Pope Trump, Zuckerberg’s AI Friends, and the Shocking Truth of How Teens Live Online

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau: Pope Trump, Zuckerberg’s AI Friends, and the Shocking Truth of How Teens Live Online – Detailed Summary

Released on May 8, 2025, by Crooked Media

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Introduction

In this episode of Offline with Jon Favreau, host Jon Favreau and co-host Ex Fisher delve into the pervasive influence of the internet and technology on our brains and society. The episode explores topics ranging from Mark Zuckerberg's ventures into artificial intelligence to the profound impact of social media on teenagers' lives. A significant portion of the discussion also revolves around Lauren Greenfield's documentary series Social Studies, which examines the intricate relationship between youth and digital technology.

Mark Zuckerberg’s AI Friends and the Loneliness Epidemic

Zuckerberg’s AI Vision

The conversation begins with a critical analysis of Mark Zuckerberg's recent interviews, where he discusses the potential of artificial intelligence to alleviate social isolation. Ex Fisher highlights Zuckerberg's remarks on the average American having fewer close friends than desired, suggesting AI could bridge this gap.

Mark Zuckerberg [06:06]: "The average person wants more connectivity than they have. Is this going to replace in-person connections? My default is that the answer is probably no."

Jon Favreau and Ex Fisher express skepticism, arguing that Zuckerberg's AI friends may exacerbate the existing loneliness epidemic rather than resolve it. They critique his perspectives as emblematic of the broader issues within Silicon Valley, where products are engineered for maximum engagement, often at the expense of genuine human connection.

Ex Fisher [08:18]: "Mark Zuckerberg's dream is that we don't develop real human relationships because we just rely on these AI chatbots forever."

Business Implications and Ethical Concerns

The hosts dissect Zuckerberg's business strategies, pointing out the lack of a coherent plan for his AI initiatives. They question the ethical implications of creating AI companions that could replace human interactions, emphasizing the potential for increased addiction and social isolation.

Jon Favreau [13:14]: "He doesn't have a business strategy right now. There's no business plan for either VR glasses or AI. He's trying to pull people into his ad-supported business."

Lauren Greenfield’s Documentary: Social Studies

Overview of the Project

Lauren Greenfield discusses her documentary series Social Studies, which provides an intimate look into teenagers' lives and their interactions with technology. Filmed over a year in Los Angeles, the series offers unprecedented access to the participants' phone activities and daily behaviors, revealing the chaotic and frenetic nature of their online existence.

Jon Favreau [03:01]: "They're all on a lot, but like one kid almost never posts. That's the departure from the norm."

Impact of the Pandemic on Youth

Greenfield explains how the COVID-19 pandemic served as a natural experiment, intensifying screen time and highlighting the correlation between increased digital engagement and mental health issues such as depression, social anxiety, and attention deficits.

Lauren Greenfield [42:51]: "During COVID, I started to see a connection between screen time and being sullen, ornery, depressed."

Fame and Social Media Pressure

A significant theme in the documentary is the pursuit of fame through social media. Greenfield observes that teenagers now equate popularity with metrics like likes and viral posts, often engaging in risky or harmful behaviors to achieve recognition.

Lauren Greenfield [53:12]: "When you ask kids what they want to be when they grow up, they say rich and famous. And that's not a job."

Addiction and Its Dual Nature

Greenfield articulates the paradox of social media addiction being both a lifeline and a loaded gun for teenagers. While it facilitates necessary communication and connection, it also fosters dependency and exposes them to constant comparison and self-esteem issues.

Lauren Greenfield [62:18]: "They need it to communicate. It's the way people communicate now. Kids need to be social like teenagers. That's a big part of it."

Solutions and Hope

Despite the grim observations, Greenfield expresses hope that increased awareness and empathy can drive changes. She advocates for safer online environments, regulated algorithms, and fostering face-to-face interactions to mitigate the negative impacts of social media.

Lauren Greenfield [77:35]: "I hope they take away empathy for what teenagers are going through. We need to do something about this."

The Intersection of Politics and Technology

Surveillance Concerns

Jon Favreau and Ex Fisher discuss an article by Ian Bogost and Charlie Warzel that warns of an emerging American Panopticon powered by AI and centralized government data. They debate the feasibility and current state of such surveillance capabilities, referencing real-world applications like ICE’s geolocation tools.

Jon Favreau [25:30]: "It could, for example, target for harassment people who deducted charitable contributions or bought Halal certified shampoos. Dark."

Elon Musk and Doge’s Decline

The hosts analyze Elon Musk’s faltering project Doge, critiquing its failure to establish a viable business model and speculating on its implications for governmental surveillance and AI development.

Ex Fisher [31:26]: "He just failed. He was a catastrophic failure at what he set out to do."

Cultural Reflections and Humor

Throughout the episode, Jon Favreau and Ex Fisher intersperse their discussions with humorous takes on current events, such as the absurdity of an AI-generated image of Donald Trump as the Pope. This blend of humor and critique underscores the show's intent to make complex technological and societal issues accessible and engaging.

Jon Favreau [34:16]: "It's a challenge with like, doing politics and religion and everything else via meme now."

Concluding Insights and Call to Action

The episode wraps up with a reflection on the necessity of balancing technological advancements with mental health and authentic human connections. The hosts emphasize the importance of collective action—both from tech companies and individuals—to create healthier digital environments.

Jon Favreau [75:36]: "It's here. This is how kids connect. Just carving out some of that time to interact face-to-face would be a huge difference."

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Key Takeaways

1. AI as a Double-Edged Sword: While AI has the potential to address social isolation, it risks deepening dependency on digital interactions, undermining genuine human connections.

2. Impact of Social Media on Youth: Social media serves as both a vital communication tool and a source of mental health struggles among teenagers, exacerbated by the pandemic-induced increase in screen time.

3. Fame and Behavioral Pressures: The quest for online popularity drives teenagers towards behaviors that can be harmful, such as risky content creation and constant self-comparison.

4. Surveillance and Privacy: The integration of AI with government data raises significant concerns about privacy and the potential for an American surveillance state.

5. Need for Empathy and Regulation: Addressing the negative impacts of technology requires empathy from adults, informed parental involvement, and meaningful regulatory measures to ensure safer digital spaces.

Notable Quotes

• Mark Zuckerberg on Connectivity (06:06): “The average person wants more connectivity than they have.”

• Ex Fisher on AI Friends (08:18): “Mark Zuckerberg's dream is that we don't develop real human relationships because we just rely on these AI chatbots forever.”

• Lauren Greenfield on Social Media Addiction (62:18): "They need it to communicate. It's the way people communicate now."

• Jon Favreau on Face-to-Face Interaction (75:36): "Just carving out some of that time to interact face-to-face would be a huge difference."

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Conclusion

This episode of Offline with Jon Favreau offers a comprehensive exploration of the intricate and often troubling relationship between technology, social media, and human well-being. Through incisive discussions and insights from Lauren Greenfield's documentary, the hosts shed light on the urgent need to navigate the digital landscape thoughtfully to foster healthier, more meaningful human connections both online and offline.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Ex Fisher]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Ex Fisher]

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[Lauren Greenfield]

It's the wild west compared to other media. Other media is all regulated and you know, even parents and young people are bracing the show. Even though there's a lot of hard content on it that 10 years ago I think we would be really nervous about showing teenagers, but I think everybody knows they are seeing it anyway. Starting with pornography at a really young.

[Jon Favreau]

Age, that was terrifying.

[Lauren Greenfield]

So the exposure is out of the bag. Like there's no way for parents to protect their kids from the kind of imagery and content that, you know, if they're in this generation, they've already seen. And so I think we need to help them process and navigate it now.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Favreau.

[Ex Fisher]

I'm Ex Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

And you just heard from today's guest, an extremely talented filmmaker who most recently created the documentary series Social Studies, Lauren Greenfield. So Social Studies is an incredible look into young people's relationship with technology. Lauren follows a group of teenage students here in Los Angeles for about a year. They gave her access to their lives and the screens on their phones.

[Ex Fisher]

Wow.

[Jon Favreau]

Which were recorded during filming. So the whole Offline team has been raving about this documentary.

[Ex Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

So we reached out to Lauren to talk about how it came together, what she learned about the way social media has transformed the way young people are growing up in America, especially after the pandemic. As a parent, I can say that it is both alarming and very important to watch.

[Ex Fisher]

Absolutely. Yeah. I really thought I knew the deal with, like, what was happening with teens on their phones and had, like, a vague sense of it. I had no idea. I had no idea what was going on.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, same thing. I had the vague sense. But it is. It's chaotic.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

That's one. Because everyone expects you to say horrifying, but it is. It's, like, frenetic and chaotic watching. And she does such a good job of capturing this. Yeah. Because you're seeing the screens, what they're doing on the screens and what they're doing in real life offline. And it's just. There's just so much sensory coming in. I'm like, how does anyone focus, think, do anything?

[Ex Fisher]

Well, it's fascinating to see the kids working so hard to navigate it too. Like, they really know what they're up against in a way that I certainly didn't.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, no, me, same. All right, so we'll get to that interview later, but first, got some news. Our boy Zuck is out there hitting the podcast circuit hard.

[Ex Fisher]

He really is.

[Jon Favreau]

He was on this past weekend with Theo Vaughn and the Dwarkesh podcast, hosted by Dwarkesh Patel. Spoiler. Mark absolutely crushed it.

[Ex Fisher]

He did.

[Jon Favreau]

He's great. He talked to Theo about how he likes to quote Raw Dog Reality.

[Ex Fisher]

He said it, like, three times the.

[Jon Favreau]

First minute in this. Raw Dog in reality, to Mark Zuckerberg is not drinking coffee.

[Ex Fisher]

He's not drinking. That's the joke. Yes. This is a really hot joke.

[Jon Favreau]

Hot choke.

[Ex Fisher]

Two years ago on Twitter, for a single day that he's so Happy that he has.

[Jon Favreau]

Although, did you see the coverage of the Conclave that's going on right now?

[Ex Fisher]

I sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Did you see the CBS clip?

[Ex Fisher]

No, it's.

[Jon Favreau]

There's a CBS clip going around and the commentators on CBS who are, they're saying, are you watching the Vatican? One thing that the Cardinals aren't doing is following this all on social media or Instagram, I think, because they don't have their phones. I believe the kids call this radio raw dogging.

[Ex Fisher]

You know what? If that's what the Cardinals are doing up there, it's a good a process as any. And I say hats off, giant red hats off to all of them.

[Jon Favreau]

Catholic Church does believe in raw dogging. We do know that.

[Ex Fisher]

Congratulations to whoever at CBS just, just told the Conclave that we're all raw dogging each other.

[Jon Favreau]

No, that's cbs. It's the. Their demos are. They've got the right demos.

[Ex Fisher]

Is there anything more dangerous than a middle aged media professional? And I say this as one half learning the lingo of young.

[Jon Favreau]

No, no. But it is fucking entertaining. All right, so at one point, that was the Theo von interview in the Dwarkesh asked Zuck about artificial intelligence in their interview. And first of all, there's a lot in both interviews I would say I encourage you to listen to both of them, but you know, they're quite boring. Not for the faint of heart.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But when he was asked about artificial intelligence, here's what Zuck said.

[Mark Zuckerberg]

The average American, I think has, I think it's fewer than three friends, three people they'd consider friends. And the average person has demand for meaningfully more. I think it's like 15 friends or something. Right. I guess there's probably some point where you're like, all right, I'm just too busy. I can't deal with more people. But the average person wants more connectivity, connection than they have. Is this going to replace kind of in person connections or real life connections? And my default is that the answer to that is probably no. I think it, you know, I think that there are all these things that are better about kind of physical connections when you can have them, but the reality is that people just don't have the connection and they feel more alone a lot of the time than they would like. So I think that a lot of these things that today there might be a little bit of a stigma around. I would guess that over time we will find the vocabulary as a society to be able to articulate why that is valuable and why the people who are doing these Things are like, why they are rational for doing it and like, and how it is adding value for their, for their lives.

[Jon Favreau]

I have been told that the humans.

[Ex Fisher]

Would, like, more friends are in demand for human relationships.

[Jon Favreau]

So I will invent them. More friends. Personally, I don't need them. I don't, I don't, I don't do friends. I think that's, I think that three is too many. I think that one is too many.

[Ex Fisher]

I know. I kept thinking about the, the bits from the, the Facebook whistleblower book about him talking to the executive team about Settlers of Catan.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Ex Fisher]

And it really, it's like, oh, he's like in his 30s, one of the richest, most powerful people in the world. And you see, he like, doesn't quite know how to navigate these interactions with another human being, so wants to do it through Settlers of Catan. And, and this is the person in charge of all of our relationships now.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess it sort of explains everything.

[Ex Fisher]

It does, doesn't it?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. What do you think is the solution to the loneliness epidemic? Spending more time with fake friends on your phone? Is that. I, I was saying just before we recorded this, I feel like this interview, these two interviews, like, like what Mark Zuckerberg said in these interviews represents everything that offline stands against.

[Ex Fisher]

It really does. Yes. Not just the. And we'll get, I think we should get into the rest of the interview too, but this part specifically. Absolute. Like, okay, so he helped create the social isolation epidemic in America and now he wants to take advantage of it to make money off of it by addicting us to AI friends so that we don't develop human relationships. Like, I keep thinking about all of these stories that you're seeing about college kids not learning how to write essays ever because they have chatbots do it for us. And I kind of think Mark Zuckerberg's dream is that we don't learn how to develop real human relationships because we just rely on these AI chatbots forever. Which is a great solution for him personally to make a lot of money, I guess, off of the isolation epidemic by just making it permanent.

[Jon Favreau]

He, at one point he talks about, he's asked about like, whether social media is bad or bad.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And it's a very revealing answer. And he said, he said, I don't think so. My understanding of the current state of the research is that there isn't kind of a conclusive finding that this is negative for people's well being. And then he said, so there's sort of the media part of social Media. And there's the social part of social media. I think the interacting with people to the extent that's helping you build good relationships, I mean, friendships and good relationships is one of the things that correlates the most strongly with positive well being and like feeling good about your life and all that. The media stuff, I mean, I think that's more entertaining. You know, I think you can, you know, people want things that are fun, right? People want to be entertained. For sure. It doesn't necessarily like correlate with good well being or bad well being. So what's interesting about that is he can tell the difference between like actually building relationships or interacting with people through social media and the media part. And yet everything he's building now is pushing people towards the media part and not the social part.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes, that is a good point. That the, the algorithms that they are pushing all of us towards on all of their platforms are fewer and fewer actual human connections and more and more Endless Scroll. Also, I should say the thing that he said about, well, the research is inconclusive. That's been the meta Official corporate line for years. Like they pushed it on me. It is simply not true. The research is overwhelmingly consistent that social media is incredibly harmful to you, psychologically, emotionally harmful to your politics. And they have like cherry picked like one or two studies that slightly complicate this to push this line that like, oh, it's impossible to say, but it just like nobody believes that except for the like one or two basically in house reporters at Facebook who just write whatever they say.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I think I will not keep reading Zuckerberg quotes from this, but I thought this one was quite revealing. In the same answer about the social media and whether it's good or bad.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

He says people use stuff that's valuable for them. One of my core guiding principles in designing products is that people are smart. They know what's valuable in their lives. Every once in a while something bad happens in a product. You want to make sure you design your product well to minimize that. But if you think something someone is doing is bad and they think it's really valuable, most of the time, in my experience, they're right and you're wrong. You just haven't come up with the framework yet for understanding why the thing they're doing is valuable and helpful in their life, that's the main way I think about it.

[Ex Fisher]

I y.

[Jon Favreau]

If someone thinks that, that abusing drugs and alcohol is right, if they think, I don't know, if Donald Trump thinks whatever he's Doing is right if you know other people. There's no morals, ethics, anything, whatever everyone wants to do is good by me.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes. He has really summed up the Silicon Valley self justification.

[Jon Favreau]

Unbelievable.

[Ex Fisher]

Perfectly. Which has always been that they start by building products that are deliberately made to be addictive. They are deliberately. And he kind of says this with the friends thing.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Ex Fisher]

That like, we know that you have this desire for, for example, social conn. We're going to design a product that does not deliver that, but that exploits that need and that. That addicts you through some like infinite scroll, whatever. And then, then we are going to say, well, you're using our product more and more. That means that you are a smart person who has independently made the decision to use this product. And how dare these know it all journalists try to say otherwise and say that you're not getting value from this service when they know that that's not true because they used to survey people and they used to survey their users and ask them, are you enjoying this service? Do you want to be using as much as you are? And they would always say, using it against my will because I find it hard to turn off. And he knows this. But they've still, I think they have managed to really like Gaslight themselves into believing. Well, if people are addicted to our services, that means that it's creating value in their lives.

[Jon Favreau]

But it's, it's so like even if he were. Even if his platform was somehow neutral and not addictive.

[Ex Fisher]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a crazy thing to say. If people, if people think something's valuable to them, then they're always right. That's just a ridiculous thing to say. Of course you can't have a democracy in that kind of way. You can have like, it's just. Right, that's great.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

But he is, of course he's ignoring the fact that it is not a neutral platform because everything he's doing is.

[Ex Fisher]

Trying to get people there's.

[Jon Favreau]

His whole. His whole business model is built on making sure people spend more time on his platform.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

So you can't just say that, oh, the platform just. Some people just like Facebook. Some people just like the fucking AI slop that I'm feeding them now instead of the human connections that they used to be making.

[Ex Fisher]

Right. So I think that is kind of what's really interesting about this entire media tour that he's on and his like re. Re. Rebrand that he's on. Because I don't know if you noticed this. The MAGA mark is over there's no chain. He's out there in the VR Ray Bans. He's not like Theo Von is like kind of Maga, but like he's not going on Rogan anymore. He's talking to like friendly tech adjacent people who are going to like, like. Dorkash asks some real questions, but it's not like a journalistic interview, right? But what he wants to talk about is the business. And I think that what really came through to me here is that he doesn't really have a business strategy right now. He doesn't really have a business plan. Like the thing that he really wants to talk about are the VR glasses and AI. But if you read between the lines, there's no, there's, there's no business plan for either. There's no business strategy. The VR glasses is part of their Reality Lab segment which lost 4 billion last quarter. 4 billion and a quarter. And that is their 10th straight quarter of losing on average $4 billion or more. And that's after like there's been a quote unquote spike in the sales of the Ray Ban. So there's no business there. And the other thing he wants to talk about is AI, but there's no product he's pitching. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you listen, he's talking about like, oh, the llamas, which is their AI product. And it's like, these are the benchmarks we're trying to hit. But Durkesh keeps asking him very soft versions of like, okay, but so what? And he doesn't have an answer because there's not a thing. That's why he's talking about chatbot friends.

[Jon Favreau]

He talks about how he imagines it will be ad supported someday, right? Even though it'll be maybe one day.

[Ex Fisher]

It will be a business.

[Jon Favreau]

Even the way he talks about that, he's like. And so you're scrolling through your, your feeds and, and a reel starts and you're looking at it and it seems like a person, but it's actually just like an AI bot that's trying to sell you a product. Like, that's his. Yeah, that's it. That's the business model, which, who knows, it might fucking work.

[Ex Fisher]

But there is one thing that I think they could do is I think they could supplant a lot of the advertising industry. There's a very interesting story in the Verge about this, about how something that AI could do is to quickly generate and then iterate on like AI generated ads, basically so that you will see like a different version of the same ad every time because AI is constantly testing it. So the idea is that instead of going to, you know, McCann Erickson, you go to Facebook because their cheap AI builds a shitty ad, but it's a lot cheaper and they iterate on it. You know, I thought was really interesting with the two things he absolutely did not want to talk about, which were Donald Trump and Instagram, which I thought was striking because that used to be the centerpiece of his whole grand strategy.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Ex Fisher]

Mark Zuckerberg's entire plan for the future of his company was we're going to partner with Donald Trump and Instagram is going to be our big growth product, which it is. But now Donald Trump fucking hates him and he's maybe going to lose Instagram.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, he also, there's a couple other more funnier things, lighter moments, I guess, in the. THEO von yeah. Interviewing yeah, we talked about his, talked about his apocalypse shelter in Hawaii.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Which he described as more of an underground storage situation.

[Ex Fisher]

That's a funny way to talk about your Hawaiian apocalypse shelter. But I don't know if you want to talk about that. Like, this is what I mean. Like, he's not even trying to brand himself anymore. He's just showing us who he is. And it, it's kind of a bummer. It's kind of a little sad.

[Jon Favreau]

He does he, at one point, he talks about how he's the most awkward person I know.

[Ex Fisher]

That kind of broke my heart. Like, I really feel like I'm seeing the Jesse Eisenberg character from the movie again.

[Jon Favreau]

It's real. It's so real. Yeah, it was very funny when Theovon was like, where'd you go to school? He's like, harvard. They actually made a movie about all that. Yeah, I thought that was funny.

[Ex Fisher]

Just two brainiacs going at it.

[Jon Favreau]

How about when he asked Zuckerberg about, like, what was his best date, what was his most magical date? And he said, get to that part. He, he said that he, he personally, he loves working with artists, and so he commissioned an artist to build a sculpture of Priscilla on their, to put on their front lawn.

[Ex Fisher]

Wow. I mean, that's a, that's a very lavish gift.

[Jon Favreau]

She apparently did not like it that much.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay. Wow. Billionaire problems, you know? You know that feeling when you commission a famous artist to make a sculpture for your wife and she doesn't really like it. Fellas, anybody can really.

[Jon Favreau]

I had a nickel.

[Ex Fisher]

I know, I know I had a nickel.

[Jon Favreau]

I'd have enough to buy a sculpture.

[Ex Fisher]

It is so it's.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, did I not. Did I not make that clear? Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Wow.

[Jon Favreau]

It's of her.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay, that would be creepy.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah. No, it's not just any. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, it's a. It's a sculpture of Priscilla that. Imagine seeing this. Your. Your significant other puts a.

[Ex Fisher]

A sculpture.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You wake up and there's a sculpture view on the front. Underground shelter in Hawaii.

[Ex Fisher]

Julia does make play DOH sculptures of me all the time that she leaves around the house as little gifts, but I think it's sweet. Well, they didn't. They have to sell the hospital that he bought for her. Okay. Wow. We're seeing the sculpture and it is terrifying. It's green. She looks like a Smurf.

[Jon Favreau]

Now I know why.

[Ex Fisher]

She looks like the T1000 and a Smurf AS1, which is pretty cool.

[Jon Favreau]

Get out of here. Get out of there.

[Ex Fisher]

What do you think it's like to be with Mark Zuckerberg all the time?

[Jon Favreau]

I think we saw. I think the Theo Vaughn interview was probably pretty good.

[Ex Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

That's probably it. You know, just little robotic. He's just raw dog in reality. No caffeine, no nothing. What is the guy doing?

[Ex Fisher]

He should.

[Jon Favreau]

He just loves to code, he loves to build, loves to connect people.

[Ex Fisher]

If I can quote Danny DeVito and I. I want to make clear that I'm quoting someone because I try not to use this slur generally because it is gendered. Right. So I don't. I don't mean it is gendered specific, but Mark Zuckerberg retire bitch is what I would say. It's going to be better for you. You can find out what your wife likes so that you don't have to buy her weird sculptures as presents. You can just buy her, like, write her a nice card.

[Jon Favreau]

He's going through something.

[Ex Fisher]

I mean, aren't we all. Thanks to Mark Zuckerberg, I was gonna say, and his assignment of AI Friends.

[Jon Favreau]

Elon Musk goes through something. Mark Zuckerberg goes through something. Donald Trump goes through something. We all go through something.

[Ex Fisher]

I think just to bring it back to the AI Friends thing, I think it is both dystopian and terrifying because that's clearly the world he envisions for us. But I think this also underscores for me that they don't know what the fuck to do with AI. No, like today it's. It's AI Chatbot friends, but yesterday it was personal. Personal assistance. And tomorrow it's going to be like writing assistance. And then the day after that, it'll be something else. And like none of these things are real. It's just things that he's throwing out because he's trying to speak to I think basically Wall street and say like push up our stock price.

[Jon Favreau]

I agree. I do think what I have come to think about AI is and I guess this is a bias from everything we talk about on the show is what we know is that it will, and we talked about this a little last week, it will continue to suck people into the platform to use more AI, use the services, continue. Like all of the problems with social media making you lonelier, giving you the illusion of connection when it's not really connection, it's just going to amplify all of that.

[Ex Fisher]

And it really bums me out because there is a version of AI that could be really useful and really have it. Like there was just this study.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm sure some of it will be, I'm sure a lot of it will.

[Ex Fisher]

Be of course, but it's. But the fact that like there was just this study that came out that looked at AI chatbots ability to substitute for primary care physicians in doing diagnostic visits and it found, according to the study, if I was reading it correctly, that it outperformed PCPS on average, which is great. And it is great not just because it's like a better way to get a quick, better like diagnostic visit, but also because we have a doctor shortage now. We have that because doctors are a monopoly that's controlled by a cartel. But that's another podcast. I don't want to get the doctors mad at me again. But my point is that like, like there are a lot of use cases for AI that could be really socially productive and could make money, could be like win, win for everybody. But because the technology is being developed and controlled by people like Mark Zuckerberg who just want to pull people into his ad supported like slop business. That is unfortunately not where the bulk of the investment is going. And it's a shame.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's tough when antisocial humans are behind social media.

[Ex Fisher]

Right? Yeah. Listen, maybe if he keeps going on Theon Von, he will learn that it's nice to talk to a person. Maybe they should play settlements of catan or something. Forward Facing activities, Mark. Forward Facing Activities.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Comedy Central]

This podcast is supported by Comedy Central's the Daily Show. When major headlines are coming fast and furious from every direction, it's impossible to know which way to turn. Look to Jon Stewart and the Daily Show News Team every weeknight to keep the news on the straight and narrow no matter how twisted it all seems. To get the Daily show new weeknights at 11:10 Central on Comedy Central the next day on Paramount. Plus.

[Jon Favreau]

In other news a couple weeks back, two of our good friends at the Atlantic, Ian Bogost and Charlie Warzel published a joint piece about what they believe will be the next phase of Doge, the quote, American Panopticon, basically an American version of the Chinese surveillance state, based on the fact that Elon and Doge have gained access to sensitive data across the federal government on just about every American. Ian and Charlie make the case that with government data now centralized and advancements in AI making huge amounts of data more searchable, you can easily imagine what an American surveillance state could look like. They write, quote, it could, for example, target for harassment people who deducted charitable contributions to the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, drove or parked near mosques and bought Halal certified shampoos. It could intimidate citizens who reported income from Trump antagonistic competitors or visited queer pornography websites. It could identify people who have traveled to Ukraine and also rely on prescription insulin and then lean on insurance companies to deny their claims. Dark.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah, dark it is.

[Jon Favreau]

How much did. How much did this scare you? There was also a New York Times piece similar to this, just about Doge scooping up all the data.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah. A lot of smart people are calling attention to this. I'm glad they're doing it. I would say I'm like, medium high on this. Like six out of 10, seven out of 10. I think they're like, it's worth separating out. Their are two arguments here. One is that the vast repository of government data on all of us, which is huge, could in theory be pulled together to create an Orwellian surveillance state. And. But then part number two is that this is what Doge is doing. And I think the first is true and important, and I think the second is, like, maybe a little bit of a stretch. But you know what? It's useful to call attention to the first.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I do think it's a. It's a little more complicated. My guess is that it's a little more complicated than Elon and Doge went in there, and we're like, we got to scoop up data on everyone so we can have our surveillance.

[Ex Fisher]

Totally. Right, Right.

[Jon Favreau]

That doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It couldn't happen.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Or doesn't mean that others are using their work.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Or will use their work to do. Could use their work.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And we've already seen this around. We're seeing this around immigration.

[Ex Fisher]

Yep.

[Jon Favreau]

And so they are very eager to track down every single person in this country who is undocumented.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Or even legal residents. Green car that are, like, totally illegal immigrants. And that is an extremely hard thing to do. Even with the data that the government has on everyone.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

The data that the government has on people has traditionally been siloed. So the IRS doesn't speak to social, you know, all this kind of stuff. And by putting it all together and throwing in AI. Yeah. They're going to be able to track people down more easily. I'm. I found myself, you know, I'm still. I guess, you know, we're elder millennials, but I'm still young enough to be part of a generation that's like, privacy. They are. They know everything about us. They have all of our data. What's the big deal? I'm much more worried about it now that Donald Trump is president again with a bunch of creepy authoritarians around him.

[Ex Fisher]

Who clearly want to do authoritarianism and clearly want to do retaliation against political enemies.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. I think that because it's not as. It's not as you'd think before. Everyone knows everything about me. And so what are they gonna do? It's like, it's not necessarily that. It's not just. Here's a. Here's a hidden fact about you. We're gonna embarrass you with. It is like, we're gonna track you down, we're gonna know where you are, we're gonna look in your past and see if there's something that we can make up, a reason to arrest you or detain you or bring you in for question. Right.

[Ex Fisher]

Like, I totally agree. I think the version of it that I am worried about and the version of it that we're already getting is a little bit different from the one that is being warned about. Like, in this Atlantic piece. Like, we can look at how this is already happening, specifically with immigration. Like, you mentioned, like, there was a story that came out a couple weeks ago that Palantir is helping ICE to build a tool to geolocate immigrants, including legal immigrants, based on all this federal government data for mass deportation. Now, mass deportations are not happening currently. And I was talking to a friend of mine who covers immigration, and it was, like, assigned, as of, like, January 20th to cover the mass deportation program. And he was kind of telling me was like, the thing that no one really knows how to talk about is that not only are mass deportation not happening, but there's no real preparation for it. There's no indication that they're actually coming. But what is happening is that we are getting a small but extremely scary number of targeted, like, attacks, basically by the state on seemingly random immigrants to harass and terrorize them or ship them off to a torture prison in El Salvador. And that's not the same as mass deportation.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. But they're sort of using it as a cost effective shortcut.

[Ex Fisher]

Exactly right.

[Jon Favreau]

To scare the shit out of everyone else and hopefully get people to self deport.

[Ex Fisher]

Exactly right. It's meant to terrorize the rest of us because maybe I'll be the one of the 200 people who gets targeted with this. And it's, I think also meant to kind of like satisfy the Trump supporters who get to feel like mass deportation is happening, even if it's actually not. And that is a very scary scenario. And I think that it's, it's, it's different than what is being described in these articles of a like China style mass surveillance, omnipresent police state, Orwellian scheme. Not because Trump is not evil enough to do it, but like that kind of a system requires a huge, huge like set of systems and bureaucracies in every city and state and province and every agency.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, federalism makes it a little tricky.

[Ex Fisher]

But also the fact that they're incompetent and the fact that they just like fired hundreds of thousands of people, like what China does requires millions and millions of people working together in like concert to do, to target everybody. But what we are getting instead is this like arbitrary hyper specific targeting of people for basically just like signaling to the rest of us, probably personally directed by Trump or one of the boneheads around him in a way that is, is very, very bad. It's just like a little bit different than like everybody would be targeted. And I think it's important to emphasize that both, because we want to understand what's happening now without worrying too much about a hypothetical that I don't know is actually going to come to pass. And I think we want to understand what the purpose of the version of state surveillance that we're getting actually is.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I do think, I worry a little bit that AI is going to speed it all up and so all of these systems that would have taken all these people in coordination to build will be easier.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know enough about all of this to see how much easier and how much faster.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But I think your point is well taken. Yeah, we should, we should note that Elon's work at Doge is finally winding down.

[Ex Fisher]

Oh boy, what a, what a time it's been.

[Jon Favreau]

He's told reporters he's going to be spending less time with Doge recently told Tesla investors he'll be spending more time back at the company. What do you make of our pal's.

[Ex Fisher]

Departure, I mean, I think it's just. He just failed. I think that he was just like a catastrophic failure at what he set out to do. He did a bunch of unpopular cuts that are actually perversely going to cost more money. Rather than save anything, he took a giant hit on approvals that also hurt Trump. By extension, the Cabinet revolted against him. And then I think the big thing was he fucked up the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race. So there's like.

[Jon Favreau]

And his company and fucked up Tesla.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah, that's right. And also Tesla is like, really kind of in the shape which it was. But people forget this before the election, its stock was on a really concerning slide because the business model just fundamentally didn't work anymore. And that got reversed because people were pricing in a corruption premium and they're like, oh, he'll just get access to all these government contracts. And maybe he will, but also he might not. So, like, the company could be kind of sunk. But all of which is to say, like, there's a read out there that, like, oh, he's leaving because he accomplished his real secret mission of installing the, like, Doge Supra government surveillance state. And I don't know, I don't think that's what happened. I think that he just, like, flailed and up.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of people lost their jobs and a bunch of kids in Africa are dying. So he did. That is another legacy.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Of Doge. But you're right, like, it doesn't even seem like Congress will codify a lot of the cuts.

[Ex Fisher]

That is true.

[Jon Favreau]

And the cuts are, you know, he promised 2 trillion, then it was down to 1 trillion, then it's like 165 billion. Then some of that was like under 100 billion. Like, it's just.

[Ex Fisher]

That's going to cost us like 150 billion in order to get like 60 billion worth of cash.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, especially because of what they did at the irs. So the IRS is going to collect less tax revenue from rich people.

[Ex Fisher]

Right. Plus, you can't fly into Newark anymore. No, that's not. I don't, I don't have any inside information on Newark, although I am flying into Kennedy now.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah, No, I won't be flying into Newark until this whole thing blows over. And I don't know what this whole thing is.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah, I. It was a. It was a weird, fucked up, horrible experiment. And I'm so glad that it's over. I don't know if I can claim vindication on my take that he was going to get axed. Because he was going to piss off Trump, though.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, right.

[Ex Fisher]

I think he outlasted what I thought he would do by a significant degree.

[Jon Favreau]

I think Trump still likes him. And I think Trump is, like, genuinely happy about.

[Ex Fisher]

Yes, I think he's. He thinks it was great.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, he does. Because he doesn't know any better. All right, One lighter, at least funnier thing before we jump to the interview. Of course we are. As I mentioned, we're taping this on May 7, which is the first day of the Papal Conclave.

[Ex Fisher]

Who are you voting for in the Conclave? You're part of the Conclave, right?

[Jon Favreau]

I am part of the Conclave.

[Ex Fisher]

As one of the progressives.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I am the Cardinal of Hancock Park.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay, sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. They did for me. No. And so we couldn't pass up the chance to talk about the fact that the President of the United States in the White House chose to broadcast to the world an AI generated image of Donald Trump as the Pope.

[Ex Fisher]

Something about the White House, official White House account. Tweeting it out was the thing that was like, oh, wow, we're really. We've just got a crazy toddler, which I knew beforehand. But you see these little reminders that it's like the institutions are gone. It's just this wacko.

[Jon Favreau]

And he said. And. And he was asked about, and he was like, I don't know who. Someone posted. I don't know, like, your account, Al. And the White House. He was like. And then he said the Catholics loved it. It. He just. He knows. He's in touch with him. Although the 1.4 billion Catholics around the world.

[Ex Fisher]

He was like, well, he's. Listen, he knows the Catholics almost as well as he knows the Jews, which famously, he knows so well. I hate to say it. I thought it was funny. I thought the whole thing was pretty funny.

[Jon Favreau]

I just laughed. I. It's not like I thought it was the. The best thing ever or the worst thing ever. I just, like, this is a. This is a. A challenge with like. Like, you know, doing politics and religion and everything else via meme now.

[Ex Fisher]

Right, right.

[Jon Favreau]

All that kind of. Because, like, can people still be offended? I can't. Like, that shit can't offend me anymore.

[Ex Fisher]

I know.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, I mean, like, like. And if as a. As a Catholic, not a devout Catholic, but a Catholic, like, I am very offended about his policies towards immigrants and the poor.

[Ex Fisher]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

And everything. Like, he is. I do not think Jesus would be happy with Donald Trump in any way.

[Ex Fisher]

Making himself the Pope, Right.

[Jon Favreau]

If Donald Trump, like, if Donald Trump even moved just a tiny bit towards where Pope Francis was like, he can fucking post all the AI Pope memes he wants. I would be totally fine with that. If he just moved his administration just a little bit in the direction on just about any issue. Just about any issue.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah. That when I first saw it, I was like, unbelievable. I can't believe he was so disrespectful. And then I was like, okay, if a politician I like, did this, what would I think? And I had to be like, obvious, honest. I would think it was funny. If AOC was like, I'm the Pope now. I would be like, could you imagine.

[Jon Favreau]

Could you imagine Fox if AOC did that?

[Ex Fisher]

We would become so Catholic over there.

[Jon Favreau]

It would be.

[Ex Fisher]

They would decide that they are suddenly so Catholic at Fox News.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I am really pulling for a progressive pope. Another Francis I.

[Ex Fisher]

You know what? If they want to make Trump pope, that's bad news for the Catholic Church. But on net, are we all better off? Ship them over there to the Vatican. Mike, Waltz it.

[Jon Favreau]

I think we need a. I like, if they do. There's the. There's a Hungarian guy.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Who's like the Orban choice.

[Ex Fisher]

Really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. He's like, conservative.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

We don't want that, but I think we're.

[Ex Fisher]

I think it's good to have the good news is who you're rooting for.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm. Yes. I'm rooting for this guy, Luis Antonio Tegel.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

He is. He's Filipino.

[Ex Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Progressive.

[Ex Fisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. He'd be the first Asian. Asian pope.

[Ex Fisher]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

And he's also like, they think he's the. There were someone who's writing about it. I think in the ringer that he's like, he's huge on Facebook and in Tick Tock. And he's like, so he's very, you know, he communicates via social media and.

[Ex Fisher]

He'S a cool Pope.

[Jon Favreau]

He, like, he's known for, you know, he stood against Duterte and is very progressive on poverty, migration, LGBTQ issues. So he would be awesome. He would be like the progressive, more progressive choice. There's a couple others. Because the one thing about this conclave is now I'm just doing. Now I'm just doing like a pope segment. But Francis appointed, like, a huge amount of the cardinals that were voting.

[Ex Fisher]

I saw that. Yes. That he kind of like packed the courts a little bit.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And there's fewer. So percentage wise, there's fewer from Europe and some are fewer from North America. And there's more from Asia.

[Ex Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

More from Africa. Right. So we'll see.

[Ex Fisher]

I mean, that's where all the growth is for the church. I know. So now that you have a guy, are you going to have George Clooney write an op ed, kind of massaging.

[Jon Favreau]

Him, like with Kamala, the Hungarian guy. Must go.

[Ex Fisher]

I mean, look, if you did it with the Democratic presidential nominee, I'm just saying, can't you pull it off again?

[Jon Favreau]

And look how it turned out. 10, 10. No notes.

[Ex Fisher]

I listen, it was worth a shot.

[Jon Favreau]

It was worth a shot. It was worth the shot.

[Ex Fisher]

Could have been worse.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, before we jump to the interview, some quick housekeeping. When we're in Charge. The Next Generation's Guide to Leadership by our friend Amanda Lippman is out next week on May 13th. Amanda's the co founder of Run for Something. She spent years helping launch young political careers. Now she's sharing insights that will help the next generation of leaders make an impact without burning out. She interviewed a ton of next generation leaders, over 100. Maxwell Frost, Versha Sharma, all kinds of great people she interviewed. And we had her on Pod Save America the other week. It was a great interview. Check it out.

[Ex Fisher]

Nice.

[Jon Favreau]

Go pre order when we're in charge. You can pre order it [e-mail] books or wherever you get your books. After the break. My conversation with documentarian Lauren Greenfield, Offline is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Summer's just around the corner and the folks at Mint Mobile have a hot take. Getting a summer bod is out getting your savings Bod is in this spring and summer. We want skimpy wireless bills and fat wallets.

[Ex Fisher]

Yeah, we do.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Comedy Central]

This podcast is supported by Comedy Central's the Daily Show. When major headlines are coming fast and furious from every direction, it's impossible to know which way to turn. Look to Jon Stewart and the Daily show news team every weeknight to keep the news on the straight and narrow, no matter how twisted it all seems to get. The Daily show new weeknights at 11:10 Central on Comedy Central and next day on Paramount.

[Jon Favreau]

Plus Lauren Greenfield, welcome to Offline.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Thank you for having me.

[Jon Favreau]

So I watched the first episode of Social Studies last night and afterwards my wife asked how it was and I said three things. It's absolutely terrifying. You have to watch it immediately and we can never let the boys have phones. But I do hope that our conversation persuades more parents and kids these ages to watch watch together. And I'd love to start just by having you talk about how the project came about in the first place.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah. Well, in my work in photography and filmmaking, I've been looking at youth culture for a long time. My first book was actually about kids in LA in late 90s and how they were affected by what I called the values of Hollywood fame and image and materialism. And I went back to the subject, looking at, wanting to look at how they were affected by this new media, social media, with kind of a hunch that all of these values that I had looked at before were amplified. And that's. But I was right out of school when I did the first project and I was a mother when I did social studies. And so I also could see with my own kids who were 14 and 20 when I started this, that they were like from two different generations. The older one was a reader, had a huge amount of focus and attention.

[Jon Favreau]

So the older one born in, born in 2000. 2000. Okay, so like older side of Gen.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Z. Yeah, the younger one, 2006, had never grown up in a time without a phone. Also as the youngest kid, got devices more as babysitting and basically got all of his news on TikTok had more issues with attention. And during COVID I started to see a connection between like screen time and being sullen, ornery, depressed.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

So I wanted to dive into how this media was affecting kids. But I also felt like it was this black hole where we really didn't know what was on the phone and what exactly they were getting. And I always feel like that's the thing in documentary, is to get those details. So I created kind of a social experiment which was different from my prior documentaries, where I had a cohort of kids who we were gonna follow for the year, but with full access to their phones and their phone content.

[Jon Favreau]

Was that. Was it hard to find students who were willing to do that and parents who were willing to approve of that?

[Lauren Greenfield]

I think it was a big commitment for the kids and a big trust on the part of the parents and the kids. I think that the teenagers who are in the show are amazing. And I think a lot of teenagers feel really touched by this issue now. And so they had skin in the game. Like they wanted to get into this inquiry. I think they were all afraid too, but they have been like, it was a huge process. Like they gained trust as we went through and actually shared more and more and more of themselves. And now a lot of them say they were really changed by the experience and have been like doing Q&As with me and talking. We're doing outreach to schools and they've been talking to other students. And I mean, you can see kind of huge changes in them during the year. And I think now looking back, this kind of study of their own behavior was really valuable to them and I think to teenagers watching, which is really gratifying for them.

[Jon Favreau]

Just from a like a social science perspective, was it a random cross section of kids? Was there any concern that it would be sort of like self selecting and that you'd get the most online kids? And then also, once you figured out who you were going to follow, were you concerned that they might be acting differently, knowing that this is a documentary?

[Lauren Greenfield]

All really, really good questions. So. So it's a really diverse group. So they're diverse socioeconomically, racially in terms of gender identity, but also diverse in terms of their relationship with social media, their history with social media, and how much they're on it. I mean, they're all on it a lot, I should say. But like one kid, Jonathan, almost never posts. That's very much the. That's very much the departure from the norm. Most of them post very frequently, but, like, one is an entrepreneur, one uses it for his music. One girl, Sydney, had a history of being slut shamed and so that she really brought to the table. Everybody had a kind of different history with it. What I was looking for, and it wasn't random, I was looking for, first of all, kids that were Open to it that I felt could be honest and sharing of their experience and also these different experiences. I started by doing kind of mini interviews with, like, over 200 kids. And there were certain things that just came up again and again, like body image and bullying and social anxiety and entrepreneurship activism. So I wanted, with our group to be able to represent a lot of those ideas. But then there's kind of a beautiful randomness and serendipity that happens with documentary.

[Jon Favreau]

And so you just get more comfortable.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah, Like, Ivy was somebody that I just liked. She was creative, she was cool, she was interesting. But I had no idea until I got into it that her family had been kind of broken apart by conspiracy theory and algorithms on the Internet. And I had no idea that she had a brother who would become her sister during the course of our filming. So those are just things that kind of enrich the experience. But, yeah, and then we have a group of, like, 25 kids that we would meet in discussion.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And then we just really focus in on about 10 of them.

[Jon Favreau]

One of my first reactions was that living at home, away from their friends, on their screens during the pandemic did, like, profound damage to this generation in ways that, I mean, it's sort of cliche to say that now, but I think we still haven't quite figured out how serious and far reaching this is. You started collecting footage for this project in the summer of 2021, opportune time for the series. Right when the kids were going back to school for the first time since the pandemic started. One girl says the pandemic amplified the need for connection, which was why she spent so much time on her phone. Another said that people. And this one really stuck with me, that people in real life are more intimidating to deal with than people online. Did you get the sense from any of these kids that the connections they were making online were fulfilling substitutes for relationships in the physical world?

[Lauren Greenfield]

Well, they definitely were substitutes, and I think during the pandemic, they were necessary substitutes because it was like their. And I think that's why also, parents just kind of gave in to screen time as much as possible and had very little control over it because they were also on school that way. Unfortunately, a lot of times you see kids, when you see their screens, multitasking in school. So while they're learning, they're also playing a video game or talking to a friend. It was needed during that time, and it was their only connection. I think the unfortunate part is that the devices are so addictive, as we see, and as they say that those addictions persisted post pandemic and that the behaviors that changed really also persisted post pandemic. So it just kind of amplified everything, but it really amplified trends that were already happening. Yeah, so I. I definitely don't think it was because of the pandemic that we're seeing it, but you're right. It was kind of the perfect natural experiment because everything they were just on their screens more. And so I think the influence grew.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, one, one important dynamic you document. Most of these kids have gone viral at some point. You ask them this. They say they have. Virality leads to fame. Fame in some cases leads to money or at least status or at least some sense of self worth. But what it takes to go viral is oftentimes behavior that could be harmful or damaging or just antisocial. Substance abuse, provocative photos, bullying. I think we actually have a clip of a moment in the show where you're talking with the kids about this dynamic.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Who in here has gone viral? Show of hands. Oh, my gosh, everybody's gone viral with.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, Kim K. Like, she got famous.

[Ex Fisher]

For the sex tape. And so, like, with platforms like TikTok, where like, anybody can get famous, that's.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Like, if you put out content like.

[Jon Favreau]

Kim Kardashian did, maybe you'll get famous.

[Lauren Greenfield]

If I could become a multi millionaire with a giant company and like, be as famous as Kim Kardashian, I would release my sex tape. And sex tape.

[Ex Fisher]

She's all set up now.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Her whole life is set up. She's super famous. She has, like millions of dollars. She has her own company. So does all of her family.

[Jon Favreau]

Her mom definitely, like, inspired that whole thing. How do you think the lure of fame or just attention is one of the big problems with kids in social media?

[Lauren Greenfield]

I mean, I think that's a transformational thing that kids have always wanted to be popular at that age. Like, that was kind of a core part of being a teenager, getting accepted by kids at school. But now to be popular means thousands or ten thousands of likes or going viral. And it's quantifiable, it's comparable. And the kids are painfully aware of all the metrics. And so and how you do that, like, that's kind of the new coming of age. And we hear these stories from Ivy and from Sydney, and Maren talks about, you know, I would release a sex tape if that would give me that kind of fame and lifestyle. Sydney really breaks down the story about how she had this passion for photography, and she started posting, like, her photographs of Sunsets or things she shot. No likes. Then she starts posting pictures of her body, lots of likes. And so she leans in and, like, continues to do that in ways that. That I think for parents are kind of shocking and potentially dangerous. And she would say the same thing today. But I think that it's a natural reaction to the value of fame. And you had asked earlier, like, did I feel like they acted different because they were being filmed. One of the really nice surprises was you would think when fame's such a value, that they would all be, like, doing things to get more airtime or to be on tv. And actually, that wasn't the case at all. Like, you can see when they come to group, they really bring themselves. They're not curating their clothes. They're not wearing makeup. Somehow this project had a kind of honesty to it that they really liked and wanted to be a part of. And yet in the show, we see different perspectives. So we also see what they project online, where they're kind of their presentational selves. And then we also follow them in verite with their friends, so we get to see, like, who they are with their friends. So we actually can see, like, behind the curtain, like, when, you know, Ellie's lying to her mom or when what she's saying on a text is different than what we're seeing with our own eyes.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And that's, like, the exciting part about the medium. And then we superimposed with animation what was going on in their phones. So you could. Could process both at the same time.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and so much of it is about their social circles in school, but also to the point about fame. And they're mentioning Kim Kardashian. It seems like the role models that they are seeing on social media. And you see this in the show as well. They could be with their friends, but then they're also seeing, like, Kylie Jenner, you know, posing something. And if you. If your role models are people who are. Are famous because they got famous. Right. Like, or they're just influencers. And I worry that there's a generation of kids that are not thinking about, like, what they want to be when they grow up, but, like, who they want to be or who they want to be like. Or that they just want to be famous. They want to make money and. And that. And you can't really blame them because that's all they see on their screen means.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And. And that's actually how success is measured in their world. Like, I mean, that's. That's something I've been observing for a long time is that, like, when you ask kids what they want to be when they grow up, they say rich and famous.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And that's not a job.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And, and the way you get there is, you know, these things that create engagement, which, as you said, is like bodies or, you know, even like for male body pressure. Like, they talk about, guys have to be like, buff and look a certain way. Kids of color are talking about how it's the Caucasian body type that gets more attention. Risky behavior. Ella talks about that getting more attention and how kind of enticing that is. And then you get into social contagion that can be negative or destructive. Like, who's the thinnest? Getting into eating disorders, even canceling as a way to get popularity.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

So it's definitely a slippery slope when fame is the goal.

[Jon Favreau]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. When people hesitate to get help, it doesn't just affect them. It impacts families, workplaces and entire communities. This mental health awareness month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. You're not going to get any judgment from us. No, in fact, you're going to get judgment if you don't seek therapy.

[Ex Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

And we're therapy boys. You know that. We've benefited from therapy. We enjoy it. We talk about it.

[Ex Fisher]

It.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Comedy Central]

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[Jon Favreau]

Plus I have to say, and obviously there needs to be a lot more research into this, but I'm a political nerd. And so one of my first thoughts watching this is, you know, there's been all this discussion after the last election, Gen Z swings to the right to Trump. But some people have started to look at the data and older Gen Z pretty much stayed the same politically. And it was the kids who went through the pandemic that swung to the right the most. And you know, there's a lot of theories for this and people like, well, were they on TikTok looking at like propaganda from the right, stuff like that. And I'm sure there's some of that. But I also think just the act of being on the phone all the time in the pandemic and what that does to relationships and the behavior it incentivizes is the kind of behavior and values that matches up with more, more MAGA than I think traditional forms of politics. Like I can kind of see it that they, there's so little trust in the system. They want, kind of want to tear things down. Things seem funny and silly and it sort of levels their experience in life. I don't know if you've ever, if you've thought about the political angle in any of this or if they've talked to you about this.

[Lauren Greenfield]

I mean, I don't see it, I don't see it like one, that one direction like going right. What I see is the propaganda side. Like I think my youngest son gets his news from TikTok and I think whether it's pro Palestinian protest or Black Lives Matter, which they were influenced by during the pandemic, or right wing politics like Charlie Kirk or Andrew Tate. I think that there's a huge impact. And so I think that, that the danger with this generation and the opportunity for the opportunist politicians is that they're so manipulatable.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And it does, I guess it flattens politics in a way and, and I feel like increases polarization.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

So that what you lose is the subtlety and nuance of political discussions and, and you know, taking positions on certain issues and everything becomes very black and white.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah. And I think one of the things that is very hopeful in the show, so please watch to episode five because it kind of gets harder and harder and then there's hope at the end. But one of the things that happens at the end is the young people who when they're in their group discussions don't have phones, say how incredible it was to actually connect Face to face. And I think for somebody from my generation, it's like, isn't that just the easiest thing in the world? But no, it's actually not an obvious or common thing for this generation to have that much opportunity to really connect seriously, vulnerably, without phones. That there's so. I mean, you go to scenes of parties or social occasions and it's like parallel play for young kids. They're all separately on their phone.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And in school too. There's that scene in the classroom in the first episode. And I'm like, how is anyone focusing on. On school or what the teacher's saying? Because they're like talking to friends, they're playing a game, they're doing a million different things. Like the pace of life just felt so. Which is you captured so well. Just feels so frenetic in a way that's like dizzying.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah. And when they slow down and talk to each other and have discussions, it was also really powerful because they saw other kids going through the same problems or issues, pressures that they were sometimes for the first time. I think that's the exciting thing about young people watching the show is they also put themselves in their shoes and there's kind of somebody for everybody and see that somebody else is going through the same thing. So, like the conversation you had with your wife, it's been really interesting. Is a very different reaction from parents than from young people. Like, parents are like, it's terrifying. I know I should watch. I'm scared to watch. But like, actually, yes, watch, because it's the way you find out what's going on with your kids.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Young people don't find it terrifying at all. Like, they feel seen, they feel relieved because it's like a documentation of the kind of problem with no name. Like what's been hiding in plain sight for them. All these things they're feeling that they haven't had a place to process.

[Jon Favreau]

I was struck by how self aware they all are. And just they seem introspective and wise beyond their years. They know that social media is bad for them. They say it explicitly. But crucially, awareness isn't enough and they still can't quit. And then the line that has really stuck with me is, I think Jonathan might say this, that social media is both a lifeline and a loaded gun. And we talk all the time about phone addiction and screen addiction and social media addiction on the show. But I can't think of too many addictive substances that could be objectively described as also lifelines. Maybe some Medications that are abused, I guess. How do you see that dynamic play out with these kids? That it is the lifeline versus loaded gun thing.

[Lauren Greenfield]

That's really interesting that you say that because a lot of my work has been about addiction in some ways and my first film was about eating disorders and that's kind of the same. Oh, I guess, yeah, that's lifeline Lifeline. And I think that, yeah, I mean they need it to communicate. It's the way people communicate now. Kids need to be social like teenagers. That's a big part of it. And yet there's so many dangerous things. And I think that's why I don't see it as a binary. Like people are like, should we have it, should we not have it? Like no, we have to have it. But it doesn't have to be this way. Like it is this way because the tech companies architect it to be exactly what it is. Like it's engineered by humans for maximum engagement. And we saw from the TikTok research that was leaked that they know exactly the same with meta, they know exactly what's going on. And so there's no surprise there. And yet we're allowing kids to have access to load of guns. For me, it's kind of like the cigarette research. Like I hope that now that we see this connection between social media and suicidal ideation and eating disorders and these harms that parents and young people and even the brands that advertise will demand a kind of cleaner, safer space.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think that we can get these social media platforms to be more, more on the lifeline side and less on the loaded gun side? Or is it just, I mean, cause we can't get rid of them? But do you think that there are algorithmic changes or structural changes that we could make that would make these healthier?

[Lauren Greenfield]

Absolutely. We've already seen empirically a lot of algorithmic changes since TikTok stopped and started again. Since we have a new president, we've already seen the dampening of kind of political protest and critical posts and that just shows, you know, how we can have any kind of space we want. Chinese TikTok is completely different. It's educational for young people, it's propaganda. I mean, and we know from advertising and the way brands use it that it's completely targetable too. So I mean, in Australia they're age gating under 16. I think that's a great idea. People are always like, you know, how can they know what age it is? You know, kids are. But like, I think it was Scott Galloway who said, like, they know everything about you. Like, they probably could figure that out.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

So I definitely think it's possible. It's the Wild west compared to other media. Other media is all regulated. And, you know, even parents and young people are embracing the show, even though there's a lot of hard content on it that 10 years ago, I think we would be really nervous about showing teenagers, but I think they're seeing it anyway. Everybody knows they are seeing it anyway. Starting with pornography at a really young.

[Jon Favreau]

Age, that was terrifying.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And there's no context.

[Jon Favreau]

So at least third grade, as young as possible.

[Lauren Greenfield]

At least with the show, they have context and to deconstruct it and through peers in their own voices, like saying what kind of processing it in real time. And we've also made an educational curriculum with the Annenberg foundation. It's on learner.org There's a parent guide. There's a way for teachers to use it in school for media literacy. So the exposure is out of the bag. Like, there's no way for parents to protect their kids from the kind of imagery and content that, you know, if they're in this generation, they've already seen. And so I think we need to help them process and navigate it now.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think TikTok is the. Is the worst of the social media apps? I think TikTok or the most addictive, maybe.

[Lauren Greenfield]

TikTok is very addictive. I think Instagram and Snapchat are also used really frequently. I think they all talk about how, like TikTok, you go on, you know, for 15 minutes and two hours, three hours passed, and you don't know what happened to the time.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

So I think just in terms of the time suck, during a time of life where they need to be concentrating on learning and making friends, and there's so much that needs to happen to the brain and preparation for life during teenage years. The time suck is really dangerous. But then you also have the 247 comparison culture, which is really devastating for teenagers, where, you know, whether it's body or college or, you know, popularity, fomo, everybody's just constantly comparing themselves to not just the kids they know or the kids in their school, but everyone in the world and some who are not even real.

[Jon Favreau]

What do you think of the. The moral panic argument? And you see that out there where people say, oh, there's always. People have always been afraid that we're, you know, the kids aren't okay and something's happening with the kids and whether it's TV or video games and it ends up being this moral panic and then, and then we, we work it out.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Well, I guess I kind of agree with the moral panic and that we have something very dangerous and you know, we see it empirically with the numbers. Like in my show I was shocked by like when I did my pre interviews, I didn't talk to them about suicide or suicidal ideation at all. And by the we finished, I think a fourth of the group talked about having tried committing suicide or having suicidal thoughts. Eating disorders was also like that. When I did my film about eating disorders in 2007, one in seven girls had an eating disorder or disordered eating. When we did this, one girl said to me in the beginning, half my friends have an eating disorder from TikTok and the other half are lying. So like the triggers are just so ubiquitous and the issues are so common. And that lines up with also the research by people like Jonathan Haidt, by academics, and it even lines up with the social media company's own research. Yeah, so I think there's no question about that. I think the good news is like you said, the kids are so smart, like they're so aware, so aware. They give us a roadmap for how to fix it. Actually like you said, awareness doesn't make you invulnerable to it. I think that's what is powerful in the show is we hear from the horse's mouth, like we hear them saying, deconstructing what's happening to them, but you also witness it in real time, like them going through the problems. So they're both experts and subjects in a really strange way and an interesting way. But I think it's like a call out to the adult culture. Like we need you to do something about this because blaming young people, it's kind of like blaming the addict for an opiate addiction.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and you mentioned the adult culture and we're all addicted too. I mean I do an entire show, this show about social media addiction and I am the most online and I know I, I've read all the research, I talked to all these experts, talked to Jonathan, talked to everyone and it's just, it's really hard. Is that partly why you think parents have had such a tough time getting, dealing with this issue with their kids or what has been the challenge for parents to actually know this is going on and deal with it?

[Lauren Greenfield]

Honestly, I've been really surprised by parents who are so scared to find out what's going on in their kids life. Like Sydney's mom says it, she's like when Sydney's doing all these really provocative videos, Sydney's mom is like, I don't know if I want to know what's on her TikTok. I feel like some parents are afraid to watch the show for the same reason. And it's really important and it's really important for your kids. Because I've had so many teenagers and 20 somethings say my mom or my dad didn't know what was going on with my life until we watch this show together. And I'm so happy they do. It's like a huge burden to have this whole life that you can't really explain to your parents. And that's making you feel like all kinds of ways. And even though sometimes it's hard to get it out of kids, I find like when they know, you know, they want to have those conversations. I learned so much about my own kids and I think that it's a huge relief. Like I showed it up in San Francisco to a big tech audience and there was a tech reporter from the Washington Post who I saw afterwards with his 23 year old daughter. He said, we just showed episode one. He said, we're going home, we're gonna watch the rest. Should we watch them together? I said, yeah, except maybe episode four, the sex episode. You might wanna watch a part. And his daughter had heard me talking about some of what was in it in the Q and A. And she said, no, I heard you talk about the BDSM trend among teenagers. I want my dad to see this because I went through it, it was terrible and I want him to know about it. And his eyes were just like bugging out of his head also.

[Jon Favreau]

What a mature thing to say. And brave to say that. You want to watch that with your dad.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah, I mean, when I first showed it to Sidney, cause I showed it to most of the kids like one on one before it came out, if they were around and able. And so with Sydney, and we watched it together and she said she called her mom and her mom was like, how do I look? I remember not wearing makeup and she's like, mom, it's about body image.

[Jon Favreau]

None of us, none of us are immune. That's the whole, you know.

[Lauren Greenfield]

But I hope even adults without kids, I think there's something for them too. Because young people are so transparent about a lot of the pressures that we all feel. And so I think, you know, like you said, the parents are also posting, maybe on Facebook instead of Instagram, but they're also posting themselves, their kids, their best lives.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep. In the last few years, a lot of schools and cities, including right here in la, have started just taking action and banning phones in the classroom. Have you gotten a sense of the reaction to that move from kids and parents and educators?

[Lauren Greenfield]

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's not in the last few years. Cause it wasn't happening when we were filming, which was 21:22. But starting this fall, it started happening and it's been great. Like, Cooper, who's in the show, said she went to Brentwood School and she said, now they don't allow phones. And her youngest sister was in a panic about that when it first happened. And she said now her little sister loves it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And that's what happened in our group discussions. Like, at first it's like, wait, I don't have my phone. But then they really loved it and they talked about that. And I think when everybody doesn't have it, it creates new ways of communicating. And actually what they said at the end, they brought up the. They said, we all want to be off phones. It's so great to talk to each other. But they brought up the new existential question, do you exist if you're not on social media? And they were like, no, People forget about you. So that's the catch 22 is like, if you're the only one off of is kind of too punitive because it takes you outside of social life, which is hard for a teenager. But if it's a whole friend group or a whole school or the whole city says we're not going to have them at school, that's great. And you know, I think even for home parents, hopefully when they see the show, will realize that they need to monitor their kids more. I mean, once I got into it, I started demanding that my son show me his hour summary every week. Like, he wouldn't screen record like the kids do on the phone. He wouldn't share the details. Like that was his private life he felt like. Which it's. It's not. I'm not saying it was like the best at my house. I think you do need to know what's going on. But at least I could see the hours and we could have conversations about that. And he agreed with me, like, you know, that when it. When it got out of hand.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I mean, to your point about how we can't just get rid of it. Right. It's here. This is how kids connect. But having moments, hours of the day, spaces where kids are just talking to each other, forget about just kids, all of us Right. Like, there's just having moments where there is no phone, there is no distraction, and people are just interacting face to face. It sounds so simple, but I do think just. Just carving out some of that time to do that would be a huge difference.

[Lauren Greenfield]

It's so important. I mean, I think in the. In the TikTok research that got leaked, one of the people who worked at TikTok said that the thing about it is it's so addictive that it stops kids from eating, sleeping, moving around the room and making eye contact with each other.

[Jon Favreau]

It's horrible. It's horrible.

[Lauren Greenfield]

And one of the, you know, you asked about after the pandemic, the other side of it, besides just using it more, was the increase in social anxiety to the point where even though parents were really excited for kids to go back to school, a lot of kids were nervous about going back to school. And like you see in the show, Ivy ends up leaving school and doing homeschool because she had so much social anxiety. And at Pali, one of the schools where we filmed, one girl said to me that the wi fi is spotty at school, but she'll walk down the hallway looking at her phone even if she doesn't have connection, so she doesn't have to make eye contact with other kids.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, boy. What do you hope people take away? What's the one thing you hope people take away from this?

[Lauren Greenfield]

I hope they take away empathy for what teenagers are going through. I think there's a tendency to, like, blame all this generation. Like they're just on too much. I hope they gain understanding. I think that's really important that they actually take the time to see what's going on. And then I think there are a lot of things that we can do. I think we can ask for more safer spaces from the tech companies. I used to think government regulation would be good, but now it's so politicized.

[Jon Favreau]

I know.

[Lauren Greenfield]

I think that, yeah, taking time off phones, not having it in schools, having spaces to, like, discuss what's going on and talking. I think watching the show together, talking to your kids about what's going on is really important.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, it's. It's fantastic. I. I will be watching all the rest of the episodes, hopefully with my wife and Lauren Greenfield. Thank you so much. It's social studies, everyone. Go check it out. It's on Hulu and fx. And. And thanks for stopping by.

[Lauren Greenfield]

Thanks so much.

[Jon Favreau]

As always. If you have comments, questions, or guest ideas, email us@offline crooked.com and if you're as opinionated as we are. Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform platform for ad free episodes of Offline in Pod Save America exclusive content and more. Join our friends at the pod subscription [e-mail] friends and if you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, Tik Tok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau along with Max Fisher. The show is produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Ilic Frank. The show is mixed and sound edited by Dan Ferrell. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Segland. Delon Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrienne Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the RA Writers Guild of America east.

[Comedy Central]

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[Jon Favreau]

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