What Steven Pinker Taught this Pro Bodybuilder about Genetics

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode: What Steven Pinker Taught this Pro Bodybuilder about Genetics
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Shilo Brooks
Guest: Dr. Mike Israetel (Co-founder, Renaissance Periodization; former Professor of Exercise and Sport Science; Author)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Dr. Mike Israetel's formative encounter with Steven Pinker's influential book The Blank Slate. Host Shilo Brooks and Dr. Israetel unpack how Pinker's thesis on human nature, genetics, and the illusions of the "blank slate" changed Israetel’s worldview — shaping not just his scientific and coaching philosophy but also his perspective on culture, fitness, and society. The conversation is both intellectually rigorous and practical, weaving in Israetel’s real-life experience as a professor, coach, and competitive bodybuilder.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery & Initial Impact of "The Blank Slate"

(01:09–04:12)

Dr. Mike Israetel recounts finding Pinker's book in his early 20s, during a period of autodidactic exploration and dissatisfaction with traditional education.
He describes being “blown away” by reading The Blank Slate for the first time, likening it to a child’s awe in a science museum:

“It was like that for the days and days I dug through the book. It was just unbelievable.” (03:06)

2. What is "The Blank Slate" Really About?

(04:12–06:35)

The book’s core: dispelling the myth that humans are born as blank slates, shaped entirely by environment.
Pinker posits that our brains are "engineered by evolution" — shaped by biological substrates and evolutionary history.
The book further explores societal denial of human nature, addressing both political left and right, noting that real human nature lies somewhere beyond ideological comfort zones.
Israetel summarizes:

“Much of the book really documents why there's a massive denial of the existence of human nature... especially the extreme left and the extreme right.” (05:10)

3. Pinker’s Three Myths Debunked

(06:35–14:43)

Blank Slate: Humans can be shaped into anything, infinitely malleable by social forces.
Noble Savage: Humans are inherently good, corrupted only by society.
Ghost in the Machine: There is a soul, separate from our biology, driving our behavior.
Israetel emphasizes all three spring more from wishful thinking than reality, and Pinker’s argument is evidence-based, not ideological:

“The blank slate runs into problems fundamentally because it's just not true.” (09:12)

4. Political Ramifications and Dangers of Extremes

(14:43–16:42)

Pinker’s nuanced take: Both excessive blank-slatism and excessive genetic determinism are dangerous, leading to abuses like eugenics or futile social engineering.
Israetel:

“He’s at pains to sort of diffuse the bomb here and say all of the excesses are bad...” (16:39)

5. Mind-Body Dualism and the Cartesian Legacy

(16:42–18:38)

Shilo Brooks gives context about "Cartesian dualism" and Pinker's opposition to the mind-body split, arguing instead for a physicalist view:

“Pinker pushes back on that claim by saying essentially that the mind is body, the body and the mind are the same...” (17:32)

6. Is Human Nature Depressing? Objections to Determinism, Nihilism, and Fatalism

(19:12–25:44)

Addressing common fears: If genetics determine so much, does that eliminate morality, meaning, or hope?
Israetel suggests that accepting reality is always preferable to wishful thinking — and the real data isn’t nearly as bleak or deterministic as critics imagine:

“Luckily, good news. Human nature as discovered when understood properly… leads to zero of the extreme concerns surfaced by critics.” (21:19)

7. Environment Still Matters: The Controversy Over Child-Rearing

(26:52–33:04)

Pinker’s provocative claim: In typical modern environments, parenting’s influence on deep traits is much smaller than most people believe.
Israetel, once skeptical, describes reviewing the behavioral genetics evidence (notably Eric Turkheimer’s “Three Laws”), concluding that beyond abuse/neglect extremes, parenting is far less formative than genetics.
Yet, this realization can liberate parents from anxiety:

“Your need to be stressed out as a parent is like really misplaced...” (32:17)

8. Sex, Gender, and Fairness: Statistical Differences and Moral Implications

(33:04–37:41)

Pinker argues for the reality of statistical sex differences but insists these do not justify discrimination.
Israetel explains bell-curve thinking and warns against both over- and under-interpreting group differences:

“The male bell curve just slid up from the female. There’s overlap.” (35:15)
“Do we have to do discrimination because people are different? No, God, no.” (36:16)

9. Favorite Passage: The French Revolution and Human Nature

(38:26–41:24)

Israetel reads and reflects on a Pinker passage contrasting the utopian, blank-slate ideals of the French Revolution with the American Revolution’s more realistic checks on human frailty.
Key insight: Reform should proceed with “reverence, calm, humility and a systems wide analysis.” (40:21)

10. The Reality of Genetic Limits — Lessons for Coaching and Fitness

(41:32–46:28)

Israetel shares how Pinker’s insights on human limitation made him a more effective coach and scientist — “You can't infinitely push people... You can't expect everyone to be your most successful case.”
Tailoring goals to individual bandwidth, genetic potential, and motivation yields better results than a one-size-fits-all approach.

11. Elite Performance and Motivation Without the Blank Slate

(46:28–49:07)

How to motivate athletes who can’t match genetic outliers like LeBron James or Matt Fraser?
Israetel: Focus on internal competition and maximizing your own potential:

“Your internal locus of control is incredibly important in competitive athletics...” (47:35)
“You can’t have other people’s results. It is impossible... You’re gonna look like a better version of you.” (49:14)

12. Genetic Engineering: Will Blank Slate Dreams Come True?

(50:10–55:40)

Shilo and Mike debate whether advances in genetic engineering and biotech could make us "blank slates" after all.
Israetel: Even gene-editing requires deep respect for complexity and constraints — “Genetic engineering has to learn that painting [the body] so well... that is not the blank slate.” (52:14)

13. Fitness Trends, Practical Advice, and Rapid-Fire Insights

(55:40–65:16)

Israetel’s most baffling fitness fad: “anything other than working out hard” (e.g., drum workouts for arms).
Best results come from boring, compound movements and “adult” sensible programming.
Diet tips: Prioritize protein, calorie control, and healthy foods. Don’t be distracted by fads.
Supplements: Multivitamin, creatine, (and maybe fish oil).
Recovery: Sleep is non-negotiable; manage stress and workload.
Favorite fitness YouTuber: Jeff Nippard.
Mirrors in gyms? "Yay. What the hell are you there for other than to look at yourself?"

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Pinker’s writing:

“Every other paragraph is revelatory, but stated in such plain and understandable terms that it fits into your world model...” (03:48)
On blank-slate wishful thinking:

“I say it’s as much of an idea as it is a wish... That starts off as a hope. I think people bring that hope to the data, and then they kind of squint at the data and kind of black this part out and they go, I'm going to believe that.” (08:07)
On coaching and genetics:

“When I was younger, I would really hope, slash expectations that all of my clients got the best possible results that a human with any given genetics could get... And then later, I realized, like, man, sometimes people just like to go out Friday night...” (46:04)
On human nature and social policy:

“There’s no need to try to conclude that humans are good fundamentally, or that humans are bad and terrible and we need to repent. We’re both.” (42:36)
On gene editing and the blank slate:

“Genetic engineering... is not that [a blank slate]. Genetic engineering, and it never will be... it has to rest on the idea of human nature, of very realistic biology, with very hard limits on how much you can push.” (52:16)
On fitness practicality versus fads:

“A lot of what gets you in the best shape is, like, sets of 10 to 20 repetitions close to failure in squats, deadlifts, bench presses... People look at it as some combination of boring and difficult, but that per unit time gets you in way better shape than everything else.” (57:07)
On asking clients their aesthetic goals:

“The vast majority of people that work out are doing it exclusively to look better naked or in clothes. That’s it, man.” (58:34)
On life wisdom as an aging athlete:

“Do like an adult would. Don’t do like... Oh, this workout, this teenager at my gym suggested, it’s called mega death 5000... Start half of that and then slowly go up.” (62:35)

Timestamps for Major Segments

Intro & Guest Welcome: 00:00–01:10
How Mike Discovered Pinker / Book’s Impact: 01:10–04:12
What is "The Blank Slate"?: 04:12–06:35
The Three Myths Debunked: 06:35–14:43
Political Uses and Misuses: 14:43–16:42
Mind-Body Dualism Refuted: 16:42–18:38
Aftermath: Determinism and Morality: 19:12–25:44
The Child-Rearing Controversy: 26:52–33:04
Gender, Genetics, and Fairness: 33:04–37:41
Favorite Book Passage (French Revolution): 38:26–41:24
Genetics in Real Life: Coaching Philosophy: 41:32–46:28
Motivation for Athletes/Non-Elites: 46:28–49:13
Genetic Engineering & the Limits Debate: 50:10–55:40
Fitness Trends & Practical Advice: 55:40–59:23
Rapid-fire Q&A / Lightning Round: 61:08–65:16

Tone & Language

The episode navigates complex scientific and philosophical topics with humor, warmth, and an unapologetically candid tone. Israetel’s voice is straightforward and irreverent, at times self-deprecating, but always grounded in evidence and a quest for actionable truth.

For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is both a crash course on Pinker’s revolutionary take on human nature and a masterclass in applying deep science to real-world challenges — whether you’re a parent, coach, or just someone trying to get (or stay) in shape.

Podcast Summary: Old School with Shilo Brooks

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery & Initial Impact of "The Blank Slate"

(01:09–04:12)

Dr. Mike Israetel recounts finding Pinker's book in his early 20s, during a period of autodidactic exploration and dissatisfaction with traditional education.
He describes being “blown away” by reading The Blank Slate for the first time, likening it to a child’s awe in a science museum:

“It was like that for the days and days I dug through the book. It was just unbelievable.” (03:06)

2. What is "The Blank Slate" Really About?

(04:12–06:35)

The book’s core: dispelling the myth that humans are born as blank slates, shaped entirely by environment.
Pinker posits that our brains are "engineered by evolution" — shaped by biological substrates and evolutionary history.
The book further explores societal denial of human nature, addressing both political left and right, noting that real human nature lies somewhere beyond ideological comfort zones.
Israetel summarizes:

“Much of the book really documents why there's a massive denial of the existence of human nature... especially the extreme left and the extreme right.” (05:10)

3. Pinker’s Three Myths Debunked

(06:35–14:43)

Blank Slate: Humans can be shaped into anything, infinitely malleable by social forces.
Noble Savage: Humans are inherently good, corrupted only by society.
Ghost in the Machine: There is a soul, separate from our biology, driving our behavior.
Israetel emphasizes all three spring more from wishful thinking than reality, and Pinker’s argument is evidence-based, not ideological:

“The blank slate runs into problems fundamentally because it's just not true.” (09:12)

4. Political Ramifications and Dangers of Extremes

(14:43–16:42)

Pinker’s nuanced take: Both excessive blank-slatism and excessive genetic determinism are dangerous, leading to abuses like eugenics or futile social engineering.
Israetel:

“He’s at pains to sort of diffuse the bomb here and say all of the excesses are bad...” (16:39)

5. Mind-Body Dualism and the Cartesian Legacy

(16:42–18:38)

Shilo Brooks gives context about "Cartesian dualism" and Pinker's opposition to the mind-body split, arguing instead for a physicalist view:

“Pinker pushes back on that claim by saying essentially that the mind is body, the body and the mind are the same...” (17:32)

6. Is Human Nature Depressing? Objections to Determinism, Nihilism, and Fatalism

(19:12–25:44)

Addressing common fears: If genetics determine so much, does that eliminate morality, meaning, or hope?
Israetel suggests that accepting reality is always preferable to wishful thinking — and the real data isn’t nearly as bleak or deterministic as critics imagine:

“Luckily, good news. Human nature as discovered when understood properly… leads to zero of the extreme concerns surfaced by critics.” (21:19)

7. Environment Still Matters: The Controversy Over Child-Rearing

(26:52–33:04)

Pinker’s provocative claim: In typical modern environments, parenting’s influence on deep traits is much smaller than most people believe.
Israetel, once skeptical, describes reviewing the behavioral genetics evidence (notably Eric Turkheimer’s “Three Laws”), concluding that beyond abuse/neglect extremes, parenting is far less formative than genetics.
Yet, this realization can liberate parents from anxiety:

“Your need to be stressed out as a parent is like really misplaced...” (32:17)

8. Sex, Gender, and Fairness: Statistical Differences and Moral Implications

(33:04–37:41)

Pinker argues for the reality of statistical sex differences but insists these do not justify discrimination.
Israetel explains bell-curve thinking and warns against both over- and under-interpreting group differences:

“The male bell curve just slid up from the female. There’s overlap.” (35:15)
“Do we have to do discrimination because people are different? No, God, no.” (36:16)

9. Favorite Passage: The French Revolution and Human Nature

(38:26–41:24)

Israetel reads and reflects on a Pinker passage contrasting the utopian, blank-slate ideals of the French Revolution with the American Revolution’s more realistic checks on human frailty.
Key insight: Reform should proceed with “reverence, calm, humility and a systems wide analysis.” (40:21)

10. The Reality of Genetic Limits — Lessons for Coaching and Fitness

(41:32–46:28)

Israetel shares how Pinker’s insights on human limitation made him a more effective coach and scientist — “You can't infinitely push people... You can't expect everyone to be your most successful case.”
Tailoring goals to individual bandwidth, genetic potential, and motivation yields better results than a one-size-fits-all approach.

11. Elite Performance and Motivation Without the Blank Slate

(46:28–49:07)

How to motivate athletes who can’t match genetic outliers like LeBron James or Matt Fraser?
Israetel: Focus on internal competition and maximizing your own potential:

“Your internal locus of control is incredibly important in competitive athletics...” (47:35)
“You can’t have other people’s results. It is impossible... You’re gonna look like a better version of you.” (49:14)

12. Genetic Engineering: Will Blank Slate Dreams Come True?

(50:10–55:40)

Shilo and Mike debate whether advances in genetic engineering and biotech could make us "blank slates" after all.
Israetel: Even gene-editing requires deep respect for complexity and constraints — “Genetic engineering has to learn that painting [the body] so well... that is not the blank slate.” (52:14)

13. Fitness Trends, Practical Advice, and Rapid-Fire Insights

(55:40–65:16)

Israetel’s most baffling fitness fad: “anything other than working out hard” (e.g., drum workouts for arms).
Best results come from boring, compound movements and “adult” sensible programming.
Diet tips: Prioritize protein, calorie control, and healthy foods. Don’t be distracted by fads.
Supplements: Multivitamin, creatine, (and maybe fish oil).
Recovery: Sleep is non-negotiable; manage stress and workload.
Favorite fitness YouTuber: Jeff Nippard.
Mirrors in gyms? "Yay. What the hell are you there for other than to look at yourself?"

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Pinker’s writing:

“Every other paragraph is revelatory, but stated in such plain and understandable terms that it fits into your world model...” (03:48)
On blank-slate wishful thinking:

“I say it’s as much of an idea as it is a wish... That starts off as a hope. I think people bring that hope to the data, and then they kind of squint at the data and kind of black this part out and they go, I'm going to believe that.” (08:07)
On coaching and genetics:

“When I was younger, I would really hope, slash expectations that all of my clients got the best possible results that a human with any given genetics could get... And then later, I realized, like, man, sometimes people just like to go out Friday night...” (46:04)
On human nature and social policy:

“There’s no need to try to conclude that humans are good fundamentally, or that humans are bad and terrible and we need to repent. We’re both.” (42:36)
On gene editing and the blank slate:

“Genetic engineering... is not that [a blank slate]. Genetic engineering, and it never will be... it has to rest on the idea of human nature, of very realistic biology, with very hard limits on how much you can push.” (52:16)
On fitness practicality versus fads:

“A lot of what gets you in the best shape is, like, sets of 10 to 20 repetitions close to failure in squats, deadlifts, bench presses... People look at it as some combination of boring and difficult, but that per unit time gets you in way better shape than everything else.” (57:07)
On asking clients their aesthetic goals:

“The vast majority of people that work out are doing it exclusively to look better naked or in clothes. That’s it, man.” (58:34)
On life wisdom as an aging athlete:

“Do like an adult would. Don’t do like... Oh, this workout, this teenager at my gym suggested, it’s called mega death 5000... Start half of that and then slowly go up.” (62:35)

Timestamps for Major Segments

Intro & Guest Welcome: 00:00–01:10
How Mike Discovered Pinker / Book’s Impact: 01:10–04:12
What is "The Blank Slate"?: 04:12–06:35
The Three Myths Debunked: 06:35–14:43
Political Uses and Misuses: 14:43–16:42
Mind-Body Dualism Refuted: 16:42–18:38
Aftermath: Determinism and Morality: 19:12–25:44
The Child-Rearing Controversy: 26:52–33:04
Gender, Genetics, and Fairness: 33:04–37:41
Favorite Book Passage (French Revolution): 38:26–41:24
Genetics in Real Life: Coaching Philosophy: 41:32–46:28
Motivation for Athletes/Non-Elites: 46:28–49:13
Genetic Engineering & the Limits Debate: 50:10–55:40
Fitness Trends & Practical Advice: 55:40–59:23
Rapid-fire Q&A / Lightning Round: 61:08–65:16

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery & Initial Impact of "The Blank Slate"

2. What is "The Blank Slate" Really About?

3. Pinker’s Three Myths Debunked

4. Political Ramifications and Dangers of Extremes

5. Mind-Body Dualism and the Cartesian Legacy

6. Is Human Nature Depressing? Objections to Determinism, Nihilism, and Fatalism

7. Environment Still Matters: The Controversy Over Child-Rearing

8. Sex, Gender, and Fairness: Statistical Differences and Moral Implications

9. Favorite Passage: The French Revolution and Human Nature

10. The Reality of Genetic Limits — Lessons for Coaching and Fitness

11. Elite Performance and Motivation Without the Blank Slate

12. Genetic Engineering: Will Blank Slate Dreams Come True?

13. Fitness Trends, Practical Advice, and Rapid-Fire Insights

Notable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Tone & Language

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery & Initial Impact of "The Blank Slate"

2. What is "The Blank Slate" Really About?

3. Pinker’s Three Myths Debunked

4. Political Ramifications and Dangers of Extremes

5. Mind-Body Dualism and the Cartesian Legacy

6. Is Human Nature Depressing? Objections to Determinism, Nihilism, and Fatalism

7. Environment Still Matters: The Controversy Over Child-Rearing

8. Sex, Gender, and Fairness: Statistical Differences and Moral Implications

9. Favorite Passage: The French Revolution and Human Nature

10. The Reality of Genetic Limits — Lessons for Coaching and Fitness

11. Elite Performance and Motivation Without the Blank Slate

12. Genetic Engineering: Will Blank Slate Dreams Come True?

13. Fitness Trends, Practical Advice, and Rapid-Fire Insights

Notable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Tone & Language