The Surgeon General's Very Offline Parting Message (and a Comically Online Holiday Segment)

Summary

Summary of "Offline with Jon Favreau"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Offline with Jon Favreau
• Host/Author: Crooked Media
• Episode: The Surgeon General's Very Offline Parting Message (and a Comically Online Holiday Segment)
• Release Date: December 22, 2024
• Description: This episode delves into the impact of the internet and technology on our mental health and community structures, featuring an intimate interview with Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with an advertisement for Lenovo's "Life With Machines" podcast, hosted by Baratunde Thurston, discussing AI's role in society. Jon Favreau humorously acknowledges his recent personal experiences post-election, emphasizing the importance of meaningful connections over superficial interactions.

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2. Interview with Surgeon General Vivek Murthy

A. Frequent Guest and Parting Prescription

• Timestamp: [03:48]
• Context: This marks Dr. Murthy's third appearance on the show, highlighting his continued involvement and the significance of his message.

B. Importance of Community

• Timestamp: [04:36]
• Key Points:
  • Dr. Murthy introduces his "parting prescription" for America: Choose Community.
  • Emphasizes three pillars essential for health, happiness, and fulfillment: Relationships, Purpose, and Service.
  • Quote: “Relationships, purpose and service are the pillars of community. They're what make a community work.” [04:50]

C. Health Consequences of Eroding Community

• Timestamp: [06:43]
• Key Points:
  • Breakdown of both physical (e.g., heart disease, dementia) and mental health issues (e.g., depression, anxiety) linked to weakened community ties.
  • Broader societal impacts, including education performance and workplace productivity.
  • Quote: “This has major implications for our physical and mental health, but also for education, for economic productivity, and ultimately for the security of our country.” [07:05]

D. Global Perspective on Community Erosion

• Timestamp: [08:10]
• Key Points:
  • Dr. Murthy shares insights from his trips to Japan, India, and the UK, noting similar trends of loneliness and isolation globally.
  • Highlights Japan's proactive measures, such as "children's cafeterias," to foster community.
  • Quote: “Japan has been ahead of the curve in recognizing that loneliness and isolation are profound issues.” [08:27]

E. Role of Technology and Social Media

• Timestamp: [10:35]
• Key Points:
  • Acknowledges technology and social media as significant contributors to the decline in community bonds.
  • Discusses how technology reduces the necessity for face-to-face interactions, exacerbating feelings of isolation.
  • Quote: “Technology ... made it less necessary for us to interact with each other.” [11:15]

F. Addressing Skepticism and Emphasizing Data

• Timestamp: [15:14]
• Key Points:
  • Responds to critiques labeling his focus on loneliness as vague or unscientific.
  • Presents scientific data equating loneliness to major public health issues like smoking and obesity.
  • Quote: “Loneliness and isolation is an important and essential public health issue as well.” [17:53]

G. Solutions: Policy and Individual Actions

• Timestamp: [19:25]
• Key Points:
  • Advocates for both structural changes (e.g., investing in social infrastructure) and individual actions (e.g., daily acts of connection) to rebuild community.
  • Describes practical initiatives like the "5 for 5 Challenge" to encourage daily connections.
  • Quote: “These small steps actually really can make a difference in our lives.” [22:00]

H. Impact of Political Climate on Community Building

• Timestamp: [27:14]
• Key Points:
  • Discusses how political polarization hampers efforts to rebuild community.
  • Highlights the necessity of bipartisan efforts to address systemic issues like healthcare and economic inequality.
  • Quote: “Without building community, everything else that we want to do is going to be harder.” [27:23]

I. Recent Healthcare System Challenges

• Timestamp: [29:50]
• Key Points:
  • Analyzes the tragic murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson within the context of systemic healthcare frustrations.
  • Emphasizes the need for compassionate healthcare systems to prevent feelings of alienation and desperation.
  • Quote: “Violence never is the answer. And healthcare should be a system that serves people.” [30:49]

J. Vision for Successor and Future Initiatives

• Timestamp: [43:52]
• Key Points:
  • Shares hopes for his successor to prioritize empathy, community values, and continued efforts to rebuild societal bonds.
  • Expresses personal intentions to focus on family and further community-building initiatives post-tenure.
  • Quote: “I want to take some time to, to be with my family, to take them on a vacation.” [44:17]
  • Quote: “I want my kids and your kids and all of our kids to be able to grow up in a world where people care about each other.” [49:22]

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3. Holiday Segment: Bad Tweets Bracket

A. Introduction to the Segment

• Timestamp: [54:37]
• Context: Jeremiah Johnson introduces the "Bad Tweets Bracket," a segment where the hosts and guests discuss and vote on the worst tweets of 2024.

B. Examples and Analysis

• Jon Favreau:

  • Discusses tweets urging political figures to drop out, highlighting absurd and toxic rhetoric prevalent on social media.
  • Quote: “Politics and rape culture are too similar for comfort.” [80:56]

• Max Fisher:

  • Shares humorous takes on tweets reflecting frustration and anger stemming from political discourse.
  • Quote: “I have to tell you, I think 2020 was so much worse.” [56:30]

• Jeremiah Johnson:

  • Critiques the snotty tone and lack of constructive dialogue in certain tweets.
  • Quote: “I'm a pretty chill guy, but anytime somebody says, hope that helps, ... I start thinking about the death penalty.” [81:07]

C. Host Interactions

• The hosts engage in light-hearted banter, mocking the often nonsensical and inflammatory nature of bad tweets.
• Quote: “If you don't think people are going to point that out, it is.” [66:00]

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4. Listener Questions and Offline Challenge Announcement

• Timestamp: [55:03] to [71:26]
• Context: Jon and Max address listener-submitted questions, ranging from social media dilemmas to hypothetical scenarios about returning to flip phones.
• Offline Challenge:
  • Announcement of a new "offline challenge" focused on improving focus and attention, moving beyond simply reducing screen time.
  • Quote: “We're gonna have lots of ways for people to follow along, things that you can do at home to work on your focus and attention as well.” [71:26]

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5. Conclusion and Closing Remarks

• Timestamp: [74:37] to [90:37]

• Context: The episode wraps up with final thoughts, promotions for other Crooked Media projects, and a brief interaction with Jeremiah Johnson on his substack "Infinite Scroll."

• Final Quote from Dr. Murthy:

  • Emphasizes the ultimate importance of community in ensuring personal and societal well-being.
  • Quote: “If we can build this kind of community for ourselves, for the people we love, for our kids, then we will be giving them one of the most powerful gifts that we can.” [52:38]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Vivek Murthy:

  • “Relationships, purpose and service are the pillars of community. They're what make a community work.” [04:50]
  • “Loneliness and isolation is an important and essential public health issue as well.” [17:53]
  • “These small steps actually really can make a difference in our lives.” [22:00]
  • “Without building community, everything else that we want to do is going to be harder.” [27:23]
  • “If we can build this kind of community for ourselves, for the people we love, for our kids, then we will be giving them one of the most powerful gifts that we can.” [52:38]

• Jon Favreau:

  • “I came to realize that five minutes spent on the phone talking to a friend where I'm fully present is often much more satisfying than a half an hour of distracted conversation.” [19:25]

• Max Fisher:

  • “I think 2020 was so much worse. The infighting during the Democratic primary was so toxic and so vicious.” [56:30]

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Key Insights and Conclusions

1. Community as a Pillar of Health: Surgeon General Vivek Murthy underscores the critical role of community in maintaining both mental and physical health. He identifies relationships, purpose, and service as foundational elements that are currently eroding in modern society.

2. Impact of Technology and Social Media: While technology facilitates certain conveniences, it also contributes to decreased face-to-face interactions, fostering feelings of loneliness and isolation. Social media, in particular, exacerbates issues related to self-esteem and societal pressures.

3. Global Trends and Solutions: The erosion of community is not unique to the United States. Countries like Japan are taking proactive steps to address loneliness through community-centric initiatives. However, similar challenges persist worldwide, necessitating both structural reforms and individual efforts to rebuild social bonds.

4. Political Polarization Hindering Community Building: The current political climate, marked by significant polarization, complicates efforts to foster a unified sense of community. Dr. Murthy advocates for bipartisan collaboration to tackle systemic issues that threaten societal cohesion.

5. Personal and Policy-Level Interventions: Rebuilding community requires a dual approach. On one hand, policy-level changes are essential to support social infrastructure. On the other, individuals must engage in daily acts of connection to strengthen their personal relationships and sense of belonging.

6. The Role of Empathy and Shared Values: Empathy emerges as a crucial trait for fostering community. Encouraging empathy and shared values can bridge divides and promote collective action towards common goals.

7. Reflection on Recent Events: The tragic murder of a healthcare CEO serves as a stark reminder of the frustrations within the healthcare system and its broader impact on societal trust and community integrity.

8. Future Directions: Dr. Murthy expresses hope for his successor to continue prioritizing community and empathy. He personally plans to focus on family and broader community-building initiatives, emphasizing the long-term benefits of a connected and caring society.

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Conclusion:

This episode of "Offline with Jon Favreau" offers a profound exploration of how technology and social fragmentation are impacting our collective well-being. Through an engaging conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of rebuilding community ties to enhance health, happiness, and societal resilience. The accompanying segments on social media discourse and the "Bad Tweets Bracket" provide a humorous yet critical examination of contemporary online behaviors, reinforcing the episode's central themes.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

Lenovo is sponsoring Life With Machines, a new video podcast hosted by comedian and tech whiz Baratunde Thurston, where he discusses all things AI. Lenovo Smarter AI is your AI. Personalized and easy to scale, Smarter AI delivers outcomes that matter most to you and your business with full stack AI hardware, software and service solutions. Lenovo is bringing the transformative power of AI to industries, organizations, and people of all kinds. Discover how Lenovo and Baratunde are using AI for good to power people forward. Listen to Life With Machines now streaming wherever you listen to podcasts. After the election, I was doing a lot of comforting of others, and I guess I hadn't realized how much I needed someone to ask me, like, how I'm doing. You were one of the first people who actually reached out outside of my immediate family and asked how I was doing. And I was telling my wife Emily that, and she's like, I mean, that's amazing. She goes, I'm also a little troubled by the fact that the Surgeon General had to check in on you. She's like, I don't know what that says about you. We are just looking for someone to recognize us, see us dig a little deeper than, hey, how's it going? And then just move on. Which I do all the time to people, hey, how's it going? And then you just move on.

[Vivek Murthy]

What you said is exactly right. And I think it's really deceptive from the outside, because on the outside, it looks like everyone's got everything figured out, that they're living great lives, they're hanging out with lots of friends, and that they're constantly engaged with social events. The reality is, like, profoundly different. It's a lot of people who are bumping into others but feeling like they can't be themselves. They're walking around with masks on, feeling like they need to perform in some way. They're feeling like people don't necessarily know them for who they are.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Favreau.

[Max Fisher]

I'm Max Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

And you just heard from today's guest, Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. If you're a longtime listener, you know the Surgeon General has been a frequent offline guest.

[Max Fisher]

Would you call him the number one friend of the pod at this point?

[Jon Favreau]

I. He's been on three times.

[Max Fisher]

Is he really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. This will be the third time.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, at this point, he's just auditioning for third chair, basically, right?

[Jon Favreau]

He is, yeah. Watch out.

[Vivek Murthy]

I think.

[Max Fisher]

I think it'd be good.

[Vivek Murthy]

No, no, no.

[Max Fisher]

There's room at the table. He's just got to squeeze in next to Luigi Mancione.

[Jon Favreau]

Too soon. Not soon enough.

[Max Fisher]

Who knows? Like, they have Zoom in prison, right? They have r. Not get myself in trouble. Come on.

[Jon Favreau]

Not doing it. Okay. The Surgeon General and I have talked about everything from doom scrolling to loneliness to the harmful effects of social media on young people. I always feel better and learn something whenever he's on the show. So when Dr. Murthy reached out to let me know he'd be here in LA and was releasing his parting prescription for America soon, I thought it'd be worthwhile to chat one more time before he leaves the job. So we talked about why his final message is all about community and his successors plan to ban social media for young people and a lot more. A quick note before we get into that interview, we're going to do things a little differently this week. First up, you're going to hear my interview with the Surgeon General. And then, as a fun little holiday treat, Max and I are going to answer some listener questions. And then friend of the pod, Jeremiah Johnson, joins us to talk about the worst tweets of 2024. There is a bracket.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

This episode is a. It's a. It's a healthy feast followed by a dessert, followed by another dessert. That's even worse for you.

[Jon Favreau]

That's right. That's right. So here's my conversation with Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. Surgeon General, welcome back to the show.

[Vivek Murthy]

Thanks so much, John. It's good to be back with you.

[Jon Favreau]

You are now the most frequent offline guest, which I love. Yeah. This is the third time on the show, and we've only had a couple repeat guests, but you're the first three timer.

[Vivek Murthy]

Oh, my gosh. Well, how about that?

[Jon Favreau]

You and I connected a few weeks ago. You told me you were working with.

[Vivek Murthy]

Do I get anything special, like at Apple?

[Jon Favreau]

There will be, yeah. We'll have a gift bag for you.

[Vivek Murthy]

On the way out, which is exciting.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, we connected a few weeks ago. You said you were working on your parting prescription for the country and that you were going to be here in la. When you told me what the topic was, I couldn't wait to talk to you about it, because it's a theme that runs through the shows I host, the work I did in politics, why I got into this line of work in the first place. Your parting prescription is to choose community. There are so many health challenges that you've talked about during your two terms as Surgeon General. What made you want to elevate and prioritize community as your parting prescription.

[Vivek Murthy]

Well, thanks, John. I've been thinking about this parting prescription for a long time, and in many ways it's a culmination of two terms. Having served, you know, as Surgeon General, really reflecting on a lot of the stories I heard, a lot of the science I encountered, and a lot of discussions I had with experts across a range of fields, not just in health, but sociology and everywhere else. And here's what I, I, I realized, John, that there was this deeper river of pain and unhappiness that was flowing through people's lives, and it wasn't one particular type of group. I've seen this among people who are older, younger, in rural and urban areas, people who had a lot of resources, people didn't have a lot. Now, there are explanations for this that we come across in the paper, and a lot of them are real and true, like economic uncertainty. A lot of people are concerned about security. People are worried about an uncertain future and how to prepare their kids for it. These are real and these are things that have to be addressed because they affect our happiness. But I started to realize that even when we address those structural issues, John, that there's still something missing in people's lives. And I realize that three of the essential ingredients to health, happiness and fulfillment have been eroding actually in our lives. And those are relationships, purpose and service. Relationships, purpose and service are the pillars of community. They're what make a community work. Because in any community or society, for it to really function and function well, to enhance people's overall well being, we have to know each other, we have to help each other, and we have to be invested in each other. And that's what tracks with relationships, with service and with purpose. So that the prescription that I'm going to be sharing with the country before I leave office in January is centered around these three pillars of community, about how we can rebuild them, how we can recenter our lives and society around them. And by doing so, they can help really rebuild the foundation for health, happiness and fulfillment that we all need in our lives.

[Jon Favreau]

This erosion of community, what are the health consequences? And are they mostly physical? Are they mental? Are they both? Could you talk about some of what you found?

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah, this is what's really striking because we tend not to necessarily think about community as something that's health oriented. But what I came to see is these three dimensions of community. In particular, relationships, purpose and service are very tightly linked to our health. So and when they erode, we see an increase in physical Illness like heart disease, stroke, dementia, premature death. We also see an increase in mental illness, increased risk of depression, anxiety, suicide. But the ripple effects actually go even beyond that when you look outside of health. We know that when kids are actually more deeply connected to each other in school, they actually perform better. When people actually have strong social connections in the workplace, it enhances their engagement, their creativity, their productivity, and has implications for retention. And if we look at the country right now, not just our country, but many other countries as well, we see that there's this growing division and polarization and that takes root when community breaks down. And so if you are, for example, a foreign adversary who's trying to think, how can I target or weaken the United States? What you would do is you would find populations that are struggling with high rates of loneliness and isolation, where people aren't invested in one another, because you know that it's easy to turn people against one another in those communities with misinformation, for example. So this has major implications, community for our physical and mental health, but also for education, for economic productivity, and ultimately for the security of our country.

[Jon Favreau]

Is this a uniquely American phenomenon? Do you notice this worldwide? Are there certain places where you can point to conditions and say, you know, they have a stronger sense of community and have better overall well being because of it?

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah, you know, this isn't uniquely American. And I actually just spent time in Japan and India and the U.K. you know, earlier this year, and I saw a lot of really similar trends to what we're seeing. And we can talk about why, because I think a lot of the root causes of what's degrading and eroding community in the United States are at play in other countries too. But with that said, there are countries are different places when it comes to actually working on remedying the situation. You take Japan, for example. Japan has been ahead of the curve in recognizing that loneliness and isolation are profound issues. So the relationship piece of community they've been working very hard on that actually passed legislation to put more investment into community. They've built up these fascinating programs called children's cafeterias in over a thousand locations in Japan, where people prepare food as volunteers and they open their doors to the whole community at a local public place where it could be a park, it could be a faith organization, and then people come and they just gather on a regular basis every week. And so Japan has been ahead of the curve there. But if you had blindfolded me when I was having some of these conversations with students in India and the UK and changed people's accents. I wouldn't have known if I highways in India or in Lincoln, Nebraska or Washington, D.C. because a lot of what the students say is actually remarkably similar about their struggles with loneliness and isolation. They talk about how it feels like people just don't really care about each other and they feel like they're struggling a lot of times on their own. But they also talk about the destination that society is driving them toward. The model of success as being largely defined by wealth, power and fame. Those three things seem to be driving the picture of success that they feel that they've got to drive toward as well. And they don't necessarily always want to do that or think that it's going to make them happy, but they also don't want to be left behind. And so a lot of this world, by the way of, and this definition of success, this triad of success, of fame, fortune and power is really amplified online, you know, and, and that's why where you see countries across the board being impacted by this and it's driving a cultural shift that I worry has actually been quite harmful for our well being.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean, obviously I, I'm biased towards that explanation because of the show that social media and, and too much time on our phones and our screens are causing some of this. I mean, as you say, you know, wealth, wealth, power and fame, these have been with us for a long time and sort of the drive to wealth, power and fame, prior to phones, prior to the Internet. Um, do you, how much, how much of a cause of these problems do you think the Internet and social media are? Are there other issues that have changed over time?

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Making this a bigger problem now than it used to be, or is it, do you identify sort of technology as the main culprit?

[Vivek Murthy]

So I think it's one of the culprits, but it's not the only one. I think what's happened over time is that we've also had just a weakening of the institutions that used to bring us together. Right. And allow us to not just build relationships, but engage in service to our community together and find common purpose. Like whether those are faith organizations or community service groups or recreational leagues or social clubs, Participation in all of these has declined over the last half century in the United States. If you add technology. And what's interesting about technology is it's not only the impact of social media, which I think has been profound and often negative for many people in terms of pushing them toward this intense culture of self, of constant comparison. Comparison. It eroded the Self esteem of young people profoundly and pushed them toward the triad of success, you know, fame, fortune and power. But the other piece about technology more broadly is it's made it less necessary for us to interact with each other, right? So I can get groceries delivered to my house, products, you know, that I want, like, I don't need to go to the store, they just come to my house and what I really need to go out and see anyone anymore, you know, And I think Covid. What was interesting about the very beginning of COVID that first year when many of us weren't seeing many people, so a lot of folks were like, oh, I didn't realize how much I miss just seeing people in coffee shops or just seeing someone in the grocery store or saying hello to the person at the cash register. Those interactions actually make a real difference. But finally, I'd just say this, you know, the pursuit of fame, fortune and power, that's not new, right? Like, that's been like part of civilization for God knows how long. But there are two things that are really different. One is that the emphasis on that has dramatically increased with technology in particular and with sort of online influencers and social media particularly. But the other piece that has happened is there has been a weakening of the forces that have pushed us toward relationships and purpose and service. So this forces that we're actually supporting and driving community and that we're in particular driving the values and virtues that support community. Values like generosity, kindness, courage, love. These forces have also diminished in our lives, right? They just think about, like generosity and kindness. Like, when I talk to people across the country today, they often ask me, they say, vivek, why is it that it's become more important to be right than to be kind? More important to be like, powerful than to be just. Why do we care less about each other? Why are we always. Why is it all about pushing ourselves ahead at all costs? And people don't want to live in that kind of world, but when they see that world around them and it's largely amplified online, they also don't want to be left behind, right? So if it feels like serving other people makes you a sucker because you're doing that instead of spending time advancing your own career or building your brand, then that's not good, you know, for society overall. So I do think that we don't talk about values enough, John. I think we shy away from them a lot of times because we think, oh, that's really personal. We don't want to alienate people. Maybe people associate it with faith or religion. But the truth is there are a common set of values that we all actually do care about, that we want to see our kids, you know, live out, that we want to see society structured around, like, kindness and generosity. And we need to be more explicit, not only about talking about them, but about elevating the kind of people and organizations that are exemplifying those. Because every time somebody tells me, hey, you know, I don't really agree with this person in terms of their character or their moral, you know, sort of beliefs and. But, you know, I really like their, their policy on this particular issue, whether it's taxes or on school vouchers or whatever it is that worries me because something that you know better than almost anyone, John, is that the decisions that leaders make, 90, 99% of them are made behind closed doors when no one's really watching. And what's guiding them in those moments are their values. Right? So I want us to get to a place where, where we can lift up people who are exemplifying the core values that support community, because that's ultimately what we need. That's what I want my kids to see as they grow up as well.

[Jon Favreau]

So over the summer, you talked to a physician who writes for the Atlantic named Benjamin Mazer for a piece that was quite critical of your focus on loneliness and well being. Most of it unfairly in my view, but basically the idea is, you know, and I've heard this from other people when I talk about this stuff, that it's too vague and subjective and hard to measure and it's soft. I think he even called this goofy. I'm sure it's like not the first time that you face skepticism about this, especially as a physician, as a healthcare professional. What do you say to help people see differently who may be skeptical of this focus? And this is something to focus on.

[Vivek Murthy]

Well, I'll tell you one thing that's really interesting, John, that I didn't expect is that the focus that I've had on mental health more broadly and on issues like loneliness and isolation have actually been received remarkably positively by people in ways that I actually didn't fully expect. I thought there would be a lot more skepticism, but I think part of the reason there hasn't been has been, number one, I think many people are seeing this problem in their own lives. I remember when I came into office for my first term, when President Obama was president, the opioid epidemic was raging, like in the country. And it still remains a profound challenge today. But in that moment, even Though opioids and addiction wasn't something that we talked about a ton in medicine over the prior 20, 30 years, many people, when you, when I remember talking about it on the road, people had an instant sort of recognition that this is important because they knew people in their lives who were struggling in this moment. Today, when I ask audiences, whenever I travel, how many people know somebody who's really struggling with loneliness and isolation, Almost every hand goes up. So I think that's one of the reasons, actually it's been embraced quite deeply. But the other thing that's been interesting is that many people weren't aware of the health impacts of loneliness. They thought it was just a bad feeling. And the truth is I was one of those people also years ago. I never studied it in medical school, we never came up in a residency training. But when you dig into the science, that's when you really see the powerful impact that social disconnection has on our risk for cardiovascular disease and dementia, the impact it has on our risk for suicide and depression and anxiety, but also the overall mortality risk that it has, which is comparable to smoking and obesity. And we think about smoking obesity as classic public health issues. And what the science is now telling us is that this loneliness and isolation is a important and essential public health issue as well. But finally, I just look at a lot of this through the lens of history, right? Which is that 30, 40 years ago, if you were talking about mental health, people have said that's not really an important part of health. If you talked about nutrition, John, people would have said, yeah, maybe that's interesting, but it's not really central to health. When I was in med school, you know what my nutrition education was, John?

[Jon Favreau]

What?

[Vivek Murthy]

It was a seven week course that met once a week in the evenings and it was optional. That was nutrition education.

[Jon Favreau]

Good way to get people to go.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah. But it reflected this notion that I guess it's just not that important now. Now we know so much better. We know that, wow, nutrition really is important, essential for health. So over time what we've done is we've been using data and science to expand the lens through which we look at health and through which we understand the factors that contribute to health. And it's becoming incredibly clear, as the WHO and many other entities have now recognized, that social health is an extraordinarily important part of our health that impacts our physical and mental well being.

[Jon Favreau]

I wonder if one of the reasons it's hard for people to sort of wrap their arms around this as a health issue is the Solutions to, you know, you mentioned smoking, right? Get people to stop smoking, nutrition, we can figure out what healthier foods are and how do people take better care of yourselves with loneliness and community? It feels like it requires so many different societal wide solutions and actions to improve this. And I don't know, I wonder if that's why sometimes people have a hard time figuring out, okay, I can see the problem, I know someone who is lonely, who's struggling, but I don't quite know where the solutions lie. Is it individual? Is it new policy, legislation, Is it like, you know, how do you, how do you think about that?

[Vivek Murthy]

I think you're raising a really good point because in the face of what feel like really big intractable problems, it's easy to feel powerless and paralyzed. And we see that actually with a number of health issues. When people look at the obesity epidemic in our country, it also feels overwhelming, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, so many factors around me, the food availability, you know, the health and quality of food, et cetera, that impacts people's overall health and weight when it comes to loneliness and isolation. While there are like, things that we can do at a policy and programmatic level that I've laid out in, you know, in advisories over the years, it turns out that there are relatively simple steps we can take in our individual lives that can make a much bigger difference than you might think on the surface. So, for example, if we make it a point to do one thing each day to reach out to someone we care about, and we just do that consistently over time, it can be for five minutes. It could be, for example, like when we're going to work in the morning, I call you and say, hey, hey, John, I'm just checking in, I want to see how your day's going. What do you got planned for the week? It could be you call your mother, you know, on the way to work for five minutes, but you do that consistently, it actually will make a real big difference in how connected you feel. If you do one small thing to help someone each day, right? It could be you notice somebody drop their groceries in the grocery store, you help them pick it up. Could be you've got, you notice a colleague is really struggling during a work meeting and you just take a couple minutes afterwards just to check in on them and see how they're doing. That will also make a big difference in your life. These seem like almost disarmingly simple, right? Like, how could some five minutes make a big difference in my life? But because we are so Hardwired for a connection. John It. Our body responds profoundly when we have even a few minutes of genuine connection. It's why one of the things that I had to remember in my own life was that when it comes to connection, quality is what really matters, right? And one of the most powerful levers that we have to force multipliers, as I think of it, is our attention. So when I would talk to people on the phone, I realized years ago that I was getting into this bad habit of multitasking when I was on the phone. So I'd call a friend to catch up. We wouldn't have talked in months, be like, oh, my God, awesome, we're finally going to catch up. And then when I'm on the phone with them, I'm like, sorting through papers, or maybe I'm checking the scores on espn, my favorite website, or maybe I'm doing something else, checking my inbox, whatever it is, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I can multitask. I can pay attention. But the reality is that we now know from a science perspective, our brains don't multitask. What they do is they rapidly task switch, right? And so that time that I may be able to recall some of the words my friend said, but I've missed the nuance, I've missed the pause, and I'm not reacting right. And so one of the things I realized is that five minutes spent on the phone talking to a friend where I'm fully present is often much more satisfying than a half an hour of distracted conversation. So these small steps actually really can make a difference in our lives. And it's one of the reasons why last year, when we were doing our college campus tour, focused on loneliness and isolation, we actually posed a challenge, what we call our 5 for 5 challenge to the students, which is we asked them for five days to take one act of connection each day. And it could be simply reaching out to extend help to somebody, reaching out to extend appreciation to someone, or asking for help, one of those three things. And we'll often do an exercise with them right there in the room. John. We'll ask them, we'll say it's just going to take 60 seconds. So first 30 seconds, just think about somebody that you're grateful for. Maybe it's somebody who just checked on you yesterday, or somebody who showed up last year when you were in crisis. And then the next 30 seconds, pull out your phone because you were going to be teaching how to use technology for good, pull out your phone and just compose an email or a text message to that person right now and just say, hey, I was thinking about you and about how you showed up. For me, that just really meant a lot. Thank you. Could be something that simple and just send it. And when they finish sending it, we ask them to turn the flashlight on on their phone and to hold it up. And the room is usually dim at this point. I can tell you, I've been now in so many rooms and auditoriums with all of these lights, hundreds of lights flashing up into the ceiling, each one representing, like, a point of connection that's gone out, that somebody was going to catch on the other end and feel really good and feel like, ah, I feel like somebody has remembered me. I feel like I matter. I feel like I belong. And that's the power of what you can do in 60 seconds. So I try to encourage people to recognize that, yes, we've got to do things on the structural side to, number one, invest more in social connections, support organizations that bring people together, support the building of social infrastructure, the planning of cities in ways that actually enhance, you know, social interaction and engagement. These are all things we can do and should do. But that doesn't take away from the things we can start doing right now. With just a little bit of time and a little bit of attention, we can forge extraordinarily powerful social connection that can help us feel like we belong, which is what we all fundamentally crave.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's so true. And I've experienced it. I mean, after the election, you could probably imagine I was doing a lot of comforting of others, people asking me, what happened? What's going to happen now? Are we going to be okay? And I guess I hadn't realized how much I needed someone to ask me, like, how I'm doing. You were one of the first people who actually reached out outside of my immediate family and. And asked how I was doing. And I was telling my wife, Emily, that. And she's like, I mean, that's amazing. She goes, I'm also a little troubled by the fact that the Surgeon General had to check in on you. She's like, that's. That's. I don't know what that says about you, but. But it is, I think, because I. It made me think, first of all, I felt really good, so thank you. But we are just looking for someone to, like, recognize us, see us.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Ask us how we are, ask us what's going on, like, dig a little deeper than, hey, how's it going? And then just, like, move on, which I do all the Time to people, you know, hey, how's it going? And then you just move on.

[Vivek Murthy]

What you said is exactly right. And I think it's really deceptive from the outside because on the outside it looks like everyone's got everything figured out. That they're living great lives or they're hanging out with lots of friends and that they're constantly engaged with social events. Like that's what it looks like from the outside. The reality is like profoundly different. It's a lot of people who are bumping into others but feeling like they can't be themselves. They're walking around with masks on, feeling like they need to perform in some way. They're feeling like they can't. People don't necessarily know them for who they are. And I've realized that, you know, we live in this incredibly over, over scheduled world, right? So like you want to get together with friends and you try to calendar something, it's like, oh, you know, weeks, months, thinking, I don't know when we're free. But I've also realized sometimes that my wife and I will, sometimes we'll just like call somebody like out of the blue and be like, hey, what are you doing tonight? You want to just like swing by like nobody did? We'll just like pick up something together. Or do you want to just come by after work, even just have coffee with us? Or you're on your way to the airport, you're in town, just want to stop by for 15 minutes and say hello. A lot of people actually have that time.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Vivek Murthy]

You know, and so we have found.

[Jon Favreau]

Also some of the best encounters.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yes, exactly. And so we have found that sometimes just this spontaneous or like, you know, sort of, you know, with not a whole lot of planning type of encounters can be the best. But we also have just realized, like never to say no to the five or ten minute encounter. Like if you got a friend who's like, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm like booked up with stuff today, but I can stop by for five minutes on the way to the airport. Or do you want to like just swing by, like my event when it ends? I have 10 minutes. Maybe I could, we could just say hello. Always say yes to those things because that five minutes, just in person, it just makes such a difference because that's how we were meant to connect. Not just to enjoy the content of what someone is saying, but to see their facial expression, to hear the sound of their voice, to just feel the proximity, you know, physical proximity to them. We absorb all of that and that helps us feel more deeply connected to each other.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of the election, how have the results shaped your thinking on the challenge of building community in America right now?

[Vivek Murthy]

Well, I think that we have been struggling for a number of years now in terms of the breakdown of community. And I actually think that regardless of what the election outcome was, we were going to have a big task ahead of us when it came to rebuilding community. Look, I understand why folks who work in policy, whether they're policymakers or people who advise policymakers, why sometimes they find it challenging to focus on this issue. It's much easier to say there's an illness that has a drug that can cure it. How do we make that drug more accessible to people? That's much more tangible and straightforward. But sometimes the most important problems for us to address aren't necessarily convenient or they don't have simple policy solutions. It doesn't mean that they're not important. And one of the things I think that we need to do that we need people of all political persuasions to really recognize and embrace, is the idea that without building community, everything else that we want to do is going to be harder. We can't bring people together to respond to the next pandemic or to respond to economic inequality or the fact that millions of our kids still struggle with hunger. We can't bring people together around that if we're increasingly fractured and if we become more tribalistic instead of community oriented, where we focus more and more on people who are like us and exclude others, or if we look at others as negative or evil or somehow like detrimental to society. Like we just cannot function as a society if we keep going down that path. And so I actually think that the hard work of building community was going to be there regardless of the, the election outcome. And it's something that we can't entirely rely on government to do. This is actually something we primarily need to start building on the outside. And it starts with the decisions we make in our day to day lives. It starts with the workplaces that we operate, operate in and asking ourselves, how can we make our workplaces like engines for community? How can it be places where we foster actually greater engagement and service in the community? How can we create a culture where we help each other? How can we actually get to know one another more? So we build friendships, like in the workplace. Like we can start doing this in workplaces and we can do it in educational settings too. A lot of university presidents I've talked to recognize that they are experiencing a loneliness epidemic. The High school principals and educators I talk to recognize many of their kids are struggling with. Without a sense of community. These are the places we can and need to start rebuilding that community. That work needs to start right now.

[Jon Favreau]

I really wanted to get your thoughts on the biggest health story of the last several weeks, the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. But I wanted to get your thoughts within the specific context of this erosion of community you talk about. So there are Americans who are so angry at the health care system that they are expressing more sympathy for the murderer than they are for the victim. Some people have advocated more violence. Many others just say, I mean, I don't condone violence, but. And then there are a lot of other Americans who understand the anger, don't like the healthcare system either, are also frustrated, but think that, you know, political violence deserves to be condemned loudly because otherwise people will. More people will feel like it's okay, including people with views that we don't like. How do you begin to build community and solve these healthcare challenges for people when these are the parameters of the debate now?

[Vivek Murthy]

Well, look, I think two things, John, can be true at the same time. One is that the horrible murder that we saw of that CEO was absolutely wrong. That kind of violence is never acceptable. But the other thing that can also be true is that the healthcare system has not served people the way it needs to. And look, as a doctor, I have been on the side where of patients, where I've had to argue with insurance companies about prior authorizations, about other denials and other barriers that they are putting up to a patient getting the essential care that they need. I've been on the phone with insurance companies where I'm literally standing next to a patient who I know needs a rehab vet because they can't go home because they're too weak to walk. But we're having trouble getting the insurance company to approve the rehab bed. I mean, I've dealt with medications that I knew my patient needed, but they wanted to throw up barriers with prior authorizations, which would make it harder to get. And I've been on the end myself as a father, knowing my child once needed an inhaler because he had a respiratory infection and was wheezing as a result of it. But they wouldn't. This is a basic inhaler for a basic medication, not some specialty thing. And they wouldn't fill that prescription at the pharmacy without a prior authorization. And it was a Friday. I've been there for my child, too. And they're like, well, we have to Wait till Monday. I was like, this is ridiculous. Are you telling me I need to go to the emergency room with my child as opposed to getting a simple inhaler filled? So I recognize the pain of that. I've experienced it myself. And while that does not justify that pain, the murder of a CEO or anybody else in society, the truth is that people have been harmed by the broken nature of our healthcare system. And look, I think a lot of this comes back to this elements around community, because community is a place where you find meaning and belonging. But in community, you also know that you matter and that you're cared for. One of the quickest ways to tell someone they don't matter and you don't care about them is to just blanket, you know, deny the care that they need and when they're in crisis, a healthcare crisis, to tell them that you're not going to support them with getting the medications or treatment they need. And so I think a lot of people have felt that way, you know, over the years, and I think a lot of doctors and nurses who are part of the healthcare system feel very frustrated by that too. They went into their professions wanting to get care and help for patients, wanting to relieve suffering, and are finding themselves battling with insurance companies trying to get that care. So I do think that that's a fundamental problem. And look, we, those are the kind of problems we need to be talking about. You know, violence never is the answer. And healthcare should be a system that serves people and that allows them to get the care they need. Both of those things are true. And I think in this case, like if we can have a debate on a discussion about how to actually have more silver conversation about this, but to how to actually get to the heart of issues that matter, that's what I think would be productive because, you know, I think a lot of people want civil conversation, but I think the frustration they've had is that these issues, these fundamental issues just often don't get addressed. You know, people skirt them, policymakers will talk about them, maybe in the, in the heat of a campaign, but when the rubber hits the road, the system doesn't change, you know, as much as it should. Now we have made a lot of strides, right, in the last a decade or two, like when you were in government and I was in government, it was a time when, around that time is when the Affordable Care act was passed and that got brought millions of people the insurance coverage that they otherwise lacked, right? That was life saving. Those kind of changes make a real big difference. But there's still big, big broken pieces in the healthcare system, whether it's drug prices, which we finally made some progress on, or whether it's these prior authorizations and denials, and we need tangible paths to address those that people can see and believe in.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I mean, part of the reason it's been on my mind is because we went through passing the Affordable Care act. And I think having been on the campaign before that and Obama's Senate office, I thought, you know, you look at all the polls about healthcare reform, and I was like, this is. I didn't think it was gonna be easy, but I did think it would be easier than it was and that we would be able to pass more sweeping reforms even than we did. And I think that experience now, why didn't we get to do it? Obviously, there is insurance industry that you're dealing with and the prescription drug industry, which we had to wait until this administration that you're in to finally do something about. But getting to your focus, which is community, and getting people to have these conversations and understand who don't do this for a living and are living their busy lives and just want a healthcare system that actually works for them, it just. It was so difficult even back then. And now I think about where the debate has gone and something like this happens and, you know, we're talking about murder, justifying murder or not anger and rage. And of course, there's no policy discussion because, you know, Trump and the Republicans are now gonna control government, and so it's gonna be very hard to get something done. And I just wonder, like, I think that one of the reasons that our politics are so broken right now is because there is no place to have a conversation that is going to move a lot of these issues forward, even when it's something that should be, I think, to most people, as obvious and clear as ensuring that every single person in this country has access to healthcare they can afford that doesn't lead them to financial ruin.

[Vivek Murthy]

No, look, I. I share your concern. I mean, I think the two challenges are, one, we don't have places where we can have conversation, period. People are often scared to talk about issues that are mildly controversial, and we encounter this all the time. And online is a place where most people go and dialogue has fundamentally been broken online. The second is, like, if you have those conversations, how do you ensure they matter and actually translate to policy change? And look, I am a big believer. I spent a number of years as a organizer as well, and I'm a big believer that when people do when people actually come together in large numbers and call for change, that you can actually make it happen. It's not easy. Sometimes it takes time, but it can happen. But it requires them to come together. And to come together requires dialogue and a plan of action. And one of the reasons I think community is so important here is what community does is it helps us to know each other and understand each other's lives. I may not have an elderly parent, for example, who's struggling with Alzheimer's dementia, but if I'm connected to my community and I have a neighbor who does, I'm going to be more sympathetic to the home care needs that many people with aging parents have. Right. Similarly, before I had kids, one might say, well, why should I really care about kids who don't have food in school or kids who are struggling with violence in their communities? Because you don't have kids, why is it a concern to you? But I had friends who had children, and I understood their lives, so I cared about them. So what community does is it helps us widen our circle of concern and get behind common sense and important policy initiatives that matter, like getting health insurance coverage for folks who are uninsured. Back in 2010, when the ACA was passed, that was important even if you had health insurance today. Right. And, you know, they're the intellectual reasons why that's important. Right. Overall, healthcare costs rise that, you know, impacts the entire country, even if you do have insurance. But then a human level, it should matter if you know people in your community who don't have health insurance. So that's actually one of the reasons, I think, that the rebuilding community is so important. It's a place where we can talk more openly, understand each other more openly, but come to support one another more openly. And when people, if people fundamentally care about health insurance coverage because they know folks who are struggling without it, they are more likely to come out and advocate for that, to push policymakers on that. They're more likely to be able to be brought in to an organizing effort, for example, because they recognize that issue and they care about it. So, yeah, this is one of the many ways in which I see community as really fundamental. But I come back to those sort of three elements that we need in community. Community is a place where we know each other, we help each other, and we're invested in each other. And if we have that, we can actually deal with all kinds of adversity. And we've got big challenges, climate change, challenges in healthcare, so many others, but there are very few of those that we can actually address if we're atomized and if we're fragmented. And that's actually what we've got to deal with today. I think people want community. I think young people in particular have extraordinary insights, I find when I travel about the impact of technology on their own lives. But that doesn't mean that it's easy to solve because we have a collective action problem. Just take social media for an instance. When young people tell me that they're really struggling with their self esteem on social media and the increased FOMO they feel and the comparison constantly to others, the simple answer might be like, well then why don't you reduce your time on it? Not so easy for all the reasons that we know we've talked about, John, the way these platforms are designed, but also if everyone else is on it and you're the only one who's not, you might feel like you're left out too. But when a couple of people come together and say, hey, why don't we do this together? Why don't we actually take a break together, change our practice together, that actually makes it possible for others to do. And so the log off movement that's being built on college campuses around the country where young people are helping each other reduce their utilization and take breaks, the movement among parents right now to actually wait until after middle school to have their child use, you know, social media or get a phone, like these are movements that are, that are overdue, but they're happening because more and more people are starting to step up, recognizing that making these changes on your own is pretty tough.

[Jon Favreau]

I always think about it as the difference between unity and solidarity. And you talk about unity and now in a more cynical time, people think you're calling for everyone to just hold hands and get rid of your differences and, you know, kumbaya. But solidarity is really having empathy for someone else. Standing in their shoes and then engaging in collective action because of your own interests, but also because of the interests of the people that you care about and come to know.

[Vivek Murthy]

That's exactly right. And I love the word you use there, empathy. And you know, actually I think at some deep level, like we are born, most of us with a sense of empathy, John. I think that's actually part of our DNA, it's who we are. But over time, sometimes it gets beaten out of us or we're told if you're empathetic you're going to get taken advantage of, or that's being naive or the world's not like that. So you can't be like that. But the reality is, I think this is actually our fundamental drive. And to really be able to see each other is. That's fundamentally about empathy. It's about being able to recognize what other people are going through, even if we can't go through it ourselves. It's about than standing up to support them, even if their problem isn't ours. That's what empathy is about. And whenever I start to feel a bit cynical, John, about this, I just think about my. My own kids, right? And like the other day when I was. I was playing with my kids, and we throw balls around a lot, you know, and tennis balls, all kinds of balls. And my daughter playfully threw a ball to me, you know, when we were sitting at the dining table. And I had that time I had a frozen shoulder, so my shoulder was really painful, and I just instinctively reached up to catch the ball, which, if you've ever had a frozen shoulder, you know, is like, exactly the wrong thing to do. Yeah, right. And so all of a sudden, I had this lancing pain going through my shoulder. Got down on the ground. I was just eyes squeezed shut. I was holding my shoulder, just waiting for the pain to go away. And it was in that moment that I felt this small hand on my shoulder, and I felt a small head lean against my head. And I opened my eyes, and it was my son. He's 8 years old. He didn't go to empathy school. He didn't go to sensitivity training. But his instinct in that moment was he saw someone in pain. And even though he wasn't in pain, he wanted to respond. And I think that's how so many of our kids are. I think that's our natural instinct in so many ways. And every time we see somebody else step up and demonstrate that kind of empathy or generosity or compassion or kindness, it gives us permission and encouragement to do the same. That's something I want people to know. Because sometimes it can feel like we're maybe a lone voice out there, you know, trying to do good in a world where so much is going against the tide. But actually, that's not the case. There are people who are hungry for a better way forward, who value the kind of empathy that you and I are speaking about, John, and who want to live life that way, who want to know the world operates that way. And every time they see somebody step up and do that, it gives them the permission and encouragement to live out those kind of values, too.

[Jon Favreau]

Last question. What is your hope for your successor? I noticed that she also doesn't like social media. She said that she thinks it should be banned to all teenagers. And so what are your hopes for your successor and someone that's taking this job, you know, party aside. And also, what do you want to do next?

[Vivek Murthy]

Well, I don't know my successor. I know that she's been nominated. I was glad to see that the position was seen as important enough to nominate somebody early. And look, I want to be helpful to her. You know, I want her to be successful for the sake of the country. So I certainly want to be a resource in what way I can. And what I would hope for her most of all is that, number one, she remembers the core roots and values that brought her to medicine in the first place, that brought so many of us to this profession. The desire to help others, to be guided by science and also by the stories of our patients, and to act in other people's interests, even when it's hard and difficult and politically challenging. That is the value that I have found myself trying to constantly remind myself of and that my predecessors in this office have as well. And my hope also is that she will feel encouraged and able to reach out to all of us who have preceded her in this role. We're a brotherhood and a sisterhood, the former sgs. And we help each other, we lean on each other, we come from different. We have been appointed by presidents of different parties. But that doesn't matter because our key priority and our guiding light is what's going to help people live healthier and happier lives. As far as me, you know, I don't know what entirely what comes next. I was sharing with you before this that I. I asked my daughter what I should do, which a little tricky when you're getting career advice from a six year old, but, you know, it's come to that and I. She just had a very simple answer for me and it came right away. She sat on my lap and she said, daddy, I think what you should do next is spend more time playing with me. And I actually thought that was a very wise answer. And so I want to take some time to, to be with my family, to take them on a vacation. You know something, John, that I just want to say explicitly for everyone who's listening, which is that when we serve in these roles, our whole family serve, right? And so the sacrifices are spread among, you know, our partners, our kids, our parents, everyone. So, you know, I owe that to them. But what I do know is that what I do want to focus on next is this deeper question of how we now do the hard work of building community? How do we harness the power of business and government and education and entertainment, including music and sports and art? How do we bring these different sectors together to not only support the policies and programs we need that will bring us together, but to ultimately drive the culture shift that we need to swing us from that triad of success more toward the triad of fulfillment, anchored in relationships and purpose and service. And this is a culture shift because culture is ultimately driven by what people believe and what they do. And when more and more people do that, then the culture shifts. And I don't know, I just think, John, you're a parent. I'm a parent, and I think about so much these days in terms of the world that I want to be a part of creating for my kids. You know, our kids are going to be here hopefully long after we're gone, and we're not going to always be there to protect them or make sure that they have the best experience possible. They're going to rely on the community and the culture around them. And I want my kids and your kids and all of our kids to be able to grow up in a world where people care about each other, where if you make a mistake and you screw up, you don't get judged by your worst moment, where people actually lift you up when you fall down, and where we see the power and importance of connecting with something bigger than ourselves, whether that's to individuals through friendship, whether that's through nature, whether it's through other forces. I want my kids to grow up in a world where they belong and where they can find meaning. And creating that world is what I want to do next. And I think there are a lot of ways to do that. I think we need to drive a different kind of conversation about what matters in life and what we're driving to in our lives, because that determines how we design society. Driving that kind of dialogue through different channels is something I'm thinking about, But I also want us to be able to create the experience of community in our existing institutions. So how can our workplaces and our schools and our universities become engines for the experience of community? I fundamentally think that if you can experience something, if you can see it, then you can believe in it. But many people might say, hey, look, this community thing sounds amazing, but I don't know, is it really possible? But once you have the experience of actually showing up somewhere where people really care about you, and. And they. And they. And people are helping each other and they feel like they're part of a cause bigger than themselves. And you're like, wow, that's kind of neat. Maybe it can happen. I was just literally yesterday on the phone with an incredible woman, Sarah Heminger, who started an organization called Thread in Baltimore. Thread takes the ninth grade students who are at the bottom quartile, you know, of the class really struggling, average GPA of 0.78, and surrounds them with three to four adult volunteers in the community who kind of become surrogate family.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Vivek Murthy]

They do anything that's needed. Their motto is we show all the way up. And that means that if what's needed is making a lunch that day, dropping a kid off at school, picking them up from school, tutoring them after school, connecting them to community resources, whatever it is we just do together and we show up. And what's really extraordinary about this program is that Sarah was telling me that the graduation rate they realized in the kids who are part of thread is 10x10 fold greater than the kids who are not in in Thread, but in the similar quartile. And but the amazing thing about this is it's helping people believe again that community is possible. These are people who care deeply about each other. These are people who are helping each other day to day. And the members of Thread, these parents have found such a deep sense of purpose in showing up for someone else. 40% of the kids in this quartile, this lowest quartile in ninth grade in Baltimore, are now part of Thread. So I look at experiences like that and I think to myself, how many of those parents maybe were cynical before? How many of those students and their parents were cynical about whether community really existed or anybody believed in it. And now they believe because they've seen it, they've experienced it. So I want to see what I can do to drive a different conversation, to create the experience of community for people. This is a movement we need to build in America and a movement we need to build all over the world. And if we can do that, then I have great faith, John, that whatever challenges may come, whether it's another pandemic, whether it's the ongoing threat of climate change, whether it's economic inequality, whatever it may be, that we can tackle these, because we'll be together, we'll have each other's backs, and that's really what matters the most.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, thank you. Thank you for your service in government and two tours in the federal government. And thank you also just for focusing on what I think is one of the most important challenges and difficult challenges to solve, that we face right now. So thanks for bringing our attention to it and raising awareness and enjoy some wealth, deserve time off.

[Vivek Murthy]

Thank you so much, Sean. I really appreciate it. And thank you for bringing these kind of conversations to light. This is. This is what we need to be talking about. This is what really matters at the end of the day. If at the end of our lives, we can look back and feel like our life really mattered because we were part of something, we were part of a community. That's what's going to mean a lot to me in this work. Like anybody else, John, I have moments where I wonder, am I getting enough recognition for it? Am I doing, Am I achieving enough? Am I making enough money? Like, I have those moments, too. I feel that pull of that triad of success, you know, like, on me as well. But in those moments, John, I just try to remember these conversations that I had with my patients over the years at the end of their lives. See, the very end of people's lives is often when they are reflecting on what really mattered. And I've had the privilege of sitting down in those final days by their bedside and just listening to them talking. And what's interesting to me, John, is they never talked about how much money was in their bank account, how big their corner office was. They didn't talk about the awards they got or the fancy school they got into. What they talked about were the people in their life, the people they loved, the people they helped, the people whose lives they ultimately touched. And we don't have to wait till the end of our life to realize that that's what really matters. And so if we can build this kind of community for ourselves, for the people we love, for our kids, then we will be giving them one of the most powerful gifts that we can. We will be securing the future for them in one of the most potent ways that we can. And that's why to me, this mission of building community and revitalizing it is so essential.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, thank you.

[Vivek Murthy]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Baratunde Thurston]

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[Vivek Murthy]

Treat.

[Jon Favreau]

And we're back. So we reached out in the Friend of the Pod discord and on Instagram to ask you of if you all have any questions for the show. Not the most offline method, but you know, didn't have my parry. My carrier pigeons were all busy. We got a lot of great, very offline questions and some ones that I'm not sure how to answer. Yeah, sorry Matty, Max couldn't tell us his favorite member of One Direction. I'm a hairy guy.

[Max Fisher]

I don't know what that is or who that is, but congratulations to him and them. Oh, hairstyles. Sure. He was in Dunkirk. No Green Knight. It doesn't matter.

[Jon Favreau]

No, you were right. You were right. Okay, let's get into this. We're going to do a couple quick ones before we get to Jeremiah.

[Max Fisher]

And can I just say, we will not be answering any of the angry questions I got this week from ophthalmologists. Yeah, I said what I said last week and I was right.

[Jon Favreau]

That's going to be a special bonus episode for the top tier subscribers.

[Max Fisher]

That's right, for subscribers only. Max versus the Optimal Roberta asks this.

[Jon Favreau]

Election cycle produced the worst left leaning infighting since the 2016 Democratic primaries produced. It ain't over. We also saw and continue to see more conspiracy theories. I admit I've been lured somewhat by the blue and on sirens call. I appreciate that, Roberta. Specifically around the ear, snipping, sniping. I had to read that a couple times to understand what Roberta was talking about. Now and then I get Roberta crafted.

[Max Fisher]

A hell of a question.

[Jon Favreau]

Shout out to Roberta, you're great writer. All right, so her question is, what do you think is going on? What do you think the source of this is? Are we just post Covid crazy people now?

[Max Fisher]

I have to tell you, I think 2020 was so much worse. The infighting during the Democratic primary was so toxic and so vicious.

[Jon Favreau]

I just, like, honestly, from. From 2016 through the 2020 election, it.

[Max Fisher]

Was four years of it. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And now it's back.

[Max Fisher]

It is bad.

[Jon Favreau]

We picked up where we left off.

[Max Fisher]

I know, I know. I'm not sure it ever really went away. I mean, look, I think this is just. It's all of the elections. Like, when it happens three elections in a row, it's not about the particulars of the election. It's about social media. And I think social media just encourages you to see the world in terms of this, like, ultra minute, narrow factionalism. And anyone who is 1 1,000th of a degree to your left or to your right is a monster who has to be expelled from the party.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Max Fisher]

It's just not conducive to talking about an election with a lot of people who might have very slight disagreements with you.

[Jon Favreau]

And yet, where else are we going to talk about it?

[Max Fisher]

No, I know.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I mean, I have to say, I'm not surprised at all. Like, I said to many people and thought to myself before the election, I'm like, if we lose this one, the infighting is going to make. It's going to make 2016 look like nothing.

[Max Fisher]

What made you think that?

[Jon Favreau]

Because, you know, you like Donald Trump once.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Shame on him. You like to twitch.

[Max Fisher]

Right, Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And, you know, it's like, we've already been through four years. He did, you know, inside insurrection. I just. It's. I knew it was gonna be bad. Yeah. And in some ways, it's understandable. Like, we lost to Donald Trump. People are angry.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Afraid, exhausted. Yeah. And those don't make for happy people when they're debating. We had a very broad, fractious coalition.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yep.

[Jon Favreau]

That was barely held together by the common goal of beating Donald Trump. And so it's natural that after that doesn't work, that we did that after we didn't succeed, that people are gonna start. Start debating. And I think some of it is necessary, and hopefully it's productive.

[Max Fisher]

It can be a healthy process.

[Jon Favreau]

One thing I'm trying to do, and I, you know, would urge everyone else to do is just, like, interrogate my own priors.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, it's hard. It was like, it's really hard. Okay. Things that it's. I think it's easier to be like, okay, the thing I've always believed and no one listened to. Now I'm. It's just the election results proved me right.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And I think we all do that. Yeah, I've done that. And what I'm trying to do now is really like, dig in and be like, is that right? Is there another view? Should I think about the other? Like, so that's good.

[Max Fisher]

That's healthy.

[Jon Favreau]

One way to do.

[Max Fisher]

And it's a good thing to do off social media because you will always find something on Twitter or TikTok or wherever that confirms your priors and that tells you that you were right and righteous and anyone who disagrees with you shouldn't be listened to. It's something, say to Roberta about feeling the. The pull of getting angry online, which I have certainly felt since the election. There's a lot of people I'm angry at because I don't like their posts, their tweets, whatever, is just to remember that it feels good when you do it, because social media is engineered to incentivize that behavior and to make it feel validating. But it is not actually good for you, much less good for politics. So don't chase that cheap, empty high. Me, I. I didn't, I didn't name anybody. I said myself talking to Roberta. I don't know if anyone else is on Twitter.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe I will say, though, there's no cheap, empty high for me. It's all cheap, empty lows. And I don't even post expecting that it's gonna make me feel good anymore. I don't post expecting that I'm gonna get anyone replying saying, I agree with you. No, I'm thinking like, I. And I finally wrote that piece. But it's like, I go on there being like, I wanna say what I think. And maybe it'll land with some people who aren't replying and the people who are replying it probably won't. Maybe someone will read it and it'll spark something and it'll, you know, who knows on the conspiracies, because she asked about that too. Like, I do think, like, we always need to explain. We feel, we look for explanations for the inexplicable, right? And, you know, whenever we get bad news, our first reaction is like, this can't be happening.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right?

[Jon Favreau]

And I think that can lead to, especially in a very online environment, a search for conspiracies. Right? And I Think, you know, that the.

[Vivek Murthy]

The.

[Jon Favreau]

The ear snipping, sniping. Yeah, we would fall into that. Because I think a lot of Democrats, when that happened, after you get over the sheer horror of the attempted violence or the violence, you think to yourself, oh, God, this is the end. A lot of Democrats thought this is the end of the election.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

It's over. And you're like, well, it's got to be something that it's got to be staged. Right? Because we just want to. We want an explanation.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right, Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Goison, comma, enemy from within, asked Austin Emmerd. They don't know either.

[Max Fisher]

I don't know this one.

[Vivek Murthy]

Is this.

[Jon Favreau]

The question is, is the Internet real life now?

[Max Fisher]

Oh, I just need to see this one. No, the Internet is not. The Internet was, I think, a little bit more real life in this past election, and that it. I think it did play a real role in Biden dropping out. I don't know that it would have happened without Twitter because we just needed a place for all these progressive Democratic elites to coalesce around this decision that he had to drop out. But I think that ended pretty quickly. And Twitter continues to not be real life, and I think becomes less real life every day because people are falling down these rabbit holes of identity confirmation, bias confirmation that just pulls them further and further from reality. And I see it in my friends.

[Jon Favreau]

I have come to develop a slightly nuanced view on this. Now, that's different before. The people who participate in Internet discourse, whether it's Twitter or any other platform, are not representative of the broader population. That. That remains true. We know that for a fact. That's. That's all. The data shows that. But Internet discourse itself doesn't just have a impact on real life. It has an outsized impact on real life because it includes a disproportionate number of influential people.

[Max Fisher]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Figures from politics, media, business, literal influencers.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[Jon Favreau]

And so I do think there's a dynamic there that I. I would love to keep exploring that we haven't quite wrestled with, which is like, we're all swimming in this morass of social media garbage. And yet I think part of what we saw in this last election is it did have an impact on how actual people who might not participate in the discourse.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Like voted or at least thought about politics because they got just a, you know, like an algorithmic mix of. Of opinions and takes that started to shape their perception a little bit.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, I think that's true, and I think it influences mainstream media coverage. Too. For sure.

[Jon Favreau]

For sure.

[Max Fisher]

Which is weirdly not something that matters as much for elections now because people who consume mainstream media are like 99% Democratic voters. But it does still matter for, you know, how our society operates.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Because my example on this is like, say you're someone who doesn't pay close attention to the news or doesn't consume the news much at.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

But you know, you're on, Maybe you're on TikTok and you're not even on TikTok a lot, but the two TikToks you see before the election, you know, and maybe they don't make your, I don't say they make your decision for you, but you know, they have an effect.

[Max Fisher]

And TikTok does represent a huge, huge number of Americans. Yes, it's a, it's a really significant pool for now. Yeah. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

We'll see.

[Max Fisher]

Give it a couple weeks.

[Jon Favreau]

Mariner asked. Hey, Mariner, I was talking to Mariner in the Discord this week. How do you feel about having created a social media space for a show that was about the dangers of social media that is increasingly just a space to talk about the discourse on other social media? So great question.

[Max Fisher]

Fair hit. I'm going to be honest.

[Jon Favreau]

I first, I would say I disagree slightly that we're increasingly just a space to talk about discourse on other social media. Just, you know, just since the election we've talked about Tick Tock, as I just mentioned, the latest legal and political developments, not just the discourse on Tick Tock. We just did an entire episode about talking to strangers face to face about politics with Dave Isay. We talked about the new FCC chair, Joe Rogan, Trump's approach to tech and the Internet, how to make democracy work in the information environment. But yes, we absolutely spend a lot of time on social media discourse. I think it's fair to say we probably spend more time as the show has evolved. I think we do it for two reasons. One, we do it when there is important political or cultural dimensions to the discourse or frankly, because it's fun and we could use a laugh. And that is always going to be part of the show because I think we need to laugh once in a while. And if there's something funny on social media, then let's say it's. Yeah. In general, though, I think about this almost like people who critique capitalism. Right. Which is like we can talk about the dangers of capitalism and how to make it work better. We're not getting rid of it and we're all part of it.

[Vivek Murthy]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

We've got to participate in the system. And so I think you can talk. And, like, I think the same is true of social media. Like, I mean, at least for me, some people are never going to have to be on social media if they don't want. But, like, our job is politics and news and media, and so we're unfortunately going to have to be on social media. So part of the show is what's happening there, and part of it is how to deal with it in a healthier way, which is not just unplugging, which we said even during the offline challenge, but, like, figuring out how to deal with it in a healthier way. I'm not saying that we've. I certainly haven't figured that out, but just that's. That's the.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, it is. It's very funny to get this question on the episode where it is sandwiched between an interview with the Surgeon General and the bad tweets bracket.

[Jon Favreau]

And if you don't think people are going to point that out, it is.

[Max Fisher]

It's very much.

[Jon Favreau]

We're going to hear about that.

[Max Fisher]

The angel on our shoulder, Vivek Murthy, and the devil on our shoulder, Jeremiah Johnson with the bad tweets. It's like, look, it's both sides of the offline world. That's what I was.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, it's fun.

[Max Fisher]

I. I would. I got this question constantly when I was doing my book tours. It's like, how can you write a book about how social media is bad and yet be on social media yourself? And it's like, it's a fair question. And I would always give the same answer, which is that social media shapes our world whether I specifically am on it or not. So I do need to use it to just like. Like, understand the effect it is having now. At the same time, I think there probably is a little bit of, like, I really backslid on my screen time during the election. Spent a lot more time looking at my phone. So what do you know? I spent more time being angry about tweets than Skeets that I saw on my phone. So I brought it up more on the show. But I do think that we are in a moment where we are thinking about the impact of social media on our politics, on the party, on kind of how we're processing what's happening.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And for me, I'm thinking I'm not like, spending a lot of. I'm actually not spending a lot of time scrolling through social media. Hard to believe.

[Max Fisher]

Good for you.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm thinking A lot about the election, what comes next. And I have a. Like, I'm getting a lot of thoughts about. I'm reading a lot, and I need to put them somewhere.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And like, I know I do a bunch of podcasts. I can do them there. But sometimes it. You know, as I learned when I wrote up the piece, I'm like, it. Sometimes it just helps to write stuff down or share stuff, and I wish I could do it in a place that wasn't so toxic, but there's no place that exists.

[Max Fisher]

You know what? If only there was.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't tell me about Blue Sky.

[Max Fisher]

If only there was a micro blogging service somewhere that didn't have Twitter's algorithm or ownership structure, but I just don't know what that would be. I just don't know. If only some enterprising someone with a background in tech, maybe, who's worked at Twitter, but there's not. If you know of one, let us know, please. Write into John, let him know, because he's really looking for that kind of a place.

[Jon Favreau]

I like that. Miri Nuzzo asked, if we all went back to flip phones, what would you miss most?

[Max Fisher]

Oh, my God. I loved this question because it's the. We've gotten versioned this before, but it's. If you didn't have your phone, the idea of everybody giving up their phone and going to the flip phone all at once. I started jotting down some notes and what that would look like, and it looked like the lyrics from Imagine by John Lennon. No hell below us, above us, only sky. No one to kill or die for.

[Jon Favreau]

What color is Scott?

[Max Fisher]

What color is this? It's blue, John. I mean, it's just. It's a beautiful thing to imagine. The world would be so different. We can't even, like, get into. I mean, just that we'd be less polarized, angry, conspiratorial. But I would also be personally lost all the time if we didn't have smartphones.

[Jon Favreau]

Physically lost.

[Max Fisher]

Physically. I have a terrible sense of direction.

[Jon Favreau]

You and Emily. Oh, really?

[Max Fisher]

Does she have to use maps to go, like, even to the same places?

[Vivek Murthy]

She.

[Jon Favreau]

No, it's more like we walk out of the hotel room, we go down the hall, we go, we come back.

[Max Fisher]

Oh, those hotels are mazes. All the hallways look the same. No, she's right. She's right on this one, but also.

[Jon Favreau]

Directions, but she's confident in the direction. Right. I know we're supposed to take this.

[Max Fisher]

Left, and then you end up. You're just circling the hotel for the connector. Between my phone and the thing in my car broke, so I don't have maps on it right now. It is three turns from my home to my office, and I had to pull over to look it up on my phone. I don't know how to get anywhere. I can't do it.

[Jon Favreau]

That was like, my first two years in LA.

[Max Fisher]

I will say, LA is confusing also. I'm stupid.

[Jon Favreau]

I would miss the texting.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, no, like, I know you.

[Jon Favreau]

I know you can do on the flip phone, the whatever. But when we tried to do that for a little bit, the texting is impossible. I didn't use it at all.

[Max Fisher]

When we went.

[Jon Favreau]

Texting is impossible.

[Max Fisher]

When we went to flip phones, the one thing that I was like, my life is worse off for not having this is group texting and FaceTime.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be mine. All right, last question. Cacti and cats asked. Will there be another offline challenge this year? And, John, will 2025 finally be the year? You seriously consider limiting your interactions on Twitter? No, no. I said this on terminally online, if you heard it. But my resolution for 2025, I'm getting in more Twitter fights.

[Max Fisher]

Are you really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And more blue sky fights, too.

[Max Fisher]

Who are we fighting? Fighting with? Who's target number one?

[Jon Favreau]

I don't really know.

[Max Fisher]

Do you have an enemy's list, really fights?

[Jon Favreau]

But I am spirited exchanges and I don't know. I don't even know if there'll be exchanges. But I'm posted. I am posted.

[Max Fisher]

You're getting out there. I mean, as long as you're getting the screen time down, I sanction it.

[Jon Favreau]

I have thoughts and I'm going to share them.

[Vivek Murthy]

I do.

[Jon Favreau]

And if you don't like them, you can unfollow me. That is totally fine. You can write back all kinds of nasty things. That's okay, too.

[Max Fisher]

Fetch these. I'm just going to tweet less personally. That's my journey. I'm gonna try to get off my phone. But, you know, we're getting off my high horse.

[Jon Favreau]

We're aging. I'm on my very low horse.

[Max Fisher]

We're all coping in our own ways.

[Jon Favreau]

I am not holier than thou, but.

[Max Fisher]

The answer to catnip.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah? Yeah, why don't you? Yeah, why don't you?

[Max Fisher]

Is the yes. We are going to be doing another offline challenge. It's gonna be focused on. I don't know how much we want to give away, but we're gonna change the focus a little bit.

[Jon Favreau]

Let's do it. Oka you said the word.

[Max Fisher]

It's gonna be about focus.

[Jon Favreau]

It's gonna be about focus.

[Max Fisher]

It's gonna be about not just getting, putting down your phone. It's gonna be how do you main, how do you focus what you're, what you want to focus on what's going on in your life. And I'm excited for it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Emma came up with the idea and it's a brilliant idea and we're all very excited and we're working it out now. And it's, it's nice because it's an offline challenge. It's not exactly like what we did before, but it's going to be, I think focus and attention are incredibly important.

[Max Fisher]

And we're going to have lots of ways for people to follow along, things that you can do at home to work on your focus and attention as well.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. All right. When we come back, Jeremiah Johnson, author of the phenomenal substack Infinite scroll, joins us to talk about his worst tweets of 2024. Bracket it. But before that, few quick housekeeping notes. First cricket limited series. We got a bunch that we've had over the last year or so and they are fantastic to listen to. You can unravel the mystery of a prominent judge's death in Killing Justice. You can follow the shocking transformation of a Chinese civil rights activist into a maga Trump supporter in Dissident at the Doorstep. Or you can immerse yourself in the hidden history of America's largest police force with Empire City, the untold origin story of the NYPD names one of the top podcasts of 2024 by Time magazine, Vulture and the New York Times and by me and by Max. Max Fisher, too. Just belongs right in that list. Binge these series and [e-mail] limiteds or find them wherever you get your podcast. Also, Crooked's Friends of the Pod subscription is offering an exciting 25 off new annual subscriptions through the end of the year. If you're feeling anxious about 2025 in the avalanche of headlines, newsletter alerts, and Trump adjacent puppy killers it will bring, you're not alone. Crooked is here to make sense of what matters, what it all means and what we can do about it. Rather than constantly freaking out about all the what ifs, rest assured, we will still freak out sometimes and your subscription will support all of that work. You'll also get ad free episodes of Pod Save America subscription exclusive shows and access to our lively Discord community. I will tell you one one New Year's resolution, as I also said that I'm going to to dive into more Twitter and blue sky exchanges, but I'm also, I'm going to try to spend more time on the discord talking to our wonderful subscribers. We've had some great conversations in the last couple weeks and you know, you can yell at me there, you can disagree politely, which most people are doing. And we're had some, we had some great productive discussions. It's, it's really fun. So check it out. Subscribe [e-mail] friends or through the Pod Save America feed on Apple podcasts.

[Baratunde Thurston]

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[Vivek Murthy]

Just grab Angel Soft. It's simple, soft and strong. And for any budget, Angel Soft, soft and strong.

[Jon Favreau]

Simple.

[Baratunde Thurston]

From the makers of Rice a Roni comes Macaroni, a creamy, delicious boxed Mac and cheese that's not just good, it's cheesy. Good macaroni will please even the pickiest eaters with two magnificent flavors that will melt your creamy cheddar and creamy white cheddar. If you love cheese, you'll love Macaroni by the makers of Rice a Roni. If you don't love cheese, well, that's just unbelievable. Try macaroni. It's cheesy. Good Mac a Roni, the San Francisco Treat.

[Jon Favreau]

Jeremiah Johnson, welcome back to Offline.

[E]

Really glad to be here, man. How are you guys doing?

[Jon Favreau]

We're pretty good, I gotta say. You have this every year. You collect the 64 worst tweets of the year. You put them into a bracket, and then you have people vote on them on Twitter. And this was really hard. There's some real good ones. This is an intense competition this year.

[Max Fisher]

You managed to get me assigned as a work responsibility at my job reading bad tweets, and I really don't know whether to be grateful or angry about that.

[E]

Look, I mean, I've looked through like hundreds of these to get ready for this, and at this point, my brain is fully melted. It's like sloshing around the bottom of my skull. So, you know, whatever comes next, I've just accepted.

[Jon Favreau]

How long ago did you start this? I feel like I remember it from a couple years ago. At least that's when I hopped on the bandwagon. Here. And my question is, why are you okay?

[E]

I started it in 2022, and I'll let you in on just a little secret. People have accused me of spending too much time on the Internet. That's a thing that happens.

[Max Fisher]

Sounds familiar.

[E]

Yeah, it's just this thing. I think it actually, the genesis was like, a Rebecca Jennings tweet that went viral. She's a writer for Vox on online culture, and in 2022, she tweeted something about, like, what's the most unhinged discourse you've seen this year? And that was the year of, like. Like, the. The Coffee Bean, the Coffee Wife, and the. The Chili Neighbor and. And Bean dad and, like, all these, like, famous Twitter things. People who don't know what we're talking about. I. I sound like an insane person, but basically, it just kind of. I was thinking, well, why not just gamify it? Everybody likes everything to be gamified in the modern culture, in. In the modern world, and why not just have some fun with it?

[Max Fisher]

Should team up with Fortnite Night and.

[Jon Favreau]

PE and people who do know what he's talking about. This is the show for you.

[Max Fisher]

This is. Yes, you're here for a reason.

[Jon Favreau]

This is the segment of the show for you.

[Max Fisher]

You're home.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, so, jokes aside, we thought it'd be fun for each of us, you, me, and Max, to select our two favorites, or, I guess, least favorite, our favorite worst tweets from the bracket and make the case for why we each think our tweet should be the worst tweet of the year. Now, you've already. We're recording this on Wednesday, December 18th, I believe. There's already one round that's already happened. We have, what, 32 left? Are we. We at the round of 32 yet?

[E]

Yes, we are currently voting the top 32. By tomorrow, it will be to the top 16. We will eventually get to one winner. One. One single champion of just putrid Twitter awfulness.

[Max Fisher]

Now, have you partnered with any specific casino in Vegas for odds taking on this, or is it just kind of all black market at this point?

[E]

Point? I have actually had people offer to sponsor the bracket, and mostly it has been, like, weird crypto scam. So I have declined. But, like, I'm not, in theory, opposed to, like, if somebody wants to offer me a bag, I'm not gonna, you know, decline. But. But crypto is maybe a. A bridge too far.

[Jon Favreau]

Will there be a one shining moment, like, video of the. The worst tweets at the. At the very end? Austin's gonna do that. Great. Thank you, Austin. All right, Max. What? Max? First, bad tweet.

[Max Fisher]

So this is a phrase that has been just bouncing around my head ever since I was cursed enough to see it on my screen. I text it to friends occasionally just so that they know that it's going on in my head. My online dom lives in Israel because she's so stressed about living next to a war zone. I haven't properly gotten off since October 7th. Cease fire now. It's a beautiful sentiment, I feel.

[Jon Favreau]

Now I will say we had a whole segment on terminally online where Kat abu. She.

[Max Fisher]

That was fun.

[Jon Favreau]

That was her item for that week. And, boy, that was special.

[Max Fisher]

The real heads know this one is for the connoisseurs.

[Jon Favreau]

I feel now that one's already been eliminated, I guess, right? Because I did not see that today.

[Max Fisher]

That's not that one.

[E]

So it's funny that this one was included. One from Blue sky snuck in without me realizing it. That one is actually from Blue Sky.

[Jon Favreau]

Damn, a ski.

[E]

It is a beautiful tweet, though, because it has this like. Like, there's a certain genre of tweet where it's like, there's this big, really important societal thing happening. Some geopolitical event. Some societal event. But how can I make this about me? You know, what's really important about the October 7 attacks is whether or not I've been orgasming recently.

[Max Fisher]

Any. Anytime there is major news somewhere. Now I'm texting someone that my online dom lives there. So they're in Damascus at the moment. Actually.

[Jon Favreau]

Jeremiah, you can go next. What's your pick?

[E]

All right, so just as setup, one of the things that I think takes a generically bad tweet into really, really amazingly bad territory is that really snotty tone of voice that people use where people are like, hey, John, saw you tweeted this. Hope you can do better. You know, hope that helps. That kind of, like, millennial snot kind of tweeting style where, like, I'm a pretty chill guy, but anytime somebody says, hope that helps, at the end of a tweet, I start thinking about the death penalty. So there's one of these where this is after the Joe Biden debate kind of disaster. Miriam tweets, steve Harvey messed up announcing Miss Universe in 2015, and we didn't call for him to step down from hosting Family Feud, saying, and then somebody asks, did Steve Harvey have access to the nuclear codes? And their response is, not my job to educate you.

[Max Fisher]

The genre of, like, pro Biden, like, anti biden dropout tweets is really some incredible stuff. It was a soft year, honestly, up until that point. And then Twitter really brought it with that moment.

[E]

I feel the implication being that, like, I'm not going to educate you and Steve Harvey might have had access to the nuclear code episodes.

[Jon Favreau]

Not my job to educate you is going to be right up there with one of my, The Twitter phrases. It was just like, okay, maybe it's not your job to educate me, but it is your job to criticize me.

[Max Fisher]

That's right. You have, you have used, you have.

[Jon Favreau]

Found, found it within yourself to offer the emotional labor to criticize on Twitter, but you will not educate on Twitter.

[Max Fisher]

Well, that is all of our jobs is to send shitty tweets to each other, is my understanding.

[Jon Favreau]

So I have, I have to be honest, guys, there's like eight that I have been trying.

[Max Fisher]

No, you were really pulling your hair out and.

[Jon Favreau]

But I'm going to keep it in the Biden dropout category just because this one I remember at the time and it's one of my favorites. So this is, this is at. Rebecca, writer. And this is. I guess this is a, like a play here. This is a one act play. Pundits, pundits. Joe Biden needs to drop out Biden. No pundits. But we really want Joe Biden to drop out Biden. No. 8 House Dems. Joe, the pundits say you need to drop out. They really want that. Biden. No George Clooney. Come on, Joe, just relax. You'll like dropping out Biden. No voters. No means no motherfuckers. And then this is how she sums up the whole thing. Politics and rape culture are too similar for comfort. Oh, God. He's calling for Joe Biden to drop out.

[Max Fisher]

Sexual, like rape culture. Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. It's a tweet and it went viral. So I guess that that's true also.

[Jon Favreau]

Guess what? That's not what the voters said.

[E]

I mean, those are words you can put in that order, right? You, Those are English words that I recognize, but you put them in that particular order and it's like there's. There's a second genre of tweet that is just like, I'm going to take some legitimate idea and then just extend it so far beyond the goalposts of where it needs to be that, you know, you see that all the time.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, whenever I see a tweet like this, I always picture someone like, in line in CVS and the tweet coming to them. And then breaking out of line to run home and type it up on their screen. Gotta tell the world. Okay, second one from me. This is just an important capital I, important tweet. This is from Navy Seal Robert J. O'Neill.

[Jon Favreau]

Now, I can cross this off my list.

[Max Fisher]

It's an important one. It has to be in the canon to say to some zoomers who voted for Kamala, you're not men. You're boys. If there was no social media, you would be my concubines. This is a crazy thing to say to somebody.

[Jon Favreau]

SEAL Team Six.

[Vivek Murthy]

I.

[Max Fisher]

This is. Listen, from what we've heard about the culture on Seal Team 6, this is actually not. Not. Not shocking news.

[E]

This is the guy who supposedly shot Osama bin Laden. Like, this is the guy who, in all probability, I don't think we have confirmation, but, like, this guy probably killed Osama bin Laden, and now he is, like, shitposting on Twitter, like, that's his new job.

[Vivek Murthy]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

You win some, you lose some.

[Max Fisher]

Chris Pratt is out here telling the zoomer boys that he is going to. No. Someone was like, what? And he said, no, Jake, I'm telling you what the beta is like. It will be used for sex and food. Mostly food.

[Jon Favreau]

That was. I like that. It's like, in case you didn't understand what I meant when I said concubine, I meant concubine. I'm going to use you boys for sex and food. Just very specific from Mr. Seal Team 6.

[Max Fisher]

He's got a world view. He's sticking to his guns. Consistent.

[Jon Favreau]

Incredible. Incredible. All right, Jeremiah, what do you think?

[E]

Cannibalism on top there? Just the adding of cannibalism on top of the concubines. And now I'm actually. I'm scrambling for a second because that was one of mine, Max.

[Max Fisher]

I knew I abused my position in the. In the lineup.

[Jon Favreau]

It's true.

[E]

Okay, so I've got another one that I think is just really. It's very special. It's the kind of thing you only see on Twitter. I feel like. So the setup here is that Lawrence says something about a white girl criticizing a brown nation exercising their sovereignty. It just rubs me the wrong way. And you're like, oh, that sounds concerning, right? A white person criticizing a brown nation. And then the reply is, lawrence, it's the fucking Taliban.

[Jon Favreau]

Damn it. That was my other one.

[Max Fisher]

This was a great one, because when the Afghan government fell, the Taliban took over. Over. There was, like, an hour when you could tell Twitter was really toying with, like, are we going to Be pro Taliban now do we, like, really, like, maybe we're going to be pro Taliban? Yeah, let's try it out. And then people kind of backed off.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. Some of these I really liked, but I was like, I cannot even say this on the podcast because it has the. It just feels so.

[Max Fisher]

Are you looking at the Rod Dreher one?

[Jon Favreau]

Look, there's a lot. Okay, what do I want to do is. Is it. Do I want to do polyphobic or do I want to do abolish bedtime?

[Max Fisher]

It's not. It's not a synopsis of Twitter in 2024 unless there's a mention of poly.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm going. I'm going both. Because they're both quick. Okay, this one, this one is from Jess. We need to talk about how giving people a plus one for events is low key. Polyphobic.

[Max Fisher]

Yeah, low key is another phrase that. It had its use. It did, but it's been used in so many lives. Like rage bait, viral tweets. Now you just can't say. You can't say it anymore without sending like a tweet.

[Jon Favreau]

And then this one, this is. This is. I like this a lot because this is another kind of category that we haven't hit yet. The anarchist turtle. It's great, great. Follow. I don't understand people who recognize that social constructs exist, but think time abolition is silly. And then Moonlit misfit quote tweeted it. I unironically support bedtime abolition, but I think full time abolition is an unrealistic prospect. Do you not remember someone draw a line?

[Max Fisher]

There was a time abolition discourse in, I think it was like 2020 or 2021. Do you know this? It came out of New York Times magazine story where there was references to mechanical clock time.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh my God.

[Max Fisher]

As being something that was a racist construct.

[Jon Favreau]

Fixed bedtimes are a symptom of the control wage labor and formal schooling have over our lives. Lives. But time measuring is useful for organizing voluntary leisure activities too. So we got your. You got your time abolition absolutists, and then you've sort of got your moderates who just want to do bedtime.

[Max Fisher]

I mean, hasn't Lovett been talking about this all week?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it goes all the way. He's like a mushy centrist now. He's going all the way to daylight savings.

[Max Fisher]

He's got to hear both sides.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[E]

The funny thing about that one is that in kind of trying to choose the 64 that got into the bracket, there was more than one abolish style tweet and I had to kind of do like a little runoff among a few friends of like, which one gets included because I can't have half the bracket be just abolishing things, right? And it was stuff like abolish bedtime, abolish kitchens, abolish school. And at some point you start to realize, wait, this is just like an 8 year old's list of demands, like abolish school, abolish bedtime. I don't want to do the dishes, Mom.

[Jon Favreau]

So, like it's, you know, well, that's, that's all the time we got. I can't wait to figure out who wins this thing. I just voted for, for this round.

[Max Fisher]

I, I, some of them are really.

[Jon Favreau]

Tough because you had some real, real good ones going up against each other in this round. Like just two that I read. I think that, I think Taliban, it's the Taliban is going up against the, the Biden one, which is tough. I, I abolish bedtime. Sorry.

[Max Fisher]

What I will say is that we've gotten some listener feedback that we need to be more open to Blue Sky. So I would say open up the bracket to Skeets. Open it up to Blue Sky.

[E]

I mean, next year, man. Bad Skeets.

[Max Fisher]

Bad Skeets.

[Jon Favreau]

You do a whole separate bracket. It's like the nit.

[Max Fisher]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, Jeremiah. Well, I'm excited to see, to see who wins. Everyone should check out Jeremiah's fantastic substack Infinite Scroll. You can follow him on Twitter if you want to read more. Bad tweets and good tweets from Jeremiah, but bad tweets otherwise. That's our show for today. Jeremiah, thanks a ton for stopping by. Thank you to all the listeners who submitted questions and of course, thanks a ton to Surgeon General Vivek Murthy. I'm sure he's really happy to be in this episode. We will be back in your feed after the holidays. Offline is a crooked Media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Ilick Frank Jordan Kanter is our sound editor. Charlotte Landis is our engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, Reed Churlin and Adrian Hill for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Delon Villanueva, who film and share our episodes as videos. Wired is constantly reporting on Silicon Valley's biggest players, from going inside their companies to testing their biggest products. Now it's time to discuss the changing faces of tech and how the decisions of a few powerful people impact us all. Every Thursday, WIRED's podcast Uncanny Valley provides an insider look at the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. From Mark Zuckerberg's style glowing to the shared obsession amongst tech Bros to live forever, the hosts explain why these things matter and how they affect you. Listen to new episodes of Wired's Uncanny Valley wherever you get your podcasts.

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