Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode: The NYC Public Defender Who Sends Books to Prisoners
Date: March 5, 2026
Host: Shilo Brooks
Guest: Ben Schatz

Overview

This episode of "Old School" features Shilo Brooks in conversation with Ben Schatz, a New York City public defender and founder of Books Beyond Bars—a program that provides free books to incarcerated individuals. The central theme is the transformative power of reading, both in Ben’s personal life (via the novel True Grit) and for those he serves through his work. The discussion covers the founding of Books Beyond Bars, the significance of True Grit, justice in America, the daily realities and flaws of the criminal legal system, and the impact of literature on those inside and outside prison walls.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Schatz’s Background and the Origins of Books Beyond Bars

Role & Motivation:
- Ben is a post-conviction public defender, representing people already convicted and serving long sentences ([01:41]).
- Noted the need to humanize his clients:
  
  “I want my clients to trust me and I want them to understand that I really do care about them as people, that they're not paperwork. They are complex human beings with hopes and aspirations and nuances.” ([02:52])
Why Books?
- Early in his career, realized many clients waited years for legal news or progress, so he asked what they wanted to read instead ([03:57]).
- The service goes beyond generic book donations—the program buys the exact requested titles, feeling that sending a chosen book has real dignity ([05:19]).
  
  “It’s another thing to get the exact book that you want to read.” ([06:03])
Book Requests:
- Wide-ranging genres are requested: thrillers, poetry, childhood favorites, mental health books, law manuals ([05:19], [07:43]).

2. Letters from Incarcerated Readers

Handwritten Letters:
- Inmates share deep gratitude, describing books as lifelines and tools for retaining sanity and hope ([07:42]–[08:59]).
  
  “Thank you for such a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to bridge the gap between education and free reading from such a dark place... I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for bringing hope to my world. It’s kind of like fire at the end of a torch.” ([08:59])
  “Books are an essential part of society, rehabilitation, humanity.” ([07:43])

3. The Transformative Power of True Grit

Ben’s Reading Journey:
- Ben explains a recent rediscovery of pleasure reading, focusing on the emotional and narrative joy of fiction ([10:18]).
- He reads whenever he can, especially in “little spurts”—even moments where one might otherwise check their phone ([11:40]).
Plot Summary:
- True Grit follows 14-year-old Maddie Ross avenging her father’s murder in 19th-century Arkansas ([12:31]).
Why True Grit Speaks Deeply:
- The character of Maddie stands out:
  
  "You can read the first paragraph and know exactly what the entire book is about." ([12:31])
  “The protagonist is a 14-year-old girl and a lot of the really touching and poignant moments from the book relate to her experience going on this adventure that she's not supposed to be doing.” ([15:14])

Notable Quotes/Readings from True Grit

Maddie’s resilience:

“I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task... If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.” ([18:03])
Maddie’s wit and sharpness:

“I say that of ponies. I've known some horses and a good many more pigs who I believe harbored evil intent in their hearts. I'll go further and say that all cats are wicked, though often useful. Who has not seen Satan in their sly faces?” ([21:07])
Her maturity:

“Little did papa realize that morning that he was never to see us or hold us again, nor would he ever again hearken to the meadow larks... trilling a joyous anthem to spring.” ([21:29])

In-Depth Literary Discussion

Exploring Character & Justice

Rooster Cogburn:
- Embodies rough, Old Testament-style justice ("eye for an eye"); compelling but flawed ([24:26], [25:26]).
  
  “[Rooster] is just out for justice and that's what she wants.” ([24:26])
  - His “rat writ” scene satirizes legal procedure ([25:54]).
Maddie Ross:
- True protagonist; her seriousness, tenacity, and sense of justice drive the novel ([16:45], [18:25]).
- Grit is redefined—not mere toughness, but character, conviction, and willingness to do what’s right at personal cost ([31:55], [34:12]).
LaBoeuf (“Le Beef”):
- Represents lawful, conventional justice; contrasts with Rooster’s roughness ([29:12]).
  
  “You have this sort of rough justice, you know, shoot from the hip type lawman, and you have the, you know, prideful sort of fancy pants Texas brush popper... There are layers unexplored in this.” ([29:21])

Thematic Exploration: What Is True Grit?

Grit as tenacity and character, more than physical courage:

“Maddie's grit, and I think that's ultimately what the title references, is grit of character... She misses her father's funeral because she needs to go avenge her father's death. Some might fault me for missing my own father's funeral, but I had to do what I had to do... those are the passages that speak to her grit.” ([31:55])
Maddie’s strength transcends stereotype:

“And she's 14, and that shows you don't—the stereotypes don't really hold. She's incredible and she's tough and she's courageous.” ([33:41])

Books as Escape and Education

For prisoners, books are “wonderful escape” and sometimes practical resources ([36:16]).

“If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way that you can do it.” ([37:48])

On the American Legal System

Ben shares unvarnished criticism of systemic issues:
- Routine coercion via plea deals; “trial tax” ([40:33])
- Overwhelming case loads; lack of rehabilitation; prevalence of defendants with untreated mental illness ([42:44])
“My clients, who are black and brown, in disproportionate percentages... Their public defender... is advising them, ‘you can take this now or you can go to trial later and get something worse.’ It’s an incredibly coercive process.” ([40:33]) “These are the most disenfranchised folks you could come across, and there isn't a soul who has given them a thing in their entire life.” ([44:32])
His purpose:

"My view is that it's a very human view... My clients are no different than you or me or anybody else. And they deserve, just like anyone else, to have an advocate, to have someone go into court and stand up for them and speak on their behalf." ([45:15])
On the need for legal reform:

“A lot of this goes to education. It goes to who the decision makers are... even if it were the case that they could understand really what's going on and fully appreciate the facts of the case... they wouldn't have time... and so it results in sort of a rubber stamp process.” ([47:39])

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

Books Beyond Bars Letters ([07:43]–[08:59]):

"I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for supporting my request and bringing hope to my world. It's kind of like fire at the end of a torch." ([08:59])
Maddie’s Voice in True Grit ([18:04]):

“I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task.”
“If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.”
“Rat writ” scene from True Grit ([25:54]):

“Dear. Excuse me, Mr. Rat, I have a writ here. It's a rat writ... and then he just shoots the rat.”
On the Purpose of Books in Prison ([37:48]):

“If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way...”
Critique of the Legal System ([40:33]):

"It's not a system of trials, but of pleas... If you get a plea offer of, say, five years… you turn that down and go to trial... you're gonna get a sentence of eight years... There isn't a whole lot of sophistication there."
Lightning Round: Best Rooster Cogburn ([49:16]):

"Jeff Bridges, no question... The old one is... It’s trash."
(a tongue-in-cheek, unapologetic verdict)
If Judges Could Read One Book ([51:54]):

"Native Son... something to remind the judges that... every one of these people... is a human being and is a complex individual with a range of emotions."
Where to Donate ([53:58]):

"They can go to booksbeyondbars.org... We seek out the books that our clients ask for... We want money so we can buy books for our clients, and we want to get them the books they want to read. And that’s all your donation does. 100%."

Timestamps for Key Segments

[01:41] – Ben describes public defense and the origins of Books Beyond Bars
[05:19] – Examples of requested books from incarcerated individuals
[07:43] – Reading “thank you” letters from inmates
[10:18] – Ben’s approach to reading and why True Grit
[12:31] – Summary of True Grit plot
[18:03] – Maddie’s resilience and memorable quotes
[21:07] – Ben reads passages highlighting Maddie’s unique voice
[24:26] – On Rooster Cogburn and the justice system
[31:55] – Discussion about the meaning of “true grit”
[36:16] – Why books matter to the incarcerated; books as “escape”
[40:33] – Flaws and coercion in the US legal system
[45:15] – Ben’s motivation for public defense work
[49:16] – Lightning round: Bridges vs. Wayne as Rooster
[51:54] – Book he’d have judges read: Native Son
[53:58] – Books Beyond Bars donation info

Final Thoughts

This episode is a rich, candid conversation about the transformative power of reading, the raw realities of the American legal system, and the enduring literary resonance of True Grit. Ben Schatz’s commitment to his clients—through both advocacy and the dignity of literacy—shows literature’s power to foster humanity even in the most challenging environments. The unique voice of Maddie Ross is a bridge connecting these worlds: her “true grit” echoes through every page, just as Ben’s compassion rings in every book sent behind the wall.

For More Information:

Books Beyond Bars: booksbeyondbars.org
Read along with the podcast: Old School Bookshop List

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode: The NYC Public Defender Who Sends Books to Prisoners
Date: March 5, 2026
Host: Shilo Brooks
Guest: Ben Schatz

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Schatz’s Background and the Origins of Books Beyond Bars

Role & Motivation:
- Ben is a post-conviction public defender, representing people already convicted and serving long sentences ([01:41]).
- Noted the need to humanize his clients:
  
  “I want my clients to trust me and I want them to understand that I really do care about them as people, that they're not paperwork. They are complex human beings with hopes and aspirations and nuances.” ([02:52])
Why Books?
- Early in his career, realized many clients waited years for legal news or progress, so he asked what they wanted to read instead ([03:57]).
- The service goes beyond generic book donations—the program buys the exact requested titles, feeling that sending a chosen book has real dignity ([05:19]).
  
  “It’s another thing to get the exact book that you want to read.” ([06:03])
Book Requests:
- Wide-ranging genres are requested: thrillers, poetry, childhood favorites, mental health books, law manuals ([05:19], [07:43]).

2. Letters from Incarcerated Readers

Handwritten Letters:
- Inmates share deep gratitude, describing books as lifelines and tools for retaining sanity and hope ([07:42]–[08:59]).
  
  “Thank you for such a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to bridge the gap between education and free reading from such a dark place... I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for bringing hope to my world. It’s kind of like fire at the end of a torch.” ([08:59])
  “Books are an essential part of society, rehabilitation, humanity.” ([07:43])

3. The Transformative Power of True Grit

Ben’s Reading Journey:
- Ben explains a recent rediscovery of pleasure reading, focusing on the emotional and narrative joy of fiction ([10:18]).
- He reads whenever he can, especially in “little spurts”—even moments where one might otherwise check their phone ([11:40]).
Plot Summary:
- True Grit follows 14-year-old Maddie Ross avenging her father’s murder in 19th-century Arkansas ([12:31]).
Why True Grit Speaks Deeply:
- The character of Maddie stands out:
  
  "You can read the first paragraph and know exactly what the entire book is about." ([12:31])
  “The protagonist is a 14-year-old girl and a lot of the really touching and poignant moments from the book relate to her experience going on this adventure that she's not supposed to be doing.” ([15:14])

Notable Quotes/Readings from True Grit

Maddie’s resilience:

“I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task... If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.” ([18:03])
Maddie’s wit and sharpness:

“I say that of ponies. I've known some horses and a good many more pigs who I believe harbored evil intent in their hearts. I'll go further and say that all cats are wicked, though often useful. Who has not seen Satan in their sly faces?” ([21:07])
Her maturity:

“Little did papa realize that morning that he was never to see us or hold us again, nor would he ever again hearken to the meadow larks... trilling a joyous anthem to spring.” ([21:29])

In-Depth Literary Discussion

Exploring Character & Justice

Rooster Cogburn:
- Embodies rough, Old Testament-style justice ("eye for an eye"); compelling but flawed ([24:26], [25:26]).
  
  “[Rooster] is just out for justice and that's what she wants.” ([24:26])
  - His “rat writ” scene satirizes legal procedure ([25:54]).
Maddie Ross:
- True protagonist; her seriousness, tenacity, and sense of justice drive the novel ([16:45], [18:25]).
- Grit is redefined—not mere toughness, but character, conviction, and willingness to do what’s right at personal cost ([31:55], [34:12]).
LaBoeuf (“Le Beef”):
- Represents lawful, conventional justice; contrasts with Rooster’s roughness ([29:12]).
  
  “You have this sort of rough justice, you know, shoot from the hip type lawman, and you have the, you know, prideful sort of fancy pants Texas brush popper... There are layers unexplored in this.” ([29:21])

Thematic Exploration: What Is True Grit?

Grit as tenacity and character, more than physical courage:

“Maddie's grit, and I think that's ultimately what the title references, is grit of character... She misses her father's funeral because she needs to go avenge her father's death. Some might fault me for missing my own father's funeral, but I had to do what I had to do... those are the passages that speak to her grit.” ([31:55])
Maddie’s strength transcends stereotype:

“And she's 14, and that shows you don't—the stereotypes don't really hold. She's incredible and she's tough and she's courageous.” ([33:41])

Books as Escape and Education

For prisoners, books are “wonderful escape” and sometimes practical resources ([36:16]).

“If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way that you can do it.” ([37:48])

On the American Legal System

Ben shares unvarnished criticism of systemic issues:
- Routine coercion via plea deals; “trial tax” ([40:33])
- Overwhelming case loads; lack of rehabilitation; prevalence of defendants with untreated mental illness ([42:44])
“My clients, who are black and brown, in disproportionate percentages... Their public defender... is advising them, ‘you can take this now or you can go to trial later and get something worse.’ It’s an incredibly coercive process.” ([40:33]) “These are the most disenfranchised folks you could come across, and there isn't a soul who has given them a thing in their entire life.” ([44:32])
His purpose:

"My view is that it's a very human view... My clients are no different than you or me or anybody else. And they deserve, just like anyone else, to have an advocate, to have someone go into court and stand up for them and speak on their behalf." ([45:15])
On the need for legal reform:

“A lot of this goes to education. It goes to who the decision makers are... even if it were the case that they could understand really what's going on and fully appreciate the facts of the case... they wouldn't have time... and so it results in sort of a rubber stamp process.” ([47:39])

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

Books Beyond Bars Letters ([07:43]–[08:59]):

"I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for supporting my request and bringing hope to my world. It's kind of like fire at the end of a torch." ([08:59])
Maddie’s Voice in True Grit ([18:04]):

“I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task.”
“If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.”
“Rat writ” scene from True Grit ([25:54]):

“Dear. Excuse me, Mr. Rat, I have a writ here. It's a rat writ... and then he just shoots the rat.”
On the Purpose of Books in Prison ([37:48]):

“If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way...”
Critique of the Legal System ([40:33]):

"It's not a system of trials, but of pleas... If you get a plea offer of, say, five years… you turn that down and go to trial... you're gonna get a sentence of eight years... There isn't a whole lot of sophistication there."
Lightning Round: Best Rooster Cogburn ([49:16]):

"Jeff Bridges, no question... The old one is... It’s trash."
(a tongue-in-cheek, unapologetic verdict)
If Judges Could Read One Book ([51:54]):

"Native Son... something to remind the judges that... every one of these people... is a human being and is a complex individual with a range of emotions."
Where to Donate ([53:58]):

"They can go to booksbeyondbars.org... We seek out the books that our clients ask for... We want money so we can buy books for our clients, and we want to get them the books they want to read. And that’s all your donation does. 100%."

Timestamps for Key Segments

[01:41] – Ben describes public defense and the origins of Books Beyond Bars
[05:19] – Examples of requested books from incarcerated individuals
[07:43] – Reading “thank you” letters from inmates
[10:18] – Ben’s approach to reading and why True Grit
[12:31] – Summary of True Grit plot
[18:03] – Maddie’s resilience and memorable quotes
[21:07] – Ben reads passages highlighting Maddie’s unique voice
[24:26] – On Rooster Cogburn and the justice system
[31:55] – Discussion about the meaning of “true grit”
[36:16] – Why books matter to the incarcerated; books as “escape”
[40:33] – Flaws and coercion in the US legal system
[45:15] – Ben’s motivation for public defense work
[49:16] – Lightning round: Bridges vs. Wayne as Rooster
[51:54] – Book he’d have judges read: Native Son
[53:58] – Books Beyond Bars donation info

Final Thoughts

For More Information:

Books Beyond Bars: booksbeyondbars.org
Read along with the podcast: Old School Bookshop List

wavePod

The NYC Public Defender Who Sends Books to Prisoners

Summary

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Schatz’s Background and the Origins of Books Beyond Bars

2. Letters from Incarcerated Readers

3. The Transformative Power of True Grit

Notable Quotes/Readings from True Grit

In-Depth Literary Discussion

Exploring Character & Justice

Thematic Exploration: What Is True Grit?

Books as Escape and Education

On the American Legal System

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

Timestamps for Key Segments

Final Thoughts

For More Information:

Transcript

Summary

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Schatz’s Background and the Origins of Books Beyond Bars

2. Letters from Incarcerated Readers

3. The Transformative Power of True Grit

Notable Quotes/Readings from True Grit

In-Depth Literary Discussion

Exploring Character & Justice

Thematic Exploration: What Is True Grit?

Books as Escape and Education

On the American Legal System

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

Timestamps for Key Segments

Final Thoughts

For More Information: