The NYC Public Defender Who Sends Books to Prisoners

Summary

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode: The NYC Public Defender Who Sends Books to Prisoners
Date: March 5, 2026
Host: Shilo Brooks
Guest: Ben Schatz

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Overview

This episode of "Old School" features Shilo Brooks in conversation with Ben Schatz, a New York City public defender and founder of Books Beyond Bars—a program that provides free books to incarcerated individuals. The central theme is the transformative power of reading, both in Ben’s personal life (via the novel True Grit) and for those he serves through his work. The discussion covers the founding of Books Beyond Bars, the significance of True Grit, justice in America, the daily realities and flaws of the criminal legal system, and the impact of literature on those inside and outside prison walls.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Schatz’s Background and the Origins of Books Beyond Bars

• Role & Motivation:

  • Ben is a post-conviction public defender, representing people already convicted and serving long sentences ([01:41]).
  • Noted the need to humanize his clients:

    “I want my clients to trust me and I want them to understand that I really do care about them as people, that they're not paperwork. They are complex human beings with hopes and aspirations and nuances.” ([02:52])

• Why Books?

  • Early in his career, realized many clients waited years for legal news or progress, so he asked what they wanted to read instead ([03:57]).
  • The service goes beyond generic book donations—the program buys the exact requested titles, feeling that sending a chosen book has real dignity ([05:19]).

    “It’s another thing to get the exact book that you want to read.” ([06:03])

• Book Requests:

  • Wide-ranging genres are requested: thrillers, poetry, childhood favorites, mental health books, law manuals ([05:19], [07:43]).

2. Letters from Incarcerated Readers

• Handwritten Letters:
  • Inmates share deep gratitude, describing books as lifelines and tools for retaining sanity and hope ([07:42]–[08:59]).

    “Thank you for such a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to bridge the gap between education and free reading from such a dark place... I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for bringing hope to my world. It’s kind of like fire at the end of a torch.” ([08:59])
    “Books are an essential part of society, rehabilitation, humanity.” ([07:43])

3. The Transformative Power of True Grit

• Ben’s Reading Journey:

  • Ben explains a recent rediscovery of pleasure reading, focusing on the emotional and narrative joy of fiction ([10:18]).
  • He reads whenever he can, especially in “little spurts”—even moments where one might otherwise check their phone ([11:40]).

• Plot Summary:

  • True Grit follows 14-year-old Maddie Ross avenging her father’s murder in 19th-century Arkansas ([12:31]).

• Why True Grit Speaks Deeply:

  • The character of Maddie stands out:

    "You can read the first paragraph and know exactly what the entire book is about." ([12:31])
    “The protagonist is a 14-year-old girl and a lot of the really touching and poignant moments from the book relate to her experience going on this adventure that she's not supposed to be doing.” ([15:14])

Notable Quotes/Readings from True Grit

• Maddie’s resilience:

  “I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task... If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.” ([18:03])

• Maddie’s wit and sharpness:

  “I say that of ponies. I've known some horses and a good many more pigs who I believe harbored evil intent in their hearts. I'll go further and say that all cats are wicked, though often useful. Who has not seen Satan in their sly faces?” ([21:07])

• Her maturity:

  “Little did papa realize that morning that he was never to see us or hold us again, nor would he ever again hearken to the meadow larks... trilling a joyous anthem to spring.” ([21:29])

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In-Depth Literary Discussion

Exploring Character & Justice

• Rooster Cogburn:

  • Embodies rough, Old Testament-style justice ("eye for an eye"); compelling but flawed ([24:26], [25:26]).

    “[Rooster] is just out for justice and that's what she wants.” ([24:26])

    • His “rat writ” scene satirizes legal procedure ([25:54]).

• Maddie Ross:

  • True protagonist; her seriousness, tenacity, and sense of justice drive the novel ([16:45], [18:25]).
  • Grit is redefined—not mere toughness, but character, conviction, and willingness to do what’s right at personal cost ([31:55], [34:12]).

• LaBoeuf (“Le Beef”):

  • Represents lawful, conventional justice; contrasts with Rooster’s roughness ([29:12]).

    “You have this sort of rough justice, you know, shoot from the hip type lawman, and you have the, you know, prideful sort of fancy pants Texas brush popper... There are layers unexplored in this.” ([29:21])

Thematic Exploration: What Is True Grit?

• Grit as tenacity and character, more than physical courage:

  “Maddie's grit, and I think that's ultimately what the title references, is grit of character... She misses her father's funeral because she needs to go avenge her father's death. Some might fault me for missing my own father's funeral, but I had to do what I had to do... those are the passages that speak to her grit.” ([31:55])

• Maddie’s strength transcends stereotype:

  “And she's 14, and that shows you don't—the stereotypes don't really hold. She's incredible and she's tough and she's courageous.” ([33:41])

Books as Escape and Education

• For prisoners, books are “wonderful escape” and sometimes practical resources ([36:16]).

  “If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way that you can do it.” ([37:48])

On the American Legal System

• Ben shares unvarnished criticism of systemic issues:

  • Routine coercion via plea deals; “trial tax” ([40:33])
  • Overwhelming case loads; lack of rehabilitation; prevalence of defendants with untreated mental illness ([42:44])

  “My clients, who are black and brown, in disproportionate percentages... Their public defender... is advising them, ‘you can take this now or you can go to trial later and get something worse.’ It’s an incredibly coercive process.” ([40:33]) “These are the most disenfranchised folks you could come across, and there isn't a soul who has given them a thing in their entire life.” ([44:32])

• His purpose:

  "My view is that it's a very human view... My clients are no different than you or me or anybody else. And they deserve, just like anyone else, to have an advocate, to have someone go into court and stand up for them and speak on their behalf." ([45:15])

• On the need for legal reform:

  “A lot of this goes to education. It goes to who the decision makers are... even if it were the case that they could understand really what's going on and fully appreciate the facts of the case... they wouldn't have time... and so it results in sort of a rubber stamp process.” ([47:39])

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• Books Beyond Bars Letters ([07:43]–[08:59]):

  "I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a TV. Thanks for supporting my request and bringing hope to my world. It's kind of like fire at the end of a torch." ([08:59])

• Maddie’s Voice in True Grit ([18:04]):

  “I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task.”
  “If you want anything done right, you have to do it yourself.”

• “Rat writ” scene from True Grit ([25:54]):

  “Dear. Excuse me, Mr. Rat, I have a writ here. It's a rat writ... and then he just shoots the rat.”

• On the Purpose of Books in Prison ([37:48]):

  “If you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way...”

• Critique of the Legal System ([40:33]):

  "It's not a system of trials, but of pleas... If you get a plea offer of, say, five years… you turn that down and go to trial... you're gonna get a sentence of eight years... There isn't a whole lot of sophistication there."

• Lightning Round: Best Rooster Cogburn ([49:16]):

  "Jeff Bridges, no question... The old one is... It’s trash."
  (a tongue-in-cheek, unapologetic verdict)

• If Judges Could Read One Book ([51:54]):

  "Native Son... something to remind the judges that... every one of these people... is a human being and is a complex individual with a range of emotions."

• Where to Donate ([53:58]):

  "They can go to booksbeyondbars.org... We seek out the books that our clients ask for... We want money so we can buy books for our clients, and we want to get them the books they want to read. And that’s all your donation does. 100%."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:41] – Ben describes public defense and the origins of Books Beyond Bars
• [05:19] – Examples of requested books from incarcerated individuals
• [07:43] – Reading “thank you” letters from inmates
• [10:18] – Ben’s approach to reading and why True Grit
• [12:31] – Summary of True Grit plot
• [18:03] – Maddie’s resilience and memorable quotes
• [21:07] – Ben reads passages highlighting Maddie’s unique voice
• [24:26] – On Rooster Cogburn and the justice system
• [31:55] – Discussion about the meaning of “true grit”
• [36:16] – Why books matter to the incarcerated; books as “escape”
• [40:33] – Flaws and coercion in the US legal system
• [45:15] – Ben’s motivation for public defense work
• [49:16] – Lightning round: Bridges vs. Wayne as Rooster
• [51:54] – Book he’d have judges read: Native Son
• [53:58] – Books Beyond Bars donation info

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a rich, candid conversation about the transformative power of reading, the raw realities of the American legal system, and the enduring literary resonance of True Grit. Ben Schatz’s commitment to his clients—through both advocacy and the dignity of literacy—shows literature’s power to foster humanity even in the most challenging environments. The unique voice of Maddie Ross is a bridge connecting these worlds: her “true grit” echoes through every page, just as Ben’s compassion rings in every book sent behind the wall.

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For More Information:

• Books Beyond Bars: booksbeyondbars.org
• Read along with the podcast: Old School Bookshop List

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Transcript

[Ben Schatz]

Your planet is now marked for death.

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[Ben Schatz]

We will protect you as a family.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Light em up, Johnny.

[Marvel Studios Announcer]

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[Shiloh Brooks]

That is fantastic.

[Marvel Studios Announcer]

And critics say it's one of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four first steps now streaming on Disney. Rated PG 13.

[Shiloh Brooks]

What time is it, Ben?

[Marvel Studios Announcer]

It's Clobber Dawn.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Hi, I'm Shiloh Brooks. I'm a professor and CEO, and I believe reading good books makes us better men. Today I'm speaking with Ben Schatz. Ben is a public defender who's represented clients in federal and state courts at all levels. He's also the founder of Books Beyond Bars, which sends free reading materials to New York's prisons and jails. True Grit by Charles portis, published in 1968, changed Ben's life. Today I'm asking him why. This is old school. Ben Shatz, welcome to old school.

[Ben Schatz]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Shiloh Brooks]

I'm happy you're here. You know, I learned about you because a listener wrote me and tipped me off to an organization that I want to talk about in a moment. Books Beyond Bars. I want to hear about Books Beyond Bars. I want to hear the story of how it started, why you started it. Then we'll talk about True Grit. And then later come back to Books Beyond Bars because I got some, some big questions. But I think before we get to True Grit, we should establish that you do this extraordinary thing for people with books.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah, thanks. So just by way of professional background, I'm an attorney, I'm a public defender, which means I represent people who cannot afford a lawyer who are involved in the criminal legal system and can't pay someone to represent them in their legal proceedings. But I'm a specific kind of public defender. It's a sort of a niche practice which is post conviction work. So my organization is called the center for Appellate Litigation. We represent clients in Manhattan and the Bronx who have already been convicted of crimes, sometimes very serious crimes, the most serious crimes you can imagine, and have been sentenced to sometimes extraordinarily long prison sentences and are essentially living the rest of their lives, or a substantial chunk of the rest of their lives in little, little boxes in the middle of nowhere in New York State. And the idea for Books Beyond Bars came out of my early interactions with my clients when I started to work at the center for Appellate Litigation. And those interactions went something like, I'm your lawyer. You didn't seek me out. You didn't hire me, you're getting me for free. It's a real uphill battle that we've got ahead. You've already been convicted by a jury. You've been sentenced to 20 years in prison, and it's going to be another year before we even get your paperwork from the court. And you know, I want to be optimistic, but I have to be realistic. You know, chances aren't great. Right. And so these are the kinds of conversations that you have to have with clients early on in your, in your relationship. And these are long running relationships. And I want my clients to trust me and I want them to understand that I really do care about them as people, that they're not paperwork. You know, they, they have lives that I want to understand that although it may be the case that they have done bad things, and many of them, most of them would be the first to acknowledge that, that they are not the, they are not just the sum of those things. They are complex human beings with hopes and aspirations and nuances. And I really wanted to find a way to honor that sort of aspect of the work. Yeah. Not only because I wanted my clients to build a relationship with my clients, just because I think it's the right thing to do. You know, we're only here on this planet for a short period of time and these are the people I'm spending a lot of time with. And I want to make sure they know that I care about them. So it started just me and my office mate, we just started asking our clients what they would want to read because we don't have funds to send them and we don't have legal work to give them for a very long period of time. And the responses that we got were as diverse as you might imagine from any, any population that you'd ask what they want.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Give me some examples of the kind of books, guys. Is it Men and Women both? Yeah, give me some examples of the kind of books people are requesting.

[Ben Schatz]

There's a lot of, a lot of escape stuff. So a lot of, you know, Stephen King, James Patterson thriller type stuff. I mean, I'm giving you examples, but I can't tell you how broad the scope is. There's, you know, people that say there's a book from my, from my childhood that I can't, you know, I haven't read, you know, it's a book of poems from the Dominican Republic. Like, find that for me. Right? This isn't, you know, we send you what we happen to have laying around. We buy the books that they ask us to send them. Yeah, because that, I think, is where the real value comes in. It's. It's, you know, it's one thing to get, you know, a paperback, you know, an airport paperback that you may or may not be interested in, but it's another thing to get the exact book that you want to read.

[Shiloh Brooks]

And as I understand it, you've brought with you some letters that incarcerated people have written to you in some remarks, and I think it would be powerful to share what they think about what you're doing.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. And. And this is. I mean, so we send hundreds and hundreds of books a month into. And this is just in New York. So these. There are about 50 prisons in New York. We focus primarily on prisons, but also if someone writes us from a jail, like a local jail, or from Rikers island, which is the. The jail in. In Manhattan, you know, we. We send. We send books anywhere where they will be accepted, and oftentimes they are not accepted. They're rejected by the prisons. Our job, we are not censors of. We have no agenda. We have no political aim. We don't try to take a role of, you know, feeling like we need to educate anyone. This is what, what would feel good for you to read. That's what we want to send you. Yeah, that's the, the philosophy. And we send hundreds of books a month, obviously thousands a year. And we've been doing this for a decade, so we're. We're talking a lot of books and we get a lot, a lot, a lot of thank you letters. And it's all. It's very touching because all the letters come in. In. You know, there's no Internet.

[Shiloh Brooks]

They're handwritten, right?

[Ben Schatz]

They're handwritten.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You've got a piece of old school line.

[Ben Schatz]

This is lined notebook paper with a

[Shiloh Brooks]

pink stripe down the side, man. Like, that's what I like. I'm. This is old school.

[Ben Schatz]

So these are all. I just pulled this.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. So. So, I mean, give us a couple. Like, let's. Let's hear it.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You know, you don't have to read the who.

[Ben Schatz]

I'll start to read and you can tell me what. So these are all from. From 2025. Dear Books Beyond Bars, first let me thank you from all the readers behind the wall. You may not know how much a good book does for the mind or how much you may keep a person sane. So thank y' all for doing what y' all do. I'm a big mystery thrillers fan. I love Lee Child, the Jack Reacher series if you have any in stock. Even if I've read them already, I would love to read them again. Beautiful man. Dear Books Beyond Bars. Hello, my name is Christopher and I've been incarcerated since 2024. Fellow prisoner gave me your information and stated you can assist in providing me with books. Unfortunately, we do not have access to a library. I'm not sure why. Books are an essential part of society, rehabilitation, humanity. And it's a shame that this prison which he names, doesn't allow us to use its library and resources. My favorite genres to your question, anything mental health related. Fiction, crime, psych, thrillers, Romantasy.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Love it.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. All right, I'll do one more. Yeah. Is that okay?

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. I mean, this is amazing.

[Ben Schatz]

Okay. Yeah. Good day to the book program. I just want to say thank you for such a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to bridge the gap between education and free reading from such a dark place. I really enjoy it and words cannot explain how much this means to me in such a down state of mind I am in some of the time I've fallen in love with reading and have no need for a tv. Thanks for supporting my request and bringing hope to my world. It's kind of like fire at the end of a torch. Wow. To go back to your original point, it's. It's really, you know exactly what they want and information, access to information is one of the most important things. And that's some. That's the first thing to go once you are ensnared in our system.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You know, you. I'm going to say this to you and I mean it with all my heart. You're a man of compassion. Thank you. What you said a minute ago, and then reading these letters, it's. It's amazing. And that is a value and a virtue and a principle that we don't have enough of today in our world. So I'm really grateful to you.

[Ben Schatz]

Thank you.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about true grit. Let's talk about true grit.

[Ben Schatz]

Oh, love it. I forgot we were going to get to.

[Shiloh Brooks]

No, man, we're going to get to true. I can't not get to True Grit.

[Ben Schatz]

No, that's the point. Point.

[Shiloh Brooks]

So I'm curious. I mean, why did you choose this book for today? We're gonna tell people what it's about in a minute. But why did you choose that book?

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. And I don't think it's gonna be hard for you to find guests on this show that come in with who are brilliant people who have brilliant books with brilliant intellectual Ideas in them. I would not be one of those guests. I think part of the reason that I, that I stopped reading was because I was, you know, struggling to get more out of it than I, you know, had the capacity to get. And recently I've sort of just fallen back in love with the story and yeah, enjoying the poignancy and the humor in fiction. And I've been, I mean, I've been on a tear like you would not believe. The past year or so. I've read almost all Toni Morrison books, almost all Philip Roth, Jane Austen, just like, you know, just. It's all good stuff, real, a real gamut. Just no, you know, no focus, just picking. I mean, and you know, just coming across these books. I live in Brooklyn and you can pick a book up off the street

[Shiloh Brooks]

and you have a day job. How do you fit this in? I get letters all the time from people saying, man, how do I read? I've got to work. You're a lawyer. I mean, so when do you read? How do you fit this in?

[Ben Schatz]

I mean, I read right before I go to bed. But I think there's a couple things here. One is, and there's a Stephen King book that's a non fiction Stephen King book. I think it's called On Writing or something like that. It's just his, it's a little autobiographical, but he talks about learning to just read in little spurts.

[Shiloh Brooks]

And that's what you do.

[Ben Schatz]

It mostly needs to be when you're gonna pick up your phone, you pick up the book instead.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Not a bad habit. That's great.

[Ben Schatz]

That's a good practice and really, really works.

[Shiloh Brooks]

So for people who haven't read True Grit, can you just give us, so that you and I can talk a little bit about the content of the book? Can you give us a brief summary, you know, of what this book is about, as though you're trying to sell it to one of your buddies who, you know, you're trying to get them to.

[Ben Schatz]

Can I just read from it?

[Shiloh Brooks]

I mean, we can in a minute, but just summarize what it's about. Like the arc of the story as simply as possible.

[Ben Schatz]

The story as simply as possible. And this is where I was going to, this is where I was going to go with. I mean, you can read the first paragraph and know exactly what the entire book is about. It's about a young girl who lives in Arkansas whose father is murdered by a farmhand, essentially who is living on their property. And she goes to avenge her father's death. And it's about her adventure from her home in Arkansas to a. Essentially like a border town in Arkansas. This is in the 1800s, you know, as the United States were still forming. And she goes into Choctaw Nation and Cherokee Nation and pursues this outlaw who is. Who murdered her dad.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, yeah. And this is Maddie Ross is her name. And she's pursuing the outlaw Tom Cheney. And she, along the way, is looking for vengeance. And she meets one of the most famous characters in Western American literature named Rooster Cogburn. And we should talk about all of that. But one of the things that I love about your book pick is I'm a Texan, and one of my favorite genres is Western American literature. And I'm constantly.

[Ben Schatz]

No kidding. People.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Oh, yeah. People who talk to me all the time are. I'm talking about Westerns, and don't get me started. Westerns are perennially attractive books to men. I can remember my grandfather sitting and reading one of my favorite Western authors, a guy named Louis Lamour.

[Ben Schatz]

Oh, yeah, we get a lot of Louis.

[Shiloh Brooks]

I bet you. Yeah, I do. That's a man. He's a. He's, you know, among men. He's a real. So, you know, Louis Lamour, one of my favorite authors, period, is a literary western writer named Larry McMurtry who wrote oh, yeah, Lonesome Dub, but many others, Terms of Endearment and the Last Picture Show. So I want to ask you this question because you're clearly True Grit has spoken to you. The west, the American west, and Westerns of the kind that this one sort of is. Speaks to people. And it's a genre particularly that males gravitate to. You know, they love the way, you know, sci fi, the West, Westerns in particular. What is it about the world of True Grit and tell us about that world that you find attractive and we'll talk about the story more. But I'm just curious, like, what you're.

[Ben Schatz]

You're where.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You're not even from the West. Like, you don't even. Right. Why. Why are you trying to be a cowboy with the True Grit people?

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. I don't have. I don't know that that component of the book is what attracts me. Yeah. To it. It's. It's certainly, you know, I mean, there's certainly excitement in the. All of the typical Western, you know, outlaws and guns. Yeah. I mean, there's horse chase, outlaws and guns, and just all kinds of.

[Shiloh Brooks]

There's justice, you know, and that's West.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure you remember from the book there's like a healthy dose of, you know, criticism for lawyers and they're in the way of.

[Shiloh Brooks]

We're going to talk about it.

[Ben Schatz]

Justice. Right. You know, it's an exciting, I mean it's, it's the, the, you're guaranteed all of that excitement. But I don't know, and I've read Larry McMurtry, although not lonesome Dove. I don't know that, that I'm drawn in particular to that, you know, any of those tropes necessarily. I think what is interesting to me in particular about this book is what is unique to it at least, maybe not totally unique, but at least somewhat different from the sort of standard classic Western which is that you have Rooster Cogburn, who is your, you know, classic John Wayne outlaw catcher, you know, but the protagonist is a 14 year old girl and a lot of the really touching and poignant moments from the book relate to her experience going on this adventure that she's not supposed to be doing. And so I think it would be a much less interest, I mean it wouldn't be a book if it was just Rooster Cogburn chasing Tom Cheney.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, that's right. But what it does have that, and I agree with you on that. And we need to talk about Matty Ross. What it does have that the quintessential western has is very, very clear, good versus evil. Now this can be presented in a cartoonish way, white hat and black hat, the sheriff and the outlaw. But this book is about seeking justice and in some ways about seeking vengeance. And that's true of a spaghetti Western. That's true of the worst cartoon western. You know what I'm talk about. And it's true in a deeper way. You're absolutely right in a deeper way of this book. So let's get to what you're attracted to, which is this young 14 year old woman, Maddie Ross. She has got to be the voice of. Maddie Ross has got to be one of the most unique and enduring voices in all of American literature. When you hear her talk in, you cannot help but know, if you've read this book, that's Maddie Ross talking. She doesn't talk like anybody else.

[Ben Schatz]

Let me read a, let me read a quotation.

[Shiloh Brooks]

This is, she goes into a town, she's looking for somebody who killed her father, Tom Chaney. And she goes into this town and she sees a hanging, a good old fashioned western hanging. Like guys are hanging and she's going to the undertaker to go see her father's dead. Body. And this will give you a sense of her voice. I mean, she's 14 and she just saw some dudes hung and she's on her own going to try to find her father's dead body and avenge his killer.

[Ben Schatz]

And she says this.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Perhaps you can imagine how painful it was for us to go directly from that appalling scene to the undertakers where my father lay dead. Nevertheless, it had to be done. I have never been one to flinch or crawfish when faced with an unpleasant task. She says later, if you want to do anything done right, you have to do it yourself. Like, that's her attitude.

[Ben Schatz]

I mean, these are just tremendously grown up.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah.

[Ben Schatz]

You know, sort of thoughts for a, for a, for a child. But there's that hum, there's humor there. There's, you know, sort of child, some childish sweetness, but also like this unbelievable maturity. And I don't know if this is a coming of age story of the kind of, you know.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah.

[Ben Schatz]

But, you know, it has that element.

[Shiloh Brooks]

This episode is brought to you by Of Roughnecks and Riches, the incredible new book from Dan Doyle. Picture this. It's November 2008. The economy is in free fall. You're lying awake at three in the morning, your family asleep beside you, and every dollar you have is riding on a deal that's fallen apart in Oklahoma. What do you do? You quit or you bet everything on yourself. Of rough necks and Riches is the true story of how Dan Doyle built a fracking startup from nothing during the worst financial crisis in a generation. It's raw, it's real, it's. And Gregory Zuckerman of the Wall Street Journal calls it, quote, a rollicking ride that makes for a compelling read. If you love stories about grit, risk, and the American entrepreneurial spirit, this is one for you. This isn't a business book written from a corner office. It's roughnecks, con men, busted deals, and a father fighting to keep his family afloat. Never give up. Never stop when going through hell. Keep going. Grab your copy right now on Amazon, Barnes and Noble or Simon and Schuster. Do it today before you forget. You won't put it down. You know, Maddie's voice is one of the most unique in my view, in American literature. Can you give us so people can hear her, the quintessential Maddie Ross?

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. And, and there, there's, to me, there's, in her voice you find sort of the full range of human emotion. And you're right, it is a very sort of special voice that Portis gives her and so I have two passages I want to focus on. Yeah, please. One is quite light hearted and one is quite sad. And it's not hard to imagine her saying either of these. So here's the funny one she's talking about. Her father was murdered after going to another town to buy some horses. Okay. And so that's just to tee it up. She says, I hated these ponies for the part they played in my father's death. But now I realize the notion was fanciful, that it was wrong to charge blame to these pretty beasts who knew neither good nor evil, but only innocence. I say that of ponies. I've known some horses and a good many more pigs who I believe harbor harbored evil intent in their hearts. I'll go further and say that all cats are wicked, though often useful. Who has not seen Satan in their sly faces?

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, she's got an opinion about everything.

[Ben Schatz]

Incredibly opinionated. Incredibly matter of fact.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah.

[Ben Schatz]

Right. Then she goes on to quote a Bible verse about which I did look up, which has to do with the devil hogs being possessed by the devil. Yeah. And then, you know, shortly before that. And this doesn't really need teeing up. Little did papa realize that morning that he was never to see us or hold us again, nor would he ever again hearken to the meadow larks of Yell county, trilling a joyous anthem to spring. These are just, I mean, you know, 14, I think 14 early teens. You know, it's, it's, it's really, really beautiful how he makes this sort of internal monologue she's having or whatever she's giving to the reader so believable because it's easy to, it would be easy to write this character and say, that's not a, that's not a, you know, a teenager. You completely understand who she is without a lot of explanation about who she is. You learn, you know, she's religious, she takes care of her mom, she's good with numbers, she sort of grew up quickly, all that stuff. But it's through these kind of passages like I'm describing that you really understand the kind of person she is and what's driving her to do this.

[Shiloh Brooks]

She's a severe, level headed, pious, opinionated 14 year old girl who's not freaking kidding around. Let's talk about some of the other great characters in the book, you know, because I want to put Maddie in dialogue with them. So she goes on this journey to find the killer of her father. And one of the things that she says at the beginning, she goes around, talking to people, and she says, I need to find help. I want to find a man of true grit. I want to find a man of grit. And they give her some names and she, you know, they're like, well, so and so. And then there's so and so, and then there's Rooster Cogburn. I don't know if you want to deal with Rooster Cogburn. Right. This guy a little bit, he's a little bit off his rocker. He's a drinker, he's got an eye patch. He's kind of an old world type of guy. He's been known to be to rough up people a little bit more than he should. He gets in trouble with the law, even though he's a marshal, because sometimes he kind of ignores the norms of, you know, legal procedure that you would know a lot about in his arrests and these kinds of things. And so he's a rough dude. Talk to us about Rooster and why does she choose him? Because of all the people, that's who she chooses. And that's the guy who, as you mentioned, if you watch the films, there's been two made, one with John Wayne, one with Jeff Bridges, that you gotta get the star for. You gotta get somebody. So what is, what is the deal with Rooster Cogburn?

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah, and, and I totally agree with you. The, the character is just monumental. Yeah, I have opinions about the movies, which, you know. Yeah, we can get to this time. But, but yeah, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're right. This, this, you know, initial scene where he's introduced, which is, you know, he's, she's getting a list from the sheriff of the available marshals to accompany her on this mission to try to find her father's killer. And some are excellent trackers and some are very noble and law abiding and make sure that they always bring in their, the culprit alive. And what she learns about Rooster is just, he's out for justice and that's what she wants. And there is a theme throughout the book of what real justice looks like, because there are lawyers that are gumming up the, you know, this is, this is, you know, this is the, the century of the origins of due process. Yeah, right.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You make everything difficult for Rooster. Like he could just arrest people and hang them or get them in jail, but people like you are trying to give them rights.

[Ben Schatz]

And there's a scene, there's a, there's a scene in the book shortly thereafter where there he, you know, Rooster lives in the back of a grocery, a Chinese grocery store, and he sees a rat on the floor eating some of the meal out of the corner of the bag. And he pulls out his gun to shoot it and he says, wait, this is how you have to do it now.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah.

[Ben Schatz]

Dear. Excuse me, Mr. Rat, I have a writ here. It's a rat writ. It is. I have to serve it upon you before I can take you in. And then he just shoots the rat. Yeah.

[Shiloh Brooks]

That's justice.

[Ben Schatz]

Right? So these are the qualities that are appealing to Maddie.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, she loves these qualities. And they have such a wonder. I have an 8 year old daughter. And when I was looking at the way this is going to sound, bizarre maybe, but when I'm looking at the way Rooster and Maddie interact, I kind of was reminded of my daughter and me. Like, I'm a little bit rougher, I'm a Texan, whatever. She's young, cute, very polished, and like, sometimes I feel like I'm corrupt in this little girl, but I care a lot about her. And you get the, the relationship between Maddie and Rooster, the way it evolves is really beautiful because he is rough and. And she's like, I'll pay you to, to go with me. And he's like, yeah, I can't take little girl, I'm sorry. And he's. She's like, no, I'm coming, I'm coming. And then he's like, ah, jeez. And then they, you know, they go, she goes. And there he's always trying to get rid of her. Like, you know, let's. Let's take off and then leave her behind and she'll have to go home and boy, she always shows up and she always. And so it's a beautiful relationship, I think, oddly sort of father daughter relationship. You know, I'm curious what you make of this. You've talked about justice in this book. I can see why you're attracted to it. You're a lawyer. Your deepest concern is justice. This makes some sense to me. I'm gonna give you a metaphor or at least an interpretation. Maddie seems to be seeking justice as eye for an eye. She's like, look, you killed. You kill my father, I'm about to go kill you. Rooster only has one eye. In other words, he has an eye patch on.

[Ben Schatz]

I knew you were gonna get out ahead of me in terms of that.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, that's my job. So he has. There's this. He is the man who is going to serve the kind of old fashioned, old testament eye for an Eye justice. And that's what she wants. And there's all kinds of things wrong with that. And it's a good thing you exist, because even in our system, there's all kinds of things wrong with that. But on the other hand, there's something kind of appealing about that, but. Right.

[Ben Schatz]

Because when I'm reading this book, like, you know what I want?

[Shiloh Brooks]

I don't want Rooster to enforce the law. I don't want the pistol.

[Ben Schatz]

I don't want the lawyers to intervene and save Tom Chaney.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, darn right. There's a third character. Let's complicate this a little bit more. We talk about the great care. Let's get one more. He's a Texan. I can't help it. Yep, it's kind of a. I'm a Texan. I'm a little offended, but it's true. This guy named Le Beef, which. I think it's spelled Le Bouf. It's like a, you know, French thing. But it's his name, Le Beef, which I like because it's Texan Beef. You know what I mean? But he gets in there, and in the Coen Brothers movie, he's played by Matt Damon. And he's kind of pretty the way Matt Damon is. He comes in like a Texan. He's got his shiny spurs, and he's got his big, beautiful horse and got his nice hat. And he's real good. Look. He's got these revolvers that are just beautiful and, like, got pearl handles or something like that. And he's, you know, the Texan. And he's got a kind of nobility to him. In other words, he's more respectful of the law than Rooster. He's hurt a rooster. And he's a. He's a man of a kind of more sophisticated justice. We gotta arrest this guy. Take and try him and that kind of stuff. And Mattie in him, you know, he also thinks she's a little girl and should get the heck out of the way. But what role do you see LaBeouf playing and how does he add to this interesting trio of characters seeking justice?

[Ben Schatz]

Well, now you're making me think about. More about the symbolic role that, you know, these two. These two sort of modes of justice come accompany her.

[Shiloh Brooks]

I think that might be.

[Ben Schatz]

I mean, I think you're totally right. And this is, like. This is the beauty of this book. It's like, I needn't have thought of any of that in order to just love this book. I mean, I'm sure there are layers Unexplored in this. And what you're saying is very, I hadn't thought about it, but it's very true and very, very beautiful. There's sort of this, you have this sort of rough justice, you know, shoot from the hip type lawman, and you have the, you know, prideful sort of fancy pants Texas brush popper as, as, you know, he, you know, takes great pride in his work, takes pride in being a Texas Ranger. Some of the funnier parts in the book are the interchanges that LaBeouf and Rooster have with each other, which all sort of run the, you know, one example which I think is pretty characteristic is, you know, LaBeouf talking about how, you know, he. You haven't known thirst until you drink out of a, you know, a puddle left in a, a hoof print of a horse and be grateful for it. And. Yeah, and Rooster responds by saying, if I, you know, if there was ever a Texas Ranger that I meet that didn't tell me about how they drank out of a hoof print, you know, I'd shake his hand.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Sure, I know it. So, I mean, what do you think? So let's, you know, the novel's called True Grit, and I wonder what it means to have grit. And I wonder whether when you're looking at that title, True Grit, are we supposed to apply that to Matty more than to Rooster? Because Maddie, in the end, man, there's a, there's a big climactic scene. I don't want to talk about it. But she ends up having her arm amputated. She kind of becomes this, this kind of rough older woman. You know, there's a. Where she's, you know, she's telling the story as an older woman and you think about True Grit, you don't think about a 14 year old girl having true Grit. But you get to the end of the book and you think, man, Maddie is the one that's right with the True grit. And. But that's not to take anything away from Rooster, because I love and wish I was. I'm going to be. I'm serious. I fantasize about being like Rooster Cog. I want to be that guy. I love that character. Even though Rooster is like, he's a drunk and he's, he's a bit rough around the edges and he's kind of ignorant and stubborn. You still are like, I don't love that guy. So my question is here about grit. What is True Grit? What are we taking away from this about grit? What does it mean to be A person, a woman, or a man of grit.

[Ben Schatz]

I think that's, I think that's your, your, your reading of that. I totally agree with it. I, I think that Rooster's grit is the sort of two dimensional grit that, you know, you can, you can just sort of compile the adjectives. You know, it's someone who, you know, you know, is, is, you know, going to do what it takes. And someone who, you know, will withstand, you know, a great deal of, you know, pain to reach their goal and is persistent. And, you know, he embodies all of those things. He's the John Wayne, you know, he's going to go out and get his man no matter, you know, no matter the cost kind of Maddie's grit. And I think that's ultimately what the title references is, you know, grit of character. And you know, there are passages in there where she says things like, you know, she misses her father's funeral because she needs to go avenge her father's death. And she says, some might fault me for missing my own father's funeral, but I had to do what I had to do. And, and those are the passages that I think really speak to her grit.

[Shiloh Brooks]

I agree. What I love about it is Rooster is, I think the reason I'm attracted to him is he's a manly man. And I like a good manly man. Mattie is manly. I mean, I hate to say that because it's a womanly. She's certainly effeminate and very articulate, but there's something about her that you wouldn't associate with the female that I really admire. And I think Port is a genius in making this young 14 year old girl, she's more manly than I am. And I'm like, she's a 14 year old girl and she's making me feel inadequate. And so that's what I love about her. And that in that grit, there's nothing

[Ben Schatz]

at all unbelievable about her character though, which I think is what is. So It's.

[Shiloh Brooks]

And she's 14 and that shows that you don't, the stereotypes don't really hold. She's incredible and she's tough and she's courageous.

[Ben Schatz]

Right. And, and I'm just recalling one other scene where she's negotiating. You know, this isn't about being, you know, tough out in the, in the plains. This is her, you know, she gets to the town and she has to negotiate with the stock trader, the person who sold the horses to her dad, and she says $325 and he says $100 and they, they wind up at $325.

[Shiloh Brooks]

She's not kidding around. I love that about her. And that shows that grit is not, you know, is not for one type. I mean, you know, that can be, that's a characteristic that can be applied to and used by and embraced by a wide variety of people.

[Ben Schatz]

She uses the tools that she has. Yeah, right. Including her lawyer back home.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Absolutely.

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[Shiloh Brooks]

The word of the day is nubbin. It's a word I think we have to bring back. It's a good Southernism. Let me read you this. This word nubbin comes up in True Grit. This is when Rooster Cogburn, the main character, sees Little Maddie Ross, 14 year old girl pull out a gigantic cult pistol. And he can't even believe that she's big enough to hold this thing. He says, by God, a Colt's Dragoon. Why you are no bigger than a corn nubbin. What are you doing with that pistol? Nubbin means something that's a little small part or a little bit. So this is a nubbin of corn, little baby carrots, a little nubbin. I got a little short daughter. She's a little nubbin walking around. Corn nubbin. Bring it back. I'm curious about the person out there or maybe the person behind bars. I don't know who, what is it that they're suffering from or that they might be in search of where if they read True Grit, it would shed light on it. You see what I mean? Like what, what kind of medicine is this book for the soul? What kind of enlightenment does it provide? What are, what is the person search for when they're reading True Grit? You found it in the book. What is that?

[Ben Schatz]

It's a great question. And I mean, I think ultimately, you know, I wish I, I wish I had sent this in to, into the prison so I could hear. You know, if I had more time, I totally would. To hear from, like, hear from our, our. The participant. I say clients. They're not my clients. They're participants in the program. What, what this book does for them and to. To sort of get a firsthand account, if I had to guess. It's just wonderful. Escape. And escape is, you know, a term associated often with prison. Obviously, we're talking about a mental escape here. It's a different experience. And one thing that I've learned from my clients over the years about prison is that it's tremendously, you know. You know, you know, challenging in many different ways, but it's also just very boring. Yeah. And you're sitting there all day and, you know, you have a TV that, you know, you might have access to that has a few channels, and you're watching whatever's daytime TV that's just completely unfulfilling. It's a totally different experience when you have a book in front of you and you can get lost in that book. And I think escape is one of the. In the initial letter, I read one of the letters, I read one of the primary. The primary sort of points of the program. It's, if you want to be in a different place than your physical environment allows, this is one way that you can do it.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You can sit in a prison cell and adventure around the world. I mean, that's a beautiful thing that books can do completely.

[Ben Schatz]

And, you know, we have participants who are just essentially, they want. They're ready to start a business when they're done with their time, with their bid, and they want books about, you know, they, you know, give me the. The manual for elevator repair for New York city, you know, 2025. Right. Like, they want information, and they want to, you know, they want to learn. Or give me law books so I can understand what is happening to me or, you know, give me something that I can, you know, I can talk with people around me about. But, you know, I think a big part of this is escape.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. Let me. Let me ask you this question, because you deal a lot with folks behind bars who are in difficult circumstances. Clearly, you were called to this work. You do public defenders work. And some you've already mentioned, sometimes it's thankless working with these people. They've already been convicted. I'm gonna preface this question by saying this. The American justice system is an attorney achievement in the world. That there are things like due process, that there are things like Miranda rights, that there's something like the Constitution, that people are innocent until presumed guilty, that there's a fair trial process. All that is one of the greatest achievements in the history of the west. That I am a professor of political philosophy, and I talk to students about all the time. There are some things wrong with every legal system, and I was hoping you would get there in ours too. In ours too. So from a guy on the ground, boots on the ground, acknowledging as both of us, I think would, that what the American justice system is, is an achievement and gets it right a lot of the time and is infinitely superior to all kinds of other alternatives in the world. What do you think is the greatest drawback, flaw, or problem that you see today in the work that you do in the legal.

[Ben Schatz]

It's hard to know where to begin, because for the last, you know, 12 years, I've essentially immersed myself in those problems. There are problems with respect to convicting people who are innocent. Right. That's a. That is an example that we know happens. We know happens a lot. I have clients who I am convinced are innocent of the crimes they've been convicted of, and I can't get them out of prison. Yeah. There are problems with respect to racism in the system, with respect to police behavior. I'm being somewhat polite in my descriptions of these things. I don't. I don't know where.

[Shiloh Brooks]

It's a free press.

[Ben Schatz]

You say what you want. Oh, you say whatever you want. Okay. The. The. The. You know, I see it firsthand. The cops are racist. It affects my clients, who are black and brown, in disproportionate percentages. The system itself is stacked so powerfully in favor of the prosecution that even if you have. I like to think I'm like, a pretty good lawyer. Right. But even if I have, I have a docket of more cases than I can possibly handle. And that's true of appellate defenders, and that's definitely true of. Of. Of. Of trial defenders who are meeting their clients to decide what to do. It is a system not of trials, but of pleas. So you get an offer and you can decide, do I take this offer and go to prison and admit my guilt, or do I exercise my constitutional right to have the government prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? And there is a tax to doing that. It's called a trial tax. It's a real thing, although the courts wouldn't acknowledge it. The tax goes like. If you get a plea offer of, say, five years and you admit guilt for, say, assault, and you decide to turn that down and go to trial and exercise your right to have the prosecution prove you guilty, you're gonna get a sentence of eight years. Yeah, I'm just making those figures up. But that's how it plays out, and it plays out every day. And my clients are Doing nothing other than exercising their right to go to trial. So it is an incredibly coercive process for people who are involved in the system, whether or not they've committed the crimes they've been accused of.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Can you give me an example of some of the clients that you've dealt with that where you've really seen some problems with the justice system? What does it look like on the ground?

[Ben Schatz]

Right. You know, apart from all of the sort of global problems you can identify about the justice system on the ground, it looks like a lot of very, very mentally ill people who have, you know, all of the luxuries that I've experienced in their life, every one of those luxuries. They've been kicked in the head, basically. And it. It is. They are a product of abuse. They have suffered terrible things, they have terrible mental illness. They have not had the opportunities that you and I have had in. In a variety of contexts. And they are essentially, instead of being given those opportunities by our government, by our system, they are sent to prison, and they're not rehabilitated in the prison. They just sit there for a while and they come back out. The. The suggestion that these institutions are correctional institutions is just a euphemism. It's really a little. A little cage to put people in because we don't know what else to do with them. And it's a problem of resources, it's a problem of lack of education, and it's a problem of sort of adhering to a problem of politics about what's scary for people and not really getting at what would help the lives of our fellow citizens. These are the most disenfranchised folks you could come across, and there isn't a soul who has given them a thing in their entire life. So on the ground, that looks like people who are clearly addicted to drugs, not being able to get out of these patterns and not being given help.

[Shiloh Brooks]

That's very articulate, and it provides a nice contrast to what I said about the merits of our justice system, which are real. Given that that's the case, what you said, and I'm making the argument, and I don't know that you would disagree. If you can, you should. That there are two sides to the coin, that it's both got its great merits and its great problems. And you are face to face with those problems, boots on the ground every day, and I can tell you feel passionately about it. Why do you keep getting out of bed doing what you do every morning? Because I suspect you could make a lot More money. I suspect you could do all kinds of things.

[Ben Schatz]

In fact, I did.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. And so I want to know. I want to know, from a guy who feels called to a noble purpose, why do you get out of bed every morning? What is it that makes you do this? Knowing what you know and about the problems?

[Ben Schatz]

Right. Well, I want to, you know, I think there are a lot of different motivations for public defenders as to why they do this work. So this is just my personal. My personal reason. I think there are a lot of people that would give a. A much more sort of anti state, anti government response. I'm not necessarily there, although I do, as you can probably tell from my previous answer, harbor some of those views. My view is that it's a very human view, which is that we're all complicated people in this world. We all do good things, we all do bad things. We are nuanced, we are flawed. And my clients are no different than you or me or anybody else. And they deserve, just like anyone else, to have an advocate, to have someone go into court and stand up for them and speak on their behalf. And I want to win, but my goal is to show my clients that somebody cares about them and to, at the end of the day, gain their trust and satisfaction with their representation.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah. And the fact that that's possible, what you just said is precisely the merit of the legal system. I'm talking about that you are allowed to care, that you do get to show what they. What you believe they are innocent or guilty of, that you do get to represent them. That's amazing.

[Ben Schatz]

It's a, you know, it's a very complicated question. And, you know, if you're a public defender, you've thought about, you know, whether you are not serving a role that is, you know, propagating all of the problems that I just described a minute ago. Yeah. Where you are, you are essentially a front for the justice system to funnel all of those people into court to take a plea, to send them to prison. Because the system can then say, well, they were represented by counsel, they had sophisticated lawyer at their side who was advising them as to the best thing to do, when in reality, that the. Their public defender who's sitting next to them really is advising them, look, you can take this now or you can go to trial later and get something worse. Yeah. And it's. There isn't. There isn't a whole lot of sophistication there.

[Shiloh Brooks]

The solutions to this problem, like you're a guy who. You've diagnosed a problem that's real. Do you have thoughts about what could be done to, to make this thing better over the course? You know, you've, you've had a lot of experience on this.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah, a lot of it goes. I mean, this is, this is like, I think a nice point to make. A lot of this goes to education. It goes to who or who the decision makers are. A lot of times in my work, these are judges, a panel of judges just like you see on tv. There's five judges that sit up on a higher bench and you're arguing to them just like you would do in the Supreme Court. Those judges are not always selected because they are the most caring, intelligent people. They are, you know, selected for political reasons, for, you know, willingness to do the work. And frankly, they're overwhelmed with the number of cases they have. And so even if it were the case that they could understand really what's going on and fully appreciate the facts of the case and the circumstances surrounding the crime, they wouldn't have time to do any of that because they have 30 other cases behind them. And so it results in sort of a rubber stamp process where they're making sure some great injustice isn't done and sometimes they're not even right about that and then moving on. And it really does tie into what we were talking about, about, you know, rough justice. Right. Yeah, this is, this, this. These are judges with the imprimatur of Labif, but who are really acting as Rooster. Beautifully put.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You got time for a quick lightning round?

[Ben Schatz]

Sure, yeah, absolutely.

[Shiloh Brooks]

All right, so I gotta ask you this question. True Grit has been made into two famous movies. One with John Wayne as Rooster, one with Jeff Bridges as Rooster. Who's better?

[Ben Schatz]

Jeff Bridges, no question.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Really?

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah. That's maybe controversial.

[Shiloh Brooks]

People been telling me John Wayne for the past.

[Ben Schatz]

People like John Wayne. That movie, that movie is terrible. The, the, the.

[Shiloh Brooks]

You just threw down the gauntlet, man.

[Ben Schatz]

The, the new movie is the, the new movie. The newer movie with Jeff Bridges is

[Shiloh Brooks]

the Cohen brothers version.

[Ben Schatz]

It's very faithful to the book.

[Shiloh Brooks]

It is beautiful.

[Ben Schatz]

And the old one is like, you know. Yeah, the old, the old one is. It's trash.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Do you have a favorite book about law or the justice system? This is a whole genre. I mean, it's a whole thing. Do you have. And if not that, then like a philosophic work, just a book that speaks to your profession?

[Ben Schatz]

You know, I think this is. Yeah, this isn't a, A law book. I, I'd have to think, you know, there's probably all kinds of non Fiction books that I could think of that are, you know, interesting touch on interesting aspects of the law. But philosophy comes in in the form of like, for me, like Seneca letters from a stoic or to a stoic. From a stoic. Yeah. Things that sort of give you a sense of just going back to your question a minute ago, a sense of how you can continue to do this in the face of really tremendous power coming in the other direction.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah.

[Ben Schatz]

Just how to kind of keep your head through all this. Yeah, those, those books are really helpful to me and apply essentially in a lot of other contexts.

[Shiloh Brooks]

So I write like, I'm not even kidding you, tens or twenties letters of recommendation to law school every year. Like it's unbelievable how many letters of recommendation. And so I always want to caution students and be like, you got to make sure law school's right for you. So give me the worst course that you took.

[Ben Schatz]

The.

[Shiloh Brooks]

And that's a hard question because there's not the worst course that you took in law school.

[Ben Schatz]

Property. Yeah, property. Learning about is it boring or what is it?

[Shiloh Brooks]

It's complicated.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah, it's, it's both. It's, you know, it's about, you know, who owns this and you know, if you stand on this piece of land for long enough, if, if it's your property and you know what happens when there's a river throw flowing through it and you know which side of the river you know, do you. Who owns the water? You know, it's just.

[Shiloh Brooks]

I'm already going to sleep. Right.

[Ben Schatz]

It's about, it's about, you know, it's about the importance of property and the ownership of property, which is, you know, not super consistent with the way I see the world.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Yeah, fair enough.

[Ben Schatz]

Yeah.

[Shiloh Brooks]

So if you could hand you, you pointed out a minute ago, judges and there's some problems there. If you could hand every judge one book and they were going to read it, what would that book be?

[Ben Schatz]

I would recommend that judges read something like Native Son, a book about the human being behind the crimes that they're seeing on paper in front of them. So Native Son is about a, A young kid who is a young black kid who's kills a white woman and is prosecuted for it. And. Well, I don't know if I, I don't want to spoil the ending. It's not really a kind of a book you read to for the dramatic conclusion, but it's about his experience going through the process and his sort of role in that process. And you could come up with any number of books that would fit in this same part, but something to. To remind the judges that I'm appearing in front of and that who. Who are, you know, carrying this tremendous responsibility around with them for deciding what happens to people's lives reminds them that every one of these. These people that's in front of them is a human being and is a complex individual with a range of emotions. And all of the things I talked about a moment ago and is more than the sum of the crime. And I think judges know that. If you asked any of them, they'd say, well, sure, of course that's the case. But I think that's something that can, you know, literature and fiction and story can really bring out in a way that, you know, just reading a nonfiction book about mass incarceration can't do. And I think that's important for them to kind of keep in mind all the time. So I probably would recommend. Recommend fiction.

[Shiloh Brooks]

If, if people want to donate to Books Beyond Bars or they want to learn more, where can they go?

[Ben Schatz]

They can go to booksbeyondbars.org that's our website. It's Books Beyond Bars rather than behind bars.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Did I just say behind?

[Ben Schatz]

Nope, you said it right. I just want to. Yeah, no, you're, you're. You're great. I, I there. You know, we didn't invent this concept of books to prisons. This is. There are a number of organizations all similarly named throughout the country. I commend you to donate to any of them. You find one near you to support and volunteer with. Ours is Books Beyond Bars to convey sort of the, hopefully message that we're. That we're trying to communicate and just to. Just to mention again, you know, we. We seek out the books that our clients ask for. So this isn't, you know, you. You have a pile of books in your attic, and you don't know what to do with them. So we don't want those. We want. We want money so we can buy books for our clients, and we want to get them the books they want to read. And that's all your donation does. 100%.

[Shiloh Brooks]

Vince Schatz, thank you for coming on Old School and introducing us to True Grit.

[Ben Schatz]

Thank you for having me.

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