A (5:14)

I'm great, thanks.

B (5:16)

I'm sure as a happiness doctor, as a. As a professor of happiness, you probably are inclined to say, I feel great more often than the rest of us.

A (5:27)

You'd think I'm inclined to be honest because one thing the happiness science shows is that being honest about our negative emotions is important too. So when things are tough, I'm like, you know, it's tough, but, you know, but today's been a good day.

B (5:39)

That's great. I'm already learning so much. Can I have you say really quick your first and last name and your pronouns?

A (5:48)

Sure. I'm Laurie Santos, and my pronouns are she, her.

B (5:51)

You have been on my radar for years, actually, and so I'm really stoked to talk to you because this is an ology that I've wanted to do for, I think, since before I even started the podcast. Do you. Are you familiar with this? That wordamonology?

A (6:09)

No.

B (6:10)

Maybe that word, it's ued.

A (6:14)

Oh, sorry, yes. Eudemology, maybe.

B (6:17)

Eudemology? Yes.

A (6:18)

Like eudaimonia is the word. Yes. Yeah.

B (6:20)

So I guess this is the study of that feeling or that state. And you're the perfect person to talk to because obviously you have your podcast and you teach courses at Yale about this. So can you tell me a little bit about your background? How did you start studying cognition and feelings? Where did it start?

A (6:44)

Yeah, well, I've. I've been a psychologist, you know, forever. I think I've always been interested in the human mind and how it works and things. But, you know, before I got into the study of happiness specifically, I was really interested in the origins of cognition, so the origins of how we think. And I studied that by looking at non human animals. I studied how monkeys and dogs think about the world. And that was kind of my day job until I took on a new role on Yale's campus, where I became what's called a head of college. And so Yale's kind of like one of these weird schools, like in Harry Potter, where there are, like, colleges within a college, you know, like kind of Gryffindor, Slytherin sort of thing. I'm head of Silliman College, and that means I live on campus with students. And when I started the role, I was expecting it to be, you know, like, you know, rainbows and parties and just like, happy students all the time. But when I got there, you know, I was really seeing the college student mental health crisis up close and personal, you know, with so many students reporting feeling depressed and anxious and, you know, even if they weren't, you know, at clinical levels of mental health dysfunction, they were just kind of feeling stressed and sort of fast forwarding their life, you know, and just feeling overwhelmed and really busy. And so I kind of wanted to do something about it, you know, I Didn't like being in this culture where so many students were stressed and depressed and just kind of not enjoying their time in college. And so I thought, well, let me, you know, figure out what my field of psychology says about this. And psychology gives us so many tips that we can use to feel better. And so I thought, all right, great, I'll do what professors do. I'll make a whole class on this. So I prepped this class that I christened Psychology and the Good Life and slapped it together thinking 30 or so students would take it. And you can imagine my surprise when a quarter of the entire campus enrolled the first time I taught it. Yeah, we couldn't fit the class anywhere. We had to teach it in a concert hall on campus because that was the only place it would fit. But that showed me students are voting with their feet. They don't like this culture of feeling so overwhelmed and stressed and I think really wanted, you know, science based strategies they could use to feel better.

B (8:44)

Yeah, much different, I think, than just Instagram quotes on a page. Here you've got someone who studies the brain, who studies psychology. You're probably people go into it with a little bit of faith that you'll have some evidence based information.

A (8:59)

Right, exactly. And I, you know, I mean, I think, you know, the. What One of the things that's interesting is we learn, as you look into the science, you learn that, you know, some of those ancient pieces of wisdom were quite accurate. You know, some of the platitudes we see are quite accurate, you know, but some not so much. Right. And I think that's why we need an empirical approach. Right. We can just ask scientifically, okay, if we find happy people, what are they doing differently, what are their strategies, how are they spending their time? And then we can let the not so happy people copy that and really test, you know, are they feeling happier, are they feeling less depressed? And you know, these days we have almost, you know, two decades worth of scientific work that's done that in this field of positive psychology. And, you know, we've learned a lot. There's lots of evidence based tips out there for what you can do to feel better.

B (9:44)

Okay. So the term positive psychology was popularized by Dr. Martin Seligman, who felt that the contemporary psychology was just too deeply focused on what's fucked up about us, not how can we live better. So it focuses on things like self discovery and a sense of purpose and expressing yourself through creativity and authentically. So we're going to get to more of that in a bit. But first from small hairy primates to larger, slightly less hairy primates like us. And, you know, where did you make that jump from non human primates and dogs into humans? Did you find that a lot of the research just correlates based on what our brain structures are, how our neurons work?

A (10:28)

Well, it's interesting. The work I was doing with dogs and monkeys was more kind of figuring out, you know, how they decide what they know about the world. But there was a rich similarity, which is that when you start looking into the happiness science work, you quickly realize a big way that we get things wrong, which is that we have some really bad theories about the kinds of things that make us happy. You know, when I talk to my students and on my podcast, I often say, you know, our minds are lying to us about the sorts of things that will make us happy. You know, we think it's money and changing our circumstances and, you know, getting the perfect accolade or the perfect grade, but those things seem not to work. And that tied really nicely to some of the work we were doing in animals where we showed that some of the deepest irrationalities we have in our species might be evolutionarily old. They're kind of built in. And I think the same thing about some of the things we get wrong about happiness. Like, even knowing these studies, it's hard for me to change my intuitions. You know, I still think, well, if I, you know, hit Powerball today, oh man, I'd be so much happier. Or, you know, if it just wasn't raining today, I'd be so much happier if, you know, we could change my circumstances drastically. That would really improve my well being. But I know the scientific work that suggests that's probably not the case.

B (11:38)

Okay, so I looked into some data on if Powerball winners are happier, and it's a mixed bag of money. So one thing for sure, people do take more vacations when they win the lottery. And by contrast, 60% of Americans take zero vacations a year. And apparently one thing that pleases us so much about vacations is just having something, anything to look forward to. So just start peppering your calendar with any excursion you can, Even if it's just like a nice bowl of soup next Wednesday or a hike next weekend, Pack a picnic. Leisure time on any scale is apparently worth a million bucks and tax free. So, hey, is happiness more about being happy with ourselves and accepting ourselves or external circumstances, or is it mission based, like you're on the right path to doing something that you believe in?

A (12:32)

Yeah, it's a few of all of those things, I mean, I think one thing in terms of our circumstances, you know, it's worth noting that if you're in really dire, traumatic circumstances, yes, getting different circumstances will really, you know, improve your well being. You know, if you're living below the poverty line or if you're in an abusive relationship, you do want to change those circumstances. But for many of the people privileged enough to listen to this podcast, who can, you know, put food on the table, you know, has a roof over their head, and so on, you know, changing your circumstances might not affect your happiness as much as you think. For many of us, circumstances isn't the. Changing our circumstances isn't the fastest path to feeling a little bit happier.

B (13:12)

So is it mind over matter? This is where you ask smart persons doofy questions.

A (13:17)

Often it's more about changing our mindset, which incorporates a lot of the things you mentioned. You know, it's about changing the way we see the world, changing the way we see our circumstances, changing the extent to which we're present with our circumstances and our emotions. But it's also, you know, tapping into things that give us meaning in life, you know, giving us a sense of purpose, you know, so all of those things seem to matter a lot more than what our salary level is or for my students, you know, the. The last grade they got in their midterm and things like that, backing up a little bit.

B (13:48)

What is happiness? How do you even define it?

A (13:52)

Yeah, tricky. I mean, we could take, you know, many, many podcast episodes of, you know, fighting over a definition of happiness. You know, social scientists tend to try to be simpler than philosophers, so they go for a definition of. That's pretty easy to measure. And so most social scientists think about happiness as sort of being happy in your life and with your life. And so, you know, being happy in your life is just having lots of positive emotions, right? You know, like, you have experienced joy and laughter and fun, and less often, things like sadness and anger. Not. Not that those aren't there at all, right? Because a full and complete life includes some negative emotions, but, you know, the ratio is pretty good. That's sort of being happy in your life, being happy with your life. Is that meaning, that sense of purpose? It's the answer to the question, all things considered, how satisfied am I with my life? And those two constructs are ones that scientists measure separately. And it's worth noting that they do sometimes dissociate. You know, that I think if you go on Instagram, there are a lot of people who are happy in their life, they're eating these hedonistic meals on some plane somewhere. But if, you know, if you look at how they're feeling with their life, I bet they're feeling pretty empty. And you can also have cases of the opposite. My dean, who I live with here in the college, you know, she and her wife recently just had a baby and newborn baby. You know, you're really happy with your life. Oh my God, this rich sense of meaning, being a mom, but in your life, dirty diapers and not sleeping and so they can dissociate, but best case scenario is that you're feeling pretty high on both of those.

B (15:19)

So I'm going to pause us for a second just to ponder. How do you feel in your life? How are your days? Todays, maybe some nice tea in the morning, some supportive co workers, maybe some evening knitting or a walk with a friend. Or do you hate your coffee maker and you don't know why? You started rewatching the Big Bang Theory from episode one. You're tired, go to bed now. What about with your life? Do you feel a sense of purpose? Are you proud of your life? Do you feel authentic? Just think about it for a second. It's totally okay if you're like, some of it's good, some of it sucks eggs or I'm very fortunate. Why am I such a grumpy walrus?

A (15:55)

And there are lots of different hacks that we can do to improve both of those constructs.

B (16:00)

In terms of emotions themselves, is happiness an umbrella for things like joy and relief and satisfaction and contentment? Or are those all individual, separate emotions?

A (16:13)

Yeah, I mean, it kind of depends. I think, you know, we, we and sometimes scientists, philosophers, you know, all of us, you know, we can get really kind of tied up on the specifics, right? You know, is joy a subcomponent of happiness or is it bigger than happiness? What about contentment and things like that? I'm more of the opinion of, you kind of know him when you see him, right? You want a construct that's easy enough that if I give people some sort of self report measure that they can tell me about it. But beyond that, I don't want to get into a big fight about, well, is it joy, is it contentment, is it 45% or is it 50%? You know, I think you kind of know it when you see it. But we could probably dig in. I mean, there's nuance there. You know, the kind of calm contentment feels different than a kind of manic, excited happiness than, you know, A deep sense of joy. You know, these are different constructs and maybe importantly so. But overall, what we're going for is as many of those as possible.

B (17:03)

And what about you in particular? I know that you said you can read the studies and understand and know, but sometimes it's hard to do. How has your life changed since you switched a little bit of your career focus on this?

A (17:20)

Yeah, well, it's definitely, statistically speaking, made me much happier. I'm a nerd, right? So I take these surveys myself about how satisfied are you with your life on a scale of 1 to 10 and stuff like that, you know, on most 10 point scales of both kind of happiness in my life and happiness with my life. I've gone up at least a point since focusing on this stuff. But it's not like magic, right? It's in part just because I'm doing the things that I keep telling my students to do. You know, I'm practicing gratitude. I'm improving my social connection, I'm meditating more, I'm exercising. Like, I'm doing all this stuff in a big list of, hey, if you do these things scientifically, seems like you'll feel better. And now I'm doing those and I'm feeling better, so it kind of makes sense. There's also something wonderful about being the happiness professor because, you know, I have a whole host of students and podcast listeners who, you know, if I'm not doing the right thing, will probably call me out. You know, my students see me, oh, how's it going? Like, oh, I'm so frustrated, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, my students call me head of college Santos. So it's Hawk Santos. It's what it's abbreviated to. And they'll be like, hak Santos, Aren't you supposed to be practicing gratitude? You know, it's like, ugh, okay, yes, you're right, you know, so I will get called out if I'm not practicing this stuff.

B (18:32)

Do you feel like your friends come to you for more pep talks or fewer because they just look at your published work instead?

A (18:40)

Yeah, you know, I think my friends are my friends. Right. You know, they don't necessarily see me as a happiness expert. You know, if anything, I think the happiness expert thing can become a little bit, you know, annoying at times of like, well, you know, I have a podcast on that. You know, it's like, no, they just want me to be their friend, you know, and so try to separate the two a little bit.

B (18:57)

Shit, am I not supposed to talk about Podcast episodes with my friends. Because I've told a lot of people about wildfires and how lizards have two dogs. Let's change the subject. Well, let's get into some of those factors because I know that you. You rattled them off. And it's a lot of things that we. We feel like we know, but we don't necessarily know why or the mechanisms of how that works. You know, exercise, practicing gratitude. Can you run me down those things and in a nutshell, tell me why they. Why do they work?

A (19:28)

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's different kinds of categories of them. You know, one whole set of categories are there's a whole host of things that make us happier that are about connecting with other people. Right. Literally being around other people is considered a necessary condition for high happiness in a lot of studies. And that's true even for introverts. So just literally connecting with and being around other people, super useful for happiness. But another way that you connect with other people is to focus on what makes them happy. Lots of evidence that doing random acts of kindness, spending money and time on other people, that makes us feel happier. And in some cases, especially with spending money, you're happier spending money on others than you even are spending on yourself. You know, so this, this attitude of social connection and doing for others, you know, a powerful set of practices to make us feel happier. Another set of practices really has to do with our mindset. You know, do we have a mindset of kind of griping and complaining, or are we focused on things we're grateful for? You know, are we paying attention to the negative things in life, or are we focused on delights? Are we present enough to savor some of the good things and just, you know, present in general to notice our emotions and notice things. There's evidence suggesting that a wandering mind is an unhappy mind. So just the act of a mindset of being present can be really powerful for happiness.

B (20:45)

So for more on a daily practice of looking for things that aren't the fucking worst, I linked the awesome ology episode in the show notes. Also, learning this next term killed me. I'm dead. I'm a fungus now.

A (20:58)

And then there's just a whole host of things that I think we kind of know are good for our physical health, but we forget can be so important for our mental health. You know, things like taking time to exercise, taking time to sleep, which is a huge one, and just having, like, some time off. There's lots of evidence that something called time affluence, the subjective sense that you have some free time is much more critical for happiness than we. Than we realize. And so, you know, all of those things as I say them, you know, we can go through the scientific studies and so on, and, you know, your listeners might be thinking like, well, I kind of know that. And what I like to say is it's, you know, it's common wisdom, but it's not common practice. You know, how many of those things that I just rattled off aren't things that you're doing right now, you know, and then that's why I think it's really critical to know the science, because as you hear the science of, say, nutrition, you think, like, oh, maybe I should eat healthier. I think as you hear the science of how things like social connection and exercise work, you start thinking, oh, maybe those are things I really do need to get in more of. You know, I kind of knew it, but now that I see the evidence, this does seem really important.

B (22:02)

So connecting with people, talking face to face is better for us than just text. The Phone works, too. FaceTime is even better than the phone. Also, helping others when you can. Looking for lovely, shiny things amid the compost pile that can feel like life. Also, sleep and exercise, it can be immediate or like exercise, it can be a few weeks before these habits really take root and you start to feel better. So don't give up. Give it a few weeks, especially since it's free. Are you feeling lazy and annoyed? Don't worry. A lot of us feel that way when we start doing something that will keep us alive and happy. So I asked Dr. Santos for us. Why am I like this? Why do you think? From some sort of evolutionary standpoint, when we're bummed out, it's harder to do the things that would make us less bummed out.

A (22:49)

Yeah, super frustrating. Like, the mind is designed in, like, a really stupid way, you know, I mean, we knew this, you know, from other evolutionary studies, but definitely when it comes. When it comes to happiness. That's the case. In one of my upcoming episodes of the Happiness Lab. I talk about this really stupid design feature of the brain where there's just a different. Like, a whole different brain system that codes for what we like, you know, so the things we really enjoy versus the things that we want, the things that we're motivated to go after, that we crave. The simplest example is, like, you know, sometimes when I'm having a bad day at work, I just, like, crave, like, plopping down and watching Netflix or, like, eating a cupcake or having, like, A huge glass of wine. But like, if you actually look at how much I would like that, the Netflix is gonna make me apathetic and the cupcake's gonna give me the jitters and the wine, I'm not gonna sleep very well. Like, ultimately the liking has this disconnect from the wanting and you get it in the reverse direction too. Like, I don't, after a long day at work, crave a really hard peloton ride or like, you know, like a really hard yoga class or like taking a long walk with a friend. I don't, I don't have like the same motivation I have for that, that I do for like the cupcake or the boring relaxing thing or a hit of social media. But even though I don't have the wanting, if I actually engage in that practice, I'll feel so much better. And so this is a dumb way to design a brain. Like, you'd think that wanting would kind of go with liking, but it, it just sort of doesn't. And that means we spend a lot of time craving and easily going after things we won't really like. And it means we don't have mechanisms except very kind of rational, you know, push ourselves. We don't have these kind of low grade craving mechanisms to go after things that really will benefit our happiness, but, but we don't realize we want them.

B (24:40)

How do we hijack that? Like, how do we trick ourselves into doing the thing that we don't think that we want to do, but we like doing and is good for us?

A (24:49)

Yeah, well, there's, you know, there's two ways to do it, you know, one is this very rational force yourself way, which, which I harness a lot, which is like, okay, even though I don't really feel like calling anyone right now, I know the science and if I talk to someone, I'll feel better. Right? You know, so you kind of the force yourself. But the force yourself approach works best if it's paired with the second practice, which is forcing yourself to notice what you like. Because the wanting system can update. It just doesn't do it naturally. But after a really hard yoga class or after calling that friend when you didn't feel like it, take time to notice, like, does this feel good? And you're like, yeah, this actually, this actually feels nice. I had this, you know, pre Covid when I was going to a yoga studio. This wonderful yoga instructor at, right at the end of a hard class would have you take this moment, like, okay, now take a moment to notice. Notice how you feel after this class, like, notice how this made you feel. And afterwards you're like, damn, that was great. Like, I want more of this feeling, you know?

B (25:45)

So when you pick the salad and stop pretending that Diet Coke is water and you go for the slowest, sweatiest shuffle around the block, but you do it, take a minute and absolutely relish how wonderful and brave and heroic your efforts were and how you feel, we deserve this.

A (26:01)

But we tend not to be present. We tend not to mindfully notice. And that's true for the stuff you really crave, but you might not, like, after you, like, you know, open the fridge four times and grab that thing to eat that you didn't really feel like, take a moment to be like, am I satisfied now? Not really. I want to grab something else. And once you notice that, your wanting system can be like, okay, kind of. Duly noted.

B (26:23)

Got it, got it.

A (26:24)

Let's take note of that for next time. So kind of forcing yourself to ignore your wanting system and just act through this very rational path, but then also mindfully noticing what you really like, those things can start to update your craving system at least a little bit. But the systems are always going to be disconnected, unfortunately. It's just our minds are not really designed that well for wanting all the things that we like.

B (26:49)

What about, like, our self image? How much does that play into our happiness? And how much does monitoring our likes and our social media and, you know, looking at pictures of our face through a distorted camera lens, how much is that affecting our happiness and how we see our lives?

A (27:06)

Yeah, well, one. One. Another dumb feature of the way our minds work when it comes to happiness is the fact that we don't necessarily think of the good things in our life in objective terms. We think of them in relative terms. And that means that seeing ourselves on social media, seeing what's going on with other people on social media, that can really affect our happiness in some dumb ways. Take your body image, for example, right? You know, you might objectively think you have a certain, you know, body that's good or not so good or whatever, but we don't necessarily think in terms of our objective sense. We think relative. And so as soon as you go on Instagram and you look at, you know, the bikini pictures of someone else, or take your objective sense of how good your vacation was or how rich you were or how nice your house is, then, you know, you watch the celebrity, you know, TikTok feeds, and you're like, oh, like, my house isn't that good, or my vacation sucked and things like that we're really susceptible to social comparison when it comes to evaluating anything in our life. Our abilities, our. Our amount of money, our salary, our house, whatever. And that means that we can easily start feeling bad even when we're in objectively a good situation. My favorite extreme example of this was a study that looked at the emotions of different Olympic medalists. So probably gold medalists. Probably feeling pretty happy. Like, you know, makes sense. They just won a gold medal. Yeah, but what about silver medalists? You know, maybe slightly less happy, but. But what researchers find is that if you look at the emotional expressions that silver medalists show on the stand, Oksana.

B (28:37)

Bayul has won the gold. And backstage, Nancy Kerrigan and Chen Liu exchange congratulations and consolations for silver and bronze.

A (28:47)

They're not just slightly less happy, they're actively feeling awful. They're showing signs of extreme sadness, contempt, anger. It's not just like, slightly less happy, it's actively negative.

B (28:59)

Wow.

A (29:00)

If you think about what I just said, it sort of makes sense, right? Because the silver medalist isn't thinking. I'm objectively the second best in the world. I objectively beat, like, the other 7 billion people, whatever my sport is. They're just thinking about one reference point that makes them feel awful. The gold. They were almost there and they didn't get it, so they feel like a loser. But what's striking is if you look at the bronze medalist, you see something completely different because their reference point isn't the gold, right? Like, they were, I don't know, like, you know, 30 seconds off or they, like, lost two matches or something. Their reference point is like, if I just messed up a little bit more, I would go home completely empty handed. Right? Like, I wouldn't even be on the stand at all. Right? And so they're showing signs of true ecstasy. In some cases, they're showing expressions that are even happier than the gold medalist because their reference point is like, phew, look how lucky I am. Like, I almost totally screwed up.

B (29:51)

So Nancy Kerrigan displayed a famously sour face receiving the silver in 1994. And then in 1995, a study was published in the Journal of Personal and Social Psychology titled quote, when less is more, counterfactual thinking and satisfaction among Olympic medalists. Counterfactual thinking, huh? What the fuck? That is the sinking, gnawing feeling of what could have been or, wow, I fudged it up. So one researcher, Dr. Andrea Lewengrath, a University of Iowa marketing assistant professor, did follow up studies on medalists to confirm that first study. And recently said in an interview that you don't have to be the second best out of 8 billion. There are always going to be people who we can compare ourselves to that are better, faster, smarter or whatever, and that can make us feel relatively bad. So what is the lesson here? Think twice before you get a no regrets tattoo and maybe consider a counter, your counterfactuals tattoo instead. And once the sting wears off, celebrate your silvers. You did it.

A (30:55)

And I love this metaphor because, you know, it shows us that it doesn't matter what's going on objectively. It matters who we're comparing ourself against. And that means sometimes we can be in objectively a really good spot but feel kind of awful about it.

B (31:09)

And what about chemicals? Where are just the chemical hands that we were dealt? When do those have the reins on the amount of happiness we feel?

A (31:20)

So, you know, we could think about the chemicals. We're dealt in a couple ways. Often we think about it in terms of, you know, our kind of genetic lottery. Right? You know, are you naturally a happy person or are you naturally a kind of down in the dumbs person? And just like circumstances, what we find is that there is a genetic component to happiness, you know, so there, you know, if you're born from a long line of overly optimistic people, you're more likely to be overly optimistic, but the amount of that heritability is tiny. What, you know, it's probably tinier than something like height or weight in the US and especially with like, weight, we know that that's something that obviously your environment can shape a lot. And so there, while there is some heritable component to happiness, it's much tinier than we think. And this is really good news, right? You know, it would suck if you're like, hey, you're just born to be happy or born to be not so happy. And that's it. What the science is really telling us is that there's some heritable component, but there's a lot of action that we can take through our mindsets, through our behaviors to change things around. And that's great because, you know, putting this all together, it means our genetics don't predict our happiness that much and our circumstances don't predict our happiness that much. Like, we don't, you know, necessarily get to control whether we're born into, you know, complete luxury or born into poverty. We don't necessarily get to control what our genetic heritage is, but we all can completely control our mindsets and our behavior. So it's good news. The Bad news is that changing those mindsets and behavior, as you probably guess, takes a lot of work.

B (32:45)

Yeah. Do you ever have students who either come to you or who you hear about who aren't quite sure if it's time for medical intervention or is it time for just trying to hack their habits? How do we as individuals make that call?

A (33:03)

Yeah, and I think I'm glad you brought this up because I think this is really important. You know, so many of the hacks, you know, we are talking about today are ones that really can improve your well being. But, you know, there's some points when you need to hack and there's some points where you need something that's much deeper. And the analogy I like to use is, you know, imagine you go into your doctor and you say, hey, doctor, I have high blood pressure. You know, what should I do? Your doctor might say, hey, you know, get on the treadmill and exercise a little bit more, you know, eat, you know, here, eat these fruits and vegetables every day or something. But if you walked into your doctor's office and you're saying, doctor, you know, I'm having chest pains, I'm having acute cardiac arrest right now, your doctor wouldn't be like, well, get on the treadmill, you know, like for a half hour day, like your doctor would, you know, an emergency intervention would take place. And I think it's worth recognizing that our mental health works the same way. The kinds of things I'm talking about are in some sense preventative medicine. You know, they're there so that you don't wind up in a state of kind of acutely feeling clinically depressed or suicidal or something worse. Right. You know, you. They're there so that you can protect your mental health so you don't get to that point. But if you're experiencing true depression, you know, hard for you to do, your daily activities or anxiety so powerful that you're experiencing panic attacks, that's a sign that you might need professional help. All the hacks I mentioned are good. You know, once you get out of that acute state, just like the heart attack person, as soon as you get out of experiencing cardiac arrest, the next step is going to be to go back to some of those preventative measures once you kind of get out of the hospital. And I think the same thing is true for clinical parts of these diseases. You might also want to go back to experiencing gratitude and meditating in these things. But it is important to get acute care if the mental health situation you're in is acute.

B (34:40)

Okay, that's great to know for people. You may know when you hit at this level because your friends will say, I think you should see a doctor, dude. Which is what happened to me when I was going through the hardest parts of my life and also had a couple medical conditions that turned my brain into bees. The doctor was like, well, shucks, you need more than a car wash. Let's check under the hood there, buddy. But yes, what is the technique for sloughing off persistent, crusty, muddy feelings when it comes to things like gratitude and meditation? How much is effective? Like, how much can we get away with if we're feeling real down in the dumps, but we're low on motivation? How much gratitude is enough? How much meditation is enough? How much exercise is enough?

A (35:18)

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, one of the nice things about this being, all of this stuff being evidence based is that it allows you to kind of do your own experimentation, right? The answer of how much meditation you, you know, particular podcast listener need might depend on all kinds of things, right? And so the key is to sort of try it out. One thing we know though, is that sometimes it takes less than you really expect. Take something like gratitude. There's evidence that just scribbling down three things that you're grateful for every day that can be enough to significantly boost your wellbeing in as little as two weeks. Like, doesn't take that much time. There's evidence, for example, from Hedy Kober's lab at Yale that even as little as 10 minutes of meditation a day can really start to improve your well being and some mental health symptoms. Right.

B (36:01)

For more on this, feel free to peruse papers such as Brief Mindfulness Meditation Improves Attention in Novices and Let It Be Mindful Acceptance Down Regulates Pain and Negative Emotion, both published by Dr. Hedy Kober. So scientists in lab coats have dedicated their research and their grant money budgets to proving that yes, meditation does help. It's free. It takes less time than making a sandwich. We can do this. Let's do this.

A (36:29)

And so it doesn't take long. What it takes is some consistency. And so my instinct is like, because sometimes we hear these tips, we're like, all right, going to drop everything and do, you know, like 70 hours of meditation. It's like, no, no, no, just start really small. Allow yourself to do these baby steps and test it out. How are you feeling? Are you feeling better? Is it making, is it making things better? Is it making things worse? And so allowing ourselves the self compassion to engage in these baby steps, I think Is really important.

B (36:57)

I think that's so true. Whenever I get out of the habit of running, which is now, I'll go do a lap at the reservoir, But I'll have to just tell myself the first couple times I do it, the first month even, as long as I just get around the reservoir, even crawling is fine. You know, like expecting yourself to get back into running at a certain pace or doing things, you know, whole hog can be so intimidating. You just want to give up right away.

A (37:24)

Yeah. And I think, you know, we're not good at understanding the amount of self compassion we need to motivate ourselves. I think, again, this is a spot where I think our minds get it wrong. We think the right way to motivate ourselves is to become these horrid drill instructors and like, yell at ourselves in our head in a way that we'd never speak to a friend or a child or someone we cared about. Hopefully. Right. But that kind of just doesn't work. That convinces us that it's not good to try. We end up setting our standards lower. We end up procrastinating more self compassion, it turns out, can actually allow you to engage in new habits better and more effectively and with less procrastination. That's not our theory. We like, go for the drill sergeant approach, but we'd be better off kind of of, you know, mindfully paying attention to what's going on and recognizing that we're just human and giving ourselves a little bit more of a benefit of a doubt.

B (38:10)

Yeah. Like, I never want to obey a dick who's yelling at me, so why do I do that to myself? Right?

A (38:17)

And we're like, you know, the dickiest of dicks is often the person in our head. Right. You know, it's like, wait, I would never say, you know, that thing I just said to myself in my head? I would never say that to another human. Why am I talking to myself that way?

B (38:29)

Yeah, yeah, I would. I would want to slap my own self for saying that to me. You know, like I'm. Yeah, I'm the. The hardest on myself more than I would ever tolerate in somebody else. Which is so funny that we do that. But, you know, you mentioned the term positive psychology before, and I'm so curious about that because I feel like I can't tell if it's flimflam or not. That positive psychology is totally like a legit practice. Or is it something along the lines of, like, toxic positivity at all costs? What is positive psychology? What do scientists think of it?

A (39:03)

Yeah, I mean, the term positive psychology began when scientist Marley Seligman, who kind of invented the field or the founder of the field, really had this intuition that so much of psychology is about what he called kind of below baseline. Right. Like, I'm trying to cure depression, I'm trying to cure anxiety or something like that. But he realized that we didn't have, as he called it, a good science of kind of going above baseline. You know, there's baseline and then there's feeling like you're flourishing. You know, then there's getting social connection in life, feeling really present, experiencing joy. And so he really christened this name of this field positive psychology, in order to focus on those things. But I think positive psychology gets the wrong rap. I think there's this idea that, like, well, you have to only be positive. But, you know, if you look at what this research is really showing, there's a lot of evidence that a real, true happy life, a successful life at a healthy life, involves experiencing negative emotions, allowing those. Not running away from them. There's, you know, lots of evidence suggesting that there are different techniques you can use to navigate those emotions and sort of feel them without getting, like, destroyed by them. And so I think, you know, when you hear these terms, positive psychology, positivity, they can kind of feel a little cheesy and get a bad rap that it's like positive, positive, positive all the time. But. But that's not really. When you dig into the field, what it's showing. My sense is that. That the whole goal is to get to this idea of eudaimonia, this rich, meaningful life. And you do that not through putting blinders on and being a Pollyanna and trying only to experience happy, happy, happy, no matter what. You do that by having a full life, which is rich with lots of emotions and experiences.

B (40:40)

Yeah, that's such a good point about letting yourself feel those negative emotions but not necessarily succumbing to them, not letting them win all the time.

A (40:52)

Yeah, and I think we, you know, we get that wrong. Like, I think our instinct, again, is this idea that, well, there's some negative emotion. I should run away from that. Or the right move would be to sort of suppress it, you know, stiff upper lip. But there's evidence from James Gross at Stanford that the act of suppressing our emotions can lead to things like increased cardiac stress or even can cause us to have some problems with memory and decision making. You do worse on a memory test when you're trying to suppress some negative emotion. So it has negative costs where we're much better off if we can find ways to regulate and allow those emotions, right, to experience them, give them some time, and then be self compassionate and nurture ourselves through them.

B (41:34)

Are there any myths about happiness that you find yourself constantly having to bust all the time?

A (41:38)

I mean, you know, as we've been talking about, like our minds lie to us all the time about this stuff. I mean, the biggest one, the one that my students fall prey to so much, is that happiness is about circumstances. You know, that happiness is about money in particular. My Yale students were all thinking about what job they want to get when they get out of this Ivy League university and what salary they're going to get and things. You tell them that after a certain reasonable middle class income, money doesn't matter for happiness anymore and they want to fight you on it. They're like, well, what if I spent it differently? Or what if I went on vacation to these places over and over again? You're like, nope, doesn't count. Or at the very least, it's not so much that money doesn't matter for happiness. It's just there are so many other things you could focus on that matter much, much more. Maybe, yeah, if you go up like that miniscule amount, if you put all this work in and all this time in to earn more, maybe you get a teeny bump. Maybe, maybe not. But if you just wrote down three things you're grateful for, that would work way more effectively. We know that empirically.

B (42:33)

Is there a test where people can go, figure out how happy am I?

A (42:37)

Yeah, there's also different spots online where you can do that. In fact, Marty Seligman, who we mentioned this, founder of Positive Psychology, has a website called Authentic Happiness if you kind of Google the Authentic Happiness test.

B (42:49)

So yes, I checked this out. And if you Google authentic happiness, you can help fellow Eudaimonologists by taking scored questionnaires. They have Authentic Happiness Inventory, the General Happiness Scale, Positive and Negative Effect Questionnaire, the four Dice Emotions Questionnaire. I myself opted for the classic the Authentic Happiness Inventory. And on a scale of one to five, Jarrett, what do you think? I got three. You know, me too. Did I? Yeah. 3.08. So maybe I'll meditate a bunch and then I'll take it in a few months. Also, I have no idea what all those different tests do, but I'm sure that the scientists know and that's all that matters.

A (43:30)

You know, you don't need a fancy test. It's really kind of all things considered. How happy are you with your life. I mean, this is the beauty. There's not for better or for worse, there's not a thermometer that we can use for happiness as scientists where we put it in like, boop, you're at 98.6, you know, happy. You just have to answer it for yourself. And that kind of feels a little bit not as legit scientifically, but in practice, that's what we're really trying to get at. We're trying to get at your own perception of how things are going. And if things are going well, then they're going well.

B (44:01)

Can I ask you some listener questions?

A (44:03)

Sure.

B (44:04)

But before that, let's aim a money cannon at a worthy cause. This week, Dr. Santos chose DonorsChoose.org, which lets teachers list their classroom needs. And then regular jabronis like you and me can make their dreams come true. So DonorsChoose has fulfilled 1.7 million classroom projects, from butterfly cocoons to robotics kits to pencils and paper and books with diverse characters. Okay, so modern day Ally here saying that when this first aired, we funded a few classrooms and this time around, we picked a few new ones to fund. Mrs. Alvarado's classroom at Maine's elementary school in Calexico, California, needed funding to purchase some reading comprehension passages to motivate students to read and read right. She also needed new chairs for the classroom for which apparently the United States does not have enough money. So teachers have to buy these things. So happy to find that for Mrs. Alvarado. Another classroom project funded was Mrs. Myers at Thurgood Marshall Elementary School in Morrow, Georgia, who says that research has shown that hunger has a variety of detrimental effects on kids and that some of her students come from less fortunate homes and require additional resources and support. We also tossed in a donation to Mrs. Perez Copperfield elementary School in Converse, Texas, for snacks for her students that may have financial barriers that limit their access to food. And the snacks will provide them with brain power to focus while also removing the social stigma of going without a snack during the day. So thanks for Dr. Santos for the heads up on donorschoose.org and to sponsors who made this round of donations possible. Okay, you know, sometimes you eat something and you're like, ah, feel so much better. And other times you eat a meal and you're like, I wanna go nap on the couch and I can't remember my own name or I need 10 desserts right now. That could be your glucose tox. Shocking. My glucose is very loud. My insulin floods in response to sugar. And then it crashes and I feel like garbage. But introducing Lingo. This is a bio wearable. It's from Abbott and it tracks your glucose levels in real time. And then on an app it gives you insights into how high they went, how much they crashed, how well managed your glucose is throughout the day. So I tried Lingo. I have it on my arm right now and it's awesome. For me, I know that my blood sugar greatly impacts my life and I can look at that and see the data. I love that Lingo has science backed recommendations to eat in a way that works better for you personally. So to see how your body responds to food and learn what you can do to improve your metabolism, try Lingo. It starts at $49 for a two week plan, no prescription needed. And for a limited time you can save 10% on your first order with the code ollie@hello lingo.com the Lingo Glucose system is for users 18 years and older, not on insulin. It's not intended for diagnoses of diseases, including diabetes. For more information please visit helingo.com I pride myself on being the friend that people text links to and they go is this real? And I go no. And I'm proud of that skepticism. And it's also helpful when it comes to health hacks. I can spot a too good to be true health hack from a mile away. So can you. You Ritual knows that every good skeptic deserves a multivitamin that exceeds our standards. They have a clinically backed essential for women 18 + multivitamin. It has high quality traceable key ingredients. I love that. Ritual multivitamins are vegan, they're gluten and major allergen free. Also, Ritual is a certified B Corp and a female founded B Corp. They hold themselves accountable to finances, but also the health of people, people and our planet. I have a checklist every morning of things that I do. One of them is sit down with a cup of tea and schedule out my day. Another is honestly taking supplements because I find that my energy and my mood is better when I do personally. And Ritual is the one that I take. They also have a nice minty flavor and the capsules look like lava lamps. I appreciate that as well. No more shady business rituals. Essential for women 18+ is a multivitamin you can actually trust. And you can get 25 off your first first month at ritual.com ologies so start Ritual or add Essential for Women 18 to your subscription today. That's ritual.com ologies for 25% off down the hatch.

A (48:09)

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B (48:41)

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A (48:58)

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B (49:43)

Happy to ask your questions for Dr. Santos. Okay, Ariel Reagan wants to know, do animals experience happiness? Are they happier than people?

A (49:52)

Yeah, it's really hard to ask animals about their happiness because, you know, I can do the self report measure with you. It's harder to do that with a banana slug or a bonobo or something. Physiologically, we know they go through a lot of the same states as humans, but it's hard to know for sure if those physiological states correlate with this subjective state. I only know that you have the subjective state because you tell me. And so even though everything we can can objectively look at, like suggest that it, you know, we're feeling the same thing subjectively, it's really hard to know for sure.

B (50:23)

So one thing some scientists try to observe is play behavior like hopping around and running, chewing on stuff. My tiny poodle angel, she rubs her butt against stuff like a tire or my shoe. That's her version of typing. Hashtag blessed. Courtney Graziano wants to know, can anxious people be happy?

A (50:41)

I think Anxious people can definitely be happy. I think there are a lot of strategies we can use to regulate and allow our anxiety. I think part of the problem with anxiety is that we try to run away from it, that we like, you know, try to avoid it at all costs. But that's yet another emotion that I think we can kind of sit with, like feeling really anxious right now. It's an 8 out of 10. You can sort of surf that anxiety urge and get to the other side and then do some work to sort of nurture yourself. So I think you can be anxious and happy just like you can be sad and happy and you can be angry and happy. You know, to have a truly happy life requires experiencing all those emotions but finding ways to kind of navigate them so they don't take over.

B (51:20)

Oh, that's really well said. Aiden Patko and Meg G. Want to know, is it flim flam that smiling actually makes you happier or is that a true fact? Meg says and laughing and a lot of other folks looking at you patrons say see demos 101. Alexis Wallach and Ashley Herbol wanna know, can you fake it till you make it?

A (51:41)

There's a lot of feedback that we get from other people's emotions from like our own feedback from our own like actions, you know, so pretending you're happy, acting like you're happy can often put you in a happy state in part because it puts the people around you in a happy state. And we know that there's a lot of evidence for what's called emotional contagion, right? Just like, like if I'm around happy people, I'm just going to catch the emotions of that happy person. And the reverse, right? If I'm around those negative Nellies, like that's going to, I'm going to catch that too. And so there is a kind of fake it till you make it. There's associate with the people who have the emotions that you want to experience. It's a powerful way to kind of use your situation, your social environment to build in well being.

B (52:25)

Is there anything you can do for a friend who is feeling really unhappy to help them out as well?

A (52:34)

Yeah, I think, you know, the way to do it, I think really is to try to bring some of these practices in naturally, right. I mean, first of all, give that friend some social connection, right? Just the very act of you talking to them, being around them, spending time with them is gonna improve their well being. I think you can also bring your attitudes that are positive, Right. You know, if you're expressing things that you're grateful for. If you're savoring things and feeling a little bit present, you know that that kind of thing is naturally going to rub off on them because of emotional contagion, because of behavioral contagion. But the biggest thing you can do is I think, check in. You know, check in and allow yourself to be present and be there for someone who needs you. Really powerful way to use your happiness to positively affect others.

B (53:16)

So if you ever think, why would I check up on someone? I don't know how to fix things, don't worry, just be alive and in their orbit and listen. Or tell them about how lizards have to dicks. That's what I do. Patrick Javaroni says first time question asker wants to know happiness and the microbiome connection. What can we do to improve our microbiome? Is there a connection? What's the deal?

A (53:38)

Yeah, great, great question. And it's something that we don't have that much good data on yet. You know, everything we know suggests that microbiome affects all kinds of stuff. It would be surprising I think in some ways if it didn't affect our well being and our happiness. But you know, this is just a new area of work where we're learning new things all the time and we don't really have a great verdict yet. But you know, if you want to throw research money onto something that I think will be really telling in the next 10 years of happiness science, I think microbiome might be a spot to do that.

B (54:09)

Nice. You can just get in on poop on the ground floor. Let's drive this thing to the top.

A (54:14)

Poop samples from very happy people. I'm in.

B (54:17)

I think that you literally can buy, buy poop like on the black market for your own at home, like fecal transplants. P.S. of course I looked this up and getting an enema with someone else's poop. It's called fecal microbiota transplantation. And in the Microbiology Gut Biome episode from November 2018, we go into detail about how our microbiomes are suffering from processed foods and artificial ingredients and overuse of antibiotics for things like viral infections that don't need antibiotics. So given that up to 90% of our serotonin is synthesized in our simmering poo filled guts. DIY FMTs. Do it yourself. Fecal microbiota transplantations as they're called, they're getting more and more common as doctors are still reluctant to shove poo up our butts even when we ask nicely. So according to An American Journal of Gastroenterology article called Understanding the Scope of do it Yourself fecal microbiota transplant. 82% of folks who tried it felt better afterwards. And 92% of those knew their stool donor. Who? I don't know. I guess you find by asking your friends, who seems chill and has good poops. So you can ask a doctor to screen a donor sample and see if they'll do it. Otherwise, there's plenty of instructions on the Internet. Apparently you buy a blender at Goodwill or something and then, then you maybe burn it later. None of this is my beeswax. Ask your doctors, don't sue me or make me a smoothie later. I'm good. Rahala wants to know, first time question asker, is there any truth to the notion that people who are generally happy tend to live longer? And I wanna say my dad has cancer and his oncologists were saying just positivity is really helpful for patients in general. Okay, 2024. Allie here. And my dad did pass away in the summer of 2022. And I talk about hospice tips and getting through grief in an episod. 2022. We'll link that in the show notes for anyone who's going through something similar. But I will say that my dad outlived his prognosis by eight years and he stayed absolutely boldly optimistic throughout all of his treatment. And we all tried to buoy his spirits in that direction. Do we find that statistically sound?

A (56:29)

Yeah, I mean, there's actually some strong evidence that happiness seems to affect our longevity in super interesting ways. One of the most famous studies on this looks at a group of individuals that had really similar lifestyles. Because if you think about it, this is a hard study to do, right? We want to ask, like, are happier people living longer? But of course, there's lots of things that affect whether you live longer. And so the researchers tried to find a population that had, like, reasonably low risk factors and a really similar lifestyle, and they hit upon studying nuns. The way they did this was that they went back to nuns journals that they had in their 20s. I guess nuns, at least in one of these convents, kind of did some journaling when they first joined the nunnery. So you go back when the nuns are in their 20s and you look at their journals and you do like a text analysis. Like, you know, you run the text of their journals through something that pulls out all the happy words and pulls out all the kind of negative words or just like any emotion words whatsoever. And then you use those textual analyses to predict how many of the nuns live into their 80s and 90s. And what you find is that the happier nuns are just living surprisingly longer, you know, in some cases, like, decades longer than the nuns on average, who are just sadder, which is really quite striking. It suggests that happiness. Right. Might really be affecting life, like how long we live. So, yeah, important. Important to focus on. Not just because happiness feels good, but it might make you live longer, too.

B (57:51)

Patron Annika Callan asked, why are feelings of happiness stronger when you're younger? And RL Shaul Peleg Paige and RJ Doidge wanted to know if happier people tend to be of a certain gender or age. RJ Wants to make sure they don't become a grumpy crank who hates everyone. Yeah. I wonder, do we find that people get happier as they age or crankier as they age?

A (58:14)

Yeah, on average, the data really suggests happier. There's some interesting, like, lifespan work on happiness. You know, you're kind of happy when you're young, and then as you become like, an adult in middle age, especially after you have children, in fact, you know, happiness tends to dip, but then as soon as you kind of go back to empty nesting, you know, and the kids go off to college, then the slope of happiness kind of goes back up. And so it's something to look forward to as you age. On average, older people tend to be happier.

B (58:41)

Ow. You know, I wasn't sure about that. And kids. And I hadn't thought to ask that, but I have friends who have kids. I have friends who don't have kids. I myself have a daughter. She's a dog. And that's. She's probably the only kid I'm gonna have, and she's an animal. But I don't know, like, in general, is that the case? It's just the stress of having kids, but then the satisfaction that you did it later. So it's kind of like a. Yeah.

A (59:09)

I think this is one of the spots where those two constructs of happiness can be so powerful. The sort of happiness in your life and happiness with your life. Lots of evidence that kids kind of boost the happiness with your life. You know, you get the sense of meaning and so on. But if you look at people's time budgets in terms of what they spend their time on, the thing that often feels the most miserable is spending time with your kids, like, in your life, you know, when you're picking up, you know, the toys and dealing with the dirty diapers and things. Things. That is the thing that people Seem to, on average, enjoy kind of the least. No offense. It ranks up there with, like, commuting and like, shopping for groceries. You know, not like a heavy endorsement, but that's kind of complicated. I think that's one of these reasons that, you know, these constructs are kind of helpful. There. There are certain things that you do for meaning that in the moment don't feel great, but they wind up giving you meaning. And I think the tips are powerful too, because they're hacks you can do do to enjoy your time more with your kids. Right. If you have strategies for managing stress and negative emotions that can probably make your time with your kids even happier.

B (60:08)

Yeah, I'm so in awe of people who do have kids just because it. It seems so challenging. And I know myself, I'm like, so scatterbrained that I feel like I just don't necessarily feel like that would be my strong suit. But there are some people who love kiteboarding and others who are like, no, thank you. Like, I would rather be on the beach reading a book. So it really depends on what you.

A (60:26)

Like, you know, And I think you're doing it right because there's a lot of evidence that the furry babies, especially dogs, there's more research on dogs, really do have a significant effect on happiness. But again, that research is interesting because it's not the dogs per se. It's kind of the benefits that we get from dogs. So dogs get us out exercising dogs allow us to make more social connections. They are a social connection, but then they also let us socially connect with people. They make us more present. You know, when you're with your dog and you know you're playing fetch with your dog, it's hard to, to like, be distracted or checking your email. Right. And so it seems like dogs don't necessarily inherently make us happier, but they make us do a lot of the practices I've mentioned that lead to higher happiness.

B (61:08)

First time question asker Alana Rickman asks, has the rapid development in technology in the last few years had an overall increase or decrease in people's happiness? And patrons, Diana Ash Gelhouse, Jenna Mandola, Lucas O'Neill, Neil, Nicole Kleinman all echoed that. And yeah, I wonder too, in terms of being in the moment, being on our phone, does that take us out of the moment? Is that take us into kind of another, like, universe or galaxy of what's happening in this digital realm versus what's happening around us?

A (61:43)

Yeah, I mean, when you think about technology, it's worth remembering we can do technology for we can use technology for all kinds of things, right? You know, we could use technology to scribble in a gratitude journal, or I could pick up a phone and call my mom, right? Have a social connection. Often we're not using our technology in ways that boost happiness. We could, but often we're checking social media, you know, getting this sort of NutraSweet social connection, but not real stuff. I'm, you know, distracted and not paying attention to the real things in life. I could be present, looking at the trees or talking to the people around me, but, you know, I'm scrolling through, you know, some dumb thing on the Internet. And so it's not that technology in and of itself is bad. It's just that the way we. We use it often is bad, and it's kind of built to make it harder for us to use it. Well, you know, every app is, in some ways, competing for your attention, right? They want to notify you of stuff and have the dings that sort of give you a little burst of reward every time you get some new piece of information. And that means that our apps and our technology is kind of constantly competing with real life, you know, for our attention. Sadly, I think there's domains in which the technology is sort of winning, you know, which. Which makes sense. You know, at my podcast, I talked to the University of British Columbia researcher Liz Dunn, and she had this lovely quote where she's like, you know, imagine if to your next, you know, like, dinner date with your husband. Like, you took a big wheelbarrow, and in the wheelbarrow, it was, you know, DVDs of every movie you've ever seen. You know, a big pile of CDs of every song in the universe. Like, printouts of every family reunion ever. Like, you know, printouts of all your emails. Like, you know, big piles of porn, right? Like, you know, if there was a wheelbarrow with all that stuff next to you, you'd be distracted. You'd want to be going through it the whole dinner, right? Be like, oh, let me go back to my family reunion. Da, da, da. But, like, what she says is, like, your brain isn't stupid. Like, your brain knows that on the other side of your iPhone is all that stuff. So there's something constantly in your brain that has to be like, no, no, no, no. Pay attention to this conversation. Because, you know, don't check your email. Don't check your email. And that kind of is constantly a little bit depleting. It's definite, but it's a little bit depleting. As well.

B (63:53)

Just this weird wheelbarrow.

A (63:57)

I mean, when you think about what's on the other, you know, like weather predictions, you know, like printouts of weather predictions. Oh, every TikTok video in the history of the Internet. Right. I mean, it's a huge, huge slot machine. And sadly, you know, I mean, I love my husband, we have some great conversations, but is every conversation with my husband more interesting than literally everything on the Internet? Like, you know, not necessarily. And what that means is we're so tempted by that stuff over in real life social connection, even though we know that the in real life stuff is going to make us so much happier.

B (64:30)

Yeah, that's such a good way to look at it is to understand just what our brain is sort of grappling with, why it's difficult. It's not like a personal failing that we sometimes look to that. But. But yeah, I definitely find that when I'm looking for something to sort of boost my dopamine or happiness, I'll go to my photo and then I'll. After an hour I'll go, like. I don't think that really did the trick. If I had practiced some things I knew might be longer lasting, but at least I can't blame myself for why I was looking. Anthony had a great question asked. What if certain aspects of your happiness or the pursuit of your happiness cause others you care about to be unhappy, thereby making you unhappy? What about those circumstances where you're worried that your happiness might make other people dislike like you?

A (65:17)

Yeah, well, I think again, you know, if we're really going for true happiness, my guess is that those cases are occurring probably less often than you think. And by that I mean what? You know, the real happiness seems to come from doing acts of kindness for other people. Real happiness seems to come from focusing on the happiness of others. Right. You know, so already, you know, we're kind of in a bind of like, well, if other people aren't happy, then that's probably gonna mean we're not happy. Right. As we've talked about, happiness doesn't seem to come from our circumstances. So it's not like we're trying to beat other people or go after these accolades. Right. Happiness comes from being grateful and present from what you have. And so my guess is that more often than not, if you're pursuing happiness correctly. Right. You know, based on what the science suggests, you're just not going to run into situations where you're sort of competing or hurting other people's happiness because other people's happiness is part and parcel of getting true happiness.

B (66:12)

And if you're worried someone in your life will be upset at your happiness, just know it's your life and it's okay to feel good. If anyone has a problem with it, that is their own baggage to address. I highly suggest some of Melanie Beatty's writings about codependency. I'm just gonna leave that suggestion right there for you. Ben dewurst says, I'm just finishing up my mba, and in one of my classes, they talked about how optimism is actually an attribute of emotional intelligence and can be learned. As an optimist myself, I'd always considered it more of a part of my personality, like extrovert or introverted and unteach. So how would someone go about learning and training to be an optimist? And what's the relationship there? Also, is there a relationship between happiness and emotional or just like, IQ intelligence? I feel like there's some badge of, like, if you're unhappy, it must mean that you know more and therefore you're smarter.

A (67:04)

That's interesting. I don't. I don't know of any data that have looked specifically at IQ and happiness. My guess is there's probably not the relationship that you're looking at, but there is definitely a relationship between happiness and optimism. Obviously, I think sort of optimism is sort of part of our general happy life. And the good news, according to based on this question, is, like, you can, in fact learn these kinds of things. You know, the fastest thing to do is really try to just train your brain to pay attention to good things out there. Our minds are naturally tuned to negative things. You know, the yucky stuff out there, the griping. But we can tune our minds towards positive things. You can focus on what you're grateful for. Another practice that I've been into lately, which I talk about on the podcast, is focusing on delights. Sometimes gratitude. Gratitude can feel sort of cheesy, but you can just focus on, like, things that are delightful out there. You know, like, you know, the sunshine, like, that's delightful. The fact that coffee exists, that's delightful. You know, I don't know, some funny video on the Internet, that's delightful, right? Like training your brain towards things that you really enjoy. That kind of cause delight.

B (68:05)

Okay, so if the term gratitude journaling conjures up visions of sickly sweetened chamomile tea, just opt for the terms delights, which is just like a straightforward, good cup of coffee, actually. For years, my husband Jarrett has cited a short tally of favorite things. His are lavender Soap, coffee, and sandwiches. And he says just thinking of those three things and letting his mind wander to more helped him during a really deep depression. So gratitude, journaling, delights, whatever you want to call it. Jarrett calls his his do not kill yourself list, which is kind of like the Miami Cola bang energy drink of a gratitude practice branding. Would you agree that's my favorite bang flavor? Is it really Miami Cola that's on the list?

A (68:55)

Again, your brain is gonna focus on whatever you give it data for. So if you give it data about things that you're feeling really grateful about or that are really delightful, that's what your brain's gonna start noticing.

B (69:06)

I love that you just are. You're constantly filling evidence folders for, for, like, things are shitty and things are good. It's like, what are you putting in your evidence folder? Pretty much.

A (69:15)

And it's not just like, you know what you're picking, it's like you're training your brain to look for that stuff. In my podcast, I interview this fantastic guest, Ross Gay, who's a poet and an essayist who has this book called the Book of Delights. And he decided that for every day for a year after his birthday, he would write an essay about something that delighted him. And he talks about how at first he was like, really worried, like, am I really gonna find things that really delight me? And he said that even just a week in, he'd kind of tuned his mind to find these things. As a walking down the street, he'd be like, oh, that dude's T shirt is delightful. Like, oh, that cat on the street is delightful. He just kind of shifted his perception and tuned his mind more towards the good things than the bad things. Our brains evolutionarily are naturally tuned towards the bad things. Makes sense. You want to see the tiger that's going to jump out at you, but we can control that tuning and just by taking some explicit work to pay attention to the things we're grateful for, to the things that delight us, to the good stuff out there.

B (70:15)

So, yes, Ross Gay, the Book of Delights. And again, check out Neil Pazrich's work and his awesome Ology episode. Another fun project. Start a private Twitter just for yourself and chronicle delights of your own or a private Instagram account or something. Also, I should note that in recording this episode, the Internet dropped out a few times. So I had to email Dr. Santos a new link during it and she has an auto reply message explaining that she may not write back. And it explains that she gets more than 100 emails a day. And it reads in part quote, keeping up with that many questions requests meant that I was hurting my own time, affluence and having less time for the important projects I really should be prioritizing. And so I am currently trying my own personal well being experiment. I'm going to try to practice what I preach and reduce the amount of time I usually spend on email. Thanks for your understanding as I try not to over commit and protect myself from burning out. Oh, I love her. Totally solid. Major props for walking her talk. She is the best and in respecting her time we wrapped it up. Last listener question. I saved it because it was juicy. Oh, it's so juicy. Bailey Ricketts wants to know how do we find a balance between being happy and living in the moment while acknowledging all the hurt and suffering going on in the world world Essentially guilt over being happy. When you know that there's a lot of bad shit out there, how do we do it?

A (71:34)

Yeah, yeah, tough. I mean, this is like a really real one, right? Because there's a lot of bad stuff out there right now. You know, structural racism, horrible global pandemic. You know, like the list goes on. So I mean, I think one thing that helps me is recognizing that if I want to be the kind of person who's an ally for all that stuff, all the yucky stuff in the world, who wants to have the resilience to fix, fix it, I'm not going to be able to do that if I'm incredibly anxious and overwhelmed and burnt out. I'm going to be able to do that best if I'm really in a happy state, if I'm really kind of feeling good, like if I kind of have put my own oxygen mask on first. Right? And in fact there's evidence that so many of the things we were talking about that are parts of a happy life. Help for doing hard things. My favorite one is that people who are grateful are better at what's called self regulation. They're better at doing the hard thing today to help their future self. Whether that's saving for retirement or eating healthier or, you know, putting work into hard, scary problems like that just require a lot of hard, scary work. And so for me, it's made me feel like if I want the world to be a better place, I can't afford to be down in the dumps, you know, freaking out about it. I really need to put energy into doing these practices for myself so that I'll be, you know, hopefully one of the people that has the bandwidth to help with some of this stuff. So far from feeling guilty, I feel like we might want to feel guilty for the opposite thing. Right. You know, do what we can to kind of fix things. It really does require. Require not just working on these structures, but working on our emotions so that we have the bandwidth to fix those structures that might be messed up.

B (73:07)

Oh, that just, I'm sure, gave so many people permission to pursue happiness who feel maybe guilty about it. And by so many people, I mean me specifically, but no, that's really helpful. Last two questions I asked before we go. Worst thing about your job, Worst thing about being a model of dollars.

A (73:27)

And the best thing, there's lots and lots of good things. But if I have to shift towards negativity, I would say the hardest thing is that one of the things I really try to pay attention to is this phenomenon of time affluence, this subjective sense that I have a lot of free time. And being a happiness guru, especially in an age where there's a lot of bad stuff going on in global pandemic, it keeps me pretty busy because a lot of people want advice, a lot of people want help, and that means I have to put a lot of work in to protect my time. So the hardest thing is protecting my time in the midst of everything else going on.

B (74:06)

I can totally understand that. I just got your auto reply that was like, yo, I get like 100 emails a day. Thank you so much. But I gotta stick to my principles here.

A (74:16)

And that's hard, right? Because, you know, I get into my inbox, I'm like, oh, that listener has this really cool thing to say, or that student has this really cool question. But I also know that if I answer all those, that means I'm not spending time with the people I care about and I'm not just having time to meditate and exercise. So it's hard prioritizing the right stuff. But time affluence is definitely something I need to work on prioritizing.

B (74:36)

I've never heard those words before, but I love them. Best thing about your job? Best thing about your career.

A (74:44)

Oh, man, there's so many best things. I mean, I honestly think the best things are my students. I love them so much. I love interacting with them. They teach me so much and I'm so privileged to get to work with them.

B (74:54)

That's great. I'm. I am so happy to talk to you. I have been a fan girl for years. So ask smart people happy questions or bummer questions. They are wonderful and they're great at sharing their knowledge obviously. Get more of Dr. Laurie Santos with her podcast the Happiness Lab. Her socials are linked in the show notes. She is great. If you can take her course, take it. It's also available on Coursera for free so look for that. I will link all of those on my website too which is@alieward.com ologies we are @alieward with 1L on Twitter and Instagram. We're also logies on Instagram and Twitter. Find us there. Be our friends. Thank you to Erin Talbert who moderates and admins the Ologies Podcast Facebook group and is excellent at that. Also now we have smologies episodes up in their own feed. Just look for smallogies wherever you get podcasts and subscribe and spread the word. You'll find this new green logo and smologies are all swear free. They're safe for all ages. It's S M O L O G I E S for your small ones. Thank you. Emily White of the Wordery. She is a professional transcriptionist who makes transcriptions available. She's great. Hire her. She's wonderful. Kayla Patton bleeps our episodes. Those are available on our website for free. The link is in the show. Note. We also have smallogies which are episodes we put out once every two weeks. They are cut down version versions of classic ones that have already ran. They are cleaned up and kid friendly. They're ready for the classroom. So look for smallogies too if you have smallogites. Thank you to Noelle Dilworth and Susan Hale for helping me take care of all the Ologies business behind the scenes. Thank you to Steven Ray Morris and Zeke Rodriguez Thomas who are also working on smologies. And wonderful thank you to editor Jared Sleeper and also thank you to Gremi. We are actually recording this in the car as I'm on my way up to see my pop for his birthday and I recorded this at 5 in the morning this morning before I hit the road and then I realized that my mic gain was all the way down so I had to re record it on the side of the road which is what we're doing. That's one secret of the episode. The other secret is you know how sometimes it'll be like if you need to clean a screen, just use a microfiber cloth and you're like yeah, well what do I use to clean it with though? Like Windex? What are we talking here? Water? What do I use with the microfiber cloth? So I just tried just the microfiber cloth like you're supposed to use. And it cleaned the out of my laptop. Like my monitor's never been so clean. All I did was use one of those microfiber too soft on your hands cloths. And apparently they're good at what they're supposed to be used for, so go figure. Okay, bye. Bye. Pachydermatology, Homeology Cryptozoology Lithology Nanotechnology Meteorology Olfactology Mapology Serology Seminology this is a sound of my dog drinking water in the car. Okay, 2024 me. Thank you for listening. Back next week with a very fresh new episode about something in your bed. Trust me, it's good. Okay, bye. Bye. For real did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, Sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com podcast.

A (78:47)

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B (79:07)

No purchase necessary for it.

A (79:09)

We're prohibited by law. Visit sling.com for more details.