Podcast Summary

Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode: The Lost Art of Taking the Piss with Richard Dawkins
Date: December 18, 2025
Host: Shilo Brooks
Guest: Richard Dawkins
Main Theme:
A deep and witty conversation about P.G. Wodehouse, the enduring appeal of humor in classic literature, and the place of laughter in a world increasingly dominated by science and secularism.

Episode Overview

Shilo Brooks sits down with renowned evolutionary biologist and celebrated atheist author Richard Dawkins to discuss the comic genius of P.G. Wodehouse—specifically, Uncle Fred in the Springtime. They explore Dawkins’ love of fiction, what makes Wodehouse’s humor timeless (and potentially problematic in the present), and the interplay between humor, societal norms, and a godless world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dawkins' Relationship with Fiction [02:15–03:52]

• Why fiction?
  • Dawkins recounts his long-standing enjoyment of fiction, in particular Wodehouse and Evelyn Waugh, as pure recreation unrelated to his scientific reading.
    • "For actually enjoyment, I read PG Wodehouse, I read Evelyn Waugh, and so my mind naturally went to PG Wodehouse that I read over and over and over again." – Dawkins [02:15]
• Discovery of Wodehouse:
  • Dawkins first read Wodehouse at age 12, when his headmaster read a story aloud in boarding school: "The headmaster read us this book and we absolutely loved it. And I've adored PG Wodehouse ever since." [03:08]

2. P.G. Wodehouse: Life and Works [05:24–07:10]

• Background:
  • Wodehouse’s lifelong affection for his private school, absence of a university education, early work in finance, writing career in London and Hollywood, and the WWII radio controversy that led to his exile in America.
    • "He discovered that he could write and became a very successful writer... there was a very unfortunate episode when he... agreed to do some broadcasts for the German radio... After the war, he went to America and never returned to Britain because of that." – Dawkins [05:24]

3. The Comic World of Uncle Fred in the Springtime [07:10–09:30]

• Plot and Setting:
  • Set in a British stately home, the characters’ problems (notably, a pig) are depicted with lighthearted absurdity.
    • "It's this rollicking novel about people who are wealthier than you and I, who have small problems which are made artificially big through the comic artisan PG Wodehouse." – Brooks [08:17]
• On Uncle Fred:
  • A master deceiver, Uncle Fred’s charm lies in deploying deception for genuinely good (if ridiculous) ends.
    • "What has to do there for the good of people? I mean, he's helping people all the time. And so he's an imposter, but he's doing it for good reasons, for good motives." – Dawkins [09:30]

4. The Essence of Wodehouse’s Humor: Language & Simile [10:07–11:57]

• Mastery of Simile:
  • Dawkins and Brooks discuss Wodehouse’s elaborate, erudite—and often outlandish—similes.
    • Notable Quote:
      "Nature stretching Horace Davenport out, had forgotten to stretch him sideways. And one could have pictured Euclid, had they met, nudging a friend and saying, don't look now, but this chap coming along illustrates exactly what I was telling you about a straight line having length without breadth." – Dawkins [10:49]
    • Dawkins emphasizes: "It's the language." [10:07]
    • Other gems:
      "He was so fat that tailors would measure him just for the exercise." "It's never difficult to distinguish a Scotsman with a grievance from a ray of sunshine." [11:19–11:47]

5. Humor, Class, and Satire [12:26–15:46]

• Comedy of the Aristocracy:
  • The humor arises from the low stakes and pettiness of the leisured class, making “high” people “low.”
    • "His aristocrats and his—yeah, they're all idiots... Bertie is a complete fool and Jeeves is so clever... Jeeves could be running IBM." – Dawkins [13:16]
• Universal and Outdated?
  • Brooks probes whether today’s youth or non-Brits can access this humor; Dawkins responds with uncertainty.
    • "It's so far from modern life. It's so far from all of us who have to have a job." – Dawkins [14:37]
    • Brooks: "I wonder if my American students, who have no access to the British aristocracy, would find this funny." [16:00]

6. Satire and Political Subversion [23:02–27:37]

• Is There a Serious Core?
  • Brooks presses Dawkins on whether Wodehouse’s humor is superficially frivolous or deeply subversive.
    • Dawkins: "I think he probably was rather frivolous." [22:20]
    • Brooks: "I can't help but give him the benefit of the doubt and think he was thoughtful about these matters." [24:24]
• Wodehouse Satirizing Fascism:
  • Notably, Wodehouse’s character Roderick Spode lampoons the British fascist Oswald Mosley—showing political bite.
    • "Woodhouse satirized Him in this character called Roderick Spode, whose followers went around in black shorts." – Dawkins [26:54]

7. The Boundaries of Humor in Modern Times [30:06–31:41]

• Limits of Satire Today:
  • Brooks and Dawkins discuss the recent demise of late-night satirists (like Colbert), self-censorship due to political correctness/“wokeness,” and the dangers of ideological humorlessness.
    • "I do worry about the evacuation of humor from intellectual life because ideologies take hold so easily these days." – Brooks [31:41]
    • Dawkins: "Well, I quite agree... Tom Lehrer has just died... an outstanding satirist..." [31:41]

8. The Role of Laughter Without God [32:12–38:18]

• Is Humor Needed in a Godless World?
  • Brooks asks whether an atheistic universe makes humor more or less vital.
    • Dawkins: "I've only written two books about God, [and] I think it's a funny book... I like to use humor, and I think there's a lot of humor in that book." [32:52]
  • Dawkins insists a scientifically understood (atheistic) world is not tragic or humorless:
    • "Because the scientific understanding of the world is so marvelous... we come close to understanding everything. That's a marvelous feeling, that before you die, you have the privilege of understanding why you were ever here in the first place." [35:18]
  • When pressed about the mystery and spiritual longing that myth and poetry offer, Dawkins asserts:
    • "The joy of mystery is a superficial, trivial, unworthy kind of joy... The joy of understanding is so much classier than that." [35:48]

9. On the Evolutionary Roots of Humor [38:29–39:17]

• Can Humor Be Explained by Evolution?
  • Dawkins admits limitations of Darwinism for the complex details of human psychology:
    • "You can't do your Darwinism on... the details of human psychology like that. You can do it on major items... but when you come to things like humor, I find I'm out of my depth." [38:47]

10. Lightning Round with Dawkins [39:17–39:53]

• Best pop science book (other than his own)?
  • “Carl Sagan, the Demon Haunted World.” [39:24]
• Book that changed his mind?
  • “Jeffrey West, Scale.” [39:27]
• Discovery/fact he wishes got more attention?
  • “Darwin's.” [39:27]
• Most important scientific discovery in last 100 years?
  • “Watson Crick.” [39:27]
• If forced to convert to any religion?
  • “I wouldn't.” [39:52]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "For actually enjoyment, I read PG Wodehouse... over and over and over again." – Dawkins [02:15]
• "The headmaster read us this book and we absolutely loved it. And I've adored PG Wodehouse ever since." – Dawkins [03:08]
• "Nature stretching Horace Davenport out, had forgotten to stretch him sideways. And one could have pictured Euclid... saying, 'don't look now, but this chap coming along illustrates exactly what I was telling you about a straight line having length without breadth.'" – Dawkins reading Wodehouse [10:49]
• "His aristocrats... they're all idiots... Bertie is a complete fool and Jeeves is so clever, and Jeeves could be running IBM." – Dawkins [13:16]
• "I think there is a distinct overlap between comedy and tragedy." – Dawkins [21:50]
• "Because the scientific understanding of the world is so marvelous... that's a marvelous feeling, that before you die, you have the privilege of understanding why you were ever here." – Dawkins [35:18]
• "You can't do your Darwinism on... the details of human psychology like that... but when you come to things like humor, I find I'm out of my depth." – Dawkins [38:47]
• "If forced to convert to any religion? I wouldn't." – Dawkins [39:52]

Useful Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Dawkins on pleasure of fiction over science reading | 02:15 | | First encounter with Wodehouse | 03:08 | | Brief biography of Wodehouse and wartime controversy | 05:24–07:10 | | Uncle Fred & the art of affectionate deception | 08:17–09:41 | | The genius of Wodehouse’s language | 10:07–11:57 | | Comedic inversion of high and low (class satire) | 12:26–15:46 | | Political satire: Roderick Spode and fascism | 26:54 | | Humor in a secular world: Dawkins on joy and meaning | 35:15–36:45 | | Dawkins on limits of evolutionary explanation for humor| 38:47 | | Lightning round | 39:17–39:53 |

Tone & Final Reflection

The conversation is genial, erudite, and gently provocative. Dawkins’ dry, analytical sense of humor meets Brooks’ often highbrow literary curiosity, resulting in an exchange that is both lighthearted and intellectually stimulating. While Dawkins is skeptical of over-interpreting Wodehouse’s frivolity, Brooks presses for deeper significance—emphasizing the historical power of satire and the potential seriousness underlying comedy.

Ultimate Takeaway:
Wodehouse’s humor—rooted in dazzling language, absurd plots among the leisured, and lovingly satirical treatment of authority—remains a valuable (if sometimes outdated) refuge from modern seriousness. Dawkins treasures this, not as an object lesson or ideological beacon, but as pure, necessary delight. Both men agree: the world always needs laughter, whether it comes from science, literature, or just the perfect simile.