesting. But yes. And then the same people will attribute. You know, if you're in a more pessimistic score, you will attribute. Like, when something bad happens, you take a lot of personal accountability. Like, this happened because of me.

Jon Favreau (44:20)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (44:20)

You know, we. My team didn't do a good job because, like, I didn't do my part as well as I should have. And the flip is true, too. So someone that's more optimistic might see it as, like, well, you know, maybe we were all having, like, a tough time or a bad day, or, you know, I worked as hard as I could, but these other, like, circumstances that are outside of me also come into play and have a reason for the impact of the result.

Jon Favreau (44:49)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (44:50)

But, you know, a lot of people are surprised by that, because when something good happens or a win happens, they're like, oh, it was good luck. Or I was at the right place at the right time, or, yeah, everyone was having a good time, or the opener was really funny. Or like, someone told a story before and, like, prepped everyone for. For a good time. Or everyone was drinking.

Jon Favreau (45:09)

Yeah.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (45:10)

Whatever that is. Instead of saying, like, I tell a great story or I'm funny, it's funny

Jon Favreau (45:15)

because when on the. On the questions about when the bad things happen, I think that's where I'm more optimistic. And I'm like, I get it. Like, I might have screwed something up,

Dr. Deepika Chopra (45:21)

but also, it doesn't mean something about my identity.

Jon Favreau (45:23)

Yeah, there's a lot of different things, but when a good thing happens, I really feel like we are taking any credit for it.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (45:29)

And that actually makes a lot of sense. And it's where a lot of people. Like, that was my. That was the big, surprising part of this test with people that kind of generally thought they were Optimistic. That is the place in which they sort of. The score tipped them a little bit lower.

Jon Favreau (45:44)

It is funny, because Emily took the quiz. We were talking about this today, and she scored very optimistic. And it now makes sense to me because Emily's much better at being like, I'm good at this, and I'm good at this, and I'm not as good at this, and that's okay.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (45:56)

And it's very uncomfortable. Cause our brains tend to really prioritize the things that we're not doing well or that need fixing or that are unfinished. Like, that's just how our brains are. And some people are just better at really spotlighting the things they're good at and the skills they have. And it's not like arrogance. It's literally confidence.

Jon Favreau (46:16)

Yeah, it's confidence.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (46:17)

It's confidence.

Jon Favreau (46:18)

Yeah. And that's a key ingredient to optimism.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (46:21)

It is.

Jon Favreau (46:22)

I want to sort of end by bringing it back to parenting. How do you think about modeling optimism for your kids when, A, you're not always feeling it yourself, and B, the world is the world?

Dr. Deepika Chopra (46:35)

Yep. Well, I love how you said modeling, because I think that in itself is sort of the key there. I think a lot of people think, and myself included, like, we're so pressured into. When something happens. Like, my kid comes home with something that happened to them at school or like, a story or something they read. Not read yet. Well, my older one, yes. You know, or kids were talking about something, or something happened on the playground. Whatever it is, whatever struggle they're going through or something was hard, you know, that they had to do in sports or school. We feel pressured that we have to have this, like, perfectly packaged response for them in that moment of, like, this is how you deal with it. But kids don't learn from that. They learn from modeling. And so if you are someone that is working on your optimism and optimistic outlook, and now you might know something like, oh, confidence is a really big part of. Of increasing optimism. And, like, one of those aspects is when something goes really well, like, you can't unsee that now that you know that. And if you are able, in the moment, maybe before something went well and in front of your kid, you're just like, someone congratulates you on something, you know, and you're like, yeah, just, you know, it was being at the right place at the right time, you might say something differently now. And they hear that, they look at it. And so really, kids learn from modeling. And I think one of the biggest things that we can do is our language is really understand what kind of language we're using. Are we using language that is saying, this is permanent? I think that's one of the biggest ones. This is the one. Like, I think we can try to tackle one thing at a time. And for me, like, we have so much going on. This permanence piece is what I try to be mindful of for myself. And while I'm being mindful of it myself, I try to see if my kids are listening. And they are, because now they call me out on stuff, and I call them out on stuff. But it's like when you're trying to. The other day, and I wrote about this in the book, it's such a mundane, silly example. But I was trying to open a bottle of pasta sauce, and I, like, I was just about to say it. I can never open those things. And I literally said out loud after two tries, like, I can never open these things. I'm never gonna be able to open this sauce. And our kitchen is one of those kitchens that's like, you know, part of the family. Or Mendillo. My son who. The one you know. You know. You know, both. But Dio looked around. Cause we've had this conversation before. And I think at that age, like, 4 years old, is when I started. Like, that is an age where they start saying language like that a lot. And it's just developmentally appropriate. But because I'm like. I'm trying to work on this, and I, like, also show them the process of me trying to work on it. Like, I just said it. I'm not hiding that from them. And going. And he. I hear him go, mom, don't say you can't breathe three times. And try for another seven times. Like, seven times. And just keep trying. And I was like, oh. And I was like, you're right. I am not able to open this right now. And I'm gonna keep trying. And maybe I still won't be able to open it right now, but I'm not gonna say I'm never gonna be able to open. It's the same way of, you know, when you're driving with them, and, I don't know, you miss a turn or you're late. And it's always at those moments, and you start. It's just like, how are you? Or, you know, he's learning to ride a bike, you know, and one of those things. It's like when he learned how to tie his shoes, he was so adamant about it. Cause he's the little brother. And it's just that language of, like, I can never. I can never. And then they learn that they can, and you remind them of that. And you yourself, however you are going through struggle. And I share that with them a lot. I mean, I think partly because I'm pretty open book, and of course, I have boundaries. They don't need to know all of our struggles. But I'm not a parent that, like, hides that from them or shoves things underneath a rug. I make many mistakes all day long, and I feel so bad about them. A lot of times when they're asleep, of course, yes, I'll look at Alex and be like, should we wake them up? Because, like, I yell, I did this today. I did that today. It wasn't great, but I remember the next morning. There's always room for repair. And the repair part, that's the modeling part that is so important for them to see. So if you're working on yourself and you're trying to have an optimistic outlook, or hopefully if you are reading the book and, like, there's a lot of these little moments that are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. And the whole point of it is once you see something, you can't unsee it. And so it sort of programs into you. And if you start sort of doing that or you're even reading a book, like, even just having this outside, like, my kids have it in their room now, and they're like, we're working on optimism. Like, even just that, modeling, like, what are we doing?

Jon Favreau (51:04)

The permanence point is so interesting to me and something I think about when this is a maybe disconnected example, but I think it might not be. Charlie knows enough about Trump now, right? Because dad talks about Trump all the time. So he finally asked about it. And because, you know, he's watching all these shows now where there's good guys and bad guys. He's like, oh, so Trump is bad? And then everyone else is good? Or, you know, And I was like, look, Trump does bad things. Everyone can do bad things and can do good things, and they can be a good person or a bad. Like, but you are not. Because I don't want him to think it's not about Trump. I don't care about that. But I don't want him to think that the condition of being bad or a bad guy or a villain or all this shit he sees on television now is a permanent state, because that means that for him, he's gonna think, either I am good or I am bad, and that I don't have the agency to change and that people don't have the agency to change. And I want him to, and Teddy, too. I want them to think that it is not a permanent condition. On whether it's the president, whether it's you, whether it's anyone. Like, we're all sort of. We can work on things and we're all human. Yes.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (52:17)

And I think that's part of it because I think that's so important, especially in this age. You know, I see it with my own kids. And one of the places that I feel like really a lot of worry about is, like, their relationship to perfectionism. And just like when mistakes are made or when things happen, they immediately are, like, identify it as part of them. Of like, am I bad or am I good? And that's that piece of it. Or. And you're right. Like, I think that's so. That's amazing that you're even thinking about it at this age. But this is a really good age to start. Like, understanding nuance and continuum and, you know, what you do and how you behave. And either if it's a mistake or if it's on purpose, all these things. It's not like your cemented identity.

Jon Favreau (53:02)

Yes. Yeah. No, that's a good place to leave it. Thank you for coming on. This is a great conversation. I'm glad we got to do this.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (53:09)

Me too.

Jon Favreau (53:09)

And the book is the Power of Real Optimism. Deepaka Chopra, thank you so much. Go out and get it.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (53:15)

Go out and get it.

Jon Favreau (53:16)

And then I was gonna say you'll feel more optimistic, but no, you'll know how to work on yourself and become more optimistic.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (53:20)

Yeah, you'll truly understand what optimism is.

Jon Favreau (53:23)

That's right.

Dr. Deepika Chopra (53:24)

And it's a work in progress.

Jon Favreau (53:26)

I'll see you at T Ball tomorrow. As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us@offlinericket.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline and Pod Save America, exclusive content and more. Go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. If you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with John Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Follow Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Emma Ilech Frank. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jarek Centeno is our sound editor and engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our episodes as videos. Every week, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.