← Offline with Jon Favreau
Offline with Jon Favreau
Succession’s Creator Takes on the Tech Billionaires
01:02:57
Jesse Armstrong, the Emmy Award-winning creator of HBO's "Succession," joins Offline to chat about how he made a mockery of Silicon Valley tycoons in his new movie, “Mountainhead.” He and Jon discuss why the men who run social media companies are so anti social, how hard it is to satirize people who are already parodies of themselves, and compare notes on their writing process. Then, Offline welcomes an old friend back to the show to celebrate the Musk-Trump fallout.
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- [00:00]
Jon Favreau
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- [01:20]
Jesse Armstrong
I mean, Elon Musk is scared. Sam Altman was scared when he got into it. Everyone who seems to get close to it seems to get pretty scared. And one of the relief from it is this slightly messianic in a way. You know, we're talking about the nihilism. The other flavor which is strong in tech world is messianic optimism. Like a Panglossian. Like, it's going to be so fucking great when we get there. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. And in a way that's. In some ways that's more scary. Like I get a nihilist, but somebody who's telling me it's going to be great in ways you can't imagine and we're going to get there in a way that I can't explain. But let's strap in. That's kind of more scary, isn't it? That's A little bit French Revolution. The bad part.
- [02:07]
Jon Favreau
The bad part, right? Welcome to Offline. I'm Jon Favreau. Hey, everyone. I am joined here today by the two people who make this show happen every week.
- [02:22]
Emma Ilik
Hi, John.
- [02:22]
Jon Favreau
Our fearless producers, Austin and Emma.
- [02:26]
Austin Fisher
Hello.
- [02:26]
Jon Favreau
Hi, guys.
- [02:27]
Emma Ilik
How you doing?
- [02:28]
Jon Favreau
Who are here today to help me intro the show so that I'm not talking to myself. Since we no longer have Max.
- [02:35]
Emma Ilik
Yeah, we don't want to do like a boring old introduction anymore. No long passages.
- [02:40]
Jon Favreau
This seems like it'd be more fun. Yeah.
- [02:42]
Emma Ilik
Derek Thompson has cornered it anyway, so.
- [02:44]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's true. I don't. I can't. I can't do long intros anyway, so here we are.
- [02:47]
Austin Fisher
I miss Max so much. I hope we hear from him soon.
- [02:50]
Emma Ilik
I do hope we hear from Max soon.
- [02:52]
Jon Favreau
Well, stay tuned for that.
- [02:54]
Emma Ilik
Stay tuned for that. John, do you want to tell us who you have on the show today?
- [02:57]
Jon Favreau
Yes, we have Jesse Armstrong.
- [03:00]
Emma Ilik
I'm very excited.
- [03:02]
Jon Favreau
The creator writer for the show Succession, and he has a new film out, his first post, Succession project. It's called Mountainhead. It's about four tech moguls who get together at a ridiculous looking house in Utah while one of them owns a social media platform that is pumping out a bunch of misinformation thanks to like a new AI feature and the world is going to shit all around them. It's almost like a play because it just takes place in this house with the four of them and the movie is about how they react to the world just going to shit around them. And it is very dystopian. It's dystopian.
- [03:44]
Emma Ilik
It's very offline.
- [03:46]
Austin Fisher
It's hilarious too. Amazing dialogue. They say things like hardcore gravy. We're all lubed up. Which is something I hope to never say again.
- [03:56]
Emma Ilik
So we just got out of the taping right now. It was a phenomenal conversation. Jesse was very funny, as we kind of all expected as the writers succession. But I do want to ask to someone that hears the description of that movie and thinks it's a little bit too dystopian, it's a little bit too offline, it's a little bit too concerning. What is your pitch on why this was and why you want to have this conversation with Jesse?
- [04:16]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, it's funny. I was on a text chain with some friends and me and another friend who had seen it were trying to convince everyone else that it was worth their time to watch. And my pitch is it is. And I say this to Jesse in the interview, but it's like, it seems more over the top than Succession in a really great, great way. And. And as you start realizing in the movie that it is more of a sort of biting satire than even Succession is, you. You really get into it. And just the dialogue and the jokes. I mean, so many. So many really great lines. As Emma was just saying really funny jokes. I enjoyed every minute of it. I was, like, laughing out loud, watching.
- [05:01]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah.
- [05:01]
Austin Fisher
On top of that, I mean, these are horrible people. And I understand, like, not wanting to spend two hours, like, locked up in a mansion with them, which is kind of the plot of the movie. But there is a feeling of schadenfreude, like, I don't want to spoil the end, but, you know, it's pretty satisfying to watch people's comeuppance and also just to revel in how truly lame these characters are, which I think is something that is also true to life.
- [05:23]
Emma Ilik
And you just talked to Jesse about how he got in the head of those characters, how he created them, how they're kind of, like, built around Elon and Andreessen and Musk. All of the above.
- [05:31]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. He said he listened to a lot of pods, listening to a lot of the all in podcasts, and a lot of those guys as he was doing research for this. So, you know, we have a conversation about the movie, what makes it so offline, and all that kind of good stuff. We talk about writing is writing, and we go back and forth on that. And he's just a wonderfully funny and real genuine guy.
- [05:53]
Emma Ilik
So I'm excited to get into it. You want to tell us about the other surprise that you have today?
- [05:56]
Jon Favreau
Well, you know, because any other time, if Max was here, we would be talking about, what a week.
- [06:02]
Jesse Armstrong
What a week.
- [06:03]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, we. The Elon Trump breakup, which I guess right before we recorded, they. We. We found out that they talked about. Yeah, they spoke privately Tuesday night. This is Wednesday. We're recording this. And. And then Elon said he tweeted. You know, I. I went too far in some of my posts, but we were all in our meeting, we were all like, I cannot believe that Max Fisher, who had been predicting the Elon Trump breakup forever, and then left the show thinking that his prediction was wrong. It would have been so great to talk to Max about it.
- [06:37]
Emma Ilik
First week that he was gone.
- [06:38]
Jon Favreau
The first week he was gone.
- [06:39]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah.
- [06:39]
Austin Fisher
Talk about shot in of front, right?
- [06:40]
Jon Favreau
And so we were like, you know what? We got to bring back Max.
- [06:43]
Emma Ilik
Yes, we do.
- [06:44]
Jon Favreau
Just to talk about this.
- [06:45]
Emma Ilik
And so we did.
- [06:46]
Jon Favreau
And so we did. And you will hear my quick conversation with Max about the Elon Trump breakup right after my conversation with Jesse Armstrong. And that is all right after this. Jesse Armstrong, welcome to Offline.
- [07:05]
Jesse Armstrong
Hey, welcome myself to you. Hello.
- [07:09]
Jon Favreau
What. What perfect timing to discuss your new movie about a falling out between billionaires while the world burns around them.
- [07:19]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, yeah, it's tough here. I'm in LA with you, and I guess we're not together because of events.
- [07:25]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on here. So as someone who has had the great misfortune of both covering and interacting with. With some of these tech moguls, I thought you brilliantly satirized a group of people who are already parodies of themselves. You focused on on media moguls in succession, though. You know, you wrote a great tech billionaire character there, Lucas Matson in the final Seasons. What made you want to take on these tech moguls as your first post succession project? Was there a specific moment? Where was the inspiration?
- [08:01]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I kind of didn't. I was trying to write some other things. I wrote a review of the Michael Lewis book about Sam Bankman fried for the Times Literary Supplement owned by Rupert Murdoch. And off the back of that I did started doing a bunch of reading. Some colleagues of mine started putting a few podcasts in front of me, and what I got was the voice of the tech world in my head in a way that I couldn't really get out. Their. Their philosophical way of approaching the world, their logical way of approaching the world. And it started to seem to me scary and also funny and. And after a certain point, I thought, I think. I think there's a thing in this. I didn't think it was a show, but it felt like, oh, this, there's a. There's a movie in this, or a play in a way, which is kind of what the. What the film. One of its antecedents is kind of British TV plays. So, yeah, it was the voices. I couldn't get the voices out of my head. And, you know, for a writer, often getting the voice in a novel or in a TV piece is what lets you in.
- [09:07]
Jon Favreau
What podcasts did you subject yourself to get these voices in your head? And is there anything in particular that really stuck in your mind from the podcast as like an impression of these characters?
- [09:19]
Jesse Armstrong
Great. Well, yeah, there's the Lex Friedman, there's the BG Squared, all in. You know, these are four guys and then theoretically meeting up for a poker weekend. I mean, a lot of these people are into poker and game Theory. So all of those. And also, you know, TED talks. But yeah, those were some of the key ones.
- [09:39]
Jon Favreau
The movie came together pretty quickly. I think you. I think I saw that you pitched it sometime after the election and then shot it in just five weeks this spring. Why such a short timeline?
- [09:51]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, it was sort of fear. Fear of missing the moment. Fear of not being in the same cultural tech bubble as the audience. Fear that someone else, you know, a writer, you suddenly, as soon as you've thought of an idea, it feels like it'll be obvious to everyone else and you're scared someone else is gonna do it. And I directed this and I was also scared of directing and sort of the fear. Fear of waiting too long and hesitating and trying to read every book in the library and watch every online tutorial made me think, you know, maybe you should just run at it and have a go.
- [10:22]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I know very well that you have to in this news environment, sort of be of the moment as fast as you can because otherwise things change rather quickly. Tell me if you disagree, but I thought these characters were even more over the top than most of the characters in succession in, in a great way. Do you think that, that it's tech moguls? Do you think they're more ridiculous and maybe less self aware than media business types? Or how were you thinking about it when you, when you wrote this?
- [10:53]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, it's kind of a narrower piece in a way. Are there. It's just got a different tone, I guess the, the camera style, the visual style, the. Some of the surroundings because it's this billionaire milieu are somewhat similar. But I think people who watch the film will find it subtly or maybe quite directly, different tone, it's more satirical. I guess. Sometimes that word makes me wince because it brings to mind a sort of the worst newspaper cartoon you ever saw in your life with Dove of Peace being having its neck wrung by the bear of militarism or something. But you know, there is an honorable tradition of satire which can also be subtle and social satire, satire about ideas. So it's more, more of a satire and more of a comedy in my mind. It's a more direct comedy. I think there's more jokes per page in a really brutal way than there, there ever were in succession.
- [11:47]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, yeah. There's so many good lines. I'm.
- [11:51]
Jesse Armstrong
I wasn't fishing, but that's kind.
- [11:53]
Jon Favreau
No, no, I, I've been, I've been some friends who've watched the movie too. We were just texting about some of Our favorite lines in the movie. I'm interested in how you settled on sort of like the four characters. And I know you didn't base them specifically on certain tech billionaires, at least individually. But to me, Randall felt very. Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel, Venus seems like maybe Elon Zuck, few others. Jeff has Sam Altman vibes, maybe Sam Bankman Fried there too. Hugo seems like so many lesser known VCs and founders that I've come across. What different tech industry personality types and traits were you trying to represent with the four different characters?
- [12:39]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. Good. And all those people you mentioned are hopefully put in the blender. Then there's less well known people. There's the Alex Karp from Palantir, who's also a sort of philosophical figure. And then there's from the UK Hassibus, who's an AI pioneer. There's a ton of people to draw from. I like, a lot of writers are quite scared of other human beings. So most of my research is like secondary, you know, but the American journalism, especially American journalism is great with profiles, books, the, you know, the, the space tech biographies and analysis is rich. So yeah, I read tons and tons. And then I guess it's a mixture of like taking characteristics, that thing which is so current, not wanting to die, and philosophical approaches and then pouring them into quite archetypal male figures. Right. They line up with their net worths on their chests at one point. And I've written a lot of men in my life, a lot of dysfunctional men. And there's something universal about the archetype of the philosopher daddy of the gang, the energetic guy who you're kind of, if you're on the weekend, you're all waiting for him to arrive. Cause you know, he somehow brings that magical. This is the gangness that you don't have till he shows up and you have the anxious guy who's worried if he's bought enough beers and then you have, you know, Geoff, who's the in. This is kind of the voice of conscience. I guess. So, yeah. It's a mixture between stealing brutally from the real world and finding some comic archetypes to pour those characteristics into.
- [14:21]
Jon Favreau
In the real world world, the people who have reached this level of power and success, the Zuckerbergs, the Musks, the Altmans, they are clearly, you know, exceptionally smart and talented people. At one point, some were almost universally admired. What do you think happened to them? Do you think that it's a great incredible wealth and power change them or reveal who they've always been. I've wrestled with this myself.
- [14:50]
Jesse Armstrong
It's a great question. In the final analysis, I don't have to answer that. I guess in a human sense, I don't. You know, I tend to think we're just a product of our environment and the forces upon us. You know, Sam Altman seemed to go into AI just to pick on him with a who can tell what humans motives are? And especially in the arena of politics, you must have endlessly wrestled with this, the onion skin of ego and genuine discipline, desire to do good and what proportion of each is in each figure. I guess in the final analysis the answer in politics and in tech is it doesn't matter what, what's this onion doing? Because it. You can peel away the layers forever and ever about why they're doing and what forces were acting upon them. I have, I have a optimistic sense of human nature, so I try to take people their own estimation when they say what their aims are. But looking at someone like Sam Bankman fried his interest in effective altruism, it seemed to be sometimes a mask he wore to make himself more palatable to the world. And other times it seemed like a real young person's grappling with how do I be in the world? The sort of central question. So yeah, I take a pass on the final analysis but. But we don't have to answer that. Right. We just look at what the effects are in the world.
- [16:17]
Jon Favreau
I think the nihilism of tech billionaires really comes through in Mountainhead. At one point they seriously talk about whether other people are actually real. Venus's social media platform is pumping out misinformation that's causing global conflicts. And he says, quote, we're going to show users as much shit as possible until everyone realizes that nothing's fucking serious, nothing means anything and everything's funny and cool. I mean that is, it's funny. It's also like one of the bleaker things I've heard. It totally rings true in terms of how tech people talk, but when said by someone with that much power, it's also terrifying. Do you think of some of them like that?
- [17:02]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I'd really just draw a distinction, right. The, the, the sort of comment about do you find, do you, do you believe in other people? Maybe satirical and aggressive, but I think it's a genuine struggle for all of us to believe. You know, J.D. vance and the Pope had this debate, didn't they? A little bit about who you, who you pay regard to, the people close to you or the people far from You. And it's a struggle for all of us, I think, to really believe in the complete and total exact same humanity in the person far across the world, on another continent from us. So I. I feel some sympathy with them in that I think the ATT is all important. Right. The attempt to be able to believe you might have been born into another body of another sex or gender and race far away and how might the world look then is an important struggle to try and complete. On the. The. The. Everything's cool and everything's funny, I have much less time for. And it seems to me like a young man's vanity and. And the sort of thing that, you know, might have occurred to Zuckerberg when he was making Face Smash and thinking it'd be fun to compare women in his dorm with farm animals. It's like, it's a young. It's a young man. It's a young man's game, right? Thinking everything's funny and cool. As you get older, you start realizing maybe that's not the only ways in which the world works.
- [18:29]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. It's also, it seems, from the. From the tech moguls, particularly over the last decade, it strikes me as the nihilism strikes me as a justification for a rationalization for what they're doing and the harm that they're causing, because then they can say, okay, well, you know, yeah, this is bad, but, like, everything's bad and everything's. It's not real and people are bad. You know, it's. It's just very. It's like, you know, a lot of these folks started as libertarians, and then I feel like it has devolved into nihilism in a way that it's like, well, nothing really matters, and so let's just have fun. And it's a way to make them, or make their conscience feel a little bit better about what's going on.
- [19:12]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I mean, nihilism, I'm sure it exists in tech world and in the Valley. It definitely does. There's a. It's a broad church. Right. They. They are. Some of them are genuinely philosophically engaged with how to make the world better, and some of them don't give a fuck. And. And so I wouldn't want to say there is one overriding philosophical approach. And I don't, you know, I think they're. They're worried. Lots of them are worried, right, About. About AI guardrails, about what will. How the world will develop. I'm more confident about their philosophical approach and how their overweening confidence can lead to whether their kind of zeal for something of an optimistic view of the world. Like, you know, you might have seen Sam Altman's have you seen his blog post this morning? The gentle singularity he's welcoming us into. And so I wouldn't say it's all nihilism. I don't think they're all nihilists. I think they're human beings just like us, but with this incredible amount of power. And as you say, I'm sure that sometimes if your economic interests are so powerful and you don't see any other way through intellectually where you might be taking the world, then maybe nihilism starts to blossom as a bit of a dark flower of like, in the end we're all, you know, as us politicians said recently, you know, we're, we're all going to die. So.
- [20:39]
Jon Favreau
Well, it also, it sort of reminded me of Elon Musk's. One of his favorite lines is the most likely outcome is is the most entertaining one, which is just sort of his way of dismissing like anything bad that might happen. And I'm like, all right, man, yeah, maybe when you're just sitting on your platform that you that has rotted your brain foreign is brought to you by fatty 15. If you've searched for wellness supplements lately, you might have heard about C15. It's an essential fatty acid that's naturally found in whole fat dairy products. But over time, our intake of these foods has decreased. Combined with the Natural decline of C15 as we age, many of us aren't getting enough of this essential nutrient. That's where fatty 15 comes in. C15 is a groundbreaking essential fatty acid, the first to be discovered in over 90 years. Fatty 15's co founder, Dr. Stephanie Ven Watson, made this pivotal discovery while working with the US Navy. Extensive research encompassing over 100 studies has revealed that C15 is a vital nutrient for healthy aging. By replenishing our cells with the essential C15 nutrient, fatty 15 effectively repairs cells and restores our long term health. This scientific advancement supports long term health and wellness, specifically targeting healthy aging. Insufficient C15 leads to cellular fragility and accelerated aging, which in turn impacts the aging of our entire body. Fatty 15 Stre strengthens our cells and helps slow down biological aging at a cellular level. Fatty 15 is a scientifically supported, award winning and patented supplement providing 100% pure C15. It's also vegan and free from flavors, allergens and preservatives. Fatty 15 offers three times more cellular benefits compared to omega 3 or fish oil. Best of all, fatty 15 comes in a gorgeous reusable glass bamboo jar and refills are shipped right to your door. Fatty 15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help support your long term health and wellness, especially as you age. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com offline and using code offline at checkout. The other thing that, that really resonated with me in the movie was the guy's view towards politics and government. They talk about, you know, staging coups, running countries, running the world. They don't really want to talk to the president when he calls. And, and to me it really captured how these tech guys attitude towards people in government is, you know, they're not as powerful, they're not as smart, they're kind of a nuisance that we have to deal with and you know, we could do their job better than they can. We're just, we just choose not to because this is a better gig anyway. How do you think about sort of the tech view of, of politics and government from what you've listened to and researched?
- [23:22]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, that's one of the strong tones of voice you hear coming through, right? This, this weariness, weariness with most of the population in the globe for not being smart enough. And sometimes as they isolate smaller and smaller, the group who are worthy of kind of proper consideration, you start feeling like it's basically 100 of them in Sun Valley or some other place to go to gather. And yeah, that arrogance, the confidence which we all need to jump in and try and address problems but, but transitioning at a certain point into arrogance, it was one of the strongest flavors I smell. And I, I started in politics, I was no good and so quickly got out again. But, and I've done satirical work about politics and have many feelings about the, you know, ways we, it fails. But I'm essentially a politics person who, who believes lots of politicians go into it for good reasons and, and anyway, it's the only thing we've got. Right. How do we figure out who gets the money and where the roads go? We've just, it's the only game we've got. It's the only thing we have which can stop us from sorting those things out with our fists. So I'm, I believe, and I have to believe in politics and the arrogance with which a certain, certain type of person approaches the incredibly complex problems of forming coalitions, mobilizing support and effecting change. You know, you think of, like, Musk's pathetic dabbling, you know, I was just about to say that, and then walks away, throwing his hands up like, this is all too fucking complicating this. Or, you know, who would have thought? Have a look at. Have a look at your Robert Caro, like, four volumes there. Like, this is somebody who did something and he spent his whole fucking life doing it. And it's really tough and involves terrible compromises and just might destroy your life. But if you want to play that game, though, that's where you have to sit. It's not a casino that you can run into and make a quick profit off. So, yeah, I really feel some strong feelings about that approach to the sort of political world and the whole world of social policy. Social. You often feel like the whole of these people's worldview would crumble to nothing if you took a nurse or a social worker onto one of these podcasts. It's like these people are making the world go round. They're making it a livable community for everyone, and their economic value will not be recognized in your system. So what do we do? Do we vaporize them or do we turn them into a robot? No, we're going to have to figure out how to. A way to pay them and value them.
- [26:10]
Jon Favreau
No, I mean, look, it's. I love this conversation because it drives me insane as someone who's. Who's been in politics. And then, you know, I first sensed it. You know, like in my old consulting days, I would work with some. Before I did this, I work with some of these tech people. And the way they talked about Washington is just, like, dripping with disdain, but not the disdain that, like, most voters have about Washington, which is like, it's broken. It needs to work better. It's much like we're smarter than them. Why can't they just be as smart as us? And what. And I didn't enjoy much about Doge, but what I. What I did enjoy was watching Elon and his people realize that. Like, it's not. And maybe they didn't realize it, but it's not just like a high IQ that you need in politics and government. It's like a good eq, right? Like, you need to be able to deal with people. It's a social endeavor, and you need to be able to work with others in order to get anything done. And you just can't. You can't just snap your fingers and say, oh, because I'm brilliant. I invented something and created some fucking platform, then I'm Going to be able to solve the world's biggest problems. Which I guess he left realizing he couldn't solve the world's biggest problems. But I'm not sure if he knew it was because he's a bad people person.
- [27:23]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. And I mean, listen, this is a. Possibly the converted preaching to the converted. I'm not sure how interesting it is for other people to listen to, but yeah, and to, to, to take the brutal but probably potentially effective approach of, you know, the so called zero basing, cutting everything away, seeing what you really need. Fine social media platform, maybe it'll go down for a couple of hours. But you know, pepfar, the programs, which it's as close as evil as I can imagine to anything, not really believing in the concept, you know, to take those programs away from children. And it's pretty disgusting. And by the way, the Doge didn't exist when I pitched the movie and it's pretty much gone by the time it came out. So it wasn't in my mind. They're actually, they have that disdain for government. They're not really intending to meddle in it, the characters in the film. But yeah, I share your feelings.
- [28:28]
Jon Favreau
There are also people who, and this is true in the film as well, they seem quite lonely and unable to maintain healthy relationships, even with their fellow billionaires. At one point, one of my favorite lines in the movie, at one point Venus says I'm not very connected to my mother. And Randall comes back with, oh, well, studies show that's super important. How do you think we ended up with social media overlords who tend to be quite antisocial?
- [29:00]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I mean, I hope we can engage our pity glands. Do we have pity?
- [29:06]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, sure. Yeah, I have plenty of pity somewhere in here.
- [29:10]
Jesse Armstrong
I hope some pity will get secreted from the pity gland. You know, a certain level they are just guys and we all know guys who would prefer to talk about the study, about why it's important to be connected to your mother, rather than the difficult phone call they didn't have or did have with them. So I don't want to bring the, I don't want to bring the satirical hammer too hard down on that. That also strikes me as just guys. And there's been a lot written in the culture about the issues that men have with forming and maintaining relationships. And so I think that's a. Hopefully that's a slightly different level if people find it there in the film to enjoy, which is just men fucking it up and not quite the desperation for connection, for transcendence. For something real between them, which I see as something of a mini tragedy that plays out in the film.
- [30:02]
Jon Favreau
Well, look, everyone, every person has their own baggage, and we don't have to judge that. I do wonder if. I mean, I don't wonder because I've been arguing it on this show for a long time. If social media itself, right. And what they've. What they're involved in, what they've created is. Is a barrier to genuine connection. Because if all you have and all you pay attention to is people that you're connecting with, some of them strangers online, then you don't really have as much time to invest in the kind of relationships in real life that will be fulfilling.
- [30:40]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, Yeah, I think. I guess that's true. You get into a vicious circle, especially someone with Elon Musk on Twitter, right. That he seems to find the experience of posting and getting responded to a version of connection with the world, which looks like it's become pretty unhealthy. Is it universal? I don't know. You know, in some ways it's. You might say it's refreshing that they have also been caught by their own algorithms designed to increase the amount of time they spend on the platforms. The most worrying thing you sometimes hear is about those people who don't let their children. They're creating the platforms, but don't let their kids have access to any of it until they're, you know, 28. In some ways, at least, they're all in the same ship with us.
- [31:33]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's right. Offline is brought to you by bookshop.org we love independent bookstores. I have one in my neighborhood called Chevalier's. It's one of the oldest independent bookstores in Los Angeles. And it's wonderful and we should support more independent bookstores. Whether you're searching for an incisive history that helps you make sense of this moment, a novel that sweeps you away, or the perfect gift for a loved one, bookshop.org has you covered. When you purchase from bookshop.org you're supporting more than 2,000 local independent bookstores across the country, ensuring they'll continue to foster culture, curiosity, and a love of reading for generations to come. And there's big news. Bookshop.org has launched an ebook app. You can now support local independent bookstores even when you read digitally. You can browse and purchase on bookshop.org and read right in your device's web browser. Or for the full reading experience, download the app for iPhone and Android. Every purchase financially supports local independent bookstores. Bookshop.org even has a handy bookstore map to help you find local bookstores to support in your area. If you need some help picking your next read, the new book section of the website is updated weekly, so you'll always find something new and interesting to add to your story. Use code offline10 to get 10% off your next order@bookshop.org that's code offline10bookshop.org AI plays a big role in the movie. It's responsible for the misinformation on Venus's social media platform that wreaks havoc all over the world. And Jeff, who is the newest billionaire among them, he supposedly has the good AI that can help fact check all the misinformation. They also talk about the end of the nation state uploading their consciousness p doom, which is a phrase I hadn't heard before I wasn't familiar with. It's the probability of civilizational collapse caused by AI. What is your sense from everything you've read and listened to of like how the tech world sees the risks and benefits of AI? And do they, do you think they buy their, their own rhetoric?
- [33:41]
Jesse Armstrong
It's a great question. And you know, I would slight. You have a lot of very knowledgeable people on this podcast. I'm a, essentially a comedy writer. I like research. I've read widely for this. I think it has certainly the language and the philosophical approach. I would defend my knowledge of the future of AI. I mean given that the fact that no one in the large language model seems themselves to know how they work, I would give myself a pass on predicting the future of it. This Sam Altman piece, you should read it. He ends it with something which could be a prayer, I think which is may we scale smoothly, exponentially and uneventful, hopefully through superintelligence. You should. Maybe you could begin each of your podcasts with that prayer. But. But I guess what's really another onion skinned problem is Sam Altman is selling in this little, this new blog post he's sort of saying we're already in it. It's already happening. You know, the singularity is here. We're pretty much merging with. As soon as you're on ChatGPT4, you're pretty much merging with a machine and it's, it's kind of going to be, it's going to be more, it's going to be more painless than you think. This, this trip into the AI future because you're kind of, guess what, you're already. The anesthetic has already taken hold and you're ready. The operation is in train. And it's not very persuasive, I wouldn't say, because there's, it doesn't seem to have. There's often this thing of like, it's going to lead to unbelievable level of affluence and ease for human beings. There's. It's not quite explained how we're going to get past the job losses to that point. Also his share price and his value to his peers and amongst his peers is related to how much we buy what he's selling. Right? He's selling. He's selling, selling, selling. He's selling a worldview. He's selling his company. He's selling a piece of technology that we can all use. So it's hard to trust any of those people who know the most because they all have a very clear economic interest. Sometimes they've been accused that even inflating their P Doom. And he has a high one, I think. I think he thinks it's like 20% chance that this stuff wipes us out, but he's still willing to gamble, which is wild.
- [36:06]
Jon Favreau
Cause that's what he says. And that's what he says publicly. And you hear rumblings that privately, some of them are actually quite alarmed. You've got people, I've heard stories of people like liquidating pensions because they think in the future, like you're gonna, it's that all the jobs are gonna be wiped out and money's not gonna be a thing. I'm just like, okay, well are we, are we heading into this and we're just doing it and you're just gonna sell us on it anyway because you think, you know, you're gonna have enough money and power to escape the worst consequences. I don't know. I don't know. It's. It's a little frightening.
- [36:36]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. There. But there is the, the view that the inflated P Doom is just another way of swinging your AI dick around. Of like, look how dangerous the shit I've got is. Listen, I have no way of knowing. I think they are scared. I mean, Elon Musk is scared. Sam Altman was scared when he got into it. Everyone who seems to get close to it seems to get pretty scared. And one of the reliefs from it is this slightly messianic in a way. We're talking about the nihilism. The other flavor which is strong in tech world is, is messianic optimism. Like a Panglossian. Like it's going to be so great when we get there. It's Going to be great. It's going to be great. And in a way that's, in some ways that's more scary. Like I get a nihilist, but somebody who's telling me it's going to be great in ways you can't imagine. And we're going to get there in a way that I can't explain. But let's strap in. That's, that's kind of more scary, isn't it? That's, that's, that's a little bit French Revolution.
- [37:38]
Jon Favreau
The bad part. The bad part, right. I mean, we joked about it earlier, but you know, obviously we're in LA right now and there is civil unrest that has not been fueled by AI like in the movie, but certainly been, I think, amplified by social media, a lot of disinformation, propaganda, and maybe it's because I just saw Mountain Head last week or the other week, but it does, I felt eerily, it feels eerily similar in the way that there's unrest breaking down. You're like, well, I'm in la, I'm looking around, things seem fine. But then you look on our screens and it's just chaos everywhere. And then that, you know, makes more chaos in real life. When you were writing the movie, were you thinking at all, yeah, this could definitely happen? This is. Or were you like, nah, this is an exaggeration. Like, how is this something you worry about? I know you're a comedy writer, but how much, how much, how much concern do you have about this?
- [38:34]
Jesse Armstrong
Lots. And that was the nice thing about. In a way, I'm sad the project is over because I can no longer pour my research and anxieties into the project. It's one nice thing that, you know, artists get to do is pour their fears into their work. There's kind of a few separate elements to the film. Right. There's the backdrop, which is a sort of AI fueled rolling international crisis, I hope. I think, you know, there's obviously been in particular in Myanmar with Facebook, there have been incidents where social media in particular seems to have inflamed particular violent actions in general, I guess in our politics we feel, I think, right, that some, that some of the waves of right wing populism have been fueled in ways which we can't. No, but scents are amplified by the nature of social media. But that bit, in a way, the rolling international crisis is the most sort of black mirrory hypothetical. I think that we learn to differentiate fake from real pretty fast and hopefully we'll be able to stay just ahead of that curve. Will there be a bubble of getting something wrong, thinking something real is not real and something fake is real? Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen. You've, you know, the technology is, is there for you, but, but as soon as you've seen the one really, really good, good fake news report. Right. You mistrust the next one and you go and look for a secondary source. Most people. Most people and, and I guess mostly it just, the danger is it just works to reinforce your prejudices which are already there. So I don't, I don't have a super high p. Doom on. On that stuff going out of control. I guess the, the philosophical approach and the overconfidence of the people with their hands on these incredibly powerful technologies and the way that they are outrunning democratic oversight, I guess is the bit which I'm like, well that's happening. I mean where, where is the. The EU has attempted some, some, some work in this area, but seems like J.D. vance gave that, they gave those two really scary speeches right near, near the beginning of the administration and one of them was just like have at it with AI like we got to beat the Chinese, whatever that. As if, as if there's going to be one, one, you know, there's going to be one computer that we, you can say we, we won. So, so that's the bit that scares me is the, is the what purchase people via politics can have on the technology.
- [41:19]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. Between, between Succession and Mountainhead. You clearly are very interested in focusing on the, the lives and motives of the most powerful people in society. What is it about power that you find so interesting to explore?
- [41:41]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I guess it's the same reason I was first attracted by politics as a young person. Like, why is the world how it is? Why are people's experiences of the world so radically different and the opportunities we get so radically different? How is power and money distributed? And so politics fascinates me for that reason. Media, how people form their own sense of the world and how that feeds back into their. Yeah. Their political choices. And then I guess this tech world has been the coming wave of my lifetime which, which is most. I'm getting older. So you, you have to always factor in a like 15% p. Doom of being over 50 where everything seems to be worse. So I try to not feel that. And there are exciting things about technology coming into the world. But, but yeah, the, the way in which we do seem to be in the middle of a tech revolution and the opportunities for the mass of people to have any say in whether they like what's happening to them or not. It seems to be dissolving. So I guess that's my fear.
- [42:54]
Jon Favreau
Obviously, you took on politics directly in the Thick of it. Would you ever be interested in sort of like taking on Washington directly in a series or film?
- [43:06]
Jesse Armstrong
Well, yeah, the follow on from. I didn't come over. I was doing other things. Although I wrote one episode.
- [43:11]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [43:12]
Jesse Armstrong
So, yeah. So I guess it feels like that tone, which was Armando Inucci's tone, who started the Thick of It and we did in the Loop together and then. And so I've done a little bit and I love doing an episode of Veep. But, yeah, I think right now it doesn't. Maybe I love politics. Right now I don't feel like I have a way into Washington. And in a weird way, frankly, it doesn't feel like where the key power at this moment is.
- [43:38]
Jon Favreau
It's funny because in both Succession and Mountainhead, politics is. I mean, it's a little more in Succession, but it's a little off screen as a character. And it made me. Because I love Succession so much, too, and loved Mountainhead, but I was like, I'd love to hear. I'd love to watch a Jesse Armstrong show or a film that is just. Just takes on Washington directly. So I'll. If I have any pitches, I'll let you know. How's that sound?
- [44:03]
Jesse Armstrong
Well, please do. Yeah, it sounds. So, yeah. Finding your. Finding a new angle.
- [44:07]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's tough. That is very tough. That is very tough. I'm interested in what your media diet is like, since you. You really seem to have your finger on the pulse of the media, political tech, culture in America. Do you. Do you consume a lot of social media? Are you a screen addict? And then do you shut it all off when you write? Can you shut it all off when you write?
- [44:27]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I'm pretty. Hopefully pretty. Well, I'm not international. I'm Anglo American. I read plenty of news from the UK and the US and listen to podcasts from all parts of the spectrum of Pod, Save America included. And since Elon's, you know, Twitter stopped feeling useful and some of the images you got just as a regular user started to become so disturbing and unpleasant. I jumped off there. I couldn't justify being on there. I didn't want it in my head and life is nicer now. I don't have some of those voices. I probably am cut off from a certain part of the discourse, and maybe that's a loss to my creative engine. I Don't know. But I no longer look at. At a. Look at other social media a little bit. But I certainly, whenever I go to write, I leave my phone at home and I walk half an hour to work without any podcasts and ability to be in communication. And I have a landline at my office, but I write without WI fi and I think it's the only way to work to get. And it's not like I concentrate all day. I look out the window, I do other stuff, read newspapers. But I. But not having any input crucial for me.
- [45:46]
Jon Favreau
Well, that is impressive and inspiring.
- [45:49]
Jesse Armstrong
I will say that it's easy get an off. Well, you can't probably but once a week, half the day, can you? I think it's important to either take a brick phone or get a landline so you can know your family and you're not fucking anyone over by being out of contact if the kid school needs to call or whatever. But you. But that feeling and you know, you'll feel this weird anxiety as you leave. I'm sure you've done it. But you get, you get that little weird anxiety when you're not with your phone and it lasts three minutes and then it goes away and it's like a little drug that's put away and.
- [46:24]
Jon Favreau
You'Re like, I know I've had a slight experience where like, sometimes if I'm writing something, I'll do it at night when everyone's in bed and the news cycle is calmed a little bit. And then I can like, turn my phone over and not check Twitter. And it is funny because you start. I start typing. I'm like, oh, wow, look at me. Thoughts are coming in my head. I'm not just scrolling and getting angry. I'm actually starting to think about some things. Yeah, it's nice. I'll try it more.
- [46:48]
Jesse Armstrong
What about when you were speechwriting? Did you, like, input? Did you have to be in a quiet room? Did you? Did you.
- [46:54]
Jon Favreau
It was really tough because on the Obama campaign, I would do very little speech writing during the day because I wanted to, like, be in the news cycle to help inspire whatever I was writing. And you know, in the White House, it was a little easier to sort of tune it out. But I would do most of my writing late at night and super early in the morning because I didn't. I felt like I couldn't miss the news. Not just because I was addicted to it, because I felt like it was going to inform the speechwriting. And the president was like so busy with his day. It's not like he was paying attention to the news. So I wanted to make sure that he was responding to things that were in the news or developments that were happening. So I felt like, at least that's what I told myself. I felt like I needed to keep paying attention, but it made it harder. It made it a lot harder to write.
- [47:46]
Jesse Armstrong
The other great benefit, I don't recommend it. I can't quite do it myself. But if you ever hit that 3am spot, the little, the critical bit of your mind, which I'm sure is probably the same for a speechwriter as another kind of writer, the critical bit, which is like, oh, that was shit. That's shit. Don't put that. I think that part of your brain gets a little tired as well and checks out for a little bit and you suddenly realize you've written a couple of paragraphs without the strict monitoring of the. Is this definitely brilliant? Which you don't need, right? For the first draft. You need to get down that. And yeah, guess what? It's a little bit shitty, but there's a few bits in there that are going to work and you come back and you've got that first draft.
- [48:27]
Jon Favreau
It's taken me a long time, but to get over that. But I am. You know what? It, it actually, it does happen. You're right. 3am is a good time for that too. So, Jesse Armstrong, thank you so much for joining Offline. Everyone go check out Mountain Head On. Are we saying Max, hbo. Hbo. I feel like that's an HBO film. Everyone go check out Mountainhead. It is fantastic. It is hilarious. And, and, and thanks for all you do.
- [48:55]
Jesse Armstrong
Hey, thank you. It was a real pleasure to chat.
- [48:56]
Jon Favreau
All right, we're gonna head to break. When we come back, we will have our conversation with our old friend Max Fisher. Before we get there, some quick housekeeping. You might have heard that there's a bit of commotion going on here in Los Angeles. Donald Trump has militarized our city and ICE is out there conducting large scale raids in a way they never have before. Our friends at Vote Save America are fighting back by raising money for immigration defense groups. If you want to help, and I would encourage everyone to help if you can, go to www.votesaveamerica.com support and donate what you can to help right now. This is paid for by VoteSave America VoteSaveAmerica.com not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. When we come back, Max Fisher returns to the pod. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Men today face immense pressure to perform to Provide and keep it all together. So it's no wonder that 6 million men in the US suffer from depression every year. And it's often undiagnosed. It's okay to struggle. Real strength comes from opening up about what you're carrying and doing something about it so you can be at your best for yourself and everyone in your life. If you're a man and you're feeling the weight of the world, talk to someone. Anyone. A friend, a loved one, a therapist. I got a man sitting right across from me here, John Lovett. We're therapy boys.
- [50:17]
Max Fisher
We are. You know, I gotta get therapy back on the books.
- [50:20]
Jon Favreau
There you go.
- [50:21]
Max Fisher
I really do.
- [50:22]
Jon Favreau
And. And look, you have a lot of pressure as a man to perform, to provide and keep it all together.
- [50:26]
Max Fisher
I do. I feel that pressure as a man.
- [50:27]
Jon Favreau
Don't you feel that pressure?
- [50:29]
Max Fisher
Yes, I do feel that pressure as a man.
- [50:31]
Jon Favreau
As a man. As a man. Well, it's good. It's good to talk to people. Go see a therapist if you're listening.
- [50:38]
Max Fisher
Everybody needs therapy.
- [50:39]
Jon Favreau
And you know what? You don't have to leave your house. With better help.
- [50:42]
Max Fisher
That's the best part.
- [50:43]
Jon Favreau
With better Help. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an App store rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient, too. You can join a session with the therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com offline. That's betterhelp.com offline. Max, welcome back to the pod.
- [51:24]
Max Fisher
Thanks, man. I. It's.
- [51:26]
Jon Favreau
You barely left.
- [51:28]
Max Fisher
We barely left. I don't. Elon Musk and Donald Trump waited until six seconds after I walked out the door to finally break up the long promise breakup.
- [51:36]
Jon Favreau
Well, this is one of the many reasons we wanted to bring you back so soon because you had predicted for a long time that this would. That they would break up. And then I felt like, you know, there was a little sadness because you believed your. Your prediction wouldn't come to pass as you left the show, and then right after you left, boom.
- [51:59]
Max Fisher
I know.
- [51:59]
Jon Favreau
And in fact, in just the couple days since we talked about having you come Back on and talk about it now, this morning, it seems like the feud is over. I don't know, what are your impressions of the whole thing? What was it like when you saw the. When you first realized this was going down? Let's talk. Let's start there.
- [52:17]
Max Fisher
I mean, it was mixed emotions because on the one hand, the Trump Elon breakup has been on the offline calendar as an offline national holiday from the beginning. It's one of our most cherished days that we've been waiting for. On the other hand, like you said, I was a little annoyed because I predicted it early on. Now, if there's more, one thing that we know about Trump and his deals that he makes, it's that he loves to renege on them. So you can look forward to the satisfaction of him stiffing Musk very publicly. And if there's another thing we know, it's that he loves to feud with and ultimately expel people from his inner circle, especially if they have too much power or if they're getting too much attention. So I do feel confident we can look forward to Trump publicly and nationally humiliating Elon Musk. And I, I am excited for that. It's going to be fun. You know, of course, I was not the only one to. But every week I felt like I had to come on and apologize to people for how wrong I had gotten it, because they stayed together for months, and after months of eating crow, they decided to try to deprive me of my big moment of celebration. But I texted you, of course, the moment it happened, to say, look. Look at what they did to me, because this is about me. I'm at the story. Yeah.
- [53:27]
Jon Favreau
I was so happy that day. Were you so happy?
- [53:29]
Max Fisher
Oh, my God. Amazing day. Amazing. And an amazing day, specifically on the Elon Musk owned platform X, where everybody was making of Elon Musk, which was really great. It was. You know what it was like? It was like Trump. It was a mini Trump Covid day again.
- [53:43]
Jon Favreau
So, so many people made that reference. They were like, is this the best day since Trump got Covid? I've heard from. Look, I don't. I don't wish anyone ill, but I heard that from a few people. I heard that from a few people.
- [53:56]
Max Fisher
Yeah, it was. It was a feeling that I think came back to all of us, where it was so fun to follow all the updates in real time. And there was something really nice about watching the people who have been tormenting us, seemingly for no reason other than to torment us over the last few months. To finally get a little well owed humiliation. I don't know what it's going to actually come to. I don't think it's going to be good for Tesla stock price. Other than that, maybe not much. I don't know if I believe Donald Trump's threat that he's going to like cut Elon subsidies and all the contracts for Starlink because I don't think he knows how to do that.
- [54:33]
Jon Favreau
I don't think, yeah, I don't think.
- [54:34]
Max Fisher
He knows what a subsidy is or had a council one. I think he just knows how to post on Truth Social. But what do you think? Do you think it's going to matter?
- [54:41]
Jon Favreau
I, well, it feels like right now we have an uneasy daytime. They talk, you know, they find they wish each other well. It feels like they're maybe they're both a little wary of each other of like, of pissing each other off too much. Pissing the other one off too much. Elon certainly like he was the first one to start, you know, even before today he deleted the, the Jeffrey Epstein post. The Trump should be impeached post. Classics, A couple classics.
- [55:13]
Max Fisher
So he listen, sometimes you get in a fight with your friend and you call for them to be impeached and on the national stage that just, yeah, that's what it is.
- [55:21]
Jon Favreau
They were involved in a, in a pedophilia range. You know, they, you just, that's, that's something that you just do in public after you worked for them in the government at the highest levels. So I don't, it seems like Elon is a little, was a little afraid of pissing Trump off too much because he know he needs those, he needs the government to be on his side, especially a government that is as authoritarian as Donald Trump's, which he knows very well. And then I can't quite make out what Trump is thinking here because usually when he doesn't like someone he just goes, you know, he goes, he goes wild. He's all in. And he has seemed like a little more reserved on this than I expected, but I don't quite know why. Unless he just thinks, you know, Elon Musk is, is not a good enemy to have because he's so rich and has such a big megaphone. I don't know what do you think?
- [56:14]
Max Fisher
I was really struck by that too. And there was something reported in the post. I think that he told, that Trump told Vance, like, let's make too big of a thing out of this. Let's not attack Elon Musk too much publicly like now, obviously, Trump surprised, lost control of himself and decided to do some angry posts. Anyway, it did seem really striking to me that the one thing that he was really threatening Elon Musk over was don't donate to the Democrats. There was a post that he did, and then he did an interview with NBC News where he said there would be serious consequences for Musk if he did that. Which, first of all, we should pause and just appreciate the fact that that is straight up authoritarianism to say, I am going to use the power of the state to punish someone if they donate to the opposition party. But that's just the country that we live in now, I guess. But that I feel like that spoke to. If he is afraid of something, that might be the thing that he is afraid of. Because I think that he and Elon Musk both believe that Musk's money swung the election, which there's another crazy thing that happened that we all just acknowledged and chosen to move on from, is that Elon Musk is, and it is tweeted, meltdown. He was like, you know, without me, Trump never would have won and the Republicans wouldn't have taken the House. Can you believe their ingratitude? And it's like, oh, so we're just admitting now that we're buying elections after eight years of pretending to think that the Democrats are like, after eight years, have drained the swamp and stopped this deal. We're just acknowledging, like, no, no, we're the ones. Republicans who are buying the elections.
- [57:42]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah.
- [57:43]
Jon Favreau
I also think that, you know, if you. If you're matching these two up in a battle, and if we're going to stick with a war metaphor here, you know, Trump, def. Trump has. Trump has the bigger army as the. The most powerful person in the world. But I think Trump realized that. Realizes that Elon could do some damage via guerrilla warfare. Right. Like, he. He has a lot of posters. He's posting. He has a big mega. It's the money. Right. But it's also the megaphone. And I do wonder if, like, Elon could really sort of fuck up the MAGA narrative around Trump is, you know, everything's wonderful and everyone's loyal and everything's perfect. I don't. I don't think Trump wants to risk that if he can.
- [58:25]
Jesse Armstrong
Right.
- [58:26]
Max Fisher
And he's someone who, going back to his New York real estate days, sees the people who have a lot of money as the really important ones and the really powerful ones, because that's the world he lived in. And to do a like. Like political history Take on this, like absolutely every single rising authoritarian regime like in history, like, you know, Pinochet, Putin, Orban, Hitler, like every, anyone that you wanted. The small ones, the big ones. The same thing happens every time, which is that some set of business elites and oligarchs think we can control this guy, so they buy in early thinking that they're going to turn him into a pawn. And inevitably what happens is that that strong turns on them because he sees them as a threat in turn and as something to bring to heel. But there is, and again, you see this, like, especially with Putin and his first 10 years in office, there's this awkward early stage where Putin was like kind of going after the oligarchs, but kind of still needed them. And I think that what you see in Trump is that he knows he can't take on Elon now, but he can't, he can't tolerate that in his mind and in his worldview. So I know that I am just coming off of having made a prediction that was wrong for months and finally coming away from that, but let me make another one. Yes, that's right. Yes. That you can hold, absolutely hold against me. If I'm not here, you're gonna have to remind people that it was wrong. Elon Musk, I think, has been chastened and took another dose of ketamine or whatever and is walking away from it. But, but both he and Trump are thin skinned man babies who in any other context are used to getting their way, are used to getting to be the biggest bully in the room and push people around and getting the satisfaction of having won every fight. They're both walking away from this having not quite totally won to their standards. And I think because of that and because Trump cannot tolerate any sort of rival, we saw this in his first term. I think that there is a very high chance that they will fight again. Probably Trump going after Elon.
- [60:32]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [60:32]
Max Fisher
All right, put it down.
- [60:33]
Jon Favreau
Mark it down, mark it down. Max, I'm sad that you left before we could talk about this on the, on the show when it happened, but also lucky you left LA before it did become unoccupied territory. I know you have, you have missed, you have missed yet another LA crisis, which you have since when you moved here. You, you know, you experienced several. So here we are.
- [61:01]
Max Fisher
A friend texted Julie and I after we left and was like, did it turn out that you guys were keeping ice out of and this National Guard out of LA the entire time? And I was like, look, we didn't make any threats, but if they read something into our manner that they were afraid of, you know the timeline does match up. Well, I will be. I know that you all are doing your best to provoke Soros riots, so I will be polling for all of.
- [61:26]
Jon Favreau
You in that that I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Come back and restore law and order. Thank you.
- [61:31]
Max Fisher
Anytime.
- [61:31]
Jon Favreau
Max. Good talking to you buddy.
- [61:33]
Max Fisher
Yeah, you too.
- [61:35]
Jon Favreau
As always, if you have comments, questions or guest ideas, email us@offliner crooked.com and if you're as opinionated as we are, please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform. For ad free episodes of Offline and Pod, Save America exclusive content and more. Join our friends at the pod subscription community@cricket.com friends and if you like watching your podcast, subscribe to the Offline with Jon Favreau YouTube channel. Don't forget to follow Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and the other ones for original content, community events and more. Offline is a Crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. The show is produced by Off Austin Fisher and Emma Ilik. Frank Jordan Kanter is our Sound editor. Audio support from Charlotte Landis and Kyle Seglin. Delon Villanueva produces our videos each week. Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer and Adrienne Hill for production support. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [62:44]
Jesse Armstrong
Sam.