Bisonology (BUFFALO) Encore with various bisonologists

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward: Bisonology (BUFFALO) Encore

Original Air Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Alie Ward
Guests: Dr. Ken Cannon (archaeologist/anthropologist), Dr. Dan McNulty (ecologist), Lila Evans (Montana State Legislator, Blackfeet Nation member), Boyd Evans (rancher)

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Episode Overview

This encore episode of Ologies is all about bison ("buffalo"). Host Alie Ward takes listeners on a quirky, science-rich, and often hilarious exploration of North America’s largest land mammal by interviewing a diverse cast: an archaeologist, an ecologist, a Montana legislator, and a hands-on rancher.
The episode delves into bison biology, their fraught history and miraculous recovery, the nuances of buffalo vs. bison terminology, the animal’s cultural significance, the politics of preservation, and many delightful bison facts.

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Main Guests

• Dr. Ken Cannon – Research professor of anthropology, Utah State University; expert in bison archaeology (ancient bison, kill sites, U.S. West).
• Dr. Dan McNulty – Ecologist, Utah State University; longtime Yellowstone animal behavior researcher, specializing in modern bison.
• Lila Evans – Member of the Blackfeet Nation; former Montana State Representative; bison rancher.
• Boyd Evans – Rancher; longtime bison steward; brings practical insights into raising buffalo and Native perspectives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What’s a Bisonologist?

• [05:42] Alie (to Ken): “You’re a bisonologist?”
  Ken: “That’s part of my job, yes. … I hadn’t heard that term before.”
• Both Ken and Dan embrace the “bisonologist” label, even if they’ve never heard it before.

2. Early Fascination & Careers in Bisonology

• Ken’s journey: From marine biology aspirations in New Jersey to bison archaeology out West, inspired by finding bison bones at a Grand Teton dig site. “How can you minimize bison in the archaeological record when all the bones you’re finding are bison bones?” (07:03)
• Dan’s journey: Born in Illinois, raised in California, hooked on the sciences after a stint in Hong Kong—career pivot crystallized in Yellowstone (15:03): “You work hard and focus, it’s possible to make this a career.”

3. Bison vs. Buffalo: What’s the Difference?

• [19:58] Consensus among all guests: Use either term, “no such thing as the difference” (Boyd & Lila).
• Etymology: “Buffalo” is a misapplied term but has stuck; “bison” is technically accurate for our North American species.
• Taxonomy: Bison bison (Plains and Wood Bison, the latter being bigger), with ongoing taxonomic debates (20:29).

4. Deep Bison Time: Evolution & History

• Bison migrated from Eurasia ~20 million years ago (23:04), survived several species transitions (Bison latifrons, then Bison antiquus, then modern bison).
• Bison latifrons: “huge, huge, huge horns—like 10ft long… just a monster.” (23:32)

5. Near Extinction: A Cautionary Tale

• Late 1800s: Human-driven collapse from 30 million to as few as two dozen bison in the wild (28:34).
• Bison elimination was used to drive Indigenous people onto reservations: “Bison were weaponized in a lot of ways.” (29:15, Dan)
• Remarkable recovery: From the hidden pockets of Yellowstone’s remote Pelican Valley to 5,000 bison in Yellowstone today.

6. Bison Life, Biology, and Behavior

• Sizing: Bulls up to 1200+ lbs, females around 800 lbs (25:51).
• Anatomy: Majestic beards ("They've been hipsters for a long time", 26:48), hulking humps (energy & fat stores), thick fur (insulation, sheds in summer).
• Social structure: Bulls roam, females with cow-calf groups, rut season full of bison drama (30:27).
• Counting bison: “With aircraft…they’re so big, they’re actually easy to count.” (32:33, Dan)

7. Myth Busting: Bison Are Not Cows

• "Yellowstone is not a petting zoo." (34:35, Ken)
• Bison: “Fairly tolerant... more than I would be,” but still wild and dangerous; can run 30mph, not to be underestimated (73:03).
• Brucellosis: Often blamed on bison, but “To the best of my knowledge, there has not been any instance of bison infecting livestock…all transmission has involved elk.” (54:59, Dan)

8. Bison and Indigenous Peoples

• Lila (Blackfeet): “Historically…they [the Blackfeet] followed the buffalo. … When their hides became valuable back East…everybody went to killing buffalo.” (18:00)
• Intertribal Buffalo Council (ITBC): Actively restoring bison to tribal lands for cultural, ecological, and spiritual purposes (41:21, 57:29).

9. Raising & Ranching Bison

• “They’re a lot smarter [than cows]…way more social…run around in one little pack.” (44:39, Lila & Boyd)
• Treats: “They love crab apples!” (46:27)
• Bison meat: Tastier and leaner than beef; the commercial bison you eat is not from conservation herds (44:12, 80:26).
• “Not all bison burgers are created equal,” and many chain restaurants sell older/leaner/higher-fat meat.

10. Buffalo Culture and Symbolism

• White buffalo: “Big medicine” to the Blackfeet, deeply spiritual significance (91:19).
• Bison in dreams: “A symbol of survival and abundance...pay attention to the path you’re following.” (33:44)

11. Conservation, Coexistence & Future of Bison

• Limited range due to housing/agriculture: “Wildlife is increasingly hemmed in…” (48:12, Dan)
• Population ceiling is a social, not biological, decision: “If we want more bison, we can have more. The question is whether we’re willing to make the tradeoffs.” (50:54)
• Most herds are on ranches; wild herds are carefully managed, sometimes with regulated hunting.
• Not Endangered? “Even though they were down to a couple dozen…they have never been on the endangered species list.” (81:20, Ken)

12. Listener Q&A Highlights

• European bison: Smaller, woodland-adapted cousins (64:25).
• Are bison related to mammoths? “Not in the least, other than they’re mammals.” (72:40)
• Bison's small butts: “It’s all in the hump…business in the front. Look at my hump.” (71:46)
• Bison wallowing: Behavior for shedding fur and removing parasites, not just emo vibes (69:17).
• Birds (magpies) on bison: “They’re eating parasites...ticks, flies, things like that.” (77:10)
• “Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo…” sentence: Grammar fun—see [78:51] for the full mental gymnastic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How can you minimize bison in the archaeological record when all the bones that you’re finding are bison bones?” – Ken, [07:03]
• “Bison were weaponized... They were being eliminated to basically drive Indians onto reservations.” – Dan, [29:15]
• “The bison from Buffalo who are buffaloed by buffalo from Buffalo, buffalo other buffalo from Buffalo.” – Alie, [79:08], explaining the crazy grammar sentence
• “They’re a lot smarter...[than cows] They’re Independent. They’re wildlife.” – Lila & Boyd, [44:39]
• “Wildlife is increasingly hemmed in...it’s not just an issue of livestock grazing; it's pavement, houses, fences, swing sets.” – Dan, [48:12]

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Important Timestamps

• Etymology (“bison” & “weasel” connection): [04:30]
• Archaeology of bison kill sites: [06:03]
• Decline from 30M to a few dozen bison: [28:34]
• Counting bison by aircraft: [32:33]
• Bison herd structure and migration: [30:27], [26:10]
• Indigenous perspectives on buffalo: [18:00], [41:21]
• Taxonomy and wood bison: [20:29], [22:24]
• Brucellosis/myth-busting: [54:59]
• Bison and birds: [77:10]
• Fur insulation capacity: [65:37]
• Q&A rapid fire (fun facts): [63:18]–[73:36]

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Fun Facts (“Did You Know?”)

• “Bison bison” is the scientific name; “Bison bison bison” can technically be correct.
• Early bison (Bison latifrons) had horns nearly 10 feet across.
• Bison were nearly driven extinct as a deliberate act of colonial genocide.
• Bison wallows are actual pits formed by behavior, not just emotional wallowing!
• Bison can “shed” their coats by rolling; their fur insulates so well that snow doesn’t melt on their backs at –30°F.

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Organizations & Resources Mentioned

• Intertribal Buffalo Council (ITBC): itbcbuffalonation.org – Tribal bison restoration, education, and advocacy.
• All My Relations podcast: For Indigenous perspectives.
• Ed Yong’s Atlantic article: “What America lost when it lost the bison.”

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Closing: The Heart of the Matter

At its core, this episode is about the weird magic of bison—how they're misunderstood, adored, and woven into the fabric of North America. Alie’s joyful curiosity and her guests’ deep knowledge make this a must-listen for nature nerds, history buffs, and anyone interested in how animals reflect--and challenge--our own cultures.

Final word:

“If we want more bison, we can have more. There are ways of doing that… it’s a social, not a biological, decision.” – Dr. Dan McNulty, [50:54]

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For more information and links: alieward.com/ologies/bisonology

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(Summary excludes all advertisements, credits, and non-content sections.)

Transcript

[Allie Ward]

Oh, hey, welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa.

[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

Wow, iPhone 17s.

[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Allie Ward]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

[Interviewer/Host]

No AT T Mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

[Allie Ward]

Incredible.

[Interviewer/Host]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa.

[Allie Ward]

Forget that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Allie Ward]

Sounds like my family drama.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

[Allie Ward]

To T Mobile.

[Interviewer/Host]

The holidays are better.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

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[Allie Ward]

Get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch. Plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line. With 24 monthly bill credits and four eligible board inside essentials for well qualified customers. Bought a pay plus taxes, fees and $35 device connection charge credits and imbalance.

[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Allie Ward]

A lot in the last 140 years.

[Interviewer/Host]

We know because Multicare has been here.

[Allie Ward]

Guided by a single purpose.

[Interviewer/Host]

Making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@ multicare.org oh, hi. So 2025 me here and last night was our first ever live in person show. It was at the Bell House in Brooklyn and it was so fun. I got to see so many of you in person. We talked about tree SAP. We talk about funeral bells. I don't know if we're ever going to release that one. It was just sort of a fun experiment and I think I'll go on the road more in the future. But this is an encore episode just because it's been kind of a heavy week and I'm going to take a couple days off. Okay, Enjoy this one. I love it. Oh, hey, it's your forgotten half can of Lacroix. That's just cold. Just fizzy enough to keep drinking it and not throw it away. Alie ward back with a very, very weird, odd episode of Ologies. If this is not your first Ologies rodeo You know that each episode I usually talk to one ologist, but for some reason I don't know man, bison just threw us for a very rare loop. So this episode is kind of more like a buffalo party. And thank you to patrons of the show who support us. Anyone in ologies merch from ologiesmerch.com we have smallogies. They're shorter kid friendly episodes. They're available now in their own feed. Thank you to everyone who leaves reviews. I read them all. This is 2025 me thanking MrM Kennedy for the review. That said, going through the worst breakup my poor meat robot has ever be bopped through. Thank you for this treasure trove of tiny joys and distractions. MrM Kennedy. My heart wishes your heart the best. Maybe a good rebound okay Bisonology so bison, it's Baltic or Slavic origin. It comes from the word wesund which means the stinking animal because of its musk while rutting. And the word bison is distantly related to the word weasel which is also stinky. So weasel and bison. One is hulking, billowing steam into the cold air and and the other is a sock with a face. Etymology y'. All. Okay, so you're gonna hear from Ken Cannon, who is a New Jersey born, a now Utah based research professor of anthropology at Utah State University who studies ancient bison and gives talks like rolling thunder. 10,000 years of bison in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. And he has short cropped hair, rosy cheeks and a salt and pepper goatee. He looks like he could have been a rugby player and and another life. So that's Ken. And he brought along Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty who spent years in Yellowstone studying animal behavior and he has sandy blonde hair. He's a little more wiry than Ken and I cannot explain why, but Dan looks like a Ken and Ken looks like a Dan and that screwed me up editing this entire episode. But yes, Dan studies the more modern era of bison. Lila Evans is my beloved cousin in law and she served in the Montana House of Representatives. And I always just picture her in a business blazer even though she's probably more likely like bundled in fleece because it's Montana. And her longtime husband is my cousin Boyd Evans, who's tall and gangly and wrangler jeans. He has a handlebar mustache and a rain stained cowboy hat and a great laugh. So I told you this is a weird and wonderful episode and a break from the usual format. So hop on, hang tight and learn how big a bison is, what their fur feels like how many there used to be, how many there are now, how do they do a head count? And what that lumpy hump is for, what a bison's favorite treat is and what noises they make, and the difference between raising cows and bison and how their very existence and survival has been politicized and continues to be. And also maybe the worst sentence in the English language as we talk to academics and hands on ranchers, all four of whom in their own way are professional bisonologists. Okay, let's get right into it. So the first person I had approached was the one I interviewed and I. Dr. Ken Cannon. And you're a bisonologist?

[Allie Ward]

That's part of my jobs, yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is this news to you that you're a bisonologist?

[Allie Ward]

Yes, it is, very much so. I hadn't heard that term before.

[Interviewer/Host]

Would you ever use that term in a cocktail party, like, hi, I'm a bisonologist?

[Allie Ward]

I think so.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, I think so.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, you're welcome.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, thank you.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so how long have you been studying bison?

[Allie Ward]

Well, I first got interested in bison when I started working for national park service in 1987 when I was just a little kid. Kid. And I got interested in it because we were working at Grand Teton national park and there was an archaeological site there that referred to itself as a bison kill site, a bison jump site. It was interpreted numerous different ways. And at the time there weren't that many bison in grand teton National Park.

[Interviewer/Host]

P.S. grand Teton is in Wyoming. And if you're like, I'm in New Zealand, I have no idea where your parks are. Isn't Yellowstone in Wyoming? The answer is yes, and I'm sorry. So both are gorgeous, mountainous, grassy places in Wyoming. They're just a few miles away from each other, but they have separate entrance fees unless you get like one big pass that covers both. So essentially Yellowstone is Disneyland and Grand Teton is California Adventure. Okay. Anyway, in the late 1980s when Ken started, there were not many bison there.

[Allie Ward]

And the previous archaeologists that worked there always minimized the presence of bison in there. I just started looking at the literature. And the more I looked at the literature, every time there were faunal remains, bones preserved at archaeological sites, nine out of 10 times they were bison bones. It's like, well, how can you minimize bison in the archaeological record when all the bones that you're finding are bison bones? So that just got me going. I moved up and started working in Yellowstone national park and got more interested in bison and this wonderful mammal that was incredible. Part of our ecosystem shaped A large part of North American ecosystem. And why we don't know a lot about it. Most of what we know about it is from small herds, anecdotal historical records. So I really wanted to try and understand at least the Yellowstone bison a little bit more detail.

[Interviewer/Host]

How old were those kill sites? And what exactly is a kill site?

[Allie Ward]

So a kill site, it can vary in a lot of different ways. The traditional ones that we always think of for Great Plains are running bison over a cliff, hundreds of bison over a cliff, and then dispatching them at the bottom of the cliff.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is kind of a stupid question, but when you say a kill site, let's say they were over a cliff. Is that for to then use that meat and fur, or was that like a hunting technique?

[Allie Ward]

Yes, it was a hunting technique. Yeah. So that was the best, the easiest, I guess, and most economically efficient way of getting a lot of bison to get you into the winter. So typically during the fall that these events happen, bison are coming into the fall and the winter, so they're really fat. And fat's good. Not like today, but fat was good back then. Everybody, all hunter gatherers, everybody wanted fat. So you hunted bison in the fall. They're at their prime nutritionally. Their fur is that prime. So you get some really nice skins for making clothing and teepees and all kinds of stuff. So, yeah, that was an efficient way of doing it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Going back into some history, much, much more recent. Tell me a little bit about how you started to love bison or now you mentioned that you have a New Jersey accent.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so now you grew up in New Jersey, but what brought you out to Yellowstone and the Natural Park Service? At what point did you want to start working in nature?

[Allie Ward]

Well, I've always wanted to work in nature. I grew up on the Jersey shore, and I actually started out as wanting to be a marine biologist. So my undergraduate work was as a biologist, like Jacques Cousteau, because I used to scuba dive and hang out on the beach. And I swear, when I was 17, I would never live more than a half mile from the ocean.

[Interviewer/Host]

And here we are in Utah.

[Allie Ward]

And here we are in Utah. So be careful about those things that you say put out there in nature to the gods.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay? No, you're not losing your mind. Last week's guest, futurologist Rose Evleth, also wanted to follow in the flipper steps of Jacques Cousteau before finding her own path. Weird. Cute, right?

[Allie Ward]

And anyway, so I went there. I got a little bit frustrated with the biology program there. It was Largely geared towards premed students and. But then I started taking anthropology courses. It was a small program. Really good professors treated you like a human being and not just a number. And I learned that I could do biology within as an archaeologist.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh. So Ken graduated from the University of Florida and did grad school in Tennessee and then got his PhD from the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, studying the biogeography of prehistoric bison isotopes. So how did this Jersey dude wind up so far from the sea?

[Allie Ward]

I wanted to get out of town, essentially, and see something different. And as a fluke, I just applied for a job with the National Park Service and got hired by the Midwest Archaeological Center. And the first job was to go and work in Grand Teton National Park. So it's just those weird things that happen in life and you just gotta kind of go, okay, let's go, let's go. So, yeah, it wasn't a plan, but.

[Interviewer/Host]

It seems like it served you well.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm very glad that it all happened. I remember when I got hired and drove out, I had this. Of course, I had a nice little VW bug that I drove all the way out to Grand Teton from Tennessee. And when I got there, my boss told me, it's like you were the last person we picked.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ouch.

[Allie Ward]

I said, okay, well. And mostly because I didn't have any experience out there. And I. But it was a slam. And I was like, okay, take that as a challenge.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. Do you live up to it, then?

[Allie Ward]

I don't know. I'm still trying. It's an ongoing process.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there something about bison themselves that intrigued you? I feel like, as an American, I think there's so much lore and history and maybe even a dark history to them as well. Is that something that kind of grabbed you as an archaeologist?

[Allie Ward]

It grabbed me as an archaeologist because in the mountains, they were never seen as being an important part of the subsistence economy of Native American groups. And that was intriguing to me. But also, I think you're right. Yeah. There's an iconic history to bison. It is a deep, dark history, but it's also a very exciting, positive history because we brought them back from extinction. And it was the efforts by a small group of people that said, this is crazy. We go from 30 million down to 19 or 100 or whatever the number was at the turn of the last century. I think that's a big part of it. Is that just that story, that resurrection story is there too. But they're cool animals. You just go out and they're just they're just cool to sit and watch.

[Interviewer/Host]

And they're majestic.

[Allie Ward]

They are majestic, yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, Ken's colleague, Dr. Dan McNulty, no relation to squid expert Sarah McAnulty, got his bachelor's in environmental studies at the University of Colorado and got a master's in wildlife conservation and a PhD in ecology, evolution, and behavior from the University of Minnesota. So how did he get lured into the bison life? And now, are you from Utah?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

No, I born in Illinois, grew up in California, went to school in Colorado.

[Interviewer/Host]

So one might say you've been roaming around as well.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I have been a bit nomadic, although not lately.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so you are a bisonologist. You study bison as part of your job, Whether you would call yourself that or not?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I would say that bisonology is part of my program, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Host]

How long have you been into science and fieldwork and animals? What was it that drew you to this?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Well, I lived in Hong Kong for three years when I was in junior high, and so that was obviously very urban environment. And when I got back to California, I was in the eighth or seventh grade, and we lived on the edge of big open space, lots of live oaks and hills. It kind of just sucked me in.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sucked me right in.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Soon after we got back, and I've been kind of at it since then. And actually, even before that, I grew up riding horses with my dad in that country and just got really into it once I got back from that little stay in Hong Kong. And just a lot of time spent camping, hiking.

[Interviewer/Host]

Dan said growing up, he always loved animals and being out in nature, observing.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Them, but I never really thought I'd actually make a career of it. I was an undergraduate at Boulder, Colorado, and then went up to Yellowstone. And actually, that was kind of when I was sort of the aha moment that, yeah, you know, I think I can make science into a career, was when I arrived in yellowstone, this was 95, and I just got to see wildlife biologists in action. You know, the folks that I worked at up there had made it their career. I'd met other people that had been at it for a very long time. Sort of dawned on me that, wow, if you work hard and focus, it's possible to make this a career. So that's kind of where I really sort of got started.

[Interviewer/Host]

And now, how did you end up in the bison arena, sort of following wolves?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Okay, yeah, the wolves brought me to.

[Interviewer/Host]

The bison, so the wolves brought him to the buffalo. But you know what? Before we go much further, let's clear this up. Buffalo or bison so buffalo etymologically comes from the word for an African antelope and then expanded to mean a wild European ox. And then French fur trappers saw bison and called them Booth, meaning oxen or beefs. So they were like buffalo. But currently, is there a difference? When referring to the woolly hook horned beautiful beast of the North American plains, I called my cousin Boyd and his longtime love and wife Lila up in Browning, Montana, which is a small town of just a few thousand people. And with the Blackfeet reservation, over 90% of the town are indigenous folks. Lila is a member of the Blackfeet tribe, and I've been lucky to learn about her heritage and their family's tribal involvement over the years. And about buffalo, bison. You. You don't mind if I have buffalo questions? No, we absolutely do not. I'm so excited to talk to you about this, because it's like, oh, I know people who actually get to see buffalo and bison every day. This is so exciting. Okay, my first question is the difference between a buffalo and a bison. Stupid question. There is none. No such thing as the difference. No difference. Yeah. I mean, it's. No. Just whatever. Okay, so it's either or. Yeah, yeah. Potato, potah, tomato, tomato. Yeah, that's kind of what it is. And then how long have you had buffalo? 20 years. 20 years? Yeah. Boyd and Lila started with just six a few decades ago. What made you go get the buffalo? Just thought we'd try that. Just give it a shot. Yeah. You know, you have to take those chances. Once again, the life lesson is get a buffalo. Or six. Cut bangs, text your crush, because we're all gonna die. So they took a chance. They now have 52 bison. Also, I felt very stupid because I've read and heard both Blackfeet or Blackfoot, and the name comes from the dark souls of these bison hunters. Moccasins. And I didn't want to say it wrong, so I asked a very smart person a stupid question, and correct me. Is it. Is it Blackfoot? Indian. Blackfoot confederacy, Blackfeet nation. I want to make sure I say that. Okay. All right. There is a Blackfoot Confederacy, which is our Blackfeet tribe, the Blood tribe in Canada, and the Blackfoot tribe in Canada and the Sarci tribe in one other tribe, but I don't remember what it is. They're all connected. That's the Blackfoot Confederacy. Okay. But we are actually the Blackfeet tribe in Montana, and we're the only ones on this side of the line. And traditionally and historically, what has The Blackfeet relation to bison and buffalo been like historically, that's what they lived on. They followed the buffalo. And then when, and then when they became big things back east, like when their hides became really valuable back east for hats and overseas, then everybody went to killing buffalo. And that's basically how the buffalo almost died completely out. Before we talk about the brutal decline, the lumbering comeback and their hopeful future, let's get some history down with archaeologist Ken. And going backwards a little bit. What is a buffalo? What is a bison? What is the difference? What is this animal? What is a bison?

[Allie Ward]

I think the bison and buffalo, they're interchangeable terms. I think I'm. But I'm sure some taxonomists will write you an email and say he doesn't know what he's talking about, but I refer to him as bison. Okay, so North American bison. The species is bison. Bison, I read that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Isn't it bison? Bison. Bison.

[Allie Ward]

It can be. Bison. Bison, Bison, yes. And the taxonomy of bison is still being debated.

[Interviewer/Host]

Really?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

What are they thinking the bison derived from? What taxonomy is being debated and where do they think this species came from?

[Allie Ward]

Well, I think what's being debated is the Holocene or the last 10, 12,000 years of bison history. So during the Pleistocene, we had a species of bison called Bison antiquus. Some people might say Bison Bison antiquus, but that was probably about a third larger than the modern bison are. The herd sizes probably weren't as big. Their behavior might have been somewhat different than bison are today. But over probably once the glaciers retreated between about 10 and 7 to 5, 6,000 years ago, they went through this diminution. So they became smaller in size and became what we know as the modern bison. Bison. We think a lot of that might have to do with just changes in the environment. The climate was drying out somewhat, the vegetation was changing, so it wasn't quite as nutritious. There's a lot of theories that are being pushed around out there.

[Interviewer/Host]

So bison, bison, bison, plains of buffalo. But there's another subspecies of North American bison and it's Bison Bison thabisci, I think, which were nearly extinct in the early 1900s until this small group of about 200 were discovered in this remote reach of Alberta, Canada. And Boyd and Lye told me that they're even bigger. They like 2,800 pounds as opposed to the smaller 2,000 pound plains bison. So these wood bison are kind of like our Canadian neighbors. They're beautifully husky and if you act like a hosier and get too Close. A wood bison might gore ya, but they'll probably say sorier.

[Allie Ward]

And then there was also some argument that the woods bison extended down and was present in the Rocky Mountains. And that was different than the plains bison, some people think, have argued that they looked a little bit differently. Their skull structure was a little bit different. They tended to maybe have longer legs, longer humps, and that was an adaptation to deeper snows trying to forage in the wintertime.

[Interviewer/Host]

Going back to bison history, where did they evolve from? What species did they evolve from? When did they get to North America and how many were there? Give me a brief timeline.

[Allie Ward]

A brief timeline. So bison originated in Eurasia, migrated to North America during periods of interglacial. They've been here in north america Probably somewhere 20 million years ago in different forms.

[Interviewer/Host]

20 million years? 20 million years. And in a period of 20 to 30 years, they were nearly extinguished from the continent and rendered extinct.

[Allie Ward]

One of the coolest bison species that was around is called Bison Latifrons. And I was here during the Pleistocene, probably died out 12, 15,000 years ago, but had huge, huge, huge horns like 10ft long.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh my God.

[Allie Ward]

Spread of horns. Yeah, just a monster.

[Interviewer/Host]

She's a base mate.

[Allie Ward]

And then that became extinct. And then we had, you know, Bison Antiquus, which was probably a contemporary of Latifron's, and then, you know, and then, and then modern bison. So that's a really dirty history of bison. But, but yeah, Bison Latifrons are really cool too.

[Interviewer/Host]

So I just looked up bison ladder fronds and boy, howdy bejesus. These horns, oh God, they look like if a buffalo made a male Halloween costume out of like half a Hula Hoop. Oh my God. These gore. Jess, get it? Megafauna. Became extinct between 20 and 30,000 years ago. But they're Luke. Ooh. And how far back does your research go when it comes to the history of bison in, say, North America?

[Allie Ward]

Well, the history of bison in my research is kind of dependent on preservation. We've worked on older sites, up to 10,000 year old sites, but I haven't been lucky enough to find bison that old in the archaeological record. And a big part of that, I think, is just preservation issues. Yellowstone and the mountains in general are just not a great place for preservation. There's lots of soil. Soils tend to be acidic. They get turned over a lot. Here's a good term. Bioturbation. Bioturbation. So it's trees that are turning up the soils. Animals that live and burrow in the ground are Turning up the soils. So you have both chemical and mechanical breaking down of these bones. So they just don't preserve very well.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's say that we're looking at a bison. Can you explain to me any of the pieces? Parts of the bison? I know that there are horns, There is a hump of some sort. How big is a bison? If I say just beamed down to earth from an outer planet, I'm a Martian and I'm like, what is this big, furry creature?

[Allie Ward]

So I'm about 5 foot 6. On a good day, I think a good bull, we would be looking at each other straight. Straight on. I mean, I'd probably be looking at his forehead. Okay, so pretty good size, up to 1200 pounds. A good sized male.

[Interviewer/Host]

What about females?

[Allie Ward]

Smaller females? A little bit smaller. Okay, yeah, probably £800. The hump is. So they have these really big spinal processes that come off of the thoracic vertebrae. And the hump is the fat and the skin that goes over that. It stores a lot of its fat and energy in that hump. That's the part that hunter gatherers really like, because that's where all your nutrition comes from. What's pretty cool, they've got beards.

[Interviewer/Host]

I have noticed that. Is that a fashion thing or is that.

[Allie Ward]

I don't know. They've been hipsters for a long, long time. They're not hipsters.

[Interviewer/Host]

Side note, bison beards, kind of like a scarf on an airplane, serve to insulate these critters in the snow. And get this. I just found out that their hairier shoulder region. It's a cape. So more evidence that these creatures are not only strong and powerful, but also just quietly flamboyant. So let's get back to Dan, who describes a situation similar to the wood bison discovery in Canada. So in the late 1800s, in Yellowstone's Pelican Valley, something cool happened.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Pelican Valley, historically significant in the story of bison generally in the United States, because it was there that the last wild bison survived Back in the very early 20th century, in 1906, 1912, there were only a couple dozen bison left. Those are the last wild bison, and they were hiding out in Pelican Valley. And the reason why they were hiding out back there, well, there weren't people. But also because it was geothermally active. We all know about the geysers and old Faithful and all that. Well, there's a lot of other warm ground that melts the snow off in the wintertime. And so these little pockets of warm ground that the bison were using as refuge in the wintertime.

[Interviewer/Host]

For more on the supervolcano that is Yellowstone park, please see episode one Volcanology with Jess Phoenix. But yes, anyway, most of today's American bison are descended from those Pelican Valley survivors. Tell me a little bit about the bison population and where it has been in the last, say, 150 years. What's happened to the bison population?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Well, it's like the sea. It's sort of receded and got really small. The tide went out with bison. And like I said earlier, they found refuge in places like Pelican Valley in the interior of Yellowstone, one of the most remote areas in the lower 48 United States, especially back then, the early part of the 20th century. And remarkably since then, we have more bison now in Yellowstone national park than at any time since Europeans showed up. Granted it's not 30 million, but it is 5,000 or so is about where we're at now. That's a massive turnaround. That's a massive cultural shift because you have to understand that bison were weaponized in a lot of ways. They were being eliminated to basically drive Indians onto reservations. It was part of the colonization of the western hemisphere. Western North America was taking out the bison. And so to bring those bison back is to sort of challenge some of those ideas, those sort of colonial attitudes that also holds with the wolf as well. And so, yeah, these numbers aren't huge, but they're significant nonetheless. And I think that that's an important sort of cultural process as well as it is a process of sort of conservation and a biological process.

[Interviewer/Host]

I asked Ken, the geobiologist archaeologist, if bison are on the move a lot, like equally enigmatic hardcore Dave Matthews fans. And now what's their yearly life cycle like? Did they tend to migrate in certain times of the year? Do they go from the north to the south? Do they look for what? Where are they moving around?

[Allie Ward]

I think, well, the males, they migrate around a lot. They seem to have a pretty big range. And the females, they tend to stay in cow calf groups for most of the year. And a lot of the younger males probably stay with the herds, those cow calf groups for a couple years. And the fall is when you have the rut, because I'm in a of lot. So all the males come back from the high country and beat on each other for selection of females. The rut is pretty exciting to watch. They're pushing around each other and snorting and trying to see who's going to be the biggest, baddest one out there. That gets all the cows.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is that how that works? Is there an alpha bison?

[Allie Ward]

There's usually several alpha bison that's. Yeah. That have access to the females, the cows.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is that common in an ungulate group or.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, I think so. Elk are pretty interesting. They gather up what's known as a harem.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, hey.

[Allie Ward]

So 10, 12 cows get elk. Cows get.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow.

[Allie Ward]

Get one guy.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow. So it's like sister wives. A little. A little. I mean, I guess we are in Utah. You know, a quick aside before you tell me that I'm making generalizations. I'm just honestly sharing data. I looked it up, and there are an estimated 30,000 folks in polygamous marriages in Utah, which is six times the population of wild bison in America. Now, P.S. i don't know or really care how they counted the polygamous people. It's none of my business. But what about the bison? I asked Dan if they have microchips in them or is there like a census taker for buffalo? Someone with snowshoes and a clipboard. Just knock, knock, knocking on bison's doors. Is there an exact number? Is there a spreadsheet that has them all kind of cataloged? Are they tagged? How do you keep track?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Counting with aircraft?

[Interviewer/Host]

Really? How does that work?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

They just get into a small. They being park service biologists, will get into a small fixed wing aircraft, a Super Cub. They will fly certain routes through the park where bison are known to range, and they just count them up. So it's a total count. It's a census. And they do that at least once a year. Sometimes they do it multiple times.

[Interviewer/Host]

And do they just film it and then later look at the footage?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

No, they'll count them as they go. As they go, you lose track. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

That seems so easy to lose track.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

But they're so big, they're actually easy to count, I think, compared to, say, like, elk.

[Interviewer/Host]

Really? Well, yeah.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Bison are darker, elk are lighter.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

And the bison tend to be more out in the open. Some of the elk will be in the trees.

[Interviewer/Host]

So counting sheep is out. Counting bison's where it's at? I guess.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I think so, yeah. If I had to choose, I would count bison. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think that bison biologists dream of bison? Do you dream of bison?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Sometimes.

[Interviewer/Host]

What kind of bison dreams do you have?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I can't remember of any off the top of my head, but I definitely have had dreams, especially when I'm in the field.

[Interviewer/Host]

Real quick, what does it mean if you dream of buffalo? Well, According to Sleep Culture.com, which likely employs kind hearted interns to make up omens for like every noun in the dictionary, Seeing a buffalo in a dream is a symbol of survival and abundance. It means that you should pay attention to the path you're following in your life. Sure. Also, ward family side note. So Boyd and Lila and my cousins Crystal and James and Jamie bring a huge traditional tipi to our reunions. And the first year I ever got to sleep in it, they told me to pay attention to my dreams because in a teepee they could have certain significance. And in the morning I recalled I had a dream about seeing Don Johnson from Miami Vice at Costco. It was such a bummer. So maybe it just doesn't work on silly white ladies.

[Allie Ward]

I think being in Yellowstone and seeing how tourists think that they are like cows and can go up to them and take their picture, and I think that's a big myth, is that somehow Yellowstone is this petting zoo out there and these are big wild animals and they are fairly tolerant, I think of people, they're a lot more tolerant than I would be if I was them. And somebody was coming up and snapping pictures. So I think that's kind of an interesting misconception about wild animals and especially wild animals in Yellowstone. The myths about bison, I think maybe a big thing for people to understand is how pervasive they were on the landscape 150 years ago. Especially on the Great Plains. If you live in California or New York, you probably didn't see a lot of bison. But out on the Great Plains they were. They're amazingly prevalent part of the ecosystem. And to have them disappear in such a short period of time, I think that's really hard for people to understand. It's hard for me to understand how you can go from 30 million bison if you want to use that number. There's lots of different estimates on how many bison were out on the Great Plains. And then within 20, 30 year period, they're gone. And how we can do that and the technology at that time, it wasn't like we were out there spraying them with guns, gunships, these people with single shot rifles going out and they completely caused the collapse of amazing population animals.

[Interviewer/Host]

How did that happen over 20 or 30 years?

[Allie Ward]

Well, I think that's hard to understand, but I think a big part of it was just the trade in bison robes. And there was this great demand in the 1860s and 70s for bison robes. And people were going out there, they were killing them and I think they were disrupting herds. They were just taking the hides. It wasn't like they were using them for food or anything. And I think that had a great disruption of the breeding process and the populations just crashed. I think that's a pretty indisputable thesis about how it all happened. I think it's difficult to imagine, but I think once you start disrupting those herds, because they were easy to kill and hunters got pretty close to them and could shoot them, and the bison didn't necessarily scatter very quickly, and. And then once you start disrupting those herd structures and scattering bulls and cows, I think it's easy for the system to crash. They weren't a big animal to flee. They really didn't have any predators. Humans are probably bison's biggest predators, and I think that's. Humans were the only predator. So they were the biggest thing out there. They didn't need to fear anything. And they were big enough herds that they could. They could fend off wolves. Their other biggest predator. They didn't need to flee. They're not like antelope. Antelope. As soon as they see something, you can't get within 100 yards of an antelope and it's gone. Yeah, bison, they were the biggest things out there, so they didn't have to flee.

[Interviewer/Host]

And now do you work also with indigenous groups and anthropologists and other archaeologists to learn more about the relation between hunter gatherers in what's now North America and a prominent food source, which is bison. Does that figure in a lot to your work?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, most of the work that we do is either on public lands or funded by public dollars. And we do consult with tribes in Yellowstone. Typically, we consult with the Shoshone Bannock on the Fort Hall Reservation and also the Eastern Shoshone that are over on the Wind River Reservation. And they kept apprised of our work and are certainly able to come and visit and comment on it. And we try and do more and more of that consultation process. When I was working up in Yellowstone, I worked a lot with an elder who since passed away, Haman Wise. And he gave us a lot of information about the Shoshone and their life ways. So that was a pretty interesting and a nice relationship.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ken told me that he's been helping out, using his archaeological techniques to understand the events and the landscape of the 1863 Bear River Massacre that killed possibly hundreds of members of the Shoshone tribe in a place that's now south Idaho, near a town called Preston. And there's a small memorial there now. But the tribe is trying to raise funds for an interpretive center to memorialize what had happened on that site. Does that ever get emotional for you?

[Allie Ward]

Working at the Bear River Massacre site is incredibly emotional. Just because it was a horrible event in no way, shape or form could ever be justified. And seeing people that are two generations removed from the survivors of that and them telling their story, yeah, it's hard not to be emotional. You wouldn't be a human if you're not. So, yeah, that does get to be pretty emotional. My wife Molly and I also worked on the Sand Creek Massacre site and we're sitting with a lot of descendants of the Sand Creek Massacre and talking with them and seeing how close that is to them still. I mean, they get very emotional and, you know, it's not my history.

[Interviewer/Host]

And how do Indigenous communities keep that history alive? The Intertribal Buffalo Council, ITBC is this collection of 69 tribes from 19 different states. And they work on programs to return buffalo to tribal lands. But hyper locally in their own community. Boyd and Lila themselves donated one of their own prized buffalo. I know that in terms of giving back to the community, like you, you guys donated a buffalo a year or so ago to one of the Browning schools to kind of learn how the buffalo is used in traditional food and other things. What was that like? What prompted that?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Oh, it was an Indian studies class at high school.

[Allie Ward]

They wanted to get a hands on.

[Interviewer/Host]

Experience and show everybody what how they originally butchered buffalo, what all the parts they took. Also you may be too embarrassed to ask, is it Indian or Native American? And there are several opinions on words like Indian versus Indigenous versus Native versus First nations. And different people have different preferences depending on the era and the region. This deserves its own whole episode and that is in the works. So if you are Native, thank you for any emotional labor that you have spent educating others. And I highly recommend podcasts like all my relations so good and following indigenous folks from all over the world on social media. We all have so much listening and so much learning to do. And that's okay. Learning is exciting. Now back to Dan. I asked about the heritage of the bison and the introduced cattle. What's happening there? What is a wild bison versus what is a bison that has now domesticated bovine DNA? And do people care what. But where are we at with that?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I was at a meeting in Bozeman, Montana a few years ago, National Academy of Sciences was doing a review on Brucellosis and they had the chair of the Intertribal Bison Cooperative give a talk and one of the things he said that struck me was that from his point of view, it doesn't really make much of a difference if this bison has got that. If it's 80% bison and 20% hereford or 5%, it's a bison. From his point of view, this is a bison. I think he was speaking, too, from a cultural point of view, because there's a lot of mixing among human populations, and Native Americans have to deal with this in terms of blood quantum to prove that they belong to a certain tribe and a certain reservation and so forth. And there's a lot of controversy around that. And he was sort of referring to that in the context of what percent of bison do you need in order to be a bison? And I think he was saying, you know what? That's kind of nonsense.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

It's all a bunch of hogwash. What is a bison is in some ways, in the eye of the beholder, I think. And I think that's how I would answer that question.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so what about raising bison? I've looked it up, and it turns out that bison babies are cute to the point that it is enraging. They are like shaggy Muppets. It's infuriating. My heart hurts. I want to hug them. Any idea where we're at in terms of bison as a livestock commodity? Like, where is that industry going?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Ask Ted Turner. That's what he does. Yeah. You can go to Ted's Grill and order yourself up a bison steak. I mean, he's. He's. And this is. This is not a secret. He. That's part of what he's been doing for a number of years. He's been growing bison on a number of his properties and using that bison and selling it in his restaurants. Ted's Grill, I think, is what it's called.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you eat bison?

[Allie Ward]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. You're not like, oh, sorry, no, no.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Bison are super tasty.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, bison. But are raising them better for the planet than cows? Some ecologists argue yes, because their poops and their hooves have evolved along with the plains. And unlike namby pamby cows, bison typically don't need winter shelter, which saves on energy costs. And bison meat also tends to be leaner meat. Boyd and Lila supply a few local restaurants and sell steaks to private buyers, but said not all bison burgers are created equal. And some commercial ones you might find in chain restaurants might be made from older animals and might be higher in fat. I asked how they were in general to raise, though. How is it different from raising cows? They're a lot smarter. Really? Yeah. They're Independent. They're wildlife. Do they kind of communicate with each other more than cows do? Are they more social or less social? What do they eat? Way more social. Yeah, they run around on. They run around in one little pack. What kind of noises do buffalo make? Grunts.

[Allie Ward]

They grunt?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Kind of like sheep, kind of like pigs. Oh, yeah, kind of like pigs. That's kind of what they sound like. Ps thank you, YouTuber Jim Doss, who posted this nine second video of a male bison sticking his tongue out like it was a fraternity burping contest and just letting the grunts rip. When do they have occasion to grunt? Do they do when they're happy or when they're pissed off or what?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

When they're communicating with each other and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Mostly when they're in a little bunch there?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yeah, they talk to each other that way.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do they have any favorite treats? Are they like, yes, it's apple season, or is it just like, they eat grass and that's it? They love crab apples. Crab apples, absolutely love them. Do they grunt to each other like, yo, come and get these, man?

[Allie Ward]

I. I don't know.

[Interviewer/Host]

Buffalo going batshit on crabapples is such a joy to imagine. I would like to be their friends, and I asked Dan if bison are social mostly because I would like to know if they will be my friends.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

So they're extremely social. Bison are. They aggregate together and they'll help each other. They're not like elk, which sort of flee in every direction and serve every man for himself. Generally. Bison are very cooperative in how they defend themselves, but when there's deep snow, that defense breaks down and it becomes every man for himself or a woman.

[Interviewer/Host]

Side note, of course. Or non binary bison. I'm sure they're out there. I was recently reading American Indian Thought, which is an Ann Waters anthology of Native writers, and I came across this passage by Alice Kehoe, which happens to relate to the Blackfoot confederacy. Alice writes, what really matters to a Blackfoot is autonomy. If a person competently engages in work or behavior ordinarily the domain of people of the other sex or another species, onlookers assume the person has been blessed. Anyway, back to bison. We need more, I think, right? Let's ask an expert. And where are we going in the future in terms of bison conservation and growing the numbers? What do you see kind of coming up around the bend?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Well, in my experience in the Greater Yellowstone, I would say we're running up against limits. Just in the 20, 25 years that I've been working up there, areas that used to be rangeland, have houses on them now. So it isn't just an issue of livestock grazing on the borders of the park. It's pavement, it's houses, it's fences, it's people, swing sets, that kind of stuff. It's encroaching and. And there doesn't really seem to be any end of that. And so bison, and I think wildlife in particular are increasingly hemmed in in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem. On the other hand, you've got initiatives like out in eastern Montana, the American Prairie foundation, where they're cobbling together private lands, buying up lands from willing sellers. These lands are adjacent to public lands and they're trying to recreate the kind of short grass prairie that we had at the time of European conquest, basically out there. So taking corn fields and alfalfa fields and converting those back into prairie, which is not an easy thing to do, by the way. I also think a big part of the future of bison is on Native American reservations. So increasingly you see tribes building up their herds on their lands under their management. And I think that's a big part of the bison story going forward as well.

[Interviewer/Host]

Boyd and Lila echo that is there anything like population wise of the plains buffalo that y' all would like to see happen? As people who have land and have livestock, would you like to see the population rise again to. Closer to what it used to be? Like, how do you guys feel about, like, how many buffaloes should there be on the plains? Not 100 million. They would overrun Nebraska and Kansas, Missouri, and there wouldn't be any cornfields, there wouldn't be any wheat fields. You know, they have a place, but it's proportionately okay. I know futurology was last week, but I asked Dan about what might be in store for our buffalo friends. What is the aim? What's the goal in terms of numbers of bison? What can the continent support, given what we've maybe done to the land in terms of agriculture?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Well, it's completely in our hands. Our hands being sort of American society. If we want more bison, we can have more bison. There are ways of doing that. Likewise with other wildlife. The question is whether or not we're willing to make the choices and the trade offs in order to do that. So, for example, in northern Yellowstone, very few bison are permitted outside the park because they interfere with agriculture. Not only just conflicts in terms of raiding hay fields and busting down fences, but they also carry diseases. Both elk and bison carry brucellosis.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, side note, brucellosis is caused by bacteria and in humans it's most commonly picked up by eating unpasteurized milk or soft squishy cheeses, like a goat cheese. But who is Bruce and why did someone name a disease after him? Well, it turns out it's named after David Bruce, an Australian born microbiologist who worked on investigating the disease right around the time, I guess, folks were running around North America killing all the bison. Also, David Bruce did not have brucellosis, but he did perish and fall from life's supple grasp just four days after his wife at her memorial service. He died at her memorial service, which is either really sweet or incredibly obnoxious. But I hope to heaven that the funeral director just gave that poor family an impromptu bogo. Buy one, get one discount. Okay, back to brucellosis.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

And if a domestic cow contracts this disease, they're at risk of spontaneous abortion. There's a massive economic cost to having livestock infected with bison because it means that you can't move your livestock out of state, meaning that you can't sell them across the state lines because other states don't want to get infected with brucellosis. And so it's a major economic issue to having these species that carry that disease to range far and wide. And so all these decisions about wildlife management, these are all social decisions. These aren't necessarily biological processes exclusively. They're very much social and cultural processes. And a lot of these decisions get made in public meetings in various different situations with different agencies, state, local, federal. And so when you say, well, how many bison could we have? Well, it really sort of depends on sort of the social, economic carrying capacity. How much are people willing to tolerate. We could have bison in Cache Valley if all the farmers that are grazing cows or growing corn decided they wanted to raise bison. I mean, that's possible. You have private landowners in the plains states, elsewhere in the Rockies that are doing just that. They are raising bison for profit. They're trying to make money off of it. So there is a model for doing that. But are those livestock? Are they wild bison? And those are social decisions. And so those need to be. Those are the kinds of conversations we need to have, knowing that up front that these are sort of cultural discussions that we're having socioeconomic discussions and not so much biology. So what we really need to be talking to is a sociologist and an economist. Right, and a psychologist too, probably.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sociologists. I have not done an episode on you yet, but I will. And economists, I am so sorry, but you are not econologists. Hey, all those in favor of some Spinoff shows, maybe analogies, network. You could tweet at me. Okay, but first, let's bust some more myths. What about any myths or any flimflam that you would debunk that you see people having a.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

There's so much flim.

[Interviewer/Host]

Flam. I know. Debunk it.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

You got the stage here about bison specifically. Well, yeah, I would just sort of echo Ken's point that they're not farm animals. And so if you're going to Yellowstone in the summer to see bison and don't underestimate how quick they can be to kick you, pounce on you, stomp on you, hurt you, I will cut you. Keep your distance. Other myths about bison. Here's a big myth, and that is that they are a major source of brucellosis. That's a massive myth that needs to be debunked, that has direct bearing on their conservation outlook and how people perceive them, how the livestock industry perceives them. To the best of my knowledge, there has not been any instance of bison infecting livestock, cows outside of Yellowstone. And then all those transmissions have involved elk that have been infected with brucellosis. So bison get a bad rap. So there's still a lot of, I would say, sort of bias culturally against bison in the livestock community. Bison are looked at as competitors and threats.

[Interviewer/Host]

Boyd and Lila echoed that, and they said that it's a big limiting factor in growing bison numbers via ranching. They're never going to populate, like beef, because there's too many myths out there. For one thing is brucellosis is a.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Big scare, and it has nothing to do with the meat.

[Interviewer/Host]

But, like, even people here on this reservation don't eat buffalo because they're afraid of this brucellosis stuff. Really? Really. So that's a big. That's some flim flam right there. Yeah, it really is. And our food program has buffalo meat. They have buffalo meat that they ration out, but they have trouble getting people to take it. Really? That's kind of. That's surprising, given that buffalo is such a part of Blackfeet history. Is it ever weird to you that it's difficult to get over the myths? You know, yeah, it is. I mean, because they. They've spread these rumors.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

I don't, you know, I don't know.

[Interviewer/Host]

For how many, a hundred years, whatever.

[Allie Ward]

You know, and so it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's. It's kind of frustrating that these bernaties won't even really try. Try it. And is there. Is there anything. Any kind of causes or any Charities that are helping bison or helping people maybe relate to bison or helping like Boyd, how you guys donated a buffalo to a school. Anything like that that is doing good stuff that you guys would want to shout out or have like a donation go to at all. Yeah, you know, the. They do have several buffalo coalitions. One in North Dakota and one in South Dakota.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

And then one several Indian tribes are.

[Interviewer/Host]

All in put buffalo in different places when. If. If somebody in New Mexico wants buffalo, they can get buffalo from the tribal coalition. So, I mean, there's lots of opportunities in buffalo. Okay, quick aside. I found one. And this week's donation goes to the intertribal Buffalo Council, whose mission is to restore bison on tribal lands for cultural and spiritual enhancement and preservation. So the ITBC coordinates education and training programs and the transfer of surplus buffalo from national parks to tribal lands and works with their partners including National Bison association, the National Park Service, the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, the Wildlife Conservation Society, and more. So you can find out more about [e-mail] and that donation was made possible by sponsors of the show, so you may hear about them now. Oh, hey.

[Allie Ward]

Welcome to gift wrapping. Whoa.

[Interviewer/Host]

Zoe Saldana. Hey, can you wrap these, please?

[Allie Ward]

Wow. IPhone 17s.

[Interviewer/Host]

You splurged at T Mobile. You can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.

[Allie Ward]

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Allie Ward]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

[Interviewer/Host]

No @t mobile. There's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

[Allie Ward]

Incredible.

[Interviewer/Host]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa. Forget that. Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Allie Ward]

Sounds like my family drama.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, I got it. I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with. Hey, where are you going?

[Allie Ward]

To T mobile.

[Interviewer/Host]

The holidays are better.

[Allie Ward]

AT T Mobile get four iPhone 17s on us. No trade in needed when you switch. Plus four lines for just 25 bucks a line with 24 monthly bill credits and four eligible board inside essentials for well qualified customers but don't pay plus taxes, fees and 35 device connection charge credit sending balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel contact us. Finance a grip in 256 gigabytes.

[Interviewer/Host]

$830 required.

[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

We know everyone needs a good night's sleep, so skip the holiday stress and.

[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

You know, the ones that fit you just right.

[Interviewer/Host]

The ones that simply make you feel good. Because you don't just wear jeans, you live in them. Find great jeans starting at $29.90 in stores [e-mail] okay, so Ken, if you'll remember, gave us the history of bison and we haven't heard from him in a bit, so let's ask him stuff. Can I ask you some questions from listeners? Oh, sure, yeah. They might be stupid. You okay with that? Yep. We may have gone over a little bit of this too, but John Wurster wants to know how many bison were around during their peak population period. Do you think 30 million?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think 30 million is a good. A good number.

[Interviewer/Host]

And how long ago was that?

[Allie Ward]

1860S. They were probably at their peak. 1850s, 1860s, 30.

[Interviewer/Host]

Me and Dingman says, for a very long time I thought the American bison was extinct, that the good old boys back in the railroad days had hunted them to extinction. Fast forward to me being today years old and I still don't know what the story is. So they are not extinct. This is the same species from the 1800s. It's not a hybrid species or a, let's see, a bunch of people. I'm going to read their names as fast as I can. Anna Thompson, Alison Turrey, Lacy J. Shewer, Sydney Brown, Kelly Brockington, Jessica Bailey, Ashra Alhakhatar, all kind of want to know. And Sebastian Osterbank. I want to know how related are American bison and European bison? Like, what is their. Essentially their. Their closest. I know you're like, where are they in terms of the musk ox and. And water buffalo? I guess I didn't realize it was a European bison.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. So, yeah, bison. Let's Bison bonassus. Is the European bison a little bit smaller? Mostly. Seems like it was adapted to woodlands.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Allie Ward]

Probably not nearly as prevalent, but probably just as good to eat. They show up in the archaeological record. So they're all bovines. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. Okay. So side note, an ungulate is an animal that has hooves. And a bovine is a type of ungulate that includes cattle and African buffalo and yaks and water buffalo and bison. And the bison, like cows, are also ruminants, which means it chews its food and then kind of gags it back in its mouth and enjoys an encore meal of it. And I dare you to try that during the salad course at your next business dinner. Just do it. So gross. So, Baller, a bunch of people had questions about their fur. Stephanie Brotiz, Bonnie Fairbanks, Jen Athanas. They want to know, oh, Colette Ayers. They want to know why do they have so much hair and fur and what makes the hair so good at insulating them? And was that Helpful during colder periods.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, they have really thick, dense fur that they grow throughout the year. Plus they're fat. Yeah, they're well adapted to cold temperatures. It's gets 20, 30 below in Yellowstone and up into Canada and these animals are out there. What really, I think is really amazing to see is in the middle of winter they have snow on their backs and the snow is not melting because of the insulation. So they're not losing a lot of heat that way. So they're well insulated and well adapted to that really extreme environments. And they live in, in environments that go from minus 30 to over 100 degrees. So they're incredibly well adapted to North American extremes.

[Interviewer/Host]

And they can handle the 100 degree weather because again, the insulation, I think they.

[Allie Ward]

Well, they lose a lot of their fur. Look at the difference between a bison in the winter and a bison in the summer. They don't have a lot of fur left on them in the summertime.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, wow. It just sheds off and. Yeah, I wonder if there's any application for that. Just go around collecting bison fur.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, you can go up there. I look for.

[Interviewer/Host]

So all that fur protects them from the elements. And I asked Boyd and Lila about it, having seen it firsthand half the year where it can get to negative 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Also, just super side note, just this past week my dad, which is your grandpa, just told us a story about growing up in Montana, walking to school a mile and a half each way in snowy negative 70 degree weather. And pop, I am so sorry. I live in LA and I use a space heater when it dips below 70. I just do not possess the Montana vigor of the bison. How do they do in the snow? Like how cold does it get up in browning snow doesn't bother them at all. Yeah, no, cold. Cold doesn't bother them either.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

They're kind of the opposite of cows. Buffalo looks into the wind, into the.

[Interviewer/Host]

Storm, and a cow turns her back to the storm. Is that right? They really do. I mean, they're totally different in storms. And then what does their fur feel like? Because I've gotten a chance to sleep and obviously like feel your buffalo hide, because we have one. But how would you describe their hide and their fur? Kind of woolly. They have a nice fur, but they're of kind. They're more woolly than. It's not just hair.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

It's more of a cross between hair and wool.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you remember that story when we were up at the homestead and you guys had the teepee up and it Was me and my parents sleeping in it. So we're sleeping in the teepee, and the plane's winds are flapping the smoke flaps, and you can see the stars through the top of the teepee. And my parents are sleeping, and they're, you know, to keep warm, they're sleeping on one of your buffalo hides. And then we go to sleep, and about five minutes later, I just hear my dad say to my mom, oh, I thought I was petting your hair, but it was a buffalo, because my mom and I have such curly hair. My dad mistook the buffalo hide for my mom's curly hair. Well, if he ever gets lonesome now, you know what to give him a piece of buffalo. But every time I have to go flat iron my hair, I always think it's a lot like a buffalo. Man, if I want a haircut, though, I can't roll around like a bison until it just falls off. Well, it's pretty damaged, actually, so I probably could.

[Allie Ward]

And so they roll around and.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, and that's how they fall off is just wallowing. Yeah, that makes sense, because someone asked why they wallow, and I thought they just meant, like, in disposition, that they were kind of emo. So I thought they just seemed like an eeyore. And I was like, that's rude, but okay. So wallowing is an actual verb that relates to behavior that makes sense. Some people asked Melissa Houston and Mike Melchior asked about the roaming and why they roam. Also, Mike Melchior wanted to know, how do buffalo manage their cell phone bills with all the roaming charges? I don't think that's a serious question. But, yeah, why did they roam? Why were they on the move so much? And did the plains make that easy because it wasn't mountainous?

[Allie Ward]

Well, they're moving to find food, so they're constantly looking for good, nutritious grasses to eat. So that's why they're constantly on the move. Get in, loser.

[Interviewer/Host]

We're going shopping. So they've already eaten that patch, and now they just keep going.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, got it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kind of like really big, furry locusts, but cuter. Yeah, that makes some sense.

[Allie Ward]

Very big locusts.

[Interviewer/Host]

Huge locusts. Let's see.

[Allie Ward]

More cuddly than locusts, though, I think.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think they're more cuddly. I think they would probably beg to differ. They're like, no, we're not. Don't touch me. Okay, so, side note, the excellent science writer Ed Yong published a piece in the Atlantic a few months back titled what America lost when it lost the bison and it was about bison surfing a green wave of new shoots and grasses to eat. And researchers recently discovered that the bison's grazing changes the landscape. And Yang writes, in areas where bison Graze, plants contain 50 to 90% more nutrients by the end of the summer. This not only provides extra nourishment for other grazers, but prolongs the growing season of the plants themselves. Yang continues, when we lose animals, we also lose everything those animals do. When bison are exterminated, springtime changes in ways we still don't fully understand. And young. So good. Okay, Other things we don't understand. Butts. As always, Mackenzie Miller wants to know why, oh, why are their rears so small? It doesn't make any sense visually. Please rescue me. Evolutionary logic. Why do they have such small butts? That's a good question. I guess it's all in the hump.

[Allie Ward]

I guess that's where their power comes from.

[Interviewer/Host]

He explains that by having a big chest up front, the bison is able to act like a wedge through the snow, pushing aside these frozen drifts so that they can forage at these grasses below the snow. And they invested all of their muscular material toward their head and their shoulder muscles. So business in the front, they're like, why are you even bothering with my butt? Look at my hump. This is where I get my stuff done. Okay, so that makes some sense. Azriel King wants to know, how did buffalo become a term for so many things? Like, are buffalo mean? What's their temperament? Like, do they have friends? This is a lot of questions, and I'm not sorry they say, I don't know.

[Allie Ward]

They're certainly prevalent in our lexicon, and I think maybe that goes back to their. Just because they're such an iconic species.

[Interviewer/Host]

A lot of people have this question. Raymond Jeff Doidge, Laura Kunitz, and Heather Densmore all wanted to know, are bison related to woolly mammoths? Not in the least, really, other than they're mammals. The bison, by the way, as of 2016, is the official mammal of the United States. So their hair has nothing to do with it?

[Allie Ward]

No.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. Laura Merriman wants to know. In Theodore Roosevelt national park bathrooms, there's a sign that says bison can weigh up to 2,000 pounds and run up to 30 miles per hour, which is three times faster than you. Is that true? And what do you do if you upset a danger cow?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Hide behind a rock.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Best thing is not to get him mad.

[Interviewer/Host]

Charlotte Grazerowitz wants to know, I heard somewhere that bison can jump six feet in the air. Is this true?

[Allie Ward]

I don't think so. We did see a bison when we were working up along Yellowstone Lake. And this I think attests to the quality of their eyesight. As we had an excavation unit opened up and we were eating lunch and a little bit removed from probably about 20 yards away from our excavation unit. And this lone bull came walking up and got right to the edge of our hole and saw it. And he kind of wheeled up like, whoa, no. Yeah, that was pretty freaking while I could.

[Interviewer/Host]

Can you imagine if a bull tumbled into your hole?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's all we could think. I was like, okay, who's going to get that one out?

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, no. Have you ever had a scary encounter with a bison?

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Again, working along Yellowstone Lake with geologist Ken Pierce, because we were trying to understand how the archaeological record is related to lake level changes. So we were walking along the cut bank and collecting samples and Ken doing his thing of describing soils and everything. And we came up around this little wash that we were able to climb up and there's a bison sitting right there. And he's like. And then we jumped back down and he went on his merry way. But that was kind of freaky.

[Interviewer/Host]

I'm surprised that they startle. I mean, I guess they're probably not.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah, I think a lot. Yeah. I think their eyesight is not great. And, you know, all of a sudden you see this funny white guy with a hat on. It's like.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

What would you do?

[Allie Ward]

Coming up out of the.

[Interviewer/Host]

I might gore ya, but that's just me. Evan Jude wants to know how similar are bison to domesticated bovine? Can a bison produce offspring with a cow the way a horse can with a donkey?

[Allie Ward]

That was a big thing that was going on in the 19th century, the late 1890s and into the teens, there were. They were trying to breed cows and bison. I don't think they were. I think the biggest problem was is they were using male or bull bison and cow cattle. And a lot of times the babies, the fetuses were too big and were killing the cow. You know, there's beefalos out there.

[Interviewer/Host]

So. Yeah, you wouldn't breed like a Yorkie mom with a Great Dane dad. Also, I feel you should know that some cattle bison hybrids are called Beefalo or Catalo. And I think, personally, Agent Catalo sounds like a really good TV spy name. P.S. neither one of them have a favorite buffalo movie. I tried. I asked.

[Allie Ward]

I have a buffalo joke, though.

[Interviewer/Host]

I'll hear it.

[Allie Ward]

Okay, what does the mama buffalo say to their kids as they go off to school, bye, son.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's great. How did I not see that? How did I not see that coming? I'm like a bison. I have very poor eyesight. When it comes to wonderful jokes, I have finally been outdated. And also, that's a great note to leave on. So now let's get to the questions that you asked wildlife ecologist Dan, who I always want to call Ken, but Ken is the archaeologist. This is Dan. Okay. Okay. Let's talk to wildlife ecologist Dan. Can I ask you some Patreon questions, please? Some listener questions? Okay. Victoria Demarest, Kathleen Fast, Ivory Detter. Want to know what's up with birds and bison? And also, why are they just hanging out, just kicking it, sitting on their humps and picking at their wounds? What's going on with the birds?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

They're eating parasites.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yeah. Ticks, flies, things like that. You see this with magpies. Will sort of perch on a bison and do a little foraging.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. They're bros, though. They're friends.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's not very convincing.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

However, if the bison is sick and if it does have a wound, it can attract a lot of scavengers, and it turns into sort of more of a harassment type of an issue. Yeah, yeah. But generally speaking, it's not a big deal for bison to have a magpie on them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kristin Smith wants to know, do bison really only have one lung, or was that just a myth made up by white people who couldn't fathom how native Americans were able to kill an animal so big without a gun?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Wow, that's a really interesting question. I did not know of that myth, and so I really can't comment on, you know, whether it was a good one or a bad one, other than obviously it's not true. They do have two lungs.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. Yeah. P.S. this myth started because while bison have two lungs, they share one lung cavity with no division between the lungs. So now you know that little trivia nugget, and all you will talk about will be buffalo. This is a question I got from two past ologists. Jennifer Booz, an aeriologist. She's a Mars expert. Also Julie Lesnick, who studies eating bugs. Sustainable protein. They both asked. Can you please dissect the sentence? Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo. Buffalo. Do you have any idea what they're talking about?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

No, I'm afraid not.

[Interviewer/Host]

This was also asked by Graham Tattersall. In your experience, do buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, buffalo. And I have no idea what they're talking about. But I have a feeling that there's something, some kind of grammatical loophole where that is a sentence.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yeah, I'm sort of queasy just thinking about it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, right. I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'll unpack it. Let's see. I know I was like, I was like, is this. Are two. How are two ologists both on the same hallucinogen submitting questions? Of course. I looked this up and in this case it's indeed a grammatically correct English language sentence with buffalo meaning of Buffalo, New York, another buffalo meaning bison, and another buffalo meaning the verb to buffalo or to bully. So according to my friend workerpedia, Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo. Buffalo is translated to mean the buffalo from buffalo who are buffaloed by buffalo from buffalo. Buffalo. Other buffalo from buffalo.

[Allie Ward]

God, I need nap.

[Interviewer/Host]

So a lot of people asked this question and I will put them all on an aside. Possibly hungry patrons Teresa Dizazo and Lael Stefkova, plus a bounty of first time question. Brittany K. Milo Cuesta, Holly Boud, Daniela Buchanan, Michelle Grandin and Samantha Kenney specifically all asked, why do we eat bison burgers? Are there enough bison for that? And if they're threatened to low numbers, how can they be used as a food product?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Oh, well, they're commercial herds.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yeah. They live on big ranches out in places like South Dakota, elsewhere. Yeah. So these are not what I would call conservation herds like Yellowstone or Wind Cave or the Henry Mountains or National Bison Range. Those wild conservation herds are not, you know, they're not turned into burgers at restaurants now. They're hunted. So Yellowstone bison are hunted. There's a tribal hunt every fall that occurs on the northern end of the park. And then the Henry Mountains herd is hunted. The Utah Division of Wildlife oversees that hunt. But these aren't animals that are being shipped to processing plants. That's more like a regulated hunt.

[Allie Ward]

Can I interject something interesting about bison is even though they were down to a couple dozen at the turn of the last century, they have never been on the endangered species list.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why is that?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

That's a good question.

[Allie Ward]

I don't know, but they have never been nominated as an endangered species. Even today, no one has taken that task on that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Seems. Is that a political choice? It couldn't be that big an oversight. I'll look into that. That's.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

There's probably some interesting history there.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, that's bananas. I'll look into that. That's nuts. So from what I can gather, the population was so regally boned by European settlers that bison were just considered ecologically extinct. And while there may only be a few thousand in wild herds, ranching has now grown bison's numbers to several hundred thousand in the US So they're considered near threatened, which is the lowest level of concern. It offers pretty much a you'll be fine kiddo level of protection. Bridget Fitzgerald, Queen Bee Ceramics and Carla Hickenlooper said Queen Bee Ceramics asked. I just found out that Yellowstone bison population is managed by culling the bison herd every winter. Reading about this makes my heart hurt as I didn't realize that bison were not a protected species. So what's your take on the interagency bison management plan? What are they doing right? What's going on with it?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Well, they're dealing with a difficult problem in terms of increasing numbers of bison and not necessarily increasing amounts of area in which to have bison. And so they're forced to come up with a plan to keep numbers at a level that in which they have enough habitat for them. Because if bison aren't allowed to roam unhindered outside the park, then you're going to need fewer bison. But I think what listeners also have to be really clear about is that wildlife being culled in Yellowstone is not a new phenomena, a new thing. And of course bison now aren't being called inside the park. There's a sort of broader misconception that wildlife in Yellowstone are free from human interference. And that is not the case. You're moving across the park boundary and you're dealing with human beings. And that often means having to dodge a bullet. And that's been a part of life as a large mammal, large non human mammal in Yellowstone, you know, really since Europeans arrived, which of course is shitty.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now what is shitty about archaeologist Ken's job? What's the hardest thing about your job? Or what is something that you dislike about your job? Something about your job that sucks, that you're like, I wish this didn't happen.

[Allie Ward]

Lack of funding. Yeah, that's the biggest thing. Grants, trying to find funds.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Allie Ward]

And spending an inordinate amount of time begging for money to do research.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you have to present a case why this is important to ecology, why this is? What is. Is your angle more ecological or anthropological?

[Allie Ward]

It's both. It depends on what we're looking for. My dissertation research and continue research is bison ecology. So it's understanding the ecology of bison. And yeah, it's tough. We don't need a lot of money. We work really cheaply and get a lot out of the money we do get.

[Interviewer/Host]

How much does a field season cost? I asked this of a paleontologist. He could fund a field season for less than a used Toyota.

[Allie Ward]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Oh, yeah, what? Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

I was like, you could have the cheapest wedding or you could find a dinosaur.

[Allie Ward]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Host]

So are we. So you have to petition and petition and petition for funding that other people might spend on, like, a rafting trip.

[Allie Ward]

Sure. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

A very nice bicycle or something.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Very nice bicycle. Again, a lot of samples analyzed. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. And what's equally annoying is that it takes as much time to write a grant for $1,500 as it does for $150,000.

[Interviewer/Host]

So that's a lot of time you could be spending looking at things.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. Politicians complain about. They're always having to raise money to get reelected. Well, so do we.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Allie Ward]

And I think we do a better job with the money that we get.

[Interviewer/Host]

Bison for president. And let's talk crap with Yellowstone, Dan. And what's the shittiest thing about your job? It sucks. Does it get cold? Do you get snow in your pants? Something must suck.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

And I think this is not an uncommon complaint. I think a lot of people have this problem with their jobs is just the volume of work that we're all expected to do in a very short period of time. And trying to do it all as well as you want to do it. That's tough.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Host]

What's the best thing about bison? Best thing about your job?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

The best thing about my job is that, for the most part, I get to set my own agenda in terms of the questions that I ask, the people that I seek out as collaborators. These are all decisions that I get to make. And what was the other part of your question?

[Interviewer/Host]

Just what you like about your job or about bison?

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Oh, about bison. I like bison because they're so tough. Bison are really interesting because you'll see them out in the landscape, and they'll sort of lull you into this sort of false sense of knowing what they're all about, because, oh, there they are. There's a herd of bison. And that's. That's the same herd of bison that was there last year and the year before that and year before that. All of a sudden, the following year, they're gone. You don't know why they're gone. Where did they go? Why did they leave? And so I think bison, they can be surprising in a very unpredictable way.

[Allie Ward]

Right.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

That seems kind of silly to say. But they can catch you off guard. And so that's what makes them interesting subjects of study, I suppose.

[Interviewer/Host]

And a last question I always ask is, what do you love most about your job? What do you love about bison?

[Allie Ward]

What I love about my job. I think what's great about archaeology is that we get to do a lot of things. I mean, we get to be in the field, we get to collect data, we get to get dirty, we get to get rained on. And then we get to come back and sit in front of computers and try and make sense of all that stuff. So it uses a lot of different parts of your brain and your body. And some of the best people. My best friends I've met doing this work. My wife I met doing this work.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is she a bisonologist?

[Allie Ward]

She's not a bisonologist, but she's an archaeologist, and we do a lot of work together.

[Interviewer/Host]

How'd you guys meet?

[Allie Ward]

She was working with me.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Did you guys work alongside each other for a while before you're like, oh, no, there's a smoldering attraction happening?

[Allie Ward]

Well, yeah, we have to. It's a different time period.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Allie Ward]

It's actually her boss, but it seemed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Like it worked out.

[Allie Ward]

Yeah. She has yet to file any suits against me.

[Interviewer/Host]

How long have you been married?

[Allie Ward]

Oh, God, what are we now? 17 years.

[Interviewer/Host]

17 years. So it's working out. Yeah.

[Allie Ward]

Got four kids.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, you don't wear a ring, though.

[Allie Ward]

Broke.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, no. How did it break?

[Allie Ward]

My fingers Cut fat.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, that's one way to do it. You're just storing up for the winter. You're just storing up for the winter.

[Allie Ward]

We haven't doing that for way too long, so.

[Interviewer/Host]

Great people. Wonderful people.

[Allie Ward]

Yes. Wonderful people.

[Interviewer/Host]

It never gets old.

[Allie Ward]

It never gets old. No, it never does.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thank you so much for talking to me about Bison. Bison.

[Allie Ward]

And thanks to your listeners for great questions.

[Interviewer/Host]

They care about bison.

[Allie Ward]

They do. Yeah. That's nice to hear.

[Interviewer/Host]

Everyone loves a bison. Everyone. Including my cousin Boyd and Lila. What is your favorite thing about a buffalo? Is there anything that's just, like, charmed its way into your heart? Oh, they're really playful. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Like, you can watch them chase each.

[Interviewer/Host]

Other around over there and run and jump and play. And then if a car stops to watch them, they all stop and watch the car. They're posing for the picture. They're models. They're total goofballs. And then they act out when people are looking so cute. I want to come visit when I come in summer for the reunion. Can I come visit oh, you're more than welcome. We have an extra bed at the house. Yay. One more very important question. Do buffaloes accept hugs or is that a bad idea? Oh, bad idea. Okay. Yeah. All right, fine. I'll cross that off my list, then. I won't hug a buffalo. Yeah, you don't wanna. When you come up, you can hug one. Okay. I'll make sure my health insurance policy is up to date before. But when you come up, we'll take you out to a guy's place that's out by the border that has white buffalo. What they have. There's white buffalo. Some of them are born white and.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Some of them are born brown and then turn white.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow. Oh, that's nuts. I want to look that up. I don't even know that existed. White buffalo is. Yeah, that's. He's big medicine to the Blackfoot tribe. Yeah. These really big medicines all the time. What does that mean, big medicine? It's like the top of the medicine. It's just so.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

He's like, God, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, wow. Gosh, I bet that's gotta be such a sight to see, especially in the snow. Yeah, they're pretty cool. Oh, my gosh. Oh, this makes me want to look at pictures of buffalo all day. Now I just want to go online, look at pictures of buffalo. I'm going to go do that. Well, have a good rest of your Sunday, you guys.

[Dr. Dan McNulty]

Yep, you too.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, bye. Love you guys. Love you. Bye. Bye, cyn. Love you too. But I will not hug you out of respect of your big ass horns. So if you loved all of these folks, head to alieward.comologies bisonology to find out more about them and some links to the organizations we talked about and to the sponsors of the show. Those links are also always in the show notes and you can please be our friend on Instagram and Twitter. We're Ologies. I'm Allie Ward with one L on both and you can subscribe and rate and leave a review for me to read possibly on the podcast on Apple Podcasts or itunes. Ologies T shirts and hats and totes and sweatshirts and socks are [e-mail] thank you, Shannon Feltus and Boni Dutch of the comedy podcast. You are that for managing that. Thank you, Erin Talbert for admin in the Ologies Facebook group. Leaped episodes and transcripts are [e-mail] ologies extras. There's a link in the show notes and thank you, Emily White and all the Ologies transcribers in the Facebook group for your amazing hard work. The theme music was written and performed by Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. And special thanks to hearthrob Jarrett Sleeper for staying up way too late helping me string this beastly, beastly episode out. And Mom, I'm I'm so sorry that I told the buffalo story, but I'm very proud to share your curly headed jeans. And thank you as always every week to the rare gentle creature Steven Ray Morris and his buffalo mustache for bearing with tight deadlines and multiple files and editing all our pieces together to get it to your ears on time. And if you last until the end of the episode each week you hear a secret. This week's secret is a sweet one. Our award Family reunions every few years in Montana are what made me love science so much. And I'm so lucky to have gotten to sit on a dock in the summer and watch these bats at dusk and see these big huge osprey nests and get to sleep in a family teepee and hear stories. For the longest time I thought that when you just get older you start talking weird. And then I learned later that it was just my aunt's Montana accents. And we'd sometimes call my grandpa on the phone and we'd ask what he was up to and he'd say, oh, you know, just watching the wind blow. And the older I get, the more the hobby seems like tight as hell. Okay, bye bye. Pachydermatology Homeology Cryptozoology Litology Nanotechnology Meteorology Olfactology Mapology Serology Sociology Foreign. Don't touch it.

[Allie Ward]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Allie Ward]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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