Ryan Broderick (2:23)

And I'm Ryan Broderick.

Jon Favreau (2:25)

Ryan, welcome to the pod.

Ryan Broderick (2:26)

Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Jon Favreau (2:28)

So Max is out for a few more days this week. We are lucky to have Ryan, who writes one of Offline's favorite newsletters, Garbage Day. Austin, our producer, got us all hooked on Garbage Day and now we all read it all the time and it's fantastic.

Ryan Broderick (2:43)

Your listeners can't hear me blushing right now. I don't know if my microphone's powerful enough.

Jon Favreau (2:47)

You've been writing this newsletter about life on the Internet for, I think, six years now. Out of curiosity, are you okay?

Ryan Broderick (2:55)

Yeah. Yeah. No, this is. This is cheaper than therapy. People pay me instead of me paying a therapist. So this works great for me.

Jon Favreau (3:01)

That's good. What do you. What do you think has changed the most about the Internet? Life on the Internet, all that you cover since you started writing?

Ryan Broderick (3:12)

There was a. I think the biggest one, I mean, a lot, right? But like, I think the biggest one is the Internet used to have a center, at least in terms of our understanding of it. Like Twitter for most countries was sort of the meeting ground, the watering hole for the Internet and we lost that. And so now there's like a right wing Twitter and there's a left wing Twitter and there's all kinds of other derivative Twitters. And so it's hard to track stuff. It's a lot harder than it used to be. But I think that's probably a good thing. I think Twitter is probably getting a little too crowded by the end. But it's harder to find stuff.

Jon Favreau (3:42)

I think it's harder to find stuff. I also find it just from. From my job, my other job, politics. It like makes sort of any kind of functioning politics, democracy much tougher because no one is getting the same information and no one. And in many cases people aren't even talking to each other. So that, that, that part, you know, and it has obviously aligned with the Trump era, but the. It's. It's made everything just a bit. Bit trickier, I think I will say.

Ryan Broderick (4:15)

I do, I do find X convenient in a certain way because I used to have to go to 4chan to see the stuff that these guys are talking about. And 4chan doesn't really have a great interface. It's not good on mobile. But like X, you can pull it up and you can see like what all the worst people on earth are talking about. So like, in terms of like snooping around. I think that is useful, but it is, it is a nightmare to open it. You can't open it in public. Like, it's really dangerous, actually.

Jon Favreau (4:38)

Yeah. If you're anywhere to the left of center and you're still on like, I am and you are, no one can accuse us of not getting outside our liberal bubble, that's for sure.

Ryan Broderick (4:48)

No, yeah. I'm fully exposed to, like, straight up blood and soil nationalism. All day long.

Jon Favreau (4:55)

All day long.

Ryan Broderick (4:55)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (4:56)

All right, let's start with the biggest story in the world. The global economic turmoil caused by Donald Trump's trade war, which, believe it or not, is also an Internet story. Just one example. On Monday, someone named Walter Bloomberg, who's a popular news influencer on X, tweeted that President Trump was considering a 90 day pause on his tariff plan. The market surged 8% until everyone realized that the tweet was a complete misinterpretation of an answer that Trump's economic adviser gave on Fox and Friends in a viral clip that was taken out of context. And then once the White House confirmed it wasn't true, the markets plunged again. And who knew that Walter Bloomberg was just ahead of his time? Because just before we started recording this, Trump wrote what Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick called, quote, one of the most extraordinary truth posts of his presidency, in which he announced a 90 day pause on the tariffs. Except for China, except for the 10% universal tariff, which seems to now include Canada and Mexico. But also, no one's really sure. Anyway, the market surged. All the Trump sycophants hailed the art of the deal and claimed this was the plan all along. And then Trump came out and said he did it because the bond market was making people, quote, queasy. What do you think? Is this the sign of a healthy media system and financial system?

Ryan Broderick (6:22)

Yeah, I mean, I love Walter Bloomberg. I can't even, like, hear his name. So I first discovered that guy when I was covering crypto like four or four years ago now. And, you know, I can't afford the Bloomberg terminal. So, like, if there's one, like, insane man that just wants to live, tweet it all day. Like, that is useful. But this is, you know, what happens when you're relying on Walter Bloomberg, too.

Jon Favreau (6:44)

I thought for, like, from, from, for a couple years, I thought Walter Bloomberg was like, he was just the Bloomberg terminal, or I thought he was just replicating it, but I guess that's not. Clearly, that's not true. After this week, I.

Ryan Broderick (6:56)

Up until like a year or two ago, I thought the Spectator Index, which is like a similar kind of account, was run by the Spectator out of London. But it is just also another weird man.

Jon Favreau (7:05)

It's tough. It's tough.

Ryan Broderick (7:06)

But no, to answer your question, it is not a healthy sign of a global media ecosystem at all.

Jon Favreau (7:12)

Some of Trump's most prominent and extremely online supporters have been rather vocal in their opposition to this trade war. You got your Bill Ackman's, your Dave Portnoy's, even Elon Musk, who's in something of a middle school boy fight with Trump trade advisor Peter Navarro. Since a lot of people spent about 80% of their post election analysis talking about the Bro Vote podcast Bros. Finance Bros. Barstool Bros. Do you think the trade war has made some of these folks think twice about their support for Trump? How is it landing in those communities?

Ryan Broderick (7:48)

I definitely have seen. So I'm a close watcher of Dave Portnoy because we grew up near the same part of Massachusetts, so I have like, regional beef with him already.

Jon Favreau (7:56)

Where are you from?

Ryan Broderick (7:57)

Well, not to dox myself, but I'm from north of Boston, just like him. Me too. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (8:02)

So north Reddit.

Ryan Broderick (8:03)

Okay. Marblehead. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (8:05)

Look at you. Look at us.

Ryan Broderick (8:06)

Yeah. So he's from Swampscott, so like, obviously.

Jon Favreau (8:08)

Like, he's on Cape Ann League.

Ryan Broderick (8:10)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, as another Massachusetts trash bag, I've been watching him closely and he has been breaking with Trump like, a lot faster than his contemporaries. And I think it's. He's always been sort of politically chaotic, but now we're seeing Joe Rogan. Yeah, we're seeing Ben Shapiro. And I mean, ultimately, these guys, like, they, they make their money from, from dropshipping. So, like, if, if there's tariffs on Chinese goods like their supplements, they're. They're like jaw incel. Like things that they're selling on YouTube. You can't do that anymore.

Jon Favreau (8:42)

Yeah, it's. It's not great. And I do think. And look, these guys were, I mean, they were the folks that like, sort of put him over the top. Right. I mean, they weren't like the hardcore MAGA from the beginning. And so I think their support was always somewhat tenuous and seemed to be based more on a general, like, you know, I'm pissed about inflation and the woke shit. And now I'm just going to talk myself into why Donald Trump actually isn't that bad and maybe is kind of cool, especially because he pumped his fist after someone almost assassinated him.

Ryan Broderick (9:16)

Well, I mean, you've, you've probably noticed this too. But like even going all the way back to the first administration, like the girlies are always fighting on the right, like they have massive infighting problems. I mean this is actually like a baked into fascism like from like 200 years ago. They're always fighting with each other. So like Milo's like beefing with, you know, whoever at TP usa. Like it just, this is a thing. But it is interesting to watch, like why they start fighting. I do think the signals there are useful.

Jon Favreau (9:42)

Yeah. And it's also, the signals are also useful in terms of like who is starting to peel off or at least, you know, question their support for Trump and who is just completely embarrassing themselves and sticking with them no matter what and you know, just basically changing their rationale for supporting the trade policy or not supporting it based on, you know, hour to hour developments.

Ryan Broderick (10:08)

Well, you mentioned Ackman. I mean he, he, he, he really peed his pants today because he was just like thanking Trump afterwards, being like, thank you so much Mr. President for turning the economy back on. And it's like a lot of these guys, like, they can't save face and like, I guess they just do the math and being like, we'll stick with Trump because maybe you know, it's an authoritarian regime, like, I'll stick with them. But yeah, it's, it's very embarrassing.

Jon Favreau (10:30)

I mean, watching Fox was wild. We were watching Fox while, while it all happened and it was immediately art of the deal, which is what the White House press secretary said. And you know, this is, everything's wonderful now and this is great. And finally, like of all people, like Charles Gasparino from Fox Business comes on Fox and he's like, uh, I'd love to say that Donald Trump's a genius that just saved the world economy, but that's not actually what happened. And you can see everyone else on Fox, like their eyes go wide like, oh my God, what are you saying here? You know, like this guy's, this guy's going to get sent to El Salvador now.

Ryan Broderick (11:04)

I mean, very possible. But like, this is actually, I think a really important shift that's happening where Trump for, you know, let's say the last 15 years has sort of said to everyone that he is a capitalist and he is doing good things for the economy and this is like the conservative capitalist agenda. And now we're kind of seeing the evolution of a very different brand of Trumpism that has been, you know, gurgling since the beginning of the year. And it's now having a break with the actual like, you know, hardcore capitalists of America. It's, it's, it's fascinating and, and a little scary. More than a little scary.

Jon Favreau (11:36)

I mean, just since we're not out of the woods by any means, since the trade war is still very much on and, you know, China and US combined are like 50% of the global economy. I noticed you wrote that you lived in the UK during Brexit and you were in India during Prime Minister Modi's demonetization scheme. What was that like? And do you see similarities to the situation we're in now? What can people expect in America?

Ryan Broderick (12:02)

Yeah, I wrote that down. And people kept saying, like, stop going to countries, please. You're destroying the economy. Yeah, so I lived in the UK during Brexit. As a reporter. I was in India for demonetization and I lived in Brazil during the Bolsonaro regime with like massive hyperinflation and all that. Right. So for Brexit, it was a slow motion car crash. It felt very similar to now, but they voted and then they took basically five years to exit the European Union. So, you know, you're walking down the street in London and just stuff starts being worse. Like, you just, like, systems don't function. You know, the buses are dirtier, the trains dirtier, Things don't work as well. People are poor. But it was over five years. You know, in India, when you have like literally just banknotes that just stop working and stop being money, it's, it's a similar shock to, I think, what we could have been looking at, like this week, depending on how things went, where I don't think the average American really understands, like, how interconnected the global economy is. Like, especially even compared to 2008. You know, in 2008 we all were a little poor. And, you know, and I don't want to diminish it, but like, it is not the same economy. And the example that I use in the piece was like, think of the Suez Canal boat. Like, think of how interconnected the global economy is where, like, one boat screwed it up because it got stuck. Like, it's a very different world now.

Jon Favreau (13:22)

I know. And when I was reading what you said about Brexit, it does feel like we're on in the Brexit scenario with a shorter timeline because we'll start seeing the cost of goods rise just based on the tariffs that, that still exist right now. And, and then you combine that with just government services breaking down because of what Musk and, and Trump are doing to the federal government. And you think okay, if we have a country where everything's more expensive, people are a little poorer, shit doesn't work, government doesn't function properly even worse than it does now. And that's like the best case scenario, right?

Ryan Broderick (14:02)

That's like the scenario as of right now.

Jon Favreau (14:04)

Yes, that's like if we get out of this without a much worse disaster and we don't have like Trump as president forever or Trump and Don Jr. And J.D. vance or whatever.

Ryan Broderick (14:15)

Yeah, that's the rotating cast of fantastic men. Normal looking men. Yeah. So exactly. I think everyone in our heads, we kind of imagine the pictures from the Great Depression or our own experiences during the Great Recession, but the idea of locking ourselves off from the global economy by choice is incomprehensible. And we are going to see services break down, we are going to have moments where stuff just doesn't cost the normal amount, or we forget what normal is. And then we have a social services problem that's already been happening in this country for 20 years. And I can't even imagine what it would look like if it was worse.

Jon Favreau (14:58)

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Ryan Broderick (16:10)

The wire said Calvi found dead. Suicide. Question mark.

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Jon Favreau (16:43)

The other new dynamic this time around that wasn't around in 2008 is just like the way that we all get information again, this information environment. Because at the very least, like, having been through, you know, I was on the Obama campaign at the time when the financial crisis really hit and the markets tumbled and they had to do the bailout. And there is at least a sense among everyone, Republicans, Democrats, the whole across the spectrum that like, oh, this is really bad, awful. And you had a lot of people in Congress who didn't want to take the vote for the bailout for political, you know, understandably. But there was, at least everyone was on the same page. What's wild about now is even we're recording this Wednesday, even last night, Tuesday night, when the bond markets were going crazy, like, some people are on X and other platforms being like, this is really, really bad. This is, you know, and other people are like, oh, it's totally fine. It's great. This is what we want. And I just feel like not when it comes to economic uncertainty or potential economic crisis, not having everyone on the same page, not having everyone have the same information or even being able to acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone agreeing on a solution is like a much scarier dynamic.

Ryan Broderick (17:59)

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm so torn with this because I do wonder, like, is it just people, like, feeding into the incentives of social media, like, right, you know, fighting for their tribe and saying like, no, this is my reality. And if they are, is it propaganda or is it literally, like, we have reached a point where people think you can just force reality to be what you want it to be online. Like, like, I do wonder what the end goal is for someone, like, I don't know, like one of the musk bots on X who's saying, like, no, the economy's fine, like, okay, but like, what do you think you're doing when you say that? Like, what are you actually trying to accomplish?

Jon Favreau (18:35)

Yeah, I think that it's a, it's just, you know, short termism, but, like, taken to the extreme because they're thinking, like, well, I can say that now, and this is my reality right now. And I'm Sitting here in my house and nothing has changed. And, you know, even, you know, spikes in the prices of goods are not going to be noticed by, like, most consumers in the country for a little while at least, and maybe a little longer now that he's backed off a bit. Even, even in 2007, you know, the huge job losses didn't come until after Obama won, and we were in the transition in November and December and January. So there is a lag. And I almost think that, like, that lag lets people online just sort of bask in their own reality and try to convince other people that that reality is. Is. Is it is a fact in the short term.

Ryan Broderick (19:24)

I think that's definitely right. And I definitely watched over the weekend, like, leading up to what they're what Dave Portnoy calls Orange Monday, which is unfortunately really good. Yeah, I know, like, got to give him that one. But I was watching sort of all the conservatives on X, you know, do the monkeys with typewriters thing they do whenever Trump is doing something crazy. And, like, it is interesting that there's also, like, an economy inside of that world where they're. They're monetized by X often because they're verified. They're trying to get likes and retweets, and they're trying to spin, like, essentially fan fiction of what's happening. And I do think that that's partly explaining the momentum there is, like, they can go viral, they can make and make money. They can make YouTube videos, whatever it is. Within the chaos of whatever Trump's newest.

Jon Favreau (20:11)

Project is, I want to focus on one of the rationales they gave for their support of the trade war, which I know you wrote about. You know, you had MAGA influencer plagiarist Benny Johnson tweeting, losing money means nothing. Digital ones and zeros. In the end, you won't miss any of it. And, you know, you wrote this piece about explaining how a lot of the online right is embracing sort of potential collapse of the global economy because they believe it could solve, quote, America's crisis in masculinity. And this actually made it to a Fox segment with, of course, Jesse Watters. We have a clip of it right now.

Ryan Broderick (20:54)

When you sit behind a screen all day, it makes you a woman. Studies have shown this.

Jon Favreau (20:58)

Studies have shown this.

Ryan Broderick (21:00)

And if you're out working, like, building.

Jon Favreau (21:02)

Robots like Harold, you are around other guys. You're not around H.R. ladies and lawyers.

Ryan Broderick (21:07)

What do you do? Estrogen, what do you. Let me finish.

Jon Favreau (21:10)

Judge.

Ryan Broderick (21:11)

You sit behind the screen.

Jon Favreau (21:12)

So, damn, he's always, he's always like half joking but not really how. You know, it's sort of a. Can you explain why the right thinks that global recession will make us all alpha males?

Ryan Broderick (21:24)

Yeah, sure. And I have to, I have to like hat tip. Claire Haber Harris, she writes under cartoons. Hate her. And she's been covering this for like actually months. She was really early sort of putting, putting this together. But yeah, I had seen a lot of people sort of circulating this same idea over the weekend. Both like, like, you know, leftist or liberals watching the conservatives, but also the conservatives themselves literally just saying like tariffs are worth it if women can't work anymore. Tariffs are worth it if men go back to factories or whatever. And I think a lot of the skeleton key of the modern conservative movement in America boils down to like incel theory or Gamergate or whatever you want to call it. But it's this idea that like there are a bunch of useless men on the Internet and conservatives to realize they can weaponize them by like enraging them and, and, and, and sending them after their enemies. And now like that dynamic has flipped in a weird way where they've clearly internalized that they have a bunch of like useless lonely men on their side. So now they're like, we should put them in factories actually. Like we should get these freaks out of here. And so you see these guys all day long, you know, and now like because Fox News picks it up like that's the pipeline, they're saying to men like, don't worry about your 401k. You can make socks in a factory in 15 years.

Jon Favreau (22:37)

Which these guys that are sitting home on their computers all day don't actually want it. Like they're going to argue for that vision, of course, but they don't actually, they don't actually want that. They don't want to go to the factories and screw in the, the iPhones like Howard Lutnick is talking about. Like that's exactly, that's not what they really want to do. They just want to, they don't want the, they don't want women to have the jobs that they have.

Ryan Broderick (22:59)

They, they want like their government assigned girlfriends and they want to like sit on the computer and talk about how great it is to like work in a factory like a real man. But like, you know, post on X all day like it's, it's, it's, it's a farce. The whole thing's a farce.

Jon Favreau (23:11)

Can you talk about the, the Gen Z boss in a mini video and what this has to do with it because Austin brought it up and was like, do you want to talk about that as part of the, this, this masculinity thing? And I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And then, and then I went down the rabbit hole and. Wow. Wow. But I'll, I'll let you explain.

Ryan Broderick (23:28)

Happy to help. So, yeah, it's a video from last summer. It's a skincare company in Australia doing a trend on TikTok that was like boots and a slick back buns. You do like a dance and you say what you're wearing. And the skin company, skincare company TBH Skincare made a video and they did it in their office. And so a bunch of like red pill guys found it and they started just like going berserk. And they've been going berserk about this video for like, I mean, yeah, like almost a year. Because there's an entire genre on the Internet. You can find this horrible rabbit hole if you really want to. You can just like search like product mommy on X. And it's essentially like rage clips of like women who manage men in STEM fields. And it's like it ties into this like, stereotype that like, if you're a coder, like a normal woman will be assigned to manage how weird and awful you are. And so they rage about this all day long. It's like very incel friendly content. And this one video has just been stuck in the algorithm for a year. And you saw them cycling it through again this weekend. I mean, the one I included was a guy who was just like, tariffs are worth it if we don't have to deal with this anymore or whatever. And so like it really does boil down to you can cope with whatever Trump is doing to the economy no matter how bad it is for you, if it means that like your boss isn't a woman ever again.

Jon Favreau (24:46)

Right. As long as we can like eliminating these white collar office jobs, email management, product manager, pr, all the, you know that, you know that women are doing that. That's, that's a good thing. And then we can all go back to the factories and the women can go home.

Ryan Broderick (25:01)

Exactly. That's the, that's the dream of crashing the global economy. Yeah. You work at a factory and you have a stay at home wife.

Jon Favreau (25:08)

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Jon Favreau (26:44)

So another casualty of Trump's tariffs might be a possible TikTok deal. The new York Times reported this week that as of last Wednesday, Liberation Day Eve, the White House and ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, coalesced around a new ownership structure that would allow the popular video app to continue operating in the United States. But after Trump announced a slew of new tariffs on Chinese imports, ByteDance unsurprisingly informed the White House that the Chinese government would not let the deal proceed. In response, President Trump paused enforcement of the band for an additional 75 days. He was just asked about it in the Oval right before we recorded and he said, yeah, Chinese not too happy right now. So I don't know, but I'm still hopeful it'll get done. What do you make of this? Do you any chance that the Chinese government lets this deal proceed and. Or does it even matter? Like, I mean I am of the view that Trump, who not doesn't really care much for the law anyway, is just going to continue kicking this can down the road every 75 days. But I don't know. What do you think?

Ryan Broderick (27:42)

I mean, I'm supposed to be kind of objective about this stuff, but I think it's really funny. I just think it's just really funny because he clearly. Yes, he is clearly consolidating power into some sort of autocracy or dictatorship, and that is the grand plan here. But I do love that even he's like, I'm not touching the TikTok thing. It's just too much. And so I sort of do think he's. It's in no one's best interest to deal with it. And that is sort of like. That's kind of the American way. Like, just, like, don't deal with it. Like, just ignore it.

Jon Favreau (28:15)

Yeah. Unless. I wonder if, like, the Chinese get so pissed that they shut because of the trade war. That's a lever they can pull. They could always shut down TikTok in the United States.

Ryan Broderick (28:25)

I mean, they have said that, like, they don't need TikTok to operate in the United States, and I believe them. I mean, it's. It's not like they have a total. They have the rest of the planet and they also have back home. Like, they don't re. Like. And. And they've. And this was like their. Their narrative during the trade war when it was, I guess, happening more intensely earlier in the week when they were like, we will fight. Like, we will. We will stay in this. Like, and I do take them at their. At face value there, so they could use it as lower. But I think Trump is smart. I shouldn't say smart enough, but, like, Trump is aware enough to not. To not mess with TikTok.

Jon Favreau (28:59)

I think. I think so, too. And I also think he just sees so much financial opportunity, sadly. Right. Like, there's. He can get part of a deal, the government gets part of a deal. He makes a deal with China. It's part of the trade negotiations. So it's just another chip. And, like, shutting it down is just a pain in the ass. He does it. He. He clearly doesn't care about the Chinese government spying on Americans or any privacy issues. Like, that's not. And. And in terms of, you know, what the algorithm might do to spread, you know, propaganda or whatever like that, he. He knows it's going to be mostly pro Trump or, Or at least it has been. I mean, I guess they could turn.

Ryan Broderick (29:34)

It back, but he loves a tryout. Like, he loves making a bunch of sick freaks compete for something. And, like, having all of his rich friends, like get up and be like, I want to invest in Tick Tock. Like, I've heard Anderson Horowitz is interested. I've heard Amazon's interested. I've heard, like, a whole bunch of other billionaires are interested. And Trump loves that stuff. Like, that's just a carrot that he can hang on a stick for his entire presidency if he really wants to.

Jon Favreau (29:56)

Yeah, and he probably would. And Bezos is interested and he might make a bid, and Zuckerberg hates it, and so maybe, you know, he keeps him on the line.

Ryan Broderick (30:04)

Exactly.

Jon Favreau (30:04)

It is perfect. Win, win. All right, let's talk about the man whose volume of posting may actually exceed his wealth, Elon Musk. Last week, Politico reported that President Trump told his inner circle, including members of his Cabinet, that Elon would soon be stepping back from his role in the administration. White House, of course, immediately called the news Garbage with Caroline Levitt tweeting, quote, elon Musk and President Trump have both publicly stated that Elon will depart from public service as a special government employee when his incredible work at Doge is complete. But notable rift between the President and the world's richest man has begun to open, not just over the tariffs, but the political blowback over Doge and the state Supreme Court election in Wisconsin that Elon helped Republicans lose. You wrote that Elon might be getting Vivek'd want to elaborate?

Ryan Broderick (30:54)

Yeah, he's getting the Vivek Ramaswamy treatment. You know, they're kicking him out. I mean, my. The thing that I've been very interested in is sort of like, what. How does Trump see Musk? Like, what is Musk's utility to Trump? And over the last few months, like, the feeling that I have is that Musk had convinced Trump that Musk's technology in some way was helping Trump and Trump's allies win around the world. And it feels to me like Wisconsin was like, no. And so he's out. Like. Like, that's the only. Because I don't understand why Trump would let Musk, like, run rampant for the last three months. Like, it's so unlike him.

Jon Favreau (31:37)

It is unlike him, and it's unlike him to give someone else the spotlight. Though there's a weird part of Trump in the second term where he seems, like, a little bit more chill about everything because he has nothing much, nothing else to lose. He's won again. He's not running again. He might be president again, but he's not running again. And he survived all this shit. And so it's like, ah, Elon can Run around. But when it really starts getting him bad press, that turns it a little. Although I hadn't thought about the angle that, that you wrote about, which is because he thinks that Elon Musk is so smart with computers that maybe he could like actually have something to do with voting machines or if not voting machines, like, I don't know, tweaking algorithms to help, you know, him in elections and all that.

Ryan Broderick (32:22)

I mean, maybe I'm just sort of like dreaming this scenario up in my head, but I, I don't think it would be very hard to convince former Twitter addict Donald Trump that you now could help him win by owning Twitter. Yeah, and, and, and I think a lot of conservatives, I mean, this actually goes back to the point you mentioned at the top of the episode, which is like, I think there is a massive chunk of prominent conservatives right now that believe that what happens on X matters to anyone other than them.

Jon Favreau (32:49)

Yeah, that is, I think that's probably right. And I think he just likes having people in his orbit, right, that are, that are rich and powerful and if loves it and if he doesn't have to, and if he doesn't have to sacrifice much to keep them in his orbit, that'll be fine. But if it's. Again, if it starts hurting him politically, then he's gonna, he's gonna do away with them.

Ryan Broderick (33:05)

So actually, wait, that was the question I wanted to ask. You think he feels that way still? Do you feel like he's still like subject to public opinion the way he was in the first administration?

Jon Favreau (33:14)

You know, I think much less for sure. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, he admitted today that it was the bond markets that made him, you know, walk back from the tariff regime. And you know, I think if like the economy, the world economy collapsed, he is smart enough to know that it is all on him. And I think that, you know, that's so that says something about how he's pressured by public opinion. And I don't think he just, I think he wakes up every day, doesn't love bad press. It's not like he cares much about what the legacy media says about him. But, you know, I do think if he's seeing your port noise out there, your Bill Ackman's or he turns on Fox and Fox lets on a couple people who are actually telling the truth and starts complaining, mean, it's going to be a nuisance to him. I don't think it'll send him into a rage like he used to be in his first term. But I think there's, there's something there. And then I think, like, if he loses, if the Republicans lose the midterms, you know, publicly he'll say, well, they're all idiots anyway. And they didn't, they didn't run on the Trump agenda. Right. But privately I think he'll take it as a rebuke and, and so that'll be a pressure point. So I think there are fewer pressure points to influence Trump or to have public opinion pressure Trump than there ever have been. But I think some of them are still there.

Ryan Broderick (34:34)

That feels so good to think about, actually. That's like going to help me hold on for the next couple months. I mean, for saying that.

Jon Favreau (34:39)

Yeah. And maybe I'm just, I may just be trying to convince myself, but, you know, I think it's, it's something. So the impending end of his special government role isn't the only bad news for Elon this week. Apparently. This is a great story in the Daily Beast. On Saturday night, Musk Rage quit a video game livestream after he was repeatedly and ruthlessly cyberbullied. In the chat, Elon reportedly sat stone faced as commenters such as Elon Musk is pathetic. That was one user's name commented things like, and these are all quotes. You will always feel insecure and it will never go away. Elon, how is it possible to look this dumb and ugly? Why is your Tesla company falling apart? And my personal favorite, Elon Musk, will you please jerk off, Mr. Trump. So he dies of a heart attack. What? Like, I have to hand it to people for, for Joe, just the creativity, you know.

Ryan Broderick (35:42)

So funny.

Jon Favreau (35:42)

It's so funny. Why would he subject himself to this and just, and just stay there and not do anything?

Ryan Broderick (35:48)

I mean, he's so obsessed with proving that he's a real gamer.

Jon Favreau (35:51)

That's it, right?

Ryan Broderick (35:52)

It's such a thing for him. And like, he isn't like, he, he's, he's like there's a, I mean, I, you can find it on YouTube. But like these, these YouTubers did like a whole video proving that he doesn't understand the basic mechanics of like the Diablo game that he plays all the time, quote, unquote. Like he makes decisions when he's streaming that aren't possible. Don't make any sense. Like we know this now that he's faking in some way and it's, it's clearly eating him up inside, which also feels really good to think about.

Jon Favreau (36:19)

I was going to ask you about this because I've like, sort of followed the video game Elon Scandal. How much is he faking? Like, does he. He's clearly plays a lot of video games, right? But, like, he's just, is he just faking that he's as good as he wants people to think he is?

Ryan Broderick (36:33)

So allegedly, he, he, he streams when he, like, he streams video games, and Diablo is one of them. This one was, I think path of exile 2 was the one he was playing. And people started to notice that the times that he was streaming, like, weren't possible with his schedule or his tweeting. They started to notice that when he would then, like, get defensive, he would then do another stream in which, like, like, there's one video where, like, his head's not moving the way the game should. Like, it's, he's like, it doesn't look like he's playing it. And then in this, the, the YouTube breakdown that I watched, which seems to have been like, the final kind of, like, you know, thing that broke this open, he describes one of his builds for Diablo, I believe it is. And the person who's playing is like, look, like I've played Diablo for years and years and years. Like, this doesn't make any sense. This isn't how anyone would play it. Like, the words he's using don't even make sense in the context of how he's using them. Like, there's just no way that anyone who plays this game seriously would do this or act this way. And it's just sort of snowballed from there.

Jon Favreau (37:41)

Wow. He's just. I, I, I take too much joy in stories like this about Elon Musk, because I, he is, to me, the most, maybe the most loathsome figure of Trump 2.0, which is tough because Trump is way up there. But just, it's, it's, he's just so embarrassing.

Ryan Broderick (37:57)

I think it's also, like, import, like, you know, it's, these are very funny things to be talking about, but I do think it's really important because, like, Musk in the 2000s and the early 2010s, like, you know, he, like, has a cameo in, in Iron Man 2.

Jon Favreau (38:11)

Yeah.

Ryan Broderick (38:11)

Like, he, he spent, he was on Big Bang Theory. He spent a considerable amount of energy to become this, like, nerd king as a, as a, it was. And it was always a PR thing. It was always this idea of, like, oh, I can sell science fiction ideas to investors that I don't actually have to make or figure out how to do if I'm like, the nerd king of Silicon Valley or whatever. And like now we know that that's never really been true.

Jon Favreau (38:34)

Yeah, he really, really wanted to be Tony Stark. That's like when he, when he had that comparison, that was the pinnacle for him and he wanted to keep it and he was not able to. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's talk numbers. Traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from 100 to $250 per session, which adds up fast. But with Better Help online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. With BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and on time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it and now it's within reach. Who doesn't have anxiety or everyday stress? That's why you need therapy.

Ryan Broderick (39:20)

Yeah, everyone needs it.

Jon Favreau (39:21)

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Nicolo Minoni (39:51)

Is Nicolo Minoni, and for years I have been obsessed with with one of Europe's greatest mysteries. Who killed God's banker?

Ryan Broderick (40:00)

The wire said Calvi found dead suicide question mark.

Nicolo Minoni (40:06)

What truly happened to the banker who had the Vatican, the Mafia, and a secret far right branch of the Freemasons all pounding on his door? From Crooked Media and Campside Media, this is Shadow Kingdom Season 1, God's Best Banker. Find it wherever you get your podcasts or get early access to the full season by joining Crooked's friends of the pod@crooked.com friends.

Jon Favreau (40:34)

All right, one more big piece of news we have to cover today. This afternoon, Sarah Wynn Williams, former Director of Global Public Policy at Facebook, testified before the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Counterterrorism. The testimony was Sarah's first public comment since an arbitrator prohibited her from promoting her book Careless People, which details allegations of sexual harassment and reckless, malicious behavior by the most senior executives at the company now known as Meta. In her opening statement, Sarah told the Senate subcommittee that she, quote, saw Meta executives repeatedly undermine US national security and betray American values, and that they, quote, lied about what they were doing with the Chinese Communist Party to employees, shareholders, Congress, and the American public. We have a few clips of Missouri Senator Josh Hawley questioning Sarah.

Josh Hawley (41:25)

Americans who exchange messages or other information with Chinese Facebook users. That would mean the Chinese government could get access to the American data as well, Is that correct?

Sarah Wynn Williams (41:35)

Through the POP servers? Potentially, yes.

Josh Hawley (41:37)

And Facebook was willing to take that?

Sarah Wynn Williams (41:39)

Yes. There was a lot of discussion about this, and ultimately, yes.

Josh Hawley (41:44)

I mean, this is. This is extraordinary. This is exactly contrary to what Facebook has represented for years here. They're willing to build data centers, store data in China. They are willing explicitly to give the Chinese government access to it. And if that means that American user data is also compromised, they're willing to do that, too. Now he's on Joe Rogan and says that he is. He is Mr. Free Speech. He is Mr. Maga. He is a. He's a whole new man. And his company is.

Jon Favreau (42:10)

It's a whole.

Josh Hawley (42:11)

They're. They're a whole new company. Do you buy this latest reinvention of Mark Zuckerberg?

Sarah Wynn Williams (42:16)

Senator, there are two things. If he is such a fan of freedom of speech, why is he trying to silence me? And the other thing is that this is a man who wears many different costumes. When I was there, he, you know, wanted the president of China to name his first child. He was learning Mandarin. That was, you know, he was censoring to his heart's content. Now his new costume is MMA fighting or whatever, you know, free speech. We don't know what the next costume's going to be, but it'll be something different. It's whatever gets him closest to power.

Jon Favreau (42:57)

Ouch. What'd you make of Sarah Wynn Williams testimony? And I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the book yet or read some of the reviews.

Ryan Broderick (43:07)

I haven't had a chance to look at the book, but I will say I love Josh Hawley's I just heard this for the first time voice. Very believable. Wow, that's extraordinary. I can't believe what I'm hearing for the first time right now. And I do love that he has got all of the worst. All of the reasons he's doing this are so petty and awful. But it's still useful, I guess.

Jon Favreau (43:27)

I know. I hate that, but I'll Take it.

Ryan Broderick (43:30)

But I will say I was. I was genuinely very shocked that this was involving China. I mean, so much of, like, my own reporting on Meta products over the years has been focused on, you know, South Asia, Southeast Asia, Latin America, you know, places where they're really doing some serious, you know, social harm. I had no idea the extent to which Meta was involved with the ccp. Like, that actually really surprised me.

Jon Favreau (43:52)

The book is wild. And look, she has all the, you know, memos, emails, Facebook messages to back it up. But they were. They offered the ccp, like, custom tools that they would build them to surveil their own citizens. Dissidents in other countries, including our country in Taiwan, in Hong Kong, activists like, all of it. They built. They, like, built a physical pipe to connect the United States and China, even though they were warned that. That, like, the Chinese government could use it to spy in the United States.

Ryan Broderick (44:27)

That's unreal. I mean, I've definitely heard of activists in Taiwan and Hong Kong, like, you know, pre Covid talking about not wanting to use matter products because of fears about that. But I just. To see the extent of it actually is surprising because, I mean, it definitely makes it clear that, like, Mark Zuckerberg's, like, new, like, jiu Jitsu turn is, like, not anything, you know, other than trying to get the Republicans off his back.

Jon Favreau (44:52)

I also. The book made me realize that the turn isn't anything because he's always been someone who. And this is a lot of those guys and the tech founders, but they're authoritarians at heart, right? Like that. Like, in. In the sense that they run their companies. Like, you know, everyone's gonna bow down to me and do whatever I say. And I don't get, like, they treat their employees like shit and all that, but also the way they view politics and government and media is. It's all just getting in the way. And democracy's messy, and everyone making decisions together is messy, and thinking about what harms you may cause is just, like, a waste of time, and it's inefficient, and they are geniuses, and if you just let them cook, they will fix all the world's problems. And everyone else should just be happy about that.

Ryan Broderick (45:40)

Yeah. I mean, Zuckerberg is, I think, the best example of this, of someone who. Who, you know, let's take him at his word, which is in the beginning, this. He believed that, like, global connection was a net positive. And as they discovered it wasn't as, like, the world screamed back at them. It's not. They kept Going so like at this point, like he has no excuse, like they, they are clearly in some sort of long term data or AI play. And actually that was a really fascinating part of the testimony today, which was the role that Meta had with the launch of Deep Seeking.

Jon Favreau (46:12)

Yes.

Ryan Broderick (46:12)

Which totally surprised me also, like all of this has actually not been on my radar, I have to confess.

Jon Favreau (46:18)

And it's one of the reasons I believe that Sarah decided to like write the book and speak out, because she's now works in some of, on, on the, some of the AI ethical issues and is worried that like we're going to head into the AI era with Meta doing the same that they did in the social media era.

Ryan Broderick (46:36)

So that is my, that's actually been my long term read on AI to begin with, which is that like, like if you think all the way Back to like 2005, 2006, when like social platforms are turning online, they were offering people a less chaotic, less anarchic version of the Internet that you could like put your credit card number into and like talk to your real life friends on. And now we're in the same spot where like the social platforms of the 2000s, 2010s are total junk and they're being filled up with AI content. And so now the AI companies are going, well, actually you can do everything you want to do inside of our AI walled garden. I think it's the exact same move.

Jon Favreau (47:12)

Oh yeah. And doesn't seem like we're going to be taking any of the lessons we've learned or haven't learned from the social media experiment and apply them to the AI.

Ryan Broderick (47:23)

So I've, I've been dating several Instagram AI bots. So like, I'm fine with this. I'm totally fine with it. It's fine for me, but yeah, other people, I'm learning.

Jon Favreau (47:30)

You still believe you'll find love. And even though you're just playing the.

Ryan Broderick (47:33)

Field now, hey, you know, you learn the right prompts, you're good to go. Like, that's, that's the, that's the AI age. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (47:39)

Yeah. Okay, one more thing. I want to talk about the hands off protests that exploded across the country over the weekend. I saw that you wrote you didn't really know they were happening and you're extremely online. I will admit I did not know they were happening. Now I, no way. I was, I know. And I, I, I felt bad about it because I'm like, politics is, is a big part of my job. Most of my job now I was on, I was On a family vacation last week. So I was gone Wednesday through Sunday, but I still was, like, keeping up with everything. And I'm on Twitter all the time, and I didn't find them anywhere until suddenly they were happening. And then I saw it everywhere. What did you find out about why they didn't sort of spread in the channels that we would have expected?

Ryan Broderick (48:23)

Yeah. So I admitted to my readers, like, look, I didn't know these were happening, and I live in New York City. I didn't hear about this until the night before. And so I asked everybody, how did you guys know about it? And some people were a little rude to me. One person said. One person called me a brunch liberal, which I thought was pretty funny.

Jon Favreau (48:40)

Devastating.

Ryan Broderick (48:41)

Yeah, devastating. But the answers that I. The polite answers I received were really fascinating. A lot of my readers told me that their boomer parents told them about them.

Jon Favreau (48:52)

Oh.

Ryan Broderick (48:53)

Which is super interesting. A lot of local Facebook groups, some Blue Sky. Some read it, but you have. It was people who are primarily really plugged into activist spaces on those sites, but it was the local news news Facebook pages, local Facebook groups, some like, some newsletters, like, just some like, kind of like liberal nonprofit newsletters that people are subscribed to. So it was a very different kind of thing that I think we've been trained to expect. And honestly, I think kind of cool. Like, I think it's a cool way forward for this stuff. But it definitely took me by surprise.

Jon Favreau (49:30)

Well, it's interesting you mentioned Facebook and boomer parents, because reading through the coverage of some of the rallies, I noticed that they were just. They skewed older. And there was some commentary where people were like, I don't see a lot of, like, Gen Z folks at these rallies. And then, you know, other people said, yeah, they were. They were there. But I, you know, when I think back to even 2017 resistance, it is like these, you know, it's the wine moms. Sure. And sort of older msnbc, watching parents that I do think, like, that's what started it. Those are the people that kind of started. And then it grew from there. I do wonder what it means, like, going forward for organizing, because you do want, you know, to get the word out to younger people when you're trying to organize rallies like this in an opposition movement.

Ryan Broderick (50:24)

So I've been. I've been thinking about the hands off protests in. In the context of Brat Summer, which I think is like, a really fascinating dynamic where. And. And I actually wouldn't sort of think of it in terms of like young people versus old people. But actually like a problem that actually you kind of alluded to it at the top today of like, how do we understand popularity? How do we understand what the Internet is now? And like, is a TikTok view equivalent to a Facebook view? Like, is a TikTok meme the same size as like a boomer Facebook page? Like chain letter? And, and, and I think the social media companies want us to think yes, but I think if you look at like actual political manifestations based on this stuff, like they're not. I like boomers like will come out and they're going to make like the rudest signs you've ever seen in your life and they're going to spend all day out there. And like the Brad summer kids, like, aren't probably going to have that level of intensity. At least they didn't.

Jon Favreau (51:24)

It's also distinguished probably by the way each of the platforms work. Like, if you were organizing a rally, it seems like it would be easier to organize on Facebook than it is on. Than it would be on TikTok. Just because the way the algorithm is and how, you know, you're getting individual videos one after another on TikTok, but you're not, it seems like it would be harder to say, here's where this rally is. Spread the word. We're going to. You know, I don't know, am I wrong about that or.

Ryan Broderick (51:53)

You're not wrong. And so indivisible, I think was one of the main orgs behind Hands off. But there was a whole bunch. And one of the smarter things they did was the only documentation that they really have is a Google Doc which says like three things that they care about. And then they were using mobile mobilized mobilize. Yeah. So they were using like an event tracking platform and a Google Doc and you could basically do a hands off protest wherever you wanted. And I think when you give people those kinds of tools and then they just throw them into the localized networks that are already on Facebook or already on Instagram or newsletters or whatever, you're going to see it pop off because, like people can just do what they want now. So the decentralization I think is like pretty key going forward.

Jon Favreau (52:39)

I think it is key especially at the early stages because I think getting a bunch of different, you know, local chapters all over the country in different parts, with people organizing around whatever issue they want to organize around, like just to sort of start getting the muscles working again, I think is important. And then when you want to organize it into something more Cohesive, you know, you can do that down the road. But I thought that, I do think that decentralization is really helpful to start because I think people don't want necessarily to be like part of a top down thing that they have to join that's, you know, the center of it, which is like far away from them and that they, they can't really see and don't know.

Ryan Broderick (53:16)

I was thinking about doing one where you had to, like, buy an NFT to join the. I thought that'd be kind of cool.

Jon Favreau (53:21)

Look, I mean, if, if, if Soros can just get all these, pay all these protesters at once and organize, I.

Ryan Broderick (53:27)

Was gonna ask, are you guys getting the Soros? Yeah, mine aren't coming in anymore. I don't know if I did something.

Jon Favreau (53:33)

We are Soros funded and therefore, you know, we do control the global economy.

Ryan Broderick (53:37)

Okay, cool.

Jon Favreau (53:38)

Ryan Roderick, thank you so much for joining Offline. This was really fun. Everyone go subscribe to Garbage Day, if you don't already. It's a fantastic newsletter and you also have a podcast.

Ryan Broderick (53:49)

Yeah, Panic World. If you liked the frazzled sound of my voice talking about the end of the world, you'll like Panic World. It's the same idea, so you can find that anywhere you listen to stuff. But yeah, thank you. This was super. You know, for a conversation about the erosion of American democracy, this was pretty fun.

Jon Favreau (54:05)

We try to keep it light, you know. Yeah, yeah. All right, Ryan, take care. Thank you. Thank you. All right, before we go, some quick housekeeping. If you haven't checked out Crooked's newest series, Shadow Kingdom, God's Banker, now is the time to do so. It all starts with a tip to journalist Nicolo Minoni from an old friend, one that pulls him deep into the story of Vatican banker Roberto Calvi, who was found hanging under a London Bridge in 1982. Officials called it a suicide, but Nicolo isn't so sure. Was Calvi laundering Mafia money through the Vatican Bank? From there, things escalate quickly. An Italian warehouse raid uncovers a far right society plotting a coup, toppling Italy's government and forcing Calvi into a corner. Just as he turns to the Vatican for protection, an assassination attempt on the Pope shakes the church to its core. What happens next? Listen to Shadow Kingdom, God's Banker now, wherever you get your podcasts or binge all episodes now@cricket.com friends or on the Shadow Kingdom Apple podcast feed. Nicola also emailed us to let us know that Shadow Kingdom is number one in the charts in Italy. On the charts. So pretty good. Check it out. It's a great, great series. Also, one more thing. This month we're offering a 30 day free trial of Crooked's friends of the Pod subscription. No commitment, just a full month of ad free listening and exclusive content. Totally free subscribing to Friends of the Pod is the best way to support our mission of building a progressive media counterweight to the right. With your subscription you'll get ad free episodes of Offline. This show, Love it or Leave it. Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. Plus exclusive shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. You'll also be able to join our Discord community where you can process and discuss the news with fellow listeners all around the world. Sign up@cricket.com friends or directly through Apple Podcasts on the Pod Save America feed to start your free 30 day trial. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau along with Max Fisher. The show is produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Ilic Frank. Jordan Kantor is our Sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglin. Delon Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrian Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Right Writers Guild of America East.