← Offline with Jon Favreau
Offline with Jon Favreau
QAnon Reacts to Epstein, Laura Loomer Gets Loomered, and Jon Gets Caught Up in the Syndey Sweeney Discourse
00:47:24
As the Trump administration manufactures conspiracies to distract from the president’s friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, some on the right are blaming the deep state while others are finally calling foul. The Bulwark’s Will Sommer has been covering the far right conspiracy beat for years, and he joins the show to break down the Epstein drama, run through the kooks in charge of federal law enforcement, and compare the unhinged agendas of MAGA's two misinformation queens, Laura Loomer and Candace Owens. One thing’s for sure: never before have so many online lunatics occupied positions of such power and influence.
Loading summary
Transcript109 lines
- [00:01]
Jon Favreau
Offline is brought to you by Mint Mobile. You know what doesn't belong in your epic summer plans? Getting burned by your old wireless bill. While you're planning beach trips, barbecues and three day weekends, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. That's why you should make the switch to Mint Mobile. With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you you'll be chilling. Literally and financially. But maybe not literally, but definitely financially. Say bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. Crooked zone Nina made the switch to Mint Mobile. She says she never has to worry about unexpected charges on her bill each month. Just one low price, reliable service and excellent data speed. And we can attest to that because she's. She always zooms into our pod Save America meetings.
- [01:11]
Will Sommer
Still clear room like a hologram.
- [01:14]
Jon Favreau
Great. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com offline. That's mint mobile.com/offline. Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra cement Mobile for details.
- [01:39]
Will Sommer
This Russia Gate saga we've been seeing from the administration where every day or two they're like we okay, we found the real smoking gun. Okay, the last one was a Russian plant. We don't, you know, but. But this is really going to me and Obama goes to prison. I think that has given right wing media stuff to talk about for a little while. But I mean unless they charge people, it's kind of creating a new expectation that they're not gonna deliver on. Candace Owens had a episode with Mile Yiannopoulos yesterday where they dressed all in black as a funeral for maga. You know, I mean they're just, they're rending their garments over like how they've lost faith with Trump because of Epstein.
- [02:20]
Jon Favreau
I'm Jon Favreau, and joining me today is the Bulwarks. Will Sommer. Will, welcome to the show.
- [02:25]
Will Sommer
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [02:27]
Jon Favreau
So you've been on the right wing conspiracy beat for a long time. You are now writing an excellent twice weekly newsletter aptly named False Flag at the Bulwark, where you've been doing a lot of great reporting on the Epstein drama. The kooks in charge of federal law enforcement, Laura Loomer, Candace Owens, all of whom have been making news lately, unfortunately. So I wanted to have you on to talk about how to make sense of the extremely online lunatics who now seem to occupy positions of great power and influence. But before we wade into the fever swamps, how'd you come to this beat? What got you interested in the world of right wing conspiracies?
- [03:05]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so they are, basically. I was a teen Republican long ago, and I just loved consuming the right wing media, getting into things like Bill O'Reilly and, and this was when Ben Shapiro was just getting started. His big thing was that he was a college student who was still a virgin. That was kind of his kind of claim to fame. And then, you know, with the war in Iraq, things like that, my politics changed, but I still just had this huge appetite for right wing media. And it's so, I mean, so interesting to follow. I mean, there's constantly feuds and kind of the ideological fluctuations are always interesting. And so then I started writing about it in 2016, basically after my girlfriend was like, you know, how about instead of bugging me about this, you start writing about it? And I did. And of course, ever since, it's unfortunately become more and more relevant.
- [03:51]
Jon Favreau
As good a reason as any to start doing something to stop bugging your significant other. All right, let's start, of course, with Jeffrey Epstein. It is now the one month anniversary of the Justice Department's announcement that they would not be releasing the Epstein files. Happy anniversary to you. The Trump administration is celebrating by holding a meeting tonight, Wednesday night, at J.D. vance's residence to strategize about how to make the Epstein scandal go away. It includes all the officials you typically see in a political strategy session. The Attorney General, the deputy Attorney General, the FBI director. According to cnn, they'll be deciding whether to release the interview that Trump's former defense attorney, now Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, conducted with Ghislaine Maxwell, who the administration has transferred with no explanation from federal prison to a cushy minimum security facility known as Club Fed. She's of course also seeking a pardon from Trump, who hasn't ruled it out. There's also reports now that she didn't say that Trump did anything bad around Epstein. Surprise, surprise. You have been deep in the Epstein beat for the last month. What's the vibe in MAGA world right now? Are people cool with the kid glove treatment for the convicted child sex trafficker who was Epstein's main accomplice? Or how are people thinking about this?
- [05:12]
Will Sommer
Yeah, you know, I think the administration has bought itself a little time here. I mean, it's the summer, you know, I think the House closing early to avoid this vote on releasing the files helped. But ultimately, I think if the idea is that it's headed towards Ghislaine exonerating Trump and then getting some preferential treatment. You mentioned her prison switch, which is so crazy and basically unprecedented if ultimately that's headed towards a partner or cooperation deal. I don't think the MAGA base, and I think especially these kind of like Rogan esque independents, I don't think they're going to buy it. I mean, I think people understand that Ghislaine is going to say whatever she can to get out of prison. And just what I'm seeing in terms of Internet comments, things like that, people aren't really convinced.
- [05:56]
Jon Favreau
Is there a split between a lot of the MAGA influencers on this and right wing media? Because like I see Newsmax sort of flirting with becoming pro Ghislaine Maxwell. Maybe she was just a victim. You got the people like your Benny Johnsons and people like that who seem more willing to carry the administration's water here on whatever they say about Ghislaine Maxwell. And then of course, I do think, you know, the Joe Rogans, the flagrant podcast, all those folks, they seem to be seeing right through this. But, but are there different factions here?
- [06:29]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple slices. I mean, on one hand you have Newsmax, which has really been out on the, like, free Ghislaine Ghislaine rehabilitation. I mean, it's sick, but it's true. Part of that, I think, is that Alex Acosta, the former federal prosecutor and labor secretary who was involved in Epstein's deal, he's on the board of Newsmax. So I think they have a good reason to act like, oh, Epstein wasn't that big a deal. Then you have people like Megyn Kelly, Benny Johnson, who I think are going to basically carry the administration's water, whatever it is, but they still need to like, like if they pardon Ghislaine or something else big happens, they can't totally ignore it. I think the, this kind of, this Russiagate saga we've been seeing from the administration where every day or two they're like, okay, we found the real smoking gun. Okay, the last one was a Russian plant. We know, you know, but this is really going to me. And Obama goes to prison. I think that has given right wing media stuff to talk about for a little while. But I mean, unless they charge people, it's kind of creating a new expectation that they're not gonna deliver on. And then finally you have people like Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens. I mean, this is on my mind. Candace Owens had an episode with Mile Yiannopoulos yesterday where they dressed all in black as a funeral for maga. You know, I mean, they're just, they're rending their garments over like how they've lost faith with Trump because of Epstein.
- [07:46]
Jon Favreau
Well, that's kind of fun. I do like that. Let's talk about the Republicans in the House. The Oversight Committee has subpoenaed a whole bunch of people surrounding the Epstein scandal, including Bill and Hillary Clinton as part of the probe. Obviously, it's a concerted effort to make this a Democratic scandal and not a Trump scandal. Do you think people will buy that? I mean, obviously there is a desire among the MAGA faithful for this to just become a Democratic scandal again, which is what they originally thought it was. And you think there's going to be some, some motivated reasoning there. Is this going to work?
- [08:20]
Will Sommer
You're right on. I mean, they're definitely trying to say, well, Epstein, that's the big Bill Clinton thing. They're kind of trying to go back to the status quo before the DOJ memo. Something else I thought is interesting here is they, they, they've subpoenaed all of these former attorneys general who are now, because of the, the party's kind of MAGA tilt, even Republican attorneys general are seen as like lib coded now. And so you have like, they're like, we're going to get Bill Barr, we're going to get Alberto Gonzalez. I saw someone was saying, some big right wing pundit was saying, you know, the key here is Jeff Sessions, who of course they all hate. And so he's on the subpoena list too. But again, I mean, I'm a little reluctant to say that this is going to work. I mean, I think on one hand, I think, let's say Bill Clinton just gets in there and says, oh yeah, you know, it was this big scheme and I love going to Epstein island or whatever. I mean, I think that's just going to raise more questions ultimately. Like the, the administration here, I think is in a real bind.
- [09:14]
Jon Favreau
And, and no Alex Acosta on the list. I see. I guess he's busy on the board of Newsmax.
- [09:19]
Will Sommer
Isn't that curious? Yeah. Alex Acosta, who is basically the whole source this kind of thirdhand reported remark that Epstein was intelligence and that's why they had to go lightly on him, that he supposedly said to sort of exonerate himself. I mean, that's a question they could ask him about. And yet that's a guy who apparently is not going to be called.
- [09:38]
Jon Favreau
Trump has been waging what you've called a monumental distraction campaign over the last few weeks to distract attention away from his Epstein issues. Rosie o' Donnell should lose her citizenship. Sydney Sweeney's hot. Taylor Swift's not commander should become the Redskins again. He's hitting all the culture war erogenous zones. But you mentioned this. The most absurd, convoluted, and I think now alarming distraction is this attempt to relitigate the decade old investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, which, you know, as absurd as I thought it was at first, has now resulted in the Department of Justice ordering a grand jury criminal investigation into the repeatedly debunked conspiracy theory that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama concocted the entire Russia investigation to hurt Trump. What do you make of the escalation by the doj? Because, you know, there's one way to read it. As you know, Tulsi was trying to get back into Trump's good graces. So she declassified the intelligence and did that press conference and you know, said that there was crime of the century, Obama should go to jail. And then she threw it in Pam Bondi's lap. And now Pam Bondi has to do something to make sure that Trump knows that she's carrying water form. But like, do you think this is gonna go anywhere or do you think everyone's just sorta trying to act the part here?
- [11:06]
Will Sommer
Yeah, you're right. I mean it really shouldn't go anywhere. On one hand, it is so farcical. I mean, Kathy Young at the Bulwark has done a lot of writing about how there's this sort of smoking gun email that in fact is probably a Russian fake, that even the report that they're all excited about that supposedly proves the conspiracy theory says, ah, this is probably a Russian fake. And so, and yet, you know, there's a Lot of pressure on Pam Bondi now. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard kind of got out of the hot seat by saying, oh, my gosh. Like, look. Look at all this Russiagate stuff we found. I'm just gonna hand it off to Pam, and it's on her now. And so ultimately, I mean, I don't think she wants to lose her job. And so she's. She's impaneled this grand jury and now is trying to, you know, to get at least some amount of charges. I mean, the whole thing is just really crazy. I think it's not sinking in so much with the base because, again, it is really convoluted. I mean, this stuff is like these classic characters. Bruce and Nelly Orr, Peter Strzok. I mean, this is like a decade old now. And now people are being asked, oh, we gotta meet the cast of the George Soros Open Societies Foundation. All of these different things that people are being expected to understand. I mean, the legal thing here, I think, is really crazy. So, because this goes back so far, a lot of the statute of limitations, even if there were crimes here, have expired. But John Solomon, who's this kind of quasi reporter who parrots a lot of. Puts out a lot of administration trial balloons.
- [12:27]
Jon Favreau
Quasi is right. Yeah.
- [12:28]
Will Sommer
Yeah. That's being generous. I think that he claims that there's this investigation called the grand conspiracy that somehow would link the Jack Smith files at Mar A Lago investigation all the way back to, like, 2015 and the Steele dossier and everything that they can get everyone on a RICO charge. And because of the raid at Mar A Lago, they. The grand jury can be in Florida, which would presumably be more open to charging people. And so, I mean, it seems like really convoluted and unlikely to work, but that's. That's what they're up to.
- [13:00]
Jon Favreau
I've. I've seen a few people do this. I've seen Tulsi say this too. Like, what the hell does the. The raid at Mar A Lago over Trump stealing classified documents have anything at all to do with even their craziest conspiracies about the Russia investigation? I just. I can't figure that out. Except for clearly they want to try this in Florida.
- [13:22]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, it was like being mean to Mr. Trump is the crime. And, you know, they're sweeping whatever they can into that. And you're right. I mean, they are obsessed with getting the jurisdiction out of D.C. because obviously that's a more liberal grand jury pool.
- [13:35]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. I mean, look, my theory on this As I saw it go to the grand jury is it is not difficult to get an indictment from a grand jury, partly because there is no judge present, there's no defense attorney. It's just the prosecutor talking to the grand jury, doing, you know, presenting evidence and then also framing what the law is. So usually grand jury indictments do get returned, and I could see them wanting an indictment headline before some judge laughed it out of the courtroom, which is probably what would happen in almost every courtroom in the country, because for a million different reasons, like statute of limitations being one of them, but also the fact that doesn't seem like there are any laws being broken even with what they alleged. But I did wonder about that.
- [14:20]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And I mean, what's the chain of custody for this evidence? It's from the Russian government. I mean, like. Like, how could you possibly say, well, we have this tranche that we. We got somehow from the KGB or the gru. I mean, how are you going to bring that up in court?
- [14:34]
Jon Favreau
And again, what did. Forget about Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, what you did. What did, like, John Brennan, Clapper, Comey, anyone else do with that information that is somehow against the law, other than surface it somewhere? It's fucking crazy. You sound crazy talking about it when you try to explain it to someone. Because I have tried to do this a few times, and you get like, two sentences in and people are like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
- [15:00]
Will Sommer
Well, yeah, I mean, it makes people tune out, but it is, like, a very real thing. I mean, that's the challenge. I mean, this is kind of the pretext that's being constructed here. And at minimum, to get out of Epstein and. And, you know, also potentially for these prosecutions.
- [15:18]
Jon Favreau
Offline is brought to you by hims. As Lovett always says, ED is more common than you think.
- [15:24]
Will Sommer
That's my. That's my famous catchphrase. The audience applauds when I say it. They're so. They're, like, waiting for me to say it. When's he going to say it? Like, Kramer coming in.
- [15:33]
Jon Favreau
And now it's simpler to treat than ever. Through hims, you can connect online with a licensed provider to access personalized treatment options discreetly and on your terms. Through HIMS, you can access personalized prescription treatment options for ED.
- [15:45]
Will Sommer
All things are possible through HIMS, like.
- [15:47]
Jon Favreau
Hard mints and SexRx, plus climax control.
- [15:51]
Will Sommer
Oh, my God.
- [15:51]
Jon Favreau
If prescribed. Wow. Yeah. That's Tommy's favorite. HIMS offers access to ED treatment options ranging from Hard mints to trust to generics that cost 95% less than brand names if prescribed. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself. HIMSS brings expert care straight to you with 100 online access to personalized treatments that put your goals first. This isn't one size fits all care that forgets who in the waiting room. It's your health and goals put first with real medical providers making sure you get what you need to get results. Think of HIMS as your digital front door that gets you back to your old self with simple 100% online access.
- [16:29]
Will Sommer
When I think of hims, I think of the back door.
- [16:31]
Jon Favreau
I was hoping you'd say that. With simple 100% online access to trusted treatments for ED and more, all in one place. To get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss and more, visit hims.com offline that's hims.com offline for your free online visit hims.com offline. Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Provide prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information.
- [17:04]
Will Sommer
Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat. Or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha Spicy but not too spicy.
- [17:25]
Jon Favreau
So I don't want to leave our Epstein discussion without talking about QAnon. We're which is a particular area of expertise for you, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you can probably summarize the two main tenets of QAnon as 1 the government is controlled by an elite cabal of pedophiles and two Donald Trump will expose and then arrest those pedophiles. Given that, how are QAnon believers taking the news that Trump is in the Epstein files that his Justice Department is refusing to release?
- [17:55]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, they've had to construct already even before this. They had to construct elaborate rationalizations for why is Trump on video palling around with Jeffrey Epstein? Why is he giving quotes about how Jeffrey likes his women on the younger side, like, what's up with this? And they said at the time while he was infiltrating the Epstein organization or he was going undercover with JFK Jr. Or whoever. But it's been tough for them. I think they're saying that the deep state is at it again Obviously, they've really latched onto this idea that Obama and Comey planted fake documents in the files, and so now we can't trust the files anymore. I mean, Benny Johnson has laid this out pretty well. So it's like, you can't trust the files because who knows what Obama was up to? So now we can only trust Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [18:42]
Jon Favreau
Are any QAnon adherents starting to think maybe, maybe this isn't so right? Maybe this conspiracy is a bit off now that Donald Trump is in the Epstein files and they're not releasing it? Like, are there any cracks in the facade here?
- [18:59]
Will Sommer
Not that I've seen. I mean, they really. Trump is their sort of messianic figure. I mean, so I think they're going down with the ship in terms of. I mean, it is truly crazy to think about that they built this whole worldview around Trump taking on the pedophile cabal, and then, at minimum, he's writing kind of loving letters with. With little lewd illustrations to the head of the cabal.
- [19:18]
Jon Favreau
The call is coming from inside the house. You wrote recently that Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino, a fan of mental health days, threw the QAnon land a bit of a bone. Can you talk to us about what he tweeted and how QAnon followers took his words?
- [19:34]
Will Sommer
So he threw out this. He's clearly, you know, he was gonna quit the FBI in a fit. He was so mad about how the Epstein rollout went, but now he's back on the team, and so he sends this tweet. He's constantly tweeting. And this is kind of a key thing to understand about Dan Bongino. Beginning. He has been under this pressure and I think often sort of pressure that he imagines from the right. That's like, we gotta get, you know, all of these passions of theirs. Who took cocaine to the White House under Biden? Who was the January 6th pipe bomber? Was it an FBI false flag, whatever? And they haven't figured it out. And certainly, you know, we haven't arrested any of the people they wanted arrested. And so he's always tweeting like, this is not a vacation to me. I'm working so hard. And in this case, he's hyping up the Tulsi Gabbard stuff. And so he tweets, you know, what I've seen has shocked me to my core. I'll never be the same again. So he's trying to move on from Epstein. When people see that, I mean, the reaction was like, surely this is not about some intel report that we don't think was fairly handled or was rushed. This has to be about QAnon. This has to be about Epstein still. So that was sort of more fuel for the fire. People were saying Bongino, you know, it's like his hair is going to go white. He's been so shocked by the truth of how the world is run.
- [20:43]
Jon Favreau
I saw that tweet and it was around the Russiagate stuff. And so around when, like, remember, like, Kash Patel found a bunch of documents in the trash, basically.
- [20:52]
Will Sommer
Oh, my God, the burn bags.
- [20:53]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. And I was like, is Bongino tweeting that about the fucking papers and the burn bag? Because they didn't really. I mean, even if you buy into the conspiracy, that that shouldn't shock you to your core.
- [21:04]
Will Sommer
The burn bags are such a classic Cash Patel operation. Back even back when he was a congressional staffer, he always, for Nunes, he always has like, there's like a document that has to be uncovered. It was like the release the memo campaign.
- [21:14]
Jon Favreau
Oh, yeah.
- [21:15]
Will Sommer
And suddenly were told the burn bags were. They were trying to destroy the files. But really the index here that supposedly contains the smoking gun email, I mean, it seems like that was pretty widespread in the government. I mean, it was classified. So this idea that, you know, oh, we just stopped the FBI from destroying these files seems a little suspicious.
- [21:32]
Jon Favreau
Well, it's also. It's like it was John Durham that conducted the investigation, who was appointed by Bill Barr, Trump's Attorney General. John Durham spent a long time trying to prove some of these Russia hoax conspiracies on the right came up short, but then, like, stashed away the real evidence in a burn bags and hope that after four years of Biden, Trump would return and Cash Patel would find it in the. In a back room somewhere. Like, I just. It's wild. I don't know how you even connect the string.
- [22:01]
Will Sommer
We need a little more narrative on this story. I do. Like, it's kind of being thrown out, but, like, what's the deal with Cash? You know, it was late night, he was looking for the vending machine. What happened?
- [22:09]
Jon Favreau
Like, tell a story about how this was uncovered and the motivation behind it ending up there in the first place. Just at least come up with something more of my conversation with Will Sommer after the break. But first, in case you missed it, the folks here at Crooked Media and Vote Save America are hosting our first ever crooked con. Crooked con is a chance to join America's smartest organizers and least annoying politicians to strategize, debate and commiserate about where we go from here. Hopefully up will be in Washington D.C. november 6th and 7th. It's going to be great, starting with Pod Save America Live at the Warner theater on Thursday, November 6th. Then on Friday, November 7th, we'll be at the Wharf, joined by some of the most influential names in politics for a full day of conversations, workshops and live pods as we all figure out how to build the big pro democracy movement. We need to defeat rising authoritarianism before or maybe after it's too late. This is going to be great. We've been talking about this for a long time. We got some really great guests coming already, some really good ideas for conversations to dig into. Really smart organizers there and we're going to have a lot of fun. So check it out. Tickets are on sale now. Head to cricketcon.com for tickets, lineup announcements and more. That's C R O O K E d c o n.com and we have a discount code that you can use to buy your November 7th ticket early. It's freedom and content. One word. All caps. Freedom and content. Discount tickets are limited, so act fast. Offline is brought to you by Zebiotics Pre Alcohol. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, you don't bounce back the next day like you used to. You got to make a choice. Either have a great night or a great next day. This was me until I found Pre Alcohol Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough morning mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you will feel your best tomorrow. Love love love. Zbiotics.
- [24:21]
Will Sommer
Huge fans.
- [24:22]
Jon Favreau
I have them hidden all over the house, in my bag, anywhere. Because the toughest thing, as I always say, is remembering to take. Got to remember it. But once you do take the biotics.
- [24:32]
Will Sommer
Things are going your way.
- [24:33]
Jon Favreau
You can have a few drinks and you will have no rough mornings.
- [24:36]
Will Sommer
No rough morning at all.
- [24:37]
Jon Favreau
No rough mornings. The final days of summer are here for you to enjoy. Whether you're heading to the beach, camping in the woods, or squeezing in one last vacation road trip, don't forget to bring Zebiotics pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink Drink a pre alcohol before drinking and enjoy every day of summer to the fullest. Go to zebiotics.com offline to learn more and get 50% off your first order when you use Offline at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked.
- [25:02]
Will Sommer
No one asks you a single question.
- [25:03]
Jon Favreau
Not one. Remember to head to zebiotics.com offline and use the code offline at checkout for 15% off.
- [25:10]
Will Sommer
With leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership, Comcast business helps turn today's enterprises into engines of modern business powering the engine of modern business powering possibilities. Restrictions apply.
- [25:31]
Jon Favreau
All right, let's turn to one of the President's most trusted advisors, a real voice of reason in MAGA world, Laura Loomer. So Trump said this week he was asked again about her. He said he really likes her. And her job as an informal outside advisor, as far as I can tell, seems to be getting administration officials fired who she decides aren't sufficiently loyal to Trump or the MAGA movement. So far, she's taken credit for at least 16 firings, including the general counsel of the NSA and recently an academic chair at West Point. On Monday, you reported that Loomer's own fans may be starting to turn on her over the resignation of a top FDA official who was beloved by RFK Junior's Maha. Folks, what is this story all about?
- [26:20]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so this is interesting. I mean, so for months now, Laura Loomer has had this really outsized control in Washington. I called it lumocracy. You know, I mean, she can just go in and take out whoever she wants. And this is quite a turn, right? I mean, this is a few years ago she was locking herself up to Twitter headquarters. I mean, she was a laughingstock even on the right. But because people, either she's digging it up or some mix of people feeding it to her. She finds, you know, some Trump appointee with a podcast interview eight years ago saying, I don't know about Donald Trump gets him out. But at the same time, she seems to get onto these policy issues that she's expressed no interest in before in a way that her interests often align with big business in ways that I would describe as curious. For example, she got very passionate about Venezuelan oil sanctions in a way that I believe Chevron. She was advocating for basically the Chevron position to keep working with Venezuela. Not typically what you would expect a right wing influencer to get into. She's been very critical of this Puerto Rican financial control board that Trump just purged in a way that, you know, why does she care about this all of a sudden? And then there's the case of Vinay Prasad, who is in charge of sort of a RFK junior acolyte, in charge of a lot of the medicine and vaccine approvals at the fda. And she, I would say, like, you know, I don't think this guy's politics and mine really align, but she seems to have really done him dirty here. She had this, there was this clip where he's saying, like, you know, these crazy liberals, they probably have, you know, they're acting like, I've got a Trump voodoo doll and I put pins in it. So she cuts that and she goes, my God, this man has a Trump voodoo doll. We've got to get him out.
- [27:56]
Jon Favreau
Wait, so there were allegations that when she did that, some people on the right alleged that she was doing the bidding of drug companies.
- [28:05]
Will Sommer
Yeah. So there's this drug company called Sarepta that has kind of a long running feud with Prasad over, over this muscular dystrophy drug they have. And basically even before he was in the fda, he was like, this drug should not have been approved. This drug is dangerous. And then in July, the FDA said, well, two people taking this drug have died, and so we're going to put it on hold. And so this was obviously terrible for this drug company. Their stock went down. Then a few days later, Laura Loomer suddenly goes on a tear against this guy. And so there have been a lot of other prominent right wing influencers who are saying, what's going on here? Are you taking money from this company? She denies it, but it is curious. It's sort of just the latest example of her, I think, using her influence in ways that, that at least people are accusing her of being on the take.
- [28:50]
Jon Favreau
Well, so there's, there's two options here and you lay them out. One was, which she actually does have some kind of relationship, professional relationship with this drug company. The other is you pointed out that accusing each other of grifting and taking money and being bought and sold by corporate interests is like, common among the MAGA set. When they're mad at someone else, they just like accuse them of being a corporate stooge. But we might learn a little bit more about where Laura Loomer's money comes from and how she gets paid because of a Because of Bill Maher. Is that. Is that right?
- [29:23]
Will Sommer
Yeah, of course. Bill Maher is riding to the rescue. He's going to figure it out. I mean, this is such a strange situation. And I should say, I mean, this is like a serious issue, right? Because if, I mean, we're talking about people dying from a drug and now that Vinay Prasad has been pushed out, right before he resigned, the FDA said back on that you can use this drug again in trials. So, I mean, this is potentially dangerous stuff here. And if the idea is that Laura Loomer can just fire off a tweet and change government policy, you know, it's ominous. But last year, Bill Maher, there was this point where Laura Loomer was really palling around with Trump. She was on the plane and Bill Maher implied or basically said, you know, I think Laura Loomer's sleeping with Donald Trump. Laura Loomer sues Maher and HBO over that. But now, I mean, in kind of classic Laura Loomer fashion, she has a history of these lawsuits that go off the rails. And so now she is basically, HBO says, well, you know, if you say we destroyed your reputation, we prevented you from getting a role in the Trump administration, we can't help but notice that you seem to be extremely powerful and influential now. So could you provide us with proof that you lost income and proof of your meetings with Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of staff? And so, and we need all the details on these meetings because you're supposedly such an outcast, but you don't seem to be. And the judge said, yeah, that makes sense. And so now, you know, if, unless Laura Loomer is just going to default in this lawsuit, she's going to have to provide HBO with evidence of all her income sources, her contacts with the White House. So it's potentially, you know, if that stuff gets into the court record, I think it could be very illuminating.
- [30:49]
Jon Favreau
I know that, like, back at the end of the campaign, there was some concern in Trump's circle about Laura Loomer advising him and Laura looming being on the plane. It seems like that's all gone now. Have you heard about anyone in the White House who's like, eh, we should keep this Laura Loomer person away since she is a self described Islamophobe and kooky as they come? Or is that just like, yeah, whatever.
- [31:14]
Will Sommer
I don't think that concern has gone away. I think she's just gotten too powerful. I mean, I think that basically, you know, there have been a lot of Profiles of her written this week about how, you know, she's running roughshod over the administration and people are like, yeah, I, you know, I, I wish we could get her out, or I wish she could stop disrupting our, our policy plans, like getting the kind of the second or third ranking guy at the FDA fired. But, you know, what can we do?
- [31:36]
Jon Favreau
Wow. And that's comforting. All right, I saved my favorite deranged conspiracy theory for last, which I first learned all the details about from your bulwark colleague Tim Miller on one of our shows last week. Candace Owens claims that French first lady Bridget Macron is a criminal, a transgender woman, and that French President Emmanuel Macron is not just her husband, but also her son. Two weeks ago, the Macrons quite reasonably filed a 22 count defamation lawsuit against Owens in the United States. But according to your reporting, Owens has been peddling this absolutely ridiculous conspiracy as early as March 2024. What the fuck is that? I was like, I, I had heard something about this, but until Tim really unspooled the details and then I read some of your reporting, I did not know the extent of it.
- [32:28]
Will Sommer
This is crazy. I mean, and yeah, I had the displeasure of, you know, I had to watch all these videos and get to the bottom of it. I thought for a while that this was just like something she was throwing out. Like Brigitte Macron is trans, or in the same way that they throw out that Michelle Obama's trans. But there's this whole like, worldview and it goes back to the Middle Ages. I mean, her belief about what's going on here. I mean, she basically, you know, the lawsuit is interesting because it focuses a lot on the economic benefits to Candace Owens of saying this. And so basically she's leaving the daily wire in March 2024 under a cloud. She's fighting with Ben Shapiro, who runs it. So she's fighting with him and then suddenly she says, oh my gosh, I dug up this years old thing about Brigitte Macron being trans from the French far right. And basically her allegation is that Brigitte Macron is in fact her brother, a guy named Jean Michel, and that Jean Michel became Brigitte macron in his 30s, transitioned. And then also maybe Emmanuel Macron is Jean Michel's son and maybe they're part of this CIA mind control experiment, maybe murdering their critics and perhaps a cult dating back hundreds of years that's out to undermine all of society. So she's throwing out a lot, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
- [33:42]
Jon Favreau
Wow, I Didn't know that it goes back hundreds of years as well.
- [33:47]
Will Sommer
Yeah, well, that's why it was an eight part series.
- [33:50]
Jon Favreau
I my question for Tim and just in general when I heard about this was like the clip of Candace Owens being like, bring it on, bring on the lawsuit. I'll see you in discovery. I'm so right on this. She is not backing down at all. And I don't understand how you don't even back down a little bit. Or she doesn't seem afraid at all that this lawsuit could succeed against her. Like what, what is going on there? Do you think she's just genuinely believes her own bullshit?
- [34:26]
Will Sommer
It's really mysterious. I mean, on one hand she could potentially have a lot of money to draw on. Her husband is really rich, comes from this wealthy British family. On the other hand, it's, you know, and this is a serious case. I mean, I spoke to lawyers who said, you know, this is really legit. Like this, this could be, this is not something that's going to get tossed out immediately in court. You know, they, the McCrones have hired Claire Locke, which is very heavy duty defamation firm that does a lot of, you know, cease and desist type work on behalf of right wing figures in the US So I mean it, yeah, it's a tough one to deal with, I think. But as you said, I mean it seems like her defense, she could say, well, I don't know, I really believed it. Or she could say that, you know, this is all opinion stuff, don't take me seriously. But I don't think either of those are great options for her.
- [35:12]
Jon Favreau
What do you think in general of lawsuits like these as a method of fighting back against conspiracy theories and misinformation. Do they tend to be effective?
- [35:22]
Will Sommer
Well, you know, we're certainly in an age where I think they've had a lot of success. You know, I mean, obviously we think about the Dominion lawsuit, the Smartmatic cases that are related to the 2020 election, you know, imagine theft are still going on. You know, Mike Lindell of my pillow fame recently got off with a relatively light $2 million judgment recently. So. But yeah, I mean, I think we're in this age where because these lawsuits have been so effective, another one, obviously Sandy Hook and Alex Jones, these lawsuits are pretty effective for the most part. And so as a result, we've seen a lot of people on the right transition from saying like that guy, that guy stole the election into, you know, as I should say, Dinesh d' Souza had to apologize recently for accusing some guy of being involved in election theft. So they've transitioned that into a more kind of like the deep state did it, you know, kind of a blander thing. And so I think that's what why Candace Owens is getting so much attention and traffic from specifically saying like this. This is a trans criminal, you know, because a lot of other people aren't willing to do that stuff anymore because of those lawsuits.
- [36:24]
Jon Favreau
Wow, she's so brave. Offline is brought to you by Civitech. In local elections across the country, races are being handed to MAGA candidates simply because no one shows up to vote. In fact, there are still around 50,000 local elections this year. There are millions of unregistered Democratic and progressive voters nationwide that can make all the difference in 2025 and beyond. That's where Civitech comes in. They're the secret weapon for progressive campaigns, advocacy groups, and nonprofits looking to make real change. With Civitech, you get access to their proprietary database and direct mail voter registration programs that are proven to be successful whether you're running for office, supporting a local cause or just tired of seeing your district flip. By default, civetech helps you register more voters. These tools aren't just for national campaigns. They support candidates and organizations down to the local level, where individual voters hold the most power and are the most difficult to mobilize. So if you're working on voter registration, turnout, or engagement, head to Civitech IO offline. That's C I V I T E C H IO Offline. Get the tools, the data and support you need to truly move the needle this election cycle with Civetek. Are you ready to get spicy?
- [37:41]
Will Sommer
These Doritos golden sriracha aren't that spicy. Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me. Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.
- [37:52]
Jon Favreau
Maybe it's time to turn up the heat.
- [37:55]
Will Sommer
Or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too Spicy.
- [38:11]
Jon Favreau
On the topic of fake news, there's an article in the Atlantic this week that dives into Gen Z's news consumption, which increasingly comes from TikTok. Close to 40% of adults under 30 use the app to stay up to date on current affairs. That's according to a Pew poll from last fall. Meanwhile, less than 1% of accounts on TikTok that people are following are traditional media outlets. Instead, people are following newsfluencers, but then quotations like Aaron Parnas or Jack Mac. The piece quotes a media professor at USC who said that For Gen Z's news consumption quote, the default position is algorithm. Let the information flow over me. I'll interrupt it when I see something interesting. As a journalist who spends a lot of time both experiencing and reporting on algorithmic feeds, how do you feel about that?
- [39:02]
Will Sommer
I don't feel great. I mean, on one hand it seems like the horses left the barn and there's nothing certainly I can do about it. But yeah, you read that article and it's all these people saying, I kind of consume news in this way where it's not really clear to me what the news is like. I'm getting it sort of third or fourth hand in the forms of these memes or skits, but I don't really know what the original news was. You know, we have these incidents where, you know, it's in my mind because I'm in D.C. but there was this idea that was really big on TikTok of all these girls were going missing, thousands of girls were missing, and it was just because the police department had never said, oh, by the way, we found this runaway. You know, and so you have these things that get enormous on social media and, and really spin out of control. I mean, I think the people quoted in that article who say, you know, yeah, this is like how I get my news. Is someone just reading a tweet from an actual news outlet. I think it's pretty grim.
- [39:55]
Jon Favreau
It is quite grim. And I think I heard Sarah Longwell, your Bulwark colleague, talk about this with some of her focus groups. I've also experienced this where you always ask people in a focus group, where do you get your news? And in the last couple years, you get a lot more people who are just like, oh, I just get it from my phone or on the Internet or from my feeds. And they don't even have a specific platform they're talking about. They don't mention media outlets, they don't talk about anything, any specific journalists. It's just they can't remember where they got their news. They just know that it comes through their phone. And I do think that that is just the. That is the end of, like, if you can't, if you don't, you know, and then you have people in this, in this p saying, well, you know, I don't. I know that it's not definitely correct. So I usually try to Google to check it. So now we're just like googling to check news that we got from someone who's not necessarily a journalist. And that's how we're finding our information, but we're letting it all wash over us. And hopefully we'll take the time to look it up. But if not, you know, whatever.
- [40:58]
Will Sommer
I also, I mean, to be frank, I don't believe those people who are like, well, don't worry, I'm rigorously. But doing the, doing the back work, you know, after I see a funny TikTok skit, I pause my TikTok and I go read the articles.
- [41:09]
Jon Favreau
I do want to talk about one story, controversy, I guess that that began on, on TikTok. And now, I don't know, this might be day 15 or 16. We do have to talk about Sydney Sweeney. We are required to talk about that, unfortunately, because I can't help myself. I got into a Twitter fight about this story with Meghan Kelly.
- [41:30]
Will Sommer
I just saw that, unfortunately.
- [41:32]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. So, you know, she has now decided that it's Beyonce's jeans ad that deserves criticism and that the right wing media's roadblocked coverage of the Sweeney ad over the last week is warranted because the left, quote unquote, started it. I will not subject listeners to any more details about my exchange with Megan. You can all check it out if you, if you hate yourselves. But I did want to bring it up because there is this dynamic now where right wing media, and now the Trump White House keep trying to make the Democratic Party or the left broadly defined own the silliest, craziest, weirdest takes from random posters and think pieces, even if it's just a few, which then fuels more discourse around a controversy that most normal people in the country wouldn't think is a controversy. Or what do you make of sort of the, the algorithmic path that these controversies travel now?
- [42:32]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a real issue for Democrats. I mean, there is this. I mean, look, that's why they call it libs of TikTok, right? I mean, they have this whole apparatus built up to find one person with kind of an off putting demeanor or dyed hair or whatever, with like 200 followers on Twitter. And then they'll say, you know, like this, what do you think of this? You know, and certainly in the case of Sydney Sweeney, I think a lot of pragmatic liberals were saying, well, let's not pick a fight on the popular attractive actress and say, that's what we're against. But, you know, all it takes is, you know, a couple influencers, you know, a couple influencers, social justice type people to say, you know, we're mad about this. And then it can create this whole cycle. I mean, I was struck in your, you know, your discourse with Megyn Kelly, you know, when she said, she says, like, you started this fight, Jon Favreau, and now we're going to finish it. I was just like, john didn't start this. You know, there's nothing. He didn't do anything.
- [43:22]
Jon Favreau
I mean, of course there are some liberals, like you said, I'm sure, who are like, this is not a fight to pick. But there's also, like, if I hadn't seen some of the posters say that it's Nazi or eugenics. Like, if I didn't know anything about it and I just saw the Sydney Sweeney ad, I wouldn't even think for a second that there was a problematic in any way. It's just, it's just a good looking actress in a jeans ad, one of the most famous in the world right now. It's like, obviously good for American Eagle. They got Sydney Sweeney for their jeans ad. Same thing with Beyonce in a jeans ad for Levi's. Like, it is wild how much they feel the need to keep these culture wars going and to feed the flames of them. And I do think, like, I can't tell if some of it is they genuinely believe that most of the left feels this way because in their feeds they're seeing outrage or they're just, you know, they're just manufacturing it because it's, it's good content and good for clicks. Maybe, maybe it's a bit of both. I don't know.
- [44:20]
Will Sommer
I mean, I do think it's good. It's good content. But also, I mean, it's a lot more fun for Megyn Kelly to talk about that than to talk about Epstein.
- [44:26]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [44:26]
Will Sommer
And to say, you know, I mean, they're loving this. I mean, there's a reason this thing has stretched into two weeks, because then you don't have to be doing, you know, your daily YouTube show about how, you know, well, we want the files to come out, but maybe not, not that quickly. Or not if they're about Trump. I mean, that's. It's a much simpler thing to talk about Sydney Sweeney.
- [44:42]
Jon Favreau
It is. It is. One last thing. Speaking of people's Twitter exchanges, I noticed you were tweeting about a rather intense civil war that broke out on Twitter last night between MAGA influencers. It was over an engagement ring, but it also involved accusations of infidelity, dildos, and getting, and this is a direct quote, fingered in the middle of a hotel lobby at a TP USA event. My only question will, is this story typical or atypical of the beat that you cover?
- [45:13]
Will Sommer
This is, this is such a typical story. I had been seeing this develop for several days and then I was like, all right, all right, enough. You know, this, I should say the TPUSA lobby fingering incident. This has like been much discussed for several years on the Right. I've been in Twitter spaces where people will be like, well, we all know what went down in the lobby there that day. And I'm like, God, they really talk openly about this stuff. But I mean, yeah, this was, this was a case where one of these kind of right wing women got engaged and then some of them started saying, not much of a rock there. Looks like crap. And then suddenly people were like, why don't you shut up, whore? And it got crazy. Over on the Bulwark YouTube channel, Tim and Sam Stein and I devoted, I think 20 minutes today to explaining we go beat by beat if people want every twist and turn. We tried to figure it out.
- [45:58]
Jon Favreau
I'll be watching that after this. And I laughed really hard when you said this was not the first dildo related fall from grace from a right wing influence. That seems like it would be an interesting series. And it's on, you know.
- [46:15]
Will Sommer
Yeah, no, there was a guy in the past, kind of a big manosphere guy, a big beard, who got caught making all of this kind of, you know, porn starring, starring just himself. And then he kind of fell from grace in the, in the Bacismo community.
- [46:28]
Jon Favreau
Tommy made me promise that I'd ask you if you could give us the dill dos and don'ts of being at a TPUSA conference. So there I did it. That's it.
- [46:38]
Will Sommer
I mean, they seem to get pretty wild to me. I mean, based on the stories I've heard.
- [46:43]
Jon Favreau
Will, thank you so much for joining. This was a really fun and also terrifying spin through all of the conspiracies driving MAGA world on the Internet these days. But I thought it was very informative. And thanks for the work you're doing at the Bulwark.
- [47:00]
Will Sommer
Thanks for having me, as always.
- [47:03]
Jon Favreau
If you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us at offlinecrucket.com, and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform for ad free episodes of Offline in pod, Save America, exclusive content and more. Join our friends at the pod subscription community@qriket.com friends and if you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau. It's produced by Emma Illich Frank Austin Fisher is our senior producer, Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics, Evan Sutton is our Sound Editor and Charlotte Landis is our engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Delon Villanueva and our digital team who film and share our efforts. Episodes as Videos Every week our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east.
- [48:26]
Will Sommer
Hi there, it's Andy Richter and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bowe and Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter Call in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like deep dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts. Businesses that are selling through the roof.
- [49:09]
Jon Favreau
Like Untuck it make selling and for.
- [49:11]
Will Sommer
Shoppers buying simple with Shopify, home of.
- [49:14]
Jon Favreau
The number one checkout on the planet.
- [49:16]
Will Sommer
And with Shop Pay you can boost.
- [49:17]
Jon Favreau
Conversions up to 50%. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, upgrade your business and get the same checkout Untuck it uses.
- [49:25]
Will Sommer
Sign up for your $1 per month.
- [49:26]
Jon Favreau
Trial period at shopify.com podcast free. All lowercase go to shopify.com podcastfree to upgrade your selling today.