Shocking Facebook Secrets Revealed, JD Vance Meme Wars, and a $10,000 Conspiracy Bet

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau – Episode Summary Title: Shocking Facebook Secrets Revealed, JD Vance Meme Wars, and a $10,000 Conspiracy Bet
Release Date: March 13, 2025
Host: Jon Favreau
Guest: Zach Mack, Award-Winning Podcast Producer

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Introduction

In this episode of Offline with Jon Favreau, hosted by Crooked Media, Jon delves into the intricate relationships between technology, society, and personal narratives. The episode is structured around three main topics: explosive revelations from a new Facebook whistleblower, the ongoing meme wars involving JD Vance, and an intimate conversation with Zach Mack about his personal battle against conspiracy theories within his family.

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1. Shocking Facebook Secrets Revealed

Timestamp: [03:07] – [21:13]

Overview: Jon Favreau and co-host Max Fisher discuss the explosive memoir released by Sarah Wynn Williams, the former Director of Global Public Policy at Facebook (now Meta). Williams' memoir details her experiences and brings to light severe allegations against Meta’s leadership, including Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, and Joel Kaplan.

Key Points:

• Sexual Harassment Allegations:

  • Williams alleges inappropriate behavior involving Sheryl Sandberg and Joel Kaplan.
  • Example Quote: “In one memo, Facebook's own leadership stated... Joel Kaplan changed to requests for data from a government that does not respect international standards for human rights.” [04:14]

• Cooperation with Chinese Censors:

  • Zuckerberg is accused of misleading congressional committees about Meta’s cooperation with Chinese government censorship.
  • Williams filed a whistleblower complaint with the SEC, claiming that Meta was willing to provide China access to private user data, compromising dissidents in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.
  • Example Quote: “Mark Zuckerberg will shut down your Facebook page or your Instagram account if Xi Jinping dangles money in front of him to do it.” [12:27]

• Impact on Democracy and Human Rights:

  • Meta’s actions are portrayed as facilitating oppressive regimes, particularly in China, thereby undermining democracy and human rights.
  • Max Fisher emphasizes the severity: “Some of the details in this book... are far and away the worst things that Meta has ever done.” [05:24]

• Comparisons to Previous Whistleblowers:

  • Williams is distinguished from Francis Haugen by her insider perspective, providing a deeper look into Meta’s leadership.
  • Example Quote: “Sarah Wynn Williams is the first person who has ever given us a glimpse inside the inner sanctum, like the shadowy inner circle of the leadership...” [06:01]

Discussion: The hosts express profound concern over Meta’s alleged ethical breaches, highlighting the potential global implications of a tech giant's collaboration with authoritarian regimes. They also discuss the personal toll these revelations take on individuals like Williams who come forward, facing significant financial and legal risks.

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2. JD Vance Meme Wars and Democratic Strategy

Timestamp: [30:16] – [43:40]

Overview: Jon and Max transition to a lighter yet politically charged topic: the proliferation of JD Vance memes and the Democratic Party's struggle to effectively engage in the modern meme-driven digital landscape.

Key Points:

• JD Vance Memes Analysis:

  • Various meme formats mocking JD Vance, such as the "baby face" and "giant head" iterations.
  • Example Quote: “The JD Vance memes—like his giant head or tiny face—are significant because they undermine the image that Republicans aim to project.” [30:19]

• Democrats' Challenges with Virality:

  • The Democratic Party's attempts to create viral content often result in cringe-worthy outcomes, failing to resonate authentically with audiences.
  • Example Quote: “Choose your fighter video... why has it come back? It doesn't seem effective.” [31:00]

• Authenticity vs. Strategy:

  • Contrasting Democratic strategies with figures like Bernie Sanders, who maintain authenticity without heavily relying on meme culture.
  • Example Quote: “Bernie Sanders is authentic. He's just talking like he is who he is.” [35:31]

• Impact of Memes on Public Perception:

  • Memes can be a double-edged sword, potentially diminishing or enhancing political messaging based on their execution and authenticity.
  • Example Quote: “If the Democratic Party establishment engages in the meme war, you've lost definitionally, because it comes across as inauthentic.” [38:30]

Discussion: Jon and Max critique the Democratic Party's efforts to juggle traditional political messaging with the demands of internet virality. They argue that embracing memes often leads to strategies that feel forced or out of touch, contrasting this with the more organic and effective approaches seen in other political figures. The conversation underscores the importance of authenticity and understanding of digital culture in modern political discourse.

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3. Zach Mack on a $10,000 Conspiracy Bet with His Father

Timestamp: [45:47] – [68:02]

Overview: Award-winning podcast producer Zach Mack joins Jon Favreau to discuss his deeply personal journey confronting his father's descent into conspiracy theories through a $10,000 bet. This segment sheds light on the broader issue of how conspiracy theories can fracture families and the challenges of attempting to extricate loved ones from misinformation.

Key Points:

• The Bet:

  • Zach challenged his father to a bet on the validity of his conspiracy predictions. The challenge was $10,000 on 10 of his father’s predictions coming true within a year.
  • All predictions, such as martial law in the U.S., an EMP wiping out digital communication, and the conviction of top Democrats for treason, failed, resulting in Zach winning the bet.
  • Example Quote: “None of it came true and he was 0 for 10 on his bet.” [46:08]

• Family Dynamics:

  • The conspiracy beliefs have strained relationships, particularly with Zach’s mother and sister, leading to conflicts over views and personal matters.
  • Example Quote: “My mom feels like she lives in a house with a person she can't share reality with.” [60:15]

• Approach to Addressing Conspiracies:

  • Initially, Zach attempted to confront his father with facts and right information, which proved ineffective.
  • Transitioned to an empathetic approach, aiming to understand his father's motivations and emotional drivers behind his beliefs.
  • Example Quote: “It was more about being empathetic, being curious, really trying to understand why these ideas were appealing to him.” [55:28]

• Impact on Personal Life:

  • Zach reflects on the emotional difficulty of producing the podcast series, highlighting that many listeners share similar struggles with family members.
  • Example Quote: “My story is not unique. This is just happening all over the country in thousands and thousands of households.” [65:27]

• Future Bets and Continuing Efforts:

  • Despite losses, Zach remains committed to helping his father by proposing another bet with conditions to control his media diet if he loses again.
  • Example Quote: “If you have lost 20 straight predictions... maybe I know what I'm talking about.” [62:26]

Discussion: The conversation with Zach Mack offers an intimate look into the personal battles families face when dealing with conspiracy theories. It underscores the complexity of changing deeply held beliefs and the importance of empathy over confrontation. Zach emphasizes that while facts alone may not suffice, understanding and patience can gradually influence one's perspective. This segment resonates with many listeners who face similar familial challenges in the age of misinformation.

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Conclusion

This episode of Offline with Jon Favreau masterfully intertwines high-stakes revelations about Meta's unethical practices, the nuanced challenges of political meme warfare, and a heartfelt narrative of personal struggle against conspiracy theories. Through these discussions, Jon Favreau provides listeners with a multifaceted exploration of how technology, politics, and personal relationships intersect in our modern digital landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• Max Fisher on Meta's Allegations:
  “Sarah Wynn Williams is the first person who has ever given us a glimpse inside the inner sanctum... like a country in the world.” [06:01]

• Zach Mack on Empathy:
  “It was more about being empathetic, being curious, really trying to understand why these ideas were appealing to him.” [55:28]

• Jon Favreau on Authentic Messaging:
  “Know who you are, know what your view of the world is, then figure out the best way to get the message out.” [39:44]

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Recommended for Listeners:
For those interested in the intersection of technology, politics, and personal narratives, this episode offers deep insights and relatable stories. Whether you're concerned about the ethical practices of major tech companies, frustrated with political strategies, or grappling with familial conflicts over misinformation, this episode provides valuable perspectives and thoughtful discussions.

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This summary aims to provide a comprehensive overview of the episode's key discussions and themes, enriched with direct quotes and structured sections for clarity and engagement.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Max Fisher]

Oh yeah, Nice sheets from there.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Max Fisher]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Zach Mack]

Quint.com offline My story is not unique. This is just happening all over the country in thousands and thousands of households. And in the two weeks since this story has come out, you know, I've gotten like 500 plus emails and DMs all from people who are going, I'm going through the exact same thing. Like my story is the exact same as yours. My, my father and my mother believe the exact same things. And it's, it's overwhelming to see how many people are, are wrestling with the same thing.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Favreau.

[Max Fisher]

I'm Max Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

And you just heard from today's guest, award winning podcast producer Zach Mack. So last week Zach reached out about a story he just did for this American Life and NPR's Embedded podcast about a $10,000 bet he made with his dad, who has gone way down the right wing conspiracy rabbit hole. I will not spoil the whole thing, but I wanted to talk to Zach because the story that came from all of this is, I thought, some of the most compelling empathetic reporting I've heard about what conspiracy rabbit holes can do to a family. And so invited Zach on, we talked about his reporting, got an update on his effort to chip away at his father's conspiracy theories. It was a Great conversation.

[Max Fisher]

It's nice to hear a kind of new approach to this problem we've all been dealing with in one way or another for the last 10 years, which is how to deal with people, you know, or family members who are falling down these rabbit holes. And I kind of appreciate him making not a game out of it exactly, but it feels like it's less just about, like, can you pull people out or not? And more about how do you. How do you live with people?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And it is a very. I would say it's a. It's. When I listen to the series, it's more emotional than you expect. Just because it's a tough thing, I'm sure, like, and it sort of kind of torn their family apart in a little way. But anyway, so tune into that. It was a great conversation. Before that. We have a new Facebook whistleblower.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, my God.

[Jon Favreau]

On Tuesday, Sarah Wynn Williams, the former director of global public policy at Facebook, published an explosive memoir about the many years she spent working closely with the most senior leadership at Meta. There are allegations of sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior involving then COO Sheryl Sandberg and VP of Public Policy Joel Kaplan. Allegations that Mark Zuckerberg knowingly misled a Senate congressional committee about Facebook's willingness to cooperate with Chinese censors. And plenty of new revelations about just how far Mark was willing to go to get Facebook into the Chinese market. In fact, when Williams also filed a whistleblower complaint with the SEC before the book was published, alleging that that when trying to enter the Chinese market, Facebook was willing to give the Chinese Communist Party access to the private user data of dissidents in China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.

[Max Fisher]

Jeez.

[Jon Favreau]

In one memo, Facebook's own leadership stated that one of the cons. There were some pros and cons. One of the cons of the company doing content moderation for the ccp, which was one of the plans, it was, do we let China do the moderation themselves or do we do it for them?

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

One of the cons of Facebook doing it would be that, quote, facebook employees will be responsible for directly responding to requests for data that could lead to death, torture and incarceration. A line that Joel Kaplan changed to requests for data from a government that does not respect international standards for human rights.

[Max Fisher]

That's why he makes the big bugs. He says, let's not admit to doing mass international crimes and murder on behalf of Xi Jinping because we think it might make us some money. Which is. It's. It's crazy that they wrote that down. Yeah, that's how far they got with.

[Jon Favreau]

This one con is just they're not up to the standards. But the rest of us would like.

[Max Fisher]

The standards, have not killed. Killing people deliberately for money.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's the one. So as a programming note, we're working on getting Sarah on the show.

[Max Fisher]

Oh my God, it would be great.

[Jon Favreau]

I know so. I think so. So stay tuned. So we're not going to spoil the whole thing here, but Max, as someone who has spent a lot of time reporting on Facebook slash Meta, what do you think about the allegations that have been reported so far out of this book and how do they compare, in your view, to the allegations brought by Francis Haugen few years ago?

[Max Fisher]

I. Huge. I think that some of the details in this book that we know of so far, especially some of the things with regards to China, are far and away the worst things that Meta has ever done. Allegedly, like far like beyond even abetting, knowingly abetting genocide. And like that's not just me. Like, I think Meta thinks that they, I don't know if you saw that they are openly saying that they are trying to legally halt distribution of the book in the United States, which they have never done before. And being that open about saying we want to be the bad guy, speech suppressor villain goes to show you that they are like really terrified about what's in this book. But to answer your question about what's different we've gotten from people like Frances Haugen, we've gotten like leaks from people who are mid level in the company. She had a lot of documents, a lot of reports internal in the company. Sarah Wynne Williams is the first person who has ever given us a glimpse inside the inner sanctum, like the shadowy inner circle of the leadership of arguably one of the most powerful country companies. It's kind of like a country in the world. I mean this is kind of like getting a high level defector in the Cold War from like the Soviet Politburo Standing Committee, like it's that big of a deal. We've never had someone speak out because either they're in it for life or, or they get these like ironclad NDAs when they leave or often they just get a ton of money and they have just trailing assets forever and ever after they leave. So the fact that she is willing to take on this level of financial and legal risk in order to get this information out, I think shows that she really cares about it. And the fact that Meta is willing to go so far. Have you, have you started the book at all.

[Jon Favreau]

I am almost done with the book.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, really? Oh, okay.

[Jon Favreau]

And you know, you know me in reading.

[Max Fisher]

I know. Well, now that we've done the offline challenge, you can't get enough.

[Jon Favreau]

But like, I have been unable to spend my free time on almost anything else.

[Max Fisher]

Really.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. She just. Here's why it is. First of all, she's a fantastic writer. It is written as more of like a drama than it is a. Like details of their policy. All of that's in there. And she's got the goods in terms of. She's got emails, she's got memos, but it is written as a compelling narrative. So it's an easy read. And it's also, I do think what you said about Haugen versus her, like the. It. You know, Francis Haugen had more about the, you know, the policies, the algorithm, like how. And this was much more about how Cheryl, Mark, Joel, Elliot Shrage.

[Max Fisher]

I'm not sure how to. I know you. He's the head of comms.

[Zach Mack]

Basically.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. Yeah. How all these people operate. And she, you know, she started in 2011, she left in 2017.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

She was fired in 2017. This is the meta's pushback is basically she was fired for poor performance and unfounded allegations, which is a sexual harassment claim that she files at one point.

[Max Fisher]

That's so crazy to me that even now meta spin is, well, we had to fire her because she complained about her boss sexually harassing her. That's your comm strategy.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, in so far. Cuz, you know, I got into this on. On Twitter with. Because I had tweeted about the Washington Post story about this.

[Max Fisher]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

About the. And the Washington Post. The first story was about China. And the China. There's a lot more than just China. But that's the. I think that's the big news in here. Yeah. And so I tweeted about it and then Andy Stone, who's their. One of their comms people, was like, let's be clear about what happened. We were very clear that we wanted to get into China and we're not now, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, well, I don't think that's a denial. But then I was looking at his. And they've got all these people at Facebook tweeting. I've known Joel Kaplan for a while and he's a mentor and he's a good person and blah, blah. And. And this doesn't reflect anything that I. And I know Sarah too. But none of them have. But none of them have denied her stories. Some of them have, like, tried to say that some of the. The details of the story are off or whatever, but they're. All the statements look like they were written by an AI chatbot, you know, or. Which is like, I have known Joel for a while. He is a great mentor. This. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this does not reflect the faith. Which means that I think they're.

[Max Fisher]

I'm nervous.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Max Fisher]

Yes. Oh, of course. I mean, it would be like. It would be like if everybody at Crooked Media suddenly tweeted the same thing about how you have an incredibly healthy relationship to your phone and never look at it.

[Jon Favreau]

This does not reflect the Jon Favreau phone relationship that I've come to know.

[Max Fisher]

Who has a totally sane, reasonable amount of coffee every day.

[Jon Favreau]

So, I mean, the China stuff is.

[Max Fisher]

It's. It is wild. It. I truly thought I could not get any angrier at this company. And the brazenness with it is selling out people around the world. But I, I don't know if you want to get into it, but the. Okay, so do you want. I can go through some of the stuff from the SEC complaint. Okay, so this is all in an SEC complaint that Sarah Williams filed separately from the book, I think maybe last year and provided a ton of documentation for us. It's been reported on. Basically, Zuckerberg offered to turn Meta into Xi Jinping's personal Orwellian police state, like enforcer and mass surveiller, and then lied to Congress about it for years and years that he was doing it. So some of the things that he was offering China proactively to do, proactively censor Chinese users and implicitly help Xi Jinping to monitor and track people within China by hosting user data within China, which everybody knows means the Chinese government can access it. And just to be clear, this is not just like, oh, China gets to set some moderation rules. Like, the way censorship works in China is they have this whole agency that delivers basically like a stock ticker of running diktats constantly throughout the day that tells you what to promote, what the news is, what the facts are, what, like to suppress. And they were like, yes, we will be happy to do that and participate openly in your mass censorship regime. He agreed to crack down on the account of a high profile Chinese dissident living in the United States. Yeah, Miles Guo, who I would like to brag, I correctly guessed who it was based on. I read the complaint and it was like, I think this is Miles Guo. He's a Like, he's a weird guy. He's a billionaire and a big Trump hero.

[Jon Favreau]

He's like a Steve Bannon friend.

[Max Fisher]

Very tight with Steve Bannon. But like the CCP hates him because he was like among the elite. And then he left and lived in the United States.

[Jon Favreau]

So I got to that, I've just got to that part in the book. Like, do you know how bad that was? So they, this was.

[Max Fisher]

He lives in the United States, he's been in China.

[Jon Favreau]

So Facebook shuts down his page for Xi Jinping. And then when the New York Times finds out about it and asks them, they say, oh, this was an accident. We don't know how this was an error, blah, blah, blah. But, but Sarah has like the communication with them in the, in the Chinese government that's like, oh, well, you know, we can shut down his. One option is we can shut down his page if that's what you want.

[Max Fisher]

That's fucking nuts. So to be clear, Mark Zuckerberg will shut down your Facebook page or your Instagram account if Xi Jinping dangles money in front of him to do it. And then we'll lie about it.

[Jon Favreau]

But you know what? Now that Donald Trump's elected, Mark Zuckerberg is very excited that we're getting back to our roots of free speech.

[Max Fisher]

It's so happy to have the free speech.

[Jon Favreau]

I have to say.

[Max Fisher]

It's.

[Jon Favreau]

I never thought Mark Zuckerberg was a good guy, but this, this book, it's.

[Max Fisher]

It'S so beyond the pale.

[Jon Favreau]

And Sheryl Sandberg too. It has like, radicalized me about how they are. Well, the saber stuff is just like, yeah, there's. We can talk a lot about this. You can tell I'm very excited about this book because I don't even know where to begin. But the Sheryl Sandberg stuff is disturbing. And I'll, I'll read. From the New York Times review of the book, Wynn Williams is aghast to discover that Sandberg has instructed her 26 year old assistant to buy lingerie for both of them, budget be damned. The total cost is $13,000 for the ling. During a long drive in Europe, the assistant and Sandberg take turns sleeping in each other's laps, stroking each other's hair. And on the 12 hour flight home on a private jet, a pajama clad Sandberg claims the only bed on the plane and repeatedly demands that Sarah Wynne Williams quote, come to bed. So she denies her. And then, and then Sheryl Sandberg is miffed about this. Yikes. And after they land Now, I'm just saying, from reading the book, she, like, goes up to her and is like, you should have said yes and come and slept in the bed or whatever. So very weird Sheryl Sandberg stuff. Yeah, weird Joel Kaplan stuff.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

And aside from the, like, you know, she was worried about harassment. Also, the. The. The author, Sarah Williams, goes on maternity leave, and during maternity leave, they're like, asking her to work. She also has horrible health complications. She is, like, bleeding, and it's really, really bad. And she almost dies a couple times, like, post childbirth. Yeah. And through it all, they're like, okay, so let's just, like, just keep the work going. Like, the work culture is so.

[Max Fisher]

It's intense.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, my God.

[Max Fisher]

And it's not. And obviously it. Lots of big companies have intense work cultures. You're an executive, and sometimes you get crazy requests from your boss. And, like, that's not unusual. But I think what is important here is taking away that these are people who have no. Based on what she has described, people have no sense of humanity. It's just like, abject cruelty and, like, weirdness. And it's like, these are people who are making decisions on all of our behalfs secretly, sometimes at the behest of hostile foreign governments and then lying to us about it.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Max Fisher]

You did.

[Zach Mack]

You seem.

[Max Fisher]

There's a spring in your step. You seem more aware of your patterns.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I am. I am. It's always great. Love, love chatting with Jamie every week. Therapy's wonderful. You should try it. Even if you don't think you need it, you do. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a w wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com offline to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com offline. There's this story in the book about a Facebook employee who was in the Facebook leadership in Brazil. And Brazil, like, pass some tough laws on the day.

[Max Fisher]

Really, really good regulations.

[Jon Favreau]

And they arrest this guy, right? And he goes to jail and then writes a note to Facebook and was like, I'm doing great. I'm here for the, you know, for Facebook and free speech, whatever it is, you know. And Mark is like, well, I'm gonna post about this. And decides to post like, look at this wonderful story about this. Instead of doing anything to get him out of jail. Just wanted the story.

[Max Fisher]

Wow.

[Jon Favreau]

And then he's at the APEC conference of world leaders in 2016, and the guy who's been freed from jail goes to meet Mark, and Mark apparently looks at him and just is sort of like, uh huh, yeah, thank you. And then walks away like, doesn't know who he is. Was told who he is and was like, not really interested.

[Max Fisher]

Give a shit. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Ends up going to a meeting with Obama at APEC.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

It's 2016. This is after the election and Obama's about to leave.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And Mark Zuckerberg comes out of that meeting and apparently gets back on the plane with Sarah and all the other people and is so angry with Barack Obama for telling him, hey, the election, Facebook's role in the election. Like, you guys are going to need to change things ahead of the next election because it's, you know, I think it was weaponized by Trump and all that kind of stuff. And Zuckerberg's just like, he doesn't understand and who does he think he is? And he's a lame duck. Anyway, like, all this, he was so mad because. Because he's not used to anyone, like, actually criticizing him.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

He's at that point, he was.

[Max Fisher]

One of the details that I saw in a bunch of the reviews is that it's widely known in the company that when you play board games with Mark Zuckerberg, you let him win. Which, first of all, it's a weird thing for him to be doing, playing board games with all of his employees. Like, you're a grown up. Yeah, Mark. And can I give you a couple more of the. I actually did not even finish the list of all the things that China, that Facebook is doing to get into China. Zuckerberg wrote a letter to China's deputy propaganda minister, someone we definitely want Mark Zuckerberg to be in touch with, saying that Facebook had coordinated with the local Chinese consulate to, quote, take down terrorist sites that are potentially dangerous for China and nobody knows what that means. But again, taking down websites at the behest of the Chinese Communist Party. But the, the biggest one, the. I truly think the most horrif thing I have ever heard of meta doing is that they agreed in 2014 to give the Chinese government. You mentioned this access to user data, not just in China, but in Hong Kong.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

And the really important context is this is in the middle of a like huge apocal fight over the future of Hong Kong, which had been an autonomous democracy for a very, very long time. Beijing is trying very hard to encroach on that. There is a huge, like Hong Kong wide protest movement to try to fight back against it. I was reporting a lot on Hong Kong at this point was legitimately unclear who was going to prevail in that and whether Hong Kongers would be able to save their democracy from Beijing. And what Mark Zuckerberg is saying, implicitly, he is saying, I will help you, Xi Jinping, crush democracy, human rights and freedom in Hong Kong in exchange for access to your market. So not just like we're not going to have nice moderation rules, but we will actively crush freedom for you.

[Jon Favreau]

And you learn this in the book, that this is not like Facebook leadership. And Mark's just like, like this was a project trying to get into China that Mark was obsessed, became obsessed with and was like personally involved in a way that he was not involved in a lot of other things at the time.

[Max Fisher]

And it was very clear that he was not only willing, but trying very hard to sell all of us out to do it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

And I see no reason to think that he has gotten any less cynical or nihilistic in his pursuits of this.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's last point I'll make on this. Like, it made me realize that there's been a lot of questions swirling. We've, you know, has Mark Zuckerberg changed now? Like, now he's more maga, more Trumpy or like, how did he get. It's sort of like just a mask off thing. Like he's always been like this.

[Max Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

He's always like, it seemed more of, like a, more of an autocrat than.

[Max Fisher]

Someone who's a partner of authoritarians.

[Jon Favreau]

Absolutely. That becomes very clear.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Very clear. In the book he talks about how Andrew Jackson's his favorite president by far. At one point he talked about how why are we dealing with legacy media outlets at all? Like, Facebook should just build our we could be the fifth estate ourselves and just build our own thing. And. And then Sarah Wynn Williams is like, very disturbing. It's gonna be like William Randolph Hearst. And he goes, well, what's the problem with that?

[Max Fisher]

Wow. Really? Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Either not knowing it's awesome or just not. Or thinking it's great.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, no, it's the happy story of a man in a sled. Sorry. It's an Orson Welles deep.

[Jon Favreau]

She says that. She says Rosebud.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And he's like. Doesn't really, really get it.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

Now that I know that she's a movie nerd too, I'm really, I'm.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm excited to talk to her. But anyway, so it's.

[Max Fisher]

I'm horrified what we're gonna learn about this guy.

[Jon Favreau]

It is a. It is a bit of a horrifying read. It's a good read, but it's a bit of a horrifying read as well.

[Max Fisher]

I can't wait to get into it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. All right. Speaking of Chinese Communist Party censorship, it's been a minute since we checked in on TikTok. On Sunday, President Trump told reporters that a sale of the Chinese owned social platform was close and that his administration was in touch with four different potential buyers. As a reminder, on January 19, Trump's first day back in office, the President signed an executive order delaying the implementation of the TikTok ban by 75 days. Which means that unless Trump delays implementation again, ByteDance has until April 5th to accept a bid or face a US ban.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. What do you make of Trump's comments? And like, does deadline matter?

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, I know it looks like the.

[Jon Favreau]

Four buyers are like Oracle's Larry Ellison, Frank McCourt, former Activision CEO Bobby Kotick, and for some reason, Mr. Beast.

[Max Fisher]

So. So when you, when you sent me this, I was like, oh, are we still doing the 75 day deadline? Are we still pretending that that's even a thing? Yeah. So Trump has not said who the four buyers are. Someone asked him and his answer was, quote, all four are good. That was pretty funny.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. He has no idea.

[Max Fisher]

He's also said the US government would get a 50% stake in the company as a finder's fee. Which is like, do we think we want the feds owning TikTok? Although honestly, if we doge TikTok, that might be not so bad. One case of government waste I could get behind cutting.

[Jon Favreau]

He also thinks the government is him now, so it could be just, I think, personal stake in it.

[Max Fisher]

I think that's true. He could think of being Sam. So who are the potential buyers? From previous reporting, we know about two possible offers. One is a $20 billion bid led by a guy named. Frank McCord, is a real estate developer and the former owner of the LA Dodgers. So he has a tech background. And the other is a $30 billion bid led by a guy named Jesse Tinsley, who's the head of a payroll company called Employer.com along with the CEO of a video game company called Roblox. And for some reason, Mr. Beast, these are both huge underbids. Byte, I learned, was just valued at $400 billion, up from $300 billion a year ago. Well, it's nice to know that while Trump may be tanking the entire US economy, at least ByteDance is doing well. That's important is the two pillars of the Trump economy are hostile foreign government propaganda apps and crypto Ponzi schemes.

[Jon Favreau]

That's the foundation of a strong economy.

[Max Fisher]

Absolutely. The stock market is fake, but that's right, the ByteDance, that's what we need. ByteDance, by the way, and China both continue to say, hey, we, we are not selling, so none of this matters. But according to Fox News, the White House is separately pushing a deal for ByteDance not to sell TikTok at all, but rather, to quote unquote, license it to Oracle. The details of which sound like not even licensing TikTok, but rather just continuing to fully own and operate it. But with Oracle overseeing TikTok's US data centers, which you remember kind of already.

[Jon Favreau]

Do, isn't that part of a project that.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, so this, you might remember Texas, which was Tick Tock's big, like, compromise offer with the federal government, I think like a year and a half ago, and was basically.

[Jon Favreau]

Oracle was involved in that too.

[Max Fisher]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

It's.

[Max Fisher]

The idea was that Oracle would oversee their data center. So they're basically just, I think, like pitching that again and hoping Trump will think it is both new and also his idea. And it sounds like that might be working.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I was going to say that seems like a good plan. Unfortunately for them. Yeah, I mean, I think that if the deadline comes and there's no, there's no deal yet, doesn't matter. It's just, what do we think Pambondi is going to be like, oh, no, now I'm going to crack down on this.

[Max Fisher]

I know Congress is going to assert its legal authority. I don't think so. No, I agree.

[Jon Favreau]

I think they're just, I think TikTok.

[Max Fisher]

Is not going away I agree. I think he'll just continue to kick it every 75 days. He loves the drama. He loves getting tossed around. They won't find a solution or they'll do this bullshit, quote unquote licensing deal and I'll call it done.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, enjoy your TikTok kids. While we're on the topic of Trump and big Tech, heck, bit of an interesting announcement from Trump's DOJ this week that they will continue the Biden administration's effort to break up Google in a revised proposal filed Friday with federal judge Amit Mehta, who last year ruled that Google acted illegally to maintain a monopoly in online search. The Department of Justice reaffirms the Biden administration's recommendation that Google change its Android business practices to enable competition and sell off its Chrome web browser. Can you remind everyone what last year's ruling was and what the Trump administration's continuation of this Biden era policy means for the future of Google potential?

[Max Fisher]

So this investigation, this DOJ investigation into Google actually goes back to the Trump first term. This has been going on for a really long time. Huge antitrust case, the first of its kind in the Internet era as the the biggest antitrust case since Microsoft in the 90s brought by both Department of Justice and state AGs argues that Google, like you said, broke the law both by how it secured its Mon monopoly over search and then by how it abused that monopoly to dominate other markets. Like rather than getting people to use Google search by making it a better product so that people would want to use it, they paid tens of billions of dollars to Apple and Samsung to make it the default. And like you see the consequences that and how shitty Google search has become because they don't need to make it a good product anymore because they're monopolistic. The judge agreed with that, issued this huge landmark ruling, this 220 page report detailing all the illegal monopolistic behavior. So that brings us the stage of the trial or the case that we are in now, which is called remedies, which is basically where the government makes its case to this judge for what they think he should do to solve Google's monopolistic behavior. The Biden DOJ asked for several remedies, most of which Trump's DOJ has actually maintained and then it's modified a couple of them. The ones it's maintained are you said it asked the court to force Google to sell Chrome, which is huge. So literally breaking up part of the company also forced Google to stop doing these payments to Apple, Samsung for default Search deals also would have to give rival search companies access to Google's data for 10 years.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah. And that would force Google to either sell Android, which is a smartphone operating system, or bar Google from making its other services mandatory on Android. The Trump DOJ modified this. They're no longer asking Google to be forced to sell Android right away. Rather, they're asking them to change how they use Android. And if the court determines down the line that that hasn't done enough to make the market less monopolistic, then they can force them to sell Android. The big change is that Biden's doj was asking the court to force Google to divest from any AI products that could compete with search. The idea being that that would extend their monopoly in search. And the Trump DOJ just revoked that. Which kind of fits with their desire to blow a lot of money into bullshit AI products.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that does. That does. But other than that. Promising.

[Max Fisher]

It's promising and I think it's important for the future of Google. But there are also a ton of other huge tech antitrust cases coming down the pike and I think this is a really important marker for what's going to happen with those. Including the big case coming against our good pal Mark Zuckerberg at Meta just next month over his arguably monopolistic seizure or purchase of Instagram and WhatsApp.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, can't wait for that.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, neither can Mark, I'm sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Offline is brought to you by fatty 15. Have you heard about C15? It's an essential fatty acid that's naturally found in whole fat dairy products. But over time, our intake of these foods has decreased. Combined with the Natural decline of C15 as we age, many of us aren't getting enough of this important nutrient. Introducing fatty 15's C15 supplement. A simple way to replenish your body with this essential fatty acid. Co founder Dr. Stephanie Van Watson discovered the benefits of C15 while working with the US Navy. Backed by science and supported by over 100 studies, C15 helps support cell function and resiliency and can be a valuable part of your long term health strategy. Fatty 15 is vegan, 100% pure and free from flavors, fillers, allergens or preservatives. Just pure C15 in a gorgeous glass jar. It's designed to fit easily into your life with refills conveniently delivered to your door. Because even your C15 deserves to live the set it and forget it lifestyle. So do yourself a Favor, replenish your C15, restore your health and let yourselves do the heavy lifting with fatty 15. Fatty 15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help you live healthier and longer. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com offline and using code offline at checkout. All right, something more fun before we go. This week in our production meeting, we decided we wanted to talk about the JD Vance memes that I'm sure everyone listening to this pod has probably seen by now. There's the baby face, J.D. vance, the giant head, J.D. vance. Giant head, tiny face, J.D. vance.

[Max Fisher]

I'm partial. I'm partial to J.D. vance. Minion.

[Jon Favreau]

Minion.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, that was good with a little suspenders.

[Jon Favreau]

Many of them are JD Vance demanding a thank you, like he did to Zelensky in the Oval Office. Right. Vance himself embraced the meme. He did, tweeting a picture of his face on the Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the TV meme from once upon a time in Hollywood. Anyway, you can, you can check out all the memes. Check them out. Our conversation quickly turned to the larger meme digital online wars between Democrats and Republicans and why Democrats efforts to compete always seem to result in things like the cringy choose your fighter video. We saw a bunch of House Democrats participate.

[Max Fisher]

The two of these things coming at the same time is a real study. In contrast.

[Jon Favreau]

What do you think about this? We wanted to surface this conversation here, the one that we were having in the meeting, which is why, why does the left seem not great at understanding virality on the Internet?

[Max Fisher]

So I actually don't know that this is an instance of the left, however you want to define that, being bad at the memes and virality, like, this was kind of everywhere in a way that I think actually kind of mattered. Like, as you mentioned, the genesis for all of this was a response to that horrible meeting that Vance and Trump had with Zelensky. They were, they were scolding him for being insufficiently obsequious and, like, were kind of threatening to throw 40 million Ukrainians to the wolves with Russia as punishment for him not sucking up to them enough. Like, clearly they thought, yes, that's what's happened. It's great. It's a great moment. I really spiraled over it. I'm not gonna lie to you.

[Jon Favreau]

Same.

[Max Fisher]

And like, clearly what was important to Trump and Vance was having a moment of getting to be tough guy bullies in front of the camera. Yeah, like, that's what they value from this. They don't care about Ukraine. They don't care about Russia. Maybe they care a little bit about Russia. And like, like, turning this into a meme of J.D. vance's goofy ass face where he looks like a little baby, like, shouting at Zelensky, I think really does something to materially undercut that. Because what these guys care about is image, is perception, is getting to think of themselves as tough guys, is self image. So, like, yes, I. To some extent, J.D. vance kind of, like, maneuvered his way around it effectively by participating in the meme in a way that diffused it a little bit. But the fact that he had to acknowledge it, like, they wanted the big headline out of this and the big public perception of this meeting to be like, wow, these tough guys are standing up to Zelensky, which I don't know why that's supposed to be impressive, but they think it is. And instead, for it to be like, it sure is funny when JD Vance has a big inflated face. Like, I think that's meaningful.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, well, yeah. Oh, I totally agree with that. I think he's very mockable. Not just from a, like, Partizan Democrat perspective. I think he's just a mockable guy. Pretty weird.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

And just whiny all the time. Like, the memes are great because that.

[Max Fisher]

Is, like, they speak to a real truth.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Max Fisher]

That. That is kind of what he' seems like.

[Jon Favreau]

So I. What we were talking about is there's. There was a difference between. Okay, so J.D. vance, I think you can argue smartly, then embraces the meme, tweets the picture and that sort of whatever. Now he's in on the joke. Democrats have done this in the past. Remember, like, the dark Brandon stuff, or let's go, Brandon then became Dark Brandon really overdid it. Right? And then, like, you know, the brat summer, we went through that. And so there's, like, the challenge on the Democratic side or the left is there's, you know, you get made fun of with the meme, then they learn to embrace the meme, but then they, like, beat it to death. Sure.

[Max Fisher]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Then there's, like, dark Brandon merch and this and that, and it's like. Then it becomes not cool. Right? It goes from being, like, cool and edgy to not cool. And, you know, the choose your fighter video, which I'm just, like, it was a trend a while ago.

[Max Fisher]

Like, truly two years ago.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. And, like, why has it come back? And I do think on the Democratic side is a lot right now. There is a lot of, like, we know that we were outmaneuvered in terms of communicating in this new media environment. So now we're going to try all the things that the kids tell us to try. And the kids being their young digital staffers who, like, God bless them, they know a lot about what goes viral and the, and the various trends on the various platforms, like, they get that. But I do think before you, before you get your boss to do that, which I know is also a challenge.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But before you get into it, like, make sure that it fits with your boss's personality and make sure that it doesn't seem like it's a how do you do fellow kids type of thing, which is what you get a lot from Democrats lately.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, I think there's a question of whether the Democratic Party establishment proper should be in the business of stirring up memes at all.

[Jon Favreau]

I think that's a great question. I would probably say no. Here's my example on this. Like, which Democrat has gotten the most attention for tapping into the energy fear that's out there right now over the last months since. Or two months now, however many months since Trump became president again?

[Max Fisher]

A hundred.

[Jon Favreau]

Bernie Sanders. Right. And what has Bernie Sanders been doing? Doing just going out and doing a bunch of rallies.

[Max Fisher]

Right. He's authentic.

[Jon Favreau]

He's just talking like he, like he's not changing anything. He is who he is.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

He's doing his thing. And that doesn't mean that everyone should do what Bernie Sanders is doing. Everyone should do what is comfortable to them.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, if you're the type of person who would rather sit and explain what just happened in Congress today to your followers, then do that. Do it in a setting that makes you feel comfortable. If that setting is with someone else and you're having a conversation, great. If you want to do it direct to camera, do that too. But you've got to like, like it's true that the style of we're going to come out and do a press conference on the Hill with a bunch of people like, yeah, maybe that's over and you can't do that as much anymore. But there's a, there's a space between that and like doing the latest TikTok dance.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm not saying that everyone's doing that. That's just a stand in.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, that was the choose your fighter thing. That was basically a TikTok dance. Why do, like, why do you think AOC did that? She's really someone who gets the Internet. I was really surprised to see her.

[Jon Favreau]

On that because I think what happens when you are unelected and you are going, going, going is. And you're relying on a lot of your staff to tell you, yeah, here's what's, this is cool. Here's what people are doing. It's okay, it's fun. It's. You just do it. Yeah, right. Because you don't have time to like, think about everything. And I, and I get that, but like, and, and everyone's throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. But I do think that there is this view that all virality is good, you know, and it's partly because on the, we're talking about the war for attention on the Republican side. Their belief is, and Trump's belief is negative attention is still good.

[Max Fisher]

Attention, attention.

[Jon Favreau]

And I just don't think that works for us in the same way.

[Max Fisher]

I agree.

[Jon Favreau]

Because they are just a burn it down party.

[Max Fisher]

Right. And we don't want movement of nihilism.

[Jon Favreau]

And so sometimes you get, you know, oh, well, you're making fun of the choose your fighter video. But it broke through and everyone's talking about it and it's like, okay, great that everyone's talking about it. Great that it's viral. Is it viral in a good way?

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Does it, does it help the perception of the Democratic Party or the people who participated in the video? If it didn't, then what was the purpose? Breaking through for the. Breaking through for the sake of breaking through. I don't see a lot of value in that.

[Max Fisher]

So I, I want to talk about both the, like, how the left should engage in the memoirs question, which I think is, is an important one, like it or not, and also where the impulse and the like feeling of an imperative that we have to do that. I think something important to remember is that the, the first presidential candidate or political movement really in this country that we think of as really succeeding at the memoirs was Trump 2016. And that was almost entirely passive. Like, they really tried to brand themselves and Steve Bannon really tried to brand themselves as like, oh, we're the masters of the Internet, we understand how all this works. But when you look at subsequently reported, like, emails between him and Milo Yiannopoulos and like, all the people on the, like, alt right in 2016 who were kind of pushing this online movement to lift up Trump, like, they had no idea what was happening happening. They were really just riding the wave and kind of like, because they were so incompetent at it, they didn't get in front of any of the memes except to just like reshare Things that were already viral, that's basically all they did. And that was enormously successful. And I think the lesson there is that as soon as a party establishment engages in the meme war, you've lost just definitionally, because it comes across as inauthentic. It makes it cringe, like, allow it to surface organically, which is what happened with the JD Vance memes. I don't know who fucking nobody knows who started that.

[Jon Favreau]

I will also say about Trump in 2016, if you go back to the speech when he came down the escalator in June of 2015 and you read it right, he is still talking about the same shit today.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

What's what, right. Where they started, where they did figure out a strategy, is he had a message. We don't like the message, but he has a story to tell. He has a view of the world. He believes in it, or at least he has convinced himself of it, whatever it may be. And he has been consistent that that is his worldview the whole time we've had to deal with him. Same thing with Bernie Sanders on the left.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, it's true.

[Jon Favreau]

Same thing. Barack Obama's like that, right? Like, there's just. It doesn't matter. It's ideology. Partisanship aside, know who you are, know what your view of the world is, then figure out the best way, way to get the message out, which is challenging in this environment. I'm not going to pretend it's not. We've talked about it a million times. But you've gotta, you gotta have something to say and feel confident about it before you then figure out what the best way to get it out there to people is.

[Max Fisher]

And I think the, a lot of the imperative and pressure that people are feeling for the Democrats to like, do the me more. And it's not just like Democratic consultants who are doing it. Like, I feel like if you go online, you see a constant, like, why don't the Democrats push this message or that message? Or like, this is the meme that they should be leaning into, or they should be like, co opting the JD Vance memes. And I think that it is symptomatic of the fact that like, yes, mem Wars, I think, can be kind of effective at pressuring the Trump administration a little bit because they do care about public perception. And it is a place where you can break through and reach a lot of people who are not the hardcore partisans. But I think it's also symptomatic of the fact that we have very few levers Right. Right now.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

There's just very little that anybody in the opposition can do to try to rein in this lawlessness. And the desperation to find someone who can stop Trump, I think is making everybody a little crazy right now. And I think is making us reach for and demand things from the party that are maybe not super helpful. But I think this is also a reminder that we do have some grassroots power here, like doing memes to make fun of Trump. And Vance, I know does not feel like a lot of grassroots power. And it's not, and is definitely not where I would put, put all of the eggs. It's not the basket I would put everything into. But I think that is a reminder that we do have slightly more power than we think, because that kind of thing can matter a little bit.

[Jon Favreau]

Are you saying that posting matters?

[Max Fisher]

I think it, I think posting does a little bit better.

[Jon Favreau]

I know where you're. Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

But I think it's also like the other side of that is being real with ourselves about what the, like Democratic Party establishment can and cannot do right now at a time when they control zero levers of power outside of state governments.

[Jon Favreau]

That, that is, that is right. And I, and I think everyone's trying, still giving everyone a lot of, a lot of leeway here because, and it is early, you know, there's not a midterm. Elections are a while away. So like this, this is the time for everyone to experiment, fail, try something new, whatever. But just something to keep in mind.

[Max Fisher]

But I mean, I think also, like, keep your expectations real for like, what. And I'm saying that to both the people in the party and people outside of this party. Did you see this Bill Burr quote, quote about Elon Musk? I don't. It really, for me, it really distilled, I think the way that a lot of people are tripping themselves up right now and how they think about politics. He was on Fresh Air promoting, I guess he has a new Hulu special. He was talking about Elon Musk. And I want to emphasize this quote is uninterrupted. I'm not abridging anything here. He's talking about the Elon Musso who said, I just refuse to believe it was an accidental two time sig hail. And he does it at a presidential inauguration. This is why I hate liberals. Liberals, liberals have no teeth whatsoever. They just go, oh my God, can you believe this? And then he talked a little bit and then he said, why are we so afraid of this guy who can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag we're all feeling the sense of powerlessness. And I know it's very tempting to be like, if only the Democrats had a spine, they would do the right meme that would stop Elon Musk. But, like, that's not gonna happen.

[Jon Favreau]

No, it's not gonna happen. And also, if you're complaining about that, you should do something to your yourself. Right.

[Max Fisher]

Yes. That's.

[Jon Favreau]

That, that is part of it. And, and it's, it's fine to complain. We all do that. We're all pundits. We're all, for sure, we're all part of it. But, like, just realize you have agency, too.

[Max Fisher]

I, that I think that's the main thing. I want people to come away with that. They like the dichotomy between the JD Vance meme that did, I think, really kind of worked. And I think not for nothing, they've walked back on Ukraine a little bit. And the choose your fighter meme that did not work. It's like, we don't want the Democratic Party establishment doing every everything. There are some things that are better to come from the grass.

[Jon Favreau]

That is very true. All right, in a second, we're going to jump to my conversation with Zach Mack. But before we do some quick housekeeping, we got a new crooked podcast. It's called Shadow Kingdom God's Banker. Here's the, here's the quick and dirty on it. In the summer of 1982, the Vatican's top money man was found dead. Roberto Calvi was at the center of a prolific money laundering scheme that put him in the crosshairs of the Sicilian Mafia, a secret far right chapter of the Freemasons and the Catholic church. And then 40 years after his death was ruled a suicide, there's an investigation into what really happened and who killed God's Banker. That you're gonna have to listen. To find out. Check out the trailer for Shadow Kingdom, God's Banker right now, wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe for episodes starting March 17th. Or better yet, join our friends of the pod community to binge all the episodes that same [e-mail] friends or on the Shadow Kingdom Apple podcast feed. After the break, Zach Mack on conspiracy theories and his father's $10,000 bet offline is brought to you by NetSuite. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts, you'll get 10 answers. Rates will rise or fall. Inflation's up or down. Can someone please invent a crystal ball?

[Max Fisher]

Time will tell. That's a magic eight ball.

[Jon Favreau]

That's a magic eight ball. Until then, over 38,000 businesses have future proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle. The One Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. With real time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com offline. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com offline.netsuite.com offline. Zach Mack, welcome to Offline.

[Zach Mack]

Hey, thanks for having me, John.

[Jon Favreau]

So we've done a few episodes on conspiracy theories. Your story is different and personal. You have a series called alternate realities on NPR's embedded podcast. That's about a a $10,000 bet that you made with your dad. Yeah. What was the bet?

[Zach Mack]

The bet was so my father has just been getting increasingly into conspiracies over the years. A year ago I tried to confront him about it. I work in media. I said, hey, I work in media. I know where this is going. I, I, you're being radicalized. Let me help you out. He didn't agree. So he challenged me to a bet for $10,000 that that 10 predictions of his would happen by the end of the year. And it was all very politically apocalyptic predictions. It was our country would come under martial law, that an electromagnetic pulse device would wipe out all digital communication across the US that Obama and Pelosi and Biden and all these top Democrats would be rounded up and convicted of treason and Trump would be reinstated without an election. Like it was just, you know, all this sort of right wing fantasy. And of course, at the end of the year, none of it came true and he was 0 for 10 on his bet.

[Jon Favreau]

What I'm curious to know what your initial conversation with your dad was like before you started recording your phone calls and check ins, which become the basis for the series for people who haven't listened, like where you asked him to participate in this project. Also, you know, you talk to your mother, you talk to your sister, because this has been a sort of people if people haven't heard it yet, it's become a family issue. So how, how, how did those conversations go?

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, I mean, these conversations have been happening kind of slowly over several years. Right. It's like he's talking about conspiracies all the time. We're getting into it and having circular arguments that just aren't going anywhere. They're not working. He's not listening, I'm not listening. And we're, we're just. And really, two years ago, my sister came out to my father. My father's deeply religious, he's very Christian. But my mom, My sister and I are not. And my mom's like a left wing liberal Jewish woman. We live in the Bay Area. We grew up in the Bay Area, so it's very left wing. My father's very much an odd man out in a lot of circles, including our close family dynamic. And when she, when my sister came out to him, that didn't go particularly well. And that was like a real fissure in the family. And so we've sort of been dealing with that the last two years. And then a year ago, the conspiracy stuff had just really ramped up. And that's when he challenged me to the bet. And the moment he challenged me to the bed, I was like, well, this is obviously a podcast. Like, I just knew. It's like, I do this for a living. I. I just, I had had all the. If nothing else, exactly, it had all the things like there were stakes, there were character. He gave me a deadline, and, you know, it was just all these things. And I said to him, as soon as he proposed it, I was like, hey, do you mind if I interview you Before I even talked to him about the bet? Cause first he just sent it to me. He sent like a photo of his predictions. And I said, hey, can we talk about this? But I want to interview you and maybe I'll do something with it. And he was like, absolutely. That's a great idea. He was really into it. He was. I mean, he thought he was going to be right. So, you know, to be fair, but he was very into it and supportive of the idea the whole way. And I think my mom and sister were also involved and supportive because I think they just felt like we had tried everything else. We had tried to talk to him every other way. So this sort of felt like a Hail Mary pass at the end of the game. You know, it was like one last, you know, weird attempt to get through to him.

[Jon Favreau]

So there's a lot of. Of different theories on why people end up gravitating towards conspiracies media, diet, social connections or lack thereof, mental health, personality, you know, upbringing. Why do you think your dad gravitated toward conspiracies? And what do you think made it, got kicked it up a notch over the last year or two?

[Zach Mack]

I think my father has some clear disadvantages and, and, and why he is predisposed to. To conspiracies being appealing to him. I think one, he is. He really struggles to navigate the Internet. You know, tech and all that is a very foreign concept to him. He doesn't follow the news particularly closely. He's deeply religious. I also think when you're, when you are deeply religious, you're sort of trained to take a lot on faith and what you feel is true.

[Max Fisher]

True.

[Zach Mack]

His father was an anti vaxxer. He was a chiropractor and very embittered towards the medical institution. So my father sort of grew up pretty anti institution, especially medical institutions and anti vax as well. So, like, that all plays into it. And I also just think he's a little bit of a contrarian with an ego, and he lives in the Bay Area surrounded by people he disagrees with, and I think he's sort of carved out that space for himself a little bit. So there's a lot of reasons why I think it, it appeals to him, and then there's a lot of reasons why it, it appeals to different people. And I, I think everyone has a little bit of a different entry point.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. I mean, you talk about how he consumed a lot of content by a woman named Julie Green.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Tell me a little bit more about her and the relationship between conspiracy theorists and their source forces.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. So my father, at some point during the pandemic, came to believe in the idea of that God still speaks through intermediaries. God still speaks through prophets. And so he went looking for prophets, and he stumbled upon this woman named Julie Green. And I think she's someone who appealed to him because she, like him, she's from the Midwest, and she's sort of. She's not like, really theatrical and big. She's a little more toned down. And he just started watching her, and she is just pumping out all these, like, big predictions and conspiracies and, and saying God is, you know, speaking directly through her. And of course, she's wrong all the time. All the time. She's. She's wrong on these predictions. I think in 2022, she said, you know, Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were gonna die that year. She said, you know, know King Charles would before he was King would. Was net was never going to get to be king, and that he would also kill the queen. And she's just. She's wrong all the time. But for some reason, she appealed to him, and he started watching her videos. But she's. She's kind of part of this larger movement of online prophets. You see, like these very. On the religious right, there's. There's a lot of them. And at some point, my father made a separate bet with my mother and lost that. And once he lost that, the deal was he couldn't watch Julie Greene anymore. And what we realized is, like, it didn't really matter. Like, it wasn't about Julie Greene at all. He just moved on to the next online profit. And there's other ones that he now prefers more than her. But it's part of this whole world. And, yeah, it gets pretty nuts.

[Jon Favreau]

I know you talk to a lot of experts who study conspiracy theories.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Was there anything you learned that surprised you or helped, like, helped your relationship with your dad?

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, I think because of my media background, because of the work that I do, I always came into it thinking, oh, you just don't have the right information. Like, let me just get you the right information. Here you go. And you're. You'll be on your way. Like, you just clearly read the wrong thing and. And we're good. That's just. That's like, so far from the truth. That's not what's gonna. That's not what's gonna help him. And. And I think the more I realized it wasn't about fighting falsehoods with facts or fighting at all. And it was more about being empathetic, being curious, really trying to understand why these ideas were appealing to him and how he got here. And so just taking a much slower, more curious route was definitely a way where I was able to connect to him and understand him. Ultimately, I wasn't able to change his mind. So I can't say, like, oh, here's the formula for how to pull someone out of the rabbit hole, but I still feel like I'm chipping away at him. Even though, you know, know, our bed is over, I. I still think I'm chipping away at it, but it's. It's what basically every expert told me is that it's really, really difficult to pull someone out of the rabbit hole once they go down it. And if they don't want to. If they don't want to come out, they're not. They're not going to.

[Jon Favreau]

Your point about empathy I've heard before and thought a lot about, like, what. What did you learn when you try to see things from your dad's perspective and try to figure out and talk to him about why these ideas are appealing to him?

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, I think conspiracies, in a lot of ways, people just want to feel like the world is really scary and unpredictable right now.

[Max Fisher]

Right.

[Zach Mack]

It's really scary. And all of us want something that feels like a sure thing. We want to be assured in some ways. And I think in some ways, conspiracies can do that. Even though a lot of them are, like, really scary. There's. There's sort of that. That knowledge that is. Is very. There's something very comforting about them. So I. I started to understand that. I started to understand why these ideas could. Could just be helpful, especially when you felt a little bit like an outcast, maybe in your family or community. It's sort of. They can be a way of elevating your status. Right. If you're a little bit of an outcast, well, now suddenly you sort of have access to privileged information, you know, something that those other idiots don't know, so you can feel a little better about yourself. There's just so many reasons why these things are appealing. But, yeah, I think what I learned in talking to my dad, I think there's just times where he feels. He feels really alone. I think there's probably, you know, when we were talking, he had just turned the same age that his father was when his father passed away. And his father passed away very tragically. So, you know, I think there was. He was sort of grappling with some death anxiety. That was. That was something a clinician pointed out to me, was like, I think your father's definitely wrestling with, you know, death anxiety. And he was like, well, how old is he? How old was his father when he died? And I realized, oh, my God, they're the same age. Know. But yeah, the empathy route, it helps me connect with him. Ultimately, I didn't change his mind, but I do think I'm sort of paving the road to eventually reach him. Maybe. We'll see. But it.

[Jon Favreau]

The one part stuck out at me is I think you asked him why he wanted to do the best that and why he proposed it. And he said to you that in part, he wanted you to believe that God was still in control of the world.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And that made me. You were just talking about this, but it made me think of, you know, conspiracies are a way to explain the inexplicable and, and give us a sense of order in a pretty disordered world. And I, I did. When I heard him say that about, like, God is in control, I'm like, oh, that. That could be. Yeah, that could be at the root of this totally.

[Zach Mack]

And I think it's at the root of religion in a lot of ways. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

It's.

[Zach Mack]

It, it just sort of explains. It snaps everything into place and gives it all a purpose and a reason. And you, you know, it's telling you everything is going to be okay. So, yeah, I do think that that probably plays into it for him. Him for sure.

[Jon Favreau]

At one point, your dad makes the argument that you and the rest of your family are the intolerant ones because he's fine with your views, but you're the ones who aren't fine with his. What, what was your initial reaction to that when you heard that?

[Zach Mack]

You know, that's one that kind of stumps me to this day. Because he's not wrong, right? He's not wrong. I do think we are being intolerant of his views now. It's clear that, that many of his views are incorrect. Like, and we can factually prove that. Right. But we are being intolerant of it. I think he is also not realizing the, the effect that he's causing on his marriage. You know, the fact that my mom feels like she lives in a house with a person she, she can't share reality with and she can't trust, especially with financial decisions, because he's proven, you know, that he can go off and make big financial purchases without consulting her. That correlate to a lot of these conspiracy theories. And then meanwhile, my sister feels rejected by him because of her sexuality. So I don't think he's necessarily being as tolerant as he thinks he's being. But I do understand, like, I think everyone has a threshold for their, their tolerance and, and, and what they're willing to put up with. You know, I still love my father very much, and, and we, we will continue to have a relationship, but there's only so close we can be when he's just. When we are not sharing a reality.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that did it. It opened something up for me about conspiracies when he said that, because I was like, well, when you think about the conspiracies on the left list, right, he probably thinks he's not doing any harm to you by guessing that Barack Obama and Joe Biden are going to be, you know, arrested and convicted of treason. Right? Like, that's a guess. It doesn't seem like it's going to harm anyone. Now, of course, that goes down a path. And then when he was talking about your sister, too, and you said, well, she doesn't. She feels rejected by you, he said, I love. I love your sister. I love her dearly. And I would never. And it was just. It's a. It makes me think about, like, folks on the right who've gone down these rabbit holes or even some who haven't gone down the rabbit holes that far, and they really do seem to think that. That we're the intolerant ones.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And that they're not wishing anyone harm, even though they have these views that we think are harmful if not just having them, but, like, carried out to their logical conclusion.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah. And I, you know, also, also, if given the opportunity, I'm sure my father would, like, vote a lot of rights away from my sister and things like that. Right. So it. I. It is harmful. It. There, there is action attached to these beliefs sometimes. And, you know, sometimes not as directly, but. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

He doesn't sound like the kind of guy that would, like, go storm the Capitol.

[Zach Mack]

No, no, but.

[Jon Favreau]

But the kind of guy who would say, oh, of course, the election was stolen.

[Zach Mack]

Exactly. And he believes the election was stolen. And he believes, you know, both Obama and Biden are illegitimate presidents for whatever reason. You know. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

At this point, are you still attempting to convince your dad of anything? What. What's the relationship like now?

[Zach Mack]

So he, since the show's come out, he's. He's heard it. He's. He's actually not upset. He's. He was like, oh, I thought it was well done. He knew it was going to be a difficult listen, but he expected that. And he's been, he's been like, a great support, like a great sport about it. Very supportive. You know, we've checked in a number of times, and he did challenge me to another bet.

[Jon Favreau]

No way. Really?

[Zach Mack]

He challenged me to another bet, which it was very similar. It's $10,000. Another new crop of 10 predictions. And the only reason I took it because I don't want to take advantage and I don't want to keep making podcasts about my family. This was incredibly emotionally diffic for me to make.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

But I wanted to do it again because I said to him, okay, I'll take this bet, but at the end when you've lost again, then I get to control your media diet. Like, I get to eliminate stuff that you're watching, and I'll give you, like, a big list of preapproved things that you can, you can check out and we can talk about things, and I'll just be a little more in charge of your media diet. And my reasoning for that was like, well, at that point, if you have lost 20 straight predictions in a row, it, it would be pretty clear that you're on the wrong track. And, and maybe, maybe I know what I'm talking about. And he was like, yeah, that, that seems reasonable to me. So that, that is.

[Jon Favreau]

What are some of the good. What are some of the. Your favorite new conspiracies that are part of the bet?

[Zach Mack]

You know, so last year was all put, you know, like a political upheaval. And this year, because Trump is in office, it's all predictions like this. And this will all come out. The truth will really come out about, you know, the JFK murder, Fauci's involvement in Covid, and, you know, that Barack Obama and Joe Biden are illegitimate presidents. And it's all this, like, these revelations will come out, and so much so that he's like, you will believe it, Zach. You will believe it. And I was like, okay, I'm not going to believe it unless one of these, like, 18 news sources confirms it. And I sent him a list, was like, it really has to be confirmed by one of these news sources for me to even entertain it as true.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you feel like you're making some. You said that you thought you might be chipping away at this. Do you feel like you're making some progress just in talking about the new bet?

[Max Fisher]

I hope so.

[Zach Mack]

I'm not. I think last year I really set out to change his mind. I was really hopeful I could change his mind and pull him away from these conspiracies at the end of the year. When that didn't happen, I, I just came to accept where he's at. And I, I understand that this is largely up to him. I'll do what I can, but I don't. I'm not carrying it the same way that I did last year. But I will say that I knew the story was important to tell anyways because my story is not unique. This is just happening all over the country in thousands and thousands of households. And in the two weeks since this story has come out, out, you know, I've gotten like 500 plus emails and DMS, all from people who are going, I'm going through the exact same thing. Like, my story is the exact same as yours. My, my father and my mother believe the exact same things. And it's it's overwhelming to see how many people are. Are wrestling with the same thing.

[Jon Favreau]

Has your story and your father's story taught you anything about the why Greater effort out there to fight conspiracies right now.

[Zach Mack]

You know, I wish there was a more organized effort and unified effort. Everything feels so fractured, and it doesn't feel like there is a clear consensus on how to get someone out of the rabbit hole. And the, you know, clinicians and psychologists and experts and people I spoke to, there are things that are helpful and kind of work, but there's. There's no, there's no magic bullet. And that's. That's upsetting. And, and we're in this weird moment right now where there's just like a war on truth. I mean, you see what's happening. It feels like the truth is more up for grabs than it's ever been. And I just think that's a really tough spot for people to navigate, even you or I. There's a moment in the podcast where I misquote something where I get something wrong. And I wanted to put that in because it's a. Like we can be wrong, too. It's not that I have all the answers. It's not that we're always right. It's there. There is just so much garbage and misinformation out there and not a lot of accountability.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And I do think I've come to believe that the fact checking while important, and it's good to have the truth out there. Someone should have the truth out there. That is not the answer to persuading people and that it is much more. More down the path of. As much as. As difficult as it may be. And it was very difficult for you. Just. I could tell just hearing the series empathy and is. Is the route to at least, you know, try to put yourself in the other person's shoes and see where they're coming from. And that's. That's much. That's much harder than fact checking them.

[Zach Mack]

It's really hard. It's really hard to be patient. And, you know, you hear some people and they just say something and it just seems so outlandish and over the top. And it's. It's hard to have patience, patience for that. But ultimately, these are. These are our family members, these are our friends, these are our colleagues. These are the people we have to share a neighborhood, a country with, and we have to figure it out. And I just don't think that's going to happen. Yelling and screaming at each other. It's going to happen, hopefully through more empathy and productive conversations.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Zach, I'm glad you you glad you did the series. I know it was difficult for you, but it was. It's an excellent series. Everyone should go listen. And thanks for joining Offline. Thanks for chatting.

[Zach Mack]

Thanks so much, John. I appreciate it.

[Jon Favreau]

Take care. Offline is a crooked media production. It's written and hosted by me, John Favreau, along with Max Fisher. The show is produced produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Illich Frank. Jordan Kanter is our sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglin. Delon Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrian Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.