Podcast Summary: "What Comes After Trump?"

Offline with Jon Favreau | Date: December 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this thoughtful year-end episode, Jon Favreau hosts author and journalist George Packer for a far-reaching conversation about the state of American democracy in the second Trump term, the cultural and technological shifts driving polarization, and what comes after the Trump era. The discussion draws on Packer’s recent Atlantic piece, America’s Zombie Democracy, as well as his new political novel, The Emergency, exploring the roots of authoritarian drift, the challenges of rallying Americans around democratic ideals, and the possibility of a future built on renewed commitment to equality and unity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. American Authoritarianism: What It Looks Like Now

• Packer’s Core Argument ([11:55] George Packer):

  • 21st-century authoritarianism wears a “veneer of democracy”—no jackbooted troops, but a steadily eroding system of checks and balances as institutions fail to contain an all-powerful leader.

  • Congress, the Justice Department, the military, and the courts are becoming tools of the president or are too fractured to mount real resistance.

  • Public passivity persists, partly because most Americans do not encounter direct repression in their daily lives.

    “It looks more like 21st-century authoritarianism, which is a sort of veneer of democracy and of freedom, but gradually an erosion of all the ways in which the citizenry and the institutions can check the power of the leader.” — George Packer ([11:55])

2. Why Doesn’t It “Feel” Authoritarian for Most Americans?

• Favreau’s & Packer’s Analysis ([15:20]):

  • Americans’ day-to-day experience doesn’t match the warning signals—the slide is gradual, and most feel untouched unless directly targeted.

  • Most people’s concerns remain rooted in practical issues like the economy and public safety; democracy feels abstract, and people are conditioned to think “it can’t happen here.”

  • Mass mobilizations (like the “No Kings” rallies) hint at underlying broad unease but also show people often lack concrete ways to oppose anti-democratic drift.

    "It's very hard to imagine something that has never happened happening. So you just assume the thing that has always happened will go on happening until it hits you in the face." — George Packer ([15:20])

3. The Political Challenge: Mobilizing Against Authoritarianism

• Election Messaging ([18:47]):

  • Democrats focus on material issues because threats to democracy rarely motivate swing voters, who feel democracy hasn’t delivered for them.

  • Both sides claim democracy is in danger, but for conflicting reasons—leading to a hollow debate.

    "If one side is saying we have to save our democracy, a lot of people think, well, our democracy isn't working because of X, Y and Z in my life." — George Packer ([18:47])

4. The Deeper Roots: What Made America Vulnerable?

• Packer’s Big Three Causes ([24:51]):

  1. Economic Change: Loss of an industrial economy, rise of the knowledge economy, and stark division between college-educated “winners” and the left-behind.
  2. Cultural Change: The legacy of immigration, rights revolutions, and rapid redefinition of norms—leading some to feel displaced.
  3. Social Media: Tech platforms amplify division, reward outrage, and “drive us to our worst selves.”

  “The greed and wickedness of the tech oligarchs... has driven us to our worst selves because that’s what keeps us glued to the screen.” — George Packer ([24:51])

5. Democracy as a ‘Way of Life’ and the Role of Civic Virtues

• The Tocqueville & Dewey Vision ([30:29]):

  • Democracy depends not just on laws but on shared cultural habits: restraint, responsibility, tolerance.

  • These “habits of the heart” are not natural; they must be instilled and practiced face-to-face.

    “Tocqueville wrote that they are not natural; they're nothing that we're really born with. Democracy in many ways is not natural... To prevent [a return to authoritarianism], I think we have to practice it.” — George Packer ([31:36])

6. Beyond Screens: Technology, AI, and the Threat to Human Connection

• Generational Backlash and New Fears ([36:20]):

  • Some schools are removing smartphones; there’s hope that younger people will reclaim focus and real conversation.

  • AI may pose greater threats—potentially “replacing us in so many different sectors,” and even tempting people with visions of algorithmic leadership.

    "If social media was like a bunch of choppy waves that nearly drowned us, here comes this tsunami [AI]." — George Packer ([36:20])

• Silicon Valley's Philosophy vs. Democracy ([39:42]):

  • Tech elites often see government as obsolete and clumsy, favoring technical over democratic solutions—a mentality that’s become even more anti-regulation and detached from broader society.

    "The most powerful people in Silicon Valley have decided that... the Democratic Party is this stupid and wicked organization that needs to be put in the corner so that they can save the world and make a lot of money..." — George Packer ([39:42])

7. Entertainment vs. Ideology: How Trumpism Differs from Historic Authoritarianism

• From Amusing Ourselves to Death to Real Nationalist Radicalization ([47:13], [48:42]):

  • Trumpism is less ideological than historic fascism; it’s spectacle and performance for many, leading to passivity.

  • The next right-wing wave (e.g., J.D. Vance) may be more ideological, explicit in its blood-and-soil nationalism, and more appealing to young people seeking meaning.

  • Young people’s political hunger can be drawn toward charismatic, action-oriented movements—on both the right and left.

    “There is a sense of exhaustion with being human. It’s hard, it’s burdensome... [AI] provides a way not to have to deal with the messiness of other human beings.” — George Packer ([44:07])

8. Can Pro-Democracy Forces Inspire?

• The Search for a Positive Narrative ([54:12], [57:39]):

  • Liberal democracy struggles as an “exciting” mission but must reclaim the moral high ground of equality, agency, and shared narrative.

  • A narrative rooted in the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln’s vision must be bold, hopeful, and include recognition of progress and unfulfilled promise.

  • The left’s self-defeating pessimism or cynicism about America undermines this; hope and unity are indispensable.

    "If America is the America that the academic left thinks, then we’ve lost nothing under Trump. He's just exposed it. So what's your argument against Trump? You don't have one." — George Packer ([61:28])

9. Fiction and Feeling: Why George Packer Wrote The Emergency

• Art and the Emotional Truth of Crisis ([65:38]):

  • Packer wanted to escape stale political language and get at the feeling of America’s moment—its boredom, division, and the search for meaning—by returning to fiction.

  • The novel imagines an empire dying of stagnation, with young people in city and country striving to build new ideals in the void.

    “I wanted to get away from all of that. Not to escape, but to try to go deeper into not the news of what it's like to see America in this crisis, but the feeling of it.” — George Packer ([65:38])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Why Warnings Fall Flat:
  “Most Americans are lucky enough not to encounter [authoritarianism] in their personal lives... We're just this big, distracted, divided, commercially minded, busy, noisy country.”
  — George Packer ([15:20])

• On Practicing Democracy:
  “We need to, face-to-face, not just on screens and cameras... talk to people who we think we have very little in common with and figure out how we can talk to each other.”
  — George Packer ([31:36])

• On Patriotism and Liberal Ideals:
  “The most patriotic speech I ever heard was the first time I heard Barack Obama at the 2004 convention… patriotism rooted in the founding ideals of the country that we have never quite lived up to, but have always pushed us forward.”
  — Jon Favreau ([60:14])

Timestamps of Key Segments

| Time | Segment / Topic | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:39–02:22| Jon Favreau’s year-end political summary | | 11:53 | Packer defines today’s authoritarianism | | 15:20 | Why most Americans don’t feel authoritarian drift | | 18:47 | The politics of “saving democracy” vs. bread-and-butter issues| | 24:51 | Underlying causes of American malaise | | 30:29 | Democracy as “habits of heart” | | 36:20 | Screens, youth backlash, and the tsunami of AI | | 39:42 | Tech vs. Government: Silicon Valley’s anti-democratic impulse | | 47:13 | Trump’s entertainment authoritarianism; new nationalist right | | 54:12 | Can democracy offer an equally “exciting” vision? | | 65:38 | Why Packer turned to fiction in The Emergency |

Tone & Style

• Conversational, candid, and (often) self-deprecating, with both Favreau and Packer balancing deep concern for America’s future with critical perspective on their own side’s blindspots.
• The discussion alternates between analytical, historical, and philosophical reflections and concrete accounts of present-day political behavior and cultural change.
• Both host and guest challenge fatalism, insisting on the need for hope and renewed civic practice.

Final Reflection

Favreau and Packer close with a call to recommit to America’s founding ideals—not out of naïveté, but as the only possible rallying point for a deeply divided, diverse, and sometimes cynical nation. They warn that democracy requires active maintenance—through both policy and culture—and that the fight for a better America is far from over, if only we’re willing to make its promise real for a new generation.

Recommended for listeners interested in:

• The practical mechanics and cultural psychology of American authoritarian drift
• The limitations of current left and right narratives
• How digital technology and social media undermine democracy—and what a future backlash might offer
• Rebuilding a positive, inclusive vision of citizenship and patriotism