Old School with Shilo Brooks: “MeatEater’s Steven Rinella on Lessons from the Wilderness”

Podcast Date: October 9, 2025
Summary by an Expert Podcast Summarizer

Episode Overview

In this episode of Old School, host Shilo Brooks sits down with Steven Rinella, renowned outdoorsman, author, TV host, and founder of the MeatEater outdoor brand. The focus is on the 1971 novel Wolf by Jim Harrison, a book that profoundly influenced Rinella’s worldview as a writer and as a man. Through a wide-ranging, deeply personal, and often humorous conversation, Brooks and Rinella examine themes of masculinity, wilderness, alienation, and the role of books in shaping character. They also reflect on how nature can be both restorative and demanding, while wrestling with the more troubling elements of the novel and its protagonist.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Steven Rinella’s Journey as a Writer and Outdoorsman

• Starting as a Writer:

  • Rinella’s path was always writing-driven. “My first plan...I grew up totally intending to be a fur trapper. And if that didn’t work out, I’ll be a writer.” (02:43)
  • Despite building the MeatEater media empire, writing is still at his core.

• No Plan B Philosophy:

  • Advises students: “Whatever plan B you have, just kill it now because it’ll be too seductive. You’ll fall into your plan B because A’s are always hard.” (02:44)

• Relationship to Nature and Media:

  • Most of his time is now spent in MeatEater’s media division.
  • Emphasizes his authentic connection to the outdoors as central to his work.

2. Discovering Jim Harrison & Wolf

• Personal Connection:

  • Harrison was an icon to locals in West Michigan: “He was sort of our guy because he was from there…as aspiring writers, it was kind of like, wow. Like this dude can come out of this hardscrabble place...” (07:09)

• Harrison’s Place in American Letters:

  • Brooks compares Harrison to “American writing royalty,” placing him in the literary league with Cormac McCarthy and Faulkner (05:07)
  • Harrison’s mastery of detail, akin to McCarthy’s, gives his work authenticity.

3. Breakdown of Wolf: Plot, Form, and Style

• Plot in a Nutshell:

  • “It’s about a guy that grows up in the northern Lower Peninsula, Michigan, in a very poor rural environment…He’s disgruntled, apathetic…has a somewhat Kerouacian journey…returns home…goes into the wilderness…hoping to catch a glimpse of a wolf.” (09:49)
  • The narrative is non-linear, blurring lines between memory, fantasy, and reality.

• Stream-of-Consciousness Style:

  • The novel’s structure is challenging: “It’s a stream of consciousness tradition…You don’t really know when he’s where…the novel kind of flows over you like water.” (13:43)

• Stylistic Brilliance:

  • Rinella stresses Harrison’s style: “If you had to go style, substance with Harrison…Harrison style sits above substance.” (36:14)

4. Dissecting the Protagonist (Swanson): Masculinity, Alienation, and Anger

• Complex, Often Unlikeable Character:

  • Early likability gives way to disgust: “I started out thinking, oh, yeah, he’s really likable. And then…he’s terrible. And I’m like, this guy is sick.” (15:59)

• Angst and Alienation:

  • Mirrors a “capacity to despise” others (rich kids, outsiders), mirroring Rinella’s own circle growing up.
  • “He’s just pissed…He’s out of the womb, disgruntled.” (12:20, 18:18)

• Masculinity in Crisis:

  • Brooks: “He seems to live in a world where what it means to be a man is not clear to him anymore…his masculinity seeks some kind of ordered outlet.” (20:37)

• Search for Meaning:

  • Swanson’s rootless quest reflects a pervasive sense of meaninglessness in modern life, which Brooks connects to contemporary frustrations in young men. (19:38)

• Predatory Impulse & The Wolf Metaphor:

  • The wolf isn’t just his quarry, it’s a metaphor for his own predatory, restless nature.
    • Brooks: “The fact of the matter is this guy’s the wolf…a predator.” (29:20)

5. Moral Blindspots & Treatment of Women

• Uncomfortable Content:

  • Both hosts grapple with disturbing sexual/violent content: “You kind of want to throw up…He has committed some irredeemable stuff.” (25:01)
  • Childhood sexual encounters, predatory behavior, and misogyny pervade the novel.

• Changing Perspectives with Age:

  • Rinella notes: “When I first read it…breezed over [the treatment of women]…Now I read it with a little bit of… embarrassment.” (24:13)

• The Problem of Separating Artist and Work:

  • On Harrison: “He got a pass throughout life as a literary figure…for a set of behaviors that I now be like…how could you just constantly humiliate your wife?” (27:20)

6. Tradition, Family Legacy, and Disconnection

• Respect for Ancestry:

  • Despite his bitterness, Swanson reveres his grandparents and their traditions: “The one thing that the legacy of his family…is the one thing he respects.” (33:26)

• Longing for a Lost Order:

  • Brooks: “In a chaotic world…he orients himself through some attachment to tradition…” (33:36)
  • Both hosts see this orientation as resonant for contemporary readers.

7. Healing (and Challenges) in Wilderness

• Why Nature Restores:

  • Rinella describes “the arena of consequence”: “When you’re in wilderness settings…you know where to focus your energy…You’re not always being seduced by other possibilities…when you screw up, you’re cold.” (42:31–44:13)
  • Nature offers purpose, beauty, and a sense of order that modern life lacks.

• Danger of Over-romanticizing Wilderness:

  • Brooks points out that real wilderness is often uncomfortable and dangerous—far from the fantasy some imagine. (48:33)
  • Rinella distinguishes between “consumptive” and “non-consumptive” users of nature, advocating for a relationship that is both respectful and participatory. (49:31–52:33)

8. Nature and Human Identity

• We Are of Nature:
  • “We are an animal. I was always trying to push this idea on [my kids]…not view themselves as outside of…” (54:17–54:44)
  • Encourages viewing ourselves as one way of being alive on Earth, not above other creatures.

9. First Steps to Engage with Wilderness

• Advice for Beginners:
  • Go and simply observe wildlife; anthropomorphizing a little is okay. (56:05–56:54)
  • Finding wonder in how animals live deepens appreciation for the natural world and life’s complexity.

10. Lightning Round: Rinella’s Preferences & Recommendations

Notable Answers:

• Writer to Emulate: “McPhee…He can take things that would be utterly boring and make them fascinating.” (59:47)
• Favorite Game/Hunt: “Mule deer and wild turkeys…Their heads change color, they make crazy noises, they’re good to eat.” (60:38)
• Most Essential Gear: “Binoculars. I can’t stand not having binoculars…I look at stuff like across this room with my binoculars.” (65:31)
• Favorite Meat/Produce: “A lot of mule deer…pickled carrots I made out of my garden.” (61:11–61:21)
• Alaskan Wilderness: “Tongass National Forest, the Brooks Range…in Alaska, they’re still trying to describe what’s there.” (61:49)
• Top Nonfiction Recommendations:
  • Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez
  • Coming Into the Country by John McPhee
  • Boone by Daniel Morgan (64:31–65:10)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Writing:

  • “The through line is writing. Every day I do some sort of writing. At some point, I’ll return to having that be my day in, day out thing.” —Steven Rinella (02:18)

• On Masculinity & Purpose:

  • “He seems to live in a world where what it means to be a man is not clear to him anymore…his masculinity seeks some kind of ordered outlet. But…there’s no real outlet for it.” —Shilo Brooks (20:37)

• On Alienation & Bitterness:

  • “He’s out of the womb, disgruntled.” —Steven Rinella (18:18)
  • “There’s just like an angstiness…For all that kind of angst and bitterness… I don’t have an excuse for it either.” (20:03)

• On the Power of Nature:

  • “You are stepping into a sanctuary of sorts…just calm down and just be here.” —Steven Rinella (44:14)
  • “At every moment, every action you take has heft. It has purpose and meaning in an arena of beauty and reverence.” —Shilo Brooks (45:57)

• On Growth as a Reader:

  • “Read this book in your 20s, then read it in your 30s, then read it in your 60s because you change, but the book stays the same.” —Shilo Brooks (27:53)

• On Harrison’s Style:

  • “A writer like no other…if you like inventive use of language, you should check out Wolf.” —Steven Rinella (35:30)

Highlighted Segment Timestamps

• [03:08–04:57] Rinella’s career path: from fur trapping dreams to writing.
• [09:49–13:43] Plot primers and the stream-of-consciousness format of Wolf.
• [15:59–18:18] Diagnosing Swanson’s “sickness,” dislikable traits, and generational disconnection.
• [23:41–25:53] Examining the book’s troubling attitudes toward women.
• [29:20–31:46] The “wolf” as predator—metaphors around vision and self-understanding.
• [32:20–34:35] Respect for family legacy and tradition as Swanson’s anchor.
• [42:31–45:57] Nature as an “arena of consequence”—what the wilderness gives and demands.
• [49:31–54:44] Wildness: misconception versus reality, human relation to natural world.
• [56:05–59:34] How to observe and learn from wildlife—advice for re-engaging with nature.
• [59:37–65:54] Lightning round: favorite books, animals, gear, wilderness spots, and practical advice.

Engaging/Insightful Moments

• On Wolf’s relevance:
  • Brooks sees Swanson as an emblem of “our own contemporary spirit and masculinity in our own time,” connecting 1970s angst to today’s “aimlessness of a lot of young men.” (12:27, 19:38)
• Rinella’s admission on wrestling with the book:
  • “It’s hard stuff for me to read. I like this thing of having so much admiration for the writer and the way I used to read it and the way I read it now...” (27:43)
• Philosophical Digression:
  • The conversation becomes philosophical when examining whether humans are other to or part of nature, with Rinella teaching his kids “we are an animal.” (53:51–54:44)
• Practical Wisdom:
  • On gear: “I hate not having binoculars. People think [they’re] for looking at stuff far away, man, I look at stuff like across this room with my binoculars.” (65:41)

Conclusion

This episode offers a probing, sometimes raw account of what a gritty modern classic like Wolf can teach about the search for meaning, the burdens and gifts of masculinity, and how authentic engagement with wilderness can offer clarity and restoration. Alongside candid reflections on the limits and liabilities of old-school literature, listeners are left challenged to encounter both the wild—and themselves—more honestly.

Recommended Next Steps:

• Pick up Jim Harrison’s Wolf, especially if you’re interested in American literature, coming-of-age stories, or wilderness writing.
• Explore suggested nonfiction nature writing from Rinella.
• Consider venturing out to observe wildlife, starting with simple, curious observation.

For more engaging discussions about books, masculinity, and becoming a better man—catch more episodes of Old School every Thursday from The Free Press.