Was Luigi Mangione Too Online?

Summary

Offline with Jon Favreau: Episode Summary – "Was Luigi Mangione Too Online?"

Release Date: December 15, 2024
Host/Author: Crooked Media
Guest: Taylor Lorenz

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I. Introduction

In this episode of Offline with Jon Favreau, host Jon Favreau engages in a profound discussion with journalist Taylor Lorenz about the intricate interplay between online behavior, political violence, and the healthcare system in the United States. The conversation delves into recent events, including the potential nationwide ban of TikTok and the shocking assassination of a health insurance CEO, analyzing how these incidents reflect broader societal and technological trends.

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II. The TikTok Ban

[01:02 – 06:45]

Favreau and Lorenz begin by exploring the legal challenges surrounding TikTok in the U.S. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals recently upheld a law banning the Chinese-owned app from app stores unless a new American owner is found. This decision sets the stage for a potential nationwide ban starting January 19, 2025.

Key Points:

• Legal Grounds: TikTok's attempt to overturn the ban on First Amendment and national security grounds was unanimously rejected by a three-judge panel.

  “TikTok challenged the law on First Amendment grounds, arguing that a potential ban would deny Americans access to TikTok as a venue for public expression.”
  — Lorenz [02:38]

• Implications for Creators: The ban poses significant challenges for TikTok influencers and creators who rely on the platform for income. Lorenz highlights the difficulty for creators to migrate to other platforms due to varying algorithms and competition.

• Political Dynamics: The episode discusses the likelihood of the ban being upheld, considering the incoming political landscape and potential actions by the Supreme Court or the Trump administration. Lorenz notes,

  “I think it's very unlikely they would roll it back because they're very China hockey, especially in the incoming Congress.”
  — Lorenz [05:12]

• Influence of Antitrust Concerns: Antitrust issues make it improbable for major companies like Microsoft or Elon Musk’s endeavors to acquire TikTok, further solidifying the ban's prospects.

---

III. Assassination of a Health Insurance CEO and Social Media Reaction

[06:45 – 14:44]

The conversation shifts to a tragic event: the assassination of Brian Thompson, CEO of UnitedHealthcare, by a masked gunman named Luigi Mangione. Favreau and Lorenz examine the unsettling social media reactions that followed the incident.

Key Points:

• Incident Overview: Luigi Mangione was arrested five days after the shooting, carrying a suppressor, fake ID, and a brief manifesto. Favreau characterizes the manifesto as,

  “the most online brained part of the manifesto that I've heard in a million different ways from others who did not kill CEOs.”
  — Favreau [01:15]

• Online Radicalization: They discuss how Mangione's digital footprint reveals a highly educated individual deeply embedded in online intellectual communities. Lorenz describes him as a “

  “highly educated, privileged Gen Z man who was so online...”
  — Lorenz [32:12]

• Social Media Response: Post-assassination, various online communities, spanning the political spectrum, embraced Mangione with memes, tattoos, and supportive posts. Favreau expresses concern over this phenomenon, stating,

  “But acting like doing the edgelord cosplaying is somehow helping others is what bothers me because really it's just about you.”
  — Favreau [14:34]

---

IV. Analysis of the U.S. Healthcare System

[14:44 – 26:47]

Favreau and Lorenz delve into the underlying issues within the American healthcare system that may have contributed to Mangione's actions. They critically examine the role of private insurance companies and the systemic failures that lead to public frustration.

Key Points:

• Systemic Failures: The duo discusses how the denial of insurance claims and exorbitant healthcare costs drive public anger.

  “Insurance companies deny claims all the time that the health care system is, can be a fucking mess and it can be brutal.”
  — Favreau [20:05]

• Private vs. Public Insurance: They explore the debate between maintaining private health insurance and transitioning to a more robust public option or single-payer system, acknowledging the complexities and trade-offs involved.

• Political Influence: Favreau emphasizes the significant influence of private insurers in politics through lobbying, which hampers meaningful healthcare reform.

  “A lot of the focus is on the free speech aspect of all this, which again, they do not buy that argument either.”
  — Favreau [03:43]

• Personal Accounts: Lorenz shares her experience with the system, highlighting the emotional and financial toll it takes on individuals, further fueling societal discontent.

---

V. Political Violence and Online Radicalization

[26:47 – 36:16]

The conversation transitions to the broader implications of political violence and how online communities can sometimes perpetuate harmful rhetoric. Favreau and Lorenz analyze the thin line between expressing legitimate grievances and advocating for extremist actions.

Key Points:

• Catalyst for Violence: Favreau discusses how systemic injustices can push individuals toward extremist actions, emphasizing that violence is never a solution.

  “Vigilante justice and political violence are bad. In every case... violence is not the answer, period.”
  — Favreau [13:37]

• Symbolic Support: Lorenz points out that symbolic support for such actions often stems from a perceived failure of the political system to address deep-rooted issues like healthcare reform.

• Historical Context: They draw parallels with post-9/11 sentiments and the rise of extremist ideologies, warning against the normalization of political violence.

• Radicalization Offline and Online: The duo distinguishes between offline radicalization, as seen with Mangione, and the echo chambers of online platforms that can exacerbate extremism.

---

VI. The Role of Social Media in Politics and Democratic Strategy

[36:16 – 61:47]

In the latter part of the episode, Favreau and Lorenz discuss the challenges Democratic politics face in the digital age, particularly regarding persuasion and coalition-building across fragmented online ecosystems.

Key Points:

• Media Ecosystems: They explore how various platforms like Twitter, TikTok, and Blue Sky influence political discourse differently, often hindering effective consensus-building.

• Persuasion Challenges: Favreau stresses the importance of reaching beyond politically engaged bubbles to engage the broader, often unpersuaded electorate.

  “We have to figure out collectively a conversation about politics that is persuasive to everyone else...”
  — Favreau [53:48]

• Twitter's Impact: Lorenz expresses concern over Twitter’s structure, which often diverts consensus-building efforts into score-settling and polarization.

  “It funnels everything away from the consensus building just by design...”
  — Lorenz [54:21]

• Content Moderation: They touch upon the difficulties of managing misinformation and the responsibilities of elected officials and journalists in maintaining informed discourse.

• Influence of Online Narratives: The discussion highlights how online narratives can shape public perception and influence election outcomes, emphasizing the need for more nuanced and fact-based communication strategies.

---

VII. Conclusion

Favreau and Lorenz conclude by reiterating the importance of addressing systemic issues through nonviolent means and fostering more constructive political dialogues both online and offline. They advocate for a move away from simplistic narratives towards comprehensive, informed discussions that can lead to meaningful societal reforms.

“If we want to bring about social and political change then there's the political system, there's nonviolent protest and nonviolent movements...”
— Favreau [21:06]

The episode underscores the complexities of modern political engagement, the dangers of online radicalization, and the critical need for cohesive strategies to navigate the challenges posed by our increasingly digital lives.

---

Notable Quotes:

• “TikTok challenged the law on First Amendment grounds, arguing that a potential ban would deny Americans access to TikTok as a venue for public expression.”
  — Taylor Lorenz [02:38]

• “Vigilante justice and political violence are bad. In every case... violence is not the answer, period.”
  — Jon Favreau [13:37]

• “We have to figure out collectively a conversation about politics that is persuasive to everyone else...”
  — Jon Favreau [53:48]

• “It funnels everything away from the consensus building just by design...”
  — Taylor Lorenz [54:21]

---

This episode of Offline with Jon Favreau offers a compelling examination of the tangled web between online behavior, political extremism, and systemic failures in the healthcare industry, urging listeners to engage thoughtfully and constructively in the pursuit of societal betterment.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Max Fisher]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Taylor Lorenz]

In all sincerity, I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who work in Silicon Valley who were like, I came into work today and I was looking around at the desk and being like that guy, that guy and that guy are all Luigi Mangione.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Favreau.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I'm Max Fisher.

[Jon Favreau]

Max, welcome back.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

We have lots to cover.

[Taylor Lorenz]

There's so much going on in the.

[Jon Favreau]

Offline world, so much last.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Maybe another friend of the pod out there taking it a little far.

[Jon Favreau]

Think hard about that offline challenge.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Unrequited. Yeah, I should be clear. It's an unrequited friendship with the pot.

[Jon Favreau]

So before we get to that, last week the D.C. circuit Court of Appeals rejected TikTok's attempt to overturn a law banning the Chinese owned platform from the app stores unless the company finds a new owner. This ruling means that unless TikTok is granted an emergency motion to pause the law and hope that either the Supreme Court takes up its case, the incoming Trump administration decides not to enforce the ban, or the incoming Republican Congress repeals the ban, the popular video app is currently scheduled to face a nationwide ban beginning on January 19th of 2025. So TikTok challenged the law on First Amendment grounds, arguing that a potential ban would deny Americans access to TikTok as a venue for public expression. They also attempted to dispute the law's claim that TikTok was a national security risk. The D.C. circuit did not buy either argument with a three judge panel ruling unanimously against TikTok's petition. What'd you think about this ruling? Did it surprise you?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I was not surprised. I mean, we can kind of argue about the merits of the ban and whether it comports with kind of the ideals of free speech. But the fact of the matter is the federal government has broad powers to regulate foreign owned companies, including media companies, and the bar for exercising that right is very low.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. And especially the court was reluctant to second guess a piece of legislation that was passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. They usually are with Congress. And we've talked about this before, but a lot of the focus is on the free speech aspect of all this, which again, they do not buy that argument either. But clearly the House members and senators who looked into this, who were on the intel committees are. We're very worried about the national security implications that go and I think that goes beyond the like is this a propaganda tool for China, which it very well could be, but I think there's national security implications about data privacy and just potential for spying on Americans that go beyond the propaganda concerns.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right. And crucially, they built the case on two planks, both on national security and also on data privacy. Maybe you believe the national security case or not because a lot of that is being expressed behind closed doors and with classified information. But even if you don't. And the three judge panels said that they still agreed with the ban on data privacy grounds anyway.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So what do you think is next for TikTok? You think there's a chance the Supreme Court takes up the case? Do you think Trump could reverse the ban or just instruct Pam Bondi like our new incoming attorney general? Get used to these names and because now presidents can instruct attorney generals of the attorneys general of this kind of thing to just not enforce the ban. Is there a world, do you think, where they still TikTok sells to a US buyer?

[Taylor Lorenz]

So there are a few different potential escape routes from a total ban. One is to find a buyer, as you mentioned. It's very hard to imagine that because antitrust concerns disqualified like 2 out of 3 of the potential companies that could even buy an 11 figure media company or an 11 figure social media platform. Microsoft is the only one who I think is not immediately like right off the bat disqualified in antitrust grounds. And they've shown no interest in this. And even if they were interested, it's not clear that you can get an 11 figure deal like I mentioned together in a couple of weeks Congress.

[Jon Favreau]

So we're Safe from Elon buying it, then?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Thankfully, yes. Antitrust. Thank God. As long as Lina Khan is in there, that's going to be her parting gift to us as Elon is not buying TikTok. No, I don't think he has the cash for it anyway. I mean, you can't get that kind of cash together that quickly. Congress, I think it's very unlikely they would roll it back because they're very China hockey, especially in the incoming Congress, which, again, we can agree or disagree with that, but that's where they are on it. Trump has been. This is going to surprise you, a little inconsistent on this question. In the past, he promised to save TikToks on the ground that banning it would help Facebook, which he considers an enemy of the people. But it seems like that was just campaign bullshit. More recently, he was asked whether he would save TikTok. Here's his answer. Quote, I use TikTok very successfully in my campaign. I have a man named tikt Talk Jack. I saw that it was very effective, obviously, because I won youth vote by 30%. So that obviously clears it up for everyone. Then he did go later on to say they have the right to ban if you can prove the Chinese companies own it. So to the extent that he is able to engage with this question mentally at all, he doesn't seem like he is inclined to save it.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, no, he's going to buy it, isn't he?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Truth Social antitrust again.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, good.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Once more saves the day. That's right. No, I don't know. Truth Social is going to the moon right now in the stock market. There's no way he wins to death, that one. So the only option which TikTok is going for is to try to get the Supreme Court to issue an emergency stay so that they can hear it. But that seems unlikely. The Supreme Court has not done anything to signal that they want to do that. The fact that it was a unanimous ruling by this court, I think, makes it very unlikely. So I think it's possible it's really going away.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think TikTok influencers and creators and users for that matter, start moving off TikTok onto other platforms like Reels? Or do they just wait in limbo like this? It's tricky for a lot of people I know.

[Taylor Lorenz]

And it's millions and millions of people. Yeah. I mean, maybe they take the offline challenge and they decide maybe they don't like being addicted to this app for hours a day. No. I mean, the number of eyeballs out There is static. The amount of time that people spend on their phone is static. I think users will move pretty quickly. The creator economy is actually kind of an interesting question, because the size of this economy, we're always learning, is so much bigger than you think. It is $250 billion global, maybe about half of that in the U.S. the numbers are fuzzy, but it seems like there are at least tens of thousands and maybe more Americans who make money from creating content for big social platforms like TikTok. For most of them, it's just a side gig. It's a couple thousand dollars a year that they get, you know, kind of like an uber side hustle. And those people who are using TikTok like that, I think are probably just going to be wiped out because you can't really just jump from one platform to another because the algorithms are different. What they promote is different. They're very opaque, they're very arbitrary. So probably those people are going have to find another side gig, which is tough because it's a moment when cost of living is going up.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And from, like, I feel like it's either reels becomes.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I mean, they want it to be the TikTok club.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. And we talked about why that has not worked as well. But either they become the default platform or another competitor pops up, which I imagine is quite difficult also to pull off. But it is wild that this algorithm is so special and unique that only TikTok could figure it out.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I mean, it's a very effective algorithm. I mean, it's clearly the fact that it went from zero users not that long ago to dominating the media ecosystem for young people in America is pretty impressive. But Instagram has been doing a lot to catch up lately, and Instagram has really been rising, especially with young users. So I think, unfortunately, Donald Trump is right that this is going to be a huge, huge win for Facebook, which will only further cement its hold on all of our minds.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is why he had dinner with Mark Zuckerberg, so they could just hang out, patch things up.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That's probably. Honestly that dinner is probably the biggest sign that the TikTok ban will go through. If he's patching it up with Mark. I think that's. If Mark says we're going to give you the algorithm juice again like we did last time, I think that's it.

[Jon Favreau]

Jesus. Just life in our life in our.

[Taylor Lorenz]

New oligarchy, isn't it?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, tech oligarchy. All right, let's get to the news. We're all here for On Wednesday, December 4, UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot dead outside a midtown Manhattan motel by a masked gunman. Five days later, police in Altoona, Pennsylvania arrested 26 year old Luigi Mangione, who was identified by McDonald's customer. He was found carrying a ghost gun suppressor, a fake New Jersey ID allegedly used to check into a Manhattan Hostel, and a 262 word handwritten manifesto. It's hard to call that a manifesto. More like a memo. Short memo.

[Taylor Lorenz]

You're not subscribing to Smart Brevity. You don't like the axios of terrorist manifestos? Be smarter.

[Jon Favreau]

You learn from Jim Vande Hei.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

Another. Yet another inspiration.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Are we sure that Jim Vande Hei was not on the grassy knoll in this one?

[Jon Favreau]

So you know, we are neither a true, true crime podcast nor a show about healthcare. But the social media reaction and the suspects huge, extensive digital footprint are right in our wheelhouse. So here we go. The shooter has been widely embraced on multiple platforms by users on the far left as well as some on the right, with people posting memes, calls for solidarity, and even a handful of fan cams featuring photos found on the shooters Tinder profile interspersed with security cam footage from the shooting. Someone even got a tattoo.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. What was the tattoo of? Luigi?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I mean, he's a good looking guy. I wouldn't get the tattoo.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, it could have been a deny, depose. The words on the bullet casings were deny, depose and delay. Delay. Thank you.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

Deny, delay and depose. Sorry, I'm not part of the movement.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Your application's still in the mail.

[Jon Favreau]

Still in the mail. United Health Group had to turn off reactions to their announcement of Thompson's death on Facebook and LinkedIn because there were too many laughing and thumbs up emojis. Ex Washington Post and New York Times journalist. Also former offline ghost Taylor Lorenz said on Piers Morgan show that she felt, quote, joy and wrote a substack piece titled, quote, why we want insurance executives dead.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Listen, we're talking about her. She got us to mention her name. Taylor Lorenz mentioned.

[Jon Favreau]

As you would expect, politicians have been more measured though. Elizabeth Warren.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know this, this really, this, this shocked me. Honestly.

[Jon Favreau]

One of our faves, Elizabeth Warren out there responded by saying, quote, violence is never the answer, but people can be pushed only so far. And that the shooting was a, quote, warning to the health insurance industry and the political system.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It's a nice rule of law you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.

[Jon Favreau]

I Got to say, Max, this is one where it was like, it started in the first day or two after. And I'm like, there's some crazy stuff going on on social media about this. It's only gotten worse.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, this is. I've noticed it hasn't gotten better.

[Jon Favreau]

It's gotten worse.

[Taylor Lorenz]

This is like. This is bothering you.

[Jon Favreau]

We can get into it.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I mean, that's what. I mean.

[Jon Favreau]

It's like.

[Taylor Lorenz]

What is it about it that you think is alarming you?

[Jon Favreau]

There's a lot. There's a lot.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

I think number one is you either believe that vigilante justice and political violence are bad.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

In every case. Or not.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. And if we are trying to uphold a democratic system, then no extrajudicial killings, no extrajudicial violence, and no political violence. Right. So you're either a good bar to say, if you think that United Healthcare Group has broken laws, then we need to depend on the justice system to right that wrong. And if there is injustice, if they do not hold them accountable, then that is the justice system that we have. It fails all the time. If you believe that they, United Healthcare is following the law, but are just creating sort of monstrous results for people, then you change the policy and the politics around it, because that's the system we have.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

But in either case, like it, violence is not the answer, period. Sure not. But.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Violence is not the answer, period. There's a second thing bothering me just from a political strategy perspective, which is I think a lot of the people who are either. Look, you're either celebrating it like Taylor Lorenz, you're excusing it, you're glorifying it. Whatever you're doing.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It's a lot of that. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Whatever you're doing, you can react however you want. We are. Do not listen to this episode and think that we are scolding you or policing you. You can laugh, you can do whatever. Do not think you are participating in discourse or a movement that is going to lead to political and social change and suddenly make insurance companies treat people better.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I saw some viral tweets to the effect of all of a sudden, you know, I heard from my sister, went to the pharmacist that every insurance claim is going through now because they really heard us and they really listened. And I just don't think.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Taylor Lorenz]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Taylor Lorenz]

This to me I think feels like a bit of a Twitter is not exactly real life moment. I mean offline, every single person I've talked to since this has happened has either made a joke about it or has said some half serious version of like boy that health insurance executive like got what he deserved right? Or boy those guys sure are bloodsuckers and now they know what it feels like. But I think that is not the same as the what you would see superficially as the prevailing attitude online which is this kind of what you're referencing. This like cosplaying anarchist, radical, revolutionary that I think in truth just begins and ends with posting. And I think that what we are seeing is like a little bit of online Edge lording of people saying look how like radical and brave I am for saying actually it's good to kill the CEO and then a lot of like light hearted online memeing that we can say whether or not it's in good taste.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Taylor Lorenz]

But I think it's just treating this as like a yarn to follow rather than, and I think people are telling themselves or tricking themselves into saying that the like online edge lording, radical, anarchist, we're going to kill all the CEO's sentiment is real and that like this goes to show that everybody wants single payer health care and everybody wants to like Purge all the CEOs in a like you know, Maoist cultural revolution. And I don't, I don't think that that's what's happening.

[Jon Favreau]

It also bothers me that there's a lot of like oh just all these elites just don't understand the anger that's out there. It's like no, that's not ye sure very aware. Yeah that insurance companies deny claims all the time that the health care system is, can be a fucking mess and it can be brutal. And I'm not surprised that there is intense anger and rage out there for people who've like faced financial ruin or lost their lives or lost loved ones or have just suffered because of the health care system we have where if you can't afford healthcare, which many people can't, like you could either die or at least lose everything you have. Of course there's rage about that. But acting like doing the edgelord cosplaying is somehow helping others is what bothers me because really it's just about you.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Oh for sure.

[Jon Favreau]

You feel like it's cathartic for you or you feel like you are performing for other people who think like you. And so the whole thing is a performance. If you actually want to bring about social and political change then there's the political system, there's nonviolent protest and nonviolent movements which you know, we had one in this country a while back that was pretty successful civil rights movement and there's a lot of research that honestly that, that nonviolent movements are more effective than violent political movements. Right. So just the idea that like, like you're in the know and you're in touch with people for sure.

[Taylor Lorenz]

No, that's flattery. No, I agree. But if I, if I can speak, I think the word that you used, catharsis, I think is exactly the right one for describing why people who are not the kind of like super online.

[Jon Favreau]

Meme Lords might just be like, ah, good.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah. I think it's like, I think people are not expressing and there is, you know, like the stuff you cited about like, you know, everyone is kind of going crazy for this guy. I think that is a real thing that's out there. I don't think it's literally the people think we should murder all the CEOs. I mean for one, the fact that we know a lot about Luigi Mangione specifically and he is a real person and we just know the healthcare CEO guy as like faceless healthcare CEO I think goes a long way to explain why people feel okay supporting this. I don't think that would be true if like he was a guy with a face who we felt like we knew. But I think that the degree to which people are supporting this symbolically, I think it is out of a sense that not just that the, we all know that the healthcare industry is bad and exploitative, but that it is an issue on which the political system is also unresponsive, corrupt, broken. And that is not to say that people have not tried, but as you yourself experienced, you can get really, really far in trying to reform the healthcare system. But you're still going to encounter the Joe Liebermans who are going to put up that final block. And to be at that moment where it feels like the entire nation is behind reforming the healthcare system and we still have, even though it is of course much improved in Obamacare, we still have this private system with insurers. I think that it feels to people, especially people who are maybe not following every like twist and turn in healthcare reform and legislation, like this system is corrupt, it's broken, it's being forced on us in a way that just like having your health insurance claim denied feels disempowering and humiliating. And I'm not saying that that means that it's good to endorse murder, but I think that that is why people like this like, yeah, fucking welcome kind of attitude.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and that's a really good point. It is, it is not those people that are real that bother me.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Sure, yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

You know what I'm saying? Because if you, if you, if, if your only impression of the healthcare system is your personal interaction with the healthcare system, when it you over right then like you're going to have that rage. That is understandable. It is people like, like journalists, like a Taylor Lorenz or people, you know, who, people do this like or pundits or observers.

[Taylor Lorenz]

There's so many people like this who.

[Jon Favreau]

Should know about better. Who should know better about like what a. What's true about the trade offs of a healthcare system and why we don't have healthcare reform. Right. Which is a big part of it is the profit motive of private insurance companies. A big part of it is the fact that they spend a lot of money in our political system to get their way. They have money to go lobby health politicians. An average person does not. That is a real problem. It's also true that as you dive into health care reform, which I have, that there are a lot of reasons, there are a lot of trade offs people.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Even in other countries that have some form of socialized medicine, that have some sort of, that don't have private health insurance or has, have mostly public insurance and not private insurance. You know what? People pay more out of pocket than they do here. I've heard the insurance companies here actually pay more of the out of pocket fees than in some other countries. Because the trade off is you're guaranteed coverage here. Here you're not guaranteed coverage. Right.

[Taylor Lorenz]

The cause of the problem is not the existence of health insurance executives.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Or exactly. Certainly not the existence. But it's not. And it's not just the system of private health insurance alone. It is part of the problem here. But if we got rid of that system, there could still be government bureaucrats, nameless, faceless bureaucrats denying your insurance claim as they do at the nhs, in the NHS in the UK all the time.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah. I have lived under a single payer healthcare system. There's much to say in support of it. There's much I loved about it and there's a lot about it that sucks. Yeah. And that's going to be true of any national health care system.

[Jon Favreau]

And that's not to say that like we shouldn't have that or we can't do better. No, fuck that. Like again we said this on Pod Safe America, but like I'm still a fan of Pete Buttigieg's you know, Medicare for all who want it plan and like let's get either a robust public option or let people buy into Medicare and see if they like it it and see how the system goes from there. Because we are dealing with the idea that if we were starting from scratch that perhaps single payer would be a better system for us. But we're not because we live in reality and if we want to move to somewhere better then you have to wrestle with the trade offs. You have to like build a movement. You have to convince people that it's better because it's not just the elites that you're. That are in your way, but like, a lot of Americans who are wrestling with the fact that they don't know if they want private insurance or government insurance because they don't trust big businesses or the government. And that's all stuff that you have to wrestle with. And that's a lot harder to deal with than just being like, oh, the executive's bad. Boo, boo. Cool.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It did occur to me that there's. Look, I agree with all of that. And it is. Every time I see someone say that, like, oh, this proves that there's a. The fact that there's a lot of memes around this guy proves that there's a mass movement in America for massive health healthcare reform. It's like, were you not fucking here in 2010? There was the whole movement where people got mad just for improving the system.

[Jon Favreau]

Just for improving the system. And like, again, I said this on Positive America, so forgive me if you've heard that episode too, but we passed the ACA and the first thing that happened in 2013, aside from the unfortunate website rollout, which again is like, doesn't say great things about government running healthcare.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I can still see those pajamas in my mind, right?

[Jon Favreau]

And then, number two, we tried to cancel all of the shitty health insurance plans that weren't good for people that didn't cover a lot, they didn't pay for a lot. And everyone got fucking mad because they're like, this was my health care plan and you told me we're going to cancel my healthcare plan. It's like, well, we wanted to cancel your healthcare plan because it's a shitty plan. We want to give you better insurance so that you don't face financial ruin. Even that, that small step pissed people off, right? So I'm just. It's just, it's more complicated and this is why it's good to talk about this here. It is much more complicated than. Than the online debate, the viral tweet.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That you get with the bumper sticker. Can I say one more thing?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Taylor Lorenz]

About the movement in support of the assassination. It occurred to me that the Venn diagram of people who think that killing a health insurance executive on the street is a form of righteous political change. And the people who think that killing Osama bin Laden was imperial murder overreach is probably a circle or pretty close to a circle.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, we were saying this earlier today, you and I, which is like, it reminds me, like, back after 9 11, there was like, why do they hate us?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Right, yeah. And there was a debate then about like, are we excusing Al Qaeda or is it important to look for the. Look at the source.

[Taylor Lorenz]

The legitimate grievances.

[Jon Favreau]

The legitimate grievances, right. Yeah. And I think it is entirely fair after you say, like, violence is not only morally wrong, but it is, like, antithetical to goals, to political goals in a democratic system. Once you leave that aside, you can say, like, how do we create a healthcare system where people aren't so pissed and upset that they are either sparing or losing all their life savings or dying? Or someone like Luigi, you can ask that question without being like, well, you know, people get pushed to their limit sometimes.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know, I know. Saudlan was pushed to his limits.

[Jon Favreau]

Right? Yeah. We were just like, well, you know, American imperialism. I guess we deserved it.

[Taylor Lorenz]

And you know what else they have in common? A couple of rich boys from privileged families grew up and got radicalized. Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Wasn't. Wasn't some. Yeah, exactly. Wasn't some, like, poor kid from Afghanistan. It was a fucking rich Saudi.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Not a lot of people know that. Luigi Mangione's parents air conditioned Mecca. Not a lot of people know that. Yes. It's a huge project.

[Jon Favreau]

Look at that. Look at that. In the same sense, like, people are pointing to. So Ben Shapiro said something about this and a bunch of his commenters were like, no, they were celebrating or at least excusing the murder as well. And so everyone's like, oh, well, it's bipartisan. I don't know. This is the kind of healthy bipartisanship that the political establishment often pines for. It feels to me more horseshoe theory, like. Or more crank realignment, as Matt Iglesias calls it. We talked about before.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I think there's some of that. And I think, I mean, again, it all depends on kind of how seriously you take, like, are people just saying that I'm mad and he's someone who expressed my anger or like, saying, I support this news article that I saw expressed my anger. But I mean, look, what is the defining feature of our time but a desire to strike back at an establishment that feels corrupt and unresponsive? That doesn't mean that everybody wants to shoot a healthcare CEO, but I think that that is something that resonates across the spectrum for sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Taylor Lorenz]

And there is. There is a. There's a. To your point about political violence, there is a straight line, it shows up across eras, across countries between distrust of the establishment and feeling the political system is unresponsive and support for political violence yeah, I'm not saying that's where we are. But even the fact that it's something.

[Jon Favreau]

To worry about though, for sure. And it's not just. And you know, it's not something just for elites to worry about. That's not why we're talking about it here.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

It is something for literally everyone in the country to worry about. Right. Like Luigi Mangioni's life isn't going to be much better now, nor people who have been denied claims, nor is the family of the guy who was murdered.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I have reported from a lot of countries that experienced a rise in political violence on quote unquote, the right side. And it never made the country better off. People were never happier for it.

[Jon Favreau]

No, it does, it is, it is self defeating. It is self defeating.

[Taylor Lorenz]

So we are against political violence on this show.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess that's what we have here that day. That's the take. Now let's talk a little bit about Luigi Mangioni himself who friends say was suffering from back pain after back surgery, but it seems like he was, he had, he got surgery. He had back pain.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

He had Blue Cross Blue Shield. Is that true?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Really?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, he, he talked about Blue Cross Blue Shield covering his irritable bowel syndrome, which he had another, he was, had complaints about too. But I think what's notable is he basically disappeared for the last six months, right? And I think there was a missing, missing persons report filed on him. So he basically, his digital footprint disappeared in the last six months of his before the killing. But the more we learn about him from his digital footprint, the more he seems like a fairly typical, highly educated, privileged Gen Z man who was so online that as you mentioned, there's a non zero chance he's listened to at least one episode of this show.

[Taylor Lorenz]

When I on his. I can't believe I'm saying this, his Goodreads review of Katherine Price's how to break up with your smartphone. He attached a Google Doc with a 12 page write up of the book that was, I thought, pretty good. And a number of the points in it are things that we said in our interview with Katherine Price.

[Jon Favreau]

Jonathan Haidt too, he's been, he was posting about him on Twitter. He followed everyone from AOC and Ezra Klein to Joe Rogan and RFK Junior.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Vivek's got some competition for that third chair. That's all I'm saying. Jesus.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. A.O. scott at the New York Times describes his Goodreads reviews as quote, books that fit comfortably into the universe of TED Talks podcasts. And smart guy substacks which I thought was a good description but you spent a lot of time combing through all of the shooters accounts. What else did you find? Other what are your thoughts on Luigi?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know this guy. I fucking know I have met this guy. I know this guy. Everyone is saying oh his views are incoherent or all over the place. It makes sense of him. Know everything about this guy's online footprint. The way he writes in his smart Brevity manifesto. He is an extremely specific type of guy who I've met with an extremely specific media diet, specific politics. Okay, Educated white male engineer who thinks of himself as curious, intellectual, a little bit woke but a little bit contrarian and hyper rational. He works in tech, he's into fitness but not sports. Posts on Reddit but in forums where people footnote their posts with links to academic articles which he did in his manifesto and actually in academic academic article that I've seen referenced before. It's a good one. Has a goodreads where he writes long thinky reviews. He is someone who is not part of the male loneliness epidemic but has shared extensive thoughts on how it should be addressed. And those thoughts 100% align I would say with the podcast offline with Jon Favreau. I mean beat for beat and most importantly I think like the key to understanding this guy, he listens to this network of podcasters who all have PhDs or tech accelerators and mostly do three hour interviews with like neuroscientists who talk about how to optimize your sleep or use AI to absorb more books like Andrew Huberman, Lexi Friedman, Tim Ferriss, Tim Urban. Like this is not the Rogan verse at all but it is a large and self contained pod based media ecosystem.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's like adjacent to the Rogan verse. It's not really Jason, it's maybe on the like. Like there is no spectrum anymore I guess. Political spectrum I was going to say. It's like it's a click away.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Honestly, in all sincerity, not doing a bit. I would say that it is a little bit closer to crooked media than it but it is substantially closer to Ezra Klein who he follows.

[Jon Favreau]

Ezra.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know, I know. Call your office. Ezra. You even see this in his manifesto. Like he refers to the process of tracking down his target as quote, fairly trivial and a matter of some elev. Elementary social engineering. If you ever talk to a Silicon Valley white male programmer that is exactly how they talk. It is his mindset that everything is an engineering problem, society is an engineering problem. And if A smart people apply some cold hard logic that we can fix the bugs in the system which aside from whatever like break he may or may not have had, I am sure informed his thinking here and he thought that he would just like taking some step that was rationally going to improve our healthcare system. System.

[Jon Favreau]

The most online brained part of the manifesto that I've heard in a million different ways from others who did not kill CEOs. Again, this is non ideological. This is across the political spectrum. Obviously the problem is more complex, but I do not have space and frankly I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty. There's so much, there's so much in those sentences that it's like, it's, it's the like this is a complex problem. But I, it's not on me to educate you. And also like, oh, I'm the first. Yeah, you're the first person, you're the first person to face down the brutality of the health care system in America. No one has ever confronted that before.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I'm telling you, I have texted with this guy. I actually, in all sincerity, I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who work in Silicon Valley who were like, I came into work today and I was looking around at the desk and being like that guy, that guy and that guy are all Luigi Mangione.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't have, frankly, I just do not have space or the time to educate you. I do have the space and the time to do. To get a gun. Yeah, an assassination. Do that. That I can do. That's a little easier. But the complexities of the healthcare system. Just read these.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I couldn't possibly walk.

[Jon Favreau]

I can, I can direct you to some links into some resources that I think would be good because frankly, I'm not going to do it.

[Taylor Lorenz]

But I am.

[Jon Favreau]

But I am courageous because I can stand up to the power games. So none of you understand that you're.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Saying that you are not going to subscribe to the substack that he is 100% going to start from prison.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh my gosh. There was a great tweet that I noticed. Austin did too. He put it in the slack from someone named Cancela Lansbury. Also just fucking fantastic Twitter name.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I love it.

[Jon Favreau]

Luigi is just another toxic Bernie bro turned hubermanitarian eco fascist Luddite accelerationist roided out gym rat Supplement pill chaser Trotskyite with washboard abs who refuses to elevate marginalized voices and probably hasn't even seen wicked.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That's right, I 100%. But they missed Yimby. He's definitely a Yimby. Definitely has a lot of thoughts on urban planning. Yeah, nailed it.

[Jon Favreau]

Here's another thing for us here on offline to reckon with. It seems like this is a case of someone who was not radicalized online. Like many, and I've seen a couple people make this point, he was right. It seems like he was radicalized offline either in the six months between when he sort of fell off the face of the earth and then the killing happened, or like, and he kind of says this in the manifesto, he's like, you're not going to find much for my digital digital footprint. I'm an engineer. Like, he knew enough not to be crazy online.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I mean, what I will say, it is completely of Silicon Valley guy thinking to look at a problem in society outside of engineering and be like, well, no one who's smart enough to be a tech engineer has looked at this problem seriously yet and has tried to solve it. So clearly something happened in the last six months that took him, I would say, pretty big step further from posting on Reddit to what he did. But I do think that you can kind of draw a line between, you know, I mean, fucking Mark Zuckerberg used to talk all the time about how like, well, with a few lines of code on the Facebook algorithm, we can like, promote democracy worldwide. Like, this is kind of a, like, way of thinking.

[Jon Favreau]

I know it is. It's. And it's just very. What is online about the thinking is the. Everything is black and white. There are simple explanations. There are easy answers. And the reason that things have not been fair is we are ruled by crooks and idiots.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. And I, with my rational knowledge will come in and I can fix it. I mean, it's a little like, it's a. There's obviously no violence involved, but it is. It reminded me of like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk doing Doge and like every day is something new to them. You know, it's like, do you know that government wastes money and there's this program that doesn't work and blah, blah, blah, we're going to bring tech know how to this and figure it all out.

[Taylor Lorenz]

So how do you think Luigi voted in 2020? Because I have my guess, I think.

[Jon Favreau]

He voted for Trump.

[Taylor Lorenz]

No way.

[Jon Favreau]

You think KAMALA I think 20.

[Taylor Lorenz]

20.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, 2020. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I think, I think at least. Liz Warren, voter. Maybe Bernie.

[Jon Favreau]

I think he's a registered Republican. They said.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Oh, is he really?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, he voted and he voted in.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Front of doing my research.

[Jon Favreau]

I think he voted in the Maryland primary. Also, his family, very wealthy family in Maryland. Sure. Like, some of them were in Maryland Republican politics in mar. So it's a very. It's not, you know, it's not something that you just predict. Although, like you said, his, his. Maybe his political beliefs and identities are cohesive.

[Taylor Lorenz]

They are, absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I definitely. I could buy that. Offline is brought to you by Factor. Notice how the days are shorter, but your to do lists aren't. Don't I know it. Power through your busy days with Factor's no prep, no mess. Meals factor has you covered with 35 different delicious meals every week and over 60 additional convenience options you can add to your box, like keto cookies, pressed juices and smoothies.

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[Taylor Lorenz]

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[Taylor Lorenz]

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[Taylor Lorenz]

I like those keto cookies.

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[Taylor Lorenz]

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Yeah. Got some good breakfast items that you can add too. I love Factor. Head to factor meals.com 50offline and use code 50offline to get 50% off your first box and 20% off your next month. That's code 50offline@ Factor meals.com 50offline to get 50 percent off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. The credit card companies are ripping you off and you don't even know it. Every time you use your credit card, they charge a hidden swipe fee. It cost the average family more than eleven hundred dollars per year. Eleven hundred dollars. That's because the credit card companies organize banks into pricing cartels. It's like OPEC for credit cards with no competition. We have the highest credit card swipe fees in the world. That's just wrong. Thankfully, the House and Senate have a bipartisan bill to fix this problem. It's called the Credit Card Competition Act. It would finally make credit card companies compete like every business across the country is supposed to do. So call your senators and representatives and tell them to pass the credit card competition act. Offline is brought to you by Quints. Finding the perfect gift can be pretty overwhelming around the holidays. You always want to make sure you're giving gifts that people actually want. Yeah, that's a good idea. This year, give timeless gifts made from premium materials. With quints, Quint lets you treat your loved ones and yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. Their super soft fleece sweatpants are a major upgrade to whatever you're lounging in right now. And their packable puffer jackets are perfect for anyone who's traveling for the holidays. Unfortunately, I don't go anywhere where I need a, a packable puffer jacket, but let me tell you, those super soft fleece sweatpants, you're going to want some of those. They are very, very soft. They're great for just hanging around the house. They look great. Quint has a ton of great clothes. They got nice sweaters, shirts. Definitely. Check it out. Gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quint.com offline for 365 day return plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com offline to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com offline so finally, strangely enough, the assassination of a major health insurance CEO was not the only offline worthy healthcare news this week. Max, you brought up the Anthem Blue Cross vs American Society of anesthesiologists fight in our pitch meeting this week. You want us to give us a rundown of what happened?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I am fucking fired up about this as an online moment. I actually think that this is like a seminal moment in the intersection between online and real world politics. Okay, so to give you the very, very quick. So there was a press release that said that Anthem Blue Cross quote will no longer cover anesthesia for the full length of certain surgeries in Connecticut, New York and Missouri. The implications of that and of other versions of that being that, you know, three quarters of the way through your surgery, they're gonna have to pull off the painkillers because insurance is no longer gonna cover it or you're gonna wake up and learn that you're being footed with the bill for the last hour of your surgery. So there was this huge online outrage cascade just absolutely everywhere. I was hearing about it from people who don't even have social media. Kathy Hochul tweeted, outrageous. I'm going to make sure New Yorkers are protected. Chris Murphy, the senator tweeted this is appalling. And for what? Just to boost corporate profits. Anthem reversed the ruling. And then it turned out a few days later that the entire thing had been a hoodwink by the association of Anesthesiologists. So anesthesiologists make on average, on average, $470,000 a year. They are some of the most highly paid doctors in America.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe the most highly paid, maybe the most cardiac. Maybe like cardiac surgeons and anesthesiologists.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, and like ophthalmologists, which is because they have a cartel. And they are.

[Jon Favreau]

That's another episode.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I got another hour on this right now on the ophthalmologist cartel. By the way, RIP to one ophthalmologist. So anesthesiologist. Wow. Bringing it full circle. That's Bashar al Assad. I know. You know, but I'm helping.

[Jon Favreau]

No, thank you. That's good. Okay.

[Taylor Lorenz]

So anesthesiologists, notorious, notorious for overbilling. It's a huge problem. It's been documented in studies. They'll have a four hour surgery, they'll bill for eight hours. And remember that they're paid so much. So I will say, though, God bless.

[Jon Favreau]

Them, especially if you're one that I encounter at some point.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know, I know. If I have an anesthesiologist, my future.

[Jon Favreau]

They are very good.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Not talking about you.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a tough word.

[Taylor Lorenz]

You're the good one.

[Jon Favreau]

I get why they're the highest paid.

[Taylor Lorenz]

We're standing up and we're saluting right now. Medical overbilling is. It's a huge problem. It's responsible for hundreds of billions of dollars just in Medicare every year. According to some estimates, it's a huge driver of the cost of health care in America. And what happened is that because anesthesiologists are so notorious for over billing, Anthem in these three states said that it would follow these med Medicare metrics that were set for what procedure lengths are supposed to be. And they said, look, we'll still reimburse you anesthesiologist if your procedure goes longer than that. But you have to provide some documentation. Your procedure, that usually goes two hours, you say it goes eight. We're not going to pay you eight hours automatically. You have to give us a piece of paper that says this is real. This is not something that was being passed on to customers. It was just anesthesiologists. Whether they would get reimbursed or not. Their association, their fucking cartel put out a highly misleading press release that wildly distorted the issue. And everybody online appointed themselves as the vigilante healthcare justice enforcers without bothering to do a single Google to find out whether they were being had by moneyed interests and managed to get conned into doing an online outrage mob on behalf of medical overbilling because the change got rolled back.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, now I think now you know why I was so frustrated with the discourse around the killer too. This is the. It's like no one and like, do.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Your fucking, do a single Google. Even though it feels good to mash that RT button, maybe you're not actually helping, maybe you're actually literally doing harm.

[Jon Favreau]

But this is also the. I mean, the fact that again, it's probably useless to just complain about random users doing this, but when it rises to the level of the governor of New York, a senator, don't you have a staffer? Well, that's right, that's. But this is. And look, we are. I've fallen victim to this. I'm sure you have.

[Taylor Lorenz]

We all have.

[Jon Favreau]

This is. This is why it is. Is not personal failings that is the problem with social media, but social media and the incentives that when you see something like that, you're just like, ah, qt. Fuck that.

[Taylor Lorenz]

This is why I think that we are going to look back on this as a big moment. Because online outrage mobs have always been like, frankly, pretty easy to manipulate and whip up, especially by lying about your target. And people who are super online who do this a lot have been doing it for years, years for free. So now that muddied interests with billions of dollars of stake have figured out that they can overturn a regulation with a misleading press release. You don't think they're going to mess.

[Jon Favreau]

That up just by rage baiting.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So rage baiting is a tactic by the powerful. What a. I know.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I do. I do think that if you get your news on social media that you are a little bit responsible. I do.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's what you know. And again, you just. It's fine to get your news on social media, but like, you got to double. You got to do double and triple checking.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I know.

[Jon Favreau]

Especially. Especially if you're a elected representative.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, I would say they have a little bit. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Journalists. Yep. Elected representatives. Yeah. Those are all people with responsibility.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah. Just read a single news article or get your news not from Twitter. Here's a thought.

[Jon Favreau]

That's. Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah, it's great. New York Times, Washington Post. Sure. Crooked media podcast, Crooked media podcast, whatever it may be, where I get my.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Healthcare.

[Jon Favreau]

So, on a somewhat related note, I finally wrote down some fully formed thoughts you did about the election and why Democrats need to get back into the persuasion business that you can read in where else but the Atlantic?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I the other friend of the pod. No, it's a great piece. People should read it. I thought it was very thoughtful and a lively read.

[Jon Favreau]

I just bring it up here because it's about the divide we've talked about here many times between those of us who follow and post and talk about politics and the vast majority of people, largely working class, who do not, I. E. The majority that turned against Democrats not just in the recent election, but now in many elections since 2020, I mean, 2016 and before. I think that persuading these voters is both our top priority and something that will require a much different approach to politics than how it's discussed online. Do you have any questions about why I decided to bang my head against this particular wall yet again?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Well, so I wanted to talk about this because you've now kind of run this AB test basically, where you have made your case for what went wrong in the election. On podcasts, on Twitter, which went great.

[Jon Favreau]

That's great.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Still going great on cable news, in a magazine article, what do you feel like you have learned about the relative merits of those platforms and media ecosystems for kind of serving this moment?

[Jon Favreau]

It's a great question. I think that, to be completely honest, the real challenge as I write about in the piece, is sort of breaking through to the casual news consumer who I think is forming their impressions about politics and the parties through not just what politicians are saying anymore or even what parties are saying, but through like an amalgam of take takes from influencers, social media users, journalists, whoever it may be, pundits. And so when you're, if you're just dipping in and you're scrolling through TikTok or Twitter or you catch a chiron on cable news, all of these things are contributing to your belief about politics. And so in one hand, that's why everything that is said in that bubble of people who pay close attention to politics matter matters. On the other, we have not figured out how to reach beyond that bubble, which is why, you know, whether I did it on Twitter, on this podcast or in the Atlantic, not breaking out of the bubble. But I have come to think that like we, meaning those of us who talk about politics or post about politics or whoever. And again, this is everyone from, from politicians who sort of matter most here and media figures to just someone who has a big following an influencer or someone else just because they post a lot. And I think we have to figure out collectively a conversation about politics that is persuasive to everyone else to the extent that you are part of the group of politically engaged people who want Democrats to win or want. Want to stop Trump's movement. Right. Because maybe you're not a Democrat. But so, but in terms of the different mediums, like, look, I feel more. I feel most comfortable here talking about politics, but I'm aware that, like, there's still, like, there are things, there are points that I will make on podcasts that we've all made on podcasts on crooked media that don't get as much attention until they are, like, written down. Yeah. Or clipped in a. In a clip that you see on Twitter, as we have come to learn sometimes, unfortunately. And so it was like, it felt good to sort of, from a personal standpoint, it feels good to sometimes, like, get fully formed thoughts down that aren't a tweet or that you're just. That aren't just going to, like, be heard and then forgotten to, like, actually get it down. So that's what I enjoyed about, like, actually writing the piece. But in terms of, like, how effective, I. I don't know. I don't know which is most effective at all.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Well, I mean, to the.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess I would say Twitter is probably least effective.

[Taylor Lorenz]

That's part of why I ask about it, is that, as you said, part of what you were trying to do is, I mean, you're kind of, on the one hand, thinking about, like, trying to reach people who are persuadable, but on the other hand, it is part of an internal conversation within the coalition about what is gonna be persuadable or what is a persuasive message. And it feels like that is the big conversation right now that is happening across these different mediums. And I wonder what you think it kind of means, means for Democrats that so much of that internal coalitional, like, what did we learn? What went wrong conversation is happening on Twitter.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, it's interesting, too, because I started thinking about this when Adam Jennison, you know, wrote his piece in the New York Times about the groups and how, you know, a lot of special interest groups or activists who are part of organizations and nonprofits, sort of like the influence that they have on Democratic politicians. And I thought it was a compelling piece, but I think it leaves out the. Or it doesn't. It. It doesn't include another group of people who are influential, which is just, you know, Your, your terminally online posters and influencers who may not be part of the ACLU or immigrants rights groups or whoever or whatever else. Right. But they are posting a lot. And I don't think that Democratic politicians or like the official Democratic Party is ever going to have any kind of control over that amorphous blob of left leaning posters and talkers. But I'm hoping that people who do that know that like you have more influence than you might think. And what we say, like each individual, what we say is not super influential, but together it is. And so I do think that like anyone with an opinion and a phone and a following like, does play a role in shaping perceptions about politics. And so therefore I think that conversation is important to have just with each other as we go out there and post and talk to voters and et cetera. So like that's sort of why I want to do it.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Well, I mean it's the part of, it's part of the process for any party that loses a big election is that you bring together everyone in the coalition, not just in the party, not just in the groups, but the media leads whoever is part of that to kind of arrive at a consensus for what happened. Why did it happen? What did we learn, what are we supposed to change going forward? And it really feels like that's happening primarily on Twitter. Do you think I'm wrong? Is there some other room somewhere where this is kind of all taking place?

[Jon Favreau]

I think it's happening. I think the conversation is happening on Twitter still. I think, I guess some of it's happening on Blue sky now. I don't get in trouble. I'm already made.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Blue sky mentioned.

[Jon Favreau]

Blue sky mentioned. Yeah, no, I made a light joke about Blue Sky. I'm there. It's fine. Everyone on Blue sky, it's okay.

[Taylor Lorenz]

We're all just making jokes.

[Jon Favreau]

It's okay. Come on, don't worry about it. I think the conversation is happening there. I think it's hard. You can't really say that TikTok is where a conversation is taking place as much.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It was one direction.

[Jon Favreau]

Right? It's one direction. I know you can comment on the like, I get that, but there's not, it's not as two way as some of the other social media platforms. So I still think for better or worse, and oftentimes worse, you know, Twitter is where that conversation is happening, right? What do you think?

[Taylor Lorenz]

I worry. I think as best I can tell, that's where it's taking place. And I think it's. You're going to be shocked to hear this. Not great that it's happening on Twitter. I mean, I feel like after any election loss, there's, like, there's the consensus building in coming together and lesson learning, and then there's always going to be some, like, recriminations and there's going to be some opportunistic score settling of, like, I don't like this guy, so I'm going to try to push him out of the coalition or I think this faction gets listened to too much, so I'm going to try to blame them for it. It always happens. It's not great. But I think what is dangerous is that Twitter funnels everything away from the consensus building just by design, by the way it's structured and towards the score settling and the, like, interpersonal bullshit. And I feel like I've seen so many conversations where you see people coming into it and they're trying to do the consensus building. They're trying to do the, like, what did we learn from this exit poll? What did we learn from the way people talk about the economy? And it just turns into just this, like, series of dunks. So it's like, like, fuck the left or fuck the center left, or they're the ones who ruined it. Or like, I can't believe when you said the groups, you mean this thing that I'm really angry about and I worry about that dynamic where it's just driving everyone further into their corners and this belief that the micro, micro, micro faction of the Democratic Party that I represent is the only good one and everybody else is evil.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, well, it's funny because, you know, a lot of people who know me and read the piece are like, oh, how's it being received? How's it being received? And I'm like, well, it's. It's Twitter, so like, obviously not. Well, is that true? Well, no, no, I would say that, like, so here, here's the challenge of it. Like, you want it. You want to write the piece. Not so people can say, like, great piece, but so people can say, like, oh, I like this point. I disagreed with this point. Let's talk about. Right? And so I would say that, but, like, the majority of comments are idiots. And I call them idiots. Not because they disagree with me, because they say mean things in response, in insults and just dumb, dumb shit. You know, left, right, whatever.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Then there's people who are just like, you know, who. Thoughtful responses. Right. That either agree with some parts of it or disagree. And there are people who'd like do this for a living. Like before we were doing like, you know, Derek Thompson wrote something about it and Brian Boitler who used to work at Crooked, like, wrote a nice piece about it that did not agree with me at all. And like had or didn't agree with me completely, but agreed with parts. And we talked about. And I was going back and forth with the process, right? And I was like, okay, well those responses I'm going to engage with because I do think that the conversation. And I'll amplify those even if they disagree with me, because I'd rather people sort of just like get the full part of the debate. But I don't know. But people's questions, I'm like, I don't know how it's fucking playing. I don't know if I'm persuading because there's some people who are just like, step one is to get rid of your fucking dumb podcast, bro.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, sure.

[Jon Favreau]

There's some fun too.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, I did appreciate that it didn't have the, like, here's the easy, obvious solution. And if Democrats had only done this, then we would have won for sure. Which I would. Whenever I see that, I'm like, I don't think this is probably going to be serious analysis.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, it's funny because someone keeps replying to me that they're like, you think that the answer is to persuade everyone, but like, why aren't you open to the fact that you should be persuaded? And I'm like, where did I say? Yeah, I am very open to being persuaded.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I've seen you be persuaded.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I'm very persuaded. Very open and persuasive and like, I don't think any of us have the answers here. Like, part of my whole point is that to be suspicious of easy answers, right. Or answers that are, we're ruled by crooks and liars and we've just got to fix that. Right, Right. Like I just. A lot of truth to that, A lot of truth to that. But like, if we want to, like, problems are problems for a reason. A lot of times they're complex and they like take in their trade offs and we got to work through them. And I just want to have that conversation.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It makes me wish we had a better forum.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, me too.

[Taylor Lorenz]

You know, I think it would be.

[Jon Favreau]

Really important right now the Blue sky people are going to write and say, this is the forum.

[Taylor Lorenz]

You know what, maybe it's the least bad option, you know, being persuadable. Maybe I'm persuadable. That Blue sky is the least bad place to have this conversation.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, I'm checking in there, too. I took both Twitter and Blue sky off the phone after the.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Did you?

[Jon Favreau]

After the Great Dan interview with the Harris campaign, and then me jumping in after that, which we didn't really talk about. But I'm like, I took both of them off the phone. I didn't deactivate them. Them. I just. And now they're. Now they're both back on.

[Taylor Lorenz]

I. There's moments when I've done that because it's like I'm going to see some dunk that I just know is so stupid and I'm going to have the perfect answer to it is going to pop into my head and I'm going to fire it off before I can think better of it. Right. And that was why.

[Jon Favreau]

It's just not. Yeah, that's why I was like, I did enough of that. I don't need more for now. And now, now I'm back. So.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Well, it was a brief offline challenge.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, exactly. All right, some quick housekeeping. Critics are calling Empire City the untold origin story of the nypd. Riveting, thought provoking and essential listening. Haven't started it yet. Now is the perfect time. Hailed by Vulture as not just an expose, but a call to action in just eight episodes, Empire City takes you back to the origins of the NYPD and completely reframes the way we think about policing today. Listen to the series now wherever you get your podcasts or binge all episodes ad free on Wonder plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Offline is a crooked media production. It's written and hosted by me, Jon Favreau, along with Max Fisher. It's produced by Austin Fisher and Emma Ilk Frank. Jordan Cantor is our sound editor. Charlotte Landis is our engineer. Audio support from Kyle Seglin, Jordan Katz and Kenny Siegel take care of our music. Thanks to Ari Schwartz, Madeline Herringer, Reed Churlin and Adrian Hill for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn and Delon Villanueva, who film and share our episodes as videos every week. Variety raves Maria is absolute perfection. An Entertainment Week Weekly hails Academy Award winner Angelina Jolie brings tragedy and triumph to the last days of opera singer Maria Callis.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Finally, I am in control.

[Jon Favreau]

And critics agree it's a towering tour de force performance from Angelina Jolie and a career best My life is opera. There is no reason in Opera Maria, directed by Pablo Laray for your consideration now playing its Lech Peterson on Netflix.

[Max Fisher]

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