Fromology (CHEESE) Part 2 with Kyra James

Summary

Ologies with Alie Ward
Episode: Fromology (CHEESE) Part 2 with Kyra James
Release Date: July 16, 2025

In this captivating second installment of the Fromology series, host Alie Ward delves deeper into the rich and varied world of cheese alongside guest Kyra James, a certified cheese professional and pharmacologist. This episode, released on July 16, 2025, addresses an array of listener questions, offering insightful discussions on everything from illegal cheeses to the intricacies of vegan cheese alternatives.

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1. Introduction to Cheese Mysteries

Alie opens the episode by reminding listeners of the importance of tuning into Part One for foundational knowledge about cheese. She sets the stage for a session filled with listener inquiries and fascinating cheese facts, preparing the audience for an engaging exploration of cheese-related topics.

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2. Illegal and Exotic Cheeses

Listener Question: Roni from LA inquires about cheeses that contain bugs.

Kaira James explains,

“Maggot cheese is called katsu marzu. It means putrid cheese. And it's illegal” ([05:05]).

Katsu Marzu, originating from Sardinia, involves introducing specific flies whose larvae consume the cheese, creating a unique texture and flavor. Although illegal, traditional methods persist, and consuming the live larvae can pose health risks, including intestinal issues.

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3. The Science Behind Swiss Cheese Holes

Listener Question: Jacob from Colorado asks, “how does Swiss cheese get its holes? Like girl, is it breathing?” ([09:46]).

Kaira James clarifies,

“They're actually called eyes and they're basically traps of gas. So during the fermentation process... that creates the holes inside the cheese” ([09:47]).

The formation of holes, or "eyes," in Swiss cheese like Emmental is due to gas bubbles produced during fermentation. Recent studies revealed that trace amounts of hay in the milk act as nuclei for these gas bubbles, a discovery that led Swiss cheesemakers to add hay flour to replicate traditional methods affected by modern milk collection processes.

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4. Vegan Cheese: Real Cheese or Not?

Listener Questions: Jerry Brown and Lauren Cooper explore the legitimacy and quality of vegan cheese alternatives.

Kaira James asserts,

“To me, vegan cheese is not cheese. I think it's a vegan product. I think vegan cheese product might be a better way to name it, but it's not the same as cheese” ([15:45]).

While vegan cheeses often mimic the fermentation and aging processes of traditional cheeses using plant-based ingredients, Kaira emphasizes that without dairy milk, they don't meet the conventional definition of cheese. She encourages embracing them as distinct products rather than direct substitutes.

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5. Sharp vs. Mild Cheddar and Cheese Coloring

Listener Questions: Abby Grebe and Megan Walker pose questions about sharp cheddar and its orange hue.

Kaira James explains,

“In America, a sharp cheese is aged between six and eight months... cheddar's orange, they've been dyed with a natural ingredient called annatto” ([19:02]).

The aging process imparts a sharper flavor to cheddar, while the orange coloring comes from annatto seeds, which add color without altering the taste. White cheddar simply lacks this dye, resulting in its natural color.

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6. The Crystals in Aged Cheeses

Listener Question: Rachel Glase asks about the crystals found in older cheeses like aged Gouda.

Kaira James responds,

“They're crystallized protein... tyrosine crystals. As the cheese ages, proteins break down and form these crunchy bits” ([22:27]).

These crystals enhance the eating experience by adding texture and concentrated flavors. They indicate well-aged cheese and are prized by many aficionados for their unique crunch.

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7. Why Some Cheeses Melt Differently

Listener Question: Claire Gebben wonders why certain cheeses like mozzarella melt smoothly while others like halloumi remain firm.

Kaira James answers,

“It has to do with the moisture and the acidity of the cheese. Higher moisture and lower acidity cheeses melt well” ([24:13]).

Cheeses with higher moisture content and lower acidity, such as mozzarella and Gruyère, melt seamlessly, making them ideal for dishes like grilled cheese sandwiches. In contrast, high-acid cheeses like paneer and halloumi have protein structures that resist melting.

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8. Making Cheese at Home

Listener Questions: Caro Young and others seek guidance on homemade cheese production.

Kaira James suggests,

“You can buy cheese making kits... You can make mozzarella, ricotta, or even a simple farmer's cheese with lemon juice” ([30:48]).

Starting with a cheese-making kit simplifies the process, allowing enthusiasts to create fresh cheeses like ricotta or mozzarella by following provided instructions and utilizing basic ingredients like lemon juice to curdle the milk.

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9. Government Cheese Reserves

Listener Questions: Mike Earl and others inquire about the existence and purpose of government cheese caves.

Kaira James explains,

“These are man-made caves storing large wheels of cheese for government programs addressing food insecurity” ([50:34]).

Originating during the 1970s to support dairy farmers during economic downturns, these reserves ensure a stable supply of cheese for food assistance programs. The storage facilities, often limestone quarries in states like Missouri, have historically held surplus cheese to prevent waste and support those in need.

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10. Perfecting the Charcuterie Board

Listener Questions: Debbie Powers and others seek tips for assembling the ideal charcuterie board.

Kaira James advises,

“Diversity is key. Include a mixture of soft and hard cheeses, various textures and colors, and pair them with something crunchy, sweet, savory, and pickled” ([68:31]).

A well-balanced charcuterie board features an assortment of cheeses complemented by items like olives, jams, crackers, and cured meats. Consulting a cheesemonger can further enhance selections based on personal preferences and occasion.

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11. Pasteurization vs. Raw Milk Cheese

Listener Questions: Joshua yyz and others ask about the effects of pasteurization on cheese.

Kaira James clarifies,

“Pasteurization kills both good and bad bacteria. While it ensures safety, it may reduce some natural flavors, but cultures can be reintroduced post-pasteurization” ([58:27]).

While raw milk cheeses are celebrated for their complex flavors derived from natural bacteria, pasteurized cheeses offer consistency and safety by eliminating harmful microbes. Both methods have their merits, and the choice often depends on personal taste and safety considerations.

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12. The Allure of Squeaky Cheese Curds

Listener Questions: Lily and others are curious about why fresh cheese curds squeak.

Kaira James explains,

“The squeak is due to the fresh cheese curds’ protein structure. As they age, they lose this texture and stop squeaking” ([61:46]).

Squeaky curds indicate freshness and are highly prized, especially in regions like Wisconsin, where they are often enjoyed fresh from the creamery. The unique texture adds a delightful auditory and gustatory experience.

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13. Cheese Storage Tips

Listener Questions: Alie and others ask about optimal ways to store cheese to maintain its quality.

Kaira James recommends,

“Wrap cheese in parchment paper and place it in a plastic bag without sealing it to allow airflow. Avoid plastic-only wraps to prevent suffocation of the cheese” ([71:19]).

Proper storage maintains the cheese’s integrity by balancing moisture retention and breathability, ensuring longevity and optimal flavor.

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14. The Addictive Nature of Cheese

Listener Question: Lauren Allegra wonders if cheese contains addictive chemicals.

Kaira James confirms,

“Cheese consumption releases dopamine, which makes you feel happy. The milk protein casein breaks down into casomorphins, stimulating dopamine in the brain” ([66:47]).

This biochemical reaction explains why cheese can be comforting and even habit-forming, providing a pleasurable experience that encourages repeated consumption.

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15. Favorite and Least Favorite Aspects of Being a Cheesemonger

Listener Questions: Various listeners inquire about Kaira’s personal experiences in the cheese industry.

Kaira James shares,

“My favorite part is the network of people and the relationships with farms and cheesemakers. The least favorite is the sanitization and cleaning required to maintain cheese quality” ([70:39]).

Her passion for cheese is evident in her dedication to fostering connections within the industry and ensuring the highest standards of quality, despite the routine challenges of maintenance.

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Conclusion

Part Two of Fromology (CHEESE) provides a comprehensive and delightful journey through the nuanced world of cheese. From exploring the peculiarities of illegal cheeses like katsu marzu to demystifying the science behind Swiss cheese holes and the debates surrounding vegan alternatives, Kaira James offers expert insights that both educate and entertain. Listeners leave with a deeper appreciation for cheese, armed with knowledge on everything from perfect storage techniques to crafting the ideal charcuterie board. Whether you're a seasoned cheese enthusiast or a curious newcomer, this episode serves as an invaluable resource in understanding the complexities and joys of cheese.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kaira James ([05:05]): "Maggot cheese is called katsu marzu. It means putrid cheese. And it's illegal."

• Kaira James ([09:47]): "They're actually called eyes and they're basically traps of gas. So during the fermentation process... that creates the holes inside the cheese."

• Kaira James ([15:45]): "To me, vegan cheese is not cheese. I think it's a vegan product. I think vegan cheese product might be a better way to name it, but it's not the same as cheese."

• Kaira James ([22:27]): "They're crystallized protein... tyrosine crystals. As the cheese ages, proteins break down and form these crunchy bits."

• Kaira James ([58:27]): "Pasteurization kills both good and bad bacteria. While it ensures safety, it may reduce some natural flavors, but cultures can be reintroduced post-pasteurization."

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For more insights and a deeper dive into the fascinating world of cheese, listen to the full episode of Fromology (CHEESE) Part 2 on your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Alie Ward]

So just a heads up, as with part one, we're discussing dairy and we also make acknowledgments of animal rights concerns. And this week we discuss a bunch of vegan options in more depth too. And this wonderful cheese expert's focus isn't dairy farming as an industry, but rather the process of cheese making. And also in the future, we have a plant based diet episode coming up, so enjoy. Oh hey, it's once again the monster who returns emails at 4pm on a Friday. Sorry everyone. Still alie ward. This is cheese. This is part two. So if you have come here first, you skipped part one. I just simply cannot abide because you will get to know our esteemed guest and you will know cheese from a foundational level. So start there. Start at part one. That's the beginning. That's how things go. Now, in a moment, we're gonna get to part two, which is just wall to wall listener questions and weirder and creepier tastier gorgeous facts about things like cows on boats and vegan options for cheese. The most violent way to enjoy cheese the great grilled cheese sandwich Debate how to craft some cur. We talk about cheese pricing, squeaky curds, the moon's composition, the ultimate charcuterie board. We also talk holes, crystals, maggots. Oh my. But first, thank you to patrons via patreon.com Ologies who for a dollar a month can submit questions ahead of time for the ologists. And thanks to everyone who's out there wearing Ologies Merch out in the wild so you can find each other. You can get [e-mail] for no dollars. Thank you for leaving us reviews. I read all of them and then as proof I highlight a fresh one such as this one this week from ekw who wrote that this podcast is smart, hilarious, weirdly comforting, and 100% responsible for their new obsession with rattlesnakes. Because like, what do you mean there's a live stream of a rattlesnake den? 10 out of 10. Ekw004 thanks for that from me. And from the rattlesnakes, enjoy the rattlesnakes episode if you haven't already. It's so good. Okay, if you're new around here also and you need any kid safe versions of Ologies, we have them for free. They're in their very own feed. Wherever you get podcasts, they're called smologies S M O L O G I E S Linked in the show notes or just honestly search any podcast player and you can subscribe there for classroom safe and G rated cuts. Also thanks to sponsors of the show for making it possible for us to donate to a cause of the Ologist choosing every episode Introducing the new Dell AI PC Powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor, it helps do your busy work for you so you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, summarizing meeting notes, finding files, managing your schedule, responding to long emails from some guy named Jim, leaving all the time in the world for things. Things that you actually want to do. No offense Jim. Get a new Dell AI PC starting at $699.99 at Dell.com AI PC how those ahead Stay ahead. What's in my stomach? You ask? Ritual Vitamins Daily is my multi of choice. They have an essential for women 18 plus. It contains nine key ingredients my bod needs. They're in two delayed release capsules. They're these little beads and and kind of oil. They look like a lava lamp. They also have a minty flavor and they are designed to be gentle on the stomach. Something I like. Especially if you take your multi every morning as you're running out the door or some people take it at night. I'm also trying to eat more protein. They have Essential Protein Daily shakes which I love. It's vegan and it won the purity award, which is one of the strictest certifications. I love that Ritual is a female, founded B Corp and I love that they're like here are the essentials you need. So I make it part of my having a good day and instead of striving for perfect health, you can aim for supporting foundational health and get 25% off your first month. [e-mail] Ologies you can start Ritual or add essential for women 18 plus to your subscription today. That's ritual.com Ologies for 25% off these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. We have to say that okay, onto part two. Illegal Cheeses the Pasteurization Conundrum how to properly store cheese Orange versus White Cheddar why cheese changes your brain chemistry and so much more. And heads up when you hear this guest say great question. Just feel free to do a tiny imperceptible dance. Or you can take a sip of whatever beverage you've got going on. Celebrate it. There are a lot of really stellar answers to great questions with this professional food educator, certified cheese professional and a Pharmolog, Keira James. Can I do a lightning round of listener questions?

[Kira James]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Alie Ward]

The most questions we've ever gotten on any episode.

[Kira James]

That's awesome. People love cheese.

[Alie Ward]

They love cheese and they have questions.

[Kira James]

My name is Roni, I live in la, and I was wondering what the deal is with the cheese that has the bugs in it. So if you could let me know why the cheese has bugs in it, that would be really great.

[Alie Ward]

Thank you, Roni. Thank you. You're not alone, because Her Ladyship Jen, Dr. Lena Carpenter, TB33, Dory Baggot's husband, Seth Dig, Hayley Kirby Yngwie, Sylvia Treverio, Spencer Aldridge, and Mouse Paxton, who says I'll most things, but that's just too much for me. So that's a cheese even a mouse won't fuck with. So what is happening? And Roni, not Ronnie. Pardon? So Ronnie and other folks want to know what's with the mite cheese? What's with the maggot cheese? What's happening?

[Kira James]

Yeah. So maggot cheese is called katsu marzu.

[Alie Ward]

It means putrid cheese. And it's illegal.

[Kira James]

It's from Sardinia. And what they're basically doing, it's not sold anywhere they make the cheese, but it's no longer allowed to be sold. But they're making the cheese the same way traditionally. And what they do is they le cheese out. So they go through the make process, they go through the aging process, and then the wheel of cheese is sit out on a counter and they basically allow a certain breed of flies to lay their eggs on the cheese. And then the larvae eat away at the cheese and excrete afterwards.

[Alie Ward]

Oh.

[Kira James]

And so that sort of process creates a certain texture and flavor profile that's very, very specific and very, very unique, but very well known also. So, yes, I've never had it, but I learned a lot about it just because people do often ask about it. So. Great question. Yeah. But it's the larvae that. So it's not necessarily maggots, but it's the larvae that are consuming the cheese and creating the super supple texture.

[Alie Ward]

Does that leave holes in the cheese, like little burrows?

[Kira James]

Yeah, there's holes in the exterior of the cheese because they're burring into the paste of the cheese. So there are definitely holes on the outside. Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

So yes, this is a sheep's cheese. It's a pecorino, if you remember from part one, and it's infested with Pyophyla caseae or the Cheese Skipper, also known as a ham skipper. And I'm gonna let you guess why. They also call it a Ham Skipper. So it likes ham. And some folks, they smear this cheese while it's still wriggling right on a piece of bread. And then the party just rages on down the hatch. And apparently, if the maggots are not still alive, it's not safe to eat. If the maggots are alive, it's also not safe to eat. But that's not the point. And I started with this cursory wiki search, but what I found on Wikipedia was so simple and so delicious, I'd like to serve you up some excerpts verbatim. Okay. Some who eat the cheese prefer not to ingest the maggots. Those who do not wish to eat them place the cheese in a sealed paper bag. The maggots, starved for oxygen, writhe and jump in the bag, creating a pitter patter sound. When the sounds subside, the maggots are dead and the cheese can be eaten. Wikipedia continues because the larvae in the cheese can launch themselves distances of up to 15 centimeters or 6 inches when disturbed, diners hold their hands above the sandwich to prevent the maggots from leaping. Now, additionally, the Guinness Book of World Records, which named Katz Martu as the most dangerous cheese in the world, notes that if you eat the maggots and they survive your teeth and your stomach, you could be rewarded with things like intestinal lesions and new wormy roommates down there. You could also enjoy vomiting, itchy butt and bloody diarrhea. Is it worth it? Apparently it tastes intense, which is no surprise, also grassy. It's got a little spicy sting and an aftertaste that I'm reading can last until the next day if you're lucky. So that's a lot of bang for the buck. Now, in a 2021 article in the Outline titled the Secret Resistance behind the World's Most Dangerous Cheese, this article notes that if you go to Sardinia and you ask about this cheese, people will likely be annoyed because one, it's illegal, even though people still make and eat it there. And two, because tourists ask about it all the time. Probably like wanting to make a TikTok about it. Well, several people want to know. Jacob Stock, Matthew Walker, Storm Wickerbich, Bonnie M. Rutherford and Hendrix want to know, in Jacob's words, how does Swiss cheese get its holes? Like girl, is it breathing?

[Kira James]

Great question.

[Alie Ward]

Thanks again, Jacob.

[Kira James]

They're actually called eyes and they're basically traps of gas. So during the fermentation process. When the lactose is being turned into lactic acid in certain types of cheeses, there will be gas bubbles that are formed. They pop inside the cheese and that's what creates the holes inside the cheese. So it's actually the process of making cheese. Emmentaler is one of the most famous ones. What we in America call Swiss cheese often is described as having holes in it, but that's, that's the process of it. And it does create a certain flavor profile as well. It's not just random, it's very intentional.

[Alie Ward]

Okay. Emmental is the proper way to address it, though.

[Kira James]

Emmentaler is one type of cheese. It's becoming extinct in some ways, or trying to save the Emmentaler from going extinct. So it's definitely one that I call out very often, but it's just, it's one that sort of. When you see an image of a piece of cheese with holes in it, that's what it looks like to me.

[Alie Ward]

So there are many, many types of Swiss cheeses, but the holy, holy kind that you're imagining is, yes, called an Emmenthaler. And According to the 1917 paper on the formation of eyes in Emmental cheese, there are three types of holes in this kind of Swiss cheese. The smallest are called Nistler holes, the eyes, which are medium sized. And then there's the largest ones, called blowholes. And this 1917 paper stated very confidently that a rapid gas production makes the Niestler holes and slower gas production must be responsible for the larger holes. Since the 1917 paper, scientists have known that the holes are caused by trapped gases. However. However, a couple decades ago, the holes started disappearing. What is this? Is this climate change? Is this unhappy cows? Did we go down the wrong path in a simulation? Is there some dark magic wielded by a lactose intolerant? What happened to the holes? Well, in 2015, some fresh knowledge bubbled to the surface in a paper titled Mechanism and control of the eye formation in cheese. And that reminded us that, yes, the eye formation in Swiss type cheese is mainly the result of acid fermentation, which creates a few substances, including CO2 gas bubbles. Now, usually pharmologists do these cheese eye exams by, quote, listening to the type of sound made while tapping with a special hammer on the surface of the cheese loaf. This study, however, this 2015 study used ultrasounds and other medical imaging equipment to find out what causes the quantity and the size of the bubbles. And they found out its trace amounts of hay in the milk. So the eyes in Emmenthaler type Cheeses were disappearing because the milk was being collected through more modern means. That is not someone in a sundress and braids with an open pail which would get specks of hay kind of dancing amid the way. So the paper concludes that it's likely that trace amounts of hay dust entering in raw milk have always been the natural source of the eye nuclei which trigger the start of eye formation in the cheese. And just recently this just was decided. There was all this fierce debate from traditionalists and industrialists and Switzerland has decided to allow the addition of hay flour powder to its cheeses. That way they can keep harvesting the milk with modern equipment, but also add a little hay dust in there to get the bubbles back. And it's also worth noting that the holes in this type of cheese for a long time were considered bad and unsightly. They were a bug and not a feature. But over the centuries, this holy look of Emmental cheese became representative of all cheese itself. So remember when you see an Emmentaler cheese just serving with those stunning eyes, remember that that was once seen as bad and now it's iconic. What's the emoji for cheese? Yeah, bitch. The Emmentaler. Okay, dead ass. Side note, we have a two part episode all about how they decide on emojis and it's called curiology. And July 17th is world emoji day because the little calendar emoji says July 17th. We'll link that in the show notes. But let's take a quick detour from dusty buckets to cheese that needs no cows. Dozens and dozens of you wanted to know so many people, I don't even know if I can list all their names. Asked about vegan cheese, Jerry Brown, first time question asker wanted to know does nut cheese use the same bacteria as dairy cheese and is that technically cheese? Lauren Cooper, this is going to be a divisive question. Want to know why does vegan cheese sucks so much? Other people think it's good. I myself a diet cheese, I think that melts great. If you've got a vegan pizza with diet cheese, I'm all for it.

[Kira James]

So I have lots of thoughts on vegan cheese. It's a topic that we talk about in the industry in some way, shape or form a lot. But to me vegan cheese is not cheese. I think it's a vegan product. I think vegan cheese product might be a better way to name it, but it's not the same as cheese. There are vegan cheeses that use the same microorganisms to create the final product. There are vegan cheeses that go through fermentation, well, not fermentation exactly, but where you can actually have a rind on the cheese, where you have certain flavor profiles in the cheese. Like they have blue vegan cheese, they have cheddar vegan cheeses, they're adding certain things to those products that are the same exact ingredients that you'd add to cheese. So in that respect they're very similar. But there's no milk. And so for me, without having dairy milk included, it's not a fermented milk product. So therefore it's not cheese.

[Alie Ward]

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Kira James]

I think that it's delicious. I eat vegetarian often and I've had many of the vegan cheeses on the market and there are a few that I actually would eat again. So I definitely have no shade to them. To me, they're not considered cheese. I would say that they're their own separate category and should be treated as such.

[Alie Ward]

Do you think that nut milks and vegan cheese should go by something else like cheese or milk? Like, do you think that we need a distinguishing name for them?

[Kira James]

I always think things should be able to stand on their own. I think that having its own allows for to create its own perceptions. When you put the word milk or cheese within the name of the product, people are going to automatically associate the two together. And so when you eat vegan cheese and it doesn't taste like cheese, people get upset because they're expecting it to taste like cheese, just like oat milk. When you have oat milk and it doesn't taste like regular milk, people are like, this is gross. And it's like, well, it's not supposed to be the same thing. It's its own product. So I think we kind of do a disservice by naming these things and putting them in the same categories because it doesn't allow that product to shine fully on its own.

[Alie Ward]

It's like calling a bike a car. They're different and they serve different functions.

[Kira James]

That's a good point. Like that.

[Alie Ward]

Yes, it's a bike. Leave it alone.

[Kira James]

Exactly.

[Alie Ward]

So vegan cheeses tend to rely on starches and fats combined instead of protein and fats, as animal dairy does. But in the last few years, there have been more and more and more options for plant based cheese. So if you try to eat your ago, give it another try right now. Someone in a lab coat out there, maybe you're listening, is making nachos that you will love in the future. And that person is probably using the Empirical Schreiber Meltability test, which is an actual thing which puts samples of cheese in an oven on a ringed petri dish to see just what kind of spread each cheese has. And yeah, for me personally I find Daiya cheese D A I Y a Daiya cheese. Those tend to be the stretchiest, meltiest, gooiest. I prefer them over regular shredded cheeses. I think that they're better. But other favorite brands I've seen on plant based forums are Chow Creamery and one called Miyokos Mozzarella which is like a liquid, it comes in a bottle. I guess just trust the process. Violife is said to make a good feta cheese and for blue cheese crumbles, I've heard good things about Follow youw Heart. Now if you have some plant based friends or maybe some vegan curious ones or anyone, maybe you could have like a byovc bring your own vegan cheese pizza party so everyone brings one and then you can sample a lot without spending too much on any one particular one. But if you're like take me back to the cows. This next topic was asked by Lisa Gorman and Taylor, among others. Many people had shutter questions. Abby Grebe, Alice Rubin, Meghan Walker, Rebecca first time question asker and Rachel Glase first time question asker wanted to know. Abby asked I love sharp cheddar. What makes it and other similar cheeses sharp and why is it so much better than mild cheeses? And Megan Walker wanted to know why is so much cheddar orange?

[Kira James]

Great questions. So the word sharp is a tough one.

[Alie Ward]

Okay.

[Kira James]

We in the industry don't use the word sharp very often to describe things because it's, it can mean so many different things. But in America we do brand cheddars using the word sharp and extra sharp and there are actually rules behind it. So to be a sharp cheese in America, it's aged between six and eight months and then to be an extra sharp cheese, an extra sharp cheddar, it's aged at least 12 months. So in thinking about it from a cheesemonger perspective, the older the cheddar is, the stronger the flavor will be. So you have less moisture, more acidity. So oftentimes sharpness is associated with being acidic or like, you know, hitting the back of your throat kind of thing. So the older the cheddar is, the more sharpness or the more intensity you'll find it has. Now cheddar's if they're orange, they've been dyed. Oh, with natural ingredient called annatto. Annatto is a seed. It's similar to turmeric in some ways in that it provides a lot of color but not a lot of flavor to foods. And so when you add annatto to cheese, it creates the orange color without adding any flavor. A lot of times annatto was throughout history added to create distinctions between cheese types so that you can identify it as a certain cheese. Like, oh, that's what you call it because it's orange. Other cheeses are dyed orange naturally. Like a gouda will be a dark orange just because of time during the aging process. It'll actually get darker in color. So a lot of times the darkness is natural. Cheddars and gouda specifically have a lot of yellow tones in them, and that comes from what the animals are eating. So the more grass an animal eats, the more yellow the cheese will be. For cow and sheep, smoked cheeses. So oftentimes if you see a dark yellow cheese, you know that the animal has been eating grass. So that's one another factor. But yeah, they're dyed it orange using annatto seed.

[Alie Ward]

And so white cheddar is just that without the annatto.

[Kira James]

Yes, exactly. And that was something that really blew my mind when I learned it, because when I was little, I only ate orange cheese. I hated white cheese. I thought it tasted. I thought it tasted different. And so to hear it now, I'm like, oh, got got that wrong.

[Alie Ward]

My dad was that way. When they started labeling red licorice like Red Vines fat free, my dad was like, they don't taste the same, but they had always been fat free. But they just started putting that on the label. We're like, dad, that's awesome. Like, I don't know, something's wrong with them. And it's like in your head, but that sharp, sharp cheese. I thought this was a great question. I'm sure you get this a lot. Marcy and Maeve Olivia Myers surely lose enombo. First time question asker. Maya Dash Kentley, Rachel Guthrie, Michael Newman, Kate Radford, Bradley Ludwig and Jordan Irons wanted to know the crystals. Rachel asked, what are the crystals in sharper and harder cheeses? Yeah. How old does it have to be? And Maya is a first time question asker and a Wisconsin cheesehead. And they say they just had a delightful piece of aged Gouda and wondered what makes those magical little crystals. Why are they the most delicious?

[Kira James]

Great question. Yes, Definitely get this one often. So they're not actual crystals. They're crystallized protein. Oftentimes amino acid. So the most common one that you'll see inside the cheeses will be called tyrosine crystals. So as the cheese ages and again loses that moisture, things begin to break down in a different way. So it's actually a form of the proteins breaking down and separating into these crystallized pieces. And so they become little crunchy bites in your cheese. They often taste saltier, but that's just the concentrated flavor of the proteins. There's also crystals sometimes on the exterior of cheeses. Like block. Cheddars will often have what we call calcium lactate, which is an amino acid that is formed on the outside of cheddars that has a little bit of a crystallized texture as well that some people love, some people don't like. But you can always just scrape it off for the calcium lactate. But to get crystals, I mean, the cheese has to be aged, you know, six months or so. If you're making an aged gouda, it probably will take a few more months to get to crystallized textures. But Cheddar, you might have some crystals at, like, six months to eight months.

[Alie Ward]

So if you see little crunchy crystals in the cheese that you just bought, don't worry. You are just blessed. It's so interesting to think that your cheese could be older than, like, a baby that's walking, you know, or something like that. That's nuts. A lot of people, Claire Gebben, Mallory Albee, Kayla, Rhiannon, Humony, Alice Rubin, and Jordan wanted to know, in Claire's words, why do some cheeses melt and become liquid like mozzarella? And some hold their shape like halloumi?

[Kira James]

Great question. So it has to do with the moisture and the acidity of the cheese. So if it's higher in moisture and low in acidity, that's sort of the sweet spot for melting cheese. So in terms of what that means for you, the person who doesn't know what moisture or acidity levels are in cheese, look for things that are at that sort of malleable texture or sort of wiggly or you can, like bendable or pliable. Things that are super hard are not gonna have a lot of moisture in them, so they're gonna take a lot longer to melt. And things with high acidity, like paneer or halloumi, that are on the other end of the spectrum, are not gonna melt. Their proteins are sort of set up in a different way, so the proteins are a lot tighter together when they're high in acid. And so that the proteins don't wanna melt, they're gonna wanna stick together and keep that strong bond they have. So asking a cheesemonger is the best recommendation I can give. But if you're at the store looking for cheeses that melt well, look for things that are sort of semi firm or that you can bend or that you can sort of press your finger into. Those cheeses will melt really well.

[Alie Ward]

And in part one, you may remember that we covered sodium citrate added to American cheese to make it meltier and to stabilize the proteins and fats. And as long as we're here, did you know that Parmesan cheese powder? I just found this out. You know, the kind that you shake over spaghetti leftovers? The one with, like, the green top? It's called Parmesan because outside the eu, you can just call whatever, whatever, even though it's not pure Parmesan. Also check the back of that cheese powder and you will probably see the ingredient cellulose fiber, which is just wood pulp. They just add sawdust in there to prevent caking. But also they do it to sell you some sawdust because it's probably cheaper than cheese. Now, if that is the only Parmesan cheese that you've ever had, you're me until my late 20s. But it turns out that Parmigiano Reggiano is the actual cheese. It's worth the crumble. But back to those softer, meltier cheeses. Hang onto your lactose tabs for a very contentious question here. Alice Rubin and Jason Freer wanted to know. Jason asked, what cheese should I use for the best grilled cheese sandwich? Or in your mind, if you had your perfect grilled cheese? This can be absolutely subjective from your perspective. Best grilled cheese, is it a sourdough? Is it a wheat bread? Is it a rye? What's your dream grilled cheese?

[Kira James]

I do love sourdough. I would probably say sourdough bread and I would go to the Alps, so I would probably get some young Gruyere or a young Comte. Comte is made in France. Similar recipe to Gruyere, but a little bit sweeter. There's also fontina is a great melter. So it would be a mix of a few cheeses for sure. I like to have diversity in my grilled cheese. So a couple different cheeses. I use butter. I know you can use, like mayo or things for your exterior, but I just use butter on the outside of the bread and then, yeah, that would probably be my ideal cheese. I like the nuttiness of Alpine cheeses. They're super nutty and they have Some sweetness. So those would be my choices.

[Alie Ward]

Nice. Just a side note. So America's test kitchen did the legwork of making mayo and butter and for good measure, olive oil grilled cheeses. And the results were essentially buttery butter. One tasted the most buttery, but it was harder to spread when the butter was cold. Full fat mayo spread the easiest, but had an acidic tang from the lemon juice and olive oil tasted too much like olive oil. So it seems that whatever you grill it with, it will taste like that. So there's science. Alice Rubin again. And David wanted to know. Alice asked, why doesn't my homemade Mac and cheese taste cheesy? And David wanted to know they've made a cheese sauce that tasted very grainy. Best way to make a good Mac and cheese that tastes cheesy and not just milky.

[Kira James]

Less milk or less cream. I mean, just focus on the cheese, using that as your base. Instead of adding, like, I know in my world, my mom adds a lot of milk to her Mac and cheese. Instead of just making a cheese sauce of some kind and then adding that to the noodles, that would be the, I think, the best solution to making it cheesy. And a nice cheese pull. Having a mixture of cheeses. Also having some that have more pungency, like things that might seem too strong for Mac and cheese might be just the thing because when it melts, the enzymes and proteins are breaking down, so the flavor changes a bit. So it might not be as pungent once you melt it into the cheese. And then having something mild, so having something on the stronger side, like an aged alpine style cheese, and then having something softer, you know, like a mozzarella or something on that, you know, super, super creamy.

[Alie Ward]

So something pungent like an alpine cheese, plus something soft and creamy and milder. So this is a two pronged approach at least. And use less milk. Think of making a cheese sauce so your noodles don't soak in a bath. Your noodles get a moisturizer of cheese.

[Kira James]

But then you can also add Parmesan. I mean, adding a little bit of Parmesan. Parmesan melts really well. Even though it's a hard cheese, adding a crust with more cheese on it is something else that I would recommend always having some kind of like breadcrumb or cheesy crust. For the grainy question, that's definitely to do with the type of cheese that you used. If it wasn't that sort of high moisture, low acid that I mentioned, if it was a harder cheese, you might have a more granular texture. Once it melts. So that could be the reason why, if the cheese was too aged or not enough moisture, that can make your cheese, your Mac and cheese, grainy.

[Alie Ward]

So use a softer cheese, less acid, less age. When you're whipping up a Mac and cheese and then call me, invite me over, give me a bib and the casserole dish and then leave me alone with it. No looking at me, no talking. What about as long as. On the topic of homemade, Brian Scott Earl of Gramalkin, Zack Ever 8, Caro Young and Christie Adventure wanted to know. Caro asked, is there an easy way to make cheese at home? And how can I start doing that?

[Kira James]

So you can buy cheese making kits, which is what I would recommend to do. Just searching cheese making kits. I think there's a few different companies that have high ratings and they give you all the instructions, they give you all the ingredients that you'll need, so you can just follow along. And you can make mozzarella, you can make ricotta using rennet, but also to make a fresh cheese, like a farmer's cheese, just like at home. Quick, cheese, all you need is some lemon juice, like we mentioned in the beginning, and you can make cheese. So you'd heat the milk to a certain temperature, you'd add the lemon juice to it, and then it will separate, it'll make a gel. And then you have to cut the curds, cut the solid mass that it's become, and then you drain out the whey and you have fresh cheese.

[Alie Ward]

Ha. Done.

[Kira James]

Yes. And then add salt, of course.

[Alie Ward]

Lunar crumpet. And the one and only Arnie Schmutz and Sadie Vipan. Sadie asks, moon is made of cheese opinions? Do you get that question a lot?

[Kira James]

Not too often. I've heard it before about the moon being made of cheese, but from my knowledge, it is not made of cheese.

[Alie Ward]

There you go.

[Kira James]

So that's. Yeah.

[Alie Ward]

Thank you for answering that.

[Kira James]

My expert opinion. Yes.

[Alie Ward]

We actually did interview a moon expert, a planetary geologist and a selenologist, the wonderful Raquel Nuno. And I'm going to play you a clip from her episode, because every time I see the moon, I freak out now because of her, because of this. One of the cool things that I think when I think about the moon and the impact that caused it was there was so much energy that collected from that original impact that formed the moon that the entire moon was just a magma ocean. So that's it. Yeah. Just imagine the whole moon. No, just magma. Yeah. So that's. That's what, that's the prevalent Theory, and we have evidence for that. So it's just lava. The whole thing is just lava. Oh, my God. The moon was a lava ocean. It was a lava ocean. Here we are thinking it's cheese. But at one point it was habanero queso. Becky, the sassy seagrass scientist, and Han the bee and Sinclair want to know. Becky asked any basic tips or guidelines for how to tell if a delicious cheese should be exorbitantly expensive or if Whole Foods is just fooling us all? Like, bang for your buck? Because cheese can get pricey.

[Kira James]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

But especially if you don't know what to get.

[Kira James]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

Tips.

[Kira James]

There are certain cheeses that will be more expensive overall. Sheep's milk cheeses are often more expensive. Sheep produce less milk for less period of time, and there are just less sheep on the planet. So when you just think about the availability of the milk and the process it takes to create the cheese, the labor, and all those things that can raise the price. So anything made of sheep's milk is oftentimes more expensive. And then things that are aged longer can be more expensive. So if they're over a year old, that means that for over a year, some human somewhere was taking care of this cheese. And that human needs to be paid for for the work and the storage of the cheese. So all those things will add up over time. Smaller producers will also probably be some of the more expensive cheeses. Now, if you don't know your producers, you might not know that Blakesville Creamery is a small producer out of Wisconsin, but it is. And so therefore, the cheeses are. Might be a different price than sort of some other larger producers, just because of how supply and demand works in that respect. So educating yourself on where the cheese is coming from, you know, doing a quick Google search on your phone, if you're like, whoa, this seems really expensive, check it out. See if it's something that you're interested in learning more about and trying. And then quantity. Oftentimes people buy cheese with their eyes and not with the reality that you're. Are you really gonna eat all that cheese? And so if you buy a big hunk of it, it's gonna be more expensive than a small piece. You might be nervous to talk to a monger, but if there's only a huge piece of cheese and you want half of it, just ask them to cut it in half for you, and they should be able to do that for you.

[Alie Ward]

See, then you get 50% off because you only bought half as much cheese.

[Kira James]

Exactly.

[Alie Ward]

I think also when you understand what goes into it, then you're like, this is worth the price, because this person had to baby this cheese, which is great context for really appreciating something of quality.

[Kira James]

Or maybe they only have like 50 animals and they have that small herd of animals and only make 20 wheels of cheese a week, and that's all they sell. You know, that's gonna add to it too, right?

[Alie Ward]

And on that topic, Teresa Gleason wanted to know, so all those different flavors that are in cheeses, where do they come from? Is it something that cheesemakers add? Is it wild yeast? Is it milk from different kinds of cows, goats, or sheep? Do the animals lend a lot of that flavor profile?

[Kira James]

Great question, and the answer is 100% yes. So what? The type of animal that it is, what they're eating, all will impact the flavor of the cheese. There are certain breeds of cows that have more fat in their milk. There are certain breeds of goats that have more protein. You know, there's different characteristics in different breeds. And so depending on what type of cheese you're looking to make, the breed will add to that experience if they're being conscious of that sort of attribute of the cheese.

[Alie Ward]

And just a side note, the sweet looking, kind of tawny cows in the Alps that look way better in a flower crown than anyone at the Ren Faire. They're most likely an older breed of a brown Swiss cow. And they make a fair amount of milk. It's high in fat and protein, and they're great for rich alpine cheeses. Now, the patchy black and white dairy cow is a crossbreed, and it yielded way more milk than other types of cows. And it really rose to popularity in the mid-1800s. There was a guy named Winthrop Chenery from Massachusetts, and he heard that a ship had a cow on board so the sailors could have milk. And Winthrop was like, whatever that is, I want one of them. Give me one of them cows. And now when you drive past black and white bovines, you point and say cows. And some people asked about ethics in cheese. Stacy Dow, Sam, both first time question askers wanted to know. Stacy asked, when they were in grad school, they took a dairy class. They visited dairies around western Pennsylvania, and they were shocked at the differences. Some allowed calves to stay with mom. Some were immediately taken away. What's the best way, in terms of an animal's experience, to enjoy cheese? Is it different animals? Is it different producers?

[Kira James]

That is a great question. It goes into, again, the story behind the cheese and how it's Being made. There are positives and negatives to both situations where the animal stays with the mom or the animal leaves for cheesemaking. And if you are a artisan, specially produced cheese maker, you know, looking to the environment, caring about your animals, then you're not removing the animal from the mom. You're waiting till the animal is done nursing and then the mom still lactating. So cows specifically will lactate for a year, whereas the calves won't consume the milk for the entire year. They're moved to grass. And so then you have this excess milk that has nowhere to go. And so since it's so nutritious, you make cheese out of it. And that's sort of the beginnings of cheese making in a nutshell. They had too much milk, so they started making cheese.

[Alie Ward]

For more on the history of cheese, you can listen to part one of this episode. That's the order they go. In a more esoteric question, Marisa, Scott, Sheldon, Mallory, Abey and Pink Puppy wanted to know, in Scott's words, we gotta talk about the cheese rolling down the hill thing. Have you heard about this? A double Gloucester cheese. What is cheese rolling?

[Kira James]

Yeah, there's one competition where they have one wheel of cheese and they roll it down the hill and people run after it. And whoever gets to the cheese first, people fall, people roll all the way down this hill. Everyone's on their bum at first.

[Alie Ward]

I've watched all the videos.

[Kira James]

Everyone's on their bum and you know, they're so scared at the top. That's where they go wrong. Yes, that is your moment to strike there. And then, you know, at the right top where everyone's at the most scared, that's when you need to stroke.

[Alie Ward]

That was English. And I know, don't. Don't know what he was saying, but that's okay because I will never do this. I thought this competition might be like a pastoral affair with a cheese wheel bounding through alpine flowers, maybe scattering lazy bumblebees. But this shit is a bloodbath. This is ins. This is not okay. So there's a place called Cooper's Hill in Gloucester, England, and it's a cliff. Let's be so for real right now. It is a cliff with grass. It is a 200 yard off ramp into hell at a 45 degree average angle. But some estimates have the initial drop 60 degrees. That is so steep nearly every year for what's estimated may have been hundreds of years. People who have no amygdalas vault themselves down a death grade in pursuit of a single wheel of double Gloucester cheese and what I'm guessing is respect and lifelong orthopedic issues. I don't know what they're after, but I think that cheese costs, like, 50 bucks. So it's clearly not just the cheese, but when the cheese falls, when it's released and it starts to roll, everyone's lined up, waiting to chase it. It looks like if you had a bunch of tiny people on a green bedspread and then you suddenly shook the bedspread and all of those tiny people somersaulted violently or simply tumbled skull over ankle for nearly two football fields until a line of rugby dudes at the bottom caught their charging bloodied, injured bodies. Whoever gets the wheel is not the spectacle. Someone gets the wheel, nobody cares. They are a footnote. But what we are here to see is alive. Human bodies flying like rag dolls and getting their bones. It would be impossible to calculate the number of concussions this event has produced. One guy this year, 2025, caught so much air doing a triple front flip at what's been estimated at 60 miles per hour. He landed with a bounce, and I couldn't tell if he was one or two people because the limbs didn't make sense. No one's wearing helmets. At best, they might be wearing an inflatable dinosaur costume, which pops the instant the cheese wheel rolls. Thousands of spectators catch this stuff from every angle, and it just simply does not feel real. Evidently, it didn't feel real for that one guy this year, because by some miracle of cheese, that man survived, and he told people he was on mushrooms, and he didn't feel a thing. Now, the Wikipedia for this event. And again, another gem. I just have to quote verbatim for you. Whoever is updating Wikipedia pages for cheese is really at the top of their game. But this says about this cheese competition that Canadian competitor Delaney Irving won the ladies race in 2020 despite finishing unconscious and only learning of her victory in the medical enclosure. So the neighborhood around Cooper's Hill, it gets jammed with tourists, cell phones strained for a glimpse, and ambulances are clogging the streets to take people away every year, the lucky ones that don't ride away in the medevac chopper that's standing by. And this tells me two things. Okay, People love cheese, and. And countries with nationalized healthcare systems produce braver individuals. Now, if this is giving you the itch to fling yourself down a mountain for the glory of the wheel, please first listen to our episodes. We have one on concussions and traumatic brain injury, as well as one about why Your knees hurt and why you don't want to have to get surgery on them.

[Kira James]

Whoever gets there first wins the wheel of cheese. But there are also competitions where you're rolling the cheese like a bowling ball to see how far it rolls. So there are all sorts of things. And this has to do with the make process, right? It can't be wobbly, it can't be lopsided for these competitions. So it does get pretty competitive.

[Alie Ward]

Is it covered in wax or does it just pick?

[Kira James]

Okay, yes, these are covered in wax. Yes.

[Alie Ward]

I wasn't sure if they were like grass fed just by virtue of rolling down a lawn. I almost didn't finish this episode on time because I watched too many Gloucester cheese competition rag doll people, even though it hurt throat to even watch the videos. Also in part one, Kira and I chatted about American cheese, how it's not a cheese, and that it has the same anticoagulant sodium citrate, usually as blood donations get to keep them from clumping. So let's revisit that. A lot of people had questions about American cheese. Kieran H. Wanted to know your opinions on it. TB33, let's settle this once and for all. And I know we covered this a little bit in part one, but Sarah Burkhalter, I thought, had a great question first time, ask her. Why is American cheese so good on burgers but so crappy everywhere else? What is it about American cheese? Like, why is it. Why is American cheese like American cheese?

[Kira James]

Like Kraft Singles, we're talking here.

[Alie Ward]

How did it pop up into the cheese scene to say I'm sort of cheese, but not really cheese, but it's also good on some stuff?

[Kira James]

I mean, the history behind American cheese goes back to a time where there weren't refrigeration or there weren't ways to store artisan cheese. People were making cheese and losing it. And so scientists figured out a way to emulsify the cheese into this product and make it shelf stable. That was the first step to it. And then from there they began to create these other cheese products again, like vegan cheese. To me, it's not considered a cheese. It's a cheese product. It's its own thing. I eat it on burgers. I'll eat American cheese in certain situations because it tastes really good, it melts really well. It's great on a grilled cheese, it's great anywhere it's melted. But it's very different than artisan specially made cheeses that are similar in style to that make process.

[Alie Ward]

I agree with you that it's great on a grilled cheese. I think that vegan cheeses too, melts in a way that is like, okay, it's really bouncy in a way. You know what I mean? It's like taffy, kind of. Kind of fluffy. But speaking of American cheese, and speaking of America, Sophie A. Said, can we please talk about Reagan's cheese caves? Hope asked, please tell us about the cheese caves. Nicole Campbell, first time question asker. Is there really a vault of cheeses under the United States? Have you heard of this? I don't know where this story came from, but I was talking to my nail tech, Shelby, who I love, and she was like. I said, I'm interviewing a cheese expert. And she said, that is so exciting. Are there cheese caves under the United States? And I was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but I need to ask about this. What's going on?

[Kira James]

Yes, there is a cheese reserve. It's part of the government's way to make sure that we don't run out of food. So it's a reserve of cheeses that are used mostly for government funded programs for food insecurity. Oftentimes cheese is used in that respect, but it is a reserve. It's in. I believe it's in Missouri.

[Alie Ward]

Someone asked about Missouri. Yeah, the cheese caves in Missouri. We're gonna get to those in just a moment. But first, let's donate to a cause of the ologist's choosing. And this week, Kira chose two, one for each part of the cheese duo episode. And they are the Cheese Culture Coalition, which works to create a more equitable and inclusive cheese industry for black, indigenous and people of color through education and grant programs. And via cheeseculturecoalition.org you can find out more about their programs. You can donate or you even fill out a form to volunteer on their committees or their fundraisers. And the second donation is going to Team Up's Building Schools in Kenya, which Kira says is a great organization run by a dear friend of hers, and they work to ensure that Kenyan children receive the education they need and provide communities with easily accessible, clean and sustainable water resources. And you can find out more about them or [e-mail] so thank you to sponsors of the show for making those donations possible. We spend so much time looking at screens which can lead to eye strain. At Pearl Vision, their trusted eye doctors take the time to understand how your eyes are feeling and what they need. Eye strain can be managed with expert care from Pearle Vision Schedule an eye [e-mail] get 40% off on a second pair for you or your family. Some restrictions and exclusions may apply. See participating stores for detectives details. Nobody cares for eyes more than Pearl. Introducing Family Freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to 3, 200 and give you four free phones, all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com familyfreedom up to 800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs 829 eligible trade in example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel contact us.

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[Alie Ward]

Okay, so let's dig into government cave cheese as it was on the minds of patrons. Mike Earl of Grammarkin, Laura Fitzgerald, any horrible fo, Sophia A. Caitlin Tyndale Hope Anna Elizabeth Kayla Nicole Campbell, London Noel, Brittany Schaffes, Timmy H. And Elta Sparks.

[Kira James]

Yeah, and it's. They're caves. They're man made caves and they have rows and rows of cheese. They're not the most artisan produced cheeses from the small producers, but they're large wheels that are there to serve the people who need it. And so, yeah, it definitely exists.

[Alie Ward]

Okay, so I had definitely heard of government cheese and I had friends whose families had it a lot growing up. It sustained food insecure people for decades. And government cheese, also in American culture, has become a little bit of a shorthand for having to make ends meet. But I didn't know about the caves or the timeline. So the long story, less long, is that in the 1970s, the Carter administration helped out the dairy farmers in a recession by buying up their milk when they made too much. That way the market wouldn't be flooded with so much milk that the prices dropped and the farmers went broke. So the government bought a bunch of the milk. How do you store millions of dollars worth of milk? You make processed, velvety, tasty cheese and then you put it in temperature controlled limestone quarries you have just sitting around perfect for stashing a bunch of cheese. So over the years, cheese has gone into storage in case of natural disasters or sudden food scarcity. There's this big stock of cheese. But then so much cheese started to pile up that in the early 1980s, President Ronald Reagan said, let's give some of this cheese away. And still there's this in and out of buying up excess dairy and keeping it as government cheese. And the government cheese gets handed out to nonprofits and food banks and folks on welfare or food assistance and elderly populations. For now at least, it has been. And literally, as I typed this up, as I'm about to put this episode out tonight, news broke that the Trump administration has been sitting on a store of of 500 metric tons of food meant for starving children in Afghanistan and Pakistan. But instead of distributing it to the starving children, the Trump administration has been doing nothing with it. And now it's about to expire this week. And so they'll simply incinerate it. I'm not sure if this is making America great. Again, as even Ronald Reagan, the guy who cut more than $22 billion from social welfare programs, was like, let's give out some free cheeses to people who need it. But no, we have now reached an era of we could feed starving children, but instead let's just burn the food and the children anyway. Cheese. So Daniel Schmanol, Lizzy Martinez, Sarah Don and Eric Easton, Mike Karen H. Wisconsinite Debbie Powers a softly boiled egg Eileen Wong and Chelsea and her dog Charlie and Felipe Jimenez, in their words asked what's the weirdest but successful pairing you've tried with cheese? Some people asked about cheese pairings. Donnie Needham from New Zealand said, best things to eat with cheese or more unusual but yummy. In New Zealand we do a thing called mouse traps, which is bread grilled spread with Marmite, which is a yeast extract, topped with cheese and grilled again. Brian Shenanigan said, pineapple and feta together are epic pizza toppings and you will thank me later for it. Eileen Wang Samwise Cheese Puff both asked thoughts on cheese and apple pie Any cheese pairings that you are staunchly against, against or that you are an advocate for?

[Kira James]

So I'm into complimentary or contrasting flavors. So I often am drawn to adding sweetness to cheese. Cheese is really salty and often acidic, so something with a little bit of sweetness as contrasting. So it kind of makes things exciting. It makes the experience going back and forth between salty, sweet, salty sweet. So with that in mind, I look to things like honeys, jam, fruits, the things that you see on charcuterie boards. They're not there by mistake. They're there because they go really well with cheese. So those are my go to like when I'm just snacking. Oftentimes it's just honey and cheese. I love honey and it goes with all types of cheese and there's all types of honey too. Unusual pairings for me. Chocolate isn't super unusual, but people haven't done it before. But chocolate and cheese go really well together, specifically dark chocolate and blue cheese. Oh what Again, looking at the saltiness in the cheese and the sweetness in the dark chocolate. But then there's bitterness in the dark chocolate and salt mitigates the presence of bitterness in foods. So when you add the saltiness to the bitterness, it makes the dark chocolate more fudgy and it just creates this really fun experience where you're having like a fudge and cheese situation.

[Alie Ward]

What is that, Norwegian? It's almost like browned and sweetened cheese. Oh it's called like gaust or ghost maybe that's it. It's almost like a toast, like a geltast or something. My friend Celia is from Norway. She's an amazing chef, and she'll post pictures of it. And I'm like, I don't know what that is or what it tastes like, but I want it. It's like caramelized almost.

[Kira James]

Yeah. I can't pronounce it, but it's like jost.

[Alie Ward]

Yeah.

[Kira James]

G, J, E, T, O, S T. It's like they actually caramelize the milk to create the cheese and so it tastes like caramel.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, God, I bet that's so good. So, yeah, Haytoast is made with goat's milk, but it can also be called brunost. And ask a Norwegian or a monger how you two can enjoy caramel breakfast cheese. Fran said in Switzerland, they learned that you should always have either wine or tea with cheese, so you don't get a cheese baby that is a bloated tum. Of course, I follow this as much as possible because I love tea and wine. But are there other beverages to pair? I mean, we're doing a wine episode and I know that you also advocate for like, so cheese tastings, which I think is awesome. But pairings for beverages and cheese, definitely.

[Kira James]

So for wine and beer, the most traditional sort of way of thinking about pairings are light with light and bold with bold. So if you have a light, fresher cheese, then a lighter wine should pair well with it. Looking to fresh cheeses or soft ripened cheeses, like a goat's milk cheese and like a white wine, like from France, like a Sancerre or a lighter grape, and then looking to bolder cheeses with bolder wines or beer. So blue cheeses, goudas, aged cheddars, things that have more robust flavor profiles, can handle bigger flavored beverages. So you can do a dark beer or a red wine, something that has more going on because they can hold their own against one another. Other beverages that go well with cheese, Kombucha is one that I go to. It's not your go to beverage, but the vinegar and the subtle sweetness actually pairs really nicely with cheeses. Oftentimes ones that have more of a buttery texture to them could go really nicely with cheese. But I love pairing cheese with tea. I think that that is a great combination. I don't do it enough, but that's definitely like a hot tea. And a cheese is very. They go really well together and it.

[Alie Ward]

Probably melts in your mouth a little bit if your mouth is warm, you know, Warm.

[Kira James]

Yes, exactly.

[Alie Ward]

When you're eating like chocolate and a warm beverage, it just like melts. You taste it more and I can't believe I forgot to ask this before, but. Joshua yyz, first time question asker, wanted to know if there's ever been a study to confirm or disprove the effect of pasteurization on the texture, the taste of cheese. Is it real or is it just potentially lethal? Hippie dragon, they asked. So in part one, we did discuss that. People say raw milk cheese has a highly superior curd texture by some accounts. But many patrons, such as Fairy Jessa, Tracy Woodard, Aaron Wood, Andy Pepper and David wanted to know the scoop. So let's jump into it. Raw cheese, is it better or is it hype?

[Kira James]

Great question. There's been lots of discussions about pasteurization. I don't know if there's like scientific evidence around the flavor profile, but there are, you'll see. Get two different camps in the cheese world where people are against pasteurization and just really focus on raw milk cheeses. And then you have people who accept pasteurization as a way of being in the latter, where pasteurization is a way of being in some ways it helps control the risks of bad bacterias getting into our bodies. So when you pasteurize milk, you heat it to a certain temperature for a certain period of time and that kills off the bacteria, both the good bacteria and the bad bacteria. So when you're looking at the camp of mongers and cheese professionals who only go with raw milk, then they're looking at that from the perspective of it's killing off the good bacteria and therefore it's killing off the flavor. So the natural flavors in the cheese are being pasteurized or removed. And then when you pasteurize the milk, you have to add everything back to. You can still have a full flavored cheese when it's pasteurized. You're just adding the cultures and the bacterias back to the curds after you've pasteurized the milk. So I don't think that there's a right or wrong way to be, but I think having a full understanding of what pasteurization is is the best way forward. Because in America we can't have anything aged under 60 days. That's raw milk. Anything that's made with raw milk has to be aged more than 60 days for us to consume it in America. And that's because the FDA thinks that on day 61 everything is fixed. So there's some, you know, I hear the hippie and I hear the government interaction, but there is some safety measures that are included with it, but some things are just not super accurate. And so the FDA is a little bit outdated in the pasteurization rules, and hopefully we'll get that changed soon. But for now, just kind of learn to accept it and learn to appreciate the cheeses that are pasteurized for what they are.

[Alie Ward]

What could be living in your lunch, you ask? So, According to a 2024 piece in Scientific American titled, is Raw Milk Cheese Safe to Eat? Milk can become contaminated with harmful microbes like salmonella, listeria, and E. Coli that can survive the cheese production and aging process, which is why in pasteurization, they blast that milk up to 160 degrees FAH, or just over 70 Celsius to kill it off. But, yeah, some of the tiny, tasty organisms also perish. And so you get a cheese that's safer, it's more reliable, but it's maybe lacking in some of the bacterial chaos that some fromagophiles really tend to prefer. But from stinky to fresh, let's talk about the squeakiest cheese. So patrons Don W, Sarah King, Canadian, Alia Meyers all echo Sean o' Shea's request to quote, tell me something about cheese curds in their words, I can't believe I didn't ask this sooner. Lily, Meghan Walker, Erin Dani Kirby, Lauren Cooper, Ashley Dewing, Ara Victor, and several other people need to know. Lily asked, why are fresh cheese curds the best and what makes them squeak? What's up with that?

[Kira James]

Good question. So to get to cheese curds, you're doing something very specific. You're not just separating the curds from the whey and then cutting the curds into pieces, but then those pieces are allowed to sit and firm up. And so they, they squeak when you hold them, sort of like move them around, they make, like, squeaky, like, rubbery kind of noises, and that tells you that they're fresh. The longer that they sit, the less likely that they'll make that noise, which is just a thing of freshness. It doesn't mean that you can't eat the curds anymore if they're. They're not squeaking. But oftentimes people prefer squeaky curds over other curds, and oftentimes that's because they're more fresh.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, I've heard so many people from Wisconsin be like, if they don't squeak, I don't want it. And if you've never had a squeaky curd, you have not had the best curds. So it's like, I feel like I need to go to Wisconsin because I don't know if I've had a squeaky curd. I can also ask my cheesemonger if they can hook me up with the squeakiest curds.

[Kira James]

Cause Wisconsin, they're especially. Those producers will make curds like the same day and sell them. And so you get them super fresh, like right from the creamery. And so they're. Yeah, they're super squeaky.

[Alie Ward]

Also, if that Sound of the YouTube user mdracer51 Open mouth squeaking cheese curds is making you want to find my location and harm me, please know I come in peace. And you have what's called misophonia, which is a very strong aversion to the sound of chewing or other noises. And yeah, we have a whole episode with a misophonia HAVER and expert Dr. Jane Gregory about distracting sounds and noise rage. And there are no chewing noises in that episode because I care and I promise. So if you have that, congratulations, you're not alone. But yeah, fresh cheese curds, they have protein and calcium structure and it rubs on your tooth enamel and it sounds like you're chewing on a bike tire. Now, if you've never had that sensation and you need to, you can ask your cheesemonger to try to hook you up with the freshest stuff, or you can gather your family and all of your belongings and move to Wisconsin. The choice is yours. Also, speaking of your local monger, I spoke of my fave roux. And if you ever pop in a milk farm in Eagle Rock in la, you can tell them that Ologies sent you. But speaking of roux, I asked them what their favorite cheese is and they said, hmm, there are way too many beautiful cheeses in the world for me to pick a favorite. But here's my overly wordy thoughts on a great cheese to enjoy with some cherries, berries or pluots during stone fruit season. So Rue says Au Su Arati is a style of firm sheep's milk cheese. And don't worry about spelling that. We linked it on our website. It starts with an O, S, S. Don't worry about it. But it's made exclusively in the Pyrenees and they wish that it had way better name recognition in the States. So again, we'll link it. It's O S, S, A U, I, R, A T, Y. Okay, so that's one reason it doesn't have name recognition. Because what are those letters? Either way, RU says that they usually try to recommend this one to people who know that they like Manchego and they want to try something a little different because it's so good. And Rue says that ossu arati tastes like brown butter and toasted hazelnuts. But some wheels are very floral on the nose. Others have a really savory, meaty umami thing going on. And they said it's a good snacking cheese, and it's great melted in a quesadilla or a burger. And at Milk Farm in La, Rue says that sometimes when they're really lucky, they'll get a wheel of assu erati estive. And the estiv, or estive, not sure it means wheels, are made in the summer months because the farmers take their herds up to the higher mountain pastures where they can kind of beat the heat and they can chow down on tasty summer flora ruses. So the estiv, or estive wheels tend to be intensely herbal in a really fun way, but they're really rare to find. And with that story, Rue also introduced me to the word estiva, meaning summer. And there's this rare derivative estivation, which carries the same idea as summering. And Rue provided me with the example. Every year, Elizabeth and I estivate in the Hamptons. Said, no one ever, Rue says. So, Rue, thank you for essentially emailing me back. An aside for this episode that I didn't even have to write or research. So now I know I want to get some stone fruit, and I want to try some cheese that tastes like brown butter and nuts and flour. And it's called Osu erati. And also, great confirmation that cheesemongers have wonderful stories and everyone should have a friend who's a cheesemonger.

[Kira James]

So, yeah, ask your monger.

[Alie Ward]

I gotta ask my monger. So many people, we're almost. We have two questions left from. Is that okay? I'm so sorry that this is the most.

[Kira James]

Don't apologize.

[Alie Ward]

I love this marathon. Oh, my God. Okay. So many people asked. I don't even know if I can list them all. Lauren Allegra asked, is it true that there's an addictive chemical in cheese, or do I just use the that as an excuse to eat more cheese?

[Kira James]

Another great question. So there are connections between eating cheese and the release of dopamine. So similarly to other activities and, you know, some positive, some negative, but oftentimes people say things like, cheese is addictive, like, you know, drugs or something. And that's because it really. You want to eat cheese, it actually releases dopamine, which makes you happier. So that's why when people Eat cheese, they're actually having a chemical reaction where their dopamine is released and they're feeling happier and more go, lucky if you will.

[Alie Ward]

And yes, it's true. In a 2021 paper titled Casomorphins and gladorphins have diverse systemic effects spanning gut, brain and internal organs. Explains that, yes, the milk protein casein breaks down into casomorphins and those can stimulate dopamine in the brain. Brain. Just like anything that makes you feel good.

[Kira James]

So now we can just use it as a positive excuse for eating more cheese. Like, if you're in a bad mood, eat a piece of cheese. You're feeling depressed, eat a piece of cheese.

[Alie Ward]

I think that technically makes you a psychiatrist.

[Kira James]

Oh, yeah.

[Alie Ward]

Doesn't it?

[Kira James]

I think so.

[Alie Ward]

Are you now, Dr. James?

[Kira James]

I'm here to help you find your bliss through cheese.

[Alie Ward]

Well, last listener question. I think it's the one that's probably on everyone's minds. Mike. Kieran H. Debbie Powers, first time question asker. A softly boiled egg grass. Eileen Wang, Chelsea and her dog Charlie. Debbie, first time question asker, Wisconsinite cheese aficionado. What are your best tips for a charcuterie board? You're gonna build a charcuterie board. Maybe you've got in laws coming over for the first time. Maybe you got a date happening. Maybe it's your birthday. What are we going for?

[Kira James]

Definitely. So the big thing for me is diversity. So having a mixture of all the things when I educate or give suggestions, because I'm always asked by family and friends this question. So another great question. Look for different types of cheese. So look for those. The style we talked about, look for something soft and something hard. If it's for a small gathering, just two cheeses is fine. One soft, one hard. If it's for a bigger gathering and you get, you know, four to five cheeses, then look for different textures, different colors, maybe one that has flavor or smoke added to it. And then from there, look to how you'd pair it. So what do you want to eat with the cheese? And put that on the board, you can't really mess it up. But the rules of thumb are something crunchy, something sweet, something savory, something pickled.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, crunchy, sweet. Savory, pickled. Crunchy, sweet, savory, pickled.

[Kira James]

So having, like, olives, jam, crackers, and salami, you know, and you're good to go. Those are like the things that I look to. I don't have, like, set rules. I think that it can be whatever you want it to Be if it's for dessert, add some dessert items to the board. If it's for an appetizer, you know, have less than if it's for dinner, but you can't mess it up. And the biggest thing I would always recommend is ask your cheesemonger. If you don't have a cheese shop near you. Whole Foods, they have certified cheese professionals. They're actually one of the biggest supporters of the certification program that is offered. So a lot of their employees become certified. So if you don't see them back there, there's someone there. They can help you. So definitely just ask for support in that way or reach out to me.

[Alie Ward]

You're at Own youn Funk as well, right? People can follow you and see when you're doing events.

[Kira James]

Yes. Own your Funk is my business name.

[Alie Ward]

Is there a hard thing about cheese? What is the hardest part of your job? And I will ask you your favorite, but your least favorite thing about cheesemonger or your least favorite cheese?

[Kira James]

I don't have a least favorite cheese. I never, never could do that to a cheese. I think just the sanitization and the cleaning aspects of the industry. You know, cheese is alive, and so it's very vulnerable, and it needs a lot of tlc, especially if it's in your home refrigerator. You know, you have to take care of your cheeses people. If you don't, you'll see mold on them. The same thing goes when you work in a cheese shop. You have to. You have to take care of these cheeses every day and clean them and make sure every surface is always clean. And in between your cheeses, you have to clean your surfaces, clean your knives. So there's lots of sanitation that goes into cheese as a profession. So that's probably the least favorite thing that I have to do.

[Alie Ward]

Is it true that you should store your cheeses in the paper they came in and not a Ziploc? Is it better to let your cheese breathe so it doesn't get too moist?

[Kira James]

Definitely leave the cheese in the paper that it comes in and rewrap it if you can. If you get a piece of cheese that comes in plastic, then you might want to find new wrapping for that, in which case you can wrap it in. What I would suggest is wrapping in parchment paper and then putting that piece of cheese into a plastic bag. You don't have to seal the bag. You can just leave the bag opened. That just gives it a little bit extra protection, but you still want to have some airflow just so because, again, the cheese is alive. You don't want to suffocate. When things are wrapped in plastic, they're actually being suffocated. So we do it for aesthetic reasons more than the health of the cheese. So definitely want to get rid of the plastic if you can. And then number one will always be cheese paper. So if you want to buy cheese paper, you can buy it online. Formaticum is a great company that you can buy cheese paper from. There's other companies as well that you can find. Or Beeswax is another one. So Beeswax, the lines of Beeswax that you can buy are great for cheese just, well.

[Alie Ward]

Oh, like cloths that are almost impregnated with trees.

[Kira James]

Oh.

[Alie Ward]

And also great host gift.

[Kira James]

Definitely.

[Alie Ward]

If you gotta go to someone's house, you bring them some cheeses and some of those perf.

[Kira James]

Yes.

[Alie Ward]

I always am like, dude, what should I bring? And in some parts of the country it's like, of course you bring a host gift. And in others, like in California, people are like, what? You know, I brought some beer. You know, like, we're sweet, sweet idiots over here. But favorite thing about being a certified cheese professional and a pharmalogist, I think.

[Kira James]

The network of people. I think my favorite thing is that I get to be and work with some amazing people and some amazing animals and farms. And I'm really passionate about the land and the agricultural aspects of the industry. So to be able to know that my contributions are going towards the betterment of farms and animals and people make it all worth it. And then I get to know them as my family and friends. And so that just intensifies the feeling of joy and the happiness I get to feel when I'm selling the cheeses or when I'm tasting cheese with people for the first time. And they're like, wow, this is amazing. That just puts me over the moon. Nothing makes me more happy than just sharing the love of cheese with others.

[Alie Ward]

It puts you over the cheese. Yeah.

[Kira James]

The cheese moon.

[Alie Ward]

This has been a dream come true. Dream come true. Best from ologist in the biz.

[Kira James]

Thank you.

[Alie Ward]

And this couldn't not be a two parter. I mean, it's rare that I go into it being like, do you have several hours to talk to me about something?

[Kira James]

It's what I do, talk about cheese all day. So this was just a regular day in the office for me. I loved it.

[Alie Ward]

Okay, so we asked a salt of the earth person two episodes worth of cheesy questions. And thank you so much, Kira, for being here not only this week, but last as well. Thank you for letting me interview you for nearly two hours. You can follow Kira and learn more about her work linked in the show Notes or at our website alieward.com ologies from Ology or you can follow her via ownyourfunk.com and donations went to the Cheese Culture Coalition and Team Ups building schools in Kenya and we've got those linked in the show notes as well. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Bluesky. I'm Le Ward on both. If you need any kid friendly episodes you can check out Smallogies anywhere you get podcasts. Ologies Merch is available at ologiesmerch.com thank you patrons of the show for all of your great questions that you submitted via patreon.com Ologies Erin Talbert admins our Ologies Podcast Facebook group Avileen Malik makes our professional transcripts. Noel Dilworth arranges time as a scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing monger and director of all things Ologies. Editors are Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio and lead editor of this one with a sharp brain but a mild manner is Jake Chaffee. Nick Thorburn made the theme music and if you stick around to the very, very end of the episode, I tell you a secret and I will make this one short because I feel like my sides were long. But this is only you're only going to hear about this if you maybe live in la, but there was a bar called Shim Sham. My friend Aubry had her birthday party there and I went there and number one they have some sort of slushy situation with a beverage which is tasty. But the part that surprised me is Shim Sham has a photo booth and it is some of the best lighting I have ever seen anyone in. I don't know what kind of magic their photo booth has. I don't know how their ring light is set up. I don't understand what's going on. But we were like how does everyone look so glowing and flawless in this? And sure enough I looked it up and people are like, if you get yourself to Shim Sham, make sure to take some glam shots in that photo booth. I don't know how they do it. Shim Sham, if you're listening, email me what? What do you have going on? Okay, bye bye. Pachydermatology, Homeology, Cryptozoology, Litology, Nanotechnology, Meteorology, Coal Factology, Baphology, Serology, Cell terminology. Fold in the cheese.

[Unknown]

What does that mean?

[Alie Ward]

What does fold in the cheese mean summer heat.

[Unknown]

Gotcha melting. Time to feel joyfully chill with my Mochi ice cream. My mochi is little scoops of cool, creamy ice cream wrapped in soft, chewy dough. It comes in tons of amazing flavors like straight strawberry, mango and cookies and cream. Gluten free and just 70 calories a piece, Mymoji's the perfect snack for pool days, sunsets, and just soaking up the backyard vibes. When the heat's on, grab a purple box of Mymoji ice cream and treat yourself to a moment of joy.

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