MeatEater’s Steven Rinella on Lessons from the Wilderness

Summary

Old School with Shilo Brooks: “MeatEater’s Steven Rinella on Lessons from the Wilderness”

Podcast Date: October 9, 2025
Summary by an Expert Podcast Summarizer

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Old School, host Shilo Brooks sits down with Steven Rinella, renowned outdoorsman, author, TV host, and founder of the MeatEater outdoor brand. The focus is on the 1971 novel Wolf by Jim Harrison, a book that profoundly influenced Rinella’s worldview as a writer and as a man. Through a wide-ranging, deeply personal, and often humorous conversation, Brooks and Rinella examine themes of masculinity, wilderness, alienation, and the role of books in shaping character. They also reflect on how nature can be both restorative and demanding, while wrestling with the more troubling elements of the novel and its protagonist.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Steven Rinella’s Journey as a Writer and Outdoorsman

• Starting as a Writer:

  • Rinella’s path was always writing-driven. “My first plan...I grew up totally intending to be a fur trapper. And if that didn’t work out, I’ll be a writer.” (02:43)
  • Despite building the MeatEater media empire, writing is still at his core.

• No Plan B Philosophy:

  • Advises students: “Whatever plan B you have, just kill it now because it’ll be too seductive. You’ll fall into your plan B because A’s are always hard.” (02:44)

• Relationship to Nature and Media:

  • Most of his time is now spent in MeatEater’s media division.
  • Emphasizes his authentic connection to the outdoors as central to his work.

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2. Discovering Jim Harrison & Wolf

• Personal Connection:

  • Harrison was an icon to locals in West Michigan: “He was sort of our guy because he was from there…as aspiring writers, it was kind of like, wow. Like this dude can come out of this hardscrabble place...” (07:09)

• Harrison’s Place in American Letters:

  • Brooks compares Harrison to “American writing royalty,” placing him in the literary league with Cormac McCarthy and Faulkner (05:07)
  • Harrison’s mastery of detail, akin to McCarthy’s, gives his work authenticity.

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3. Breakdown of Wolf: Plot, Form, and Style

• Plot in a Nutshell:

  • “It’s about a guy that grows up in the northern Lower Peninsula, Michigan, in a very poor rural environment…He’s disgruntled, apathetic…has a somewhat Kerouacian journey…returns home…goes into the wilderness…hoping to catch a glimpse of a wolf.” (09:49)
  • The narrative is non-linear, blurring lines between memory, fantasy, and reality.

• Stream-of-Consciousness Style:

  • The novel’s structure is challenging: “It’s a stream of consciousness tradition…You don’t really know when he’s where…the novel kind of flows over you like water.” (13:43)

• Stylistic Brilliance:

  • Rinella stresses Harrison’s style: “If you had to go style, substance with Harrison…Harrison style sits above substance.” (36:14)

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4. Dissecting the Protagonist (Swanson): Masculinity, Alienation, and Anger

• Complex, Often Unlikeable Character:

  • Early likability gives way to disgust: “I started out thinking, oh, yeah, he’s really likable. And then…he’s terrible. And I’m like, this guy is sick.” (15:59)

• Angst and Alienation:

  • Mirrors a “capacity to despise” others (rich kids, outsiders), mirroring Rinella’s own circle growing up.
  • “He’s just pissed…He’s out of the womb, disgruntled.” (12:20, 18:18)

• Masculinity in Crisis:

  • Brooks: “He seems to live in a world where what it means to be a man is not clear to him anymore…his masculinity seeks some kind of ordered outlet.” (20:37)

• Search for Meaning:

  • Swanson’s rootless quest reflects a pervasive sense of meaninglessness in modern life, which Brooks connects to contemporary frustrations in young men. (19:38)

• Predatory Impulse & The Wolf Metaphor:

  • The wolf isn’t just his quarry, it’s a metaphor for his own predatory, restless nature.
    • Brooks: “The fact of the matter is this guy’s the wolf…a predator.” (29:20)

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5. Moral Blindspots & Treatment of Women

• Uncomfortable Content:

  • Both hosts grapple with disturbing sexual/violent content: “You kind of want to throw up…He has committed some irredeemable stuff.” (25:01)
  • Childhood sexual encounters, predatory behavior, and misogyny pervade the novel.

• Changing Perspectives with Age:

  • Rinella notes: “When I first read it…breezed over [the treatment of women]…Now I read it with a little bit of… embarrassment.” (24:13)

• The Problem of Separating Artist and Work:

  • On Harrison: “He got a pass throughout life as a literary figure…for a set of behaviors that I now be like…how could you just constantly humiliate your wife?” (27:20)

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6. Tradition, Family Legacy, and Disconnection

• Respect for Ancestry:

  • Despite his bitterness, Swanson reveres his grandparents and their traditions: “The one thing that the legacy of his family…is the one thing he respects.” (33:26)

• Longing for a Lost Order:

  • Brooks: “In a chaotic world…he orients himself through some attachment to tradition…” (33:36)
  • Both hosts see this orientation as resonant for contemporary readers.

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7. Healing (and Challenges) in Wilderness

• Why Nature Restores:

  • Rinella describes “the arena of consequence”: “When you’re in wilderness settings…you know where to focus your energy…You’re not always being seduced by other possibilities…when you screw up, you’re cold.” (42:31–44:13)
  • Nature offers purpose, beauty, and a sense of order that modern life lacks.

• Danger of Over-romanticizing Wilderness:

  • Brooks points out that real wilderness is often uncomfortable and dangerous—far from the fantasy some imagine. (48:33)
  • Rinella distinguishes between “consumptive” and “non-consumptive” users of nature, advocating for a relationship that is both respectful and participatory. (49:31–52:33)

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8. Nature and Human Identity

• We Are of Nature:
  • “We are an animal. I was always trying to push this idea on [my kids]…not view themselves as outside of…” (54:17–54:44)
  • Encourages viewing ourselves as one way of being alive on Earth, not above other creatures.

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9. First Steps to Engage with Wilderness

• Advice for Beginners:
  • Go and simply observe wildlife; anthropomorphizing a little is okay. (56:05–56:54)
  • Finding wonder in how animals live deepens appreciation for the natural world and life’s complexity.

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10. Lightning Round: Rinella’s Preferences & Recommendations

Notable Answers:

• Writer to Emulate: “McPhee…He can take things that would be utterly boring and make them fascinating.” (59:47)
• Favorite Game/Hunt: “Mule deer and wild turkeys…Their heads change color, they make crazy noises, they’re good to eat.” (60:38)
• Most Essential Gear: “Binoculars. I can’t stand not having binoculars…I look at stuff like across this room with my binoculars.” (65:31)
• Favorite Meat/Produce: “A lot of mule deer…pickled carrots I made out of my garden.” (61:11–61:21)
• Alaskan Wilderness: “Tongass National Forest, the Brooks Range…in Alaska, they’re still trying to describe what’s there.” (61:49)
• Top Nonfiction Recommendations:
  • Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez
  • Coming Into the Country by John McPhee
  • Boone by Daniel Morgan (64:31–65:10)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Writing:

  • “The through line is writing. Every day I do some sort of writing. At some point, I’ll return to having that be my day in, day out thing.” —Steven Rinella (02:18)

• On Masculinity & Purpose:

  • “He seems to live in a world where what it means to be a man is not clear to him anymore…his masculinity seeks some kind of ordered outlet. But…there’s no real outlet for it.” —Shilo Brooks (20:37)

• On Alienation & Bitterness:

  • “He’s out of the womb, disgruntled.” —Steven Rinella (18:18)
  • “There’s just like an angstiness…For all that kind of angst and bitterness… I don’t have an excuse for it either.” (20:03)

• On the Power of Nature:

  • “You are stepping into a sanctuary of sorts…just calm down and just be here.” —Steven Rinella (44:14)
  • “At every moment, every action you take has heft. It has purpose and meaning in an arena of beauty and reverence.” —Shilo Brooks (45:57)

• On Growth as a Reader:

  • “Read this book in your 20s, then read it in your 30s, then read it in your 60s because you change, but the book stays the same.” —Shilo Brooks (27:53)

• On Harrison’s Style:

  • “A writer like no other…if you like inventive use of language, you should check out Wolf.” —Steven Rinella (35:30)

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Highlighted Segment Timestamps

• [03:08–04:57] Rinella’s career path: from fur trapping dreams to writing.
• [09:49–13:43] Plot primers and the stream-of-consciousness format of Wolf.
• [15:59–18:18] Diagnosing Swanson’s “sickness,” dislikable traits, and generational disconnection.
• [23:41–25:53] Examining the book’s troubling attitudes toward women.
• [29:20–31:46] The “wolf” as predator—metaphors around vision and self-understanding.
• [32:20–34:35] Respect for family legacy and tradition as Swanson’s anchor.
• [42:31–45:57] Nature as an “arena of consequence”—what the wilderness gives and demands.
• [49:31–54:44] Wildness: misconception versus reality, human relation to natural world.
• [56:05–59:34] How to observe and learn from wildlife—advice for re-engaging with nature.
• [59:37–65:54] Lightning round: favorite books, animals, gear, wilderness spots, and practical advice.

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Engaging/Insightful Moments

• On Wolf’s relevance:
  • Brooks sees Swanson as an emblem of “our own contemporary spirit and masculinity in our own time,” connecting 1970s angst to today’s “aimlessness of a lot of young men.” (12:27, 19:38)
• Rinella’s admission on wrestling with the book:
  • “It’s hard stuff for me to read. I like this thing of having so much admiration for the writer and the way I used to read it and the way I read it now...” (27:43)
• Philosophical Digression:
  • The conversation becomes philosophical when examining whether humans are other to or part of nature, with Rinella teaching his kids “we are an animal.” (53:51–54:44)
• Practical Wisdom:
  • On gear: “I hate not having binoculars. People think [they’re] for looking at stuff far away, man, I look at stuff like across this room with my binoculars.” (65:41)

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Conclusion

This episode offers a probing, sometimes raw account of what a gritty modern classic like Wolf can teach about the search for meaning, the burdens and gifts of masculinity, and how authentic engagement with wilderness can offer clarity and restoration. Alongside candid reflections on the limits and liabilities of old-school literature, listeners are left challenged to encounter both the wild—and themselves—more honestly.

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Recommended Next Steps:

• Pick up Jim Harrison’s Wolf, especially if you’re interested in American literature, coming-of-age stories, or wilderness writing.
• Explore suggested nonfiction nature writing from Rinella.
• Consider venturing out to observe wildlife, starting with simple, curious observation.

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For more engaging discussions about books, masculinity, and becoming a better man—catch more episodes of Old School every Thursday from The Free Press.

Transcript

[A]

I'm Shiloh Brooks. I'm a professor and CEO, and I believe reading good books makes us better men. Today I'm sitting down with Steven Rinella. Steve is a true Renaissance man. He's an outdoorsman, conservationist, author, TV host, and founder of the outdoor lifestyle company Meat Eater Wolf by Jim Harrison, published in 1971, changed Steve's life. Today I'm asking him why. This is old. Old School is proudly brought to you by the Jack Miller Center. The Jack Miller Center's mission is to reinvigorate education and America's founding principles by empowering professors, supporting teachers, and bringing civic education to millions of students nationwide. If you believe in educating the next generation to sustain American ideals, join [e-mail] Steve Ranella, welcome to Old School, man.

[B]

Thanks for having me on.

[A]

Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Tell me a little bit about you first, because you got Meat Eater, you got your writing. So tell us a little bit about just the enterprise that you're in charge.

[B]

Of and what you do. Oh, yeah, I got, I grew up in West Michigan, as we'll discuss, because the book we're going to talk about, which is set around where I grew up, became a magazine writer, went to graduate school in Montana, became a magazine writer. Out of that, started doing books. Out of doing books, I kind of got wrapped up in the TV world a little bit and then podcasts and eventually sort of was doing a show called Me Eater. And so eventually had a lot of media things that came out of that. Yeah, out of that name. Right. So we would, we were doing cookbooks and narrative things and a podcast network and eventually through this long, circuitous story, wound up with like a outdoor lifestyle, outdoor media brand called Meat Eater, where we have, we have gear companies. We have outdoor gear companies. But where I spend the bulk of my time is in our, in our kind of our media space.

[A]

But you started off apropos today's conversation as a writer, man. Like, you were a writer first.

[B]

Yeah, I'll start and end that way. That was my objective. Like, my first plan, you know, I had to give this commencement address recently and not had to was. Was, you know, the honor. Yeah, I was delighted to give a commencement address recently. I was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And where I went to graduate school, University of Montana, and I had this theme of, like, no plan B, you know, and I was telling people, like, whatever plan B you have, just kill it now because it'll be too seductive. You'll fall into your plan B because a's are always hard. But I didn't do my own plan A. Like I was gonna be a fur. Like, I grew up like totally intending to be a fur trapper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And was way into fur. Yeah. Way into the fur market and everything. And I was like, if that doesn't work out, I'll be a writer. So I eventually, like settled on being a writer. By the time I was finishing up, you know, starting community college, I wanted to be a writer. And that's just everything. Like, that's what I went at. And all the other things are just things that were, to me feel like things that were added onto that or that came about as a result of that, you know, but like the through line is writing. And every day I do some sort of. I do some sort of writing for, for whatever, however it's going to be distributed. Yeah. You know, like that's kind of how I, I think of myself that way. And at some point I'll return to, I'll return to having that be my day in, day out thing. Yeah, yeah, but you got writing, writing, having, writing prose. Like, someday I will return to writing long form.

[A]

Because you got books, you know, that you've done, you've done all kinds of articles, obviously. I don't know how much writing you do for the television shows that you do.

[B]

Yeah, it's very different, man. Like, I can haul through, I can move through that so fast. When I used to just do books, I kind of hated it. Like, I loved doing it. I hated sitting there doing it. I loved having gotten it done. Yeah, a ton of writers say that, man. Very few writers that I know. I used to be buddies with the writer Ian Frazier and he had talked about. He used to imagine himself sitting at his typewriter and chuckling to himself as he wrote. And it wound up being as like, it wound up being. Not like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not like that.

[B]

It's painful. It was kind of miserable. So when I talk about, man, I just want to, like at some point in time I want to go back to just writing only writing long form prose, you know? Yeah. My wife's like, you hated that. I'm like, I know, but I just need to get back to it.

[A]

Well, you know, speaking of that, let's talk a little bit about and introduce people to Jim Harrison and to Wolf. Yeah, man, I had not read Harrison.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

I got to tell you, this book hit me like a train, man. Like, this was his first novel. I mean, I'm going to let you talk about It. But I can tell that you're a writer, because Jim Harrison, in my view, is, like. He's legitimate American writing royalty, this guy. And I have not. You know, again, I'm a fan of, like, Cormac McCarthy, Larry McMurtry, Faulkner Harrison I had not exposed myself to. And he's in there, man. Like, I'm confused.

[B]

I'm the Faulkner of the north.

[A]

Yeah, you have sold me. So let's just. We'll get to him. But let's talk about Woolf. This is his first novel. I'm interested in hearing from you about the first time you read Wolf. Where did you find it? What did you think of it? Because this book affects you, and so I can imagine it's a whole experience reading this book for the first time.

[B]

Yeah, I. I discovered Harrison as, like, a dude from, like, me being a guy from Michigan. He was in my circle when we started. Kind of. When I say we, I'm talking my collective of. Of buddies that I grew up with and hunted and fished with. He. He was like. He was sort of our guy because he was from there. You know, like, Nugent was from Michigan. Yeah, we like Nugent, but not like we liked Harrison or like, you know, we sort of knew that Madonna was, like, kind of from Michigan but meant nothing to us. Right. So it was like Uncle Ted was Nugent. Uncle Bob. Bob Seeger. Right. Didn't mean that much. Like. But Harrison was sort of like this. This thing to be proud of. Yeah. Okay. And he had been writing for a long time, but we were. I was kind of discovering him. Like, I finished high school in 92, so I was discovering him long after he'd been writing for well over a decade in publishing. But it was like. It was like, hot off the press. Do you mean the way we. The way we caught wind of it was hot off the press, but there was this whole body of work already.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like. Imagine you discover a writer, and they're coming out with a book every day. So it was like, Wolf, all this stuff, like, the legends fall stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Farmer and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And. And so it's just, like, you could just get into it. And as a aspiring writer, it was kind of like, wow. Like, this dude can come out of this kind of hardscrabble place where there's not. There's not, like, a literary thing going on there. You know, Like, I now live in Western Montana, and, like, there is a literary tradition. Yeah. In Montana. Like, I went to graduate school in Missoula. There's A literary tradition. In Missoula, where I grew up, you would never meet a writer. You wouldn't hear of a writer. The only writer I had kind of knew about was the guy that wrote the Saturday Outdoors column for Muskegon Chronicle. Like, that'd be like if someone had. If I had a name, a writer. I think his name was like, Bob Butts or something. I'd be like, I guess that guy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But all of a sudden, here was this dude. Yeah. That grew up, like, north of us. And. And in that area, you always think that whoever is a little north use the real hick. Yeah. And it. Right. So he was. So we knew that, like, where I was, we knew the real hicks were in Houlton, but in Houlton, you knew that the real hicks were in Hesperia. Yeah. Right. And it climbed up that part of the state. And so he was like four levels up and being a real hick, but was a literary dude. And. And I used to read it differently because there's a. Harrison, there's a. There's definitely a male fantasy aspect to much of.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we're going to get into that.

[B]

Yeah. Lots of dudes, like, they get divorced, they hook up with younger women. There's this real male fantasy through line. And I don't know, like, now I read it and some of it just is. You know, I'm married, I have a daughter. Some of it's kind of off putting. But at the time, it was. At the time, especially Wolf was. It was a world I didn't know was possible. It was a world I didn't know existed. And I now know part of what spoke to me is that he knew the detail. Like you mentioned Corinth McCarthy. Like, Corinth McCarthy gets the details right. Yeah. And Harrison gets the details right. Like, he knows things you'd only know from having been there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can always smell when a writer doesn't really know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Harrison does his work.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. A guy's got the. He's carrying the gun. He wouldn't have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Like, he doesn't, like, do it right, you know? Yeah. He doesn't do it right. And he never. He never messes up.

[A]

You know, for people who haven't read this, this is a hard one. And we're going to have to work together on this. But what is this book about? Like, if we had to summarize this and we were sitting at a bar for a guy who had never read it and we were trying to sell him on this thing. What would you. What is this thing about?

[B]

It's about a guy that grows up in the northern Lower Peninsula, Michigan, in a very poor rural environment. His ancestors are all Finns that came to work the mines in Michigan, worked lumber camps in Michigan. His grandparents are poor, his family's poor. He's disgruntled, apathetic, kind of like us at that time, sort of hates everyone and strikes off to go explore the country. And he has no money and has this somewhat Kerouacian journey around the country, working day labor, farm labor, and at some point decides to return home and goes into Michigan's Upper Peninsula and into the. The wilderness of the Huron Mountains in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, with the objective of cutting out alcohol, like stopping drinking and hopefully catching a glimpse of a wolf. Yeah, the novel just bounces without any sort of. With. With. The novel bounces through the chronology of his journeys around the country with the chronology of his quest to see a wolf without any sort of indicator. There's no, like, ellipses, paragraph breaks. Yeah. It's just one minute you're in San Francisco, then you're back in this week. You can't even really tell. Like a week or two in the wilderness, and then you're in New York, and then you're back in the chronology of this wilderness adventure. His wilderness adventure is a flop. In fact, what's kind of funny is he calls it a false memoir. There's so many aspects of it. Like his father, Harrison's father, was killed in a car crash. Harrison was blinded in one eye. His protagonist's father is killed in a car crash. His protagonist is blind in one eye. It's very hard to suss the two out. It begins with a foreword that says, I've never seen a wolf. But then you get into a book where he's trying to see a wolf and he's sort of in the foreword, lets you know that it doesn't work out. Yeah. So there's no, like. There's no page turner. Yeah, there's no page turner quality to it. Yeah, yeah. It is a. It is a. It is the sort of mind. It is. It is the mind of a extremely angst filled, lost.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Bitter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Young man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who is just pissed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's why everything and everyone.

[A]

That's why I think the book remains relevant and alive, because it seems to me that it captures something about our own contemporary spirit and masculinity in our own time. And so I want to get into this character who you point out it's beautiful. There's this author's note, and I get into it, start reading it, and I think it's going to be Harrison's author's note to me about the book. And about halfway through the author's note, I'm like, no, this is the main character writing the author's note to. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. Because you gather he's like. He wants to be. The character wants to be a writer. So it's very confusing. You're thinking, home. Is this Harrison, or is this. The character's name is Swanson.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And you realize, oh, the author's note is the Swanson. Right on the front of the book, it says a false. That used to say. It doesn't anymore. Does it still say that? I don't think it's, say, my old copy of Wolf says wolf, a false memory.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Which also. No one knows what the hell that means.

[A]

Which is beautiful. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a false autobiography. But I. I like very much, and I think it's good to sort of tell people this book is a stream of consciousness. The tradition of. And actually, Swanson, name checks. You know, there are places in the book, it's really wonderful, where he talks about the books that he's got with him. Dostoyevsky. He'll be like, I brought Dostoevsky with me. I brought so and so with me.

[B]

The Bible.

[A]

Yeah. He mentioned Stephen dedless from James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. And one of the books he brings with him is Ulysses by Joyce. Joyce was, of course, stream of consciousness. Like Joyce is the master of stream of consciousness coming of age, you know, Virginia Woolf. So it's, you know, Harrison is clearly writing and it's so innovative, taking out to the middle of nowhere this fancy literary tradition with all these highfalutin, you know, James Joyce and Virginia Woolf. And here's this guy from northern Michigan, from the country, doing what they do and setting it in his world. And it's just like, that's when beautiful literature is born. When somebody innovates like that and says, I'm gonna take, you know, the fanciest literary style and I'm gonna bring it out to the country, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna. You know, so, you know, it's really beautiful and falls in that stream of consciousness tradition, which is really disorienting because, as you say, he goes back and forth from, you know, contemporary at the Time Boston, New York, to the woods. And you don't really know when he's where. And so the novel kind of flows over you like water. It's really, really beautiful.

[B]

Not only do you not know where, but oftentimes you don't know if it's him fantasizing or not. Meaning? Let's say he. Let's say he meets someone that he doesn't like. So one minute he's describing this person he doesn't like, but then the next minute he's in a fantasy of doing them great harm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he'd be like, but I could never hurt a person.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Like, oh, so he's not doing that. Yeah, he's.

[A]

He's.

[B]

He's imagining doing that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he sort of gotta check, be like, okay, so we're. We're. Now I understand where we're at. Yeah, yeah. They're not in a fight.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

He's just imagining beating him up.

[A]

That's right. And so as a reader, you gotta do a lot with this novel, but it pays off. But let's talk about what you mentioned a moment ago, which is this main character, Swanson, because there's a way in which this novel reads like a kind of stream of consciousness take on the Catcher in the Rye. Like it's this coming of age and this guy, and he's kind of messed up. I want to kind of ask you to diagnose the affliction from which Swanson suffers. You alluded to this minute ago. This guy's in a bad place, man. So I started out thinking, oh, yeah, he's really likable. And then I started seeing some of the stuff he does, the way he talks, the stuff he does to women. He's terrible. And I'm like, this guy is sick.

[B]

Even the way he treats people and everything. Yeah, he's terrible.

[A]

So what is this that he suffers from? I mean, you mentioned he's got something in his soul that he's going out to the wilderness to get straight with. But what is. What is his sickness?

[B]

You know, I don't exactly know, but I know. I recognize so much of it. Yeah. Like, growing up just returned to a. We. Like me and some of these main guys, dudes I'm still buddies with. Dude, the capacity we had. The capacity we had to just despise rich kids, frat kids, other kinds of. Other fishermen. Yeah. You know, you ever hear the writer, the essayist, John Garrick, he has this quote, like, there's two kinds of fishermen. There's the guys I'm with. And the. Yeah, dude. No one could be in the woods. No one could be in the woods. That was. Accept. Like. Yeah. There was, like, how. What we were doing and how we went about it. And the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just like an angstiness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like. And that's. And. And he. He has that. What? He doesn't. He also has a thing of being that. That's familiar to me of. He. He's like, the generation before him is World War II guys. But he's not. Like, he's not out of the service. Yeah. I was raised by a World War II guy. Like, my dad had me. When he's very old, I was raised by a World War II guy. And I had, like. I had a very complex relationship with my dad. My dad dying was very hard on me. So I see that, like, this guy, like, really struggles with the relationship he had with his dad. There's like a. There's a lack of any kind of, like, emotional connection. It's like your father is more like just a figure that you choose to emulate or not. Yeah. Not instruct. Doesn't instruct. Yeah, Right. The protagonist's father and sister die in a car crash. But you realize that long before that happens, he's already intolerable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He talks about his mental scar tissue, and you go like, well, that must be that. But no, it's because it was previous to that. It's just like he was out. He's out of the womb. Disgruntled.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like an environmentalist, but he's disgruntled. Yeah. He's disgruntled against soldiers. He's disgruntled against just people in restaurants minding their own business. It's just like. I don't know.

[A]

And the source of that is so puzzling to me.

[B]

Poor poverty.

[A]

Yeah, that could be part of it. You know, there's a certain meaninglessness to his life. I mean, is he searching for purpose? Is he searching for. You know, because there's these flashbacks from the modern world in the city. In New York City where you and I sit right now, or Boston. And it's this sort of, like, hedonistic, live life for the pleasures of the moment thing. And on the one hand, he seems attracted to that, but on the other hand, he seems to see the cheapness of that also at the same time. And, like, can't reconcile those two things. And I think about the kind of aimlessness of a lot of young men in our own time who are frustrated like you point out, but who are searching for something, searching for purpose, searching for meaning in a modern world which has given them a kind of cheap food to eat, you know, digital consumption of quick content and that sort of thing. And this guy is obviously, you know, this is a different era and a different time, but it's fascinating to me that the same emotions in the heart of a man emerged then as are emerging now.

[B]

It's funny because you could read it now, you could set it now, and you'd read it as, like a commentary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the digital landscape. Or you could read it now and put the protagonist as a guy coming out of the war on terror.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And coming home to America, to an American life that doesn't live up to the expectations they had about coming out of the service. And you'd be like, okay, that would explain this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then him striking off, you know, in the. The Eisenhower age or whatever. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what pushes them, but I don't know. Like, I don't have anything for all those feelings that. That, like. For all that kind of angst and bitterness that I felt toward other. Otherness. I don't have an excuse for it either. Yeah. Maybe it's like somehow born of. Of being in a. You know, being born into a situation where you realize things aren't going to come to you easily. I don't know what it is.

[A]

You know, it's almost like whenever. Whenever I think about this kid and the way things are going for him, he seems to live in a world where what it means to be a man is not clear to him anymore. In other words, he's looking for some outlet. A lot of times he has these power fantasies. He'll be like, man, I wish I was on Wal street, and I could, like, command people, and I want to be in charge of something. So he's got this kind of drive to be in charge, and yet he's just some anonymous guy. And that frustrates him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, he doesn't. He's not in charge of a family. He seems to see the goodness of a family. But at the same time, he also has this kind of longing to just conquer women, to just, like, stand over them and be like, I conquered you, and now I'm moving on to the next one. And so it just seems like his masculinity seeks some kind of ordered outlet. But in a modern world where he's not out in the wilderness, I mean, he's in an office building. He's not. He doesn't have a family. He's wandering the landscape, that there's no real outlet for it. And so it's like the whole story is about something in him as a man searching for an ordered end that he can't find. And so he just falls into self destruction, you know, something like that.

[B]

And, you know, when he has fantasies of that he's a Wall street guy or he's a tycoon, the fantasies usually end because they usually end with a thought. And then. Yeah, I would be able to make him pay. Do. I mean, like. Like, if he's in a position of power, he would be able to get his vengeance. Yeah, but you don't know what he's avenging. Yeah, but it's always like. And then. Yeah, I would be able to squash him. Right, right. There's times. And he acknowledges his own contradictions. He is a he. He's. One thing that's clear about him is he is a conservationist and environmentalist. Okay. And he has fantasies of almost like monkey wrench gang. He has fantasies of like, eco terrorism. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Sometimes he recognizes his contradiction where he's driving down a logging road and the logging road is washed out. And he says he's bitter that the loggers didn't fix the road. I wish they didn't use. He's mad both ways.

[A]

Let's talk about the way that anger manifests itself in these bizarre. And I think for the contemporary reader, you got to address this. These bizarre, you know, erotic, romantic things. So, I mean, just to give people a warning, like, this guy really treats women poorly. I mean, he really treats them like objects. And you kind of. And we'll come back to Harrison later, but you kind of got to wonder, was. Is that part of Harrison's life too? Like, was he.

[B]

Yeah, I mean. Yeah, he was. Yeah. A chronic. Like, you know, he was a chronic womanizer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. He probably, by being born when he was and dying when he was, probably escaped a level of condemnation that he would have definitely have got.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I first read it long ago. I've read it three times when I first read it, just kind of breezed over.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't even recognize it as unusual. Later I read it and I'm like, God, that feels mighty dated. When I read it ahead of our conversation over the last couple days, I read it with a little bit of like. A little bit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Almost like embarrassment, you know, like, wow. And again, so setting aside the death of the author thing, this is a theme In Harrison's work, all over the place. Yeah. Is sometimes. It's not always like this kind of, like, violent thing, but there's a thing like divorce dude, you know, hooks up with daughters, friends. Yeah. There is a constant older dude picking up young women.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, just to put it out there in this book, one of the women he has a tryst with has got to be 14 years old, I think. I mean, that's, you know, that's child molestation. Like, that's. Yeah. I mean, it's a bad. It's a bad situation. And. And not just her, but there are women who. I mean, there are scenes that seem like they might be almost like rape, like unwilling women. Then you start to see, this is messed up.

[B]

Yeah. It's really.

[A]

I have a daughter. I think you have a daughter. Right. And you're like, man, I would kill this man if he ever showed up on my doorstep. You know what I mean? Like, this is a bad situation. And so I don't know how that is going to strike people today. And my own. If I were teaching this in a classroom, you know, I would encourage students to try to get at what is going on in the soul of this guy. Like, we can talk about how wrong he is, and he is wrong to do these things to women. And people should. Should know. You get to the end of this book and you don't. At least I didn't just love this protagonist anymore. I. I wanted to, but I was like, man, this guy has committed some irredeemable stuff that, like, you just cannot. You just can't conscience that stuff. And so that's a. That's a testament to the beauty of Harrison as a writer, how he makes you want to love the guy, but you also kind of want to throw up, you know?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But I would tell the students, let's try to figure out what's going on in this kid's conflicted, messed up psychology that makes him think that this kind of erotic psychic discharge is good. You know, and there are times when he does it and he knows that it's not good when he just, you know, this kind of thing. And so I don't know how you. What you think about when you think about that, but it just occurs to me that Harrison is a poet, is a man who is, you know, this goes back to the classical world. A very erotic man, a sensitive man, a man who sees beauty in the world, in all things, whether it's sexual beauty, the beauty of the wilderness, the beauty of a river in the Forest, the beauty of a wild animal, all kinds of beauty. And so when you get a soul like that, it's going to come with some hang ups like this. And we just best try to figure out this type. Condemn it, but try to figure it out as part of the human condition. You know, he.

[B]

I know. That's why, that's why it's become so difficult to, to separate the two again. Like, I keep bringing this up like Swanson and Harrison becomes so difficult because he kind of got a. He. He got a pass. Yeah. Throughout. He got a pass throughout life of, of as a literary figure. He got a pass throughout life of like a, like a set of behaviors that. A set of behaviors that I now be like, man, how could you like just constantly humiliate your wife?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. It's. It's very, it's. It's hard, it's hard stuff for me to read. I, I like this thing of having so much admiration for the writer and the way I used to read it and the way I read it now, and it's hard for me to even picture how did I used to read it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, how would I have read this the first time and not been like, what?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's a really.

[B]

But I'm like, I came away when I was young, I came away from the book like, this guy's cool.

[A]

I think that's a really good point of inquiry because one of the things, you know, I often say about books is, and I encourage young people, you know, read this book in your 20s, but then read it in your 30s, then read it in your 60s because you change, but the book stays the same. And so books renew themselves over time because they become new to you as you grow. The words on the page are always the same, but it's like you're reading a different book. You read this at 25, you read it at 55 and you're like, man, that. I don't. That's a different thing.

[B]

The only. There's only one part that shifts and we've already focused on it. It's like I remember his very simplistic view of poor people. Wealthy people. Yeah. Poor people being good, wealthy people being terrible. Yeah. Like, I'm like, oh, I remember that. Having that simplistic view. And I'm still okay with this guy. His perspective. I remember that perspective. I remember that, like, bitterness, that jealousy. Yeah. That manifested As a sort of, like, you're, like, jealous. But what that triggers in you is to condemn it. Right. That still is fresh. Like, I still remember all that. His view toward the natural world, his love of fish, his love of animals, his love of fishing. Right. The questions he brings up around hunting. Like, I remember all that. That feels right. The only part that trips me up now, the only part that trips me up, the part that, like, gives me a sort of, like a little revulsion, is his treatment of. In view toward the women in his life.

[A]

And you got to wonder how conscious Harrison is of that. I kept thinking about the title, Wolf. The Wolf. I mean, you could say, okay, yeah. The premise of the book is this guy who's stuck in cities, meaning, you know, has a meaningless life, is going out to find something, and we need to talk about this in the wilderness that he sees in a wolf, it's like, contained in the wolf. But at the same time, the fact of the matter is this guy's the wolf. And I mean that this guy's a predator. Like, I mean that in the sense that you're talking like he's a predator, you know? And so I think Harrison kind of knows that this guy is a bit of a creep.

[B]

That. That connection.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't make that connection before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there is a thing I knew right around the time I was discovering Harrison. I remember cutting a wolf track in Michigan's Upper Peninsula when there weren't that many around. There's a ton of now, but at that time, you know, I remember seeing a wolf track in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and being blown away by it. And in there, he's just hoping to find a track.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like that, you know, I mean, like, all that, like, anger about the destruction of nature, the destruction of habitat, people building in places they shouldn't build. Like, all of that is. Is. I guess that's where always where my, you know, where my focus was. And I recognize it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know, this guy with that anger. And so, you know, he's. He's got the predator, but he's also a lone wolf. I mean, he. You know, he's not a pack animal the way wolves often are. And you mentioned. I mean, you talked about he has this messed up eye, this character does I suspect that this is Harrison. You know, I understand Harrison had a similar difficulty. The guy wants to get plastic or some kind of surgery on the eye in the book to fix it, and it's messed up and it doesn't quite work. And I would say, this is why I think Harrison is conscious of what he's doing. The guy doesn't see correctly. And I mean that in the most literal sense of the term. This guy's view of the world is messed up. He doesn't see straight. He doesn't have 2020 vision. Now I'm speaking in metaphor, but do you see what I mean that Harrison acknowledges? There's something about this guy in the way he literally sees the world that's metaphorically manifested in the fact that he's got this wandering eye that doesn't allow him to perceive quite straight.

[B]

Every time he looks at himself, anytime he catches himself in a mirror, anytime he imagines someone looking at himself, the number one thing he brings up is he's got a. He calls it his googly eye.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, yeah. So like if he any. He puts himself in the shoes of someone else looking at him. Here's a guy with an eye, like with a googly eye and they don't know what he's looking at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And there's a self loathing in it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he wants to get it fixed. It doesn't work out. He kind of wants to kill the guy that was going to fix it. Even later. He's like talking about maybe getting it fixed somehow, you know, another way. And then if I had it fixed, then I'd have it made, you know? So, yeah, he's aware of it.

[A]

He wishes his vision was like clear, but it's not clear. He can't see. And this leads him down all kinds of roads.

[B]

The one thing that you find, like, as much as he disrespects everything, he also has this. He has a ton of respect for the generations before him of his family. Like massive respect for his grandparents. In fact, it ends. It begins and ends so beautifully. It ends so beautifully. Yeah. He leaves his. His quest to find a wolf ends. He comes south ways to his home area. Can't bring himself emotionally. Can't bring himself to go to where he grew up. Yeah. But pays his grandma a visit.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And goes in and talks to his grandma. Yeah. Takes just very quickly describes how his grandpa used to use. He used to use draft animals. And he finds an old bridle and he's gonna try to throws it in his car. He says he might bring it back to useless life with some saddle soap. And then comments, I didn't kiss my grandma. Maybe she kissed me as a child.

[A]

Then it ends.

[B]

Yeah. This last word in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like He. That's one thing. That the legacy of his family.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is the one thing he respects.

[A]

Yes. I agree. It seems like in a chaotic world for him, and this is a lot of young men in a world without order, in a world of spiritual chaos, he orients himself through some attachment to tradition that there's. That when the world makes no sense, and this is a very small c. Conservative view, that when the world makes no sense, we can orient ourselves by a return to tradition, the legacy of our families, the rituals of our families, the moral principles on the basis of which we were brought up, and the difference between right and wrong and these kinds of things. And he kind of does that.

[B]

Like, there was a time and it was a good time. Yeah. When you, like, raised a pig.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And smoked the hams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you kept animals and you raised crops to feed those animals, and you had. No. You had a cash economy of $1,000, and, like, that's over and nothing is good anymore.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Therefore, I will lay waste.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right, right. That's a lay waste to everything around me.

[A]

Yeah. The valuelessness of the modern world and a kind of longing for tradition and therefore a destructive impulse, because the modern world doesn't live up to the nobility of the tradition in which you were raised. You know what, for you, makes this book so sort of endlessly magnetic? You said you would return to it three times in your life. What do you see in it that is just sort of a wellspring of nourishment and wisdom?

[B]

The writing style, him being a stylist. It. You could do this book badly, and it would just be bad. The reason we're talking. The reason we're talking about it. I don't think we're talking about it. I don't think I've read it three times. Because of the message. Yeah. It's just he is. He's a stylist. He is a masterful writer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if buddies of my buddies that I hang out with that don't really care about literary style, and I have many friends like that, I would never recommend this book. But if someone is, like a Cormat McCarthy fan and what they love about Corma McCarthy is his. His style, how he writes, I would say since you like that kind of thing and you like very inventive uses of the language. Yeah. You should. You should check out Wolf. It's like he's a writer. Like, a writer like no other. Yeah. And I think that if you had to go style, substance with Harrison, there's a Lot of Harrison fans that would. That would strongly disagree.

[A]

Yeah, they're going to come out after.

[B]

You if you go style, substance. Yeah, I think Harrison style sits above substance. Yeah, yeah. He is a. The first sentence, if you notice, the first sentence is one and a half pages long.

[A]

Yeah, I did notice, and it was very disorienting.

[B]

Very disorienting. But it's not all that way.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. With respect to the substance, the one thing I'll say about it that was at least most attractive to me was I sort of situated this in two camps. And I wonder what you make of this one is the long line of coming of age novels. Like, you know, I mentioned Catra in the Rye earlier. I think of F. Scott Fitzgerald's this side of Paradise. You know, we talked about. I mentioned James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. I think Harrison is channeling Joyce. So I think for people who are either coming of age now or who are interested in coming of age novels, this does have a rightful place in that tradition, especially of American literature. The second substantial contribution I see this novel making, and I want to ask you about this, is Harrison is taking his place in a long line of American wilderness writers, the greatest of whom would be probably Ernest Hemingway, you know, a man of letters who's also a man of the wilderness. That's a type. It's increasingly rare. I think you're probably this type, Jack London, a man of letters who's also a kind of man of the wilderness. Harrison, Edward Abbey. There you go. Harrison has a rightful place among such writers.

[B]

And so I think, you know, comments on them often.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In his essays.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like haunted, obsessed, whatever. With Hemingway.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And so I think for people out there, if you have a coming of age fascination, I myself do. Or you just think that the long line of wilderness writers, men of letters, who are men of literary merit, and you haven't heard of Harrison, you gotta get ahold of this guy. Because this guy, you know, like I said I had. I was not familiar with him and it blew my mind.

[B]

Yeah, we, like, we knew we loved him first and foremost because of his. Because he was a fisherman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was like he was one of us. Cause he was from where we were from. But, like, if there was no woods in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wouldn't have been our. You know, I mean, I wouldn't even have never even heard about it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know. But again, what I see now is just you know, he's just. He's an incredible. He's an incredible writer.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

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[A]

Do you have a passage that you, you know, want to read for us and highlight and talk about?

[B]

Sorry, I gotta grab my glasses. So I read it real clear.

[A]

Probably didn't need those the first time. You read it, though.

[B]

Okay. I'm jumping. I would not jump into page 32.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He. He's out in the woods, and he's lamenting environmental destruction over the years. And he says, of what use. So he's lamenting the. The. The good. All the great places that have been despoiled by man, destroyed by man's development. And he's describing Michigan's Upper Peninsula as being a place where the landscape was just kind of lucky to have been left alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there wasn't enough to draw from it, so no one has gotten around to destroying it. And he goes on to say of what use was a mountainside blotched with chalets and ski people? Certainly the most insensate group of Chi Chi morons I'd ever met. They had their right, as did the lumber and mining and oil interests, but I did not have to like them for it. There was an amusing irony in the fact that the land would be fucked up before the blacks would have the leisure to enjoy it. One more piece of subtle genocide. So it's just like he's lamenting. He's lamenting environmental destruction. Yeah, he's mad at skiers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's mad at chalets. Then he's sort of in a spot where he's, like, bitter about race relations in America. But then at other times in the book, he's saying, like, horrifically racist stuff about the people he meet. It's just. Nothing is good. Yeah, it's. Nothing is good. Yeah. And now and then you do find the areas that don't contradict. The areas that don't contradict is, like, the beauty of a trout. Yeah. He never questions the beauty of a trout. Yeah. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He never questions, like, being in the woods.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's never bitter toward everything else he encounters. He will find some Problem with it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, say more about that. You know, I wanted to ask you. We talked a lot about the guy and the kind of chaotic life he leads, but as you're talking about now, his adventures in the wilderness provide him with the kind of restorative opportunity to make sense of the world. How does the wilderness do that? Like, what is it? And I mean in your own life. I mean, in his life. How can a relationship with the natural world provide some kind of healing and restoration to a soul like this one? What does it do?

[B]

It sounds simplistic to say that it makes things very simple.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When he's out camping and just trying to struggle to stay warm, struggle to find his way, he's in an environment, I've called it in the past, like he's in an arena of consequence, meaning when you're in wilderness settings or when you're in some kind of physical hardship in the outdoors, you know where to focus your energy. There's a lot of things you have to pay attention to. There's things that take up all your space, and you're in a visually stimulating environment, and there's just not always a bunch of room to have your mind wander off. And you're not always being seduced by other possibilities that you might find around the room. It just gives you, like, an area to focus. Right. And some people can't focus in that environment because they don't find it inspiring. But if you're inspired about, like, what's up ahead? I saw a lake. I'm dying to get to the lake. I want to go check the mouth to see if there's fish there or whatever. It's like this. This cascading series of questions that you're asking and problems you're trying to solve. And it's engrossing. Like, I fall into. I like to bring my kids into that environment where it's just. We're out. We're reacting to what's going on to us. We're in a. We're in a confined. A sort of confined sphere. And when you screw up, there's a price to pay. Yeah. Like when you screw up, you're cold. You know, when you. If you step through bad ice and get your feet all wet, it sucks. You're going to be crying.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, and it's like that arena of consequence. And so it is mind clearing. And also, as he recognizes and I recognize, there's a physical beauty to it, and there's a thing like you're in a place that you honor. And I think people might find that feeling, and they might find that feeling in a church, they might find that feeling in a museum, they might find that feeling in a memorial, wherever they go. But if you're of the mind that nature is honorable, you are stepping into a sanctuary of sorts. And it's like you have to pay attention. Like, why do people walk into certain buildings and whispers. Yeah. You know, I tend to talk quietly. Much more quietly when I'm outside. I don't like people making loud noises around me. It's like, you know, let's just calm down and just be. Yeah. Here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And that brings it out for him. And also, he's. He's an addict. And so I think part of him going there is he's going to a place where he can't find his vices. There's no women for him to exploit. He has some cigarettes, but at one point buries them in a hole and, like, purposefully tries to destroy them to the point where he won't be tempted to come back and get them later. And doesn't bring booze. He wants to just not have any booze for a week. And so he has to go where none of it's available. Yeah. And then he has to make a quest for himself that he know he can't achieve.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's like, I want to see a wolf. I never will, but I'd like to see a wolf. So that gives him a sort of. Gives him a quest that he acknowledges right up front. Ain't gonna happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he's stripped of all the things he hates about himself.

[A]

Yeah. No, that's a. That's a really beautiful way to put it. And I think in a certain way, it kind of squares the equation, because what he finds, as you have put it in the natural world, is at every moment. You said consequence. I was saying earlier, meaning and purpose. Like, you see the lake, you go to the lake, you mess up, and you step on thin ice, and you're in trouble. And so at every moment, every action you take has heft. It has purpose and meaning in an arena of beauty and reverence. So what I mean is, the two things that he does not get in the real world, namely, a life of purpose. He goes out to the wild, and every step you take has a purpose. And you better frigging watch out. You know what I mean? The word of the day is insensate. This word comes up in a passage that Steve read when the main character in Wolf is out in the wilderness and sees a bunch of skiers on a mountainside and refers to them as certainly the most insensate group of shishi morons I'd ever met. I love this and it's hilarious. And sensei has a couple of meanings. It can mean literally, you know, lacking sensation, physical sensation. You can't feel things right by way of your body. But its deeper meaning is lacking what you would call emotional sensation, lacking receptivity to the beauty profundity of the world around you. The analog to that this was written in 1971. The analog to that in modern times would be the insensate person who's standing in Yosemite in a beautiful location, can't get enough of taking selfies of themselves, get in the frame, totally oblivious to the natural beauty of the world around them, totally oblivious to the fact that other people are there marveling at this beauty, but just is standing there in an insensate way, grinning to the camera.

[C]

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[A]

You know, the other aspect of what you're saying and in a way the danger of this novel, and I want to ask you about this, is you can over romanticize a relationship to nature. Like people can have this grand, you know what I mean? I've watched a lot of your videos and let me tell you, some of the stuff you do is not romantic. Like you're out there, it's. It sucks. Like it's not. So you sitting in your chair at home listening to us talk or reading Wolf, you can be like, ah, the wild, you know, the great mountain, you know, this whole fantasy world. But when you get out there in it, it's a different situation. And so I wonder if you might, you know, speak to the dangers of. And I'm sure some of your own listeners who like to watch you on TV like to see your have this view of the natural world that's not quite in keeping with what it's like to be out there. The dangers of over romanticizing that if.

[B]

You get deep in the world of wildlife conservation and you get deep into the world of human relationships and nature and things, you'll come across this term where they talk about where people try to bifurcate people who go out into nature, they bifurcate them into consumptive users. And this is a term a consumptive user and a non consumptive user. And usually it's done with a sense that the consumptive user is a less than. Than the non consumptive user. And a consumptive user is someone like me, like Harrison, whatever, that would go out and hunt a bird and eat it, catch a fish and eat it. Or they would go out and they're like consuming something. They're using something from the wild. And when I talk about this and I view it, there's like, there's a view of nature, a view of wilderness as being a thing that is best just observed. It's. It's Yellowstone park seen through a window. Right. Okay. And that is the way we're supposed to behold it. Like, we don't belong there. Our presence there destroys it. There's something like completely incongruous about the fact of wilderness coexisting with a human, like in their mind. Right. It's the other that's usually perspective held by people who came from outside of nature. They find nature. Later in life they discover there's this thing, wilderness or nature, however you want to define it. They discover it and they're like, I better not spoil that with my presence. Right. And I don't want people touching it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then there is a thing of people brought up in it, brought up in a legacy of people utilizing the landscape. He talks a lot about coming from loggers and coming from miners. Right. Coming from fishermen who have a different relationship with it, where it's like a place you live in and live around. Right. And maybe use things from. Right. When I think of someone having a. When I think of someone having a kind of naive view of it or a wrong view of it, it usually is someone who views that humans and nature are incompatible. You know, And I view it that there is a compatibility. It can be a place where you can go and make a living and do things and it can be harmful to you. Right. There's like a viciousness to it. And you can't just exploit it. Like, you can't just utilize it. You have to take care of it. But there's more of a relationship, you know, and he has that view. Like he's out on the land being in it, utilizing its resources, getting beat up by it. And it's not just like this. This beautiful thing off yonder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I'm never going to Feel right, you know, it's never going to impact me.

[A]

Yeah. You just give an articulation to a really profound philosophic question. And it's sort of amazing. I do a lot of teaching of classical and modern philosophy. And one of the great debates, just great human questions are, is Hume. Are human beings other from nature such that nature is hostile to them and the world in which we find ourselves is not an adequate or good home for us? In other words, we have to fight nature to get along? Or are we pieces of nature such that it's not us and it. We spawn from it? And therefore the world in which we find ourselves far from being hostile to us, is a provident place? Nature provides for us. Meat, food and these sorts of things. And what is the proper orientation of man to the world in which he finds himself? Hostility. Nature has to be beaten back. We have to create technology because it's hot and we need air conditioning and nature is so harsh and there's all these diseases and we need to inject ourselves with pharmaceuticals because nature is so mean and it gives us cancer. Or is it. No, no. Nature provides what we need. It's not hostile. And it seems like you're taking the view that nature is not in a way other from us. We're a piece and a part of it, and it's a provider for us.

[B]

I've in. In raising my kids, I've tried very hard to speak of us. Just one of many ways I try to teach them that we are of nature. Yeah. We are an animal. You know, I will say to them, when they're really. When they're really little, I would always say this. I'd be like, animals like us, for instance. Yeah. You know, like some animals, like take humans, they will blank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Other animals might blank. Like some species have a reproductive strategy where you invest a ton in offspring. Like. Like elephants will do that, bears will do that, people will do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I'm always trying to, like. I was always trying to, like, push this idea on them to not view themselves.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As outside of. Yeah. But I mean, I kind of wanted them to think to. To sort of view themselves more as an example.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of ways to be alive on earth.

[A]

Yeah. In partnership with nature. Yeah.

[B]

And. And not that you're, like, so much better than. Yeah. You're not outside of it. It's not dirty. It's not that you're clean and it's dirty. You know, I mean, it's not like. Like if I. I wanted them to be that. If I grab something. Like, if we're outside and I take something, I go to put it in their hand. Like, I want them to hold their hand out and not be like, what the hell is that? Like, if I pick something up, like, if I pick up a snake that doesn't. That's not venomous, and I'm like, it's fine. I want them to be like, okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they do. Yeah. And if I say, eat that. You should try to eat that. They'll just eat it. Yeah. So in some way, I feel like I've had some success of being like, you're not better than any of this, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a way to be dumb and a way to be smart, but, like, this stuff isn't dirty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not dangerous. It's not dirty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just. It's. It's perfect. Yeah. You know, and I want them to feel like that when they're outside.

[A]

Let's say there's somebody out there listening to this and they've seen some of your videos. You know, maybe they read wolf, maybe they haven't, but they kind of get the gist of what we're saying, and they want to begin to reengage with the wilderness. What should they do? First steps? First step to begin to reengage, to begin to get some of those benefits.

[B]

Just try to go. I love to observe wildlife and just observe wildlife. And I also don't mind when I observe wildlife. I don't mind anthropomorphizing it a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, observe it. What are its motivations? Why does it do what it does? I love that. I did a make a wish thing with a kid the other day, and we just went up to catch a cutthroat trout. But mostly we just looked at how cutthroat trout in a little stream kind of conduct their business. Yeah. You know, they get in little disputes with each other, and they chase each other around. They find shade, you know, they come out of the shade as the sun goes down, and it's kind of like, you know, and you just get this feeling of, like, look at this, like, world. Yeah. And these. I hate to say it, but this world and these, like, personalities.

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[B]

That. No one. Like that. Not no one. That most people just. Just don't pay attention to. Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah. Like, we trip out. Like, we trip out about whatever. We trip out about some new phone technology. Right. But then you go ask the question, like, here's A. We were above a 40 foot waterfall, but there's trout above the waterfall. Yeah. And it's like, how are they here? How long have they been here? You can't swim up this stream. What are they doing here? Yeah. You know. Yeah. And this place is winter, seven months out of the year. Yeah. And that little thing that's this long could be years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that's a trip. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, man. And you know that, that calls to mind. There's a video of you, I recommend everybody, where you're doing just what you said with beavers. You're talking about trapping beavers and you and this guy are standing on ice and you're talking about how the beavers go into these, like, caverns that they make and then they go under the ice and you're pointing out all the bubbles in the ice where the beavers.

[B]

They exhale.

[A]

Yeah. Because they exhale and you're like, there's this whole beaver world and it's winter all the time and they hardly ever come up and we can tell that they're here. And you're doing what you're talking about with the trout, where you're talking about this whole life that these personalities have and this kind of like beaver city, you know, sort of a thing. And so you're saying the first step to finding some of that restoration, it's not to go out and hunt necessarily. It's to just go observe and see.

[B]

Observe the beauty, the purpose. Harrison makes a comment. Wolf. He makes a comment about that he doesn't have much use for outdoor writers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Says the only thing they know about animals, the only thing they know about fish and animals is how to kill them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And that's one of the many gripes he has with one of the main things. But that, but that resonates because, like. Yeah. Observation. Yeah. I remember a long time ago going to this lecture about a snapping turtle researcher and there's this question of, like, when the, when a lake freezes, how does the snapping turtle ever breathe? Tooth. Yeah. He can't put his head up in the air.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he found that they go down in the muck, way down the muck, and they push themselves up and. And put methane bubbles out of decomposing muck. They send methane bubbles and the methane bubbles go to the ice, but the CO2 permeates the ice and leaves a bottle, a little bulb of oxygen there. So a while later, that turtle will go up and sip that bubble.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From under the ice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when you like like check something like that out and. And see it. I just. It transforms your sense of just what you're doing. Yeah. You know, there are so many ways to make a living.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it just. It sets you in a different place just to observe, like. Yeah. How do these things comprehend time?

[A]

Yeah. Well put.

[B]

Well put.

[A]

Lightning round. Time for a quick lightning round.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

All right. If there is a writer who you could write like or emulate or who you aspire to be, like, who is that writer?

[B]

McPhee.

[A]

Yeah. Why?

[B]

Well, he's. I'm a non fiction writer. McPhee's a non fiction writer. He can. He can take things that would be utterly boring and make them fascinating. He has huge range. Yeah, he's written some of my favorite books. Just clean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, he's got a great sense for everything, like detail. He's got a great sense for dialogue. He's funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I used to when I was trying to get a. Write a voice as a writer, you wind up copying a bunch of stuff, but you're not good enough to copy it, so you wind up accidentally discovering something new.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was one of the things I was like trying to emulate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though I was incapable of it.

[A]

Is there a favorite animal that you hunt that you think that's the one I most enjoy the pursuit for?

[B]

Mule deer and turkeys. Yeah, wild turkeys. Yeah, wild turkeys and meal deer.

[A]

What is it about wild turkeys that you're like that? That's fun?

[B]

Well, they make like, their heads change color, they make crazy noises. They're good to eat. Yeah. You know, what more could you ask for?

[A]

What about your.

[B]

What else's head goes from red to blue?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. What about your favorite meat to eat? I saw a with you where they came to your house and like toured your house and you were talking, you opened your freezer and of course your freezer doesn't look like most people's freezers, man. Like when you open that freezer, we.

[B]

A lot of mule deer. Yeah, we, we, we my. In my household, we ton of mule deer.

[A]

What about your. I mean, meat eater, I gotta ask this question. What's your favorite non meat food stuff.

[B]

I grow in my garden? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right now. Some pickled carrots I made out of my garden. Yeah, I like raising food, man. Yeah, Anything like this time of year, it's like we live off the land, man. Like the other night we had. We were eating fish, we caught carrots, we grew Zucchini. We grew green beans. We grew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's fun to me.

[A]

Yeah. Have you got a part of the North American. We'll just leave it to North American wilderness that you, when you go to it, you're like, this is the best. This is the place to come. This is it.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of stuff in Alaska.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tongas National Forest, the Brooks Range. A lot of stuff in Alaska. Yeah. Someone made a great point to me is that in the lower 48, we're in a recovery phase environmentally, conservation wise. We're trying to like bring things back, restore. In Alaska, there's still an element of. They're still trying to describe what's there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's like salmon runs that haven't been formally described. Yeah. It's just a different place. It's different. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I've heard you say before that you don't have a favorite gun because every gun has its purpose. You know, you, this gun is for hunting this animal and this gun's. But you know, a lot of folks who I talk with will say, you know, I like a weapon that's an extension of my person. You know, like it feels. Yeah.

[B]

So I wanted to ask you, is.

[A]

There a gun like that? I mean, understanding that each, each weapon has its purpose in hunting and you don't use the same rifle for this that you do that. Is there one that when you shoot it, you think, man, this is, this is, it's like it's welded to my arm, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Right now, I can't imagine right now. I shoot well, I shoot like, like mostly like magnum cartridges. So like a.300 win mag and then a gun that people would look at and they wouldn't even really recognize. Like if people haven't followed firearms technology, they would look at anyone, you know what they're looking at. But like chassis guns.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like bolt, you know, bolt action rifles with a, with a chassis, a folding stock. Yeah. You know, you'd look at it and think you were looking at some kind of. You'd be like, that's like a military gun, but it's just a traditional bolt action. Yeah. Center fire rifle that has some, that has some things that have been adopted from military technology. I guess. Like all guns are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you would, if you were a traditionalist, you'd look and be disappointed. But that's what I like. Yeah.

[A]

On the subject of equipment, you know, there's a lot of debate in my circles about off road vehicles. Is there one that you think is, you know, there's a Lot of off road vehicles that are like, you know, that's, they're just selling that to people who go to Costco. Is there an off road vehicle that you think that's, that's, that's the best off road vehicle right there.

[B]

I mean, I always drive like extended cab.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Full size four wheel drive pickups. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, like just. Yeah. I don't, I don't have all the stuff hanging off the sides. Yeah. Like all the decorations hanging off the sides. I put my stuff inside.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. And you know, you mentioned earlier you're a non fiction guy. Harrison's a fiction guy, so I wanted to get a record.

[B]

He's a great essayist too though.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. That's true. But I wanted to recommendation or even a couple from you for non fiction books about outdoors, wilderness, whatever you think that are in your view, sort of kind of classics that everybody should read.

[B]

You know, Barry Lopez's Arctic Dreams. Barry Lopez is very uncomfortable with hunting. Very uncomfortable with it. But he wrote a book about the Arctic and the animals and people of the Arctic. Yeah. Changed my life. McPhee. I'd mentioned like in Alaska a lot. McPhee's book coming into the country is a phenomenal book. There's a couple that I love. Daniel Morgan's nonfiction book called Boone. Oh, yeah. Is unbelievable.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's about. It's a lot about the American wilderness. Yeah, yeah. Phenomenal. Yeah. Those are great books. Those are books that really changed me. Yeah.

[A]

And then last question. One luxury item and one necessity item that every outdoorsman needs.

[B]

They make these little inflatable pillows. Oh, yeah. That are about yay big. That's a luxury item. It's nice to have a necessary.

[A]

Yeah. Like you gotta have it.

[B]

I can't stand. I have binoculars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can't stand. I have binoculars. Yeah. And I put them in like a FHF bino harness so they're like all taken care of and they sit right here. Like, I hate not having binoculars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I. People think that for looking at stuff far away, man, I look at stuff like across this room with my binoculars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just suck it right in, you know? Yeah. Like I can't stand being out in the woods without binos. And I like having that little blow up pillow. Right, right.

[A]

Yeah. The pillow sounds really nice.

[B]

Comfortable pillow.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I might get one for my bed.

[B]

You feel soft every time you blow it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then you justify it by being. It's only that big.

[A]

Well, Steve Vernella, thank you for introducing us to Wolf today. It's been a pleasure.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.