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Oil and Gas Upstream
Black & Veatch, Leading in Floating LNG Technology with Brian Mandelbaum | Ep 347
00:29:08
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- [00:04]
A
Oil and gas production is the union of natural systems with advanced science and complex engineering. Smart people across the globe create this remarkable place we call Upstream. And each day brings a new challenge. This is the Oil and Gas Upstream podcast where we look at how these systems come together and learn from the people who make it happen. Welcome to Oil and Gas Upstream. I'm Elena Milkert, your host. Some of you know me as the former Director for Oil and Gas Upstream Research at the US Department of Energy. I retired from the doe, founded Energia Consulting, and joined the Oil and Gas Global Network as a podcast host. We are recording in person at SARAH Week, and this is day four, I think. Ooh, it's been quite a conference. It's so exciting. So many people and this is such a special time for energy. So really excited to be here. I do want to shout out to my sponsor, oh, ifs who can help you maximize efficiency, reduce costs, and enhance asset reliability with their software designed to support the unique needs of the oil and gas industry. For more information ifs.com and now my guest today is Brian Mendelbaum. He's the Vice President and Managing Director of Independent Fuel Producers at Black and Veatch. Brian, thanks so much for joining us today.
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B
Happy to be here.
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A
Excellent, excellent. So tell us a little bit about your background and then. And Black and Veatch. And just who are you, what you do and what do you know?
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B
Yeah, so I've been at Black and veatch for about 25 years right out of school. I've had multiple positions within the company over that time. I'm a structural engineer by school. Spent 10 years in the power industry, spent a couple years in construction, spent a couple years in our back office business operations, and then in about eight years in our floating LNG business. Most recently I was five years as our hydrogen solution leader. And as of three months ago, I'm now in this new role.
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A
Oh, okay, very good. What is that role? What is Managing Director of Independent Fuel Producers? Like, what's an independent fuel?
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B
Yeah, so Black and Veatch were organized by client segments. So that's one of our client segments. That generally means our FL&G clients and our midstream clients at Black and Veatch. That's kind of generally what that topic means.
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A
Okay, and tell us about Black and Veatch.
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B
So Black and veatch is over 100 years old infrastructure company.
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A
So infrastructure pipelines.
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B
We're known for power, water, lng, oil and gas. That's kind of our main place. We're Also now in transmission and cybersecurity and all the other things like that.
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A
Great. Also all the surface stuff, we get it out of the ground upstream and then we hand it over to people like you with those facilities and the like and go, okay, well that's great. That's an important part of the value chain. I mean, there's no point in producing it if you can't take it to market. And of course, we're seeing some of that right now with the Strait of Hormuz. So it's a very critical element that we have here. Okay, well tell us a little bit about lng. LNG is, well, first of all, part of the conference, part of the CERA week. One of the major themes has been natural gas. For many reasons, natural gas and then LNG as the big end use, I guess, which is not really an end use, but it's how we produce. That's the infrastructure that natural gas produces in the US because we have so much natural gas that we're producing, takes it to market. So not everyone may be familiar with the fundamentals of lng. Want to take us through the LNG
- [03:36]
B
question a little bit. Yeah. So I think the short answer is LNG is a way to move natural gas long distances. You can move natural gas through pipelines within North America and other places, but if you're an exporting country like the us, you need to move it to Europe or Asia. And LNG is the way to do that. And Black and Veatch has its own proprietary technology, Preco technology. It's been around for 50 or 60 years, maybe more. It's very conducive to the floating LNG environment and kind of small mid scale module type onshore applications as well. So.
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A
Right. So we have lng. I mean, we have a natural gas which is a gas, and then we compress it and cool it.
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B
Compress it and cool it and move it.
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A
Okay, load it up in carriers.
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B
Load it up in carriers. Yes. And move it across the ocean to other parts of the world.
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A
Right. And then on the other side, they
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B
regassify it and put it back into their pipelines or modes of transportation to deploy out to the users.
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A
Excellent. So they raise the temperature, let it turn back into a gas, and that's natural gas just like on the other side. Are there losses? I always wonder that.
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B
Yeah, it's a boil off gas losses. So depending on the situation, you may do something to capture those and use those if you're able to.
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A
Okay. But it's in that changing state that it happens. Very good. Okay, tell us about some of the facilities that are associated with lng. I mean, we kind of take it for granted that we understand, you know, in this side and out that side. But what really happens?
- [04:59]
B
Yes, and for us, it started kind of in the early mid 2000s, where with our Preco technology, we really found a niche in kind of that floating environment. And back then, there was no floating LNG projects. It was a concept that we were testing and trying to prove, and we realized that our technology was well suited for that application. Obviously, you're on the sea, essentially you have a production plant on a ship at sea somewhere.
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A
Okay. So we're not talking about just moving it. We're actually talking
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B
offshore, potentially.
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A
Yeah, yeah, Floating as opposed to an LNG terminal.
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C
Right.
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A
Okay.
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B
So, yeah. So the benefits of the floating LNG is you're able to access stranded gas fields that you are traditionally were hard to access. You build these facilities in shipyards, predominantly in Asia, where you have a captive set of workers so you don't have labor issues. And to build the facilities, like I said, then you can move these assets based on either geopolitical concerns, which is very relevant today, or just as the world changes and you don't have to mothball your facility, you can essentially pull up anchor and find another off taker. So.
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A
Oh, it gives you that flexibility to be and go where you need to be and go as opposed to being permanently structured on shore and you don't have any choices. You know, in 2001, I got to go to the White House for a temporary assignment. President Bush was developing national energy policy. And then the question was, how many import terminals do we going to have in the US and oh my gosh, it made such an impression on me that over the time, you know, here was a really crazy question, hard question, because that's a huge investment. And how do you predict that? I mean, all you can do is predict for points in time. But that wasn't my job was to come up with a policy for that assumption. So as the years have gone by and we've moved from imports to exports, I'm still fascinated about it, but it was always about a terminal. So when do we start looking at floating LNG?
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B
Yeah, so it was probably in the mid 2000s, early 2010s where we got really serious about it.
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A
So shale was coming up pretty strongly by then.
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B
Yes. And we saw a value proposition as black and beach, obviously doing something new in that capacity. It doesn't come easy. So it was many Years of hard work by many people before me to kind of get to that point. We found a client that was willing to take the leap with us and off we went. The first ship that I was part of was deployed to North Africa. It was built in Singapore. Now those ships, that's been at least a decade or more, those ships are now getting redeployed to other places in the world based on again market conditions and things like that. So it's traditionally, like I said, that would have been a mothball plant if it was built in that part of North Africa. And conditions changed and so now it's has a new Life for another 10 to 20 years somewhere else.
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A
Yeah. So we've got the export terminals that you build and then there's the import terminals on the other side that you and others build. And then we've got the vessels that move the product in between and then we've also got. The terminals are also have the option of being offshore as flng. Okay, good. So those are big investments, takes a lot of money. And there's a time assumption about how long the facility has to last for how much gas you're going to have and move and want to have and move. And to me that says risk. How do people think about risk and are some of those risk analyses or questions translate into other kinds of investments that we have in oil and gas?
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B
Sure. So in the comparison between land based LNG facilities and floating LNG facilities, the risk in terms of schedule, we can get speed to market faster in floating LNG than you can traditionally in land based lng. That's a positive thing. There's risk obviously in terms of where in the world this is getting placed. There's also risk in terms of just the facility itself being on the ocean and the movements and those sorts of technical risks relative to the land based. There's risks in terms of. These are essentially cruise ship size and slightly bigger but just for frame of reference. So you have a lot of safety hazards in a very close proximity where on land base those are generally spaced out. So that's how you mitigate risk on a land base. Offshore you can't do that. So you have to do other mechanisms to mitigate that risk. So those are all very technical risks, but generally the rewards outweigh those risks. Like I said, speed to market you can scale up in terms of matching supply and demand from these vessels relative to a land based plot. Easier. You can keep adding new FLNGs to a gas field if that's how you want to do it. You can do other things like that. There's plenty of, I would say, upside relative to the risk. And like I said in the early 2000 and tens, when we were starting, most companies thought we were crazy. Now we have.
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A
Crazy for what?
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B
Because it was never done before. It was just something different. Flng. It was new. We were the first. Our first unit was like 0.6 mm TPA. Today, we're looking at ships that are approaching 6 mm TPA.
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A
Is that million?
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B
Yeah. Tons per annum.
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A
Per annum, yes. Why do we measure it and why is it a time?
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B
I guess it's just a metric that the industry uses to get a sense of scale.
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A
Oh, okay. So it's defined that way for the industry, and so that's your reference point. Oh, okay. All right. Just like barrels of oil, potatoes. It's a metric. Yeah.
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B
Everybody has the.
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A
Once you learn it, it's like you don't want to change it, you know, because this is how I understand it. No, no, I get that part of it. Okay, so I interrupted and then I got myself. What were you telling us about risk?
- [10:35]
B
Yeah. So like I said, there's always risk with all of these things. Right. We've seen through the floating that we've mitigated those risks. The market has accepted it. Other people are doing it. We have competition now. We are the market Leader. We have 60% of the market in floating. And given the situation in the world today with energy diversity in terms of geography, FLNG presents an interesting use case for that as well.
- [10:58]
A
Yeah.
- [10:58]
C
Hey, it's Marc lacour, editor in chief of Oil and Gas Global Network. We want to give you something free for being a listener to one of our podcasts. It's very simple. Go to YouTube, search for Oggn, then comment on any video. Send us a screenshot of your comment to marketing g g n.com and we will send you a free Oggn hardtop laptop sticker and a temporary tattoo. Once again, super easy. Just go to YouTube.com, search for oggn, comment on any video. Send us a screenshot of your comment to marketing g g n.com we'll put some free swag in your mailbox right away.
- [11:31]
A
If we have Elena's shale gas company and I have sufficient volume, which I don't know what that is. Is there a minimum volume that you ship?
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B
Yeah. So for us, we can go any scale. Like when you talk to the energy majors, they like large volumes. Right. That becomes interesting to them. They're not always all the off takers on these there's other off takers that want smaller volumes than that, so.
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A
Oh, so there is a place for a small company.
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B
There is, yeah. Like I said, we started at 0.6 and now we're approaching 6 in our. Kind of. In our. And we can do anything in between, depending on the market. And you can scale that as one vessel at close to six, or you can do several smaller vessels, depending on the conditions and how you want to match supply and demand in the market for your.
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A
So if I want to do this and I have the money to get a vessel or get my natural gas onto a vessel, do I own the vessel? Do I borrow space on the vessel? How does that.
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B
There's several options you can do. We work with companies that do a kind of a build, own, lease model where they do they take all the upfront.
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A
Yeah, I'm not gonna wanna do it just once.
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B
Okay, Right. So in your example of the shale gas company, you're gonna pull the gas out of the ground, you're gonna move it in a pipeline to the coast that will then go onto our vessel to be processed and liquefied and stored. And then another vessel will come up alongside, almost like a gas station for ships. We'll load, unload onto that vessel. That carrier will then take it to market somewhere else.
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A
Okay, and do people mix gas with other. My gas with someone else's gas or natural gas? No, it's usually your own.
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B
Yeah. You have a dedicated feedstock from somebody somewhere. Right. And then you just clean it, liquefy it, and then move it.
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A
Okay. And do I have to set up my own purchaser on the other side?
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B
Yeah. So it depends on the client. So that in that build, own, operate model, they take care of a lot of that. Usually you have more than one off taker. You'll have an anchor tenant, sort of like a shopping mall. And then you'll have many smaller off takers as well. And that gives them some flexibility and diversity as markets change as well and how they make money.
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A
So you really have a commodity you want to move and you make a deal with someone who wants to buy it. And then you're the person in the middle that makes that happen. Physically, that's pretty simple. I mean, there's a lot of risk obviously, on many levels with many things, but it's basically a deal and a sale and you just keep selling is just another way to sell your natural gas. That's fabulous. So on the other side, buyers contact people like Elena's oil company and Ginger's Natural gas company and purchase the gas. If the buyer purchases from different suppliers, is that gas commingle?
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B
Probably, yes. So I think generally from understanding the question.
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A
Yeah, well, you fix the question because I'm trying to figure out how to, how to.
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B
You, as the shale gas company will sell the gas, put it in the pipeline, you've made your money at that point. You don't know necessarily what's happening after that. The middleman, the LNG company will then process that gas, clean it and sell it to whoever. So they may be collecting gas from many different gas fields, potentially many different players in that side of the market, and then again selling it out to many different. So the root of your question. Yes, it's going to be mixed.
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A
Yeah. I mean, when I started in the oil business, you couldn't export natural gas or oil. Now you can both. And this is just a whole other thing. Of course, I'm a technical person, not a market person. So with respect to risk, it's the physical risk that you're talking about, but you have nothing to do with market risk because it's the deal between the buyer and the seller.
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B
Generally it's a tolling agreement of sorts. There are players, bigger players that are looking at having their own. The majors are looking at having potentially having their own in that sense and handling it a little differently. But general sense, it's a tolling agreement.
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A
Yeah. So LNG in my perspective has been an important topic here at Crawi. Have you been noticing that and what are you hearing? Yes, lng.
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B
I think with, with what's going on in Iran right now, it's obviously top of mind with Qatar being down or down a bit for who knows how long. The US is now at the forefront of that being the major, the major supplier of lng, at least for the short term. And then when you look kind of to the FLNG point in terms of diversity of geography for your sources of gas, you know, I think what you're seeing like with Japan and other countries where they've received all their gas from the Middle east and now it's blocked and they've got a short term challenge, maybe it'll be a long term, who knows? Hopefully not. But you begin to think about where else you should be sourcing your gas from so that when these events happen, you're not completely out of gas when you need it. You can look at other parts of the world and where that is and each has their pros and cons. You can look at FLNG and say, okay, maybe I should have sourced from different vessels across the world where we can get these stranded assets monetized. So that conversation starts to happen, becomes more real. So, yeah, it's very exciting for Black and Veatch because we're hearing a lot about what's next and what we could be doing to help our clients.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And what are some of the different points of view who are speaking about lng? I mean, there's people who are parallel to you, then there's buyers and there's sellers, and there's bound to be a different perspective that they each have. Can you sort of characterize that a little bit? Yeah.
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B
I think that the biggest message I've heard this week is over the last several years, you've heard different things about lng. Is it going away? Is it a short term bridging fuel? What's happening with natural gas in the market? Right. And I think we've all sort of maybe come to a point where we realize it's probably never going to go away and it's going to be there for a lot longer than maybe we initially thought. And it's going to be more than a bridging fuel, I would say. And there's always new technologies to make it cleaner and more efficient and that sort of thing. So to me, it's anchor fuel for what we're trying to do or what's going on in the world and all the energy demands that we have.
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A
So if Russia and Ukraine, if that could all be settled, God, please, soon. And Russian gas became more available or more readily. I don't know what the restrictions are, I can't keep up. But that would have an impact, right?
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B
Yeah, there's.
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A
Describe that a little bit.
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B
Yes. My understanding, obviously when that war started, Europe was heavily dependent on Russian gas. They were weaning themselves off of Russian gas and that essentially meant they have a demand and they needed supply from somewhere else. I think the US has stepped up and essentially supplied that gas. But if that comes back onto the market now, that's just another set of volume of gas depending on the political situation of where that gets deployed. Same thing in the Strait of Hormuz. Right. When that comes back online now, you have a full supply and I think that's generally better for the industry. There's a lot of demand. We want it open, we want the
- [18:12]
A
gas flowing well, because everything is going to be electric or everything is electric and AI is pushing demand because it's going to be more than people posting cat videos or whatever. I mean, they're going to have some real serious questions to ask that take a lot of power, or hopefully we can solve some hard problems. Take a lot of power to run the AI and everybody's going to run. And some people are going to be more efficient at how they pursue it. The questions that they ask or the questions that they want to investigate, and others will be less efficient. And there's definitely a demand that's growing, and no one sees us going back backwards, using less. And your choices for power, I mean, nuclear is still a little bit away. Right. Natural gas here and now. Transition from where we are now to the future, as well as transition to lower carbon economies and having the choice to do that and back up to solar and wind. And yeah, it's hard to make a case for natural gas to not be.
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B
And we're seeing that with our midstream clients as well as they look at kind of adjacent markets to monetize their gas assets. And to your point about the electrification, we need all this power for AI. Somebody asked yesterday if I thought that was going to be a bubble. And I said, maybe not so much a bubble, because I don't see anybody putting their phones down or doing less online than they are today. It's only going to increase. So a bubble? No, not in that sense. But there is a demand for power for electrons, and these gas companies are seeing an opportunity for themselves to play in that space. Like, you're right, there's nuclear, too, but that's a bit. Maybe a longer Runway than where we are today. There's an immediate demand for energy, and natural gas solves that problem.
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A
Oh, and geothermal. Geothermal is in there, too. I think that's a little bit longer, too longer away. But, you know, somebody might get. Have a lot of money and want to invest in it and just open that up for everybody. So when we were talking earlier, you said that one of your favorite things is to solve tough problems. Do you have an example that you can talk about of a tough problem that kind of your favorite. That was really tough and you conquered it or something like that. You have an example for us?
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B
Sure, yeah.
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A
Because the people who listen to this podcast are nerds. What can I say? I was a nerd girl before. It was cool, right?
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B
I'm an engineer.
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A
That's exactly right. So feed that little brain for us.
- [20:38]
B
Yeah. So again, I'm an engineer by. By school. So I realized after getting into engineering and doing work at Black V that what I liked about engineering was solving hard problems. And for the first decade or so, of my career, it was. I'm a structural engineer, so it was building large power plants back then. This was 25 years ago. And that was complex. I enjoyed it. It was challenging. And then as I grew in my career, those challenges didn't seem as hard. And where I kind gravitated to where I am today is the hard problems of taking that technical challenge and learning how to make money at the same time with that bridging the financial and the technical together. And that's what I really enjoy about my job today is these are not easy problems to solve. There's always something. These companies that we work with have rates of return that they're trying to achieve. They're like we talked about risk and so on and so forth. How do you find that sweet spot that gets them what they need and solves problems and ultimately makes black and Veatch money as well.
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A
So you've got the technical risk and then there's the economic risk, and then there's the geopolitical risk and then there's the political risk.
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B
Yep.
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A
Did I leave one out? Is there something.
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B
I'm sure there's more. There's always. Seems like there's never a shortage of risk. Right.
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A
Oh, and then it's going to be unique as to how intense any one risk is in the context of another. And that's just today.
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B
Right.
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A
Tomorrow it'll be different.
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B
And I mean, a couple you left out is we have a labor shortage both in technical skill sets and engineering and other fields both, and then in construction as well. So, you know, there's plus the demand for energy across the world and just the amount of options there are. There's just not enough people to do the work that.
- [22:19]
A
Talk about that whole workforce dependency because you not only need welders and pipe fitters and blue collar engineers and white collar engineers, you also need people who have the skills to manage all of that and be that interface between the investor and the executors, I guess. Talk about that.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah. There's also the gap in terms of the leadership of the construction. I think a lot of that seasoned leadership has retired over the last several years, so that's not talked about enough. But that's a big, big deal in terms of how efficient and how fast you can go when you're building these projects, because there may be a lot of people coming up that are brand new welders, for example, but they don't necessarily know exactly the tools of the trade and that sort of thing. So that leadership is something that we're all trying to grow and be more efficient at in the field and in the office. So there's new generations coming up, but the leadership's retiring faster. And again, there's not enough people going into these trades or in the field or even into engineering now to support this in a robust way.
- [23:21]
A
Well, we see that in oil and gas and field operations. I definitely see that in trying to encourage people. Are you seeing it in. I'm guessing that lng, especially flng, is pretty specialized.
- [23:34]
B
Yes.
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A
So what are some of those unique jobs that put a shout out there to young people?
- [23:39]
B
Absolutely. Chemical engineering. I know I said I was a structural, but I think chemical engineers, we need a lot of them.
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A
Right.
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B
We need a lot of people that want to do construction trades. Mechanical engineering for sure. Electrical engineering, I think those are. And actually even structural engineering as well.
- [23:54]
A
There's a shortage and I tell young people, especially girls, any major you want to have in school, you're going to find a place for yourself in the energy sector because it's all one thing. And we're not going to use less energy, we're using more as we, as we talked about. And so it's. We're not talking about energy transition anymore, we're talking about energy addition because 70% of the world does not live the way that we do. They don't get to come to Sarah Week and do podcasts and they don't get to. And without energy security, abundant, affordable supplies of energy. You can't crack a book open at the end of the day, in the evening time when it's getting dark after dinner or whatever, you can't operate a computer. You have people who have talent and skill all over the world who are never going to realize that potential because they don't have the energy that they need. So we're doing a really, really important thing thing. So it's energy addition because if you have wind, you have sun, you should put those in. You don't. You have to get energy from somewhere else. And it wouldn't be great if everybody could generate their own power and have great jobs and come and spend money. I guess that's the way to put it. Well, Brian, it's been great talking with you. Thank you so much. We're almost out of time. Is there anything else you wanted to share that I didn't get to take you there?
- [25:17]
B
Yeah, I'll just say it's been a great week at Cerro Week. I feel the message that Black and Veatch has been conveying to the market has Been reinforced here at zero week. We are very encouraged and optimistic of the opportunities in front of us and everybody else. Like I said, we are the market leader in flng. We deploy LNG modules, land based as well. We're big in fossil power, gas power and water as well. So yeah, those are all high demand in the market right now. So hopefully people will give us a call and.
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A
Absolutely. Let me take you a little bit. I forgot about the water. I was going to ask you questions about the water. Just do us a real quick little overview of what you do in the arena of water. Water is a security thing, I think.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So it's one of the core solutions we were founded on as a company today. It's really kind of in two parts. It's the municipal water working with the local municipalities and their wastewater and other things that they need. And that's a big demand center because again with AI and data centers coming into the communities, that's putting a stress on those existing infrastructures and how do they upgrade and meet the needs of those new requirements. And then on the other side of it, it's industrial water. So everything we just talked about today has an industrial water component to it. And processing water in some form or fashion. Somewhere in that value chain there's a big industrial water component. So we have lots of experts in that space. Very busy and it's an exciting. And it's for me not traditionally been in that water space myself. Seeing that overlap now with kind of our energy side or our gas side and the water side working together with different clients. It's been pretty rewarding.
- [26:55]
A
Yeah. And oil and gas produce water and the produced water has whatever's in the rock floating in it. And many states. I'm from California. The west has always had water challenges. Some people are looking at taking produced water and transforming it from a waste to a resource and then use it for non, I want to say non consumption, human consumption uses like fire suppression or golf courses or whatever, that kind of thing. And you can take the pressure off of fresh water. So yeah, that's an important contribution. Of course it's. I didn't realize so many industrial processes were all dependent on some element for water. When I said it was a security issue, I was thinking about that, but now I see that it.
- [27:38]
B
And depending on where you're building in the world and what you're building and the water requirement for that, there's a lot of places with water scarcity issues. So there's a dynamic building between, you know, agriculture and energy in a lot of those places. And who's going to win the water battle? I don't think that's been resolved, but
- [27:55]
A
those are real, especially if you go to the notion of the footprint of agriculture and start doing hydroponic data centers, warehouses or something like that, where you really can produce a lot of food safely and perfectly. But it does take water and it's not any fluid and it can't change carrier fluids. It's gotta be water. H2O. So very good. Well, wonderful talking with you, Brian.
- [28:21]
B
Absolutely, Brian, thanks for having me.
- [28:22]
A
Thank you. Brian Mandelbaum, Vice President of Independent Fuel Producers at Black and Veatch. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [28:31]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [28:32]
A
Oh, great. Thank you. Pleasure. This is Elena Melkert, your host for Oil and Gas Upstream. More next time.
- [28:39]
B
Thanks for listening to oggn, the world's largest and most listened to podcast network for the oil and energy industry. If you like this show, leave us a review and then go to oggn.com to learn about all our other shows. Forget to sign up for our weekly newsletter. This show has been a production of the Oil and Gas Global Network.