Living Through the Fall of a Regime

Old School with Shilo Brooks
Episode: Living Through the Fall of a Regime
Date: December 11, 2025
Guest: Dominic Green
Topic: The Leopard by Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa

Episode Overview

In this episode of Old School, host Shilo Brooks sits down with historian, author, and columnist Dominic Green in London for a deep-dive into Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa’s acclaimed novel The Leopard (1958). The conversation explores how the book captures the experience of living through the decline of an old regime, the interplay between personal virtue and institutional decay, and the enduring resonance of these themes in our own time.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Discovery and Impact of "The Leopard"

Dominic Green’s Introduction: Dominic first encountered The Leopard as a teenager in a secondhand London bookstore, drawn in by the lingering reputation of Visconti’s 1963 film adaptation. The book immediately struck him with its world-building and the universality of living through historical change.
- “It was one of those light bulb moments in your reading and thinking life when you read a short novel … and it feels like an entire world … and your world is there.” (Dominic Green, 01:59)

2. The Author and Historical Context

Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa: An Italian aristocrat from a decayed noble family, Lampedusa wrote the novel late in life after encouragement from his wife. After initial rejections and his subsequent death, the book was published posthumously and became a perennial bestseller.
- “The author was dead… It was an instant success to the point that five years later it was a huge, big budget movie.” (Green, 04:20)
Setting: Sicily, during the upheavals of 1860 and the Risorgimento. The region, the “most feudal” and least modernized, becomes a microcosm for the old world facing the onslaught of modernity.
- “It’s set in Sicily, which most Italians would say is the least Italian and least developed part, the most feudal part of Italy.” (Green, 05:17)

3. Characters as Embodiments of Change

Don Fabrizio: The aging prince, modeled on Lampedusa’s own lineage, struggles with the decline of privilege and tries to comprehend unstoppable change.
Tancredi: The adaptive nephew, eager for the new order, who delivers the novel’s iconic line:
- “If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change. Do you understand?” (Read by Green, 09:10)
Angelica and Her Family: Embodying “new money” and social mobility through commerce, in stark contrast to decaying aristocracy.
- “She’s sort of looking at this palace like it’s a museum and running down the hallways and going into all the bedrooms, sort of like it’s Disney World…” (Brooks, 15:17)

4. The Meaning of Transition: Decay vs. Renewal

Eulogy for the Old Order: Green situates the novel as an “obituary for the old order,” focusing on the melancholy beauty of decay rather than the optimism of progress.
- “It’s a novel about the aesthetic pleasures that you get from the decay of the ruling class…” (Green, 12:53)

5. Vice and Virtue among Elites

Aristocratic Vice: Parallels are drawn to Tocqueville’s distinction of aristocratic vice being grand and virulent versus the middling vices of democracies. Notably, a scene of hidden decadence and sexual exploitation is discussed as emblematic of this decay.
- “Those kind of, what we would now call sex toys… are all about power and exploitation and managed cruelty.” (Green, 19:32)
The Role of Noblesse Oblige: Brooks interjects with a meditation on the classical expectations of nobility—privilege coupled with obligation and virtue.
- “…what it means to be noble is to have obligations to others who don’t have the wealth, privilege, class and status, such that your nobility is partnered with responsibility…” (Brooks, 22:42)

6. The Catholic Church: Partner in Power or Hollowed Out?

Father Peroni and Forgeries: The church’s complicity with the aristocracy is depicted, especially in the novel’s symbolic ending where religious relics are exposed as fakes—mirroring the moral and institutional decay.
- “The priests, of course, could have come and checked out the relics at any point… but they’re not going to ask that either.” (Green, 29:10)

7. Parallels to the Present: Regime Decay in Modern Societies

Definitions and Symptoms: Drawing on Aristotle and Marx, Green outlines how regime decay arises from changing material and spiritual foundations, overregulation, loss of shared virtues, and overconcentration of elite wealth and power.
- “Symptoms of decay are everywhere… the decline of the birth rate is the kind of thing which should worry people a lot more than it does." (Green, 36:09)
- “We have had trouble defining what virtue is for the individual and what public virtue is for.” (Green, 40:20)
Contemporary Examples: The decline of public virtue among today’s political and business elites is compared to the self-deception and loss of standards described in The Leopard.
- “A man with, I don’t know, 13 children … can stand next to the President of the United States … and have pretensions to being men of substance…” (Brooks, 41:50)
Cyclical View: Green invokes Vico and Toynbee, stressing that cycles of decline and renewal are recurring features of history, not unique to one age.
- “If you read history and you’re not a pessimist, you haven’t been paying attention.” (Green, 54:25)

8. What Should We Do with Decline?

Resignation or Struggle?: Brooks asks whether such decline is inevitable or if it can be resisted. Green urges adaptation and civic engagement over surrender.
- “We should… prepare for a struggle in which we will have to remake ourselves if we are to survive as the kind of people we knew in the kind of civilization that we want.” (Green, 47:53)
- “A tune up is what’s required, not an embrace of the inevitability of the decay.” (Brooks, 50:31)
Information Age Challenges: Concerns are raised about transferring Enlightenment values to the digital age.
- “Can we sustain that order with a different way of organizing information, which is the digital? The cloud.” (Green, 53:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Essence of the Novel:
“If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.” (Tancredi, read by Green, 09:10)
On Nobility and Obligation:
“What it means is that a nobleman is not noble just by virtue of privilege, wealth, class and status, but… your nobility is partnered with and accompanied by responsibility…” (Brooks, 22:42)
On Elite Corruption:
“Those kind of, what we would now call sex toys... are all about power and exploitation and managed cruelty.” (Green, 19:32)
On Modern Regime Decay:
“If you do not recognize the symptoms of decay amongst yourselves, then you will be overthrown, you will be swept away. And all the things which seem so endowed with transcendental significance … will be exposed as empty if you allow that to happen.” (Green, 43:34)
On the Task Before Us:
“We should...prepare for a struggle in which we will have to remake ourselves if we are to survive as the kind of people we knew in the kind of civilization that we want.” (Green, 47:53)

Timestamps for Major Segments

[01:59] — Dominic Green’s discovery of The Leopard
[03:35] — Life and family history of Lampedusa
[05:06] — Historical context: Sicily and the Risorgimento
[09:10] — Reading and discussion of the novel’s most famous line
[12:53] — Is the novel a lament or a celebration of the new?
[15:39] — New money meets old aristocracy: Angelica and Tancredi
[18:28] — Tocqueville and the nature of aristocratic vice
[22:42] — The concept of “noblesse oblige”
[29:02] — The Church as feudal partner and the exposure of forgeries
[33:43] — Definitions and symptoms of regime decay
[36:08] — Symptoms of decay in the present era
[41:50] — Failure of virtue in elites; contemporary political examples
[47:53] — Should we resist decline? Green advocates adaptation
[54:23] — Syllabus for understanding the phenomenon of decline
[59:31] — Lightning round: books & cultural questions

Tone and Style

The conversation is thoughtful, erudite, and often tinged with melancholy and dry humor. Both Brooks and Green share a skepticism about progress but retain a sense of responsibility for cultural renewal. The dialogue is peppered with historical references, literary parallels, and candid reflections on personal reading habits.

This episode is a rich meditation on how timeless works like The Leopard provide mirrors for both cultural nostalgia and hard truths about adaptation, virtue, and the cycles of history. For listeners seeking to understand today’s anxieties about decline––and what might be required to resist them––it offers both context and challenge.

Old School with Shilo Brooks
Episode: Living Through the Fall of a Regime
Date: December 11, 2025
Guest: Dominic Green
Topic: The Leopard by Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Discovery and Impact of "The Leopard"

Dominic Green’s Introduction: Dominic first encountered The Leopard as a teenager in a secondhand London bookstore, drawn in by the lingering reputation of Visconti’s 1963 film adaptation. The book immediately struck him with its world-building and the universality of living through historical change.
- “It was one of those light bulb moments in your reading and thinking life when you read a short novel … and it feels like an entire world … and your world is there.” (Dominic Green, 01:59)

2. The Author and Historical Context

Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa: An Italian aristocrat from a decayed noble family, Lampedusa wrote the novel late in life after encouragement from his wife. After initial rejections and his subsequent death, the book was published posthumously and became a perennial bestseller.
- “The author was dead… It was an instant success to the point that five years later it was a huge, big budget movie.” (Green, 04:20)
Setting: Sicily, during the upheavals of 1860 and the Risorgimento. The region, the “most feudal” and least modernized, becomes a microcosm for the old world facing the onslaught of modernity.
- “It’s set in Sicily, which most Italians would say is the least Italian and least developed part, the most feudal part of Italy.” (Green, 05:17)

3. Characters as Embodiments of Change

Don Fabrizio: The aging prince, modeled on Lampedusa’s own lineage, struggles with the decline of privilege and tries to comprehend unstoppable change.
Tancredi: The adaptive nephew, eager for the new order, who delivers the novel’s iconic line:
- “If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change. Do you understand?” (Read by Green, 09:10)
Angelica and Her Family: Embodying “new money” and social mobility through commerce, in stark contrast to decaying aristocracy.
- “She’s sort of looking at this palace like it’s a museum and running down the hallways and going into all the bedrooms, sort of like it’s Disney World…” (Brooks, 15:17)

4. The Meaning of Transition: Decay vs. Renewal

Eulogy for the Old Order: Green situates the novel as an “obituary for the old order,” focusing on the melancholy beauty of decay rather than the optimism of progress.
- “It’s a novel about the aesthetic pleasures that you get from the decay of the ruling class…” (Green, 12:53)

5. Vice and Virtue among Elites

Aristocratic Vice: Parallels are drawn to Tocqueville’s distinction of aristocratic vice being grand and virulent versus the middling vices of democracies. Notably, a scene of hidden decadence and sexual exploitation is discussed as emblematic of this decay.
- “Those kind of, what we would now call sex toys… are all about power and exploitation and managed cruelty.” (Green, 19:32)
The Role of Noblesse Oblige: Brooks interjects with a meditation on the classical expectations of nobility—privilege coupled with obligation and virtue.
- “…what it means to be noble is to have obligations to others who don’t have the wealth, privilege, class and status, such that your nobility is partnered with responsibility…” (Brooks, 22:42)

6. The Catholic Church: Partner in Power or Hollowed Out?

Father Peroni and Forgeries: The church’s complicity with the aristocracy is depicted, especially in the novel’s symbolic ending where religious relics are exposed as fakes—mirroring the moral and institutional decay.
- “The priests, of course, could have come and checked out the relics at any point… but they’re not going to ask that either.” (Green, 29:10)

7. Parallels to the Present: Regime Decay in Modern Societies

Definitions and Symptoms: Drawing on Aristotle and Marx, Green outlines how regime decay arises from changing material and spiritual foundations, overregulation, loss of shared virtues, and overconcentration of elite wealth and power.
- “Symptoms of decay are everywhere… the decline of the birth rate is the kind of thing which should worry people a lot more than it does." (Green, 36:09)
- “We have had trouble defining what virtue is for the individual and what public virtue is for.” (Green, 40:20)
Contemporary Examples: The decline of public virtue among today’s political and business elites is compared to the self-deception and loss of standards described in The Leopard.
- “A man with, I don’t know, 13 children … can stand next to the President of the United States … and have pretensions to being men of substance…” (Brooks, 41:50)
Cyclical View: Green invokes Vico and Toynbee, stressing that cycles of decline and renewal are recurring features of history, not unique to one age.
- “If you read history and you’re not a pessimist, you haven’t been paying attention.” (Green, 54:25)

8. What Should We Do with Decline?

Resignation or Struggle?: Brooks asks whether such decline is inevitable or if it can be resisted. Green urges adaptation and civic engagement over surrender.
- “We should… prepare for a struggle in which we will have to remake ourselves if we are to survive as the kind of people we knew in the kind of civilization that we want.” (Green, 47:53)
- “A tune up is what’s required, not an embrace of the inevitability of the decay.” (Brooks, 50:31)
Information Age Challenges: Concerns are raised about transferring Enlightenment values to the digital age.
- “Can we sustain that order with a different way of organizing information, which is the digital? The cloud.” (Green, 53:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Essence of the Novel:
“If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.” (Tancredi, read by Green, 09:10)
On Nobility and Obligation:
“What it means is that a nobleman is not noble just by virtue of privilege, wealth, class and status, but… your nobility is partnered with and accompanied by responsibility…” (Brooks, 22:42)
On Elite Corruption:
“Those kind of, what we would now call sex toys... are all about power and exploitation and managed cruelty.” (Green, 19:32)
On Modern Regime Decay:
“If you do not recognize the symptoms of decay amongst yourselves, then you will be overthrown, you will be swept away. And all the things which seem so endowed with transcendental significance … will be exposed as empty if you allow that to happen.” (Green, 43:34)
On the Task Before Us:
“We should...prepare for a struggle in which we will have to remake ourselves if we are to survive as the kind of people we knew in the kind of civilization that we want.” (Green, 47:53)

Timestamps for Major Segments

[01:59] — Dominic Green’s discovery of The Leopard
[03:35] — Life and family history of Lampedusa
[05:06] — Historical context: Sicily and the Risorgimento
[09:10] — Reading and discussion of the novel’s most famous line
[12:53] — Is the novel a lament or a celebration of the new?
[15:39] — New money meets old aristocracy: Angelica and Tancredi
[18:28] — Tocqueville and the nature of aristocratic vice
[22:42] — The concept of “noblesse oblige”
[29:02] — The Church as feudal partner and the exposure of forgeries
[33:43] — Definitions and symptoms of regime decay
[36:08] — Symptoms of decay in the present era
[41:50] — Failure of virtue in elites; contemporary political examples
[47:53] — Should we resist decline? Green advocates adaptation
[54:23] — Syllabus for understanding the phenomenon of decline
[59:31] — Lightning round: books & cultural questions

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Discovery and Impact of "The Leopard"

2. The Author and Historical Context

3. Characters as Embodiments of Change

4. The Meaning of Transition: Decay vs. Renewal

5. Vice and Virtue among Elites

6. The Catholic Church: Partner in Power or Hollowed Out?

7. Parallels to the Present: Regime Decay in Modern Societies

8. What Should We Do with Decline?

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Further Reading Recommendations (Green’s Syllabus)

Tone and Style

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Discovery and Impact of "The Leopard"

2. The Author and Historical Context

3. Characters as Embodiments of Change

4. The Meaning of Transition: Decay vs. Renewal

5. Vice and Virtue among Elites

6. The Catholic Church: Partner in Power or Hollowed Out?

7. Parallels to the Present: Regime Decay in Modern Societies

8. What Should We Do with Decline?

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Further Reading Recommendations (Green’s Syllabus)

Tone and Style