← Ologies with Alie Ward
Ologies with Alie Ward
Asinology (DONKEYS) with Faith Burden
01:15:57
Tall ears. Huge teeth. Underestimated wit. And vocalizations that would make a songbird envious. Let’s talk donkeys with researcher and Director at The Donkey Sanctuary, Asinologist Dr. Faith Burden. We cover pop culture donkeys, their road to domestication, how much they can carry, whether you should ever saddle up on a donkey, mule genetics, zoo sexism, how to care for a donkey, what their noises mean, milky baths, emperor gossip, squats versus donkey kicks, and why these beautiful beasts deserve all of our love.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:58]
Alie Ward
Oh hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your back perfectly. This is Alie Ward. This is Ologies. This is a show in which we cover one ology every episode. And friends, I know that you love donkeys already because we truly got like a tidal wave of questions for this one and happened to chat with the loveliest donkey expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting on a covered porch with a tea and a plate of cookies. You just keep eating while they talk about interesting donkey facts. And this ologist is the Director of Research and Operational Support at the nonprofit the Donkey Sanctuary and has been there for over two decades researching, caring for, and advocating for donkeys. They're an author on dozens of donkey and mule research papers as well as having a microbiological background which we talk about. They were just made for this work and they love it. So we'll meet them in a minute. But thank you first to patrons of the show who make it possible. You too can join for as little as a dollar a month and for free. We also have shorter kid friendly episodes of Ologies. Their own feed. They're called smologies S M O L O G I E S Found. Wherever you get your podcasts, Ologies Merch is available for your body@ologies merch.com and you can always support Ologies by just leaving us a review which helps so much. It gets the show up in the charts and gets it seen each week. I kick this off by reading a recent one such as this from Lori 2474 who called Ologies charming, educational, and highly addictive. Treat yourself to an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't belittle you or leave you lost in jargon.
- [02:30]
Dr. Faith Burden
Authentic.
- [02:31]
Alie Ward
Also right amount of swearing. I appreciate that, and that is affirming. Okay. Acinology comes from the Latin word asinus. It means ass, which means donkey. Donkey itself may come from an old word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass, as in your ass is going to love this episode, came much later. And that was derived from the British arse, which came from a word for tail, a rump. We do also discuss rumps in this episode, and I think you'll appreciate it. So take a long drink of water, Saddle up for big ears, Milky baths, Emperor Gossip squats for stunky kicks. How much weight can a beast of burden bear? Mule genetics, zoo sexism, how to care for a donkey, where to pet a donkey, what their noises mean. And heads up. We do have donkey noises in here, so do not be startled. They're happy donkeys as well as what a donkey eats. What's up with those teeth? Donkeys on film and busting so much flimflam. With researcher, director of research and operational support and nonprofit, the Donkey Sanctuary, friend to donkeys worldwide, and acenologist, Dr. Faith Burden.
- [03:58]
Dr. Faith Burden
Faith Burden. And she her.
- [04:00]
Erin Talbert
You are all the way in the uk.
- [04:04]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yes, indeed.
- [04:05]
Erin Talbert
Where exactly are donkeys? Do you know? Where are they from? From?
- [04:08]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah. So the donkey's ancestor is actually from East Africa. So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan. So a long, long way away from the UK or the US how long.
- [04:23]
Erin Talbert
Have they been kind of all over the world? At what point did people start saying, don, donkeys, I gotta get some donkeys over here.
- [04:31]
Dr. Faith Burden
So donkeys were first domesticated about 7,000 years ago, we think, in East Africa. And they then slowly made their way up to Egypt, where they were a really important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there, they gradually spread across the world, particularly helped both by the Romans, but also various explorers. So donkeys made their way to the Americas in about the 15th century. So actually their history with us is quite recent, but it all began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa.
- [05:12]
Alie Ward
So, yes, Equus asinus was domesticated from the wild African ass. And it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw, it's got a stout frame, and this really beautiful pewter colored velveteen looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our friends and tools for millennia. According to Researchers of the 2022 paper the genomic history and global expansion of domestic donkeys in the journal Science. Domesticated in Africa, went all around, came back to Africa, but before donkeys made that world tour genetically, in ancient Egypt.
- [05:47]
Dr. Faith Burden
Donkeys were originally used for meat and milk and then they started to become a working animal, but very much a well respected ceremonial animal. Oh, so you actually can find a number of donkey skeletons that were buried along very high ranking noble people. So it was a real surprise when they opened up a tomb not long ago that was dedicated, I believe, to Osiris. And in one of the king's tombs next door were donkey skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a really respected and revered animal.
- [06:34]
Alie Ward
Okay, so there's at least all of you who want more info on this, so please see the 2024 paper. Donkeys, genies and demons, Fantastical creatures in ancient Egyptian ritual texts and funerary assemblages, which notes that the donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the old kingdom, which was roughly 5,000 years ago. And it represented ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nightly journey of the ancient sun God, or it could be a malevolent force. It could go either way, like a cat or something that loves you and then tries to kill you.
- [07:08]
Erin Talbert
You mentioned that from the deserts. Is that why they have such big ears like a Fennec fox?
- [07:12]
Dr. Faith Burden
Kind of, yeah. Really? Absolutely. So the donkey is adapted, its ancestor is a desert dwelling animal, so it has lots and lots of adaptations, particularly the ears. That's what we all notice. So they help not only to dissip heat, but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses. Because in the ancestors natural environment, donkeys don't live in herds. So unlike horses, where we all know that horses like to gather in herds, the donkey's ancestors live either alone or in very, very small groups. So they need to communicate. And that's why the donkey's bray is so amazing. Travels for kilometers. But the ears are really important too.
- [08:00]
Alie Ward
We're going to communicate to you more about their communication in a bit, but first let's crunch some numbers.
- [08:05]
Erin Talbert
You now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys, if you will.
- [08:11]
Dr. Faith Burden
I'm a mom. Mamacita.
- [08:13]
Erin Talbert
How many donkeys are in your care?
- [08:17]
Dr. Faith Burden
So in the donkey sanctuary's care, we have 6,200 donkeys that are in our ownership. About 4,000 of those are in our direct care and then we've got 2000 that live out in wonderful guardian homes that look after them in private homes. So we have thousands of donkeys. They're all amazing, and it's such a privilege to work with them and care for them.
- [08:44]
Erin Talbert
Where are their origins?
- [08:45]
Alie Ward
Typically?
- [08:46]
Erin Talbert
Do you take in a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe that had been mistreated? I know that donkey welfare is like the cornerstone of your life.
- [08:57]
Dr. Faith Burden
That's right.
- [08:58]
Erin Talbert
And so where are a lot of your donkeys from?
- [09:01]
Dr. Faith Burden
A complete mix. So sadly, we still see lots of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly. We also take in animals that have got significant behavioral issues, that need rehabilitation, medical issues. And sadly, we do see the issue of donkeys outliving their owners. So donkeys live a very long time, really. They can live into their 30s, and unfortunately, sometimes their human carers can't look after them for their life. So we're trying to help people to understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a big commitment. So we sometimes step in those circumstances. But certainly in Europe, there are not that many working donkeys anymore. Sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture. But most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries, at least, will have been companions and pets. But it's very different to the work that we do internationally with working donkeys.
- [10:10]
Alie Ward
Yeah, what is the difference there?
- [10:11]
Erin Talbert
Are there a lot of working donkeys that are maybe not treated fairly or not well kept?
- [10:16]
Dr. Faith Burden
I mean, the vast majority of donkeys in the world are working animals that live in the global South. So those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people that rely on them. So very commonly found in sub Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of Central and Southern America. And those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of household activities. And sometimes, sadly, we do see donkeys that need help. That's often because of a lack of information, or very often that the owner and the family are struggling for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support and education, helping with basic things like foot care and making sure a cart works well for a donkey. But those animals are an absolute lifeline for those families.
- [11:15]
Alie Ward
Okay, just a little recap. Donkeys have been domesticated for around 7,000 years. They are not big party herd animals, and they are a huge part of economies around the world. But right now, donkey theft is an issue, and up to 4.8 million donkeys a year die from harvesting hides to make this prized herbal medicine out of Donkey Gelatin and Faith and the Donkey Sanctuary have been working on, researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals. But on a brighter note, you should also know that in some alpine regions, when baby lambs can't make it down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have donkey nannies or mule nannies. And a mule or a donkey will wear, like a pocketed smock, and they'll carry the lambs down the mountain. Like if you had cargo pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety. It's a beautiful thing.
- [12:07]
Erin Talbert
How did you intersect your life with donkeys? Did you have a pet donkey and then you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys. Cause they're so lovable.
- [12:17]
Dr. Faith Burden
They are lovable. And I've always loved animals from the moment I was big enough to understand what they were. But I visited the donkey sanctuary when I was seven and I fell with the donkey sanctuary and their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path and. And I. I never dreamed I'd work with donkeys. But many years passed and I ended up then spending some time in America, in Tennessee of all places, working with mules and fell in love with them as well. And then in my early mid-20s, I saw a job and the rest is history. So that's well over 20 years ago now. So it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys.
- [13:09]
Erin Talbert
I just realized your last name is Burden and they are called Visa Burden. People must talk to you about that all the time.
- [13:15]
Dr. Faith Burden
They do. It was obviously a complete coincidence, but yeah, isn't it funny? Beast of Burden. And I think it's called nominative determinism. And of course, donkeys are really linked with religion as well. So my first name, Faith, is somewhat linked too. But I just think it was destined to be from being that 7 year old that fell in love with some long ears and, you know, a place of wonder and yeah, I could never change my name, could I?
- [13:51]
Erin Talbert
No, keep it forever.
- [13:54]
Alie Ward
So, yes, Equids and donkeys have been the animals that humans have relied on for heavy work for thousands of years. And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact, like in a political context, that the Bible does contain a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint, though, this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of those less fortunate. And God saying to this donkey's owner, who's flogging it, like, you'll be nicer to that donkey. You're Being a dick. So, yeah, just a casual talking donkey reference, but also defending the downtrodden who knew that was in there?
- [14:34]
Erin Talbert
And so did you ever dream that you would be kind of, you know, the head of the donkeys?
- [14:39]
Dr. Faith Burden
No, no, never. Never. But what a wonderful place to find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been interested in the natural world and how it all works. So the science part of what I do is, and certainly that was always my main aim was to help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us.
- [15:04]
Erin Talbert
Yeah. What kind of science were you studying or what's your science background?
- [15:08]
Dr. Faith Burden
I was a microbiologist and a virologist. So originally my PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between people and animals. But I got a little bit tired of lab work. White coat and centrifuges became a bit tiresome. So I decided to take some time out and go and see what donkeys had to offer.
- [15:32]
Alie Ward
And she has a lot to offer donkeys, Clearly. With over 50 published papers including hits such as Objective Assessment of Chronic Pain in Donkeys Using the Donkey Chronic Pain Scale and Belief in Animal Sentience and Effective Owner Attitudes are linked to positive working equity welfare across six countries and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of mules working in the mountain trail trails of Nepal. Also, she's got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her donkey stuff on a global level and on a micro level.
- [16:05]
Dr. Faith Burden
And a lot of my early work with the donkey sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition. So it drew on much of my my background. But then really the sort of behavior and welfare science overtook. And as they say, the rest is history.
- [16:25]
Erin Talbert
Well, you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are and babe, that's why we got you here.
- [16:31]
Dr. Faith Burden
Amazing.
- [16:32]
Erin Talbert
Let's talk donkey myths. Because so many people are like, I know Eeyore or Shrek, but no idea what they're really like or they just know them as beasts of burden. So what's like some big flim flam that you have to bust as a doctor? Donkey.
- [16:49]
Dr. Faith Burden
Donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys are not stupid. And anyone that thinks a donkey stupid has simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So we always judge donkeys by what we know about horses. We're all brought up with western films and horses in battle, and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals, aren't they? And then we think the donkey is like a small horse with big ears. And we can't understand why it doesn't go when we ask it to. We can't understand why it says no. And actually, donkeys don't run away from problems. That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and they will consider what's in front of them. So they will think, is it in my best interest to run away? And I might do that. But more often, what happens is they either freeze or they fight, which, again, is that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty, they can kick. You know, it's absolutely natural behavior for the species that they are. They're calm, they're thoughtful. And if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on the back of any animal, put it on a donkey or a mule, really, because it will be safe, because they're really, really calm and think about what they're going to do before they do it. Whereas a horse is, you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realized there's nothing worth running away from.
- [18:38]
Alie Ward
What are you running from? Nothing.
- [18:40]
Dr. Faith Burden
So, you know, donkeys have just been judged by the wrong standards, really. And I'm afraid what we see. You mentioned Eeyore and you mentioned we've got donkey and Shrek, and there are lots and lots of other depictions that probably start with Aesop's Fables. Way back when, you might have seen.
- [18:59]
T-Mobile Advertiser
A house fly, maybe even a superfly.
- [19:01]
Dr. Faith Burden
But I bet you ain't never seen a donkey fly. And they portray donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way, or pessimistic, at least in the case of Eeyore.
- [19:15]
Alie Ward
Not much of a house. Just right for not much of a donkey.
- [19:21]
Dr. Faith Burden
And we've all grown up with that, haven't we? Yeah, yeah, we've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some of your listeners will know. The wonky donkey, he was a wonky donkey. Wonky donkey. Wonky donkey. Okay. And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about an ugly donkey that brays and is stupid and, you know, we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians knew far better the value of donkeys, and the Romans. But sadly, we've somehow lost that in our culture.
- [19:57]
Erin Talbert
You know, what about their emotions? Are they very affectionate animals, or can you read the emotions of a donkey and kind of know what they're feeling?
- [20:07]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah. So donkeys are really emotional, if you know what you're looking for. So we always say that donkeys are very subtle in their behavior very often, and a really Good example is that donkeys pair bond very strongly. So a donkey will often have one special companion for its whole life. And unfortunately, if one half of the pair goes, they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly, they can also recognize donkeys that they might have met, you know, years, decades ago, and they can express the joy of being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a joyful donkey braying, you know, really loudly, but also just, just showing that excitement. But very often in day to day, normal times, donkeys are quiet, they're, you know, patient and they don't move fast and they don't waste energy. And again, it goes back to their evolutionary background that these are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are, you know, in the 40s. You don't waste energy, you don't waste water and you don't draw attention to yourself because otherwise you're going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important that we understand they do express themselves, but at the right time and in the way that suits them.
- [21:37]
Erin Talbert
Is that bray that you mentioned? You know, how for me, I don't have children, so when I hear a baby making noise, I think it's in distress and then I'll look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing, you know what I mean? Like, or if it's your own kid. I'm sure some people are like, I know exactly what that means. Can you kind of tell different emotions through the brain?
- [21:56]
Dr. Faith Burden
Definitely. So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So bray is the one that we know most. But there's also snorts and whiffles and they can mean different things. So friends greeting each other. You can tell when two males that don't particularly like each other meet each other, but also when they're trying to seek affection or food very often. And you can often tell which bray belongs to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual as well. And certainly our donkey carers that get to know their animals really, really well, you know, they could probably say that's Alfred waiting for his dinner at 5 o' clock and we're two minutes late. They are all individuals, but some of them are very noisy and they know how to express themselves.
- [22:56]
Erin Talbert
I've seen those videos where I think there's one in particular where a girl comes back to the farm, she's been gone for a bit and a donkey just freaks out, so happy to see her. Is that kind of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or when you've been away.
- [23:13]
Dr. Faith Burden
Donkeys know their primary carers really well, and mules, too, get very attached to certain people, and they will greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about seeing that individual. It's not every donkey, it's not every relationship, but you do see it. And you will also see if an animal has had to be given up by caring owners that then come and visit that animal. You can, in certain circumstances, see just such emotion on both sides to be back together again. And of course, that's all to do with, you know, donkeys are masters of social bonding and behavior, and they are really good at communicating not just with each other, but with us if we listen.
- [24:02]
Erin Talbert
I've heard that some of them have good senses of humor. Do you ever get tricked by a donkey and you're like, that was a very good one.
- [24:09]
Dr. Faith Burden
Oh, humor's a very sort of human trait, isn't it? And we do try not to anthropomorphize. But there are occasions where I think a donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction. So I can remember, remember when I first started to really work with donkeys? I used to have a big, you know, heavy jacket for the winter, and it had elasticated toggles on the side, and donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle. And of course, they all got an ouch because those things really hurt when you get stuck with them multiple times in a day. So I think, you know, there are examples of that. And the donkey that opens the gate to let everybody else out, obviously there's an advantage to them, but sometimes you do wonder. They certainly enjoy the reaction that they're getting from us, I think.
- [25:06]
Erin Talbert
I think that counts as humor. I feel like when someone's funny, you know, they're smart and clever. So it's just cleverness.
- [25:13]
Alie Ward
Yeah, Reality.
- [25:14]
Dr. Faith Burden
I'm actually very fun, relaxed, and easygoing.
- [25:19]
Erin Talbert
You mentioned mules, and let us disambiguate, because a mule, from what I understand, it is a hybrid of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce. So does that mean every mule is just a one off collaboration?
- [25:34]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah.
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Erin Talbert
Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys?
- [25:37]
Dr. Faith Burden
Great question. So mules are the cross of a horse or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another one which people know much less about, which is the hinny, where the mother is a donkey and the father is a horse or pony. Much less known about much fewer of them, but still happens. So there is an uneven number of chromosomes between horses and donkeys. So horses have got 64 donkeys have got 62, which means that you get an uneven number, which means the resulting offspring is sterile. So that 99.99% means that a mule or a hinny cannot reproduce. So it's a really good question, why do people have them? Mules possess hybrid vigour, both physically and mentally, so they have often increased size and speed as compared to a donkey. But they have the calmness and the toughness of the donkey. So in a mule you've got an animal that can go longer distances, is normally very disease resistant, tends to carry more in weight than either a donkey or a horse, and has a speed between the two. They are also wonderfully intelligent, which is both an amazing trait for human beings, but has also caused some confusion and concern. I think it's best to say.
- [27:18]
Alie Ward
And mules, remember that is the breeding of a male donkey which is smaller, and a female horse which is bigger. Mules have been around for at least 4,000 years. And a hinny, yes, that's a big old male horse impregnating a female smaller donkey. So just like you would want a Yorkie dad and a great Great Dane mom and not the other way around. That's why we've got a lot of mules and very few hinnies. But the mix of genes in a mule tends to result in a really strong and a trainable animal.
- [27:51]
Dr. Faith Burden
So mules definitely need kind and consistent training and handling. Otherwise they can be tricky to deal with. But certainly, you know, the west of America was settled on the back of a mule, or at least behind it because mules drew the wagons that took settlers across. But you also have mules working in probably some of the toughest environments around the world. So the Nepalese mountains, so much of Everest Base camp, the supplies that go up to the near mountains, they will be carried on mules because they're sure footed, they're tough, they're strong and they bring that best of both worlds. But you have to treat them fairly and you have to be really consistent with mules because they don't tend to forgive and forget. They are clever animals.
- [28:49]
Erin Talbert
So when you say treat them fairly, good care and good food and all of that and just respect for the mule.
- [28:56]
Dr. Faith Burden
Exactly. Respectful that they will work well and hard for their owners, but they need to be properly treated and cared for. And a poorly handled mule is not something for the faint hearted, that's for sure.
- [29:11]
Alie Ward
And if you're wondering what happens if you are rude or mean to a donkey, just know that they can kick with forces over £2,000 and at speeds over 50 miles an hour or 80 kilometers an hour. Also, I was looking up donkey donkey kick trivia and research and most of the search results were fitness related and I was like, oh, donkey kicks. Okay. It led me down this steep and treacherous path to a 2020 study in the International Journal of Medicine and Health Development titled quote, effects of six Weeks Donkey Kick and Squat Resistant exercises on Gluteal Adiposity, Muscle Strength and Muscle Bulk of Young Nigerian Female Adults. A randomized controlled trial and it was authored by doctors from the Department of Medical Rehabilitation at the University of Niger, Nigeria. But this paper begins rounded protruding gluteus have been asserted to be an important feature of feminine beauty and self image. Currently, there is a large influx of gymnasiums to achieve this end as claimed by gym operators. Amid the dearth of literature to support their claims. Now the authors, they did feel that the setup needed further context, adding, quote, the round protruding gluteus signifies beauty, power, poise and physical strength, especially among young women. The size and shape of the buttocks are important attributes of feminine beauty. Some celebrities, especially in the movie and music industries, have risen to fame owing to their body image. So I mean, good questions. So this group, they recruited 111 females aged 18 to 30. They measured their butts and then they assigned them randomly to a control group, a squats group and a donkey kick exercise group. And you're like, tell us everything, I'm going to tell you everything. Okay. So they found that significant gain in gluteal muscle was recorded in both the squat and the donkey kick group, clearly not in the control group. However, the squat group found significantly more muscle gains than the DKG or donkey kick group. So more muscle but also one paragraph shockingly. And yeah, I read a lot of this seemed to contradict so much fitness advice. I've heard that you can't spot reduce in terms of adipose tissue, but this 2020 study asserts that both squats and donkey kicks significantly reduced adipose tissue fat tissue on the buttocks and quote, this may be attributed to the exercise specific induction of fatty acid oxidation at the gluteal region which is required to meet the energy demand of the exercise. They say this result corroborates with other studies involving high intensity resistance training. Okay, so there's information on your butts. It's your butt. You do whatever works for you. You have that butt look and feel exactly as you want it. Either way, it's a great butt. But just know scientists are out there unraveling all kinds of mysteries, you know.
- [32:06]
Erin Talbert
Given your cell biology background too. Do you ever see news reports that come in like trying to a crispr a mule that can breed?
- [32:17]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah, that's often the thing that's brought up. Or cloned mules or, you know, can we design this ultimate equid? But actually nature itself is really clever, isn't it? And I think, you know, mules have to be bred because they're wanted and they have a purpose. And I think people that really value mules understand that, that they can't have an offspring, but they're worth it just for what they have in that hybrid figure.
- [32:48]
Alie Ward
Any major updates on this, you ask, other than all the cloning they did on racing mules a few decades ago? Well, There was a 2025 paper in the journal Animals and it was titled Current and Emerging Advanced Techniques for Breeding Donkeys and Mules. And it kind of reported with a bit of a sigh that despite significant progress in the last decade, standardization of protocols for gamete conservation and embryo transfer are still required in long ear equids. Meaning I don't think anyone's out there doing CRISPR on mules. I'll let you know though, also, yeah, we got mules and we got ligers, and a liger is a tiger lion hybrid, but the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger, also called a tigress, which seems unnecessary, but there are hybrids from a female lion and a male tiger and those are called tigons. Oh, so there's another new word. And the way to remember those is that the male animal comes first in both of those portmanteaus, even though the female grows the thing and it does the birthing. Also, female ligers and tigons can sometimes reproduce, but the males are always sterile. But it's asinine. Back to asinus.
- [34:01]
Erin Talbert
And when I think of a donkey, I also. So I can't help but think of mini donkeys because I've seen them and they're tiny and adorable. But when it comes to the size of a donkey, what's going on with mini donkeys? Where do those come from? Are they doing okay? What's the deal?
- [34:18]
Dr. Faith Burden
They're doing great. They're very popular. They are very, very popular at the moment as pets. They are believed to have originally been bred in Sicily and Sardinia, in Italy, and particularly for the tiny, tiny little tracks that you find in those rather arid environments. Since then, they've become exceptionally popular pets and they are wonderful. But they do if they're not bred carefully and Properly. They can suffer from issues associated with trying to breed too small. So they can get dental issues, they can get foot problems. They can have issues giving birth because of the size. But. But they are cute. And you can get mini mules. So my personal equid is a miniature mule and he is about the same size as a mini donkey. But of course we can get donkeys and mules. You know, 16 hands, 17 hands. They come in all shapes and sizes.
- [35:21]
Alie Ward
I didn't know this, but one hand is 4 inches or just over 10 centimeters, and the height of a horse or a donkey. It starts at the ground and it goes up to the withers, which is right between its shoulder blades. And yeah, hands is a unit based on thousands of years of using your hand or a man's hand really as a ruler. And that's called anthropic measurement. And it just. It strikes me as so weird that we just use a body part as a measuring tool. But then I remembered I'm 5 foot 5, 5 foot feet or 25 hands. So, yeah, we should all be using the metric system. But America has a lot of problems, so that's low on the list.
- [36:00]
Dr. Faith Burden
The mini ones are really fun and loving animals.
- [36:05]
Erin Talbert
They're very adorable. When you say your personal Equid, do you have one that's like a pet or do you have like 50? That's a pet. How do you do it?
- [36:15]
Dr. Faith Burden
So I have two of my very own. One is a pony and one is my miniature mule, Monty. So he's been with us for nearly 20 years now, and he was a little bit of a behavioral challenge, shall we say, when we first got him? But yes, he's taught me a lot, that's for sure.
- [36:35]
Erin Talbert
Has he kind of calmed and settled in as he's felt more secure?
- [36:38]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah, he's amazing. He's a great example of mules. Love one person, and once they trust one person, he'll let me do anything for him. But my husband is a whole different situation. But it is that lifelong connection with donkeys and mules that they become part of a family. And I think that's what's so important. When we see how donkeys and mules serve communities, but particularly families all over the world, they are a really important part of that family setup. They might bring the drinking water, they might take the kids to school, they'll help harvest the crops. And they are just such a valued family member. And that works well for the donkey and for the family, right?
- [37:32]
Erin Talbert
I mean, everyone. You have a dog or a cat and They're a family member. My dog doesn't even do anything other than just be cute. And that's fine. That's all she needs to do.
- [37:42]
Dr. Faith Burden
And that's fine, isn't it? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
- [37:44]
Erin Talbert
And if she were to come back with groceries, I'd be like, wow, that's even better, you know. Can I ask you some listener questions, please?
- [37:52]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah, love to.
- [37:53]
Erin Talbert
Oh my God. Okay, they had 1 million.
- [37:56]
Alie Ward
But before we ask just a fraction of those 1 million, let's donate to a charity of Faith's choice. And this week it's of course the Donkey Sanctuary, which seeks to create a world where every donkey has a good quality of life. And they use world leading expertise in donkey welfare. They design targeted solution to meet the needs of these animals. And they bring together over 400 welfare experts for rescuing donkeys, shaping their behavior and collaborating with individual owners and communities. They also perform life saving surgical techniques and training of vets globally. And the Donkey Sanctuary improves the lives of over 4 million donkeys worldwide every year. So a donation will be going to them. And thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. So is my entire life. I've used Squarespace ever since I started this podcast. So whether you're just starting out or you are scaling your business, Squarespace is an all in one website platform. It's designed to help your business stand out and succeed. They give you everything you need to offer your services to get paid all in one place. Whether you're doing things like consultations or events, you can show the world what you do with this great customizable website. It's designed to help grow your business. You can get paid on time. I love that they have on brand invoices, they have online payment, all of the things that you are overwhelmed to do. Squarespace can handle. You can also streamline your workflow. They have built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools which are huge right now. Again, I love Squarespace. Whether you are starting from the ground up and you just need a simple website, or if you're a business and you want better, more streamlined portals, Squarespace. They know I love them. You know I love them. So head to square squarespace.com ologies for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code ologies to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Go do it. Listen, it's a new year. You just got through the holidays. I'm with you. I feel you if you're looking for some new habits, AG1 easy tastes good and I've known people for years who swear by it. You don't have to be perfect, just be consistent and you can simplify some nutrition with AG1. They got multivitamins, vitamin K, probiotics, superfoods, antioxidants. One scoop they have a next gen formula. They've added more vitamins and minerals than ever. They've been clinically proven to fill some nutrient gaps which you may be dealing with After a season full of finger food dinners. I have my tea, I have a little breakfast, I have some AG1 and I always find that when I'm filling those nutrient gaps I have more energy. I just feel more on top of my brain in my life. And AG1 has over 50,000 verified 5 star reviews and it comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. So go to drink ag1.comologies to get their best offer and for a limited time only get a free AG1 duffel bag and a free AG1 welcome kit with your first subscription order. That's only while supplies last. That's Drink ag1.com Ologies Drink ag1.com OlogieS oh hey, holidays are over. Frankly, I'm happy about it. It's been an nutritionally imperfect time of year.
- [40:57]
Erin Talbert
But we're back and I'm excited about.
- [40:58]
Alie Ward
Being being a little healthier.
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Erin Talbert
Ritual has been in my routine and my stomach for years.
- [41:03]
Alie Ward
They have evidence based essential multivitamins which have key ingredients that are often missed in the average read my diet. They're high quality in a form your body can actually use and they're designed to be gentle on the stomach for a long time.
- [41:17]
Erin Talbert
I took ritual in the morning along.
- [41:19]
Alie Ward
With some other medication, but I've started taking it at night recently partly by accident and then I realize when I take it at night, have an easier.
- [41:26]
Erin Talbert
Time getting up in the morning.
- [41:27]
Alie Ward
I think B vitamins are just something.
- [41:28]
Erin Talbert
That helps me with energy.
- [41:30]
Alie Ward
I literally have a bottle in my bedside table. I also love that Rituals products are vegan.
- [41:35]
Erin Talbert
They're well tested for heavy metals and allergens. It's a female founded B Corp and.
- [41:39]
Alie Ward
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- [41:53]
Erin Talbert
The Food and Drug Administration.
- [41:54]
Alie Ward
The product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any Disease. We have to say that. Ologies is sponsored by Strawberry Me. So every New Year's Eve, I like to sit down and write what I want for the year ahead. And then I put it in a jar with my favorite rocks. Don't worry about the jar or the rocks. It's so helpful to write down what you want for career growth. But sometimes the next step is difficult. Inertia is real, but nothing really changes changes unless you change it. And Strawberry Me career coaching can help you get out of that slump or help you start on a new path. They match you with a certified career coach. It's a real human. It's not an AI with questionable motives. And your career coach can help you strategize. They listen to what you want. They help you create a plan. And then this is so important. They hold you accountable so you don't just think about the thing, but you do the thing. And I've used Strawberry Me and they've helped me break things down, down into smaller steps. And I see that I can stretch myself a little creatively. I can do a live show, maybe here or there. And having someone who understands performance anxiety but still encourages me to keep going and tackle things has been really helpful. So if you're waiting for the right moment to level up, this is it. Go to Strawberry Me ologies and get 50% off your first coaching session. So that's strawberry me slash ologies. The new year is starting and you want a better life. You know what helps? Not worrying about what you have to wear. Capsule wardrobe. Yay. A couple pieces that you really love. Classic stuff that is not trendy and won't go out of style in like one month. And here's the deal. I love quints. Half of my wardrobe is quints. I have their cashmere sweaters in a long sleeve, short sleeve, a vest and a no sleeve. My pants, usually black, usually quince. The reason I love quince is their high quality, quality pieces. They're classic styles and you look put together without a lot of fuss. Every quince piece I have is great for layering, mixing. You can build a wardrobe that actually lasts again. Soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They also have 100 silk tops. They have skirts if you have to dress up. I love their denim. The cuts are great. So yeah, quints super on board. You will find me in black Quince cashmere almost every day. So refresh your wardrobe with quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.comologies for free shipping on your order. And they have 365 day returns now available in Canada too. So that's Q U I n c e.com Ologies to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Ologies you'll love it. Okay, so patrons can sign up via patreon.com Ologies and submit questions before we record. You can join for as little as a dollar a month and it supports the show. So let's hear some questions starting with oh.
- [44:29]
Dr. Faith Burden
Oh.
- [44:30]
Erin Talbert
Fernando Lopez Haro says hi.
- [44:33]
Dr. Faith Burden
First time question asker Fernando Lopez Haro from Mexico. Big fan of donkeys. I was wondering, when in evolutionary history did donkeys develop the ability to sweat and how different is their sweat to ours?
- [44:46]
Erin Talbert
Do you know anything about donkey sweat?
- [44:48]
Dr. Faith Burden
Interesting. Donkeys tend to sweat less than other equids. It is something that you see now in certain environments. You'll have horses, mules and donkeys all together. And donkeys don't tend to sweat anywhere near as much. They will, but it tends to be at much higher temperatures and that is because of their desert evolution. So they don't tend to trigger that response until much later than most other species. So they preserve their water.
- [45:20]
Erin Talbert
Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Luke Svatty asked if you find a lot of donkeys in ancient text and it sounds like yes you do. Susan said, hi, my name is Susan.
- [45:33]
Dr. Faith Burden
And I live in Seattle and I love your show. My question is that I read donkeys communicate by blowing in each other's noses. Is that true?
- [45:46]
Alie Ward
And if it is true, what kind.
- [45:48]
Dr. Faith Burden
Of information do they communicate?
- [45:50]
Erin Talbert
Do you ever see donkeys blow on each other's noses?
- [45:53]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yep. So they will definitely blow gently on each other's noses or on a hand that sort offered to them. And they also have a reaction that's called the Fleming reaction, which is where they curl up their top lip and very often you'll see people posting it as something cute or funny. That's the donkey getting smells into its olfactory system. And it's just something that they do to make sure they draw in as much smell as they possibly can. So the sense of smell is really important to donkeys, not least because they're territorial. So they leave markers, scent markers, to let others know who they are and what they're up to.
- [46:36]
Alie Ward
And so this Fleming reaction looks like a donkey is baring its upper teeth. And that word fleming means to bare the upper teeth or to look spiteful. But it helps the donkey push sense into their vomeronasal organ or Jacobson organ to figure out what it is they're smelling and what it all means. And I've mentioned this organ before, like in the ethno cynology episode and Gustatology episodes about domesticating dogs and the sense of taste. Those are two different episodes. And how I have a 13 year old daughter gremlin who is a dog and she will chatter her teeth, concentrating whenever she tastes something new she's trying to figure out. So it's the same things. Sometimes the taste she's trying to figure out is pee, her pee or another dog's pee. And yeah, I let her sleep in my bed next to my face and I try not to think about it.
- [47:28]
Erin Talbert
Speaking of their mouths, Olivia Lester wanted to know why do they wiggle lips side to side? And Peter Scheiss said that they watched a burrow in Death Valley take a big bite out of a pineapple cactus, chew it up and deftly spit the spines out intact. Are their mouths especially tough or are they just that talented?
- [47:48]
Dr. Faith Burden
Both. They are tough and talented, really is the answer. So again, they're a desert adapted animal that feeds normally on scrubby, thorny acacia trees, which are really woody, full of thorns. Their noses, as your other listener asked, why do they move around? They've got really mobile muzzles, which is actually there to try and avoid the thorns and the nasty bits. But they are really good at getting rid of what is not good for them because in the desert they don't have rich picking. So it's not like horses on, you know, wide open plains with lots of grass. Donkeys might have one shrub that they've got to get everything from for that day. So they do have these lovely mobile muzzles which do a great job of sorting out thorns and nasty bits of things like those cacti.
- [48:46]
Erin Talbert
And they don't get cut inside their mouth very rarely.
- [48:50]
Dr. Faith Burden
They're really, really clever at finding out the bits. And they have an incredibly powerful jaw. If you think about the head of a donkey, it's much bigger in proportion than the head of a horse to the body. And that's because they have a really muscled and heavy jaw to be able to eat woody plants and shrubs, not just grass, so they love grass, don't get me wrong. But a tree or a shrub, that's fine as well, for a donkey.
- [49:20]
Erin Talbert
That's so cool.
- [49:21]
Alie Ward
Patrons Lizzie Martinez and Kelsey Fant had donkey mouths on the brain.
- [49:25]
Erin Talbert
Speaking of teeth, Emily Schrader wanted to know what was the evolutionary need for such predominant front teeth. And then they want to preface no judgment. They are cute. Elise Bostic, their child Gabe wanted to know, why do they have teeth like humans? So, yeah, their front little choppers.
- [49:44]
Dr. Faith Burden
So they've got those front choppers, those incisors, and they're there to pinch at the grass or the tree or the bush. But also further back they've got the most amazing molars that grow constantly throughout their lives. And those molars are there to grind up that wood and that grass. So what you can see at the front is only the tip of the iceberg. These guys have got the most amazing dentition at the back and, and it does a fabulous job of grinding up those really quite tough plants. So you see the nice smiley bit at the front, but I promise you there's far more going in behind there.
- [50:25]
Erin Talbert
Do you ever have to brush donkey teeth?
- [50:26]
Dr. Faith Burden
Very rarely. So they do need dental care. So domesticated donkeys should have their teeth looked at at least once a year by a vet or another professional. And because they're domesticated, sometimes they need some help with, with sharp points that come just through normal grinding. And very, very occasionally they might have a medical reason that they need their teeth brushing. But let me tell you, it is not an easy job. Even with mint flavoured toothpaste. Brushing a donkey's teeth is not something that I would wish on anyone, quite honestly. So they're perfectly fine normally.
- [51:05]
Erin Talbert
Otherwise I imagine having to get one of those scrubber brushes that you use for like pots and pans, hands, just a long handle.
- [51:12]
Dr. Faith Burden
Best not to.
- [51:13]
Erin Talbert
Best not to.
- [51:14]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Erin Talbert
Speaking of teeth, a lot of people had a question about an Internet video they saw or firsthand experience. Pam wanted to know. They said my neighbor had to sell her donkeys because they were picking up her newborn calves in their mouth and carrying them. Is this normal? Heather Crane and Alie Wards wanted to know about the Internet donkey that, that bites little goats on the back and carries them around when they get into his pen. Is that normal?
- [51:43]
Alie Ward
In.
- [51:43]
Erin Talbert
In nature?
- [51:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
This is unfortunately a normal donkey trait and one that is not funny. It's actually really serious when you see those. Those videos.
- [51:54]
Alie Ward
My bad.
- [51:55]
Dr. Faith Burden
So donkeys are cute and lovable and we all think that they are gentle. But as I've said, donkeys have, have quite an adapted fight response. And if something is in their territory that they don't perceive as belonging in their territory, they will try to get rid of that animal. And unfortunately, the donkey carrying around the small goat or the lamb or the dog, that isn't funny. That's a donkey actually displaying quite aggressive behavior, normal behavior I have to say. And that's why my experience would always say, do not put smaller animals with donkeys unless you have introduced those animals incredibly carefully. You do see circumstances where donkeys live alongside goats, sheep, but it's often a baby is born. So you get a kid go, or you might get a lamb. Donkey doesn't know where that's come from, and it may attack the animal. So, yeah, what looks cute is actually not.
- [53:07]
Erin Talbert
I'm afraid that's not just play behavior.
- [53:10]
Dr. Faith Burden
Not at all.
- [53:12]
Erin Talbert
No.
- [53:12]
Dr. Faith Burden
That's the donkey's evolutionary fight response. Because we have to remember that wolves in their environment or, you know, other animals are a threat. And our cute domesticated donkey has only had 7,000 years to overcome that. That. And of course, they haven't. So we do recommend people are really careful with donkeys and other livestock and pets.
- [53:37]
Erin Talbert
Is there a way to introduce another pet or animal, like on the other side of a fence and let them get to know each other?
- [53:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah, you can. And that's what we would always advise is somebody lets the donkey see the animal frequently and get used to it. Sometimes donkeys will decide that that animal is one of them, and that's fine. I would always be careful. I have to say, I think if a companion starts to show that they're not quite right, maybe they're poorly, maybe they've had a, you know, a funny reaction to something. I think you've just got to be careful because the donkey isn't doing anything wrong. And we get lots of calls about donkeys that people don't want anymore because they were cute and cuddly, and then they attacked the neighbor's dog or the new lamb, but the donkey's just doing what nature intended it to do.
- [54:31]
Erin Talbert
So donkeys are gonna donkey.
- [54:33]
Dr. Faith Burden
And, you know, people do use that trait for human benefit. So you will see guard donkeys. So guard donkeys are often used in America, also in Australia and other parts of the world, where they're kept with flocks of sheep or goats, and they protect them against wolves and coyotes and predators, and that trait then becomes valuable to humans.
- [54:57]
Erin Talbert
I feel like people underestimate how smart and fierce a donkey could be. So I could see that being very advantageous, almost like a sleeper donkey, that you're like, oh, whoa, I thought I.
- [55:09]
Alie Ward
Could mess with that.
- [55:10]
Erin Talbert
What about play? So we know that picking up another animal is not play, but do they like to play games? Ashley Mars said, it seems like donkeys have a greater need for play than horses. What are their favorite enrichment items? And Heather Livingston Canadian gal eating dog hair for a living. Lily and Bat Raichi both wanted to know about this.
- [55:31]
Dr. Faith Burden
Great question. Donkeys love to play. Big dog toys can often be quite popular. They also really love rubber items. So things like a bucket made out of old tire rubber that's designed to be, you know, have feed in it for the donkeys very often that's their favourite toy. Tug of war is a very common game with particularly boy donkeys. Two boy donkeys, they like balls, so old footballs can be very popular. They really like grabbing, you know, good solid, safe items, throwing them around. They also will very often steal grooming brushes to play with and ropes and things like that. So basically anything that's big enough to get in their mouth but safe. And they can also enjoy enrichment. So we might provide our donkeys with, with safe branches from trees or, you know, items that we've smeared something that smells really good. So they like quite strong tasting and strong smelling things. So actually a lot of the items that you've got around your barn or your yard are pretty good play items. Just got to change them. Donkeys like novelty, leave the same toy in with them for the whole year. They won't play with it after a day or two, really swap it in and out and you'll have very happy donkeys.
- [57:01]
Erin Talbert
Two donkeys playing tug of war. I'm sure that you have seen it a lot though.
- [57:05]
Dr. Faith Burden
It never gets old. I love it. And I don't know what they're called in America, but we call them wellies Wellington boots and rubber Wellington boots with no metal pieces. The ultimate donkey toy. So when your boots have got holes in them, you can pass them safely onto your donkeys and enjoy watching them.
- [57:26]
Erin Talbert
What about baby donkeys? Are they the cutest things in the world? Melissa Quinn wanted to ask what the flip is up with their weirdly variable gestation period. Is it a feature or a bug?
- [57:37]
Dr. Faith Burden
Your listener is absolutely right. It can be anything from 11 months to 13 and sometimes longer.
- [57:44]
Erin Talbert
What?
- [57:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
So donkey Jenny's just seemed to have this, this ability to hold on to their foals until they're ready and they feel safe. So it is widely variable and they give much subtler signs of being ready to have their foals than horses. And it's again an evolutionary adaptation, so they probably would just hold back until food was more plentiful or until they felt they were safe away from predators. But we will often see it when neglected and uncared for. Donkeys come into our care that are already pregnant, that they'll wait until they feel safe and secure, often longer than we expect. You know, they've got to feel ready. And then in the dead of night, the foal's born. And there is nothing cuter than a donkey foal. They are gorgeous.
- [58:43]
Erin Talbert
They're kind of gangly. Rain.
- [58:45]
Alie Ward
Right.
- [58:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
They're tall, they're gangly, they're very fluffy. That's always the surprise of donkey foals is how deep their fur is and how lively they are as well. So donkey foals are just full of stuff and nonsense and love careering around. Donkey mums tend to be quite calm and patient. But yeah, donkey foals are just a delight. Can't get anything better.
- [59:12]
Erin Talbert
We had a few people. Jill Burnham, William Russell, Hannah Katsuiano Hudson and Charlie W. First time question asker, Charlie asked. I've heard that donkey milk is similar to human milk and might be good for lactose intolerant people. A lot of people wanted to know why is their milk like humans? And we did a cheese episode recently where we talked a little bit about donkey cheese. Have you ever had donkey milk?
- [59:36]
Alie Ward
What is.
- [59:37]
Erin Talbert
What's going on there?
- [59:38]
Dr. Faith Burden
I haven't had donkey milk for some good reasons. So donkey milk milk is biochemical profile is similar to human milk and probably more similar to human milk than other mammals. There's been a long history of people believing that donkey milk was both good to drink but also to bathe in. So Cleopatra bathed in asses milk.
- [60:04]
Alie Ward
Just a heads up, the history does get cloudy here. But it's fun, it's horrifying and it's fun. So yeah, Cleopatra was said to have bathed in donkey milk and washed her face with it. But other history nerds assert that a later royal Nero's wife Poppaea was the one who was known for this milk ritual. Honestly, this woman, a Dunkin ass milk was like the least salacious thing about her life because this wife of Nero, she reportedly cheated on one husband with the Roman emperor Nero, who had killed his mother for the throne and who executed his former wife, who was also his stepsister, and then later killed his son with Papaea while they were on a fishing trip.
- [60:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
Trip.
- [60:45]
Alie Ward
And Poppaea herself may have died at her own husband's hand. And by that I mean foot, because he allegedly kicked her in the stomach to death. So I was like just trying to look up donkey milk baths and being like, what the fuck is happening here? People like horrifying emperors, but still, why the donkey milk? And turns out the reason why people with money Smear donkey butter on themselves is kind of simple drugstore chemistry. So let's have a look at the 2015 paper Epidermal permeability Barrier in the Treatment of Keratosis pilaris, which notes that the efficacy for lactic acid in helping exfoliate and replenish skin is known. So, like, if you've ever gotten like little bumps on the back of your arms or just in general in your body, lactic acid can help that. And we learned that lactic acid in our recent microbiome episode is formed when milk sours or ferments. The lactose turns into lactic acid. But if you don't have a donkey and an empire, you just go get yourself some moisturizer with lactic acid in it to make sure that your skin bumps go away and you keep things fresh.
- [61:57]
Dr. Faith Burden
So we're, you know, we've got a long history of donkey milk, but many of the donkeys that produce donkey milk don't have the best life. So donkey mothers tend to only produce a very small amount of milk. And, and you know that milk is very, very highly priced and very expensive. But donkey milk production systems, not all of them, but some of them are not welfare minded. And donkey cheese again is quite a sort of popular thing. But it takes so many liters of donkey milk to make a tiny amount of cheese. So that's a lot of foals that are not getting to suckle from their mum to make that cheese. You know, it has scientific basis and we know that the Infants Hospital in Paris in the 1800s used to have donkey jennies alongside to feed small babies that couldn't feed from their mum. So there's a long history, there's good science, but welfare is not always at the heart of the industry. There are some good small producers that we've worked with to try and improve their practices. But where there's a profit to be made, often animal welfare isn't the primary importance.
- [63:21]
Erin Talbert
I didn't necessarily want to eat donkey cheese, but now I actively don't want to eat donkey cheese. So that works out well for me, I think.
- [63:29]
Tide Advertiser
Good.
- [63:29]
Erin Talbert
You mentioned newborns and I've seen this thing where they have fairy feet. They have what looks like blubbery fingers on the ends of their feet and it is cute and ghoulish. But can you tell me a little bit about that and a little bit about their hooves?
- [63:45]
Dr. Faith Burden
It does look something like Halloween, doesn't it? So the fairy feet are there at birth. They very quickly go. But that's an adaptation to make sure that the jenny isn't hurt during birth. So it's a soft covering of the donkey foals. Otherwise quite solid feet that could do a lot of damage. But they do look quite ghoulish. Donkey feet, apart from those first few hours after birth, are amazing. So they again, are highly adapted to the environment that they come from. So very tough, very rarely need shoes putting on, unlike horses. But they are adapted to dry conditions. So when we see donkeys kept in temperate climates and where, you know, it's damp underfoot, they get lots and lots of, lots of medical problems from being in that environment. So that's one of the biggest issues that we face with donkeys around the world, is weather and underfoot, issues that cause lameness and major hoof problems.
- [64:51]
Erin Talbert
Do they tend to get infected or are their hooves wetter than they kind of would be otherwise and so they're more porous or something?
- [65:01]
Dr. Faith Burden
They most certainly are. So we always describe donkey feet like sponges. So if you look under a microscope at a horse's hoof material versus a donkey's, the donkey's is much more open, will soak up much more water, which is great when you're in the desert because you need to soak up whatever droplets of water are available. But if you're a donkey living in the southwest of England, where I am, where you have lots of rain, if you're not careful, those feet can get waterlogged and that leads to infections. So you get soft, crumbly feet, you get nasty bacterial and fungal infections. So top tip for donkey owners is please, please make sure your donkeys get some dry standing somewhere every day. Areas that have got low rainfall are brilliant for donkeys, but anywhere that gets lots of rainfall, particularly if it's warm as well, that's donkey foot nightmare time, I'm afraid.
- [65:59]
Erin Talbert
A few people asked about that. Keegan Newman wanted to know, do donkeys or mules ever benefit from horseshoes?
- [66:05]
Alie Ward
This question was afoot among patrons. Mini, Mini, Katie Seeger and Stephanie, they all wanted to know hoof stuff.
- [66:11]
Erin Talbert
Can you put a wellie on their foot? Does that ever happen?
- [66:15]
Dr. Faith Burden
So some donkeys and mules are shod and they can benefit from it in certain conditions. I would say most donkeys, Yankees do not need shoes and it's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Some mules that are working in particularly tough environments or that are going on roads, a lot can really benefit from shoes. But again, most mules will do just fine without putting a man made metal shoe on their foot that they don't really need. But us humans are great at thinking we can improve our nature, aren't we? Yes and absolutely. They're pretty good.
- [66:51]
Erin Talbert
Well, Shivani Rohan Hetchel said they were a horse girl growing up and always wondered why mules seem to have very upright feet compared to horses. And Stephanie asked, is it true that donkeys can see all four of their hooves at the same time and horses can't? And Mini Me also wanted to know, is that why they're so sure footed? Katie Seeger also volunteers at a sanctuary where there are mules and donkeys. Donkeys.
- [67:15]
Dr. Faith Burden
Oh amazing, right?
- [67:17]
Erin Talbert
And asked about hoofly shoes too. But do they have a really different structure? Is that why they're more sure footed?
- [67:23]
Dr. Faith Burden
Yeah. So what brilliant questions from your listeners. So the donkey, and by virtue the mule has a much more upright hoof. So as your listener said, they're much more boxy, we often say, and they're much smaller, much more compact. Again we go back to the evolution the donkey has adapted to live in mountainous terrains with tiny little tracks. So big feet like you might find on a Clydesdale or on a thoroughbred are not going to help you. You're going to go over the side of the cliff if you're not careful. So donkeys have a very narrow chest. You'll notice that they don't have big muscles like horses and they have very close front feet and back feet. And that means that they can pick their way very carefully along really steep, treacherous mountain tracks with their tiny upright feet.
- [68:20]
Alie Ward
So this means that as opposed to horses, donkeys have kind of taller hoofs with less of an angle at the bottom than a horse does. So imagine like a horse's hoof is a wedge heel and a donkey's is like a point shoe if you like exaggerated analogy. Geez, that's as good as I've got for you.
- [68:37]
Dr. Faith Burden
And they're not going to endanger themselves by going over the side. That does mean that they're not as fast as their horse cousins because they're different, but they're perfectly adapted for the place that they are. When you think about the Grand Canyon, why do we think most of the equids working in the Grand Canyon are mules? It's because they're sure footed. So that ability to, to adapt and cope with really quite dangerous environments is innate to donkeys and by virtue mules. So those little boxy feet are just designed for where they are supposed to live.
- [69:19]
Alie Ward
And if you're wondering how much burden These beautiful beasts can handle. I was also wondering that. And it depends on how big they are and also who you ask. And According to a 2022 paper, the welfare concerns for mounted load carrying by working donkeys in Pakistan in the journal Frontiers of Veterina Science, there's little research, they say, regarding mounted load carrying limitations of working donkeys. But larger donkeys can carry what handlers tend to say is about 28% of their body weight, or around 100 pounds. But some research out of India says that they can carry up to 50% of their body weight. And in some heavy labor conditions, like in masonry, donkeys have been noted to carry nearly 120% of their body weight. But the study notes that donkeys, turkeys loaded at more than 50% body weight were more likely to splay out when they lie down, which is a sign of back issues, which is not shocking considering that they're carrying more than their body weight in like bricks. But horses, on the other hand, which are larger, obviously, they can safely carry 15 to 25% of their body weight. So much less. And mules, remember, the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse can carry up to 30% of their body weight. So they are stronger than horses. So, patron Pacheco Joe at are donkeys happy to carry our stuff for us on a hike? And if so, how much is too much? And Honeybee also asked about donkey rides. And Carissa May said, under what conditions should pack donkeys be freed from traversing trails like the Grand Canyon? Is that humane work or should humans hoof that trail unaided?
- [70:53]
Erin Talbert
How do you feel about donkey or mule tours? Riding a donkey for some reason I see that and I think, I don't know how well they're treated. I don't think I could do it. Is it kind of a bit of.
- [71:04]
Dr. Faith Burden
A rack me for There can be some good ones. I think we have to be really clear that there are some operators, and particularly small operators that do a great job. We have to think that a donkey or a horse actually is adapted to travel maybe 20 kilometers a day in their natural environment. They would be exercising, they would be seeing novel situations, and they would be experiencing lots of, lots of changes of environment. When we domesticate them, we take that away from them most of the time. And good work, where the animal's welfare is absolutely critical, can be at least neutral. Not bad for the animal. It can imitate some of what they would have in their natural environment, however. But again, when profit becomes the primary focus, sometimes animal welfare is forgotten. But if you are thinking about going on these tours or these rides, have a look at the animal yourself. Are there signs of infection? Are there sores or rubs? How does the person running those rides interact with their animals? Are they kind? Are they gentle? How do they talk about them? Do they have a name? Is it an it or is it Geri or Romeo or whoever? Ask those simple questions and if you're not sure, don't do it.
- [72:37]
Alie Ward
So, yes, your actual mileage may vary depending on the outfitter, but for the love of donkeys, do some research. Now, if a mule or donkey has been neglected or retired, do you think it could be up for the job of your best friend, you know?
- [72:52]
Erin Talbert
Last listener question. A lot of folks, Dave Dwelly wanted to know if someone's daughter was able to have a rescue donkey, what environment would be most comfortable for that donkey? Would two or three rescue donkeys be happier together? And Kelsey Fant wanted to know what are some financial obligations to donkey ownership? Lauren Robinson, Peyton, Nil, Mandel, Viscousy and Rosa wanted to know. Give us some tips on donkey care. I know you could write, write like an actual encyclopedia and this is what you do. But if someone were to rescue a donkey or has a donkey or is getting one for a homestead, what do you want them to know?
- [73:30]
Dr. Faith Burden
Okay, most important thing is do not have a donkey on its own. So that one donkey, make sure it's got a buddy. Donkeys love the company of other donkeys and do not thrive unless they've got companionship. So that's number one. Number two is, is some kind of shelter. So donkeys can't just be left out on a pasture and forgotten about. They need a barn, a simple shelter so that if it rains or it's really cold and windy, they can get out of those conditions. And they need dry under their feet, so they need somewhere that it's not going to be wet and muddy that they can get out of. Again, poor weather donkeys do not need to eat rich feeds. So many of the problems that we see where donkeys are pets and companions, they're overfed, so they're given sweet feeds, they're given high energy feeds made for horses or cattle. Donkeys do very well on low quality fibres like straw and, and get to know your donkey. So most importantly, after you've given them all of those things, the one thing that they will thank you for more than anything is spending time with them.
- [74:51]
Alie Ward
My heart.
- [74:52]
Dr. Faith Burden
You know, get to know them, brush them, train them, take them out for walks. You see lots of people going out for walks with their donkeys and get to know their personality, because if they're not well or something is wrong, it's that knowledge of them as an individual that will let you know. And so often it's a tiny, tiny change in their behavior that will say, I'm not very well or something's going on. So time, shelter, not too much of the sweet stuff, a good companion and lots of love and then hopefully you've got a happy and healthy donkey. But there's lots of resources out there and the donkey sanctuary has, has tons on our website. So if people want to know more about how to look after donkeys, have a look and we can help you.
- [75:44]
Alie Ward
So that's thedonkeysanctuary.org and it's linked in the show notes.
- [75:49]
Dr. Faith Burden
Final thing, finances. Donkeys are not cheap, so you need to make sure you've got those yearly vaccines. You've got to do the yearly dentistry. Feet need trimming every eight weeks. They might get sick, they might need extra food and they are probably going to live at least into their mid 20s, if not 30s. So it's a long term commitment. They're the most rewarding animals to have in your lives, but it's a big commitment. So make sure you're ready and then have a fantastic time with them.
- [76:25]
Erin Talbert
A word of advice or is there something that is the hardest part about your job or working with donkeys? I imagine fundraising has got to be. Be probably harder than actually going out and checking on the donkeys, right? But is there something about the work that is the hardest?
- [76:41]
Dr. Faith Burden
It's getting people to say goodbye at the right time. And the end of any animal's life is difficult for their human carers. But donkeys are part of the family and they're, they're tough and often they are stoic. So they will continue on with terrible problems with their feet and their teeth or a working animal that's really valuable to its family and is part of that family. But there comes a time when we have to say goodbye sometimes. And with donkeys, because they live so long and we get so attached to them and they're so quiet about their suffering. And I think that is the hardest thing that I have to deal with is seeing animals that need to be let go, but then also seeing how devastated owners are. But we love our animals and it's the last great goodbye that we can give them. So that's the hardest part. Fundraising is always tough. There are so many competing organizations and donkeys are associated with you know, very often either something funny or some of the poorest people in the world. But I always like to think if we help donkeys, we're helping people too, which makes it just so fantastic. So.
- [78:14]
Erin Talbert
And what about the, like, best part of your day or like the best part of donkeys? Is there a part that you're just like, oh, I love that.
- [78:23]
Alie Ward
Us.
- [78:24]
Dr. Faith Burden
Oh, every day, probably any time that I get to step away from budgets and, you know, managing people and actually get to go and spend time with donkeys, whether it's here on one of our sanctuary sites in England or if it's in Ethiopia or India, just getting that quiet moment where with donkeys is such a privilege and also seeing a. When you make a difference to an animal how its life turns around, but also if you can help that donkey's family as well. It's just, it's such a wonderful feeling. But there's nothing better than a donkey blowing gently on the back of your hand saying, I'm here, could you come and scratch my ear, please? They're just so gentle. And I think that's the best bit is working with just such charismatic animals.
- [79:26]
Erin Talbert
I think it's funny. People listening are probably like currently googling like the closest donkey sanctuary to go. Visit to go pet a donkey.
- [79:35]
Dr. Faith Burden
Go visit, go and support them, Go and learn more. And then it will become a lifelong addiction.
- [79:43]
Alie Ward
So ask astounding people, yes, asinine questions because their brains are as big as their hearts. And thank you again to Dr. Faith Burden for all the work you do with the donkey sanctuary. And I hope this inspires you, dear listener, to visit an animal sanctuary near you. Give a donkey a pet at least a wink. We will link to the donkey sanctuary social media handles in the show notes and for more studies you can look on our website@alieward.com ologies asinology we also have shorter kid friendly versions of Ologies every week for free. They're called smologies S M O L O G I E S and you could subscrib subscribe to them in their own feed. Wherever you get podcasts, tell your friends we are logies on Bluesky and Instagram. I'm Allie Ward with 1L on both Ologies merch is available at ologiesmerch.com and to support the show you can also join our patreon@patreon.com Ologies huge, huge. Happy birthday this past week to my forever friend and the admin of the Ologies podcast Facebook group. You know her. Erin Talbert. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer does the website. Leading us down our rocky path is scheduling producer Noelle Dilworth. Managing director is Susan Hale, who handles everything from masonry to baby lambs. And splitting the heavy load of editing each week are Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. Nick Thorburn braid the theme music. And if you stick around to the very end of the show, you know I may burden you with a secret from my life. And this week it's that I started reading youg Podmother Jeff favorite book, which is this fantasy action series called Heroes Die because I wanted to be familiar with these characters and lore that he read a long time ago that are in his brain. And like the first few pages are brutal. I was like, what is this? And then I was like, oh, okay. They're like setting up a character like this for a reason. Got it. Anyway, tore through the whole thing. Loved it. Very underrated fantasy sci fi book Heroes Die by Matthew Stover. And also it's just cute to know that these are characters that like live in his brain. But also he started reading a favorite book of mine I've always loved called My side of the Mountain, which is about this little kid who runs off to the woods to live alone. And it's set in the 60s, which is I guess like why his parents didn't get arrested for child neglect. But anyway, if you have friends or family members, maybe ask what their favorite book is or start a little book club where you take turns reading each other's favorite comfort book book. It's just kind of a nice thing to do and it helps you get to know the people that you already know even better. Okay, organize locally. Buck Ice. Stay strong. Love each other. Bye.
- [82:14]
Dr. Faith Burden
Bye.
- [82:14]
Alie Ward
Pachydermatology, Homeology, Cryptozoology, Litology, Nanotechnology, Meteorology, Olmectology, Mapology, Serology, Selenology.
- [82:34]
T-Mobile Advertiser
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- [82:35]
Alie Ward
How am I going to get this donkey?
- [82:37]
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- [83:05]
T-Mobile Advertiser
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Erin Talbert
This trip is draining my wallet.
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Alie Ward
Yeah, but we'll be with family. You're in a good mood.
- [83:12]
T-Mobile Advertiser
What's your deal?
- [83:13]
Dr. Faith Burden
What's my deal?
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Alie Ward
I saved at Metro with no activation fees and I got one line of 5G for just $25 per month. Kept the phone I love and a.
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Dr. Faith Burden
5 year price guarantee on my top.
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Erin Talbert
Tuxed data detour to Metro.
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Alie Ward
Get that more for your money feeling Only at Metro by T Mobile Just.
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Erin Talbert
Bring your number $30 first month and.
- [83:29]
Alie Ward
$25 after with autopay not available if with Metro or T Mobile in the past 180 days.