Ologies with Alie Ward

"Critical Ponerology (WHAT IS “EVIL”?) with Kenneth MacKendrick"

Podcast Date: October 22, 2025
Guest: Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick, Professor in the Department of Religion, University of Manitoba
Episode Theme: An exploration of the concept of evil—its origins, definitions, use, and impact across history, cultures, and daily life. Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick shares insights from his academic work, personal background, and years teaching about 'evil' from a critical, nuanced perspective.

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the study of evil—ponerology—with Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick. Alie and Dr. MacKendrick unpack how the label “evil” is defined, used, and weaponized. They explore evil’s place in religion, history, culture, pop culture (think vampires and D&D), and personal interactions, focusing not on “what is evil,” but how and why the concept is evoked, and what it does in the world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining Ponerology and Its Scope

• Ponerology: From the Greek for “evil.” It traditionally means the study of evil, especially in theological contexts.
• Dr. MacKendrick's approach: Moves away from strictly theological definitions. Instead, examines how societies, individuals, and institutions use the concept of evil, especially outside of monotheism.
  • “I'm interested in human beings... how something ordinary gets turned into the extraordinary.” (04:13)

The Problem of Defining Evil

• Most books and discussions focus on atrocities (genocide, torture, etc.), with ritualistic sections on natural evil (disasters), and narrative (villains, pop culture).
• There’s a gap in understanding how we come to call something evil: Why label Dracula an “abomination” to be destroyed, rather than a criminal to be tried?
  • “How did we get to this idea of evil, where we could actually apprehend something as evil?” (05:39)
  • “The characters [in Dracula] scare me more because they've empowered themselves to have no guilt, no shame, no doubt, no hesitation. And those things are actually seen as weaknesses.” (08:28)

Vengeance vs. Justice

• Vengeance and justice are culturally and contextually slippery notions, often defined by whoever controls the narrative or power.
  • “If I call something evil, that gives me a little bit of control over the situation. And if people buy my conception of evil, that gives me a lot of power, right?” (09:32)

The Baggage of “Evil”

• The term is loaded, both in religious and secular contexts.
• Dr. MacKendrick avoids using it in daily life due to its freight, much in the way he avoids using “religion” outside academic contexts.
  • “It comes with so much baggage, it comes with so much freight that to introduce it into conversation is just, it's not really helpful.” (11:04)

Personal and Academic Origins

• Dr. MacKendrick’s background: Grew up in an academic, not overtly religious home; played D&D; later exposed to Pentecostal traditions through his wife’s family.
• His interest in evil partly grew from navigating and reconciling these different worlds.
• Shared family stories highlight how differing worldviews can coexist around the dinner table.
  • “When you focus on what's at hand… a lot of these larger worlds… take a chill pill.” (15:15)

The “Dirt” Analogy: Purity, Danger, and Evil

• Mary Douglas’s concept of dirt as “matter out of place” is critical to understanding how evil is constructed.
• Evil is often associated with impurity, disorder, or things/people that threaten categorical boundaries.
• Example: Classroom potato chip experiment dramatizes emotional reactions to “dirt,” showing cleanliness, purity, and danger underpin moral judgments.
  • “Dirt doesn't get a lawyer. Dirt gets eliminated.” (19:10)
  • “So when you said that, like, this was a dirty thing to do, all of a sudden you were conjuring things like death and poverty… and for me, that's gold.” (22:12)

The Uses and Dangers of the Evil Label

• Evil becomes a tool: To control, vilify, and often justify severe actions (e.g., genocide, colonialism).
• Case study: Canadian residential schools—how authorities labeled indigenous practices “evil” to justify oppression and genocide.
  • “They were being cleaned of their old evil ways in the eyes of those that ran them.” (33:39)
  • “It tries to move things below the threshold of perception so that they can be swept away without people noticing, like cleaning your floor.” (33:39)

Binary vs. Continuum: Good, Evil, and Classification

• Certain cultures emphasize stark binaries (good/evil, clean/unclean), others see more grey.
• Subject/object thinking allows for dehumanization—turning people into objects, a process key to evil’s enactment (in war, medicine, daily life, media).
  • “If you have that subject object model and you really double down on that model, then you're going to be turning subjects into objects all the time.” (34:31)

The Elasticity and Power of Language

• “Evil” is a slippery, extremely useful word—used in casual cultures, political rhetoric, and pop culture to describe everything from vampires to tobacco marketing.
• The word’s pervasiveness makes it an easy moral shortcut, but also obscures nuance and complicates justice.
• Republican politicians use the term “evil” much more in political correspondence than Democrats (89% vs. 11% as of 2025).
  • “We see evil used to apply to people or occupations… institutions… the unseen and the invisible… it's a pretty fun, handy term to be able to use. It denotes almost anything.” (44:17)

Definitions: Can We Pin Down “Evil”?

• MacKendrick’s definition for class: anything “dangerous and aversive” can be labeled evil, underlining how context-dependent it is.
• Admits this is artificial, too broad for practical use, but useful to show the breadth and relativity of the concept.
  • “You have to figure out the definition that you're using, and then you can go ahead and use it as a scholar.” (38:19)

Emotion, Shame, Disgust, and Evil

• Disgust motivates removal of objects; shame motivates withdrawal of the self—both are powerful drivers for labeling things (and people) as evil.
• Guilt is about action, shame about being, which often leads to self-destructive behavior or projection of “evil” onto others.
  • “Shame is when we want ourselves to disappear. Right. It hurts because it is part of who you are.” (24:39)

Evil, Gender, and Power

• Across cultures, femininity/women are disproportionately associated with impurity, danger, and evil.
• This patriarchal association is “extremely common,” though not universal.
  • "The feminine coincides with prevalent notions of evil. If you're looking at like dangerous or harmful or not to be trusted or polluted or profane or contagious, very often the feminine is associated with that." (59:25)

Evil in Pop Culture & Storytelling

• Simplified good vs. evil narratives dominate kids’ media and folktales because humans are cognitively wired for these binaries.
• “Great storytelling makes use of these things”—not because they’re true, but because they’re compelling.
  • “Good and evil, the battles between good and evil. And we really do thrive on the conflict.” (55:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How did we get to this idea of evil where we could actually apprehend something as evil?” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (05:39)
• “[Evil’s] a tool… If I call something evil, that gives me a little bit of control over the situation.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (09:32)
• “[In Dracula] The characters scare me more because they've empowered themselves to have no guilt, no shame, no doubt, no hesitation… those things are actually seen as weaknesses.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (08:28)
• “Dirt doesn't get a lawyer. Dirt gets eliminated.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (19:10)
• “When you use the term evil, people make lots of assumptions about what that word means and maybe who you are and… what that entails.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (11:04)
• “We can learn something from dirt… matter out of place… the things that don't fit in, the things that defy our categories.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (64:26)
• “Who benefits from this [system of classification]? Is it corporations? Is it my parents? Is it the teachers? Is it students?” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (63:56)
• “The actual harmful concept is the binary—is the classification—that's maybe a harm that we should be more aware of.” — Alie Ward (63:44)
• “You see more colors because you've got the language to do that. We are developing new vocabularies all the time… it's really exciting.” — Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick (58:58)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:05 — Dr. MacKendrick introduces himself and sets boundaries between theological and sociological study of evil
• 05:09 — His teaching experience and perspective on the topic
• 07:24 — The Dracula example: moral labeling and consequences in fiction and reality
• 15:15 — On family and navigating strong ideological differences
• 18:28 — Dirt, purity, and the roots of moral categorization
• 21:54 — Potato chip experiment and “dirt” as a stand-in for evil
• 24:39 — Shame, disgust, guilt: emotions that underpin moral condemnation
• 29:39 — Evil as a tool for oppression: schools, genocide, and colonialism
• 34:31 — Subject-object thinking and dehumanization
• 38:09 — The pitfalls and power of defining evil
• 42:33 — Data: “evil” in US political rhetoric, right vs. left
• 44:17 — “Evil” in Ologies and pop culture: survey and critique
• 53:18–54:45 — Listener questions: age and "evilness," especially in children
• 55:16 — Good vs. evil in children’s media
• 59:25 — Evil, femininity, and patriarchy across cultures
• 64:26 — Favorite villains and why “dirt” is more interesting than the devil

Listener Questions & Insights

• Are children/adolescents more evil? Hard to answer without defining “evil”; behavior judged annoying or harmful varies with context and intent. (53:57)
• Why are villains in kids’ shows always evil? Narratives thrive on binaries; clean/dirty and good/evil are cognitively sticky. (55:16)
• Do animals understand evil? Not in the human sense, but definitely have concepts of harm, danger, and aversion. (56:43)
• Is evil linguistically constructed? Yes; language shapes how and what we see. More words = more nuanced classification. (58:08)
• Is evil gendered? Across cultures, “evil” is often tied to women and the feminine, driven by patriarchal social structures. (59:25)
• Evil and genius: “Evil genius” is a powerful, culturally potent archetype—intelligence as a threat. (61:14)

Conclusion & Reflections

• The central harm may not be “evil” per se, but the binary classifications humans make, and the uses those classifications serve.
• Dr. MacKendrick urges listeners to stay critical, aware of the power and elasticity of the language they use, and to be mindful about wielding labels like “evil.”
• Final takeaway: “Ask critical thinkers confused questions because honestly, without questions there would be no knowledge or thinking. Maybe. So here we are. And thanks for sticking around to get evil with us.” — Alie Ward (65:48)

Further Resources

• Dr. Kenneth MacKendrick’s book: A Critical Primer
• Charity of choice: North Point Douglas Women’s Center

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